PDA

View Full Version : Is the Dutch really an aggressive opening??



Intuition
28-05-2008, 08:22 PM
I was considering taking up the Dutch as my main defence to d4, but is it really an aggressive opening?? With my look at it so far it seems to lead to very closed positions or does it depend on how black decides to play? I would like to play aggressively for a win v d4, could it possiblity be that it starts off seeming quiet but later on when black pushes his kings pawns forward all hell breaks loose???

What are you experiences/thoughts which the dutch as black or white?? :)

Phil Bourke
28-05-2008, 09:17 PM
I was considering taking up the Dutch as my main defence to d4, but is it really an aggressive opening?? With my look at it so far it seems to lead to very closed positions or does it depend on how black decides to play? I would like to play aggressively for a win v d4, could it possiblity be that it starts off seeming quiet but later on when black pushes his kings pawns forward all hell breaks loose???

What are you experiences/thoughts which the dutch as black or white?? :)
As a caution, Korchnoi once said that the in the Dutch Defence the best move for Black would be f5-f7 :) But even he played it early in his career, and many players play it frequently, if not all the time. Mos Ali is one that has scored many good wins with the Dutch. Hopefully someone that knows it will share some of Black's strategic aims and tactical weapons, because all I can offer is that Black often looks at pushing the pawn to f4 and opening up the Kingside for an attack.

ER
28-05-2008, 11:39 PM
I was considering taking up the Dutch as my main defence to d4, (...)

What are you experiences/thoughts which the dutch as black or white?? :)

Learn as much as you can against the Staunton Gambit! 1.d4 f5 2. e4
or if you are planning 1.d4 e6 and then ... f5 learn the French so you can defend against 1.d4 e6 2. e4
Cheers and good luck!

eclectic
28-05-2008, 11:41 PM
Learn as much as you can against the Staunton Gambit! 1.d4 f5 2. e4
or if you are planning 1.d4 e6 and then ... f5 learn the French so you can defend against 1.d4 e6 2. e4
Cheers and good luck!

the trick is to always (where possible) enter the netherlands via france ;)

1... e6 2... f5

ER
28-05-2008, 11:54 PM
it won't always work, Belgium is in the way :)
Cheers and good luck

Spiny Norman
29-05-2008, 06:42 AM
I've played the Leningrad version of the Dutch fairly often. But I don't think you can get there via France! ;) Plus I second JaK's comments re: the Staunton, its very dangerous for Black if you don't know the theory.

Basil
29-05-2008, 07:26 AM
I've played the Leningrad version of the Dutch fairly often. But I don't think you can get there via France! ;)
Right - that's nough - no more puns on the geographoical location of France, Holland, and Russia thanks :lol:


Plus I second JaK's comments re: the Staunton, its very dangerous for Black if you don't know the theory.

If you look up Spiny's comment in Wki, you'll see this :wall: :wall: :wall:

http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=144278&postcount=34

Garrett
29-05-2008, 08:49 AM
it won't always work, Belgium is in the way :)
Cheers and good luck

The Nazi's didn't seem to think Belgium was in the way of anything.

Intuition
29-05-2008, 11:32 AM
oh well...some informative comments but the thread seem to have been highjacked by geography lecturers...the question still remains about the aggressivness of the opening...do you score well with against it? low draw rate?? many closed games?? attacking games?? all out slaghter by both sides?? quiet games?? :wall:

Garrett
29-05-2008, 11:40 AM
okay - on a more serious note.

I have played against the Dutch a few times and there were no draws.

I guess I would call it an 'aggressive' opening in that black goes for an unbalanced position which may be slightly worse but with dynamic chances.

Have fun.

Desmond
29-05-2008, 11:50 AM
In my opinion it is not an aggressive opening. It often does lead to kingside attacks though, it just takes a while to get there.

MichaelBaron
29-05-2008, 12:10 PM
It really depends what line of the Dutch you are playing and how you are going ti interprete it.

And let me repete my favorite quote "there are no good and bad openings - there are good and bad players"
Similarly it can be said "there are no agressive openings - there are agressive players"

Brian_Jones
29-05-2008, 12:20 PM
the trick is to always (where possible) enter the netherlands via france ;) 1... e6 2... f5

Still loses to g4! :)

Basil
29-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Still loses to g4! :)
If that is a pun on The G4, then it's probably one of the best I've ever seen. If not, then ... well, I enjoyed it all by myself.

Denis_Jessop
29-05-2008, 01:02 PM
Speaking seriously, from what I've read, the Dutch's popularity rests not on its aggressiveness but on the fact that it is not as greatly analysed as more popular openings and that it leads to an unbalanced position. As Michael says, it's how you play it that matters. In a way it's like the Sicilian which can be played in so many different ways that its character varies depending on which line you choose or, being Black, are allowed to choose. That's quite apart from whether you play your chosen line properly. Launching off into unusual, or relatively unusual, openings requires a lot of original study and a good knowledge of general opening principles if you are to stay out of trouble, let alone win.

DJ

Intuition
29-05-2008, 02:36 PM
thanks for advice everyone, yeah i guess it depends on a variety of factors as to whether its aggressive or not but I think I will give it a small try given that it at least unbalances the positon and leads to new interesting posssiblies on the board :)

Phil Bourke
29-05-2008, 04:12 PM
thanks for advice everyone, yeah i guess it depends on a variety of factors as to whether its aggressive or not but I think I will give it a small try given that it at least unbalances the positon and leads to new interesting posssiblies on the board :)
Now I am prepared 1 d4 !! f5?! 2 e4 !!!! Sounds like fun :)

MichaelBaron
29-05-2008, 04:15 PM
Still loses to g4! :)

Definitely a joke :)

DarkHorse
30-05-2008, 06:02 PM
the trick is to always (where possible) enter the netherlands via france ;)

1... e6 2... f5

This also avoids 2.Bg5 (which is an interesting and perfectly playable line)

MichaelBaron
31-05-2008, 02:01 AM
Now I am prepared 1 d4 !! f5?! 2 e4 !!!! Sounds like fun :)


Good choice! Actually this is a very dangerous gambit to play against - white gets to open both e and f files in exchange for the pawn

Desmond
31-05-2008, 09:17 AM
Good choice! Actually this is a very dangerous gambit to play against - white gets to open both e and f files in exchange for the pawnIt doesn't have to be played as a gambit either, black cannot hang on to the pawn.

Intuition
31-05-2008, 11:17 AM
Now I am prepared 1 d4 !! f5?! 2 e4 !!!! Sounds like fun :)

Dont waste too much of your time phil......after looking at it a bit more I actully think its not really anymore promising that more popular lines to d4(which considering its rarely played by GMs is a no brainer)..ill have no speical tricks ready for you in our next game unforutunately :P

MichaelBaron
31-05-2008, 11:54 AM
It doesn't have to be played as a gambit either, black cannot hang on to the pawn.

Actually he can...but it often leads to += due to white having sufficient positional compensation for it.

Desmond
31-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Actually he can...but it often leads to += due to white having sufficient positional compensation for it.How? 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 how does black keep the pawn?

Spiny Norman
31-05-2008, 03:55 PM
How? 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 how does black keep the pawn?
Certainly not via 3...d5? 4.Qh5+
Rather, 3...Nf6 where White then either tries:
4.f3 where Black should play either 4...Nc6 or 4...d5 (best); or
4.Bg5 Nc6
after which White can regain the pawn but has to concede the bishop pair in the process. The main line of the Staunton continues:
5.d5 Ne5
and the knight will find a home on f7

Desmond
31-05-2008, 05:44 PM
Certainly not via 3...d5? 4.Qh5+
Rather, 3...Nf6 where White then either tries:
4.f3 where Black should play either 4...Nc6 or 4...d5 (best); or
4.Bg5 Nc6
after which White can regain the pawn but has to concede the bishop pair in the process. The main line of the Staunton continues:
5.d5 Ne5
and the knight will find a home on f7Which was my point that white does not have to play a gambit and can regain the pawn.

Spiny Norman
01-06-2008, 07:29 AM
An alternative for Black is 4...c6 (instead of 4...Nc6) which, although White recovers the pawn, Black gets a comfortable enough position. For example:

1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Bxf6 (5.f3! is better) 5...exf6 6.Nxe4 d5 7.Ng3 Bd6

MichaelBaron
01-06-2008, 03:07 PM
How? 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 how does black keep the pawn?

Nf6 :)

of course you can play Bg5 and exchange on f6..but then black gets full equality. On the other hand, you can play f3 with strong play...but i do get to keep my pawn :)

charleschadwick
04-10-2008, 01:33 PM
As a d4 player I think there are several defences more difficult than the dutch for W to face. The Benko, Benoni, KID, Grunfeld and the Nimzoindian for starters.

charleschadwick
28-10-2008, 05:00 PM
whoops I just lost to the Dutch to Tony Dowden in the Burnie Shines tournament.
cheers C

eclectic
28-10-2008, 05:24 PM
on icc last night some were suggesting kramnik might resort to the dutch were anand to open with 1. d4 in game 11

Ivanchuk_Fan
28-10-2008, 07:26 PM
I was considering taking up the Dutch as my main defence to d4, but is it really an aggressive opening?? With my look at it so far it seems to lead to very closed positions or does it depend on how black decides to play? I would like to play aggressively for a win v d4, could it possiblity be that it starts off seeming quiet but later on when black pushes his kings pawns forward all hell breaks loose???

What are you experiences/thoughts which the dutch as black or white?? :)

Like all openings, it really depends on how White and Black want to play. But usually Black is able to obtain counterplay of some sort, often in the centre (e.g. with the pawn break ...e5, which is a common central advance in the Dutch). However, the Stonewall can lead to a positional struggle, although often with Black on the receiving end due to the inactive c8-bishop and the gaping hole on e5. Another positional variation is one where White prefers Nh3 to Nf3, with the idea of playing Nf4 and/or preparing a rapid e4 advance to stake a claim to further central space.

Igor_Goldenberg
03-11-2008, 11:07 AM
Sometimes white starts with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3. In this case Staunton gambit is not possible.

Some variation of Dutch (Stonewall and Leningrad) might allow black a dangerous attack on king-side and lead to a very sharp position. However, the same variation can lead to a dull near equal position. All depends on chosen line, move order and other small details.

Dougy
03-11-2008, 02:41 PM
An alternative for Black is 4...c6 (instead of 4...Nc6) which, although White recovers the pawn, Black gets a comfortable enough position.

When I see this line it looks pretty close to refuting the Staunton. What has White got having the first move? Very little in my opinion. But here's an interesting line:

1. d4 f5 2. e4 fxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 c6 5. Bxf6 exf6 6. Nxe4 d5 7. Ng3 Bd6 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qh6

Spiny Norman
03-11-2008, 04:35 PM
4...c6 is not good in this line, as Beim states in his book "Understanding the Leningrad Dutch":

"I do not like this move, as Black neglects his development and does not attack the centre".

Instead, he recommends 4...Nc6 when White normally chooses between 5.f3 and 5.d5 (which is the Staunton's main line).

So I perhaps ought to retract my earlier comments.

Spiny Norman
03-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Dougy, in your line above, also possible is 7...Qe7+ and Black will hope to make use of his two bishops later.