PDA

View Full Version : enforced draw for late-finishing games



antichrist
08-04-2009, 04:42 PM
at a weekend a saw a new entity - an enforced draw. That is in an increment comp the arbitar could see that the players could not finish the game and was holding up the draw so he enforced a draw. He sort of forced them to agree. Is against the spirit of the game, etc, and the arbitar interfering when not called upon etc etc.

I have nothing against the arbitar and respect him for doing so, but it does bring up the issue of increment chess wrecking timetable if left to their pure finality. I don't think that it is proper to interfere in games,strictly speaking.

If there is something wrong in the format then so be it. Fix the format (by guillotine) not the participants.

eclectic
08-04-2009, 05:12 PM
the compromise might be to only have the increment for so many moves

eg

once each player has made 120 moves in a 90 30 game then no more time is added

of course this would imply the dgt has a move counter.

Kevin Bonham
08-04-2009, 08:20 PM
at a weekend a saw a new entity - an enforced draw. That is in an increment comp the arbitar could see that the players could not finish the game and was holding up the draw so he enforced a draw. He sort of forced them to agree. Is against the spirit of the game, etc, and the arbitar interfering when not called upon etc etc.


the compromise might be to only have the increment for so many moves

Urgh. I'm hoping there's more to it than AC says because if not, this all reminds me of the adjudication-by-Fritz nonsense that Phil Donnelly proposed for overtime games in the 2006 Tas Champs, and when advised that the ACF wouldn't rate such a farce he switched to taking off the increment instead, although that was never actually needed in the event.

Taking off the increment isn't anywhere near as bad as adjudication but the problem with it is that it brings Article 10.2 back into play, and one useful purpose of increments is to avoid said Article. While 10.2 wouldn't come up very often under such a proposal, the cases where it might come up could be difficult ones, and with guillotine time controls so much rarer nowadays, the chance of the arbiter misunderstanding the rule and getting it wrong becomes higher.

Organisers should either:

* ensure games do not hold up the next round by choosing a short increment or long session such that even if a game goes, say, 150 moves, the next round isn't delayed; or

* ensure the tournament schedule is flexible so that if a game delays the start of the next round, it does not matter, and note that rounds may start late due to late finishes.

I'd be interested to know more details about the situation AC describes - what was the time control, how many moves had been made, how strong were the players, what was the position on the board like (etc).

In unrated junior chess guillotine games I will frequently declare draws if the player with the superior position clearly has no idea how to win (eg K+Q vs K if they are just checking over and over with Q and never moving K). But that's to save the defender from an unfair loss of time given that weak juniors don't know about claiming draws by 10.2.

Rincewind
08-04-2009, 08:28 PM
In unrated junior chess guillotine games I will frequently declare draws if the player with the superior position clearly has no idea how to win (eg K+Q vs K if they are just checking over and over with Q and never moving K). But that's to save the defender from an unfair loss of time given that weak juniors don't know about claiming draws by 10.2.

I've heard of it happening in rated junior games but usually at a low level (well below 1000 ACF equivalent) and again when there is an endgame position in which the likelihood of any result (left to the players' own devices) is not high. These games may also be played without a clock.

Kevin Bonham
08-04-2009, 09:40 PM
I think if both players are juniors who are stumbling around hopelessly there is scope for the arbiter to strongly suggest to them that agreeing a draw is a good idea. Whether this should ever be enforced in a rated game is a more difficult question. If the increment is small enough that the players are not scoring, then a possible shortcut is for the arbiter to bend the 50 move rule a little by imposing it without requiring a claim.

Ian Rout
08-04-2009, 09:54 PM
A few more facts would be useful. Was this a position where a result was realistically possible or just one where the players were persisting in moving aimlessly through either not realising it was drawn, thinking they were being really hilarious, or even to lobby for guillotine finishes? Did the arbiter actually "enforce" a draw or merely suggest it?

I play a fair few tournaments and have never seen this. It seems a bit of a coincidence that it happened when AC was present. Was it a GP event or just some old duffers in the pub? Did it happen recently or years ago?

eclectic
08-04-2009, 09:56 PM
it would be safe to say the incriminating post is part of ac's no increment|guillotine finish agenda ;)

CameronD
09-04-2009, 07:54 AM
In extreme circumstances, couldnt thet just start the next round with both players to start there next game 10 minutes after their game is completed. For draw purposes, the arbiter could record the game as a draw to get the event moving near schedule.

antichrist
09-04-2009, 02:26 PM
It was at the comp below, it may have been in fun section I don't know, I don't know if they even had the fun section. If properly played I think the game would have been a draw, but at that low level games are not necessarily properly played so a result may occur.

And I was ahead a mile in the last game in position and time, but a band started up in the forecourt right next to us, I lost concentration just when they started and missed a very simple siingle move mate. Otherwise I would have won my rating group, 4.5/7. If my memory is right.
______________________________________________


1st Broadbeach Mall Open Chess Tournament 2009
Rapid chess tourney at Victoria Square
On Broadbeach Mall / Open to all but limited to 60 players / 2 groups: Rated and Fun/unrated
In the heart of Broadbeach live games with Monroi at www.kingsofchess.biz: Starts sharp at 10 am and finishing 4 pm on Sunday, 05 April 2009 * Weather condition applies / more info visit; www.kingsofchess.biz or ring Mobile 0414 673 228
15 minutes + 5 seconds per move / 7 rounds Fisher system
Prizes: 1st $200 2nd $150 3rd $100 Fun group: 1st , 2nd and 3rd Medals & chessboards
Group prizes $25 each and many non cash prizes
Contact: Amir Karibasic (Kings of chess club) Ph 07 55785872 Fax 07 55786171
Address: PO Box 5253, Super Q Centre, Mermaid Waters QLD 4218
Visit our website: www.kingsofchess.biz email: doors113@bigpond.com
Entry fees: Flat for all $20 (late fees $10 if paid on the day) Payment options:
ENTRY FORM: Circle: Rated or Fun-unrated 1.Cash or Cheque payable to Kings of chess
Name: ________________________________ 2.Credit Card / Visa or Master card:
Address:__________________________________________ _ Expiry date: ___/___ Amount $_____
Phone:___________________ Date of birth:____________ Credit Card No.:______/______/______/______
Email:________________________________________ 3. Direct Deposit to: Kings of chess
Signature:____________________________ Bendigo Bank BSB:633-000 Account No.134763028