PDA

View Full Version : Most aggressive opening for black V d4.



Paul Cavezza
01-04-2009, 09:42 PM
Hi all,

Having realised i am very likely rubbish with the king's indian, especially if my opponent plays randomly to a certain extent and not the book moves, i'm looking to learn something new. I'm not a great positional or pawn structure type player, so I don't really love the closed positions (or should weak pawn players prefer the closed ones?:rolleyes: :) ). I'm decent tactically and have time to study an opening in depth so i'm looking for something that will really crush weaker players if it's not played against correctly.

Any tips?

Thanks,
Paul

PS. Had the nimzo suggested to me as I apparently like to build slowly.. which may be why my king's indian reeks.
PPS. Also, i'd like to stay away from any move which will require me to learn 4000 openings. Something that has limited responses would be nice..

eclectic
01-04-2009, 09:48 PM
there is debate here as to whether this is (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=8256)

;)

Desmond
01-04-2009, 10:59 PM
You might like the Benko. It's aggressive, and has a sound strategic basis.

Paul Cavezza
01-04-2009, 11:46 PM
yeah benko looks very interesting early on... here's a nice one...

Georgiev V Rogers
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1117551

will look into it

Denis_Jessop
02-04-2009, 12:21 PM
Hi all,

Having realised i am very likely rubbish with the king's indian, especially if my opponent plays randomly to a certain extent and not the book moves, i'm looking to learn something new. I'm not a great positional or pawn structure type player, so I don't really love the closed positions (or should weak pawn players prefer the closed ones?:rolleyes: :) ). I'm decent tactically and have time to study an opening in depth so i'm looking for something that will really crush weaker players if it's not played against correctly.

Any tips?

Thanks,
Paul


PS. Had the nimzo suggested to me as I apparently like to build slowly.. which may be why my king's indian reeks.
PPS. Also, i'd like to stay away from any move which will require me to learn 4000 openings. Something that has limited responses would be nice..

I don't know what your strength is but your comment emphasises a point I always make, namely that before getting deeply into particular openings one needs to know something about opening theory and principles in general. Then if one's opponent starts playing random moves that aren't in "the book" and so probably weaker than those that are, you will be able to counter them effectively by relying on general principles. (This is my chance once again to mention that one of the main lines still current against the Latvian Gambit was worked out over the board by Smyslov years ago who hadn't seen the opening before then.)

Moreover, when playing a particular opening, it is essential to know what the aims and principles of that opening are. If they are known, one's general understanding of that opening will allow one to play it effectively against non-book moves.

The King's Indian can be susceptible to dangerous attacks by White but there are others that are not perhaps as risky. I wouldn't go for the Benko myself as it is limited and rather quirky. The Nimzo-Indian, the Grunfeld, Queen's Indian and the various lines in the Queen's Gambit are all worth a look and in my opinion are much better propositions than the Benko. There is also the Benoni which can be a lot of fun if you like living dangerously or even the Dutch.

DJ

PS I notice that your query asks about the most aggressive opening against d4 and that you are apparently a player who likes to build slowly. Those two things are almost mutually exclusive. No immediately aggressive defence to d4 will allow a slow build up nor will one to e4 for that matter. On the other hand an opening that appears at first to be slow and even passive can lead to aggression later depending on how the game develops.

Paul Cavezza
02-04-2009, 12:39 PM
thanks for your reply.
I do understand the general principles of the king's indian and I feel comfortable with the tactics... however when opposition players don't castle kingside early in the game I struggle to understand black's plan.. especially if white plays g4 (ok g4 you play h5 and try to attack down the H file.. but if he hasn't castled it's much more likely he'll get the h file:>!) or h4 or something like that. I also struggle when white doesn't play e4 and plays a move like e3 (makes it difficult to play e5, and therefore the f pawn also). Also! all the book sequences involve white wasting a hell of a lot of time with things like f3 f5, be3 f4, bf2 g4 and things which just seem to give black a lot of time. I can play well against those "book moves" as they seem to play into black's plan and give him tempi to push his kingside pawns. I understand the point of having the Bishop on that diagonal but it's something a weaker player wouldn't naturally do.

Saragossa
02-04-2009, 02:23 PM
The Benoni is pretty sharp but a fair amount of theory will have to be studied if you want to get the max from somebodies slip up. With that said near every opening can be aggresive if you seek it but ultimately you will have to play the position, don't do anything that looks unnatural for the position you are in.

Basil
02-04-2009, 03:10 PM
1... chuck board over head is quite an aggressive response

Paul Cavezza
02-04-2009, 07:36 PM
ah!! and here i was trying 1. kick under the table... inaccurate!

Davidflude
02-04-2009, 07:43 PM
I play the Benoni myself. It works great in correspondence largely because against one critical line black can sac a pawn and draw the ending. however over the board this is just too painfull.

Furthermore there are some lines which are shared with the king's Indian so if you dislike the king's Indian then the Benoni is not a good choice.

A lot depends on your other openings. If you play the French then answer

1. d4 with e6. Then if white plays 2.c4 you can play dutch, Benoni or even queens gambit

Davidflude
02-04-2009, 07:46 PM
If you have been playing King's Indian Benoni is a good choice. If white messes around you can have great fun on the queenside. However it is a high risk high reward opening.

eclectic
02-04-2009, 07:51 PM
Don't give me that fludey! You are totally out of character! You are meant to recommend the charlick aka englund gambit! :owned: ;)

Davidflude
02-04-2009, 09:01 PM
The Englund gambit is very tricky but if white reads the last chapters of the book by Stefan Bucker he keeps the advantage. Marcus Raine did that to me.

Also white can play

1.d4 e5 2.e4 with some form of the open game which is not what i would want to face.

On the other hand the Englund gambit is fun at fast time controls.

P.S. I own Grob's book on the opening which is rare.

Capablanca-Fan
03-04-2009, 08:42 AM
I wouldn't touch the Englund. White can just give the P back and leave Black misplaced, e.g.

1. d4 e5 2. dxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 Qe7 4. Nc3 [4. Bf4 Qb4+ 5. Bd2 Qxb2 6. Nc3! also gives White strong play, with Black looking like he's grabbed a poisoned P but with equal material] 4... Nxe5 5. e4 which is like an excellent Scotch for White, with Black's Q on a crappy square.

ER
03-04-2009, 08:53 AM
Years ago, David Hacche, one of the strongest Victorian players and a fine exponent of 1.d4 told me something along the lines of:
"You jus't can't try funny stuff against a strong Queen's Pawn player! Instead of trying to surprise them with gambits etc, you better try to understand the subtleties of 1.d4. You will end up learning good chess in the end!
As far as the Englund thingy is concerned I have played it in tournaments and have scored some surprise wins with it, having lost quite a few vs stronger opposition! In final analysis Jono is, as usual, correct: Against stronger players you will simply be outplayed!

Davidflude
03-04-2009, 11:44 AM
I wouldn't touch the Englund. White can just give the P back and leave Black misplaced, e.g.

1. d4 e5 2. dxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 Qe7 4. Nc3 [4. Bf4 Qb4+ 5. Bd2 Qxb2 6. Nc3! also gives White strong play, with Black looking like he's grabbed a poisoned P but with equal material] 4... Nxe5 5. e4 which is like an excellent Scotch for White, with Black's Q on a crappy square.

That is the line which breaks the heart of the gambiteers.

Davidflude
03-04-2009, 11:57 AM
Years ago, David Hacche, one of the strongest Victorian players and a fine exponent of 1.d4 told me something along the lines of:
"You jus't can't try funny stuff against a strong Queen's Pawn player! Instead of trying to surprise them with gambits etc, you better try to understand the subtleties of 1.d4. You will end up learning good chess in the end!
As far as the Englund thingy is concerned I have played it in tournaments and have scored some surprise wins with it, having lost quite a few vs stronger opposition! In final analysis Jono is, as usual, correct: Against stronger players you will simply be outplayed!

If you are in the club tonight I will show you some schlock/horror ideas to use.
At your level they will work well.

a) a bonzer line against 1) g4 black gets a big edge

b) not one but two lines against 1.f4 one positional one wild and woolly.

c) a super sneaky line against 1.b4

Capablanca-Fan
03-04-2009, 12:31 PM
That is the line which breaks the heart of the gambiteers.
Thanx David. It's often the case that gambiteers' hearts are broken by returning the gambit material with advantage, cf. Lasker's defence against the Evans (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109166), or better still Botteril's line (which I played in the NZ Champs (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1450763)).

Not with the King's Gambit in my view though. Returning the P gives White chances on the f-file, so I prefer to cement the Pf4 with 3... g5.


a) a bonzer line against 1) g4 black gets a big edge
Romford Gambit? I thought Keene gave Basman's Grob a good flattening with a more orthodox line (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1026281) (and Basman plays 2. h3 anyway).

In 1991/2, Anthony Ker played all 11 games in the NZ champs with the Grob or Grob reversed, and was fortunate to score 50%, although he would have been one of the favorites to win the title.


c) a super sneaky line against 1.b4
Always useful to have up your sleeve: surprise the surpriser. Hilton Bennett played an unusual line of that against me once (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1450817).

eclectic
03-04-2009, 12:55 PM
the only time the englund is dangerous is when it's robert englund playing freddie kreuger in nightmare on elm street! :owned:

ER
03-04-2009, 01:50 PM
If you are in the club tonight I will show you some schlock/horror ideas to use.
At your level they will work well.

a) a bonzer line against 1) g4 black gets a big edge

b) not one but two lines against 1.f4 one positional one wild and woolly.

c) a super sneaky line against 1.b4

Lol ok David I can't promise but I will try to make it! Always delighted to go through those surrealistic yet very interesting lines with you! :)

Davidflude
03-04-2009, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=Jono]Thanx David. It's often the case that gambiteers' hearts are broken by returning the gambit material with advantage, cf. Lasker's defence against the Evans (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109166), or better still Botteril's line (which I played in the NZ Champs (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1450763)).

I think that the "Stoneware Defence" is the line to play against the Evans. Black holds the extra pawn and white has inadequate compensation.

Not with the King's Gambit in my view though. Returning the P gives White chances on the f-file, so I prefer to cement the Pf4 with 3... g5.

The Kieseritzy is in my opinion a really good line to play against the Knights gambit. White is better if he knows the very latest theory but it is very difficult for both players.

I would play it from both sides in correspondence.

fritz
03-04-2009, 06:53 PM
thanks for your reply.
I do understand the general principles of the king's indian and I feel comfortable with the tactics... however when opposition players don't castle kingside early in the game I struggle to understand black's plan.. especially if white plays g4 (ok g4 you play h5 and try to attack down the H file.. but if he hasn't castled it's much more likely he'll get the h file:>!) or h4 or something like that. I also struggle when white doesn't play e4 and plays a move like e3 (makes it difficult to play e5, and therefore the f pawn also). Also! all the book sequences involve white wasting a hell of a lot of time with things like f3 f5, be3 f4, bf2 g4 and things which just seem to give black a lot of time. I can play well against those "book moves" as they seem to play into black's plan and give him tempi to push his kingside pawns. I understand the point of having the Bishop on that diagonal but it's something a weaker player wouldn't naturally do.

what is your level, first.

Paul Cavezza
04-04-2009, 12:27 AM
Well am just finishing my first tournament. I'd say around 1500 but I don't have trouble so much with the stronger players who play theory but with the random stuff. Am improving quickly I believe.. .so we'll see in 6 months.

Had no trouble matching it with 1800+ players with the KI, but throw in an h4 or e3 or be3 for white and i'm still nervy. I think i'm going to stick with it actually... It takes so much time to invest in an opening and every day i feel i understand it better.

I actually think my issue is one common to a lot of people just starting out. I only know 4 or 5 openings so a lot of situations seem foreign to me. I looked at the bayonet attack and some other lines... early g2-g4 theory today i feel like i understand a lot more about the potential threats and general ideas once the center becomes locked...

Paul Cavezza
05-04-2009, 05:18 AM
King's indian again: so here's one type of thing I have problems with. I am running out of moves to play... I can't push the f pawn until he commits to castle kingside, or i can, but I risk ending up with rooks on G & H pointing at my king, so i'm just waiting... waiting... waiting for him to castle... and if he doesn't... If he just improves his position... I have to commit to say... pushing the F pawn and weakening my king's position after I run out of decent waiting moves...

maybe I can play Nc5 here but after Qc2 I have the same problem... no building moves to play that don't totally commit me to something.. while he can just build with a3, Rb1, b4 and get a massive lead on the queenside which you obviously can't afford to give.


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.d5 a5 8.h3 Na6 9.Be3 b6 10.Qd2

Desmond
05-04-2009, 07:44 AM
I think the way to exploit the early 7.d5 by white is to put your queen's knight on c5 as soon as possible. Normally white waits for ...Nc6 in order to play d5 with tempo. 10...Nc5 looks fine for you here, leaving white with the poor choice of allowing the knight to persist on c5 attacking e4, or exchanging it for his beautiful dark-squared bishop and leaving holes for later on eg...Nf6-h5-f4.

ElmirGuseinov
16-04-2009, 09:31 PM
Benko and Benoni.
Very similar structures,sharp,agressive.

Also very important point that you have to surprise your opponent.Like when you play only Benko and there are 100 games of yours in the bases - then anybody can prepare and chose a safe line, killing all the agression :)
So, need to have some deep analyzed sidelines for rare use.

ElmirGuseinov
16-04-2009, 09:35 PM
Well am just finishing my first tournament. I'd say around 1500 but I don't have trouble so much with the stronger players who play theory but with the random stuff. Am improving quickly I believe.. .so we'll see in 6 months.

Had no trouble matching it with 1800+ players with the KI, but throw in an h4 or e3 or be3 for white and i'm still nervy. I think i'm going to stick with it actually... It takes so much time to invest in an opening and every day i feel i understand it better.

I actually think my issue is one common to a lot of people just starting out. I only know 4 or 5 openings so a lot of situations seem foreign to me. I looked at the bayonet attack and some other lines... early g2-g4 theory today i feel like i understand a lot more about the potential threats and general ideas once the center becomes locked...


You r just starting chess, so 4-5 openings is more than enough!
I wouldnt suggest KID,its quite complicated for understanding opening with wide theory and hundreds of positional ideas.I played it all my youth, and maybe it was a mistake.I had some fine wins,but sometimes I was losing to much weaker opponents,and the main thing was I couldnt feel this opening and remember all the theory even when I reached master level.
Play something simple! Queens Gambit or Tarrash!
Learn the basics step by step, and after widen your opening repertoire.

Taigastyle
17-04-2009, 12:21 AM
The Englund gambit is very tricky but if white reads the last chapters of the book by Stefan Bucker he keeps the advantage. Marcus Raine did that to me.

Also white can play

1.d4 e5 2.e4 with some form of the open game which is not what i would want to face.

On the other hand the Englund gambit is fun at fast time controls.

P.S. I own Grob's book on the opening which is rare.


does that mean you would never play e5 against 1.e4?

Dutch is great against D4, personally I dont know anything about it and still end up not too closed as black tends to get.

Davidflude
17-04-2009, 11:44 AM
does that mean you would never play e5 against 1.e4?



Quite right I only play 1..e5 in correspondence and then very rarely.

I played an obscure gambit line of the Spanish as black for about twelve months in both correspondence and over the board.

However it ceased to be a surprise weapon over the board and in correspondence a white player found an improvement which wrecked the line.
In correspondence once a line is busted in one of your games you cannot risk it as tour opponents will probably find it on their database.

Saragossa
21-04-2009, 05:28 PM
1. e4 e5?? it can't be good except in the Russian game where black has a chance to equalise I used to play it but then I wised up seeing that most people (at interschool levels anyway) play either ...e5 or ...c5 to e4 so people are too prepared for them I avoid this at many costs. KID, benoni, benko etc can all be good but I seriously recccomend that you don't over look symetrical responses for instance the slav can go off! if black wants it too (you will also have to put up with the occasional exchange slav:P )

Nicholas D-C
21-04-2009, 10:33 PM
If you have time to study opening theory, why not just study the King's Indian more? You know the King's Indian the best it seems. Random moves in the opening are likely to lead to disadvantage, because they aren't related to a specific plan. There will always be situations when your opponent plays something unusual that you've never seen before, whichever opening you play. That's just chess.

Capablanca-Fan
21-04-2009, 11:37 PM
1. e4 e5?? it can't be good except in the Russian game where black has a chance to equalise I used to play it but then I wised up seeing that most people ...
That's a very categorical statement, considering that some of the greatest players of all time regularly played 1.e4 e5, and not just the Russian (Petrov).

Saragossa
22-04-2009, 08:00 PM
That's a very categorical statement, considering that some of the greatest players of all time regularly played 1.e4 e5, and not just the Russian (Petrov).

Yeah I regularly exaggerate this point I know it can't be too bad.

Nicholas D-C
23-04-2009, 10:56 AM
The King's Indian is the most aggressive, followed by the Benko. Others are mostly positional struggles.

aroniyang
02-06-2009, 08:36 PM
well the benko is actually more like a positional pawn sacrifice as even if black is a pawn down he often has a better endgame...

the benoni and some slav variations are pretty sharp too