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Davidflude
01-12-2007, 09:44 AM
I had a discussion with a contact yesterday whose wife was a coalition candidate at a previous election.

We realized something which in my opinion is truly horrible.

Both Labour and the Coalition have tended to have leaders that are not terribly good.

Think about it.

Whitlam - Yuk

Fraser - O.K.

Hayden - inadequate

Hawke - brilliant

Keating - too effing elitist

Peacock - lacked ticker

Howard - a very clever politician

Beazley - lacked ticker

Latham - yukky poo.

Rudd - to early to tell what Tintin is like

I will not even mention the other Labour leaders.

Just when we need a really strong opposition to keep the bastards honest the coalition has inexperienced leadership.

Nelson is a janissary with all the strengths and weaknesses that entails. Julie Bishop looks OK. Turnbull is inexperienced. Shadow Treasurer is a great job to find out what he is really capable of and his strengths and weaknesses.

What would concern me most if I were a Liberal Party member is that the party is in denial. They are like the football clubs who do not realize that they are over the top and that it is time for a clean out and to start rebuilding. It is time for short term pain for long term gain. Costello Downer, Ruddock Bronwyn Bishop should draw stumps at the first suitable opportunity.

Spiny Norman
01-12-2007, 10:29 AM
Janissary .. I'm impressed! ... had never heard of the word until this very minute (this doesn't happen often!) ... at first I guessed at its meaning and came up with the idea that it related somehow to being Janus-faced (or two-faced) ... but apparently:

a loyal supporter; "every politician has a following of janissaries"

a Turkish soldier
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The Janissaries comprised infantry units that formed the Ottoman sultan's household troops and bodyguard. The force originated in the 14th century; it was abolished by Sultan Mahmud II in 1826 in The Auspicious Incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2007, 10:31 AM
Janissary .. I'm impressed! ... had never heard of the word until this very minute

Me neither.

Capablanca-Fan
01-12-2007, 10:38 AM
Me neither.
I'd never heard of psephology before I saw it in your posts, which is bad for a logophile like me ;)

Denis_Jessop
01-12-2007, 11:50 AM
It's odd how one comes across words. I first came across "janissary" about 30 years ago as I am a keen reader of detective stories and Penguin published four volumes of stories of "The Rivals of Sherlock Homes" edited by Hugh Greene. One of the stories was called "The Case of Janissary" by Arthur Morrison, Janissary being the name a racehorse in this case.

As for psephologist keen watchers of the ABC's Federal election coverages years ago would have been aware of it as Malcolm Mackerras was the psephologist who gave a commentary, often wildly inaccurate, on the election results as they came in. He doesn't do it now but is still alive - he is a brother of Sir Charles Mackerras, the Australian orchestral conductor, and used to lecture at ADFA (the Australian Defence Force Academy) in Canberra on political science or the like. I dare say Anthony Green is also a psephologist though I haven't heard him described as such.

DJ

Davidflude
01-12-2007, 03:32 PM
Janissary .. I'm impressed! ... had never heard of the word until this very minute (this doesn't happen often!) ... at first I guessed at its meaning and came up with the idea that it related somehow to being Janus-faced (or two-faced) ... but apparently:

a loyal supporter; "every politician has a following of janissaries"

a Turkish soldier
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The Janissaries comprised infantry units that formed the Ottoman sultan's household troops and bodyguard. The force originated in the 14th century; it was abolished by Sultan Mahmud II in 1826 in The Auspicious Incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

The thing about the Janissaries were that they were Christian youths who were converted to Islam and became the Ottoman empires fiercest warriors. So with Nelson who converted from the brothers to the coalition and since then has been a tireless worker.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2007, 07:06 PM
So with Nelson who converted from the brothers to the coalition and since then has been a tireless worker.

And it's not such an unusual thing after all. Didn't stop Billy Hughes or Joseph Lyons after all.

Southpaw Jim
01-12-2007, 08:57 PM
Obviously none of you were committed Age of Empires III players! I thought everyone knew what a Janissary was..

:uhoh:

pax
01-12-2007, 11:46 PM
I thought it was interesting that the Libs went for the boring nerdy candidate over the more charismatic proposition. I suppose boring and nerdy worked for the last two PMs..

Although I have to say the "I have never voted Liberal in my life" soundbite was pretty priceless. And in 1993, it was only a year before he joined the Liberal party, and three years before he won a seat as a Lib! Quite the conversion..

Basil
02-12-2007, 12:01 AM
Quite the conversion..
You'll find quite a few ppl convert left to right as they 'see' a bit more. I've known quite a few :wall:

I'm yet to meet (or hear about) one going the other way, although I'm sure they exist (not including the pretenders on this board). And certainly not including young-uns from conservative families who switch once they hit puberty. I'm talking about adults - which in my book is approx age 25.

EDIT: Not talking swingers either.

Capablanca-Fan
02-12-2007, 12:01 AM
I thought it was interesting that the Libs went for the boring nerdy candidate over the more charismatic proposition. I suppose boring and nerdy worked for the last two PMs..
And the current one.


Although I have to say the "I have never voted Liberal in my life" soundbite was pretty priceless. And in 1993, it was only a year before he joined the Liberal party, and three years before he won a seat as a Lib! Quite the conversion..
Not much different from Nicole "Airhead" Colmes, who was not even a member of the ALP or a union and confessed she had voted Liberal in the past, but Labor was happy for the wife when they couldn't get the husband.

Kevin Bonham
02-12-2007, 12:07 AM
I thought it was interesting that the Libs went for the boring nerdy candidate over the more charismatic proposition. I suppose boring and nerdy worked for the last two PMs..

I don't think Nelson is boring and nerdy as a personality. I do think his approach to policy fits that bill though.

eclectic
02-12-2007, 12:57 PM
Not much different from Nicole "Airhead" Colmes, who was not even a member of the ALP or a union and confessed she had voted Liberal in the past, but Labor was happy for the wife when they couldn't get the husband.

i'm kind of curious to know for how long you intend to keep sticking your boot into her?

the surname is actually [ ______ ] unless of course you're deliberately misspelling it to avoid possible legal action ;)

Capablanca-Fan
02-12-2007, 01:10 PM
i'm kind of curious to know for how long you intend to keep sticking your boot into her?
No, sticking the boot into Labor for selecting people like her.


the surname is actually [ ______ ] unless of course you're deliberately misspelling it to avoid possible legal action ;)
Of course. I know how leftists love litigation :P

pax
02-12-2007, 01:42 PM
And the current one.
That's who I meant. I don't think you could accuse Keating of being boring.



Not much different from Nicole "Airhead" Colmes, who was not even a member of the ALP or a union and confessed she had voted Liberal in the past, but Labor was happy for the wife when they couldn't get the husband.

Quite a lot different, when you consider that a) she didn't get into parliament, and b) she wasn't elected leader of the party. Completely different in fact, although it is clear that Labor's nomination of Cornes (and failure to replace her when it was clear she was a disaster) was a substantial blunder that probably cost them a seat.

pax
02-12-2007, 01:44 PM
No, sticking the boot into Labor for selecting people like her.

Do I need to remind you that the Liberal party originally endorsed Pauline Hanson?

Igor_Goldenberg
02-12-2007, 02:43 PM
Do I need to remind you that the Liberal party originally endorsed Pauline Hanson?
They, however, disendorsed her when a true colour was revealed (unlike Labour with Cornes)

pax
02-12-2007, 02:50 PM
They, however, disendorsed her when a true colour was revealed (unlike Labour with Cornes)

Hanson was exposed as a racist bigot, whereas Cornes was exposed as a bit incompetent. It's not quite the same kettle of fish (but I do think Labor would have been better served to disendorse Cornes).

Capablanca-Fan
03-12-2007, 12:38 PM
A loss for civilisation (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22857673-7583,00.html)
The Australian
3 Dec 07

What mattered to the world was the strategic clarity Howard's ministry demonstrated on the critical issues facing (if you'll forgive the expression) Western civilisation.

First, the prime minister grasped the particular challenge posed by Islam. "I've heard those very silly remarks made about immigrants to this country since I was a child," said the Democrats' Lyn Allison. "If it wasn't the Greeks, it was the Italians ... or it was the Vietnamese." But those are races and nationalities. Islam is a religion, and a political project, and a globalised ideology. Unlike the birthplace of your grandfather, it's not something you leave behind in the old country.

Indeed, the pan-Islamic identity embraced by many second and third-generation Muslims in the West has very little to do with where their mums and dads happen to hail from. "You can't find any equivalent in Italian or Greek or Lebanese or Chinese or Baltic immigration to Australia. There is no equivalent of raving on about jihad," said Howard, stating the obvious in a way most of his fellow Western leaders could never quite bring themselves to do.

...

Likewise, Peter Costello. Sympathising with Muslims who wish to live under sharia law, he mused: "There are countries that apply religious or sharia law: Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind. If a person wants to live under sharia law these are countries where they might feel at ease. But not Australia." It's a glum reflection on the times that such an observation should be controversial.

Yet it stands in marked contrast to, say, the Dutch Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner, who remarked that if the electors voted to bring in sharia he'd be OK with that, or the Swedish politician who said that Swedes should be "nice to Muslims while we are in the majority so that when they are in the majority they will be nice to us".

Underpinning those words is the realisation that most of the Western world is very demographically weakened. Immigration adds to the gaiety of the nation, improves the choice of restaurants and makes pasty-faced white folks feel very virtuous about their multiculti bona fides, but a dependence on immigration is always a structural weakness, and should be addressed as such. At a time of unparalleled prosperity and peace, the majority of developed nations have chosen, in effect, to give up on the future. Howard's ministry was one of the first governments to get this and, in contrast to the dismal Euro-fatalism above, to try to do something to reverse it.

...

And that brings us to the Coalition's next great strand of strategic clarity. At his 2006 education summit, Howard called for "a root and branch renewal of Australian history in our schools, with a restoration of narrative instead of what I labelled the 'fragmented stew of themes and issues"'.

As he explained at the Quadrant 50th anniversary celebration: "This is about ensuring children are actually taught their national inheritance." The absence of a "narrative" and an "inheritance" is a big part of the reason that British subjects born and bred blow up the London Tube, why young Canadian Muslims with no memory of living in any other society plot to behead their own prime minister.

You can't assimilate immigrants and minorities unless you give them something to assimilate to. It's one thing to teach children their history "warts and all", quite another to obsess on the warts at the expense of all else. The West's demographic weakness is merely the physical embodiment of a broader loss of civilisational confidence. Australia should never have had a "department of immigration and multicultural affairs", but, given that it did, Howard was right to rename it the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. Government should promote citizenship, not multiculturalism.

The Coalition was all but unique in understanding the three great challenges of the age Islamism, demography, civilisational will that in other parts of the West are combining to form the perfect storm. Just as importantly, unlike so many second-tier powers, Australia did not put its faith in the chimera of insipid obsolescent transnational talking shops in which attitudes substitute for policy. I liked to call Alexander Downer my favorite foreign minister, which, in hindsight, was damning with the faintest of praise.

After all, I'm not sure during his long tenure how many candidates there ever were for runner-up: Dominique de Villepin? Britain's Robin Cook and Margaret Beckett? Canada's Lloyd Axworthy and Bill Graham? Colin Powell I never expected much from, but few hitherto clear-headed types have shrunk in office as remorselessly as Condi Rice. I loved Downer for his gleeful mockery of transnationalism and its pointless committees stuffed with representatives of what he called "busted arse countries".

In more genteel mode, he put it like this: "Multilateralism is a synonym for an ineffective and unfocused policy involving internationalism of the lowest common denominator." See Darfur, the Iranian nukes, the UN's flop response to the tsunami. If it's right to intervene in the Sudan, it's not wrong because the Russian guy declines to stick his hand up at the relevant meeting. The Howard years saw the emergence of a regional power that, from East Timor to Solomon Islands, understood its responsibilities at a time when the Euro-Canadian poseurs shrunk from theirs.

Spiny Norman
03-12-2007, 02:22 PM
I loved Downer for his gleeful mockery of transnationalism and its pointless committees stuffed with representatives of what he called "busted arse countries".
Well said ...

Capablanca-Fan
03-12-2007, 03:00 PM
Well said ...
And now Chairman KRudd, the Manchurian Candidate, wants us to sign one of the protocols formulated by those those busted arse countries, which will cost Australia a $1.6 billion fine in carbon credits (or if Turnbull was right (http://www.environment.gov.au/minister/env/2007/pubs/mr02may207.pdf), he is off by a factor of 10 so it's "only" $160 million). Fresh and clean New Zealand already owes NZ$708 million (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22597157-5007146,00.html)to busted arse filthy countries lucky enough to have carbon indulgences. Of course, if all of Australia went to live in caves and stopped all fossil fuel use, it would reduce the world's manmade CO2 emissions by only 1.5%.

Basil
03-12-2007, 03:44 PM
Gentlemen, gentlemen. You talking to either the converted or people prancing around in T-shirts awaiting Mary's computer. Cracking story though!