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CameronD
28-06-2008, 09:48 PM
Hi

I've been playing the slav for the last year with just average results, so want to trial the pirc before spending money on it. Could experinced players point out the correctmoves and aims (short and long term) of a few 5 0 games I'm playing to see how it feels to me.

Thanks

CameronD
28-06-2008, 09:49 PM
1. d4 d6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nf3 g6 4. e3 Bg7 5. Bd3 Bg4 6. Nc3 e5
7. dxe5 dxe5 8. Be2 Qxd1+ 9. Bxd1 e4 10. Ne5 Bxd1 11. Nxd1 Nbd7 12. Nxd7 Nxd7
13. O-O Nc5 14. Rb1 O-O-O 15. b4 Nd3 16. Nb2 Nxc1 17. Rfxc1 Rd2 18. Nd1 Rhd8
19. h3 f5 20. Nc3 Bxc3 21. Rxc3 Rd1+ 22. Rxd1 Rxd1+ 23. Kh2 Rd2 24. a3 Rxf2 25.
Kg3 Rd2 26. h4 Kd7 27. Kh3 Rd3 28. Rc1 Rxe3+ 29. Kh2 Rxa3 30. Rd1+ Rd3 31. Ra1
a6 32. Ra5 Kd6 33. c5+ Kc6 34. Ra1 Kb5

Garrett
29-06-2008, 07:32 AM
Hi Cameron

I believe I have the book 'Starting Out; The Pirc/Modern' which I will bring along to the club on Thursday night.

My career with the Pirc was over before it began so you can keep the book for as long as you want. It's only taking up space in the cupboard.

Cheers
Garrett.

Garrett
29-06-2008, 07:34 AM
and of course you could end up in the Kings Indian as well unless you opt for
d4 d6
c4 e5

or some other sideline.

I have books on the KID I could loan as well to give you a taste but I'll chat to you on Thursday night if you like.

Cheers
Garrett.

Garvinator
29-06-2008, 01:51 PM
Hi Cameron

I believe I have the book 'Starting Out; The Pirc/Modern' which I will bring along to the club on Thursday night.

My career with the Pirc was over before it began so you can keep the book for as long as you want. It's only taking up space in the cupboard.

Cheers
Garrett.
If CDV does not want the book, I would not mind picking it up either this Thursday or next.

CameronD
29-06-2008, 04:07 PM
Hi Cameron

I believe I have the book 'Starting Out; The Pirc/Modern' which I will bring along to the club on Thursday night.

My career with the Pirc was over before it began so you can keep the book for as long as you want. It's only taking up space in the cupboard.

Cheers
Garrett.


Thanks garrett

Thats much appreciated.

Garrett
29-06-2008, 06:17 PM
Thanks garrett

Thats much appreciated.

okay no problem, I've just dug it out and will put it in the car tomorrow so I don't forget.

cheers
Garrett.

Southpaw Jim
29-06-2008, 09:26 PM
Cameron, are you aware that 1.d4 d6 is not the Pirc? I'm assuming you are and your interest stems from the transposition from the Tartakower system into the Pirc with 2.e4...

As you may have gathered on here, I'm a pretty weak player - but I started off playing 1...d6 in response to e4. My experience of it is that it's a complex system, where move order can be the critical difference between survival and getting smashed. Hope you like booking up!

My (limited) understanding/memory of the Pirc is that Black hunkers down and lets White have his attack in the hope that White overextends himself and leaves himself vulnerable. The problem is that Black allows White to potentially develop a big strong centre and then go for the Grand Prix attack (Be3, Qd2, attacking Black's fianchettoed dark Bishop).

Black has the potential, however, providing he weathers White's attack, to enter either a Dragon-type position without allowing the Yugoslav Attack, or (if my memory serves me) a Ruy-type position that is also reasonably good.

The Pirc can be a potent weapon in the hands of a master, but as I say, move orders can be very important (incl when you castle) - in some lines you play ...c5, others ...c6, for example. I dumped it a long time ago in favour of the Sicilian. I can't claim that I'm winning more games, but I'm lasting longer, and feel more comfortable with a system that is a little more aggressive out of the opening.

If you are still keen on the Pirc, Lev Alburt's Pirc Alert! is really quite good. It explains a lot of the plans in the major variations, with good clear prose.

Good luck with it!

Kevin Bonham
30-06-2008, 01:49 AM
White's 4.e3 was pretty tame. This blocks in the QB for no good reason since white could just as easily go into the Pirc with e4 at some stage, or play g3/Bg2. Possibly white just wanted to avoid book lines but it's a pretty unremarkable way to do it. Or perhaps white didn't have a clue.

The one thing black did in the game that was a bit suss was 6...e5. This could have lost time after 7.Qb3. 6...c5 would have been a better way to challenge the centre in this particular case - it goes well with the B on g7 and has the additional point that if 7.Qb3 b6 then should white exchange pawns, you now benefit from the half-open rook file hassling white's queen, so after 6...c5 7.Qb3, 7...b6 would not actually be a wasted tempo.

In my experience as a smasher of a good many Pircs with the white pieces, what Southpaw Jim says:


My experience of it is that it's a complex system, where move order can be the critical difference between survival and getting smashed. Hope you like booking up!

...is correct; I think it would be hard to tell from a light immersion in the Pirc whether or not you would play it well with more experience.

Many sub-1700 players who play the Pirc do not play it well (they seem to think it's safely nondescript and requiring no real study, which it isn't) and would be better off playing virtually anything else, except, perhaps, the Philidor. :P

Southpaw Jim
30-06-2008, 08:50 AM
Curiously, in a quirk of coincidence, shortly after posting above last night I had a game on FICS where my opponent played the Pirc! I'll only post the first few moves, but they sort of illustrate what I was saying about how easy it is to go wrong in this opening playing moves that seem sensible. My opponent is rated 1380, if that matters.

1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 {not normal, better is Nf6} 4. Be3 Bg4 {premature} 5. Bc4 Bxf3 {I've read that Black is happy to make this exchange, as the light B is a relatively poor piece for the Pirc player, and it removes an important White piece. However, this is all premature. Black's correct response to 4. Be3 is ...c6, then 5. Qd2 b5 countering on the Q-side} 6. Qxf3 Nf6?? {this looks like a sensible developing move, but just walks into it} 7. e5 dxe5 8. dxe5 O-O {if the N moves, Qxf7 makes things ugly} 9. Qxb7 Nbd7 10. exf6 Bxf6
I managed to later blunder my way to a draw (K+Q+N vs K+P (7th rank) ending :( ), but you can see how quickly things can go pear-shaped. All of Black's moves are ones that are seen in some variations of the Pirc, and are generally reasonable developing moves, but Black obviously forgot that tactics apply from move *1*.

I'm not saying "don't play it", but be sure that you're happy defending cramped positions for 10-20 moves.

Garvinator
30-06-2008, 09:43 AM
The opening you sight Southpaw I think is more from the 'modern opening' genre, than from the Pirc.

If my understanding is correct, black plays 2. ... Nf6 so as to encourage white to play 3. Nc3, thereby preventing white setting up the classical pawn centre as in openings like KID.

Aaron Guthrie
30-06-2008, 09:56 AM
The opening you sight Southpaw I think is more from the 'modern opening' genre, than from the Pirc.Yeah after Black's third it's mainline Modern.
If my understanding is correct, black plays 2. ... Nf6 so as to encourage white to play 3. Nc3, thereby preventing white setting up the classical pawn centre as in openings like KID.I wonder how often white players actually play c4 against a modern.

Desmond
01-07-2008, 09:29 AM
I think the fundamental problem in starting out with the Pirc is that in many lines you need to transpose into either a Modern or a King's Indian. You can't really get by without knowing all 3 reasonably well. Also, in my experience, the Pirc books don't tell you much about these transpositions; they tell you the move that takes it into the KID and then you're on your own. Presumably the author assumes that either you know everything about those other openings or that you'll go study up on them.

Spiny Norman
01-07-2008, 09:58 AM
I used to play the Pirc as a junior. Several hammerings at the hands of stronger players cured me of that. I used to crouch in terror in the corner as their h4 pawn leapt down the board at me.

I haven't played it in years as a result. White seems to have a pretty clear set of plans and Black must know his early move orders (beware castling too early) and how to get q-side counterplay.

I've also got the Starting Out book and it covers most of the ideas fairly well.

Rincewind
01-07-2008, 10:09 AM
Yeah after Black's third it's mainline Modern.I wonder how often white players actually play c4 against a modern.

After 1.d4 d6 my database has for white's second move

c4 32.4% (7875 games)
Nf3 32.4% (7858 games)
e4 28.5% (6920 games)
g3 3.3% (809 games)
Bg5 1.0% (252 games)

the rest are less that 1%

Aaron Guthrie
01-07-2008, 10:36 AM
After 1.d4 d6 my database has for white's second move

c4 32.4% (7875 games)
Nf3 32.4% (7858 games)
e4 28.5% (6920 games)
g3 3.3% (809 games)
Bg5 1.0% (252 games)

the rest are less that 1%But after 1.d4 d6 it isn't a modern, at least not yet. My comment was in reference to Southpaw's game and gg's response. So I was thinking of games that start 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 (or d6).

Garrett
01-07-2008, 10:38 AM
After 1.d4 d6 my database has for white's second move

c4 32.4% (7875 games)
Nf3 32.4% (7858 games)
e4 28.5% (6920 games)
g3 3.3% (809 games)
Bg5 1.0% (252 games)

the rest are less that 1%

Are the Bg5 Gunner Duggan's games ?

Rincewind
01-07-2008, 09:07 PM
But after 1.d4 d6 it isn't a modern, at least not yet. My comment was in reference to Southpaw's game and gg's response. So I was thinking of games that start 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 (or d6).

The short answer is it is the third most popular move at around 8-10%

After 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 we have

Nc3 55.6%
Nf3 20.2%
c4 8.4%
c3 5.9%
f4 4.2%
Be3 2%
Bc4 1.3%

and everything else < 1%

After 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 we have

Nc3 55.5%
Nf3 15.9%
c4 9.4%
f4 6.3%
Be3 2.8%
c3 2.7%
Bc4 2.3%
g3 1.7%

and everything else < 1%

CameronD
01-07-2008, 09:09 PM
Are the Bg5 Gunner Duggan's games ?

whats the percentages in the gunner variation

Rincewind
01-07-2008, 09:15 PM
Are the Bg5 Gunner Duggan's games ?

Not exactly but Gurevich and Sokolov seem to be the main exponents at the pointy end of the FIDE rating list.

Here is one effort by Gunner Gurevich (not the guy who designed the MiG)

Gurevich(2633) - Rogers(2538)
Batumi, GEO
17 Sept 2001

1.d4 d6 2.Bg5 g6 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3 c5 5.d5 b5 6.cxb5 a6 7.e4 Qa5 8.Bd2 Nf6 9.
a4 axb5 10.Bxb5+ Nbd7 11.Nf3 O-O 12.O-O Ba6 13.h3 Bxb5 14.Nxb5 Qb6 15.Re1
e6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Bc3 d5 18.exd5 exd5 19.Re7 d4 20.Qb3+ Kh8 21.Bd2 Qc6
22.Rae1 Nd5 23.R7e6 Qb7 24.Qc2 Ra6 25.Ng5 Bf6 26.Nd6 Qa7 27.Qe4 Bxg5 28.
Bxg5 Qa8 29.Nf7+ Kg7 30.Rxa6 1-0

Ivanchuk_Fan
02-07-2008, 04:56 PM
Isn't 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.Bg3 Bg7 just fine for Black? For example: 5.e3 c5 6.c3 Nf6 and Black has at least equalised.

Intuition
05-07-2008, 09:30 PM
Can somebody suggest a sound sharp line for white to bust up the pirc's solidarity or some to avoid black transposing into sicilian dragon type positions?

Aaron Guthrie
05-07-2008, 09:35 PM
Can somebody suggest a sound sharp line for white to bust up the pirc's solidarity or some to avoid black transposing into sicilian dragon type positions?No need to repeat yourself.

CameronD
05-07-2008, 09:38 PM
i'd play the 150 attack.

I've transposed into it once against a player rated 100 points above me. I should've won being the exchange and pawn in front, but stuffed up and drew.

Capablanca-Fan
05-07-2008, 10:33 PM
Gurevich(2633) - Rogers(2538)
Batumi, GEO
17 Sept 2001

1.d4 d6 2.Bg5 g6 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3 c5 5.d5 b5 6.cxb5 a6 7.e4 Qa5 8.Bd2 Nf6 9.
a4 axb5 10.Bxb5+ Nbd7 11.Nf3 O-O 12.O-O Ba6 13.h3 Bxb5 14.Nxb5 Qb6 15.Re1
e6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Bc3 d5 18.exd5 exd5 19.Re7 d4 20.Qb3+ Kh8 21.Bd2 Qc6
22.Rae1 Nd5 23.R7e6 Qb7 24.Qc2 Ra6 25.Ng5 Bf6 26.Nd6 Qa7 27.Qe4 Bxg5 28.
Bxg5 Qa8 29.Nf7+ Kg7 30.Rxa6 1-0
This transposed into an inferior Benko Gambit for Black. Yermolinsky pointed out in The Road to Chess Improvement that the strength of the Benko is a lead in development that prevents White from easily consolidating his Q-side. But in this game, Black was reduced to dubious central action that White refuted nicely.

Davidflude
06-07-2008, 03:51 PM
The best book by the length of the Flemington Straight is "The Pirc in Black and White" by James Vigus. Note this book deals with the Pirc.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6.

It does not deal with the modern 1.e4 g6 or
1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6.

The point is that the modern move order can lead to completely different sorts of positions than the Pirc.

In my opinion the Pirc can be played by weak club players upward. As you improve you can still continue to play the Pirc.

The Modern is a different kettle of fish. You need to be a good player to play it well. However if you really understand it it is a very good patzer smasher.

Davidflude
06-07-2008, 04:12 PM
Can somebody suggest a sound sharp line for white to bust up the pirc's solidarity or some to avoid black transposing into sicilian dragon type positions?

The Austrian attack is a good line but there is a mass of theory.

The deferred Spike is little known or analyzed and is very dangerous for black.

1.e4 d6
2.d4 Nf6
3.Nf3 g6
4.Be2 Bg7
5.Be3 (the immediate 5.g4 is the Spike or Chinese Attack) 0-0
6.g4

This would make an exellent sound shock weapon.

KidPoker
06-07-2008, 08:52 PM
The Austrian attack is a good line but there is a mass of theory.

The deferred Spike is little known or analyzed and is very dangerous for black.

1.e4 d6
2.d4 Nf6
3.Nf3 g6
4.Be2 Bg7
5.Be3 (the immediate 5.g4 is the Spike or Chinese Attack) 0-0
6.g4

This would make an exellent sound shock weapon.
David, do you realise that 3.Nf3 loses a pawn to Nxe4? I'm guessing you mean 3.Nc3 instead.

Capablanca-Fan
07-07-2008, 12:17 PM
David, do you realise that 3.Nf3 loses a pawn to Nxe4? I'm guessing you mean 3.Nc3 instead.
Definitely a typo, since the g4 P would also have been lost in that line.

Davidflude
08-07-2008, 01:05 PM
Definitely a typo, since the g4 P would also have been lost in that line.

thanks guys.

Intuition
09-07-2008, 11:35 AM
Intereting ideas, thx everyone...I like playing the throw in a g4 openings :) will have a closer look at it

Ivanchuk_Fan
26-07-2008, 08:36 PM
The book "Carpathian Warrior" by Bogdan Lalic and Vladimir Okhotnik has very good coverage of the g4-Spike Attack, along with many other variations.

IIRC, Liu Wenzhe smashed Hein Donner at one of the Olympiads with this line.