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View Full Version : David Hicks (sf. ursogr8's suspension)



Kevin Bonham
03-01-2008, 11:04 PM
Didn't he confess?:hmm:

Yes, as a plea bargain to get himself out of jail ASAP.

I've no reason to doubt he was guilty but any confession made as part of such a deal by a person who was held without trial for so long does not add anything to the evidence for guilt in my opinion.

CameronD
04-01-2008, 02:58 AM
Hicks confession holds no weight and would be thrown out in an australian citizens court as under duress. He was probably tortured often by the americans and held in inhuman conditions. The military tribunal is a kangaroo court with instructions to find everyone guilty. This was his only way to freeedom and I would've taken it as well.

i dont get angry over much, but this matter makes me crazy. The australian government should have withdrawn military support and be screaming over this instead of doing nothing. I have no problems with Australians legitamately being executed overseas, but being held for over 5 years and tortured without any liklyhood of trial or trial by kangaroo court must make the government take extreme measures.

Capablanca-Fan
04-01-2008, 08:09 AM
Hicks confession holds no weight and would be thrown out in an australian citizens court as under duress.
This may well be true. But why should we treat captured enemy soldiers as criminals? A citizen's court may well demand sensitive military information.


He was probably tortured often by the americans and held in inhuman conditions.
Gitmo treated the captured terrorists far better than they treated anyone else, and far better than the Indonesia jail is treating Schapelle Corby for a worse alleged crime. Indeed, Gitmo doesn't make exhausted and hungry people stand in line for hours and searched arbitrarily for any reason, unlike airline passengers, and feeds them better as well, so that most prisoners have gained weight.


The military tribunal is a kangaroo court with instructions to find everyone guilty.
Sounds like the Airport Gestapo, which treats all passengers as guilty. But usually their worst crime is carrying water or nail clippers.


This was his only way to freeedom and I would've taken it as well.
He doesn't have full freedom.


i dont get angry over much, but this matter makes me crazy. The australian government should have withdrawn military support and be screaming over this instead of doing nothing. I have no problems with Australians legitamately being executed overseas, but being held for over 5 years and tortured without any liklyhood of trial or trial by kangaroo court must make the government take extreme measures.
OTOH the Geneva Convention applies only to those surrendered soldiers who follow the rules. Even in WW2 during the Battle of the Bulge, German soldiers fluent in English and wearing American uniforms penetrated American lines. After captured, they were lined up against a wall and shot, and this was legitimate treatment for spies for centuries. Terrorists, that Hicks supported, are likewise at war with the West and refuse to play by the rules of the Geneva Convention, so should not expect to be treated accordingly. Meanwhile, they are treated as prisoners of war for the duration.

Southpaw Jim
04-01-2008, 10:29 PM
This issue makes me angry too.

I have no particular care for Hicks personally, and don't take a position either way on his guilt.

However, having a legal background, I'm appalled at the Australian Government's treatment of one of its citizens. Some particular issues relating to the behaviour of the Oz and US gov'ts:
- detention without charge or trial for nearly six years;
- detention in a facility that is not on US soil specifically to deny the prisoners access to the legal rights that any US criminal would be afforded;
- legal contortionism in attempting to establish a "legal" process that would render the desired result;
- characterisation of Hicks (and others) as "enemy combatants" and specifically not prisoners of war to avoid the application of the Geneva Convention;
- the fact that the US was paying US$10,000 as a bounty for any "Taliban fighters", which is how Hicks came to be captured and delivered to the US by Northern Alliance fighters;
- the complete disinterest of our government in looking after one of its own citizens, on the basis that they'd "seen the evidence" and Hicks' treatment was completely justified;
- the fact that what Hicks confessed to doing was not illegal at the time he did it;
- the Government's sudden interest in disposing of the issue when it became apparent that it might affect the election...

The list goes on, but whole sorry saga disgusts me. All I can say is I hope that neither I nor anyone I know happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ian Murray
04-01-2008, 10:41 PM
Even when Britain demanded and got repatriation of its citizens from Gitmo (then released them), Australia still toed the US line.

Hicks may have been a not-so-smart wannabe, but he deserved better treatment from his government

Axiom
05-01-2008, 01:20 AM
This issue makes me angry too.

I have no particular care for Hicks personally, and don't take a position either way on his guilt.

However, having a legal background, I'm appalled at the Australian Government's treatment of one of its citizens. Some particular issues relating to the behaviour of the Oz and US gov'ts:
- detention without charge or trial for nearly six years;
- detention in a facility that is not on US soil specifically to deny the prisoners access to the legal rights that any US criminal would be afforded;
- legal contortionism in attempting to establish a "legal" process that would render the desired result;
- characterisation of Hicks (and others) as "enemy combatants" and specifically not prisoners of war to avoid the application of the Geneva Convention;
- the fact that the US was paying US$10,000 as a bounty for any "Taliban fighters", which is how Hicks came to be captured and delivered to the US by Northern Alliance fighters;
- the complete disinterest of our government in looking after one of its own citizens, on the basis that they'd "seen the evidence" and Hicks' treatment was completely justified;
- the fact that what Hicks confessed to doing was not illegal at the time he did it;
- the Government's sudden interest in disposing of the issue when it became apparent that it might affect the election...

The list goes on, but whole sorry saga disgusts me. All I can say is I hope that neither I nor anyone I know happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Exactly ! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: BRAVO !

the war on terror is a fraud.
where are all these terrible terrorists?
where are they all? ........ pakistan, saudi arabia ? :doh: :wall:
but usa borders can be wide open :rolleyes:

i hope everyone is still checking behind their furniture. :lol:

ER
05-01-2008, 06:19 AM
i hope everyone is still checking behind their furniture. :lol:

and under???:hmm:

Cheers and good luck!!!

Spiny Norman
05-01-2008, 07:17 AM
I looked ... I found one ... it was me ... apparently I'm considered by some to be a thought terrorist, capable of misleading the entire population, subverting our children, single-handedly bringing down our entire education system ... and I even have shifty eyes.

As for David Hicks, I suspect the man is an idiot, but I can't prove it.

Southpaw Jim
05-01-2008, 07:26 AM
As for David Hicks, I suspect the man is an idiot, but I can't prove it.
I suspect that that is his most heinous crime.

Spiny Norman
05-01-2008, 07:41 AM
I suspect that that is his most heinous crime.
String him up ... we have to make an example of him ... so as to warn off all the other idiots! ;)

pax
05-01-2008, 09:54 AM
Meanwhile, they are treated as prisoners of war for the duration.
This is just the problem. They are not being treated as prisoners of war, and George Bush has consistently avoided referring to them as prisoners of war.

Capablanca-Fan
05-01-2008, 11:53 AM
This is just the problem. They are not being treated as prisoners of war, and George Bush has consistently avoided referring to them as prisoners of war.
They are being treated as POWs, too well considering that the terrorists are not following the rules that would entitle them to be treated according to the Geneva Convention.

Ian Murray
05-01-2008, 12:30 PM
Recommended reading: 'Detainee 002 - The Case of David Hicks' by Leigh Sales, Melb University Press 2007

Inter alia, the detention and treatment of captives at Gitmo are clearly in breach of international law

Capablanca-Fan
05-01-2008, 12:44 PM
Inter alia, the detention and treatment of captives at Gitmo are clearly in breach of international law
International law doesn't mean a thing. It is really international politics. The Geneva Convention applies only to soldiers who play by the rules. Even so, the captives are being treated with kid gloves at Gitmo, far better than most any captured Americans were treated by terrorists, and a lot better than Schapelle Corby is being treated in an Indonesian hellhole.

Ian Murray
05-01-2008, 07:47 PM
The Geneva Convention applies only to soldiers who play by the rules.
Quite so - they are not POWs, civilians or otherwise covered by the Geneva Conventions, so they are not subject to military law, but rather to civil law like any other criminal.

In western democracies criminals have rights under our rule of law - everyone is equal under the law. The Gitmo detainees have been denied those rights.

Corby's rights were upheld - she was charged without undue delay and had her day in court to face her accusers. Indonesian penal conditions may be deplorable by western standards, but are not relevant to this debate.

Capablanca-Fan
05-01-2008, 10:26 PM
Quite so - they are not POWs, civilians or otherwise covered by the Geneva Conventions, so they are not subject to military law,
They should be.


but rather to civil law like any other criminal.
Treating them like common criminals is just the way to lose the war on terror. As Thomas Sowell pointed out (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1327):


If the media and the liberals in Congress or the courts succeed in overturning the Bush administration's detention of hundreds of suspected terrorists, we may well see new outbreaks of terror in the United States. If liberals succeed in getting foreign terrorists tried in courts designed for American citizens, instead of in military tribunals, we can expect trials and appeals to drag on for years, if not decades, demoralizing and embittering the American public.

We can also expect international cooperation in sharing intelligence on terrorists to dry up, when foreign governments realize that their own intelligence operations can be revealed to their enemies by being brought out under the "discovery" rules of American courts.

None of those responsible for undermining our defenses against terrorists can be expected to admit to responsibility for a resurgence of terrorist acts that is almost certain to follow. But they may well succeed in confusing a frightened public into voting back into power the old politicians and the old policies that made us so vulnerable in the first place.


In western democracies criminals have rights under our rule of law ó
Good grief, nowadays airline passengers have fewer rights: we can be searched without cause, have all our drinks confiscated, and be generally manhandled. P.J. O'Rourke witnessed an elderly gentleman with arthritis in ahony after the Airport Gestapo made him remove his shoes.


everyone is equal under the law. The Gitmo detainees have been denied those rights.
They gave up their rights when they committed terrorism.


Corby's rights were upheld ó she was charged without undue delay and had her day in court to face her accusers.
Indonesian justice? You mean that which releases terrorist leaders after serving far less time than Corby?


Indonesian penal conditions may be deplorable by western standards, but are not relevant to this debate.
Yes they are. All the whinging about the Gitmo prison is very shallow considering that their conditions are far better than Corby's.

pax
05-01-2008, 10:51 PM
Yes they are. All the whinging about the Gitmo prison is very shallow considering that their conditions are far better than Corby's.
Where do you get your information about Corby's prison conditions? The impression I had was that it was a fairly corrupt system where bribery enabled a lot of privileges, and as a consequence, Corby has been ok. There aren't too many places where you can take media interviews from your prison cell..

Wheredidhego
05-01-2008, 11:08 PM
Treating them like common criminals is just the way to lose the war on terror.

Wrong!

The war on terror will be won only when the West leaves the middle east with a fill withdrawl and submits to Islam's legitimacy.

Capablanca-Fan
05-01-2008, 11:09 PM
Where do you get your information about Corby's prison conditions? The impression I had was that it was a fairly corrupt system where bribery enabled a lot of privileges, and as a consequence, Corby has been ok. There aren't too many places where you can take media interviews from your prison cell..
That's not the impression I get. It is full of tropical diseases, and completely lacks hygiene. I'd be surprised if she lasted if she serves out the excessive sentence. But you're right, it is a fairly corrupt system.

Capablanca-Fan
05-01-2008, 11:11 PM
Wrong!

The war on terror will be won only when the West leaves the middle east with a fill withdrawl and submits to Islam's legitimacy.
Just as Chamberlain thought he had peace in his time by appeasement of Hitler. And if only Israel would commit mass suicide, all would be well in the middle east.

Wheredidhego
05-01-2008, 11:16 PM
Just as Chamberlain thought he had peace in his time by appeasement of Hitler. And if only Israel would commit mass suicide, all would be well in the middle east.
No!

If everyone would submit to Islam and become Muslim much of the conflict and problem go away!

Capablanca-Fan
05-01-2008, 11:20 PM
No!

If everyone would submit to Islam and become Muslim much of the conflict and problem go away!
Then the Muslims can concentrate on fighting each other, which they manage pretty well anyway.

Basil
05-01-2008, 11:30 PM
If everyone would submit to Islam and become Muslim much of the conflict and problem go away!
ummm ... that sounds a little ... ummm ... never mind.

Capablanca-Fan
08-01-2008, 01:44 AM
It didnít get a lot of attention, but in mid-December, U.S. forces in Iraq discovered an al Qaeda torture center north of Baghdad. Muqdadiya is about 60 miles north of the capital. American soldiers found a blood-spattered room where chains still hung on the gory walls. A metal bed frame was still connected to an electric shock generator. The Americans also found bloody knives and swords. Outside, the bodies of 26 people were buried in common graves... Last May, according to The Smoking Gun website, U.S. troops unearthed an even more grisly site, an al Qaeda torture chamber in Baghdad itself. When they entered, the soldiers found an Iraqi man suspended from the ceiling by chains. The room contained torture implements including hammers, whips, meat cleavers and wire cutters as well as a crude torture manual, displaying various methods of inflicting unbearable pain. These included using a blowtorch on the skin, gouging out eyes, using an electric drill to cut through a hand, and many more.
óMona Charen

Patrick Byrom
29-07-2012, 07:01 PM
Yes, as a plea bargain to get himself out of jail ASAP.
I've no reason to doubt he was guilty but any confession made as part of such a deal by a person who was held without trial for so long does not add anything to the evidence for guilt in my opinion.
Some new info has surfaced recently. Apparently Hicks pleaded guilty but didn't actually confess, using what is called an "Alford plea": http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-24/dpp-drops-hicks-case/4150326

I've never heard of it, but then I'm neither a lawyer nor an American :)

Kevin Bonham
29-07-2012, 07:33 PM
Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alford_plea

Damodevo
30-07-2012, 12:16 PM
Here is an interview (http://www.globalpolitician.com/print.asp?id=1802) with Col. Cucullo on his extensively researched book 'Inside Gitmo: The True Story Behind the Myths of Guantanamo Bay'. As usual there is a plethora of lies coming from the left viz., Gitmo;


If the public could see inside the prison, would they be outraged by inhumane conditions?

They would be surprised by how clean, orderly and relatively benign things are given the fact that it is a detention center for some of the worst terrorists on the planet. There are several camps ranging from minimum security (Camp IV) to the maximum security (Camp V). Another camp (VI) is under construction. The latter two are based on the federal penitentiary system with the exception of having space for interrogation and a high-tech medical clinic inside. The concept is to minimize outside transit with the detainees. All exercise and recreation space is inside an internal compound.

Cells in maximum security camps are larger than in a federal penitentiary, are high-tech to prevent harm to detainees or guards, and are open to corridors so that detainees can converse and see others. The worst (about 10%) are segregated but not isolated. Thatís an important difference.

In the minimum security camps, 10 detainees live in a dorm-like setting. They pray, eat, and interact daily. Most have recreation time. All the detainees have an Islamic prayer kit consisting of the Koran, oils, beads, and a rug with an arrow pointing to Mecca. The call for prayer sounds five times daily. Ramadan is observed (if they want to on an individual basis) by having pre-dawn and post-sunset meals. There is a special feast for Eid ul-Fitr.

Provisions are there for hygiene, massive medical oversight and care, and an extraordinary focus on feeding. I have an entire chapter written on the food service and nutrition. Americans might be somewhat upset to see that the detainees eat better than the American guards.

Mrs Jono
30-07-2012, 03:51 PM
Here is an interview (http://www.globalpolitician.com/print.asp?id=1802) with Col. Cucullo on his extensively researched book 'Inside Gitmo: The True Story Behind the Myths of Guantanamo Bay'. As usual there is a plethora of lies coming from the left viz., Gitmo;

Cucullo maintains a "companion website" to his book, which he says "provides a dynamic platform that is easily updated", including a gallery (http://www.insidegitmo.com/Features/Gallery.html).

Patrick Byrom
12-01-2015, 05:16 PM
Some new info has surfaced recently. Apparently Hicks pleaded guilty but didn't actually confess, using what is called an "Alford plea": http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-24/dpp-drops-hicks-case/4150326
And now Hicks has officially been declared innocent: (http://www.cla.asn.au/News/hicks-officially-innocent-pentagon-admits/)
"But the Pentagon said on 9 Jan that the charges had been dismissed. A brief statement cited rulings by an appeals court that material support is not a legitimate war crime under the law authorising military commissions. Noor is officially innocent. Therefore, so too is David Hicks."

antichrist
17-02-2015, 12:54 AM
I have met Hick's dad when campaigning years ago he seems a very decent simple guy who just wanted to save his son.