PDA

View Full Version : Caro-Kann Ideas



Intuition
20-07-2008, 06:10 PM
As white I find the caro-kann opening annoying given the boringness and solidarity it generally offers for black.

Can anyone suggest some attacking and sharp lines/ideas for white in this opening?? All I can seem to find on the net is a suggestion for the panov attack but I dont really think its that fantastic.

Thx in advance :cool:

Basil
20-07-2008, 06:11 PM
Never faced it on account of being exclusively a 1.d4 player.

However, I just started playing it as black last week! Sorry about that ;)

Capablanca-Fan
20-07-2008, 07:33 PM
Never faced it on account of being exclusively a 1.d4 player.
No one has ever gone 1.d4 c6 then?


However, I just started playing it as black last week! Sorry about that ;)
Just don't make a habit of it. It's dull.:hmm:

eclectic
20-07-2008, 07:42 PM
No one has ever gone 1.d4 c6 then?

it would only be a caro kann then if gunner then went 2. e4 or transposed into that later


Just don't make a habit of it. It's dull.:hmm:

of only the caro kann were the sicilian played off the back foot (to use cricketing parlance ;))

ER
20-07-2008, 07:52 PM
You use 1 ... c6 against 1. e4 when being tired u don't have the strength to reach c5! And yes, it is bloody boring, but you don't expect something exciting from someone who plays 2. Bg5 in a 1. d4 opening! :P
CAGLES

Capablanca-Fan
20-07-2008, 07:53 PM
As white I find the caro-kann opening annoying given the boringness and solidarity it generally offers for black.

Can anyone suggest some attacking and sharp lines/ideas for white in this opening?? All I can seem to find on the net is a suggestion for the panov attack but I dont really think its that fantastic.

Thx in advance :cool:
Yeah, speaking of advance, play exactly that.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 now:

NOT the older line 4. Bd3, which gives Black an easy game, exchanging your strong B for his weaker one.

Instead, for good long term play, try 4. Nf3/Be2 like Short (e.g. against Ljubojevic (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1092516))

Or have a look at the sharper lines with4. Nc3 e6 5. g4 Bg6 6. Nge2 with quick h4, with which Kasparov crushed Karpov (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1211232)}

Zwischenzug
20-07-2008, 07:56 PM
How do you feel about the mainline (as shown below)?

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.h5 Bh7 8.Nf3

Capablanca-Fan
20-07-2008, 08:08 PM
How do you feel about the mainline (as shown below)?

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.h5 Bh7 8.Nf3
Certainly a viable line for White to play. Have a look at some games on Chessgames.com with it.

CameronD
20-07-2008, 08:21 PM
This line is in my carokann dvd. If white wants to castle queenside, then he must exchange the light squared bishop off. Otherwise where will the white king go

Capablanca-Fan
20-07-2008, 10:24 PM
This line is in my carokann dvd. If white wants to castle queenside, then he must exchange the light squared bishop off. Otherwise where will the white king go
Yes, in this line White plays Bd3, and it seems best after White plays h4 and h5. But Bd3 is slack in the advance variation.

Kevin Bonham
20-07-2008, 10:26 PM
I considered the Advance but found it didn't really suit my style. I've quite liked the Two Knights line when I've bothered to research it, but haven't learnt it enough to play it

In the Classical (the "main line" given above) I have gained a number of free points by playing not 6.h4 but 6.Nf3. At club level a number of blacks will mess up their theory and play 6...h6 against 6.Nf3 at which point 7.Ne5! is crushing.

Basil
20-07-2008, 11:01 PM
No one has ever gone 1.d4 c6 then?


it would only be a caro kann then if gunner then went 2. e4 or transposed into that later
Jono was referring to my statement that I was exclusively a 1.d4 player.

As for theory ... ha! Wouldn't know the meaning of the word. Only just discovering that my rating would otherwise be considerably higher were it not for this odd thing called 'endgame'.

'Endgame' and 'theory'. Two terms I must explore.

--------

As for dull - not the way I plan on playing the non advance variation ;)

Rincewind
20-07-2008, 11:02 PM
Only just discovering that my rating would otherwise be considerably higher were it not for this odd thing called 'endgame'.

That's the theory anyway.

Aaron Guthrie
21-07-2008, 12:55 AM
That's the theory anyway.Good point, in the caro-kann the terms ("theory" and "endgame") overlap.

Basil
21-07-2008, 01:18 AM
Good point, in the caro-kann the terms ("theory" and "endgame") overlap.
Oh dear. Next!

MichaelBaron
21-07-2008, 01:34 AM
At club level, you can even try 1.e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 :)

Anyway, do not worry about opening. At our level - whoever blunders last - loses so any developing opening moves are good :)

Trent Parker
21-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Ahh the Fantasie variation..... a favorite of a number of my fellow club members at campbelltown!

Carl Gorka
21-07-2008, 08:07 PM
As white I find the caro-kann opening annoying given the boringness and solidarity it generally offers for black.

Can anyone suggest some attacking and sharp lines/ideas for white in this opening?? All I can seem to find on the net is a suggestion for the panov attack but I dont really think its that fantastic.

Thx in advance :cool:

Panov attack where white advances c4-c5 are interesting.

Axiom
21-07-2008, 09:32 PM
The Possum seems to have a paralysing effect on caro kann players.
As generally they seem to be rather insipid control freaks , who try and stave off anxiety as soon as possible.
When faced with the possum , watch for the furrowed brow , the bead of sweat , the agitated mannerism, the mournful lost look, the crazed stare,the edging in the seat , the exasperated gasp, the silent prayer.

I'm sorry, but next to trompists ,the caro-kannists have my least respect.
I identify and empathise with those that suffer ruminations as to how to deal with them.
Play the possum , study it, its not difficult , but like all openings you better know what you're doing !
Report back your findings, i'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
Dr. Kevin Bonham has had success, when he has employed the Possum , albeit in a limited way ( the odd lightning tournament, i understand )
Remember there is no book on the possum, no credible resource on the possum , no published treatise , IT IS UNKOWN TO THE CHESS WORLD !
So what i'm trying to tell you fellow chess players , is that you have the opportunity to not only counter the caro, but stymie the sicilian , scupper the scandi, maul the modern, ax the alekhine, pierce the pirc, and f*** the french.
All in one, all-purpose ready to use opening !
Forget the books , forget the coaches , start winning today !
Whats more , have fun doing it !

You will hear people say , "the possum is crazy , why give up a tempo for nothing ? "
don't listen to these people ( even nigel short described the possum as a "sack of manure" citing the weak g1-a7 diagonal. after i explained how that diagonal could be adequately defended he terminated dialogue ,saying bluntly , that he had given his opinion, and that was it !) they are blinded by protocol , the blind spot being the traded psychological and flexibility plusses of the opening. Not to mention , practical results in the field !
Before you guffaw and scoff , try it , study the possum thread , play it in practice games, play it in serious games , then comment , ok?

eclectic
21-07-2008, 09:40 PM
why don't you replace that dude in your avatar with a possum except go one better by putting its head under the axe! :whistle:

Axiom
21-07-2008, 09:44 PM
why don't you replace that dude in your avatar with a possum except go one better by putting its head under the axe! :whistle:
luckily i can safely assume , that you meant that with the kindest of intentions

Kevin Bonham
21-07-2008, 11:37 PM
Dr. Kevin Bonham has had success, when he has employed the Possum , albeit in a limited way ( the odd lightning tournament, i understand )

Just one lightning game in one lightning tournament, thus far. It was worth it, though.

I play all kinds of stuff in lightning tournaments. In the very first lightning tournament I ever won I played 2.Qe2 against Alekhine's Defence in one game (I had researched this line in depth and satisfied myself that it is garbage, but it is still good for at least a free minute on the clock), and 1.f4 with 2.a4 and 3.g3 in another (this worked so remarkably well that I never tried it again!). In very radical moods I have even been known to play 1.d4.


no credible resource on the possum

There could be a reason for that. :eek:

Rincewind
21-07-2008, 11:40 PM
In very radical moods I have even been known to play 1.d4.


How radical would you have to be feeling to play 1.Nf3?

Axiom
22-07-2008, 12:40 AM
There could be a reason for that. :eek: yes, just not the one that might most readily come to mind :cool:

Axiom
22-07-2008, 12:46 AM
How radical would you have to be feeling to play 1.Nf3?
i would say that is well out of the sphere of 'radical' , more approaching the realm of the clinically insane.

Capablanca-Fan
22-07-2008, 02:28 PM
The Possum seems to have a paralysing effect on caro kann players.
Can't see why. One of the points of the CK is to plant a flag on d5, and after that pretty much develop and ignore White.


( even nigel short described the possum as a "sack of manure" citing the weak g1-a7 diagonal.
Yes, what would a Patzer like Short know after all? After all, he lost his title challenge to Kasparov. ;)


after i explained how that diagonal could be adequately defended
OK, but instead of spending time making a weakness then spending more time defending it, wouldn't it be better to simply not make the weakness in the first place? The game of GO has a proverb, "beware of going back to patch up your plays."

Capablanca-Fan
22-07-2008, 02:29 PM
i would say that [1.Nf3] is well out of the sphere of 'radical' , more approaching the realm of the clinically insane.
Well of course—it blocks the important Possum square for the P.

Capablanca-Fan
22-07-2008, 02:31 PM
Ahh the Fantasie variation
No, it's the Deferred Possum.

Kevin Bonham
22-07-2008, 08:40 PM
How radical would you have to be feeling to play 1.Nf3?

Not very; it's my second-commonest opening move and I play it in 10-15% of my games - I also sometimes play 1.c4 and 1.g3 and have played 1.e3 several times and even 1.Nc3 twice. But I have only ever played 1.d4 once in a rated game and that was against a player I outrated by 800 points. :D

Axiom
22-07-2008, 08:50 PM
Can't see why. One of the points of the CK is to plant a flag on d5, and after that pretty much develop and ignore White.
But with the d3,e4,f3 formation, known as "possum's point" , the d5 flag is always in white's cross hairs. The very ground on which this flag stands is really a shaky ground of nagging unresolved central tension.




Yes, what would a Patzer like Short know after all? After all, he lost his title challenge to Kasparov. ;) yes , he seemed totally flustered and wanted to terminate my conversation with him as soon as possible, when i explained how easily the weak g1-a7 diagonal could be countered.



OK, but instead of spending time making a weakness then spending more time defending it, wouldn't it be better to simply not make the weakness in the first place? The game of GO has a proverb, "beware of going back to patch up your plays."
herein lies the beautiful mystery of the Possum.
Psychologically it can be very disorienting to be confronted by an opponent who seemingly handicaps himself by supposedly creating a weakness.
It's similar to the stotting gazelle and The Handicap Principle http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/darwin/readings/leroising.htm

Also the so called creating of this weakness is the very event that precipitates the possum , precipitates this new strange foreign battle field .This portal to unfamiliar terrain , a terrain which can be navigated by those who know(Much like the afghan freedom fighters in bora bora ;) ), taking one on a brand new journey , a journey into the unknown.

Axiom
22-07-2008, 08:53 PM
Well of course—it blocks the important Possum square for the P.
Absolutely !!
"f3 is no place for a knight" as we possumers are apt to say.

EBT
24-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Before you guffaw and scoff , try it , study the possum thread , play it in practice games, play it in serious games , then comment , ok?
Hi I'm new to the forum. Where can I find this possum thread? :)

Axiom
24-07-2008, 09:44 PM
Hi I'm new to the forum. Where can I find this possum thread? :)
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4342

EBT
24-07-2008, 10:00 PM
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4342
I did find it after a quick search, but thanks! :)

Dougy
14-09-2008, 04:32 PM
As white I find the caro-kann opening annoying given the boringness and solidarity it generally offers for black.

Can anyone suggest some attacking and sharp lines/ideas for white in this opening?? All I can seem to find on the net is a suggestion for the panov attack but I dont really think its that fantastic.

Thx in advance :cool:

Well, I disagree, the Caro-Kann is quite exciting - I play it (as black) a lot against all level of opponents. I feel it makes things as difficult for possible for white to maximise the first-move bonus.

The classical can make me feel quite uncomfortable in the hands of a decent player, however few players are like that (although many think they are) and often they'll fire 20+ moves of theory only to lose a pawn once they're out of book.

Expect a Caro-Kann player to be well booked up and fairly experienced on the Panov. One advantage of the Caro-Kann is little memorisation, the Panov is the exception we have to make. (: If you don't think the Panov is "that fantastic" I wonder what exactly you're after.

Maybe try the Tal attack. Few Caro-Kann players know how to play it - it can be lethal and fast! For example: Tal vs. Vukic 1978 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1140397).

Also you could consider the Anti-Caro-Kann.

MichaelBaron
14-09-2008, 08:52 PM
One advantage of the Caro-Kann is little memorisation, the Panov is the exception we have to make. (: If you don't think the Panov is "that fantastic" I wonder what exactly you're after.



Actually not much to memorize for black against Panov...just take the pawn on c4 and play against white's isolated pawn. It is about positional understanding (playing with/against isolated pawn) rather than memorizing

Basil
14-09-2008, 09:17 PM
NB: White played the entire game at a move a second (or two) - until approximately move 40 (at which point the other games finished and the great man pulled up a chair), while concentrating on 12 other games once!

[Event "Solomon Simul"]
[Site "Brisbane Chess Club Olympiad Fundraiser"]
[Date "2008.09.02"]
[White "Stephen Solomon"]
[Black "Howard Duggan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2431"]
[BlackElo "1501"]
[ECO "B18"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Qc7 7. h4 Nf6 8. h5
Be4 9. Nxe4 Nxe4 10. Bd3 Nf6 11. Bg5 Nbd7 12. Qe2 h6 13. Bxf6 gxf6 14. O-O-O
Qa5 15. Kb1 Nb6 16. c4 O-O-O 17. g4 e6 18. Qe3 Bd6 19. Nd2 Bc7 20. f4 Qb4 21.
a3 Qe7 22. Nb3 Kb8 23. Be2 Qf8 24. Nc5 Nd7 25. b4 Nxc5 26. dxc5 Qe7 27. Kc2
Rhe8 28. Kb3 Qf8 29. a4 e5 30. f5 e4 31. a5 Re5 32. Rxd8+ Bxd8 33. Rd1 Bc7 34.
Rd4 Kc8 35. Ka4 Qg7 36. Rxe4 Qg5 37. Qxg5 fxg5 38. Rxe5 Bxe5 39. Bf3 Kc7 40. b5
a6 41. b6+ Kd7 42. f6 Bxf6 43. Kb4 Bd4 44. Be4 f6 45. Bf5+ Kd8 46. Be6 Be5 47.
Kb3 Bd4 48. Kc2 Bxc5 49. Kd3 Bb4 50. Ke4 Bxa5 51. c5 Bc3 52. Kf5 a5 53. Kg6 a4
54. Kxh6 Ke7 55. Ba2 Bd4 56. Kg6 Bxc5 57. h6 Bd4 58. h7 f5 59. Kxf5 Bf6 60. Bc4
a3 61. Ba2 c5 62. Bd5 Bh8 63. Kxg5 Kd6 64. Ba2 Ke5 65. Kg6 Kd4 66. Kf7 c4 67.
g5 c3 68. g6 c2 69. g7 Bxg7 70. Kxg7 c1=Q 71. h8=Q Qg5+ 72. Kf7+ Kc5 73. Qc3+
1/2-1/2

Dougy
14-09-2008, 11:47 PM
Actually not much to memorize for black against Panov...just take the pawn on c4 and play against white's isolated pawn. It is about positional understanding (playing with/against isolated pawn) rather than memorizing

Hmm... I've never thought about it that way. Currently I'm following Schiller's book "Complete Defense to King Pawn Openings," following for example Anand vs. Karolyi 1987 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1017951). Although I would prefer to play it the way you describe.

MichaelBaron
15-09-2008, 11:59 AM
Hmm... I've never thought about it that way. Currently I'm following Schiller's book "Complete Defense to King Pawn Openings," following for example Anand vs. Karolyi 1987 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1017951). Although I would prefer to play it the way you describe.


After c4 just play e6...wait for white to play Bd3 ..then play dxc4 :)

Davidflude
15-09-2008, 12:08 PM
The following line was analyzed in depth at Chesspublishing.com. I will not breach copyright by stealing their stuff.

"Black is still struggling versus White's simple line here, which for some reason wasn't taken seriously for the last hundred years or so. White scores 5-1 in this month's batch, including higher-rated games.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c4

This is the new weapon. Peter Wells has written about this line in his book Chess Explained: The Caro-Kann."

It looks interesting.

Davidflude
15-09-2008, 12:11 PM
. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.c4 This line is one of the less common replies to Bf5
but scores respectably (54-55% on my database for white). It might be worth considering along with the previous line.

MichaelBaron
16-09-2008, 01:47 AM
. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4.c4 This line is one of the less common replies to Bf5
but scores respectably (54-55% on my database for white). It might be worth considering along with the previous line.

4.c4 is a fairly old move (i can recall Gul'ko beating Karpov with it 15 or so years ago). I would not call it particularly dangerous for Black.

charleschadwick
04-10-2008, 01:10 PM
As a carokann player, I think the panov needs to be well prepared for, 1 slip and black faces a very dangerous K side attack. Tal's attack and some advance lines are tough to face over the board.


Actually not much to memorize for black against Panov...just take the pawn on c4 and play against white's isolated pawn. It is about positional understanding (playing with/against isolated pawn) rather than memorizing

Dougy
06-12-2008, 02:18 PM
I'm interested in the differences between the 11. Bd2 and 11. Bf4 lines in the classical Caro-Kann...

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 e6 11. Bd2 Ngf6 12. O-O-O Be7

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 e6 11. Bf4 Ngf6 12. O-O-O Be7

One obvious difference is that White allows the 11...Qa5+.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 e6 11. Bf4 Qa5+ 12. Bd2 Qc7 13. O-O-O Ngf6

Although I have seen people also play 12.Kf1 in response.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 e6 11. Bf4 Qa5+ 12. Kf1

Can anyone offer some thoughts?

Aaron Guthrie
06-12-2008, 02:26 PM
I'd say one of the first things you have to do is just work out all transpositions.

MichaelBaron
06-12-2008, 05:46 PM
As a carokann player, I think the panov needs to be well prepared for, 1 slip and black faces a very dangerous K side attack. Tal's attack and some advance lines are tough to face over the board.

Well its always good to prepare :). The question is...would it be more productive to memorize opening moves or would it be better to stuy patterns required to play with/against isolated pawn. To play well against Panov one needs to know how to pla against isolated pawn and this can be done through studying positions arising from Queens Gambit accepted, Tarrash etc.

ER
07-12-2008, 03:24 PM
You are all a bunch of utter utter utter utter utter ... you name it!
I just saw our Howie drawing against one of the greatest legends of Australian Chess and not a word about it!!!
CONGRATULATIONS HOWIE, WELL DONE MATE!!!
And I don't care if it was a simul! So there!

Desmond
08-12-2008, 12:29 PM
On f4 the bishop is exposed to an eventual kicking by N(either)d5. Depends on the exact position, but I would guess you generally want to occupy e5 with a knight, so the bishop will most likely retreat to d2 anyway.

Adamski
08-12-2008, 02:24 PM
Not very; it's my second-commonest opening move and I play it in 10-15% of my games - I also sometimes play 1.c4 and 1.g3 and have played 1.e3 several times and even 1.Nc3 twice. But I have only ever played 1.d4 once in a rated game and that was against a player I outrated by 800 points. :DKevin, it is high time you graduated to 1 b4! Also good in lightning, but I would not play it nowadays in a slower rated game against a decent opponent.

Adamski
08-12-2008, 02:31 PM
You are all a bunch of utter utter utter utter utter ... you name it!
I just saw our Howie drawing against one of the greatest legends of Australian Chess and not a word about it!!!
CONGRATULATIONS HOWIE, WELL DONE MATE!!!
And I don't care if it was a simul! So there!I second JaK's congrats to you, Howie!

Kevin Bonham
08-12-2008, 09:34 PM
Kevin, it is high time you graduated to 1 b4! Also good in lightning, but I would not play it nowadays in a slower rated game against a decent opponent.

I think I have played 1.b4 in a serious game exactly once (as a result of a joke arrangement with the opponent that next time we met in a rated game whoever was white would play 1.b4). I won that game but was lucky not to lose it.

Denis_Jessop
08-12-2008, 10:45 PM
I think I have played 1.b4 in a serious game exactly once (as a result of a joke arrangement with the opponent that next time we met in a rated game whoever was white would play 1.b4). I won that game but was lucky not to lose it.

There was a player at the St Kilda CC. Melbourne in the 1960s who played 1. b4 quite often. He was a strong player (one of the best in the club) who also played very quickly. He was in fact even better at lightning where, as Adamski says, his "Monkey" was more effective too.

DJ

Dougy
10-12-2008, 12:42 PM
On f4 the bishop is exposed to an eventual kicking by N(either)d5. Depends on the exact position, but I would guess you generally want to occupy e5 with a knight, so the bishop will most likely retreat to d2 anyway.

Thanks Boris. At first glance f4 seems like a better square for the bishop.

I think the knight move needs to be well-timed thought to avoid a favourable Be5 response. Also after the Nd5 and a Bd2 retreat, one of e4 or e5 is unguarded by a knight which can be occupied by one of White's knights. White can even gain time sometimes with the c4 advance.

Igor_Goldenberg
10-12-2008, 01:35 PM
There was a player at the St Kilda CC. Melbourne in the 1960s who played 1. b4 quite often. He was a strong player (one of the best in the club) who also played very quickly. He was in fact even better at lightning where, as Adamski says, his "Monkey" was more effective too.

DJ
Erik Teichmann (who is also a strong player and lives in Melbourne, btw) plays 1.b4 quite often.

Desmond
10-12-2008, 02:04 PM
Thanks Boris. At first glance f4 seems like a better square for the bishop.

I think the knight move needs to be well-timed thought to avoid a favourable Be5 response. Also after the Nd5 and a Bd2 retreat, one of e4 or e5 is unguarded by a knight which can be occupied by one of White's knights. White can even gain time sometimes with the c4 advance.Yes, I think these things are all true.

MichaelBaron
11-12-2008, 04:57 PM
I think both f4 and d2 are ok. Its just a matter of taste

Adamski
11-12-2008, 10:59 PM
There was a player at the St Kilda CC. Melbourne in the 1960s who played 1. b4 quite often. He was a strong player (one of the best in the club) who also played very quickly. He was in fact even better at lightning where, as Adamski says, his "Monkey" was more effective too.

DJYes - many strong players have had some success with 1 b4. Tartakower and GM Sokolsky would top that list. I know this is meant to be a Caro Kann thread but I can't resist one more Orang Outan reference. I have won a reasonable number of games with Sokolsky's ape (including my favourite long time limit win posted elsewhere on this BB - I think it's the "What Do You Do with Your games" thread), and this year that "Monkey" helped me win the Manly lightning champs. (But I won't say "blessed be his holy hooves" - he hasn't got any! And to me that would be nearly blasphemous anyway.)

Trent Parker
16-12-2008, 02:40 PM
Remember the interesting game you and I had a few years back at mingara - that was an orang utan.

Adamski
16-12-2008, 03:21 PM
Yep - still got the scoresheet. You won, Trent! Perhaps I should have seen if you would let me play the Monkey's Bum!

Denis_Jessop
16-12-2008, 08:14 PM
Erik Teichmann (who is also a strong player and lives in Melbourne, btw) plays 1.b4 quite often.

The player I referred to was Edgar Szobolotsky who migrated here from Hungary in 1956 and was one of the leading players in the St Kilda CC in the early 1960s. Unfortunately he gave up chess for bridge, I believe, and that was some time ago as his name is not on the ACF Master File.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
21-02-2009, 06:38 PM
Duggan does it again, its a slav opening you ^%$*.

Actually it's a semi-slav. Big difference! :D

Basil
21-02-2009, 06:44 PM
idiot
Ah yes. I was on the fly (Renée's interstate at a wedding and dinner time & bath time x 2 is fun :eek:) but that's no excuse especially as I have been playing the CK a lot just recently. Have deleted the my original - the insult can stay!

Saragossa
21-02-2009, 07:34 PM
Actually it's a semi-slav. Big difference! :D
While it's at the discussion table what is the difference? I've never really known.

Kevin Bonham
21-02-2009, 08:15 PM
While it's at the discussion table what is the difference? I've never really known.

Semi-Slav has an early ...e6; true Slav doesn't. Semi-Slav can arise from a QGD move-order (and often does if black wants to avoid the Exchange Slav) so it's a sort of QGD/Slav hybrid.

ER
14-07-2010, 10:13 PM
I have just observed that a certain way of treating the CK as White produces excellent results.
It started a few months ago in an internet game which went

1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bg4 6.c3 e6 7.Qa4 Nbd7 8.Ne5 Be7 9. Bg5 Bh5 10. 0-0 {10.Bxf6!} h6{?} 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Nxd7

1-0 (Here I leave you to work it out why Black loses after 12...Ke7

Some time later when I went through this game, I noticed that the whole trick can happen earlier - in move 10!

I have used the same or similar set up against Black's same or similar set ups with success!

I haven't checked if this is something well known or if my idea is original!

Igor_Goldenberg
14-07-2010, 10:37 PM
I have just observed that a certain way of treating the CK as White produces excellent results.
It started a few months ago in an internet game which went

1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bg4 6.c3 e6 7.Qa4 Nbd7 8.Ne5 Be7 9. Bg5 Bh5 10. 0-0 {10.Bxf6!} h6{?} 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Nxd7

1-0 (Here I leave you to work it out why Black loses after 12...Ke7

Some time later when I went through this game, I noticed that the whole trick can happen earlier - in move 10!

I have used the same or similar set up against Black's same or similar set ups with success!

I haven't checked if this is something well known or if my idea is original!
6...Nc6 is much better, 7...Nfd7 is more cautious, but decisive mistake is 9...Bh5 (9...0-0 still holds)

Kevin Bonham
14-07-2010, 11:08 PM
I haven't checked if this is something well known or if my idea is original!

It's a nice idea anyway.

Chessbase has not many games in this sort of line. As Igor notes, 6...e6 is inferior to 6...Nc6; it is not played by very strong players (highest rating in 2200s). Of the games it does have, it has just two with 8...Be7. That said, at club level you might well see 6...e6 fairly often.

In both of the 8...Be7 games in Chessbase, played between players who had no recorded rating in the database, white played 9.Bb5 instead of your 9.Bg5, but with the same basic idea, and in both cases working very quickly as black blundered:

Teska-Grimme 2000

1.d4 c5 2.e3 cxd4 3.exd4 d5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bg4 6.c3 e6 7.Qa4+ Nbd7 8.Ne5 Be7 9.Bb5 Bf5?! 10.g4! Bxb1 11.g5! a6 12.gxf6 gxf6?? 13.Bxd7+ and black resigned next move [12...axb5 13.fxe7 Qc8 14.Qxb5 Bg6 and white is better]

In the other game black tried 9...a6?? and resigned after 10.Bxd7+ winning the bishop on g4.

The correct response to 9.Bb5 is 9...h5! and white has nothing.

Against the JaK Attack, 9.Bg5, the correct response is 9...0-0 as Igor notes. This seems to be the only decent reply.


Here I leave you to work it out why Black loses after 12...Ke7

How about: he is a whole piece down?

Igor_Goldenberg
15-07-2010, 01:39 PM
Since Jak resurrected here is an idea that very old, not very dangerous, but might against someone who does not know theory that well:
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.g4?! it might continue 4...Bg6 5.h4 h6 6.h5 Bh7 7.e6 fxe6 8.Bd3 and black king side is in danger of being stalemated
another line black should be aware if they play Slav:
1.c4 c6 2.e4 switching to Caro-Cann

PS. Why the last move is displayed by not playable?

ER
15-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Since Jak resurrected here is an idea that very old, not very dangerous, but might against someone who does not know theory that well:
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.g4?! it might continue 4...Bg6 5.h4 h6 6.h5 Bh7 7.e6 fxe6 8.Bd3 and black king side is in danger of being stalemated
another line black should be aware if they play Slav:
1.c4 c6 2.e4 switching to Caro-Cann

PS. Why the last move is displayed by not playable?

I think because you did not use the x sign in fxe6 :)

ER
15-07-2010, 01:51 PM
It's a nice idea anyway.
Thanks, :)


at club level you might well see 6...e6 fairly often.

I see, is that why you play it in move 1? :)

Igor_Goldenberg
15-07-2010, 03:45 PM
I think because you did not use the x sign in fxe6 :)
Thank you.

Kevin Bonham
15-07-2010, 04:16 PM
I see, is that why you play it in move 1? :)

No; I play it on move 1 so that I don't have to defend either e5 or f7. :lol:

Truly - I started playing the French at about age 13 after too many quick losses with 1...e5 in very early junior tournaments. I have since been too lazy to learn anything else.

Saragossa
26-07-2010, 03:16 PM
I see Pono gave the exchange Caro-kann a go and Li had a darn good go at breaking it.