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View Full Version : Chesschat freestyle tournament number 4



Garvinator
13-09-2008, 10:43 PM
Only two games remain in chesschat tournament number 7, so time to start collecting entries for freestyle tournament number 4.

Opening entries now.

Garrett
14-09-2008, 07:07 AM
I'll probably have a go, what are the rules ?

*edit* actually I am more interested in time controls, I know what Freestyle means.

cheers
Garrett

Garvinator
14-09-2008, 01:24 PM
I'll probably have a go, what are the rules ?

*edit* actually I am more interested in time controls, I know what Freestyle means.

cheers
Garrett
What time control do you guys want?

Alexrules01
14-09-2008, 06:23 PM
I'll join up again!

Garvinator
14-09-2008, 06:46 PM
I'll join up again!
Are you aware that this tournament is freestyle? Meaning engines, computers, opening books and endgame tablebase use are all legal and encouraged.

Kevin Bonham
14-09-2008, 08:39 PM
I would probably need to be able to take at least one timeout in order to participate. I am hoping to be away for slightly more than a week continuously during mid-October.

Aside from that I'd be happy with 7 days/move flat or with the time limit used for CC tournament 7. I would not be happy with a faster flat limit and would not play if one was used.

Garvinator
14-09-2008, 10:25 PM
I would probably need to be able to take at least one timeout in order to participate. I am hoping to be away for slightly more than a week continuously during mid-October. Understood.


Aside from that I'd be happy with 7 days/move flat or with the time limit used for CC tournament 7. I would not be happy with a faster flat limit and would not play if one was used.
Either one is fine by me. For the time control used in cct7, I am thinking that the initial number of days (30) is too high and should be reduced.

Alexrules01
14-09-2008, 10:47 PM
Are you aware that this tournament is freestyle? Meaning engines, computers, opening books and endgame tablebase use are all legal and encouraged.
I am aware now, sounds like fun!
So sign me up
And the chesschat tournament 7 time controls were good, i say stick with that!

Garvinator
15-09-2008, 02:10 PM
Four entries so far:

ggrayggray
Garrett
alexrules01
Kevin Bonham

Anyone else?

Samson
15-09-2008, 02:34 PM
Is your avatar Mount Buller?

Dougy
15-09-2008, 07:19 PM
Hmmm... I'll join in. This looks interesting. Any time control decided yet?

Garvinator
15-09-2008, 07:35 PM
Hmmm... I'll join in. This looks interesting. Any time control decided yet?
Hello Dougy and welcome.

Looks like the same time control as cc tournament 7 will be used. So it is 30 moves (initial time) plus 3 days per move. Exactly the same as otb fischer type time control.

Also a player must make one move inside of seven days in each game.

Just confirming, are you aware that this is a freestyle tournament?

ER
15-09-2008, 08:56 PM
count me in boss!
CAGLES

Dougy
15-09-2008, 09:07 PM
Just confirming, are you aware that this is a freestyle tournament?

Yep, understood. (:

Garvinator
15-09-2008, 09:24 PM
Six entries now:

ggrayggray
Garrett
alexrules01
Kevin Bonham
dougy
justaknight

Garvinator
15-09-2008, 11:09 PM
Six entries now:

ggrayggray
Garrett
alexrules01
Kevin Bonham
dougy
justaknight
I will close entries one week from now.

Garrett
16-09-2008, 05:03 PM
should be interesting.

I have a fairly simple PC (P4 3.0GB) I built in May, 2005 running Fritz 11 and Chessbase megabase 2007 which has not been updated.

I undersstand Rybka is a better computer program, but cant be bothered buying it because Fritz (herr von joseph Fritz at that) has no problem flogging me.

I've not bothered updating the PC yet either ('cept the monitor) as I don't usually play the latest games.

What rigs are everyone else running ?

Cheers
Garrett.

Alexrules01
17-09-2008, 08:25 PM
Umm.. I got like 1.6 GHz RAM with Fritz 10 running on 2006 database, so I'm probably going to get snapped by Rybka and Fritz 11 :D

Dougy
17-09-2008, 08:37 PM
Umm.. I got like 1.6 GHz RAM with Fritz 10 running on 2006 database, so I'm probably going to get snapped by Rybka and Fritz 11 :D

My comp. is comparable to this.

Garvinator
17-09-2008, 08:49 PM
ggrayggray
Garrett
alexrules01
Kevin Bonham
dougy
justaknight

I did announce that I would close entries one week from now, but taking into consideration that no one else has expressed interest in playing, I will close entries 11:59pm Thursday 18th September.

Garvinator
19-09-2008, 01:22 AM
All games are now up, so everyone can get started.

Reminder to all participants from previous tournaments, especially those playing their first freestyle tournament on here.

Please make sure that the move you post in the game is the move you want to play. Incorrect move notation is a binding move and can not be retracted, if the move is legal of course.

So please be careful.

Also, after a game is finished, it is appreciated if one of the participants from the finished game writes the result in this thread, so I am aware of it and can adjust the cross table as required.

Garrett
19-09-2008, 07:25 AM
thanks for setting everything up Garvin.

Good luck everyone !

Dougy
19-09-2008, 02:26 PM
Yes, thanks Garvin. All the best everyone (:

Garvinator
19-09-2008, 03:24 PM
Conditional moves are allowed and even multiple variations if a person wants to go that far.

Be careful, there are no 'takebacks' in conditional variations. So if you propose a long string of moves and your opponent varies half way through your proposed variation, you are stuck with it.

Discussion point- Tablebase wins.

In freestyle, it is possible to have a tablebase win that is over 100 moves, but by the otb laws of chess, this would be a draw after 50 moves. Looking at corro sites, the laws differ on this. Some have a rule that if it is a tablebase win, the 50 move rule is waived, others do not.

I wish to propose a blanket rule- a player can claim win/draw once a tablebase position is reached, be it either a win or draw. So as soon as the 5/6 man tbs are showing draw, the game is over.

Thoughts of other entrants?

Garrett
19-09-2008, 04:12 PM
My thoughts

yes agreed.

Once the table-bases show a result then claim regardless of how many moves.

We don't want games dragging on and the 50 move rule was around before computers and/or tablebases and was not designed for them.

Alexrules01
19-09-2008, 04:14 PM
I have never understood, what is a tablebase?

Garrett
19-09-2008, 04:20 PM
Hi Alex

A 5 piece table-base is a database of every possible position with 5 pieces (kings included) which has the best possible moves for both sides leading to a forced result. Once you get to a position with 5 pieces you don't need your computer (or at least it's processing) anymore - the information (best possible moves and results) is in the tablebase.

A 6 piece table base is the same but with 6 pieces.

I don't think anyone has produced a 7 piece table base yet - it would be huge and take a long time to compute. I think I have a 6 piece table base which came with chessbase. It is about half a dozen DVD's worth and is still in the shrink-wrap.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers
Garrett.

Kevin Bonham
19-09-2008, 10:43 PM
Thoughts of other entrants?

I agree. In a previous freestyle tournament I offered an opponent a draw the instant a tablebase draw was reached even though (a) I was a pawn up (b) I had no idea if he was using tablebases.

Concerning my schedule, at this stage it appears I will need a time-out from October 12 until October 20.


Please make sure that the move you post in the game is the move you want to play. Incorrect move notation is a binding move and can not be retracted, if the move is legal of course.

So please be careful.

Or you will lose your queen on move ten. :lol:

Good luck to all my opponents, not that they will necessarily need it. ;)

Aaron Guthrie
20-09-2008, 03:01 PM
1.f4 predictable :P e5Next time when creating the game against Kevin you should start with "If 1.f4 then e5". :)

I don't think anyone has produced a 7 piece table base yetBourzutschky and Konoval have, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablebase

In freestyle, it is possible to have a tablebase win that is over 100 moves, but by the otb laws of chess, this would be a draw after 50 moves. Looking at corro sites, the laws differ on this. Some have a rule that if it is a tablebase win, the 50 move rule is waived, others do not.The tablebases, at least when I was using them, didn't actually give you the shortest mate. Something weird about them giving you conversions from one tablebase (say 5 man) to another (say 4 man). Not that this makes a difference here.

Kevin Bonham
20-09-2008, 04:20 PM
Next time when creating the game against Kevin you should start with "If 1.f4 then e5". :)

When I was younger I had a rather dogmatic view that From's Gambit was absolute rubbish (probably unduly influenced by watching Nigel Frame accept it and then squash it in at least fifteen rated games in a row). It amuses me to attempt to test this view in a freestyle setting; unfortunately my previous two attempts were derailed by a feeble move in one and a queen-losing typo in the other!

Garvinator
20-09-2008, 05:42 PM
It amuses me to attempt to test this view in a freestyle setting; unfortunately my previous two attempts were derailed by a feeble move in one and a queen-losing typo in the other!
So how are you going to lose this time ;)

Garvinator
21-09-2008, 12:23 AM
Three in favour, no one has spoken against the proposed rule, so the following is now a rule. I have modified the original proposal to allow for players who wish to resign ;)


A player can claim a result once a tablebase position is reached. So as soon as the 5/6 man tbs are showing a result and the result is claimed and verified by myself, the game is over.

Ivanchuk_Fan
21-09-2008, 02:32 PM
Are you allowed to comment on other people's games in progress, as long as it is about the earlier moves? For example, if it is move 10, discussing the position after move 7?

Capablanca-Fan
21-09-2008, 03:06 PM
I think I have a 6 piece table base which came with chessbase. It is about half a dozen DVD's worth and is still in the shrink-wrap.
A tablebase is available online (http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=en)on which you can enter any position up to 6 pieces.

Basil
21-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Are you allowed to comment on other people's games in progress, as long as it is about the earlier moves? For example, if it is move 10, discussing the position after move 7?
I should imagine not. In most cases perhaps there would be zero/ minimal effect. However, if themes are involved and ones that have apparently passed, a player may subsequently claim that a discussed historical position robs him of further variations on that theme. The degree of likelihood may increase if the player is seeing further than the commentator!

Then again, some pointies may just be upset at the commentary.

Garvinator
21-09-2008, 04:52 PM
Are you allowed to comment on other people's games in progress, as long as it is about the earlier moves? For example, if it is move 10, discussing the position after move 7?
Same rules as for otb chess. The answer is no.

Aaron Guthrie
21-09-2008, 05:03 PM
Same rules as for otb chess. The answer is no.So this isn't *anything* goes chess?

Capablanca-Fan
21-09-2008, 10:21 PM
So this isn't *anything* goes chess?
That's strange. IIRC, I was informed that freestyle means you could ask Kramnik for advice, for example.

Kevin Bonham
21-09-2008, 10:25 PM
That's strange. IIRC, I was informed that freestyle means you could ask Kramnik for advice, for example.

I don't think that's what Garvin's saying; I think he's saying that Kramnik's not allowed to post the advice on chesschat.

Whether Garvin has the jurisdiction to ban kibbitzing by non-participants from chesschat freestyle tournaments is another question entirely! :lol:

Aaron Guthrie
21-09-2008, 10:38 PM
Not a rule about what help a player can try to receive, but rather about unwanted help (or just plain interfering) or some such. That's reasonable.

Kevin Bonham
21-09-2008, 10:40 PM
Yes, I'm sure if anyone was offering unsolicited sensitive analysis one of the other mods would zap it. I might not as I have a conflict of interest!

Dougy
22-09-2008, 06:04 PM
I think I've already learned a bit about some of the openings I play as a result of this tournament. (: Interesting...

ER
22-09-2008, 08:13 PM
I think I've already learned a bit about some of the openings I play as a result of this tournament. (: Interesting...

lol you 've seen nothin yet son! :P
Cheers and good luck!

ER
23-09-2008, 05:28 AM
Fludeyyyyyyyyyyyyy????
where do i buy myself a Rybca or whatever his name is?
Cheers
Elliott

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2008, 11:48 PM
Either one is fine by me. For the time control used in cct7, I am thinking that the initial number of days (30) is too high and should be reduced.

Actually I've been thinking along similar lines for future tournaments. It might be interesting to try the following sometime:

* Three day increment for each move, cumulative from a base of zero (eg must play move 1 by day 3, move 2 by day 6, move 3 by day 9, etc)
* Seven days maximum for any given move.

This would have the advantage of mpre quickly weeding out the sort of slackers who time out just out of the opening, and wouldn't have any disadvantage that I can see. It would encourage people to get into their games quickly and is easy to calculate. Of course there would have to be allowances for anyone expecting to be offline for even a few days early in the event.

Not that there are any problems in this tournament so far; thus far (touchwood!) everyone's been committed and is moving reasonably quickly.

ER
02-10-2008, 06:58 PM
Any rewards for fast movers? ie two moves instead of one at a time of their of their choice? :)
CAGLES!

Garvinator
03-10-2008, 02:00 PM
Actually I've been thinking along similar lines for future tournaments. It might be interesting to try the following sometime:

* Three day increment for each move, cumulative from a base of zero (eg must play move 1 by day 3, move 2 by day 6, move 3 by day 9, etc)
* Seven days maximum for any given move. I agree with the general principle, but think for move one it should still be seven days. This gives players who have signed up quite a bit of time in advance to be notified and see the notification if they have not been online for a couple of days.

Tournaments do tend to start rather quickly after entries dry up, so it is unreasonable to expect that one player could miss time out if they do not check chesschat for a couple of days.

Aaron Guthrie
03-10-2008, 02:53 PM
I have an idea for the next freestyle tournament, but probably not a very practical one. A secret sub-forum where non-players can discuss the games. First problem, the players make a hydra and then see the analysis. Solution, make secret forum avaliable only by request, and then only give it to known people. I think it would be pretty cool if something like that worked- if I were playing I'd love to see the comments people made as the games went on.

Garrett
03-10-2008, 04:15 PM
yeah good idea. It would be good for players to type comments somewhere that magically end up in this secret location too. It would be interesting to see where the players are overriding the computer. Being my first serious (well semi serious) computer tourney I am finding it interesting to note when I don't agree with the computer.

Cheers
Garrett.

CameronD
03-10-2008, 05:52 PM
I have an idea for the next freestyle tournament, but probably not a very practical one. A secret sub-forum where non-players can discuss the games. First problem, the players make a hydra and then see the analysis. Solution, make secret forum avaliable only by request, and then only give it to known people. I think it would be pretty cool if something like that worked- if I were playing I'd love to see the comments people made as the games went on.

Have the subforum in the coffee lounge where a poster needs 200 posts. It would be appropiate as the analysis would meet the dribble requirement factor in the lounge.

Kevin Bonham
03-10-2008, 08:16 PM
I agree with the general principle, but think for move one it should still be seven days. This gives players who have signed up quite a bit of time in advance to be notified and see the notification if they have not been online for a couple of days.

Seems fair enough.

Garvinator
04-10-2008, 05:21 PM
I have an idea for the next freestyle tournament, but probably not a very practical one. A secret sub-forum where non-players can discuss the games. First problem, the players make a hydra and then see the analysis. Solution, make secret forum avaliable only by request, and then only give it to known people. I think it would be pretty cool if something like that worked- if I were playing I'd love to see the comments people made as the games went on.
I think this could work and may not be that difficult. All that is required is a private sub forum and those wanting access to be able to post have to pm the mods/admins, tell them who they are etc.

It would have to be made clear to all those who are granted access that after the tournament is finished, the forum will become public. Not only to allow open discussion from the players involved, but to also stop potential 'back stabbing' of players.

Desmond
06-10-2008, 04:47 PM
Why not simply have it in an open forum? It is freestyle, so there is no rules to break. If players didn't want to see their game discussed while in progress, they could simply not read the thread.

Kevin Bonham
07-10-2008, 04:58 PM
Concerning my schedule, at this stage it appears I will need a time-out from October 12 until October 20.

What will happen is I'll be away from very early on Oct 13 until at least the evening of Oct 20.

Also to get back on October 20 I have to get a boat from one island to another on the 19th then fly back from the other island on the 20th. Any weather or technical problems affecting either could delay my return.

So I propose that the seven-day timeout rule be suspended for both players for all my games from Oct 13 - Oct 20.

Garvinator
09-10-2008, 04:34 PM
What will happen is I'll be away from very early on Oct 13 until at least the evening of Oct 20.

Also to get back on October 20 I have to get a boat from one island to another on the 19th then fly back from the other island on the 20th. Any weather or technical problems affecting either could delay my return.

So I propose that the seven-day timeout rule be suspended for both players for all my games from Oct 13 - Oct 20.
Of course you will not time out for being away and having given advanced notice of such. The 'clock' will resume from October 20.

Garvinator
11-10-2008, 08:53 PM
Not that there are any problems in this tournament so far; thus far (touchwood!) everyone's been committed and is moving reasonably quickly.
:hmm: :uhoh:

Kevin Bonham
11-10-2008, 09:04 PM
He hasn't been online since 7 October and hasn't posted since 4 Oct. Strange as he was moving regularly in his games until suddenly stopping.

Garvinator
11-10-2008, 09:14 PM
He hasn't been online since 7 October and hasn't posted since 4 Oct. Strange as he was moving regularly in his games until suddenly stopping.Hope everything is alright.

Alexrules01
14-10-2008, 06:43 PM
I'd like to come and post here and apologise for not moving for so long
Few things have got in the way (me being sick for 6 days was the biggest) and I completely forgot about the games.
Sorry for the inconvienance

Garrett
14-10-2008, 07:00 PM
Glad to hear you are okay Alex.

No real harm done.

Cheers
Garrett.

ER
15-10-2008, 08:57 AM
Hi Alex,
I hope u have everything under control now!
Be well son!
Cheers

Garvinator
15-10-2008, 10:25 AM
What will happen is I'll be away from very early on Oct 13 until at least the evening of Oct 20.

Also to get back on October 20 I have to get a boat from one island to another on the 19th then fly back from the other island on the 20th. Any weather or technical problems affecting either could delay my return.

So I propose that the seven-day timeout rule be suspended for both players for all my games from Oct 13 - Oct 20.
Reminder to all participants of Kevin Bonham's explained absence.

Dougy
15-10-2008, 12:29 PM
Ah oops... well, that's a relief - I thought one of my games with him was forgotten about since it was on the second page of games. I've deleted my *bump* message. (:

Kevin Bonham
20-10-2008, 11:15 PM
Ah oops... well, that's a relief - I thought one of my games with him was forgotten about since it was on the second page of games.

I tried to move in all my games as close to when I went away as I could, but I was procrastinating about that one because my position is so dreadful. :D

Anyway I am back on board now and while a bit too tired this evening for anything except messing about, I will be getting back into my games from tomorrow.

Sometimes I will use up the full seven days on a given move anyway, if the position is really critical.

Kevin Bonham
23-10-2008, 12:54 PM
Just letting opponents know I'll be offline and not moving in my games this weekend - there is some chance I will move in some on Sunday or Monday night but barring that it could be Tuesday before I make any more moves.

Kevin Bonham
27-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Comment re situation at the end of ggrayggray - justaknight:

The matter that I was asked to rule on is clearly moot as Black has resigned, which ends the game. I am therefore not giving a ruling on whether justaknight actually played 31...a5 as it is academic to the outcome and there is no evidence that justaknight cares whether the record shows the move as being played.

However, for the record, I think we need to clarify what happens when an opponent has only one legal move for the future.

In my view if a player wants to make a move, note that their opponent has only one legal reply, and then state their reply to that reply, they should do so in a conditional-move-like format, eg:

"If *blah* (only legal move) then *bleh*"

or "After *blah* then *bleh*"

rather than just listing the move as if already made.

My reasons for this suggestion are:

1. The increased potential for confusion (of course that confusion is the fault of the reader but it is nonetheless best to reduce the risk of it happening) when two moves are made at the same time without an explicit alert to this happening.

2. The possibility that instead of just making the specific move and awaiting a reply, the opponent might instead wish to (i) resign without making that move or (ii) make that move and offer a draw at that time.

3. The possibility that the opponent would like to take a certain amount of time to play the forced move (as they can when accepting a conditional) as a way of manipulating what seven days are covered by their window for making their next move should the opponent reply quickly.

Basil
27-10-2008, 09:54 PM
I support this. I also add the element of appropriate behaviour. These are comments in general. I will now go and have a look at the game (thread) for the first time.

Garvinator
27-10-2008, 10:15 PM
(ii) make that move and offer a draw at that time.
I agree with Kevin's comments. I have quoted the draw part of his whole reply as it is the main reason I agree.

ER
28-10-2008, 01:40 AM
ok with me too! Cheers!

Garrett
28-10-2008, 05:05 AM
agreed.

ER
11-11-2008, 12:23 AM
Due to White's superior position to which I can only juxtapose passive defensive moves with no hope for a draw, please accept my resignation. Good luck to Kevin for the rest of the tournament and thanks for the game!
Cheers
Elliott

Garrett
14-11-2008, 04:36 AM
We are continuing the game as a 'friendly', see game for comments.

cheers
Garrett.

Garrett
14-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Sorry Gentleman, but the resignation stands in the tournament game. The situation is very similar to otb play where a person decides to play a combination, but plays it in the wrong order, only to see it go all horribly wrong.

Of course if you guys want to continue on in a friendly game, but all means go ahead.

Just keep the noise down while other competition games are still going ;) :whistle:

Garvin

In my post #59 I resigned.
In my post #62 I confirmed my resignation.
In the heading of my post #64 I clearly state "friendly".

who exactly are you talking to (Sorry Gentlemen). If you are just talking to yourself please take it somewhere else.

Cheers
Garrett.

Garrett
24-11-2008, 05:29 PM
Dougy - Garrett : Game drawn.

Cheers
Garrett

Garrett
27-11-2008, 06:23 AM
Hi everyone

My computer is crashing at home.

Could I please have a one week timeout, starting now, to enable me to get it fixed ?

cheers
Garrett.

**edit** - it may not take that long to get fixed.

Garvinator
27-11-2008, 07:34 AM
Hi everyone

My computer is crashing at home.

Could I please have a one week timeout, starting now, to enable me to get it fixed ?

cheers
Garrett.

**edit** - it may not take that long to get fixed.
One week from now granted.

Dougy
04-12-2008, 10:38 AM
I'm going to be in Auckland from 15-19 December, so I probably won't be able to respond from 14-20th.

All this might be moot if my last game is finished by then; nonetheless I thought I would mention it.

Garrett
04-12-2008, 05:43 PM
Garrett - Dougy : Draw Agreed.

Garrett
21-12-2008, 04:31 PM
Kevin Bonham - Garrett : Draw agreed.

Kevin Bonham
23-12-2008, 12:46 AM
No more moves from me until late 27th or 28th December.

Garrett
24-12-2008, 06:17 AM
Garrett - Garvin 0-1.

Kevin Bonham
22-01-2009, 10:33 PM
Garrett - KB agreed drawn.

Well done Garvin on a now guaranteed (not that there was any real doubt anyway!) 1st outright.

Garrett
23-01-2009, 02:37 AM
yes well played Garvin :clap:

Cheers
Garrett

Desmond
23-01-2009, 08:32 AM
onya garvo

Capablanca-Fan
23-01-2009, 05:03 PM
Yes, Garvo seems very strong at this form of chess.

Kevin Bonham
14-02-2009, 10:53 PM
Good tournament. Probably the most successful freestyle tournament so far in terms of numbers of entrants who were at least trying to go the distance and taking it seriously enough to present some sort of challenge.

Garvinator
14-02-2009, 11:00 PM
Good tournament. Probably the most successful freestyle tournament so far in terms of numbers of entrants who were at least trying to go the distance and taking it seriously enough to present some sort of challenge.
Now only if mangafranga played ;)