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Garvinator
20-11-2007, 12:21 PM
The match might be dead in the water before it even begins.


Men’s World Championship

Negotiations are ongoing between Anand and Kramnik for the World Championship match next year. Deputy President of FIDE, Makropoulos briefed the board about the status of negotiations. He said that Anand had put forward number of demands before he would sign a contract to play the match. Makropoulos said that he felt all of Anand’s demands could be accommodated except one. Anand wants to restore the right of the champion to claim victory if the match ends in a tie. Makropoulos said FIDE should oppose this and the Executive Board agreed. However the delegate from India then spoke and said that there was another sticking point not mentioned by Deputy President: Anand is insisting that the match be played at a “neutral venue.” The Executive Board did not discuss this issue because of the sensitivity of ongoing negotiations.

And it is clear why. This is a trickier issue than it seems. Prior to the World Championship tournament in Mexico City, FIDE had signed a contract with a German company, Universal Events Productions (UEP), to sponsor the 2008 World Championship Match. It was agreed that this match would be played in Germany. It appears that Anand does not regard Germany as a “neutral venue” because Kramnik’s manager, Karsten Henzel, is a German citizen and has close relations with UEP. Also there are rumors that UEP gave Kramnik “extra inducements” to play the match in Germany. This issue is a potential showstopper.

Capablanca-Fan
20-11-2007, 01:14 PM
Men’s World Championship
When did this begin? I've never heard of such a thing before. So who is fighting for the World Championship, the title that began with Steinitz?

Garvinator
20-11-2007, 05:07 PM
When did this begin? I've never heard of such a thing before. So who is fighting for the World Championship, the title that began with Steinitz?
It is the same championship. I thought you would be aware of the history. My understanding is that it was the Mens championship for a long time, until Susan Polgar qualified.

Bill Gletsos
20-11-2007, 05:37 PM
I think you will find that the FIDE website does not refer to it as the Men's World Championship.

The wording quoted by Garvin appears on Susan Polgar's site in a report by FIDE Vice President Bill Kelleher.

Capablanca-Fan
20-11-2007, 06:07 PM
I think you will find that the FIDE website does not refer to it as the Men's World Championship.

The wording quoted by Garvin appears on Susan Polgar's site in a report by FIDE Vice President Bill Kelleher.
And I am a student of chess history, and Steinitz, Lasker, ... Kasparov, Kramnik never claimed to be 'Men's World Champion' but 'World Champion'. This would be the title that Judit Polgár would want to fight for.

Bill Gletsos
20-11-2007, 06:47 PM
And I am a student of chess history, and Steinitz, Lasker, ... Kasparov, Kramnik never claimed to be 'Men's World Champion' but 'World Champion'. This would be the title that Judit Polgár would want to fight for.So what, that has nothing to do with my post.

The fact that some guy who just happens to be a FIDE VP calls it the Men's World Championship is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that the FIDE website does not refer to it as the Men's World Championship. There they refer to it simply as the World Championship.

Capablanca-Fan
20-11-2007, 07:04 PM
So what, that has nothing to do with my post.
OK, shouldn't have quoted it. I had/have no disagreement with what you said.

Bill Gletsos
20-11-2007, 07:10 PM
OK, shouldn't have quoted it. I had/have no disagreement with what you said.Glad we sorted that out. ;)

I agree with what you said as a stand alone comment.

Kevin Bonham
20-11-2007, 07:56 PM
FIDE will look extremely silly if they do not give in to Anand's demand regarding drawing rights, given that Anand is now the pretty-much-undisputed world champion and that that clause was traditional for so long among previous world champions (even though most of those matches were much longer.)

Maybe FIDE should cave in on that one and then Anand can look silly should he forfeit his title over where the match is played.

If FIDE were to end up stripping Anand of his title over this then I would go back to regarding FIDE as unfit to award the title and would therefore regard Anand as the World Champion, as I did with Kasparov and Kramnik throughout their reigns.

Shame that proposal for everything to do with the World Championship being outsourced hasn't got anywhere lately. FIDE are not to be trusted with it.

Bill Gletsos
20-11-2007, 08:00 PM
FIDE will look extremely silly if they do not give in to Anand's demand regarding drawing rights, given that Anand is now the pretty-much-undisputed world champion and that that clause was traditional for so long among previous world champions (even though most of those matches were much longer.)There were no draw odds in the Kramnik-Topalov match.

Also there are no draw odds in favour of the champion in the World Championship going forward into 2008 and beyond.

Kevin Bonham
20-11-2007, 08:07 PM
There were no draw odds in the Kramnik-Topalov match.

That was because Topalov was able to claim himself to be a world champion of a sort, albeit a FIDE sort. The reunification was an unprecedented situation; the situation now is more like what used to happen when a single clear champion would face challengers.


Also there are no draw odds in favour of the champion in the World Championship going forward into 2008 and beyond.

Was this explicit in the documentation of the future matches before Anand won the 2007 event?

(If so, Anand's the silly one and my post above is nonsense.)

Bill Gletsos
20-11-2007, 08:22 PM
Was this explicit in the documentation of the future matches before Anand won the 2007 event?As far as I know, yes it was.

Kevin Bonham
20-11-2007, 08:26 PM
As far as I know, yes it was.

I wondered about it at the time and assumed there would not be draw odds, but don't remember seeing anything explicit. Would be interesting to know for sure, or if there were any regs drawn up in advance stipulating tiebreaks etc.

Garvinator
20-11-2007, 10:12 PM
It sounds like regulations are still up in the air. Of course the smart thing to do would have been to set out the regulations for the Kramnik v Mexico winner before Mexico started to stop all of this sort of stuff and then just say to all those that bid for the match that they will be played under these conditions.

I am aware that there was a possibility of a Topalov v Kramnik match and these conditions could have been worked out separately, or in fact using the same conditions as what is now Anand v Kramnik.

Of course it is fide after all ;) :P

Bill Gletsos
19-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Agreement between the parties has been reached and the match will take place October 11 - October 30 2008 in Bonn Germany.

If there is a tie at the end of the 12 game match there will be a tie-break.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4334

Garrett
20-12-2007, 06:49 AM
FIDE will look extremely silly if they do not give in to Anand's demand regarding drawing rights, given that Anand is now the pretty-much-undisputed world champion

I don't think Anand is undisputed world champion. I could be wrong, but I don't recall him beating Kramnik in a match.

If he beats Kramnik in a match then I will consider him indisputable world champion.

Kevin Bonham
20-12-2007, 06:30 PM
I don't think Anand is undisputed world champion. I could be wrong, but I don't recall him beating Kramnik in a match.

If he beats Kramnik in a match then I will consider him indisputable world champion.

I said "pretty-much-undisputed". There will probably always be at least one person who thinks Bobby Fischer is still world champion, at least until Bobby Fischer passes from this planet. There will probably always be people who only consider a world title legitimate if it is played over 976 games on neutral soil with platinum pieces, draw odds and a time control of one move every fifteen weeks. And there will probably always be people who think a person can participate in a tournament which he agrees is the World Championship, fail to win it and still be considered the World Champion. :D

I greatly prefer matches as a way of deciding the title too. However, given that Kramnik agreed the tournament would be for the world title, and that he would not be world champion if he did not win it, it is clear that not even Kramnik disputes that Anand is now world champion.

Denis_Jessop
20-12-2007, 07:28 PM
If this becomes an issue, I can see no reason why FIDE could not establish two titles - a World Matchplay Champion and a World Tournament Champion.

This sort of thing is done in other sports.

For example, in road cycling there is a World Championship race held late in the season that is contested by national, not trade teams, and is a one-day race over about 250km. The winner is entitled to wear a World Champion's jersey in the following season. Then there is also the UCI (=FIDE) trophy that is won on a system of points gained in major road races throughout the season. Each title is highly prized though no rider would seriously claim to be absolutely the best in the World merely by winning the one-day World Championship race. The UCI tour winner has a fair claim to that though I doubt if even he would do so. The 2007 winner of the UCI trophy was Cadel Evans.

Golf has something similar with 4 acknowledged Major Tournaments and a World Matchplay Championship.

DJ

Denis_Jessop
20-12-2007, 10:05 PM
I think that this Press release must have gone up on the FIDE web site since the above posts (?)


Press Release

December 19, 2007

World Chess Championship to be held in Germany:
Viswanathan Anand and Vladimir Kramnik battle for the highest chess title in October 2008

· When: From October 11 – 30, 2008
· Where: Art and Exhibition Hall of the Federal Republic of Germany in Bonn
· Overall Prize fund: 1,5 Million Euro
· Patron: German Finance Minister Peer Steinbruck
· Main sponsor: Evonik Industries AG

Dortmund. The World Chess Championship will be held from October 11 to 30, 2008 in the Art and Exhibition Hall of the Federal Republic of Germany in Bonn, between Viswanathan Anand (India) and Vladimir Kramnik (Russia).

The match will consist of twelve games, played under classical time controls, in the period from October 11 to October 28, 2008. If there is a tie at the end of these games a tiebreak will be played on October 30, 2008. The prize fund, which will be split equally between the players, is 1,5 million Euro (approximately 2,1 million US Dollars) including taxes and FIDE licensee fees.

Viswanathan Anand (37) and Vladimir Kramnik (32) are the two outstanding personalities in chess today. The world championship match between them is keenly anticipated by chess fans all over the world. It is part of a 120-year tradition of chess history, which includes matches like Capablanca-Alekhine, Fischer-Spassky, Kasparov-Karpov and Kramnik-Topalov.

The reigning and undisputed World Champion Anand won his title in September 2007 at the World Championship tournament in Mexico City. Kramnik, who was undefeated in his three world championship matches, became second in this double round robin event.

The World Chess Championship 2008 takes place under the patronage of the German Finance Minister Peer Steinbruck, who is himself an enthusiastic and ambitious chess player.

The main sponsor of the World Championship is Evonik Industries. This industrial enterprise is located in Essen, Germany, and was the exclusive sponsor of the 2006 World Chess Challenge between Vladimir Kramnik and the chess program Deep Fritz.

The World Chess Championship 2008 in Bonn will be organized with the full cooperation of the World Chess Federation FIDE and its President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov. FIDE has its main office in Athens, Greece, and is the head of 161 national chess federations with 40 million active chess players, making it one of the world’s largest sporting organizations.

The organizer of the World Championship 2008 is Universal Event Promotion (UEP), which is located in Dortmund (Germany) and has received all rights for the event from FIDE. UEP staged the World Chess Challenge between Vladimir Kramnik and the chess program Deep Fritz in 2006, an event that drew worldwide media attention and was very successfully commercialised.

Official World Championship web site of the organizer:

www.uep-worldchess.com

Press contact:

Rolf Behovits
Universal Event Promotion
Press Officer
Tel.: +49-170-2317139
Email: rolf.behovits@uep-worldchess.com

DJ

Kevin Bonham
20-12-2007, 11:39 PM
Viswanathan Anand (37) and Vladimir Kramnik (32) are the two outstanding personalities in chess today.

The two outstanding players perhaps, but the two outstanding personalities? Something lost in translation I suspect. :lol:

Interesting that Anand has folded on draw odds and is also happy to play the match in Germany despite that being almost home ground for Kramnik.


If this becomes an issue, I can see no reason why FIDE could not establish two titles - a World Matchplay Champion and a World Tournament Champion.

Probably Kramnik is one player who presents a strong case for such a division. Some players can be very hard to beat in matchplay but not that forceful when it comes to crushing the (relative) bunnies in eight-player round robins.

Capablanca-Fan
21-12-2007, 01:57 AM
I said "pretty-much-undisputed". There will probably always be at least one person who thinks Bobby Fischer is still world champion, at least until Bobby Fischer passes from this planet. There will probably always be people who only consider a world title legitimate if it is played over 976 games on neutral soil with platinum pieces, draw odds and a time control of one move every fifteen weeks.
I agree with Garrett though. Kramnik is an active player, not at all like Fischer, so I will also recognize that he is no longer world champ when someone can beat him in a match.


And there will probably always be people who think a person can participate in a tournament which he agrees is the World Championship, fail to win it and still be considered the World Champion. :D
Ah, but before Linares 1994, Kaspy said that this would be the proof of who the real world champ was, him or the official FIDE champ Karpov. But Karpov had one of the most brilliant tournament victories of all time.


I greatly prefer matches as a way of deciding the title too. However, given that Kramnik agreed the tournament would be for the world title, and that he would not be world champion if he did not win it, it is clear that not even Kramnik disputes that Anand is now world champion.
Seems like an agreement under duress. A tournament deciding the world champion was reasonable in 1948, since the previous champ had died, and the only surviving ex-champ had not been champ for 11 years.

Kevin Bonham
21-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Ah, but before Linares 1994, Kaspy said that this would be the proof of who the real world champ was, him or the official FIDE champ Karpov. But Karpov had one of the most brilliant tournament victories of all time.

That was just trash-talking by Kasparov. I am not aware of any evidence that he actually considered Linares to be the World Championship, as opposed to making a false assumption about the upcoming result as a basis for a claim that it would provide further evidence of his superiority.


Seems like an agreement under duress.

It's true that FIDE had made it impossible to unify the world title under different conditions by (a) dethroning Kasparov from its title for reasons entirely unrelated to chess (as a result of FIDE overcommitting itself financially) and (b) running a series of so-called world titles that were mickey-mouse in their format, their entry list or both. However, I don't see any objective basis for why a match is a better test of who should be World Champion. On the one hand, it's satisfying to have the world title determined by someone beating the incumbent, but on another, is it really right that someone should be world champion just because they can hold their own in a match against anyone, even if their style is too drawish to dominate elite round-robins? In my view, it's enough that Kramnik agreed to participate in a credible test of skill at the highest level, that he agreed was for the title.

What will be interesting is if Kramnik wins the match against Anand next year and then holds the title in matchplay for a considerable time. If this happens, will chess historians become inclined to downplay Anand's current title as not a real one?

Garvinator
21-12-2007, 12:31 PM
In my view, it's enough that Kramnik agreed to participate in a credible test of skill at the highest level, that he agreed was for the title.
I wonder if he would have made such an agreement if he did not already have the match arranged with either the winner of Mexico or Topalov.

Kramnik did not play in San Luis when Fide decreed that San Luis was for all the chocolates.

Denis_Jessop
21-12-2007, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
If this becomes an issue, I can see no reason why FIDE could not establish two titles - a World Matchplay Champion and a World Tournament Champion.

Probably Kramnik is one player who presents a strong case for such a division. Some players can be very hard to beat in matchplay but not that forceful when it comes to crushing the (relative) bunnies in eight-player round robins.

And Botvinnik was the opposite as he had a fearsome reputation in tournaments but was less certain in matches.

DJ

guncha
21-12-2007, 07:19 PM
Probably Kramnik is one player who presents a strong case for such a division. Some players can be very hard to beat in matchplay but not that forceful when it comes to crushing the (relative) bunnies in eight-player round robins.
I don't think Kramnik represents this division. He is not worse than Anand in round robin tournaments.

Look at recent Tal tournament where Kramnik dominated like Kasparov in his best years. Kramnik won Dortmund and Monaco also this year. He didn't win Mexico and Corus only. Kramnik can produce excellent results in round robin tournaments.

Anand won Linares (Kramnik didn't play) and Mexico. Anand was behind Kramnik in Corus, Monaco and Dortmund. Therefore, you can see that Mexico was the only tournament in 2007 where Anand showed a better result in a tournament where both of them participate.

Kevin Bonham
21-12-2007, 10:36 PM
I don't think Kramnik represents this division. He is not worse than Anand in round robin tournaments.

I wasn't suggesting he is worse than any other specific player in RR tournaments (indeed until quite recently I had noticed Anand quite often disappointed in the major events and hence underestimated his chances in Mexico!) but I'd be interested to know how his outright-first percentage in them compares with the strike rate of world champions of the past in similar events, or with the reliability I'd expect from him in winning in matches (even if perhaps this is a little irrational since he did nearly lose one to Leko).

Could be you are absolutely right and we have just been spoilt rotten by Kasparov dominating an era when he was more clearly the best player in the world anyway. Of those you mention, Monaco is a blind/rapid and hence not very relevant, but yes, the other two wins were dominant.

guncha
21-12-2007, 11:15 PM
I'd be interested to know how his outright-first percentage in them compares with the strike rate of world champions of the past in similar events, or with the reliability I'd expect from him in winning in matches (even if perhaps this is a little irrational since he did nearly lose one to Leko).
What would be the point of such kind of comparison? IMHO, you cannot compare different eras because the levels of competition were different, tournaments were different.

Kevin Bonham
22-12-2007, 12:06 AM
What would be the point of such kind of comparison? IMHO, you cannot compare different eras because the levels of competition were different, tournaments were different.

The point would be that if it is unusually difficult for the best player of the time today (whoever that may be) to reliably win super-round-robin tournaments, especially in comparison with matches, then that may be a good argument for a separate concept of "world champion by matchplay" that Denis mentioned earlier.

Garvinator
22-12-2007, 12:26 AM
I am very much in favour of the world champion being decided by matchplay instead of tournament play.

If for no other reason than without the world championship being decided by matches, I think that matches would not occur between the top players.

guncha
22-12-2007, 01:19 AM
The point would be that if it is unusually difficult for the best player of the time today (whoever that may be) to reliably win super-round-robin tournaments, especially in comparison with matches, then that may be a good argument for a separate concept of "world champion by matchplay" that Denis mentioned earlier.
What does "reliably win super-round-robin tournaments" mean? Today one World Champion is vital because we have had mess for 15 years. If there will be numerous categories then this mess might continue.

Nowadays almost all elite tournaments are won by Topalov, Kramnik or Anand. They all have equal chances in an elite tournament. Therefore, they all might be considered as reliable winners. If there will be one event that will decide RR World Champion it will not mean that this player is the best in RR because he might have average results in next elite supertournaments.

On paper new World Championship cycle looks great because we have Grand Prix tournaments for elite players. This format gives more than one opportunity for elite players to fight for the title. We also have World Cup in which 128 players will play. Therefore, players outside elite have chances. We also have World Championship match. Therefore, it is very balanced system.

Kevin Bonham
22-12-2007, 09:57 AM
What does "reliably win super-round-robin tournaments" mean?

For the purposes of this discussion, I'll try win rate > 50%. (I've seen comments that while Petrosian was world champion he would only rarely win major tournaments, but I don't know if these are accurate or not.)


Today one World Champion is vital because we have had mess for 15 years. If there will be numerous categories then this mess might continue.

Yes, I totally agree with this - there are obviously very strong practical arguments for having a single title and not having parallel titles. Where I was talking about certain players presenting arguments for having multiple titles I meant theoretical arguments only - I don't think it's a good idea in practice, at all.


Nowadays almost all elite tournaments are won by Topalov, Kramnik or Anand. They all have equal chances in an elite tournament. Therefore, they all might be considered as reliable winners.

But if they all do have equal chances in an elite tournament then that means the chances of each one of them winning (if all play) are at best one-third, so none of them will win such tournaments all that reliably. At least, if they are all in an elite round-robin then it is most likely that the best player among them (whoever that is) will not win.


On paper new World Championship cycle looks great because we have Grand Prix tournaments for elite players. This format gives more than one opportunity for elite players to fight for the title. We also have World Cup in which 128 players will play. Therefore, players outside elite have chances. We also have World Championship match. Therefore, it is very balanced system.

I am quite pleased with the new system, given the total mess that has come before it.

Garvinator
18-05-2008, 02:43 AM
Talk about having to get out a shovel to dig out this thread.

Found the playing schedule for the 12 games.

While I did not play competitive chess of any sort back in 2000, I was still taking a bit of interest in the Kasparov-Kramnik match. I remember there being quite a bit of talk regarding the schedule, which was two games on consecutive days, then a day off, then another two games on consecutive days and so forth.

I do not remember who this was supposed to favour ie the person who gets white after the day off, which would have been Games 1,3,5 etc or vice versa.

But I do remember that there was quite a bit of chat in some reports regarding this factor.

I just happened to see the schedule for Anand-Kramnik and I see the same schedule is being used again.


Dates for the match: Gm1: Oct 14th, Gm2: Oct 15th, Gm3: Oct 17th, Gm4: Oct 18th, Gm5: Oct 20th, Gm6: Oct 21st, Gm7: Oct 23rd, Gm8: Oct 24th, Gm9: Oct 26th, Gm10: Oct 27th, Gm11: Oct 29th, Gm12: Oct 31st, Tiebreak Nov 2nd.

I think it would have been fairer if each game was one day apart, so Gm1 is on 14th, Game 2 on 16th and so forth.

Thoughts?

Desmond
18-05-2008, 08:15 AM
I don't know that it really makes much difference, but it is difficult to overestimate chess players' ability to complain.

Kevin Bonham
18-05-2008, 01:56 PM
I do not remember who this was supposed to favour ie the person who gets white after the day off, which would have been Games 1,3,5 etc or vice versa.

From memory it was supposed to favour the player with white after each day off. They get to play their white game while fresh. If they win then their opponent has to try to equalise when tired, so it is easy to consolidate a win - whereas if they draw it is more difficult for the tired opponent to press for a win in the second game.

However, the present schedule can be fixed by using a W,B,B,W,W,B,B,W colour order instead of W,B,W,B (etc) - do you know what they are doing in that regard?

Bill Gletsos
18-05-2008, 02:08 PM
However, the present schedule can be fixed by using a W,B,B,W,W,B,B,W colour order instead of W,B,W,B (etc) - do you know what they are doing in that regard?The colours are reversed after Round 6.

Kevin Bonham
18-05-2008, 02:18 PM
The colours are reversed after Round 6.

IIRC Kramnik-Topalov used that system too.

Garvinator
13-06-2008, 12:34 AM
Dont worry everyone, this match could also be decided by an armageddon game :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :hmm: :uhoh:

Kevin Bonham
12-07-2008, 05:27 PM
However, given that Kramnik agreed the tournament would be for the world title, and that he would not be world champion if he did not win it, it is clear that not even Kramnik disputes that Anand is now world champion.

Kramnik's latest comment on the matter is a bit more ambiguous than what he was saying around the time:

EURO: You reach arguable[sic] better results during matches then in tournaments. Traditionally, the World Champion title was to be won in matches. A challenger had to beat the reigning World Champion in the direct fight in order to become the new World Champion. The only historical exception was the situation just after the end of the Second World War, when Alexander Aljechin had died during his reign and so a tournament was played.

You can call me an old-fashion[sic] guy, but I still believe that the real chess championship is actually a match between the best players, not a tournament. So that is going to be the match which will take place between me and Vishy Anand this autumn in Bonn.

The tournament in Mexico was from my point of view a huge compromise. The problem was that the situation around the World Champion title was still difficult even after my unification match against Topalov. There was a need to find an acceptable compromise. After the unification my aim was to come back to a final match contest for the world champion crown under the umbrella of FIDE. In all the years after defeating Kasparov I felt this responsibility. Anything else would not have been in accordance with chess history, and also not with the desire of the overwhelming majority of chess fans all over the world.

It was always my goal to end the unhappy period when the World Chess Federation organised their ridiculous knock-out or round robin tournaments for the title. The problem was that the tournament in Mexico had already been agreed and I was informed that if I had refused to play there, the event would not have taken place at all. This would have ended in another impasse. So in order not to cause another split I, in the end, agreed to compromise and played the tournament, which FIDE called World Championship. The truth is I did not win in Mexico, the winner was Anand, and I will compete against him this year in the real contest for the chess crown. I attach ten times more attention to the coming match in Germany – consequently this event is ten times more important to me than the tournament in Mexico.

EURO: So do you consider Vishy Anand to be the World Champion or not?

It is not a question of simply yes or no. Anand won the tournament, which was called the World Championship Tournament, and I competed in that tournament as well. The International Chess Federation FIDE agreed to do it this way, so I have no right not to consider him the World Champion. A question is, however: what is the value of such a title? Similary I considered Kasimdzhanov to be a FIDE Champion, after winning the knock-out tournament in Libya. However I did not consider him to be the real champion. He had won a tournament and by FIDE’s definition he was a FIDE World Champion. But the value of this title was lower compared to the classical title won in a one-to-one match by Champions like Lasker, Spasski, Kasparov or me. The winner of the match Kramnik-Anand won’t be World Champion only from a legal point of view, he will be considered to be the World Champion and best chess player by the entire public.

Full interview: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/interviews/getinterview.aspx?id=178

I do not agree that Anand's title is as worthless as Kasimdzhanov's but I do agree that even a super-strong RR is inferior to a match, especially as Anand won his title by virtue of his superior results in the round robin against players who are not of World Championship match class.

Kevin Bonham
16-09-2008, 10:47 PM
Looks like with the closeness at the top of the world rankings, #5 and #6 could be facing off in this match for the world title!

Poll has been attached to thread.

Ivanchuk_Fan
26-09-2008, 09:37 PM
Only 18 days to go until the start of the match!

What openings do you think Anand and Kramnik will prepare for each other for this match? Here is my guess:

Anand: 1.e4 main lines as White, and Caro-Kann/Ruy Lopez vs. 1.e4 and Semi-Slav vs. 1.d4.

Kramnik: Mostly 1.d4, but sometimes 1.Nf3 as White, featuring mainly the Catalan. Petroff and Nimzo/QID complex as Black.

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2008, 11:25 PM
I'll be interested to see if there is any Caro-Kann from Anand in this match, bearing in mind Kramnik's amazing play in an obscure C-K line against Leko to square that match. Wouldn't surprise me if there are other cooked up goodies lying in wait in that opening. Of course if Kramnik avoids 1.e4 we'll never know.

I am going to miss about half this match. At the moment it looks like I will not be seeing games 1-4 and 8 and 9 live. :(

Trent Parker
10-10-2008, 09:55 AM
I predict all Kramnik's blacks will be draws and one or two of his whites will be wins to Kramnik.

Adamski
10-10-2008, 11:49 AM
I predict all Kramnik's blacks will be draws and one or two of his whites will be wins to Kramnik.I predict that well over 70% of the games will be drawn and Kramnik will win by one point, probably winning 2and losing one. So no tie-break will be required and Kramnik will be undisputed Wiorld Champion. High time the chess world had such an animal!

Ivanchuk_Fan
10-10-2008, 05:09 PM
I predict that Anand will win. The following factors are in his favour:

a) He dominated the year 2007, whereas Kramnik 'only' excelled in the Tal Memorial, where Anand did not participate.

b) Anand tends to be more objective than Kramnik; for example, Kramnik has more of a tendency to come up with excuses for his losses (at least in interviews).

c) If the match ends in a tie, Anand is stronger in rapid chess than Kramnik, a factor which is made even more important by Anand's nerves of steel.

However, opening preparation and energy will be more important factors than the ones I mentioned above.

Kevin Bonham
12-10-2008, 11:56 PM
No one has yet voted for either tiebreak option. Given the shortness of the match, the evenness of the contest and the high percentage of draws at this sort of level I thought I would be the first to do so! :D

eclectic
13-10-2008, 12:09 AM
my vote is a purely maverick one ;)

Garvinator
13-10-2008, 12:46 PM
I am regularly surprised for these type of matches/tournaments that two way mirror/glass panels are not used.

This would allow the spectators to see the players, but the players can not see the spectators, reducing distractions. Could also be sound proofed. Heaps of money is spent on these events, seems like a small item, but means so much.

Garvinator
13-10-2008, 12:46 PM
my vote is a purely maverick one ;)
I think a purely maverick vote would have been for the winner to win the title without winning any of the games :uhoh:

Ivanchuk_Fan
13-10-2008, 04:29 PM
Only one day until the match begins!

Interesting to note that so far 11 people have voted for Kramnik's victory in the match, whereas only 7 people (myself included) have voted for Anand's victory in the match.

Curiously, on ChessVibes, 55% of the 1,424 voters so far have voted for Anand, whereas 45% have voted for Kramnik.

A very large number of people will be proven wrong if the match is suddenly stopped or aborted...but fortunately, such an occurence seems very unlikely at the present time.

Let the games begin!

Intuition
14-10-2008, 09:13 AM
I am regularly surprised for these type of matches/tournaments that two way mirror/glass panels are not used.

This would allow the spectators to see the players, but the players can not see the spectators, reducing distractions. Could also be sound proofed. Heaps of money is spent on these events, seems like a small item, but means so much.

They are not using glass but another material which in effect does the same thing, not sure about sound proofing though

Intuition
14-10-2008, 09:15 AM
Theres nothing like a world championsip to fire up a persons diminishing interest in chess....another failed attempt at quitting for me :)

TheJoker
14-10-2008, 10:07 AM
Kramnik will start with the white pieces.

Garvinator
15-10-2008, 07:44 AM
Game 1

Kramnik v Anand

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Bf4 Nc6 6.e3 Bf5 7.Nf3 e6 8.Qb3 Bb4 9.Bb5 0–0 10.Bxc6 Bxc3+ 11.Qxc3 Rc8 12.Ne5 Ng4 13.Nxg4 Bxg4 14.Qb4 Rxc6 15.Qxb7 Qc8 16.Qxc8 Rfxc8 17.0–0 a5 18.f3 Bf5 19.Rfe1 Bg6 20.b3 f6 21.e4 dxe4 22.fxe4 Rd8 23.Rad1 Rc2 24.e5 fxe5 25.Bxe5 Rxa2 26.Ra1 Rxa1 27.Rxa1 Rd5 28.Rc1 Rd7 29.Rc5 Ra7 30.Rc7 Rxc7 31.Bxc7 Bc2 32.Bxa5 Bxb3 Draw

Desmond
15-10-2008, 09:16 AM
That was a World Championship game? Looks more like a game between a couple of 1400 players who are amenable to a draw.

Miranda
15-10-2008, 09:34 AM
It was a boring old draw.
I'm so disappointed - i stayed up till 3am watching it!

Intuition
15-10-2008, 11:29 AM
That was a World Championship game? Looks more like a game between a couple of 1400 players who are amenable to a draw.

lol... i think 1400 is being to generous :) .... hopefully kramnik will bring out the latvian gambit in the next game to liven things up...fingers crossed

Ian Rout
15-10-2008, 02:48 PM
lol... i think 1400 is being to generous :) .... hopefully kramnik will bring out the latvian gambit in the next game to liven things up...fingers crossed
The Petroff would be a better bet. Though considering that Anand would be certain to have prepared that Kramnik may go for something else, but in any event it will be something solid.

Are any of the gambling sites taking bets on the openings, you could get something good on the Latvian.

Garvinator
15-10-2008, 03:28 PM
The Petroff would be a better bet. Though considering that Anand would be certain to have prepared that Kramnik may go for something else, but in any event it will be something solid.

Are any of the gambling sites taking bets on the openings, you could get something good on the Latvian.
I think Kramnik will play something that is not expected, just like in 2000 with the Berlin.

Or for his first black game, if Anand plays e4, Kramnik might try and play the Berlin to get an easy first black game.

Have no idea against d4.

Ian Rout
15-10-2008, 03:54 PM
I think Kramnik will play something that is not expected, just like in 2000 with the Berlin.

Or for his first black game, if Anand plays e4, Kramnik might try and play the Berlin to get an easy first black game.

Have no idea against d4.
I expect to see the Petroff, I think he would rather see Anand's preparation now. But he could go either way. In 2000 he surprised Kasparov with the Berlin in his first Black, which was nevertheless still a solid opening, but against Leko he started with the Petroff.

Miranda
15-10-2008, 04:38 PM
i think it's going to be the petroff
[I guessed 1.d4 yesterday :) ]

MichaelBaron
15-10-2008, 04:58 PM
I predict that Anand will win. The following factors are in his favour:



c) If the match ends in a tie, Anand is stronger in rapid chess than Kramnik, a factor which is made even more important by Anand's nerves of steel.

However, opening preparation and energy will be more important factors than the ones I mentioned above.

I agree that Anand's is world's strongest rapid chess player in the world right now. As for his "nerves of steel" i do not think it is the case any more. He seems to faulter in important games quite often!

Capablanca-Fan
15-10-2008, 05:08 PM
I expect to see the Petroff, I think he would rather see Anand's preparation now. But he could go either way. In 2000 he surprised Kasparov with the Berlin in his first Black, which was nevertheless still a solid opening, but against Leko he started with the Petroff.
Yes, Kasparov showed that Kramnik's Berlin could be cracked (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1165519), although it was too late to save his title. And Kramnik can't have been encouraged to see Kasparov lose ignominiously to Polgar with it (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1254283).

Garvinator
15-10-2008, 11:13 PM
Suckers!!!

4. f3 Nimzo.

Currently move 9.

Basil
16-10-2008, 12:11 AM
People who do not have access to the official site may find this site helpful.


http://tournaments.chessdom.com/anand-kramnik-live

Garvinator
16-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Anand,V (2783) - Kramnik,V (2772) [E25]
WCh Bonn GER (2), 15.10.2008
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.dxc5 f5 9.Qc2 Nd7 10.e4 fxe4 11.fxe4 N5f6 12.c6 bxc6 13.Nf3 Qa5 14.Bd2 Ba6 15.c4 Qc5 16.Bd3 Ng4 17.Bb4 Qe3+ 18.Qe2 0-0-0 19.Qxe3 Nxe3 20.Kf2 Ng4+ 21.Kg3 Ndf6 22.Bb1 h5 23.h3 h4+ 24.Nxh4 Ne5 25.Nf3 Nh5+ 26.Kf2 Nxf3 27.Kxf3 e5 28.Rc1 Nf4 29.Ra2 Nd3 30.Rc3 Nf4 31.Bc2 Ne6 32.Kg3 Rd4 draw

Desmond
16-10-2008, 10:20 AM
Last player to make a 33rd move in a game is a rotten egg!

Ian Rout
16-10-2008, 10:22 AM
Suckers!!!

4. f3 Nimzo.

Currently move 9.
Yes, didn't see that coming. It seems like Anand is looking to shake it up from the start so there could be some good games.

Davidflude
16-10-2008, 10:50 PM
Crikey is putting each game annotated by Ian Rogers on their daily bulletin.

Ivanchuk_Fan
17-10-2008, 06:54 AM
Do you have the link to Ian's annotations?

Miranda
17-10-2008, 01:34 PM
I hope Kramnik wins.
I think he's going to play 1.e4 today..

Garvinator
18-10-2008, 09:40 AM
Game three: Anand wins with black

Kramnik,V (2772) - Anand,V (2783) [D49]
WCh Bonn GER (3), 17.10.2008
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 8.Bd3 a6 9.e4 c5 10.e5 cxd4 11.Nxb5 axb5 12.exf6 gxf6 13.0-0 Qb6 14.Qe2 Bb7 15.Bxb5 Bd6 16.Rd1 Rg8 17.g3 Rg4 18.Bf4 Bxf4 19.Nxd4 h5 20.Nxe6 fxe6 21.Rxd7 Kf8 22.Qd3 Rg7 23.Rxg7 Kxg7 24.gxf4 Rd8 25.Qe2 Kh6 26.Kf1 Rg8 27.a4 Bg2+ 28.Ke1 Bh3 29.Ra3 Rg1+ 30.Kd2 Qd4+ 31.Kc2 Bg4 32.f3 Bf5+ 33.Bd3 Bh3 34.a5 Rg2 35.a6 Rxe2+ 36.Bxe2 Bf5+ 37.Kb3 Qe3+ 38.Ka2 Qxe2 39.a7 Qc4+ 40.Ka1 Qf1+ 41.Ka2 Bb1+ 0-1

Davidflude
18-10-2008, 01:04 PM
Do you have the link to Ian's annotations?

They are of course copyright.

I watch games at http://tournaments.chessdom.com/anand-kramnik-live

This site looks intersting as they are showing europen club teams with 50 boards and very strong players.

Garvinator
18-10-2008, 01:53 PM
Susan Polgar will also be starting live commentary on her website starting tonight: http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2008/10/live-analysis-for-game-4.html

Ian_Rogers
19-10-2008, 12:29 AM
David Flude is right that Crikey articles are copyright, but anyone can sign up for a free three week trial subscription at Crikey.com.au and read them if they wish.

Ian

Capablanca-Fan
19-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Game 4 drawn (http://live.chessdom.com/kramnik-anand-2008-g4.html): Kramnik didn't have any trouble equalizing with Black, but this is not as good as winning with Black as Anand did in the previous game.

Davidflude
20-10-2008, 09:33 AM
David Flude is right that Crikey articles are copyright, but anyone can sign up for a free three week trial subscription at Crikey.com.au and read them if they wish.

Ian

Yes everybody should sign up for a free trial. It is great fun. It even revealed what a certain cricketer did and it was not fishing.

Garvinator
21-10-2008, 02:07 AM
Game 5:

Another black win for Anand. Things did seem promising for Kramnik at some stages.

[Round "5"]
[White "Kramnik, V."]
[Black "Anand, V."]
[Result "0-1"]
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Bd3 dxc4 7. Bxc4 b5 8. Bd3
a6 9. e4 c5 10. e5 cxd4 11. Nxb5 axb5 12. exf6 gxf6 13. O-O Qb6 14. Qe2 Bb7 15.
Bxb5 Rg8 16. Bf4 Bd6 17. Bg3 f5 18. Rfc1 f4 19. Bh4 Be7 20. a4 Bxh4 21. Nxh4
Ke7 22. Ra3 Rac8 23. Rxc8 Rxc8 24. Ra1 Qc5 25. Qg4 Qe5 26. Nf3 Qf6 27. Re1 Rc5
28. b4 Rc3 29. Nxd4 Qxd4 30. Rd1 Nf6 31. Rxd4 Nxg4 32. Rd7+ Kf6 33. Rxb7 Rc1+
34. Bf1 Ne3 35. fxe3 fxe3 0-1

Kevin Bonham
21-10-2008, 09:11 AM
I didn't watch games one to four because I was away, but during this time I dreamt that Anand won games 1, 2 and 3 and Kramnik got on the board with a draw in round 4. While my dream was incorrect, it is really not that much better for him. One draw and two losses from three white games is disastrous and it is very difficult to see him coming back from here. Playing into the same line you already lost in and losing again in such a short match is quite remarkable.

Intuition
21-10-2008, 09:12 AM
Its quite suprising that somebody of Kramnik's caliber can loose in the end in a way resembling a 1500ers game to simplish tactics, but then again I guess he did miss mate in 1 as the world champion not that long ago :)

MichaelBaron
21-10-2008, 09:52 AM
Anand's fighting spirit is really impressive :clap:

Desmond
21-10-2008, 09:59 AM
Great play by Anand, makes the match interesting as Kramnik will have to try to win and maybe take some great risks in doing so.

Kevin Bonham
21-10-2008, 10:19 AM
The problem for Kramnik is the match is so short. People have come from two games down and won these matches before but those were longer matches. Topalov did manage to make it to the tiebreak after trailing 3-1 but he had the assistance of a forfeit.

ER
21-10-2008, 12:02 PM
... While my dream was incorrect, ....
Careful Kev, admissions of fallibility might be used against you! :P
Cagles!

ER
21-10-2008, 12:04 PM
One needs to have VK's guts and street fighting qualities to come back from a position like that! Kram is a softy methinks!
Cheers and good luck!

Capablanca-Fan
21-10-2008, 12:14 PM
I wonder about picking ultra-sharp systems with White rather than the solid systems that often lead to nagging pressure, like those that won crucial last games in Kasparov–Karpov and Kramnik–Leko. Sharp play mixes things up and makes the first move advantage less important. Kramnik also went down screaming against Leko as White in the Spanish Marshall Attack.

bobby1972
21-10-2008, 12:23 PM
has any one seen that talk by Spassky and Tal ,Spassky goes on to say that none could play the ending like Vk,who could fight like VK,none had the defensive abily of Vk,and on it went singing his praise,then Spassky said want to know why he never became world champ ?then Tal says shall we tell them theyre dying to know.and Spassky says ok,:lol: by now they are both laughing "he has no talent".

Miranda
21-10-2008, 12:39 PM
mmmmkay...
I think Kramnik's just got off to a bad start, but he'll get more into form as the WCC progresses

bobby1972
21-10-2008, 01:11 PM
nope he will be like kaspa in 2000 won`t win a single game,and if he looses more games he might become another larsen.the truth took a bit to catch up with him,but now we know.look at the video it it clear he did not see ne3 till anand whent to move ,and you can see anand very early looking at kramnik like "can`t you see it"?.

Miranda
21-10-2008, 01:26 PM
Hm..

I don't think it was a great idea for Kramnik to play the line he lost with. I guess he thought he would get a psychological advantage, but it didn't really seem to work.

I don't think it'll be a draw tonight - either Kramnik will crumble, or make an awesome comeback.

bobby1972
21-10-2008, 01:35 PM
the same way kaspa kept playing the ruy ,very very silly.he has never beaten anand with black.and he would have prepared a solid black repertoire .

Davidflude
21-10-2008, 04:02 PM
What a difficult situation for Kramnik. Does he play a solid defence or does he go for a fighting defence. Personally I expect Kramnik to go for solidity.

Then he must do something different as white. However with a two point lead Anand can play safe.

What stands out so far is that Anand is better prepared in the openings. He is setting Kramnik problems that get him into time trouble and then the mistakes happen.

Ivanchuk_Fan
21-10-2008, 04:22 PM
I don't expect Kramnik to repeat the Meran as White, so my guess is that he will play one of the following lines in his next white game:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3
or, if Anand shows his willingness to play a Nimzo:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3

Adamski
21-10-2008, 04:37 PM
I think the die is cast for the (current) VK. It took me a minute or 2 to realise earlier references to VK in this thread meant Korchnoi.:doh:

Not just in this match, Kramnik's inadequate opening preparation has been shown up. (He had the same problem against Leko for one as is shown in From London to Elista. He could easily have lost the World Champs in that match to someone who was not rated in the top 2 or 3 in the world.)

Aaron Guthrie
21-10-2008, 04:40 PM
(He had the same problem against Leko for one as is shown in From London to Elista. He could easily have lost the World Champs in that match to someone who was not rated in the top 2 or 3 in the world.)So this is the second time he is in danger of losing to someone who is not rated in the top 2 or 3 in the world!

pax
21-10-2008, 04:55 PM
It's a shame that this match comes at a time when both players seem to be little bit on the wane. This is not the same Kramnik who defeated Kasparov.

MichaelBaron
21-10-2008, 08:19 PM
So this is the second time he is in danger of losing to someone who is not rated in the top 2 or 3 in the world!

Ratings are all relative...Anand was number 1 up till the last rating list. Even now, there are about 5 players with roughly same ratings.

Kevin Bonham
21-10-2008, 09:46 PM
It's a shame that this match comes at a time when both players seem to be little bit on the wane. This is not the same Kramnik who defeated Kasparov.

There's also the view that Kasparov defeated himself in that match.

There's a belief about that Kramnik has some special skill in matchplay that I don't think really stands up to scrutiny. After all Kramnik lost to Shirov in a match Shirov was not given much chance of winning, then beat an out-of-sorts Kasparov, then had to win the last game to square against Leko, then got taken to tiebreak after leading 3-1 against Topalov. That is not actually such an awesome record.

All the same I expected the two players to be roughly equally over the hill in this match giving Kramnik a good chance, but Anand seems quite motivated whereas Kramnik isn't getting it together yet.

Basil
21-10-2008, 10:31 PM
What a difficult situation for Kramnik. Does he play a solid defence or does he go for a fighting defence.
Great question. Possibly one only a World Champ can answer. I think there's something in that for all of us. Krammers, u reading? ;)

WhiteElephant
21-10-2008, 10:32 PM
It's a shame that this match comes at a time when both players seem to be little bit on the wane. This is not the same Kramnik who defeated Kasparov.

Not so sure about that.....I agree that in the last few months K & A's results have been down but you could argue that this was partly due to their preparation for this match. In the case of Anand, I think he is at the top of his career, having finally broken through after being the bridesmaid for many years. Kramnik (despite what Kevin said :)) seems to lift for matchplay and he was very solid against Topalov who was in blistering form at the time.

With regards to the current match, I feel that Kramnik should be pretty pissed about poor preparation (that is, selecting the wrong line) and playing into Anand's hands. Twice so far!

tanc
22-10-2008, 05:35 AM
With regards to the current match, I feel that Kramnik should be pretty pissed about poor preparation (that is, selecting the wrong line) and playing into Anand's hands. Twice so far!

Make that 3.

Garrett
22-10-2008, 08:07 AM
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d5 5.cxd5 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Qf5 7.Qb3 Nc6 8.Bd2 0-0 9.h3 b6 10.g4 Qa5 11.Rc1 Bb7 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 Qd5 14.Qxd5 Nxd5 15.Bd2 Nf6 16.Rg1 Rac8 17.Bg2 Ne7 18.Bb4 c5 19.dxc5 Rfd8 20.Ne5 Bxg2 21.Rxg2 bxc5 22.Rxc5 Ne4 23.Rxc8 Rxc8 24.Nd3 Nd5 25.Bd2 Rc2 26.Bc1 f5 27.Kd1 Rc8 28.f3 Nd6 29.Ke1 a5 30.e3 e5 31.gxf5 e4 32.fxe4 Nxe4 33.Bd2 a4 34.Nf2 Nd6 35.Rg4 Nc4 36.e4 Nf6 37.Rg3 Nxb2 38.e5 Nd5 39.f6 Kf7 40.Ne4 Nc4 41.fxg7 Kg8 42.Rd3 Ndb6 43.Bh6 Nxe5 44.Nf6+ Kf7 45.Rc3 Rxc3 46.g8=Q+ Kxf6 47.Bg7+ 1-0

posting it here to have a look as the Chessbase link is not working for me.

cheers
Garrett

Desmond
22-10-2008, 08:22 AM
Wow, this is turning into a bloodbath. Exciting stuff!

MichaelBaron
22-10-2008, 09:01 AM
Looks like the match is over :doh:

Garvinator
22-10-2008, 09:30 AM
Once again, us chesschatters show how we are poll tipping geniuses ;)

pax
22-10-2008, 09:42 AM
Congrats to eclectic on being wrong already only half way through the match :cool:

ER
22-10-2008, 10:10 AM
has any one seen that talk by Spassky and Tal ,Spassky goes on to say that none could play the ending like Vk,who could fight like VK,none had the defensive abily of Vk,and on it went singing his praise,then Spassky said want to know why he never became world champ ?then Tal says shall we tell them theyre dying to know.and Spassky says ok,:lol: by now they are both laughing "he has no talent".

lol, hey Ascaro, did these two gentlemen refer to their individual scores against Victor? :P
Cheers and good luck!

Capablanca-Fan
22-10-2008, 10:40 AM
No one predicted that it would be this one-sided in favour of the older player.

peter_parr
22-10-2008, 10:46 AM
World title matches have always been the perfect time to attract new players to chess clubs due to the enormous publicity a world title match attracts to the general public.

The first 5 games have been published with regular reports in the Sydney Morning Herald.

News (http://www.chessdiscountsales.com/news/newsindex.htm)

Is there other regular media coverage in major newspapers across Australia?

bobby1972
22-10-2008, 10:58 AM
you should read what kaspa wrote about VK "in how chess imitates life" he writes "what is the man trying to prove then he mocks VK claim "greatest player never to be world champ" VK believe it or not was never 2700 .hes score against tal was always big well tal won the last 3 i think.spassky had a great score but spoiled it after he lost to fischer kaspa believes he stopped trying when it counted he crashed Vk (4-1 thats not the score of a world champ) in the candidates match.he was just not world champ material

TheJoker
22-10-2008, 12:44 PM
Anyone else notice Anand didn't castle in any of his three wins!!! But rather used his rook to support a pawn push on the opossing castled king

MichaelBaron
22-10-2008, 03:08 PM
Anyone else notice Anand didn't castle in any of his three wins!!! But rather used his rook to support a pawn push on the opossing castled king

Nothing to do with castling being overrated. Generally, its good to castle early. Its just the the specific positions arising in the games made the castling unnecessary

WhiteElephant
22-10-2008, 03:10 PM
Half way through the last game, someone on ICC made the comment that this game is a microcosm of Kramnik's and Anand's style - Kramnik hates Queens so he's swapped off and Anand hates castling. :D

TheJoker
22-10-2008, 04:07 PM
Nothing to do with castling being overrated. Generally, its good to castle early. Its just the the specific positions arising in the games made the castling unnecessary

Of course you're right. It was supposed to be a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment.

Garrett
22-10-2008, 04:16 PM
Of course you're right. It was supposed to be a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment.

It's an interesting observation though Joker.

Thinking about it, I think I nearly always castle as white but more often do not (or at least delay) when playing black.

Maybe castling is somewhat more dangerous for black, especially in semi-open and closed opening when white has space and can swing pieces to an attack on the king quickly.

cheers
Garrett.

ER
22-10-2008, 05:01 PM
you should read what kaspa wrote about VK "in how chess imitates life" he writes "what is the man trying to prove then he mocks VK claim "greatest player never to be world champ" VK believe it or not was never 2700 .hes score against tal was always big well tal won the last 3 i think.spassky had a great score but spoiled it after he lost to fischer kaspa believes he stopped trying when it counted he crashed Vk (4-1 thats not the score of a world champ) in the candidates match.he was just not world champ material

Ascaro, you have to take under consideration the pressure (political and social) under which VK had to perform. It stuffed the man's life up and yet he had the courage and determination to stand up against the systhem and reach the World Championship finals two times well ahead of the other two (great indeed) players ie Tahl and Spassky - former world champions themselves.
I agree that Tahl and Spassky will be having a higher position than Korchnoi in the history of the game.
But, having said that, (even jocular) statements that he had no talent or that he wasn't WC material I think are overfetched to say the least! :)
Cheers and good luck

Kevin Bonham
22-10-2008, 07:20 PM
I would never have expected three decisive games in the first six, let alone all wins to the same player and two of those with black!

ER
22-10-2008, 07:55 PM
I think he was mellow enough, marriage mellowed him even more! :P
Chess players beware of the knot! :P:P
Twice (possibly thrice) a victim, I know what I am talking about! :P
CAGLES

Davidflude
22-10-2008, 08:54 PM
you should read what kaspa wrote about VK "in how chess imitates life" he writes "what is the man trying to prove then he mocks VK claim "greatest player never to be world champ" VK believe it or not was never 2700 .hes score against tal was always big well tal won the last 3 i think.spassky had a great score but spoiled it after he lost to fischer kaspa believes he stopped trying when it counted he crashed Vk (4-1 thats not the score of a world champ) in the candidates match.he was just not world champ material

I have seen it said that Korchnoi has no intuition and that he calculates everything. This was one of the reasons that he was a great defender. He ate unsound sacrifices for breakfast especially when Tal played them. He lost to Karpov when Karpov was at his peak which is no disgrace. however he ranks alongside Lasker and Karpov as a great defender and they are rare.

bobby1972
22-10-2008, 09:30 PM
justanight did you see the way karpov trapped VK queen in 16 moves a few moths ago .i only have one informator(43) which includes 2 brilliancies and man are they good by tal against our hero,but the real game of interest is #476 now our hero was white against karpov and the last move is written as "[k??}" that is because no one knows where the white king ended up after Vk threw it across the room ,then he told karpov "you will never play on agaist me again in such a position"you see he touched the king when karpov attacked his N .greatest players never to be world champ could our hero make this list ivanchuk,moro,raddanov,aronian.leko,polgar,mamedya rov.gelfand,karjakin,svidler.carlsen ,kamsky,shirov.adams,
geller ,keres,larsen,bronstein at least his claim is real,reshevsky.you see VK dont look so good now,he was NEVER world champ because karpov kaspa fischer spassky tal petrosian where infront at the right time not so great after all.

WhiteElephant
22-10-2008, 09:42 PM
Of that list, Carlsen, Aronian, Karjakin, Mamedyarov & Radjabov might still do it! Maybe even Kamsky :eek:

Heh nice story about throwing the King.

bobby1972
22-10-2008, 10:03 PM
i forgot sultan khan now there s a chess player,charusek died very young,rueben fine .najdorf.

Davidflude
22-10-2008, 10:22 PM
justanight did you see the way karpov trapped VK queen in 16 moves a few moths ago .i only have one informator(43) which includes 2 brilliancies and man are they good by tal against our hero,but the real game of interest is #476 now our hero was white against karpov and the last move is written as "[k??}" that is because no one knows where the white king ended up after Vk threw it across the room ,then he told karpov "you will never play on agaist me again in such a position"you see he touched the king when karpov attacked his N .greatest players never to be world champ could our hero make this list ivanchuk,moro,raddanov,aronian.leko,polgar,mamedya rov.gelfand,karjakin,svidler.carlsen ,kamsky,shirov.adams,
geller ,keres,larsen,bronstein at least his claim is real,reshevsky.you see VK dont look so good now,he was NEVER world champ because karpov kaspa fischer spassky tal petrosian where infront at the right time not so great after all.

Schlechter also could be added to the list.

Davidflude
22-10-2008, 10:24 PM
Have a look at the Chess Cafe web site and the way they are showing the games.

Kevin Bonham
22-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Thread on greatest player never to be world champion here (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=3738)

Capablanca-Fan
23-10-2008, 08:59 AM
At least Anand will be a World Champ recognized by the entire chess world, and 15th in the line of real champs starting with Steinitz.

Miranda
23-10-2008, 09:40 AM
Hm...
but the thing is
a lot of people don't think that Anand and Kramnik should be competing for the WC title, and although it'll be officially recognised... there'll always be some debate about it

bobby1972
23-10-2008, 09:42 AM
the thing is you see kaspa is about 24 games up on him the last time anand beat him was 96 i think.but he is world champ and he is world champ.

Capablanca-Fan
23-10-2008, 09:46 AM
Hm...
but the thing is
a lot of people don't think that Anand and Kramnik should be competing for the WC title, and although it'll be officially recognised... there'll always be some debate about it
Why? Anand won a tourney that was designated as World Championship ahead of all the major rivals, and now is defeating in a match the one who defeated Kasparov in a match for the title.


the thing is you see kaspa is about 24 games up on him the last time anand beat him was 96 i think.but he is world champ and he is world champ.
Kasparov is retired. Eventually people came to see Karpov as a worthy world champ after Fischer retired.

Kevin Bonham
23-10-2008, 09:54 AM
At least Anand will be a World Champ recognized by the entire chess world, and 15th in the line of real champs starting with Steinitz.

I actually wonder if this is a part of Kramnik's problem. He devalues the title Anand won by such a large margin and therefore doesn't fully accept that he (Kramnik) is the challenger.

As for Anand's recognition there will probably always be some who don't recognise the incumbent for whatever reason. What significant bodies or figures in world chess do not consider Anand to be formally the world champion?

Miranda
23-10-2008, 09:57 AM
He's not the world champion yet! :P

Just wait a week or two, though :)

Capablanca-Fan
23-10-2008, 09:58 AM
For the good of chess, FIDE needs to restore the old method of world championship succession. I.e. the next event for the title should be Anand facing a challenger decided by some candidates tournament or matches.

bobby1972
23-10-2008, 10:05 AM
imagine if kramnik won and topa beat kamsky how would we ever have a unified champ then ,its good like this ,kramnik will never challenge again.
thank you india
thank you terror
thank you disillusionment
thank you frailty
thank you consequence
thank you thank you silence

Kevin Bonham
23-10-2008, 10:15 AM
For the good of chess, FIDE needs to restore the old method of world championship succession. I.e. the next event for the title should be Anand facing a challenger decided by some candidates tournament or matches.

Actually this match is not too far askew from that tradition because this is the defeated champion (Kramnik) getting a return match against the new champion (Anand) which has been part of the tradition on and off - it's only the manner of Kramnik losing his title that's unorthodox.

The next event for the title is (if it happens) Anand facing a challenger decided by a match between Topalov and Kamsky. Kamsky is the winner of a candidates tournament, albeit one conducted using ridiculously short matches. Topalov's appearance is another form of the concept of right of return for a defeated champion, except that (a) the right of return is delayed for a cycle because Topalov's loss to Kramnik excluded him from the previous one for logistic reasons (b) Topalov was never a real World Champion anyway.

From the 2011 cycle things are supposed to return to normal with an incumbent world champion facing the winner of a match between the winners of two different qualification cycles. The only problem there is that both the cycles are disputable - the World Cup consists of matches that are far too short and the Grand Prix is a lengthy and strenuous commitment.

bobby1972
23-10-2008, 10:36 AM
the next russian to hold the tittle ? :hmm: i believe it wont be too long .but who knows.

ER
23-10-2008, 11:27 AM
well they started late in the 20th century too! :P

ER
23-10-2008, 11:29 AM
wow VK was born in 1931!!! Twenty years older than AK!

littlesprout85
23-10-2008, 08:22 PM
Ahhh, Seems to the sprout that Anands is really coming into his own now. Meh thougth that Kramniks would put up more of a fight. Meh totally have underestimated Anands prowlness and Strength. Still pretty young and will most definatly will be a force growing ever stronger with the years to come. To Win by such a large margin, meh think that knights might be on to something with tying da knot :0

-Sprout85 :)

MichaelBaron
24-10-2008, 11:00 AM
If not for Kramnik's resourceful defence in Game 7, the margine could be even bigger :)

Igor_Goldenberg
24-10-2008, 03:45 PM
If not for Kramnik's resourceful defence in Game 7, the margine could be even bigger :)

To me his position did not seem very dangerous.

MichaelBaron
24-10-2008, 04:16 PM
To me his position did not seem very dangerous.

As pointed out by Notkin in his russian-language online chess commentary (www.chesspro.ru) he found a strong plan (b6, Rc4 etc.) to hold. Would he play inaccurately there were surely ways of losing that endgame. In any case, it was Vishi who was pressing throughout the game without allowing Kramnik counterplay at any point.

pax
24-10-2008, 05:39 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2400423.htm

It's a bit fluffy, but that was more or less the spec..

Igor_Goldenberg
24-10-2008, 06:22 PM
As pointed out by Notkin in his russian-language online chess commentary (www.chesspro.ru) he found a strong plan (b6, Rc4 etc.) to hold. Would he play inaccurately there were surely ways of losing that endgame. In any case, it was Vishi who was pressing throughout the game without allowing Kramnik counterplay at any point.
It the nature of the variation - small plus for white, but very drawish. Both sides have chances of losing if playing inaccurately.

TIMMIK
24-10-2008, 07:04 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2400423.htm

It's a bit fluffy, but that was more or less the spec..
Are you Jonathan Paxman ?

Miranda
24-10-2008, 07:31 PM
Are you Jonathan Paxman ?
you took the words right out of my mouth!

bobby1972
24-10-2008, 08:57 PM
go vishy retire this pretender,i wonder will he EVER win another tournament ,very unlikely .hes got no excuses he said he was in great shape.this pretender never gave kaspa a rematch chiken just like alekhine.imagine if he had won then topa beats kamsky.then kramnik would also have denied topa a rematch.the beauty is he tried to side line topa but topa is still in it and kramnik will never be able to win the tournaments required to get a shot at the tittle again,goodbye thanks for the boring games.:) :) :)

eclectic
24-10-2008, 09:04 PM
i don't believe in this rematch crud

if you win the title you ought to be able to enjoy it

TIMMIK
24-10-2008, 09:52 PM
go vishy retire this pretender,i wonder will he EVER win another tournament ,very unlikely .hes got no excuses he said he was in great shape.this pretender never gave kaspa a rematch chiken just like alekhine.imagine if he had won then topa beats kamsky.then kramnik would also have denied topa a rematch.the beauty is he tried to side line topa but topa is still in it and kramnik will never be able to win the tournaments required to get a shot at the tittle again,goodbye thanks for the boring games.:) :) :)
i couldn't agree more .
Vishy will light up the chess world.

pax
24-10-2008, 10:01 PM
Are you Jonathan Paxman ?
Have a guess :-/

Adamski
24-10-2008, 10:11 PM
go vishy retire this pretender,i wonder will he EVER win another tournament ,very unlikely .hes got no excuses he said he was in great shape.this pretender never gave kaspa a rematch chiken just like alekhine.imagine if he had won then topa beats kamsky.then kramnik would also have denied topa a rematch.the beauty is he tried to side line topa but topa is still in it and kramnik will never be able to win the tournaments required to get a shot at the tittle again,goodbye thanks for the boring games.:) :) :)This is all a bit over-the-top hard on Kramnik. E.g., Topalov and especially his "master" Danailov were the ones at fault in Toiletgate. Read From London to Elista to see Kramnik's side of the stories. Topa got an unwarranted win by default - and a Kramnik white too...

PS, yes folks, pax is Jonathan Paxman.

Ian Murray
24-10-2008, 10:31 PM
go vishy retire this pretender,i wonder will he EVER win another tournament ,very unlikely .hes got no excuses he said he was in great shape.this pretender never gave kaspa a rematch chiken just like alekhine.imagine if he had won then topa beats kamsky.then kramnik would also have denied topa a rematch.the beauty is he tried to side line topa but topa is still in it and kramnik will never be able to win the tournaments required to get a shot at the tittle again,goodbye thanks for the boring games.:) :) :)

While confident Anand would win comfortably (see this thead's poll), I think writing off Kramnik is rather ill-informed. No player makes it into the top 10 and stays there by accident,

Davidflude
24-10-2008, 11:56 PM
Clearly Anand has prepared for this match with great care. He unleashes new moves and changes openings all of which keep Kramnik off balance.

bobby1972
25-10-2008, 10:42 AM
kramnik now will quickly drop out of top 10 maybe even top 20,he he he
lets wait say july rating list he he he.if he plays thats is?

MichaelBaron
25-10-2008, 11:01 AM
Clearly Anand has prepared for this match with great care. He unleashes new moves and changes openings all of which keep Kramnik off balance.

True. I wonder if Kramnik will finally try to play more agressively as Black since he no longer has anything to lose.

Capablanca-Fan
25-10-2008, 02:31 PM
While confident Anand would win comfortably (see this thead's poll), I think writing off Kramnik is rather ill-informed. No player makes it into the top 10 and stays there by accident,
Agreed. To defeat the great Kasparov without losing a single game is a remarkable achievement. Kasparov had never been defeated in a match before, and had previously crushed such strong players as Hübner, Miles, Timman, Andersson, Short and Anand himself.

Garvinator
25-10-2008, 02:35 PM
Agreed. To defeat the great Kasparov without losing a single game is a remarkable achievement. Kasparov had never been defeated in a match before, and had previously crushed such strong players as Hübner, Miles, Timman, Andersson, Short and Anand himself.
And repeatedly defeated Karpov in matches as well.

Capablanca-Fan
25-10-2008, 03:03 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2400423.htm

It's a bit fluffy, but that was more or less the spec..
It's actually not bad, and I agree with you that the drug tests were absurd.

Garrett
25-10-2008, 04:58 PM
And repeatedly defeated Karpov in matches as well.

LOL ! That's what I what I was about to say. The KK matches were legendary.

I don't think Kaspy would be putting the others (apart from Anand) on his resume.

Cheers
Garrett.

Capablanca-Fan
25-10-2008, 09:02 PM
Yeah, I didn't think people needed reminding about the Karpov v Kasparov matches ;) Kaspy also defeated such strong players as Belyavsky, Korchnoi and Smyslov. In tournament play, he also amassed big plus scores over every other strong player apart from Kramnik. So Kramnik was a worthy successor.

Garvinator
26-10-2008, 01:05 AM
Yeah, I didn't think people needed reminding about the Karpov v Kasparov matches ;) Kaspy also defeated such strong players as Belyavsky, Korchnoi and Smyslov. In tournament play, he also amassed big plus scores over every other strong player apart from Kramnik. So Kramnik was a worthy successor.
One area for comparison that can not really be measured is the relative strength of most of the top players because they do not get to compete in fair dinkum matches, such as the candidate matches.

pax
27-10-2008, 10:53 AM
It's actually not bad,
Why, thankyou :)

Desmond
27-10-2008, 11:18 AM
Is the mercy rule going to be invoked, so that the match will finish when it is already decided, or are all 12 games going to be played regardless?

Garrett
27-10-2008, 11:52 AM
I've read on a couple of sites that the match will end when (if) Anand reaches 6.5 points.

cheers
Garrett.

Denis_Jessop
27-10-2008, 11:53 AM
Is the mercy rule going to be invoked, so that the match will finish when it is already decided, or are all 12 games going to be played regardless?

The event regulations provide as follows:


3.6 Conditions of victory


3.6.1 The WCCM shall be played over twelve (12) games and the winner of the match shall be the first player to score 6.5 points or more. A tie shall be broken according to article 3.7 below. If the winner scores 6.5 points in less then 12 games then the organizers can re-schedule the Closing Ceremony for an earlier date.

DJ

Miranda
27-10-2008, 03:16 PM
So... tonight will probably be the last night?

eclectic
27-10-2008, 03:22 PM
it might still go to 6 all followed by a tiebreak decider if kramnik wins the remaining games :eek:

Miranda
27-10-2008, 03:31 PM
Theoretically, krammy winning all his games is possible

In reality, it's not going to happen.

eclectic
27-10-2008, 03:36 PM
Theoretically, krammy winning all his games is possible

In reality, it's not going to happen.

if it gets to game 12 so i can hear peter svidler comment on icc/chessfm then i'll be quite happy

:cool:

Miranda
27-10-2008, 03:50 PM
Same here!

But I think tonight will be my last call-in :(

bobby1972
28-10-2008, 07:23 AM
its good for chess that kramnik won,but he will still not win, no way he could win 3 in a row ,

CameronD
28-10-2008, 08:06 AM
its good for chess that kramnik won,but he will still not win, no way he could win 3 in a row ,

Instead of thinking of winning 3 in a row, he just has to win the next game first and then the next game and then anything could happen.

Miranda
28-10-2008, 08:52 AM
YAY!

Krammy won!
:D

I'm so happy!

Capablanca-Fan
28-10-2008, 09:55 AM
YAY!

Krammy won!
:D

I'm so happy!
Why is that? So the match will conform to your poll prediction? I speak as a Krammy supporter.

Miranda
28-10-2008, 10:00 AM
I support Krammy too! So I'm happy that he won because I want him to win...

But to choose my selection for the poll, I just shut my eyes, scrolled up and down, and whatever my mouse landed on I selected :)

Desmond
28-10-2008, 10:01 AM
If Kramnik wins the next one, I just might stay up for the last game.

Miranda
28-10-2008, 10:04 AM
If Kramnik wins the next one, I just might stay up for the last game.

I stayed up till 4:30am last night because I thought it would be the final match ;)

Capablanca-Fan
28-10-2008, 10:06 AM
Crikey is putting each game annotated by Ian Rogers on their daily bulletin.
Interesting comments on the players' styles (after Game 9):


Kramnik plays the board, not the man or the tournament standings. The 33-year-old Russian would rather play a fault-free game than win through gambling or bluff. Each game for Kramnik is an opportunity to try to create a work of art, albeit one where his opponent tries to obstruct him at every move.

...

In contrast, Anand is a pragmatist — even a philistine — who would play bad moves if he thought they would confuse his opponent and lead to a win. Thanks to his incredible feel for the game, Anand has played just as many masterpieces as Kramnik and, most galling for Kramnik, Anand had won the one game in this World Championship match, the third, which will be admired and replayed for decades to come.

Davidflude
28-10-2008, 10:19 AM
Interesting comments on the players' styles (after Game 9):


Kramnik plays the board, not the man or the tournament standings. The 33-year-old Russian would rather play a fault-free game than win through gambling or bluff. Each game for Kramnik is an opportunity to try to create a work of art, albeit one where his opponent tries to obstruct him at every move.

...

In contrast, Anand is a pragmatist — even a philistine — who would play bad moves if he thought they would confuse his opponent and lead to a win. Thanks to his incredible feel for the game, Anand has played just as many masterpieces as Kramnik and, most galling for Kramnik, Anand had won the one game in this World Championship match, the third, which will be admired and replayed for decades to come.

The same comments were made about Emmanuel Lasker. Still Kramnik played a near perfect game last night. He is a super technician. he should have won the previous game as well. Is Anand tiring? Is Kramnik lifting?

Miranda
28-10-2008, 10:29 AM
Kramnik's game was pretty good last night [/this morning?]

I think that Anand just lost the plot a bit - he was expecting a draw simply because he hadn't lost a game yet.

WhiteElephant
28-10-2008, 10:39 AM
Just looked at the game - rather strange, seemed like Anand wanted to self-destruct with aimless moves. Maybe he feels uncomfortable being this far ahead?

Garrett
28-10-2008, 10:46 AM
yeah I'd say Anand would be feeling uncomfortable.

There's a bit at stake.

bobby1972
28-10-2008, 10:50 AM
its just that kramnik has found a shortcut to the loo:P

Davidflude
28-10-2008, 02:22 PM
look at the photos art the Chessbase website. I especially liki the kiwi with magificent maori tatoos and a kilt. He is probably from Otago.

ER
29-10-2008, 01:01 AM
its just that kramnik has found a shortcut to the loo:P

Or did Anand lose his way toward it? :P

ER
29-10-2008, 01:03 AM
look at the photos art the Chessbase website. I especially liki the kiwi with magificent maori tatoos and a kilt. He is probably from Otago.

I liked the sheila who recovered from illness and will take her position next game! :)

Garvinator
29-10-2008, 01:35 AM
I liked the sheila who recovered from illness and will take her position next game! :)
I just prefer that we are still talking about possibilities for the next game, rather than post mortems from this ten game match.

Ian Murray
29-10-2008, 06:16 AM
Kramnik keeps his hopes alive with a win in Game 10 - Anand 6-4 Kramnik. Is it really possible .....

I'm relying on Anand to close it out with a draw next game, thus validating my +2 poll prediction

Garrett
29-10-2008, 06:43 AM
Kramnik keeps his hopes alive with a win in Game 10 - Anand 6-4 Kramnik. Is it really possible .....

I'm relying on Anand to close it out with a draw next game, thus validating my +2 poll prediction

I'd say you're odds-on too Ian.

Kramnik will have to go for it and if Anand gets a winning position he'll probably offer the draw rather then press for the win.

Cheers
Garrett.

Miranda
29-10-2008, 07:19 AM
Nah, I don't think Anand will offer a draw. It seems so unsportsmanlike to offer a draw when accepcting that will clearly make you world champion.

Ian Murray
29-10-2008, 07:41 AM
Nah, I don't think Anand will offer a draw. It seems so unsportsmanlike to offer a draw when accepcting that will clearly make you world champion.
In theory yes, but in practice when neither player can make any further progress the draw offer is the sportsmanlike optionn.

Kevin Bonham
29-10-2008, 08:15 AM
Nah, I don't think Anand will offer a draw. It seems so unsportsmanlike to offer a draw when accepcting that will clearly make you world champion.

If he was in a clearly won position it probably wouldn't be considered unsporting. (Of course if he was in a clearly won position he may as well just win it!)

TheJoker
29-10-2008, 10:33 AM
Kramnik will have to go for it and if Anand gets a winning position he'll probably offer the draw rather then press for the win.

If Kramnik's smart he won't accept any draw offer by Anand. If he does it means he loses. By forcing Anand to play out the position at least there is a chance of an Anand blunder.

Of course he might not having any "fighting spirit" left and could elect to save face.

bobby1972
29-10-2008, 10:55 AM
best scenario kramnik wins tonight the in next game gets a winning posy early and blunders horribly to draw.:P

pax
29-10-2008, 10:55 AM
Nah, I don't think Anand will offer a draw. It seems so unsportsmanlike to offer a draw when accepcting that will clearly make you world champion.

Put it this way. Kramnik knows that Anand will accept a draw at virtually any point in the game. Anand knows that Kramnik knows this. Anand will not offer, because the draw is practically on the table the whole time.

Capablanca-Fan
29-10-2008, 02:37 PM
If he was in a clearly won position it probably wouldn't be considered unsporting. (Of course if he was in a clearly won position he may as well just win it!)
Euwe was in this position in the last game of his 1935 title win against Alekhin. Euwe told Alekhine right at the start that he was prepared at any time to accept a draw. Alekhin found himself in a totally lost position, and offered a draw instead of a resignation, and Euwe accepted.

bobby1972
29-10-2008, 02:55 PM
botvinnik was apawn up in his last game against bronstein he should have played on and then bronstein would have lost and would have had nothing to cry about botvinnik crushed him in tournaments after that crushed him,just like keres kgbrushed him he he he .

Capablanca-Fan
29-10-2008, 03:23 PM
botvinnik was apawn up in his last game against bronstein he should have played on and then bronstein would have lost and would have had nothing to cry about botvinnik crushed him in tournaments after that crushed him,just like keres kgbrushed him he he he .
Botvinnik was also vastly superior in his last game with Smyslov in 1954. He also had a good plus score against Keres before 1948, and was hot favorite to win the match tournament.

Kevin Bonham
30-10-2008, 12:59 AM
I notice that Ian Rogers' comments in his Crikey article about game ten strongly indicate that Rogers considers Kramnik to be the current world champion:


the soon-to-be new World Chess Champion Viswanathan Anand.


Russian or Soviet born players have held the top chess title for all but three years of the past 70 -- Bobby Fischer interrupting the sequence -- but that era seemed to be coming to an end.


Kramnik has shown that he won’t give up the title he has held since beating Kasparov in 2000 without a fight.

Also Ian's preview article did not mention Mexico at all.

Basil
30-10-2008, 01:03 AM
Where's Mr Metric? I've just reviewed the poll in this thread, probably for the first time and noted that the better rated players (on chesschat) were sharply skewed towards a Krammers victory. I think there's something in that for all of us. Pray tell when someone works out what it is !

eclectic
30-10-2008, 01:07 AM
mr metric has been struck dumb for some time and mistakenly believes he has seen the messiah elsewhere :rolleyes:

Basil
30-10-2008, 01:13 AM
I was staggered to see this position appear on the board after 10 or so moves. White to play.

r1b1kb1r/1p3p1p/p1np1p2/4qp2/4P3/1NNQ4/PPP3PP/2KR1B1R w kq - 0 1

At first blush it looked like something a primary school player would fiddle into (for black)
-- triple pawns (albeit one possibly on the way out)
-- huge development retardation and possibly more

How could a world champ put himself in that position out of the opening I asked myself. "Gunner, I said ..." Never mind.

Out of abject curiosity I put the posi into a box and the box DID NOT have a heart attack. So as I stared at the position more, I decided that it wasn't so bad after all. But it was easy enough to reach that conclusion after
-- a box assured me
-- Krammers assured me

Funny old game, chess.

Basil
30-10-2008, 01:21 AM
I mean how many of us would chance upon a game in this position at our local club between two equal players and think black is about to get:
-- sliced and diced in the centre
-- else pay for an exposed king
-- and lack of development

Chessdom's GM commentary shortly after this move said of black "Kramnik spent a lot of time over this move and now the clock readings are equal: 1.10 1.10. Nevertheless, it seems to(o) weird to be good".

Kevin Bonham
30-10-2008, 07:59 AM
Congrats to Ian Murray, littlesprout85 and Miranda for correctly tipping the winner and margin.

Final game was quite bizarre and the draw offer is either generous or weak depending upon one's leanings. Yes white is clearly better but even by the standards of world champions are there really no winning chances at all for black there?

Davidflude
30-10-2008, 08:45 AM
I was staggered to see this position appear on the board after 10 or so moves. White to play.

r1b1kb1r/1p3p1p/p1np1p2/4qp2/4P3/1NNQ4/PPP3PP/2KR1B1R w kq - 0 1

At first blush it looked like something a primary school player would fiddle into (for black)
-- triple pawns (albeit one possibly on the way out)
-- huge development retardation and possibly more

How could a world champ put himself in that position out of the opening I asked myself. "Gunner, I said ..." Never mind.

Out of abject curiosity I put the posi into a box and the box DID NOT have a heart attack. So as I stared at the position more, I decided that it wasn't so bad after all. But it was easy enough to reach that conclusion after
-- a box assured me
-- Krammers assured me

Funny old game, chess.

If you are playing for a win at all costs this position is totally unsuitable. White can play to kill all black chances in several ways which is what Anand did. The problem that Kramnnik faced was that the other lines that he might have played instead of Qc7 (Qb6 and Nb8-d7) have been analyzed out to draws. He could have tried the Polugaevsky variation which is chaotic but probably more suited to Anand's Style than Kramnik's.

ER
30-10-2008, 08:55 AM
If you are playing for a win at all costs this position is totally unsuitable. White can play to kill all black chances in several ways which is what Anand did. The problem that Kramnnik faced was that the other lines that he might have played instead of Qc7 (Qb6 and Nb8-d7) have been analyzed out to draws. He could have tried the Polugaevsky variation which is chaotic but probably more suited to Anand's Style than Kramnik's.

Hi David!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Malcolm Pyke, showed this to me once! It really leads to incredibly complicated positions. Did Polu played it himself in serious games? Has it ever been played in WCC matches?
CAGLES

Davidflude
30-10-2008, 10:42 AM
Hi David!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Malcolm Pyke, showed this to me once! It really leads to incredibly complicated positions. Did Polu played it himself in serious games? Has it ever been played in WCC matches?
CAGLES

Polugaevsky used to have several notebooks full of secret analysis. He used to play it a lot.

I have my own secret line which may not be sound but which would scare the living daylights out of black players.

Igor_Goldenberg
30-10-2008, 10:49 AM
I have my own secret line which may not be sound but which would scare the living daylights out of black players.
What about Asian and European players?

Adamski
30-10-2008, 10:55 AM
look at the photos art the Chessbase website. I especially liki the kiwi with magificent maori tatoos and a kilt. He is probably from Otago.Can this kiwi with the kilt still be seen at http://www.chessbase.com/? I couldn't find it. :(

Congrats to Anand who is deservedly still the WC (World Champ, not loo!).

MichaelBaron
30-10-2008, 11:14 AM
Polugaevsky used to have several notebooks full of secret analysis. He used to play it a lot.

I have my own secret line which may not be sound but which would scare the living daylights out of black players.

Polugoevsky Variation does not appear to be played much by top-level players these days. Not sure if it has been refuted or not though.:hmm:

bobby1972
30-10-2008, 01:17 PM
kaspa`s take on the match is very funny.
".... This result ends the illusion that Kramnik is a great match player." he he he .

Capablanca-Fan
30-10-2008, 02:27 PM
kaspa`s take on the match is very funny.
".... This result ends the illusion that Kramnik is a great match player." he he he .
What does it say about the one who lost a match to him without taking a single game off him?

Phil Bourke
30-10-2008, 05:13 PM
What does it say about the one who lost a match to him without taking a single game off him?
Agreed. Kasparov can be very bitter and vindictive whenever he feels like he has been slighted. Ian Rogers has a nice recollection to that effect.

Capablanca-Fan
30-10-2008, 05:55 PM
Agreed. Kasparov can be very bitter and vindictive whenever he feels like he has been slighted. Ian Rogers has a nice recollection to that effect.
Where? I remember the disgraceful episode where Ian was done out of a brilliancy prize at the Manila Olympiad 1992 for his game against Milos (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1098937), since Kasparov was both an entrant and a judge; the clear conflict of interest apparently didn't bother him.

With Kramnik, Kasparov might be especially bitter because he had mentored him and urged his selection for that olympic team (and justifiably so; Kramnik crushed his opponents).

Kevin Bonham
30-10-2008, 10:24 PM
Will be interesting to see what the way back is for Kramnik now (if any) since in theory he has got to win the FIDE World Cup 2009 to make the match to determine the challenger for the 2010/2011 World Championship. The World Cups being little better than a slightly weighted lottery, that means he would probably have to look at the 2010/2011 Grand Prix as a ticket to the next challenge match after that. Most likely if FIDE stick to their guns water pistols concerning the format of the upcoming cycles, it will be at least five years before Kramnik gets another non-knockout shot (which makes it extremely likely he will never be World Champion again).

I suspect the FIDE system will need modification however. The weak link is that the matches between the Grand Prix and World Cup winners will often be unmarketable mismatches since the winner of the Grand Prix will always be a credible title contender while the World Cup winner can be anyone from the top 50 or so players.

eclectic
30-10-2008, 10:27 PM
actually, kevin, with all this nonsense still going is the title REALLY unified?

i suspect not

Phil Bourke
30-10-2008, 10:36 PM
Where? I remember the disgraceful episode where Ian was done out of a brilliancy prize at the Manila Olympiad 1992 for his game against Milos (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1098937), since Kasparov was both an entrant and a judge; the clear conflict of interest apparently didn't bother him.

With Kramnik, Kasparov might be especially bitter because he had mentored him and urged his selection for that olympic team (and justifiably so; Kramnik crushed his opponents).
Google Kasparov v Radjabov when Radjabov won as a 15 year old :)

Garvinator
30-10-2008, 10:58 PM
actually, kevin, with all this nonsense still going is the title REALLY unified?

i suspect not
I am yet to see any mainstream chess website try and claim that Anand is not THE world champion. In fact, they have been saying that he IS the world champion and also that he has done the three peat- Match World Champion, Tournament World Champion and Knockout World Champion.

I think the only way any claim could have been that the winner of Anand-Kramnik was not automatically world champion is if the Topalov-Kamsky match was confirmed to go ahead. Then some could try and argue that Anand-Kramnik was really a semi final and that only when someone won the Grand Final could they be called the undisputed champion.

Now that Topalov-Kamsky (or as some of us have been saying all along ;) ) does not look like going ahead, there are not even technical barriers to any claim that Anand is the current world champion.

CameronD
30-10-2008, 11:07 PM
Why doesn't FIDE grow a backbone

They should have a condition of playing in rated games that players who qualify must play these matches at the place and location of FIDE choosing with payment to the players of at least x dollars (unless they have an acceptable reason) or be suspended from all FIDE events for 4 years.

Other sports wouldn't tolerate a team not turning up in a semi-final. There'd be mass suspensions and fines.





I am yet to see any mainstream chess website try and claim that Anand is not THE world champion. In fact, they have been saying that he IS the world champion and also that he has done the three peat- Match World Champion, Tournament World Champion and Knockout World Champion.

I think the only way any claim could have been that the winner of Anand-Kramnik was not automatically world champion is if the Topalov-Kamsky match was confirmed to go ahead. Then some could try and argue that Anand-Kramnik was really a semi final and that only when someone won the Grand Final could they be called the undisputed champion.

Now that Topalov-Kamsky (or as some of us have been saying all along ;) ) does not look like going ahead, there are not even technical barriers to any claim that Anand is the current world champion.

William AS
30-10-2008, 11:16 PM
Why doesn't FIDE grow a backbone

Other sports wouldn't tolerate a team not turning up in a semi-final. There'd be mass suspensions and fines.

This from a chessplayer who claims Chess is not a sport? :confused: ;)

Garvinator
30-10-2008, 11:25 PM
This from a chessplayer who claims Chess is not a sport? :confused: ;)
Boom Boom!!

Capablanca-Fan
31-10-2008, 09:19 AM
Google Kasparov v Radjabov when Radjabov won as a 15 year old :)
Right, got it!

Ian Murray
31-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Nor is Gazza beyond reproach when it comes to playing by the rules. Remember the infamous take-back incident against Judit Polgar -
http://anecdotes.chessdom.com/kasparov-polgar?

peter_parr
03-11-2008, 12:27 PM
See the Sydney Morning Herald for all games and sensible comment.
Any other extra newspaper coverage in Australia for the match?

News (http://www.chessdiscountsales.com/news/newsindex.htm)