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ursogr8
02-06-2004, 09:40 PM
Wanted. A forensic archivist.

I had occasion last night to read the list of winners engraved on the Harold Mercer Cup. This Cup was first presented by Dr. Robert Steiner, and re-presented annually to the Junior Chess Champion of Australia.
The inaugural winner was in 1949 and simple arithmetic explains why the Cup is looking a bit weather-beaten.
Closer inspection revealed a number of anomalies that warrant forensic investigation (as this is what we do in June in Melbourne, between football games). I will list the winners and describe a few challenges along the way.
The first column reads
1949 W. Levick NSW
1950 J.S. Purdy NSW
1951 J. Hortovanyi SA
1952 M. Brown NSW
1953 D. Robson Vic
1954 J. Hortovanyi SA
1955 A.M. Irving SA
1956 J. Ferguson SA
1957 D Rudd SA
1958 R. Klinger NSW
1959 P.D. Lay NSW
1960 T. Hay NSW
1961 W. Alexander NSW
1962 M. Fuller NSW
1963 W. Kerr Vic
1964 W. Kerr Vic
1965 M. Woodhams WA
1966 A. Pope WA
We pause here for question #1. Explain the high correlation between winners (to date) and States.
1967 N. Craske SA
1968 J. Hendry NSW
1969 A. Sauran NSW
1970 A. Koelle Vic
1971 G. Melrose NSW
1972 R. Bartnick Vic
1973 W.Jordan Vic
1975 Ian Rogers Vic
A second pause, to ask two questions
Q#2 What happened in 1974?
Q#3 Why does Ian Rogers get the full first name engraved, contrary to all the previous?By the way, this is the end of the first column on the Cup.
Now to column two.
1974 D. Dick NSW
1977 D. Farrell NSW
D. Johansen Vic
Q#4 What happened in 1976.And you have probably figured out the engraving error for Q#2.
1978 M. Smith Vic
1979 S. Kerr NSW
1980 S. Solomon Vic
1981 R. Casse SA
1982 P. Broekhuese NSW
1983 K. Hornung SA
1984 P. Evans Qld
1985 T. Reilly NSW
1986 S. Hill NSW
1987 C. Davis NSW
1988 Lee Johnson NSW
1989 P. Cotton NSW
1990 N. Speck SA
1991 Lee Jones NSW
1992 Trevor Tao SA
1993 J.P. Wallace NSW
1994 R.L. Curtis NSW
1995 Charles Pizzato Qld
#@$%^&*(^)$#_(*^%$#@!
1996 David Cordover Vic
Q#5. You eyes did not deceive you. Truly, there is a line of engraver’s scratch-out marks just before the 1996 winner. How can these be explained?
1997 Max Leskiewicz
1998 Geoff Saw Vic
And here the lists finish; probably due to space considerations. The next names appear on shields nailed to the base of the trophy.
1999 David Smerdon
2000 Justin Tan
2001 Zhao Zong-Yuan
2002 Kuan-Kuan Tian
2003 Tomek Raj
2004 Denis Bourmistrov
Notice what has happened. We have dropped the State reference even though the shields give a lot of space. Q#6. Why?
There you have it. A little challenge for the forensic historians.

starter

jeffrei
02-06-2004, 10:22 PM
#@$%^&*(^)$#_(*^%$#@!
1996 David Cordover Vic
Q#5. You eyes did not deceive you. Truly, there is a line of engraver’s scratch-out marks just before the 1996 winner. How can these be explained?

Notice what has happened. We have dropped the State reference even though the shields give a lot of space. Q#6. Why?


Q2: Maybe Rogers won it twice?

Q5: I'm pretty sure this is right: when Max Leskiewicz got the trophy David Cordover's name wasn't yet engraved on it, and so the original engraving skipped from 1995 Charles Pizzato to 1997 Max Leskiewicz. This was later rectified. [It does look funny, though, as if some irate player/administrator couldn't handle the fact that DC won and went at the trophy with a screwdriver.] Nice Qld-Vic pattern going there for a while, but it got obliterated by that very strong pack of kids coming out of NSW.

Q6: Perhaps the assumption was that all future winners would be from NSW? :p [Frankly, a quite reasonable assumption given the huge strength differential between NSW juniors and juniors from other states]

I could add a few more questions, like:

Q7: Why does the trophy have a huge dent in it? It looks like someone's attacked it with a tennis racquet. When did that happen and who was responsible?

Q8: Why can't we get a new one? Not that I think fancy trophies are all that important, but it might be useful for newspaper photos and the like to have something better to display.

Rincewind
02-06-2004, 10:48 PM
Regarding your questions

#1 Not sure what you mean but there is a noticable absence of banana-benders.

#2 I think you answer this later. 1974 must have been missed out and added later. This might have been because they couldn't decide to engrave Chandler's name or not (see below).

#3 Not sure probably because it is a short name and the engraver did as he was told, without looking at the previous entries.

#4 Now this is the interesting one...

It's interesting to compare your post with the Aust Junior Champions List from the AF Website. http://www.auschess.org.au/acfrec.htm

When you compare the engravings with the record from the ACF website you will notice that there is a one year discrepency up until 1976. (The year IR was the junior champion). After that it is in synch. Not sure of the reason behind this but it could have to do with the tournament moving from December/January timeframe to something more in the contained in the whole year. Anyone know if this happened?

Another interesting discrepancy is Farrell seems to be mispelt on the ACF website (unless the winner was Fardell then the trophy is wrong), and according to the website the 1975 Title was held by Chandler and Dick. Whereas the trophy just has Dick. I assume this has something to do with Chandler's nationality. But I thought that might also preclude him from the ACF website (can't be Australian Junior Champion, if you're not Australian).

#5 seems to have been adequately explained by Jeffrei, however why they didn't just engrave it out of order is puzzling since there has been precident to do so.

#6 Is another interesting one. Probably linked to the increased comfort level that Australians have with the idea of federation. Hence a diminishing importantance placed on statehood. Or maybe because once one Queenslander won it, it didn't matter any more. ;)

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 12:35 AM
It appears the years on the ACF web site are correct and incorrect on the trophy.

e.g.
1968 was held in Adelaide from Jan 3rd and won by Noel Craske.
1971 was won by Arthur Koelle.
1972 was held in Sydney and won by Greg Melrose.
1973 was held in Adelaide from Jan 9th and was won by Robert Bartnik
1974 was held in Brisbane and won by Bill Jordan.
1975 was held in Tasmania and actually won by Murray Chandler and another NZ Kai Jensen was second. The title was won by David Dick who finished 3rd..
1976 was held in Victoria and won by Ian Rogers.
1977 was held in Perth and was jointly won by Darryl Johansen and Dan Fardell.
1978 was held in Ipswich and won by M.Smith.

All the above comes from Chess In Australia magazines.

Rincewind
03-06-2004, 12:43 AM
It appears the years on the ACF web site are correct and incorrect on the trophy.

e.g.
1968 was held in Adelaide from Jan 3rd and won by Noel Craske.
1971 was won by Arthur Koelle.
1972 was held in Sydney and won by Greg Melrose.
1973 was held in Adelaide from Jan 9th and was won by Robert Bartnik
1974 was held in Brisbane and won by Bill Jordan.
1975 was held in Tasmania and actually won by Murray Chandler and another NZ Kai Jensen was second. The title was won by David Dick who finished 3rd..
1976 was held in Victoria and won by Ian Rogers.
1977 was held in Perth and was jointly won by Darryl Johansen and Dan Fardell.
1978 was held in Ipswich and won by M.Smith.

All the above comes from Chess In Australia magazines.

Thanks for info. Do you have timing details on the events post 1976?

Is the trophy engraved incorrectly for Fardell or has the Starter's pistol gone off half-cocked? ;)

There is still a question then as to why Murray's name appears on the ACF's Honours Board.

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 12:48 AM
Thanks for info. Do you have timing details on the events post 1976?
As far as I can tell the ones from 71-76 were all held in January and not the previous december.
I just checked an old Chess Bulletin (official organ of the NSWCA) back prior to CIA for Feb 1963 and it notes the 1963 event was held in Brisbane in January and was won by Max Fuller.
When I have more time I will look back thru old Chess World mags as well.

Is the trophy engraved incorrectly for Fardell or has the Starter's pistol gone off half-cocked? ;)
I would assume the trophy is wrong unless starter made a typing error.


There is still a question then as to why Murray's name appears on the ACF's Honours Board.
I would assume thats just a mistake. CIA makes it clear that Dick was the champion. The other two were ineligible.

Rincewind
03-06-2004, 01:06 AM
I would assume thats just a mistake. CIA makes it clear that Dick was the champion. The other two were ineligible.

I've mentioned this to the webmaster via email. By coincidence, he is also a former Aust. Junior Champion.

boardumb
03-06-2004, 02:34 AM
I could add a few more questions, like:

Q7: Why does the trophy have a huge dent in it? It looks like someone's attacked it with a tennis racquet. When did that happen and who was responsible?
oooh, me. me!
i believe it had nothing to do with a bluish creature with white nightcap and stockings.

the year may or may not have been 6661.

scary? i think end of days may have been a quite sucky movie.

ursogr8
03-06-2004, 07:58 AM
Regarding your questions

#1 Not sure what you mean but there is a noticable absence of banana-benders.

Baz
I will phrase this better.
Notice that the trophy is often won in consecutive years by different players from the same State (up to the line I drew in the data). I was musing that perhaps the hosting was allocated to a State for consecutive years (in those early trophy days) and hence increased the chances of that State's participants winning in the following year.
I guess we might need a list of venues to answer this one?





#6 Is another interesting one. Probably linked to the increased comfort level that Australians have with the idea of federation. Hence a diminishing importance placed on statehood.


I think we should get an answer from the ACF on this change, if what you surmise is true.




Or maybe because once one Queenslander won it, it didn't matter any more. ;)


A classic line Baz. :D :clap:

But you had better duck for cover from those guys who hate being left off the map.


starter

ursogr8
03-06-2004, 08:02 AM
Is the trophy engraved incorrectly for Fardell or has the Starter's pistol gone off half-cocked? ;)



Baz
I admit to the barrel being a bit bent, but not to firing half-cocked. ;)

We need Denis to examine the trophy and report back whether I have misread Farrell for Fardell. (Fardell. Doesn't have anything to do with sheep does it?)
Denis, are you there?

starter

Brian_Jones
03-06-2004, 08:53 AM
1988 is Lee Jones (not Lee Johnson)

ursogr8
03-06-2004, 08:57 AM
1988 is Lee Jones (not Lee Johnson)
Thanks Brian
I will check if I can get to see the trophy again.
starter

jeffrei
03-06-2004, 10:51 AM
oooh, me. me!
i believe it had something to do with a bluish creature with white nightcap and stockings.

the year may or may not have been 6661.

scary? i think end of days may have been a quite sucky movie.

Hot dog! We have a wiener! Mr Boardumb is dead right...well done yaar! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Alan Shore
03-06-2004, 11:52 AM
Since we're on the topic of Australian Junior Champs, I remember being told one year when Jonathan Sarfati was playing.. I think he actually won the tournament yet was rendered inelegible since he was currently living in New Zealand (despite being born in Australia). Instead the title went to someone living in Australia that was born in England! (I don't remember the guy's name).

Am I the only one who thinks Sarfati was hard done by?

Oepty
03-06-2004, 12:37 PM
While on Junior Champions, I had it from 2 sources a couple of years ago that Adam Hanieh won the 1989 Australian Junior champs, but as the ACF webpage had P Cotton I thought they were both just wrong. Can anyone tell me though whether Adam Hanieh did ever win a title, especially in 1989. I would be interested in clearing this very slight mystery up.
Scott

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 01:24 PM
Since we're on the topic of Australian Junior Champs, I remember being told one year when Jonathan Sarfati was playing.. I think he actually won the tournament yet was rendered inelegible since he was currently living in New Zealand (despite being born in Australia). Instead the title went to someone living in Australia that was born in England! (I don't remember the guy's name).

Am I the only one who thinks Sarfati was hard done by?
This would have to have been around or just prior to 1982 given Sarfati's DOB.
I'll check out the details for the years 79-82 when I get home.

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 01:32 PM
Baz
I admit to the barrel being a bit bent, but not to firing half-cocked. ;)

We need Denis to examine the trophy and report back whether I have misread Farrell for Fardell. (Fardell. Doesn't have anything to do with sheep does it?)
Denis, are you there?

starter
Both the trophy and the ACf web page show Levic as the 1949 winner.
You claim the trophy shows John Purdy as the 1950 winner yet the ACF web page shows no winner for 1950.
John Purdy was the 1951 winner according to the web page.
Are you really certain all those incorrect years are as listed in your post on the trophy.
I find it amazing that the trophy has virtually 25 years of winners having incorrect years.

eclectic
03-06-2004, 02:24 PM
Both the trophy and the ACf web page show Levic as the 1949 winner.
You claim the trophy shows John Purdy as the 1950 winner yet the ACF web page shows no winner for 1950.
John Purdy was the 1951 winner according to the web page.
Are you really certain all those incorrect years are as listed in your post on the trophy.
I find it amazing that the trophy has virtually 25 years of winners having incorrect years.
Perhaps the event concerned was held so late in 1950 that it was decided to say that John Purdy would be regarded as champion for 1951.

The trophy engravers may however have used the actual playing year 1950.

A similar thing then happened to subsequent winners ... ?

This theory holds of course only if all 25 years are a year out of synch

eclectic

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 02:35 PM
Perhaps the event concerned was held so late in 1950 that it was decided to say that John Purdy would be regarded as champion for 1951.

The trophy engravers may however have used the actual playing year 1950.

A similar thing then happened to subsequent winners ... ?

This theory holds of course only if all 25 years are a year out of synch

eclectic
Generally engravers engrave what they are told.
Certainly the years are wrong in the late 60's and all of the 70' up to 76.
I'll try and check the others when I have the time.

ursogr8
03-06-2004, 03:21 PM
Generally engravers engrave what they are told.
Certainly the years are wrong in the late 60's and all of the 70' up to 76.
I try and check other others when I have the time.

Yes Bill but
If the first year was out-of-synch for any reason, and if each following year the engraver was given just a name and HE worked out the date, then as eclectic describes....the error could go on until either a Gazza or a Bill appeared and noticed.

starter

JGB
03-06-2004, 03:52 PM
Since we're on the topic of Australian Junior Champs, I remember being told one year when Jonathan Sarfati was playing.. I think he actually won the tournament yet was rendered inelegible since he was currently living in New Zealand (despite being born in Australia). Instead the title went to someone living in Australia that was born in England! (I don't remember the guy's name).

Am I the only one who thinks Sarfati was hard done by?


No I agree, is that really possible? If so Chess must be the only 'sport' that treats its players in such a way. In my opinon any Australian citizen is eligible to win an Australian title regardless of where they live. The title should go to the best Australian player (regardless of where that person is living). If it is true, its a sure good way to turn people off the Australian Chess circuit at a young age.

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 04:07 PM
No I agree, is that really possible? If so Chess must be the only 'sport' that treats its players in such a way. In my opinon any Australian citizen is eligible to win an Australian title regardless of where they live. The title should go to the best Australian player (regardless of where that person is living). If it is true, its a sure good way to turn people off the Australian Chess circuit at a young age.
Of course that depends on a number of things.
What if he was a member of the NZ chess federation and not a member of the Australian chess federation or of any Australian State association.

Title requirements at the time may have required you to be a Australian citizen or resident and a member of a state association.

The so called guy from England who won it may have met the criteria.

JGB
03-06-2004, 04:24 PM
Of course that depends on a number of things.
What if he was a member of the NZ chess federation and not a member of the Australian chess federation or of any Australian State association.

Title requirements at the time may have required you to be a Australian citizen or resident and a member of a state association.
.

I my opinion that should not matter if its an Australian title why is this necessary. Or has it something to do with paying the Australian Chess Federation playing fee's or registration? He would of had to pay to play in the
tournament and if he is an Australian citizen I don't see the problem, the rest is just politics is it not?

I don't see the problem.

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 04:35 PM
I my opinion that should not matter if its an Australian title why is this necessary. Or has it something to do with paying the Australian Chess Federation playing fee's or registration? He would of had to pay to play in the
tournament and if he is an Australian citizen I don't see the problem, the rest is just politics is it not?

I don't see the problem.
It is easy to say its just politics but the point is he has to meet the criteria.
No doubt he could have joined a state association.
One assumes he didnt.
He was clearly a member of the NZ Chess Federation and later went on to represent them in the Olympiad's.
Of course it could be argued why someone who has not been in Australia for many years, apparently contributed nothing to the sport in his home country up to that time, be allowed to just turn up and be eligible for a title.

JGB
03-06-2004, 04:41 PM
Because its his right as an Australian citizen.

Why does someone have to join a state Association? Im just curious because im here in Germany this does not exist here (I mean the necessity to join on association to be eligible to play in tournaments and win prizes etc)

JGB
03-06-2004, 04:44 PM
He was clearly a member of the NZ Chess Federation and later went on to represent them in the Olympiad's..

Maybe this was a result of him as a child being declined this Junior title?! :confused: Unsure but perhaps he was a bit sour from then on with the Aussie chess Fed, or pehaps it has nothing to do with this and hes just lives and plays in NZ.

Alan Shore
03-06-2004, 05:32 PM
Maybe this was a result of him as a child being declined this Junior title?! :confused: Unsure but perhaps he was a bit sour from then on with the Aussie chess Fed, or pehaps it has nothing to do with this and hes just lives and plays in NZ.

Actually Sarfati is now back in Australia and has lived here for many years.

I don't like those beuracratic fogies who look at the criteria and think 'oh well, it's not been met, so no cigar' rather than question the basis for the criteria in the first place.. you have to maintain an open mind and nothing should be set in stone or no progress would ever be made.

JGB
03-06-2004, 05:48 PM
Actually Sarfati is now back in Australia and has lived here for many years.

I don't like those beuracratic fogies who look at the criteria and think 'oh well, it's not been met, so no cigar' rather than question the basis for the criteria in the first place.. you have to maintain an open mind and nothing should be set in stone or no progress would ever be made.

Well I believe rules have to be followed, if it states in the rules that a player must be a member of an Australian state federation then the criteria must be followed. Otherwise it allows for far too much debate and causes problems, rules must be followed, the question is why do such rules exist?

Garvinator
03-06-2004, 05:58 PM
Well I believe rules have to be followed, if it states in the rules that a player must be a member of an Australian state federation then the criteria must be followed. Otherwise it allows for far too much debate and causes problems, rules must be followed, the question is why do such rules exist?
and also there are avenues to change rules, usually called an agm.

Kevin Bonham
03-06-2004, 06:56 PM
Since we're on the topic of Australian Junior Champs, I remember being told one year when Jonathan Sarfati was playing.. I think he actually won the tournament yet was rendered inelegible since he was currently living in New Zealand (despite being born in Australia). Instead the title went to someone living in Australia that was born in England! (I don't remember the guy's name).

Am I the only one who thinks Sarfati was hard done by?

Would be interesting to know what the rules at the time were. Currently either citizenship or permanent residency is required.

boardumb
03-06-2004, 07:02 PM
Baz
I admit to the barrel being a bit bent, but not to firing half-cocked. ;)

We need Denis to examine the trophy and report back whether I have misread Farrell for Fardell. (Fardell. Doesn't have anything to do with sheep does it?)
Denis, are you there?

starter
well i just asked denis and he says he's left it at box hill.

paulb
03-06-2004, 07:59 PM
...
1979 S. Kerr NSW
1980 S. Solomon Vic
1981 R. Casse SA
1982 P. Broekhuese NSW
...


Broekhuese???? Do they really spell it like that? My fifteen minutes of fame ruined! Groan!

ursogr8
03-06-2004, 10:01 PM
Broekhuese???? Do they really spell it like that? My fifteen minutes of fame ruined! Groan!


I was always impressed by that Agatha Christie story where the narrator was indeed the villain. (Qn. What was the title?).
And so, on this thread, there have been a number of deliberate easy errors made just to generate a few posts and be inclusive of those who have short attention spans (like 15 minutes). :uhoh: :p :hmm:

PaulB; did you really hold the trophy for a year (365 days, 52 weeks) and not check the spelling?

starter

ursogr8
03-06-2004, 10:01 PM
well i just asked denis and he says he's left it at box hill.
Next set of clues....Saturday

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 10:21 PM
Would be interesting to know what the rules at the time were. Currently either citizenship or permanent residency is required.
The Jan 1981 issue of Chess In Australia notes the Aus Junior for 1981 was held in Adelaide and that Rey Casse and Sarfati tied for first but that Sarfati was ineligible on "residential grounds".

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 10:25 PM
While on Junior Champions, I had it from 2 sources a couple of years ago that Adam Hanieh won the 1989 Australian Junior champs, but as the ACF webpage had P Cotton I thought they were both just wrong. Can anyone tell me though whether Adam Hanieh did ever win a title, especially in 1989. I would be interested in clearing this very slight mystery up.
Scott
The following is from the May/June and July/August 1989 issues of CIA.

The Aus Junior for 1989 was held in Brisbane from June 24 to July 2nd and was won by Peter Cotton.
Adam Hanieh is not even listed as a player.

From the March/April 1988 issue of CIA Adam played in the 1988 Aus Junior and finished =12th.

Bill Gletsos
03-06-2004, 10:36 PM
The first championship was held in Adelaide in 1949 from jan 4-12 and was originally called the Schoolboys’ Championship of Australia. It was won by William Levick.
No tournament was held in 1950. At the end of 1950 the Schoolboy’s was abolished as a title and replaced by the Australian Junior.
In 1951 it was held in Sydney from Jan 15-26 and was won by John Purdy.
In 1952 it was held in Adelaide in January and was won by Josef Hortovanyi.
In 1953 it was held in Sydney from Dec 29th 1952 to Jan 10th and was won by Malcolm Broun.
In 1954 ii was held in Toowoomba from Dec 28 1953 to Jan 9th and was won by Donald Robson.
In 1955 it was held in Melbourne from Dec 27th 1954 to Jan 8th and was won by Josef Hortovanyi.
In 1956 it was held in Sydney from Jan 3rd to 14th and was won by Alan Irving.
In 1957 it was held in Adelaide starting in early Jan and was won by James Ferguson.
In 1958 it was held in Sydney from Jan 13th to 25th and was won by Daryl Rudd.
In 1959 it was held in Toowoomba from Jan 5th to 17th and was won by Ron Klinger.
In 1960 it was held in Adelaide starting in early Jan and was a 3 way tie between Peter Lay, Richard Gastineau-Hills and William Chia and the play-off was won by Lay.
In 1961 it was held in Melbourne in January and was a tie between Trevor Hay and Peter Lay and Hay won the play-off.
In 1962 it was held in Sydney from Jan 15th to 27th and was won by Neil Alexander.
In 1963 it was held in Brisbane from Jan 15th and was won by Max Fuller.
In 1964 it was held in Adelaide in January and won by William Kerr.

It is clear at this stage from the Dec 1963 issue of Chess World that C.J.S. Purdy considered them the champions of the years listed above.

In 1965 it was held in Melbourne and there was a tie between William Kerr and Ralph Shaw and Kerr on the play-off.
In 1966 it was held in Perth in January and was won by Michael Woodhams.
In 1967 it was held in Sydney in January and was won by Arthur Pope.

ursogr8
04-06-2004, 08:02 AM
The first championship was held in Adelaide in 1949 from jan 4-12 and was originally called the Schoolboys’ Championship of Australia. It was won by William Levick.
No tournament was held in 1950. At the end of 1950 the Schoolboy’s was abolished as a title and replaced by the Australian Junior.
In 1951 it was held in Sydney from Jan 15-26 and was won by John Purdy.
In 1952 it was held in Adelaide in January and was won by Josef Hortovanyi.
In 1953 it was held in Sydney from Dec 29th 1952 to Jan 10th and was won by Malcolm Broun.
In 1954 ii was held in Toowoomba from Dec 28 1953 to Jan 9th and was won by Donald Robson.
In 1955 it was held in Melbourne from Dec 27th 1954 to Jan 8th and was won by Josef Hortovanyi.
In 1956 it was held in Sydney from Jan 3rd to 14th and was won by Alan Irving.
In 1957 it was held in Adelaide starting in early Jan and was won by James Ferguson.
In 1958 it was held in Sydney from Jan 13th to 25th and was won by Daryl Rudd.
In 1959 it was held in Toowoomba from Jan 5th to 17th and was won by Ron Klinger.
In 1960 it was held in Adelaide starting in early Jan and was a 3 way tie between Peter Lay, Richard Gastineau-Hills and William Chia and the play-off was won by Lay.
In 1961 it was held in Melbourne in January and was a tie between Trevor Hay and Peter Lay and Hay won the play-off.
In 1962 it was held in Sydney from Jan 15th to 27th and was won by Neil Alexander.
In 1963 it was held in Brisbane from Jan 15th and was won by Max Fuller.
In 1964 it was held in Adelaide in January and won by William Kerr.

It is clear at this stage from the Dec 1963 issue of Chess World that C.J.S. Purdy considered them the champions of the years listed above.

In 1965 it was held in Melbourne and there was a tie between William Kerr and Ralph Shaw and Kerr on the play-off.
In 1966 it was held in Perth in January and was won by Michael Woodhams.
In 1967 it was held in Sydney in January and was won by Arthur Pope.
Thanks Bill

I had this theory that in the early years some States hosted the title in successive years; and that that led to winners coming from that State; i.e 'home-ground advantage', I guess. You new info. shoots down that theory.

The data on the cup shows
2 1 1 1 4 5 2 2 1 2 1 1 3 in the years 1949-1975 (For example the 4 means SA 4 wins from 1954-1957). Do the mathematicians out there think this is an outlier data string? Do we expect to see winners in proportion to State populations? Are we seeing winners in fact coming from centres of excellence?

starter

Ian Rout
04-06-2004, 09:52 AM
One factor that might have to be taken into account in looking for trends is whether all the contenders were playing. In another topic a while back the question of the top junior having "outgrown" junior championships, especially after having already won one, was discussed. There are very few multiples, but were all the winners 17?

Incidentally what happened to some of the less familiar winners on the trophy???

Alan Shore
04-06-2004, 10:55 AM
By the way, is there a list of Australian Lightning champions anywhere?

Bill Gletsos
04-06-2004, 11:18 AM
One factor that might have to be taken into account in looking for trends is whether all the contenders were playing. In another topic a while back the question of the top junior having "outgrown" junior championships, especially after having already won one, was discussed. There are very few multiples, but were all the winners 17?
Josef Hortovanyi was only 14 or 15 when he won it in 1951.
Some others were also 15 or 16.


Incidentally what happened to some of the less familiar winners on the trophy???
When reading though the Chess World magazines for the years 1949-1967 their was an article in one of them that suggested that some of the juniors found they went from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond when they entered the senior tournament ranks and they therefore just dropped off. Another reason mentioned was that a number of them did quite well academically and thus stopped their involvement in chess during their university years. It would appear a number of them did not return after this.

ursogr8
04-06-2004, 12:18 PM
By the way, is there a list of Australian Lightning champions anywhere?

If you can wait a while I am sure that a Whitehorse Junior Chess member will win the title and the trophy. If you can wait till then I undertake to read the names and post here. :uhoh:

starter

Oepty
04-06-2004, 12:59 PM
Bill. Thankyou for the information. Do you know whether Hanieh's =12th in 1988 won him the U/16 prize or something like that.

As to where winners of the Title are. W Kerr is currently playing board 2 for the Adelaide Red team in the SACA A Grade competition. His first year after a couple of years break.

Also I notice from Bill post a number of Junior Champs were played in the time the Australian Championships would be played now. Does this mean that the two tournament where played concurrently? If so did that ever mean a tope junior played the senior championships instead of the juniors?
Scott

Bill Gletsos
04-06-2004, 01:57 PM
Bill. Thankyou for the information. Do you know whether Hanieh's =12th in 1988 won him the U/16 prize or something like that.

I dont think so but I'll check it.


Also I notice from Bill post a number of Junior Champs were played in the time the Australian Championships would be played now. Does this mean that the two tournament where played concurrently? If so did that ever mean a tope junior played the senior championships instead of the juniors?Scott
In many of those years I'm sure they clashed. However entry to the Aus Champs seems to have been much more restrictive and I suspect the juniors were considered nowhere near strong enough.

ursogr8
04-06-2004, 10:24 PM
1 The spelling is Levick on the cup

2 Jones twice not Jones and Johnson

3 Fardell on the cup

4 John Purdy is definitely 1950 on the cup.........making them 1 year out of sequence in the first column.

5 The winner in 1958 is now a well-known bridge player and write of bridge books.

6 Box Hill will send the cup to a repairer to have the tennis racquet dent beaten out, and the base repaired. Does anyone know the address where we can invoice the blue figurine.
Frankly the cup should be pensioned off and a new trophy started in the year 2000; the nailed on shields at the base are only good for a few more years and look less historical.
PM me if you are interested in going halves with BHCC; and then we will offer to the ACF.

starter

Bill Gletsos
04-06-2004, 11:31 PM
Bill. Thankyou for the information. Do you know whether Hanieh's =12th in 1988 won him the U/16 prize or something like that.

Based on his DOB he would have only been eligible for the U16 prize.
Now although the age title winners are not mentioned a number of players who finished above him were also 15. therefore he could not have been the U16 champ.

However Adam was the current SA junior champion during the 1988 Aus Juniors.

ursogr8
03-07-2004, 02:27 PM
6 Box Hill will send the cup to a repairer to have the tennis racquet dent beaten out, and the base repaired. Does anyone know the address where we can invoice the blue figurine.
Frankly the cup should be pensioned off and a new trophy started in the year 2000; the nailed on shields at the base are only good for a few more years and look less historical.
PM me if you are interested in going halves with BHCC; and then we will offer to the ACF.

starter

Ok. We have gone the repair route with the cup, instead of starting anew. Our local cup-beater says the dent will be easy to remove and re-furbishment is a good option.

When the cup comes back to us, as good as new, it would be nice to get it formally presented to the current Australian Junior champion, Denis Bourmistrov. I wonder if David Smerdon would like to do the presentation? This would be particularly appropriate given David's fine performance in the recent VIC OPEN week-ender at Box Hill.

starter

ursogr8
24-07-2004, 08:53 PM
I notice in reading the beautiful brochure that advertises the 2004 Victorian Championships, that the honour board, of the event, has been photographed and is included in the brochure.
It is very noticeable that F K Esling won in 1891,2,3,4,6,7 and CG Watson in 1898, E B Loughran in 1899 and R L Hodgson in 1901.
Does anyone know why there is no winner listed for 1900?

starter

ursogr8
08-08-2004, 08:15 AM
Ok. We have gone the repair route with the cup, instead of starting anew. Our local cup-beater says the dent will be easy to remove and re-furbishment is a good option.

When the cup comes back to us, as good as new, it would be nice to get it formally presented to the current Australian Junior champion, Denis Bourmistrov. I wonder if David Smerdon would like to do the presentation? This would be particularly appropriate given David's fine performance in the recent VIC OPEN week-ender at Box Hill.

starter

The CUP has come back from the repair shop and the base is now fixed to the trophy so firmly that not even a shock win will shake it loose. :clap:
The dent, by the individual mentioned earlier, still remains in the cup itself. The Mt B. organising Comittee may want to take early delivery of the Cup and get it ready for presentation. Contact me. :cool:

starter

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 12:47 PM
The CUP has come back from the repair shop and the base is now fixed to the trophy so firmly that not even a shock win will shake it loose. :clap:
The dent, by the individual mentioned earlier, still remains in the cup itself. The Mt B. organising Comittee may want to take early delivery of the Cup and get it ready for presentation. Contact me. :cool:

starter
If all the majority of the years are incorrect the ACF may need to replace the whole trophy.

ursogr8
08-08-2004, 03:47 PM
If all the majority of the years are incorrect the ACF may need to replace the whole trophy.

:eek: :eek:

:eh:

We have just spent our money to get the (ACF) trophy repaired, and now you going to do what with the old, Bill?

starter

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 04:07 PM
:eek: :eek:

:eh:

We have just spent our money to get the (ACF) trophy repaired, and now you going to do what with the old, Bill?

starter
Your slipping starter and obviosuly not reading posts directed at you.

In post 87 of the Mount Buller championship thread in reply to one of your posts I stated:


As for the Junior trophy. We would like to arrange for it to most likely be replaced by a new trophy with correct years etc on it. Therefore it would be desirable for the junior trophy to be shipped to Norm Greenwood.

ursogr8
08-08-2004, 04:21 PM
Your slipping starter and obviosuly not reading posts directed at you.

In post 87 of the Mount Buller championship thread in reply to one of your posts I stated:

You can call it slipping Bill,
I think that a trophy post might have also been pasted into the TROPHY thread mate. Not everyone reads all of Mt B.

But thanks for the alert anyway.

starter

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 04:23 PM
You can call it slipping Bill,
I think that a trophy post might have also been pasted into the TROPHY thread mate. Not everyone reads all of Mt B.
That may be true, but my reply was in direct response to one of your posts.
It was therefore reasonable to expect that you would have read it. ;)

pax
18-08-2004, 09:53 AM
Interesting. Anyone know if the R. Klinger in 58 is the famous Bridge player Ron Klinger? Anyone know the last time he played chess?

shaun
18-08-2004, 10:39 AM
Interesting. Anyone know if the R. Klinger in 58 is the famous Bridge player Ron Klinger? Anyone know the last time he played chess?
One and the same. As for when he stopped playing tournament chess, I'm guessing it was soon after, but I have no definite date at hand.

ursogr8
26-08-2004, 12:12 PM
Attributable to Paul B?

A fitting memorial ... Age may not weary our ANZACs, nor the years condemn, but the same can't be said for the Australian Junior trophy, which is going to be replaced. Apparently the sacred cup now boasts a sizeable dent - from a disgruntled second-place-getter, perchance? - and the dates are all over the shop like a madman's fruitcake. Worst of all, they've spelt my name wrong, which I can kinda forgive since it took me till sixth grade to get the hang of it. Anyhow, a shiny new trophy's coming, without the dent and with all the names and dates corrected, in time for the next Aussie Junior at Mt Buller.

jeffrei
26-08-2004, 09:58 PM
Attributable to Paul B?
Apparently the sacred cup now boasts a sizeable dent - from a disgruntled second-place-getter, perchance?

I hasten to add that I think this theory is wrong (though parsimonious!). But of course Paul B was speaking tongue firmly in cheek. Yep, a good way to round out the thread...let's end it on this.

EDIT: I've just realised that I wouldn't mind knowing where the old cup is going to end up. If anyone knows, please PM me.

ursogr8
26-08-2004, 10:32 PM
I hasten to add that I think this theory is wrong (though parsimonious!). But of course Paul B was speaking tongue firmly in cheek. Yep, a good way to round out the thread...let's end it on this.

EDIT: I've just realised that I wouldn't mind knowing where the old cup is going to end up. If anyone knows, please PM me.

jeffrei

:eek: You must be a newcomer here.
No-one can just PM you with the answer; just like that.
Oh no, no, no.
First we have to have a debate on whether we need a poll and an appeal process. And then ....well, ..... let's leave that for later.

Ok. I will start it off.
We have a trophy, battered (as if that matters), up-to-date (except for the early years apparently), and given to the most recent winner. So, technically, I believe the most recent winner can dispose of it as he pleases (Unless of course if it was mentioned to him at a formal time that it was a 'loan').

starter

Alan Shore
26-08-2004, 10:52 PM
You could always auction it off.. or leave it in a nice trophy case.. but I'm sure Denis wouldn't mind taking it, particularly since it just got repaired.

Alan Shore
17-10-2005, 09:13 PM
By the way, is there a list of Australian Lightning champions anywhere?

Yeah.. never got an answer for this one. Anyone have the info?

ursogr8
27-10-2005, 10:04 AM
The problem with painting the outside of a house, in Spring, in Melbourne is that every now and then Zeus sends showers sweeping from across the Bay.

I am reminded of that golfing refrain
" I love a sunburnt country
A land of sweeping rains.."

(I wonder who wrote that?)

Anyhow...it is inside to housekeep the piles of paper lying around waiting for a rainy day. I came across .... >>>

The Australian Chess Magaizine, Volume 31 Number 1 February/March 1996 Price $4.25.

Here are the forensic questions>

Who is on the cover?
Why?
Who won the 1996 Grand Prix?
How much did he collect?
"A meeting of State representatives was held during the Australian Championships which gave the go-ahead to develop '....what...' "?


starter

Rincewind
27-10-2005, 10:18 AM
I am reminded of that golfing refrain
" I love a sunburnt country
A land of sweeping rains.."

I believe it was Dorothy McKellar.

ursogr8
27-10-2005, 12:39 PM
I believe it was Dorothy McKellar.


Probably her version (original) had plains not rains.

Denis_Jessop
27-10-2005, 01:05 PM
Probably her version (original) had plains not rains.


It did and she was Dorothea. Must have been an odd golfer who adapted it - the first bit is OK for distance on the fairway but who wants rain unless he comes to play only the 19th?

DJ

Rincewind
27-10-2005, 01:50 PM
It did and she was Dorothea.

This is true but she was a favourite of my grandmother who was a Dorothy. ;)

I also believe she was a "Mackellar".

ursogr8
27-10-2005, 03:47 PM
This is true but she was a favourite of my grandmother who was a Dorothy. ;)

I also believe she was a "Mackellar".

So far, only the part I put in parenthesis has drawn the comment (and solution).
Am I losing my touch as a starter? :uhoh:
Or are we just waiting for Bill to get home where his supply of ACM are stored? ;)


starter

ps The sun is out and I am back to the painting.

pps No flies here in Melbourne. Just a beautiful day. :)

Bill Gletsos
27-10-2005, 03:59 PM
The problem with painting the outside of a house, in Spring, in Melbourne is that every now and then Zeus sends showers sweeping from across the Bay.

I am reminded of that golfing refrain
" I love a sunburnt country
A land of sweeping rains.."

(I wonder who wrote that?)

Anyhow...it is inside to housekeep the piles of paper lying around waiting for a rainy day. I came across .... >>>

The Australian Chess Magaizine, Volume 31 Number 1 February/March 1996 Price $4.25.

Here are the forensic questions>

Who is on the cover?
Why?
Who won the 1996 Grand Prix?
How much did he collect?
"A meeting of State representatives was held during the Australian Championships which gave the go-ahead to develop '....what...' "?


starterYou mean who one the 1995 GP not 1996.

Cordover, Australian Junior Champion, Johansen, $1500, National Development Plan.

ursogr8
27-10-2005, 06:41 PM
You mean who one the 1995 GP not 1996.

Cordover, Australian Junior Champion, Johansen, $1500, National Development Plan.

And the cigar goes to Bill. :clap:

Do you have the ACMs' stored at work? :eek: :eek:


starter

Bill Gletsos
28-10-2005, 12:54 AM
And the cigar goes to Bill. :clap:

Do you have the ACMs' stored at work? :eek: :eek:No.

Adamski
01-03-2008, 05:12 PM
Since we're on the topic of Australian Junior Champs, I remember being told one year when Jonathan Sarfati was playing.. I think he actually won the tournament yet was rendered inelegible since he was currently living in New Zealand (despite being born in Australia). Instead the title went to someone living in Australia that was born in England! (I don't remember the guy's name).

Am I the only one who thinks Sarfati was hard done by?Absolutely agree. Depending on the year of this Aus Junior Jono may have even had dual nationality at the time, as I think he does now. Anyone recall when this was - maybe Jono?

Adamski
01-03-2008, 06:35 PM
I was always impressed by that Agatha Christie story where the narrator was indeed the villain. (Qn. What was the title?)Just watched an Agatha mystery. so thought I'd respond to this old question. "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd". One of the first Agatha whodunnits I read, back when I was a teen.

As an historian by training it was interesting to discover (by accident - a link at the bottom of a current one) this old thread. Problems do arise with trophies and names often, but it was unusual to see a case with so many inaccuracies. Well done to the detectives, Bill and co.:)

Adamski
01-03-2008, 06:39 PM
jeffrei

:eek: You must be a newcomer here.
No-one can just PM you with the answer; just like that.
Oh no, no, no.
First we have to have a debate on whether we need a poll and an appeal process. And then ....well, ..... let's leave that for later.

Ok. I will start it off.
We have a trophy, battered (as if that matters), up-to-date (except for the early years apparently), and given to the most recent winner. So, technically, I believe the most recent winner can dispose of it as he pleases (Unless of course if it was mentioned to him at a formal time that it was a 'loan').

starter
I hope that did not happen. It's a valuable artifact! Hopefully it's still around...

Denis_Jessop
01-03-2008, 08:20 PM
I hope that did not happen. It's a valuable artifact! Hopefully it's still around...

If you are speaking of the Cup for the Australian Junior Champion, as I assume you are, the answer is that it was not repaired and it still exists. I had a close look at it at the Australian Junior Championships in Canberra in January 2007. I found that it had a lid that was not the right one as it didn't fit but the absence of a lid is not a serious worry. The significance of the dent is rather overrated. What it really needed was a good polish as silver plated trophies do. After that, it looked quite presentable. It is such an historic trophy that it would be very sad to discard it and there is no present proposal to do so. I also believe that, were it replaced, the ACF should continue to retain it permanently because of its historical value.

DJ

Adamski
01-03-2008, 08:24 PM
Thanks for the update, Denis. That is good news. I agree with you.

Basil
01-03-2008, 08:25 PM
I'd like to suggest a thread move to 'Australian Chess History'. [done-mod]

Bill Gletsos
06-05-2020, 03:13 PM
If you are speaking of the Cup for the Australian Junior Champion, as I assume you are, the answer is that it was not repaired and it still exists. I had a close look at it at the Australian Junior Championships in Canberra in January 2007. I found that it had a lid that was not the right one as it didn't fit but the absence of a lid is not a serious worry. The significance of the dent is rather overrated. What it really needed was a good polish as silver plated trophies do. After that, it looked quite presentable. It is such an historic trophy that it would be very sad to discard it and there is no present proposal to do so. I also believe that, were it replaced, the ACF should continue to retain it permanently because of its historical value.

DJThis trophy is the Harold Mercer Cup. It was first presented in 1949 and presented annually to the Australian Junior Champion.
Does anyone know what happened to this trophy?