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CameronD
20-06-2008, 09:45 PM
Hi

Had this position as white in a recent game.
I felt that white was equal with a minor (0.1) edge.
Black felt that he was significantly better.

Could players please give their opinion. Black to move

r2qk2r/1b6/ppnpp2p/5pp1/2PP4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3K2R b - - 0 1

CameronD
20-06-2008, 10:02 PM
I give up trying to get this stupid code to work. Will have to write below...

White
K e1
Q d2
R a1 h1
N c3 f3
p a2 b2 c4 d4 f2 g2 h3

Black
K e8
Q d8
R a8 h8
B b7
N c6
p a6 b6 d6 e6 f5 g5 h6

Kevin Bonham
20-06-2008, 10:13 PM
After the colour and the two dashes I just add 0 and then 1. I fixed yours up above.

CameronD
20-06-2008, 10:13 PM
thanks

Kevin Bonham
20-06-2008, 10:32 PM
Curious position. I initially thought black was better (strong looking bishop, massive space advantage, white knights passive etc). But white can play d5 and appears able to hold that square indefinitely. After that move, the black pawn structure is compromised and the bishop is no longer threatening. I'm not convinced that black is significantly better for that reason; the good old copout "unclear but roughly equal" seems closer to the mark. :lol:

Stronger players than me may have more useful insights!

Basil
21-06-2008, 12:18 AM
Curious position. I initially thought black was better (strong looking bishop, massive space advantage, white knights passive etc). But white can play d5 and appears able to hold that square indefinitely.
It's black's move. :P

I wanted to play either
• 17... Ne7 with a view to d5 when I was ready, or the N heading to f5 via g6, or
• 17... Qf6

I spent 15 minutes on the move and didn't like black's N sac on g5 (after Ne7). So I played the in between move (not!), g4 expecting to force the Nf3 back in its box - completely missing the newly opened file afforded by the pawn exchange. As a result, white's idiot Nf3 gets a game and Gunner trashes a coupla more ratings points!

What Cam says is true; I thought I was considerably better. Cam kindly suggested the I might be dreamin'. The box agrees with Cam - and that black is not better. I do wonder whether the box has slightly more difficulty assessing (20 secs only) the position because the forces aren't clashing and the ideas are a little more long term and positional.

What I do know is that I'd prefer to be black any day of the week (until I grow up to be a better player, anyway).

The game.

[Event "Lasker"]
[Date "2008.06.19"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Cameron De Vere"]
[Black "Howard "]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1501"]
[BlackElo "1427"]
[ECO "A40"]

1. d4 e6 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 b6 4. Nf3 Bb7 5. Bd3 h6 6. h3 Nc6 7. c3 d5 8. Nbd2
Bd6 9. Bxd6 cxd6 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Nd5 12. Qd2 g5 13. Bb5 f5 14. c4 Nc7 15.
Nc3 Nxb5 16. Nxb5 a6 17. Nc3 g4 18. hxg4 fxg4 19. Ng5 Qf6 20. Nge4 Qe7 21. Qf4
O-O-O 22. O-O-O h5 23. Qf6 Qxf6 24. Nxf6 Rdf8 25. Nxh5 Rxf2 26. Ne4 Rxg2 27.
Nxd6+ Kc7 28. Nxb7 Kxb7 29. d5 exd5 30. cxd5 Nb4 31. a3 Rc8+ 32. Kb1 Nc2 33.
Nf4 Rf2 34. Nd3 Re2 35. Rh7+ Kb8 36. d6 Ne3 37. Rc1 Rxc1+ 38. Kxc1 Nf5 39. Rh8+
Kb7 40. d7 g3 41. d8=Q Kc6 42. Qc8+ 1-0

Capablanca-Fan
21-06-2008, 12:28 AM
[Event "Lasker"]
[Date "2008.06.19"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Cameron De Vere"]
[Black "Howard "]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1501"]
[BlackElo "1427"]
[ECO "A40"]

1. d4 e6 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 b6 4. Nf3 Bb7 5. Bd3 h6 6. h3 Nc6 7. c3 d5 8. Nbd2
Bd6 9. Bxd6 cxd6 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Nd5 12. Qd2 g5 13. Bb5 f5 14. c4 Nc7 15.
Nc3 Nxb5 16. Nxb5 a6 17. Nc3 g4 18. hxg4 fxg4 19. Ng5 Qf6 20. Nge4 Qe7 21. Qf4
O-O-O 22. O-O-O h5 23. Qf6 Qxf6 24. Nxf6 Rdf8 25. Nxh5 Rxf2 26. Ne4 Rxg2 27.
Nxd6+ Kc7 28. Nxb7 Kxb7 29. d5 exd5 30. cxd5 Nb4 31. a3 Rc8+ 32. Kb1 Nc2 33.
Nf4 Rf2 34. Nd3 Re2 35. Rh7+ Kb8 36. d6 Ne3 37. Rc1 Rxc1+ 38. Kxc1 Nf5 39. Rh8+
Kb7 40. d7 g3 41. d8=Q Kc6 42. Qc8+ 1-0
32... Rc2 forces a draw.

Basil
21-06-2008, 12:29 AM
32... Rc2 forces a draw.
True. Except I thought I was winning :wall:

Basil
21-06-2008, 12:36 AM
14... fxe4 would have also dramatically increased black's game (obvious) but I didn't play it and I reminded of far I am yet to go in my chess development curve.

I thought Cam played very well in the second half of the game. He was kind enough to suggest a draw would have been the best result.

Kevin Bonham
21-06-2008, 12:41 AM
It's black's move. :P

Yes, but Black can't really stop d5 - not without incurring other weaknesses in the process. If you play ...Ne7 with a view to d5 then white plays d5 straight away.


I do wonder whether the box has slightly more difficulty assessing (20 secs only) the position because he forces aren't clashing and the ideas are a little more long term and positional.

Indeed. It is a difficult position for a computer to make sense of. Mine starts out with white better by 0.1-0.2 then depending on what series of plausible moves I enter in it may go down to zero or head up to as high as 0.6. Actually I'm surprised Fritz doesn't like black here because my observation of Fritz 11 is that early in its assessment of any particular move it seems to value space advantage very highly.

You've probably already noticed (if you've put that position in front of the silicon critter) that 19...Qe7 instead of ...Qf6 is not too bad for black.

I'm not so sure about my "roughly equal" claim below. I think white's better in practical terms if the players are quite strong. At average club level though black would normally have good chances because the exploitation of a space advantage is more likely to be seen than super-accurate positional play. It just happened that in this case it backfired giving the opponent activity.

Capablanca-Fan
21-06-2008, 12:43 AM
14... fxe4 would have also dramatically increased black's game (obvious) but I didn't play it and I reminded of far I am yet to go in my chess development curve.
Yes, looks good. In the diagrammed position, 17... e5 looks best. 17... g4 was definitely wrong because it broke the large K-side pawn island.

Aaron Guthrie
21-06-2008, 12:46 AM
I prefer white.


17... e5 looks best.de5 with qe3 and probably nd5 to follow. I think e5 is asking for trouble.

Kevin Bonham
21-06-2008, 12:52 AM
32... Rc2 forces a draw.

38...Rc2+ (the reason for the check is that otherwise Nb4 threatens Nc6 with mate) 39.Kb1 g3 is also good for a draw but much less obvious.

Garvinator
21-06-2008, 02:11 AM
38...Rc2+ (the reason for the check is that otherwise Nb4 threatens Nc6 with mate) 39.Kb1 g3 is also good for a draw but much less obvious.
Bit difficult for both players at this stage. Both players only had a couple of mins (+ 30 secs per move) to make 2 moves to get to the 40 move time control, then they receive another 15 mins each (+ 30 secs per move till end of game).

Capablanca-Fan
21-06-2008, 03:32 AM
I prefer white.
Black is rather loose, with no Ps left on home base.


de5 with qe3 and probably nd5 to follow. I think e5 is asking for trouble.
Even after 18... Nxe5 ?

Aaron Guthrie
21-06-2008, 05:13 AM
Even after 18... Nxe5 ?No. I thought 18...de5 was the idea, with say e4 Ne5 type stuff (i.e. try and show Black's knight is good, whites bad).

So if 18...Nxe5 19.Nxe5 dxe5 and now 20.Nd5 or 20.Qe2 look reasonable. But say 20.Qe2 0-0! and there is the idea of trying to show that whites king is actually in a less safe position than blacks (push kingside pawns, support with rook, bish etc.)

CameronD
21-06-2008, 11:42 AM
I dont understand why people say that black has a space advantage, in the game I actually saw white with the space.

The advanced kingside and queenside pawns dont achieve anything, worst is that they get exchanged or locked up which must help whites knights.

I felt that white had the central space which mattered as black has no pawn breaks.

Could someone explain how blacks flank pawns mean anything.

Brian_Jones
21-06-2008, 01:05 PM
I dont understand why people say that black has a space advantage, in the game I actually saw white with the space. .

Try counting the number of squares available behind the pawn structures.

Black has a little bit more space than white.

But white could argue that black's lack of king safety is adequate compensation.

Chess is just such a difficult game! :)

Basil
21-06-2008, 02:07 PM
I dont understand why people say that black has a space advantage... The advanced kingside and queenside pawns dont achieve anything...
Kingside Space
Notwithstanding my limitations and my 'Wrong Number HADBBA for Chess Analysis' I'd say with reasonable confidence that black's kingside pawns limits white's kingside to his first three ranks. Whatever can be said about black's pawns not having much room to move, can be equally leveled as white's paralysed kingside.

Kingside Castling
Black has a reasonable opportunity to castle kingside should he wish, where white's opportunity there doesn't exist. One of those 'fixed' pawns would create all manner of nasties if pushed against a castled kingside position.

Bishop
Regardless of whether the d5 square is locked or not, the Bishop could relocate in a position that will eventually open up after a few more jockeying moves.

Queenside pawns
I feel that white's queenside pawns are also static, or have one more square of glory should they wish to exercise their legs. And even then, black has the opportinity to benefit from the pawn locking or break them open.

General
Again I felt black was the one to make (majority of) the play at a judicious time.

I'm now taking my Wrong Number HADBBA, my one tournament point and heading back to the bowels of anonymity.

Carry on!