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Basil
04-04-2008, 02:40 AM
Dead drawn or not? You tell me. All analysis in your head. Post your answer in white text.

White to move.

8/2k2p2/1p2pPp1/1Pp1Pn1p/K1P2P2/8/5B1P/8 w - - 18 48

CameronD
04-04-2008, 02:58 AM
Need to look closer tomorrow.

White cant do anything with his bishop and his pawns are imobile.

Black may have some use with the good knight. Maybe black moves plan is ...

h4,h3,Nh6,Ng4, or if white inserts h3 thn plan of h4,Ng3 will make the knight active

Give more detail later, but I think black wins a pawn in all combinations.

Desmond
04-04-2008, 08:45 AM
draw

Kevin Bonham
04-04-2008, 11:52 AM
Dead drawn with anything near best play. White can make no progress if black simply shuffles his king on the queenside. Black can make no progress if white plays h3 preventing ...Ng4. The knight can get to g5 after ...h4 but it cannot actually do anything once there as it soon gets tied to the defence of the h-pawn or else the king comes over and drives it back. Note that if Black tries bringing king to h6 to push ...g5 White will at some stage win by Bxc5!

Vlad
04-04-2008, 11:58 AM
The Gunner obviously meant 1. Bc5... However, I do not see how it is winning after 1... bc 2. Ka5 Kb7 3. b6 Nd4 4. h4 Kc6
5. Ka6 Kd7 6. Ka7 Nc6 7 Kb7 Nb4 8 Ka7... Seem to be drawn unless I am missing something.

Capablanca-Fan
04-04-2008, 12:32 PM
Looks drawn. The Q-side lacks an entry point for both sides. White's K side is defensible. If Black plays h4, then it will do no more than exhange this for white's h-pawn. White's advanced Ps restrict Black's pieces a lot that if the Black K moves outside the square of the bP to try to come through the K-side, then Bxc5 could even win for White.

Sunshine
04-04-2008, 02:34 PM
Draw !

White plays h3 and black has nowhere to move his knight and his king has nowhere to go.

White's only access point is through a Bishop sac on c5 - but can only do this if the black king moves away.

Aaron Guthrie
04-04-2008, 04:12 PM
The winning try for white seems to be 1.Bxc5, I guess playing it right away too other wise Black next plays Kb7 which helps him defend against this plan. So 1.Bxc5 bxc5 2.Ka5 Kb7 3.b6 Nd4 4.h4 Nc6 5.Kb5 Nb8 and keep shuffling the knight from b8 to c6, should secure at least a draw. That is all I can be bothered figuring out.

Vlad
04-04-2008, 08:14 PM
The winning try for white seems to be 1.Bxc5, I guess playing it right away too other wise Black next plays Kb7 which helps him defend against this plan. So 1.Bxc5 bxc5 2.Ka5 Kb7 3.b6 Nd4 4.h4 Nc6 5.Kb5 Nb8 and keep shuffling the knight from b8 to c6, should secure at least a draw. That is all I can be bothered figuring out.



After 6. Kc5... and 7. Kd7... and then collecting the pawn on f7, white is winning. That is why black has to play 4... Kc6, see my comment above.

Aaron Guthrie
04-04-2008, 08:36 PM
Yep you are right about that plan drug. When I imagined it before for some reason c5 was un-traversable (but I imagined c5 was empty, odd). But! There is an alternative to Kc6, Nf5! wins I think. Point being- 4... Nf5! 5.Kb5 Nxh4 6.Kxc5 Nf5 and now Kd6 is blocked, so 7.Kb5 intending c5-c6 etc, but now Nd4+, Nc6, and this time doesn't shuffle. Instead the intetion is to play h3 etc, which makes the King walk to f7 too slow.

Basil
04-04-2008, 08:52 PM
I will post the analysis and what happened later this evening (with commentary of course!). Any last tries? (in your heads of course ;))
And good on everyone for having a bash at it :clap:

Adamski
04-04-2008, 09:02 PM
I will post the analysis and what happened later this evening (with commentary of course!). Any last tries? (in your heads of course ;))
And good on everyone for having a bash at it :clap:Black has winning chances because White's Bishop is almost moveless. Knight forks abound.

Basil
05-04-2008, 12:13 AM
8/2k2p2/1p2pPp1/1Pp1Pn1p/K1P2P2/8/5B1P/8 w - - 18 48
Yes, the position is dead drawn. However ... !

Genius over here decided OTB that Bxc5 did work. It doesn't! The knight covers everything. What's more, white's king is forced back with a tempo and the knight eats enough space for a black passer.

Here's the game and the finish. Black has 30 seconds (10 sec inc) when white sacked.

[Event "Autumn Swiss"]
[Date "2008.04.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Howard Duggan"]
[Black "Tyson Walker"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1562"]
[BlackElo "1598"]
[ECO "A47"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bb7 5. Nbd2 d5 6. Qe2 Nbd7 7. Ne5 Nxe5 8.dxe5 Ne4 9. c3 Nc5 10. Bc2 Ba6 11. Ba4+ Nxa4 12. Qxa6 Nc5 13. Qe2 Qg5 14. f4 Qg6 15. Qb5+ Ke7 16. O-O Qd3 17. Qxd3 Nxd3 18. e4 Kd7 19. Rf3 dxe4 20. Nxe4 Nc5 21. Nf2 Rd8 22. b4 Na6 23. Rd3+ Kc8 24. Rxd8+ Kxd8 25. Ne4 Be7 26. Be3 Kc8 27.
Rd1 Rd8 28. Rxd8+ Kxd8 29. g4 c5 30. b5 Nc7 31. c4 a6 32. a4 axb5 33. axb5 g6 34. g5 Ne8 35. Kf2 Ng7 36. Nf6 Bxf6 37. gxf6 Nf5 38. Kf3 Kd7 39. Bf2 h5 40. Kg2 Kc7 41. Kh3 Kd7 42. Kg2 Kd8 43. Kf1 Kd7 44. Ke1 Kd8 45. Kd2 Kd7 46. Kc3 Kc7 47.Kb3 Kb7 48. Ka4 Kc7 49. Bxc5 bxc5 50. Ka5 Kb7 51. b6 Nd4 52. h3 h4 53. Ka4 Kxb6 54. Ka3 Ne2 0-1

Garvinator
05-04-2008, 02:00 AM
Gunner,

On move 30, instead of b5, did you contemplate swapping everything off and going to a K + P ending? This might have been harder for Tyson to play well since he was surfing the increment.

Garrett
05-04-2008, 09:22 AM
bad luck Howard.

I admire your courage though. Would have been tempting to sit on the position and take the draw against the higher rated opponent.

cheers
George.

Capablanca-Fan
05-04-2008, 10:11 AM
[Event "Autumn Swiss"]
[Date "2008.04.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Howard Duggan"]
[Black "Tyson Walker"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1562"]
[BlackElo "1598"]
[ECO "A47"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bb7 5. Nbd2 d5 6. Qe2 Nbd7 7. Ne5 (this is too loosening at the moment) 7... Nxe5 8.dxe5 Ne4 (8... Nd7) 9. c3 (9. Nxe4) 9... Nc5 10. Bc2 Ba6 11. Ba4+ (The only move, but it means that White is losing his light-squared B with all the central Ps fixed on dark squares. This indicates that White's plan is doubtful) 11... Nxa4 12. Qxa6 Nc5 13. Qe2 Qg5 (Black could have played normal developing moves because he has the long-term advantage) 14. f4 Qg6 (14... Qh4+ 15. g3 Qh3 weaking White's light squares further and preventing castling for now. A Q swap would probably occur under more favourable conditions than the game) 15. Qb5+ Ke7 (15... Kd8 is less self-blocking) 16. O-O Qd3 17. Qxd3 Nxd3 18. e4 Kd7 19. Rf3 dxe4 20. Nxe4 Nc5 21. Nf2 Rd8 22. b4 Na6 23. Rd3+ Kc8 24. Rxd8+ Kxd8 25. Ne4 Be7 26. Be3 Kc8 27.
Rd1 Rd8 28. Rxd8+ Kxd8 29. g4 c5 30. b5 Nc7 31. c4 a6 32. a4 axb5 33. axb5 g6 34. g5 Ne8 35. Kf2 Ng7 36. Nf6 Bxf6 37. gxf6 Nf5 38. Kf3 Kd7 39. Bf2 h5 40. Kg2 Kc7 41. Kh3 Kd7 42. Kg2 Kd8 43. Kf1 Kd7 44. Ke1 Kd8 45. Kd2 Kd7 46. Kc3 Kc7 47.Kb3 Kb7 48. Ka4 Kc7 49. Bxc5 (this is sometimes called "playing for the loss") 49... bxc5 50. Ka5 Kb7 51. b6 Nd4 52. h3 h4 53. Ka4 Kxb6 54. Ka3 Ne2 0-1

Garrett
05-04-2008, 12:00 PM
bad luck Howard.

I admire your courage though. Would have been tempting to sit on the position and take the draw against the higher rated opponent.

cheers
George.

I didn't realise your rating was as high as it is Howie.

Has it gone up recently ?

Cheers
Garrett

Phil Bourke
05-04-2008, 04:43 PM
I would love to give you a sneering look and say "How dumb was that?" :) But, I too have a collection of these sort of miscalculations :D
If it helps, I have catalogued them under "I am human, not an engine!" :)

Kevin Bonham
05-04-2008, 04:52 PM
I would love to give you a sneering look and say "How dumb was that?" :) But, I too have a collection of these sort of miscalculations :D

Here's an old game I lost to a similar bishop sac (except that this one is completely sound unlike Gunner's) from what had at one stage been a very good position. I simply did not see it coming!

Bonham - Fischer*
HICC Champs, 1996

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Qe2 a6 5.Bxd7+ Qxd7 6.c3 Nc6 7.d4 e5 8.dxc5 dxc5 9.0-0 Rd8 10.Na3!? Qd3 11.Qxd3 Rxd3 12.Nc4 f6 13.Be3 b5 14.Nb6 Rd8 15.Rfd1 Bd6 16.Rd2 c4 17.Rad1 Bc7 18.Nd5! White has a vice-like grip on the game now built up by outmaneuvering Black and should be able to win this easily. 18...Ba5 19.Nh4 Nge7 20.Bc5 Nxd5? 21.exd5 Nd4?! 22.Bxd4 exd4 23.Rxd4 Kf7 24.Re4 Rhe8 25.f3 g6 26.g4 Re7 27.Rxe7+ Kxe7 28.Ng2 Kd6 29.Nf4? This throws the pawn away. It should have been saved until Black's king was on a square that could have been checked from here. Unfortunately White has a silly idea and has missed the dramatic refutation. 29...Ke5 30.Ne6 Rxd5 31.Rxd5+? [31.Re1+ Kd6 32.Nf8 Rd2 33.Re6+ Kc7 34.b4 cxb3 35.axb3 Bxc3 36.Rxa6 Bd4+ 37.Kh1 Rb2 38.Nxh7=] 31...Kxd5 32.Nf8?? Don't decentralise pieces in the endgame, because this is what happens ... 32...Bxc3!! 33.Kf2 b4 34.Ke2 [Allows token resistance with 34.b3 Bd4+ 35.Ke2 c3] 34...b3 0-1

* I'd like to pretend it was Bobby, but actually it was a dude who changed his name by deed poll in Bobby's honour.

Capablanca-Fan
05-04-2008, 07:47 PM
Bonham - Fischer*
HICC Champs, 1996

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Qe2 a6 5.Bxd7+ Qxd7 6.c3 Nc6 7.d4 e5 8.dxc5 dxc5 9.0-0 Rd8 10.Na3!? [10. a4 first. Then Black won't be able to get counterchances with b5 and c4 as in the game, making an outpost of his own on d3 and making room for the 'orrible dark-squared B. Black was wrong to play e5 without his light-squared B, and dxc5 was the start of the right strategy to combat it] 10... Qd3 11.Qxd3 Rxd3 12.Nc4 f6 13.Be3 b5 14.Nb6 Rd8 15.Rfd1 Bd6 16.Rd2 c4 17.Rad1 Bc7 18.Nd5! White has a vice-like grip on the game now built up by outmaneuvering Black and should be able to win this easily. 18...Ba5 19.Nh4 Nge7 20.Bc5 Nxd5? 21.exd5 Nd4?! 22.Bxd4 exd4 23.Rxd4 Kf7 24.Re4 Rhe8 25.f3 g6 26.g4 Re7 27.Rxe7+ Kxe7 28.Ng2 Kd6 29.Nf4? This throws the pawn away. It should have been saved until Black's king was on a square that could have been checked from here. Unfortunately White has a silly idea and has missed the dramatic refutation. 29...Ke5 30.Ne6 Rxd5 31.Rxd5+? [31.Re1+ Kd6 32.Nf8 Rd2 33.Re6+ Kc7 34.b4 cxb3 35.axb3 Bxc3 36.Rxa6 Bd4+ 37.Kh1 Rb2 38.Nxh7=] 31...Kxd5 32.Nf8?? Don't decentralise pieces in the endgame, because this is what happens ... 32...Bxc3!! 33.Kf2 b4 34.Ke2 [Allows token resistance with 34.b3 Bd4+ 35.Ke2 c3] 34...b3 0-1