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Garvinator
14-07-2007, 09:04 PM
Hello everyone,

Calling for participants for tournament no 5.

Already had one expression of interest:

alipasha

Basil
14-07-2007, 09:14 PM
Is this regular correspondence or gay chess?

{'Gay' as in happy and and carefree, of course}

Garvinator
14-07-2007, 09:21 PM
Is this regular correspondence?
Yes. Not freestyle

Basil
14-07-2007, 09:26 PM
Mark me down, Smithers!

Garvinator
14-07-2007, 09:27 PM
Two expressions of interest:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan

Axiom
14-07-2007, 10:55 PM
Again i declare myself to the battle's edge.

Garvinator
14-07-2007, 11:04 PM
Three expressions of interest:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan
Axiom

Garvinator
16-07-2007, 02:52 PM
Continuing the call for players.

Three players so far:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan
Axiom

Glenno
16-07-2007, 05:30 PM
Me, please.

Garvinator
16-07-2007, 06:01 PM
Continuing the call for players.

Four players so far:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan
Axiom
Glenno

Shark93
16-07-2007, 07:03 PM
I'll play, but I've never played correspondance chess before so I was wondering how long it'd usually take and how many matches we play in the tournament.

Axiom
16-07-2007, 08:24 PM
I'll play, but I've never played correspondance chess before so I was wondering how long it'd usually take and how many matches we play in the tournament.
i)not too long at a leisurely pace of your choosing, within reason of a move per 3days or so , move/wk bare minimum
ii)dependent on entries ,probably double round robin

Garvinator
16-07-2007, 09:11 PM
I'll play, but I've never played correspondance chess before so I was wondering how long it'd usually take and how many matches we play in the tournament.
Hello Ziah,

Please contact me at garvingray@optusnet.com.au so I can enter you in the tournament.

The reason I ask for an email from you is that you don't have private message abilities on here at the moment. You need to make 3 posts outside of the correspondence chess forums to get pm abilities.

Garvinator
17-07-2007, 06:06 PM
Still searching for more entrants.

Four players so far:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan
Axiom
Glenno

CameronD
17-07-2007, 11:15 PM
Hi

Please enter me down for your tournament Garvin.

ps- could garvin reinforce the rules for this tournament to avoid problems with misunderstandings. eg - no computers bar databases etc.

Garvinator
18-07-2007, 06:44 PM
Five players so far:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan
Axiom
Glenno
Cameron D

I am yet to receive any contact at all from Ziah, so at this moment, Ziah is not in the tournament.

Ziah, if you wish to play in the tournament, I need you to contact me at garvingray@optusnet.com.au. This is to ensure that you are committed to finishing the tournament and so that I am aware of who you are, just in case.

Garvinator
18-07-2007, 06:47 PM
ps- could garvin reinforce the rules for this tournament to avoid problems with misunderstandings. eg - no computers bar databases etc.I think the only way to word it correctly is: no engine generated moves are allowed.

Databases and other freely available information ie other players games are allowed to be used.

The only area I am not sure about is use of endgame tablebases. There are freely available websites that have endgame tablebase positions, so the information is potentially equal for everyone. Thoughts?

Aaron Guthrie
18-07-2007, 06:50 PM
The only area I am not sure about is use of endgame tablebases. There are freely available websites that have endgame tablebase positions, so the information is potentially equal for everyone. Thoughts?Are endgame books (the ones you can hold in your hand) allowed?

Garvinator
18-07-2007, 06:52 PM
Reminder to all participants,

Time control is one move per seven days in each individual game. The seven days begins once your opponent has replied to your move with their move. The time control is EXACTLY seven days.

If a player needs a time extension, they need to pm/email me before they time out and state why they can't make the time control.

If the tournament receives less than nine entries, it will be double round robin. If the tournament receives nine or more entries, it will be single round robin.
In the event of a single round robin, players will be 'seeded' in the round robin draw based on their order of entry.

Garvinator
18-07-2007, 06:53 PM
Are endgame books (the ones you can hold in your hand) allowed?
This is the sort of stuff that I am not sure about and hence why I am posing the questions :uhoh:

Aaron Guthrie
18-07-2007, 06:55 PM
This is the sort of stuff that I am not sure about and hence why I am posing the questions :uhoh:OK, well if endgame books are allowed I would suggest tablebases should be too. Especially if modern endgame books are allowed.

What about opening books, are they allowed?

Garvinator
18-07-2007, 06:56 PM
OK, well if endgame books are allowed I would suggest tablebases should be too. Especially if modern endgame books are allowed.

What about opening books, are they allowed?
Opening books are allowed. I believe that to be quite common. Of course if the participants want to not have any of it allowed, then so be it. Kinda difficult to prove though :hmm:

Aaron Guthrie
18-07-2007, 07:11 PM
Opening books are allowed. I believe that to be quite common. Of course if the participants want to not have any of it allowed, then so be it. Kinda difficult to prove though :hmm:To me it seems that if opening books are allowed, and looking at other games is allowed, there is no reason to make the cut at endgame books, or at endgame tablebases.

As regards tablebases I think it is worth noting that for most (and probably all in this tourney) people they will be restricted to 5 and 6 man tablebases. And these are available to examine online (i.e. you don't need to download them). So it is not like they will take over the endgame play. The only case that seems dodgey to me is the specialist endgame tablebase. As I understand it you can make endgame tablebases that have restrictions e.g. the pawn on c4 stays on c4.

Incidentally I rate myself a less than 5% chance of playing this tournament, so really I am just discussing the rules for interest's sake.

Garvinator
18-07-2007, 07:35 PM
Incidentally I rate myself a less than 5% chance of playing this tournament, so really I am just discussing the rules for interest's sake.How can I increase the percentage? And no, payment is not an option. Balloons might be a goer though ;)

Aaron Guthrie
18-07-2007, 07:44 PM
How can I increase the percentage? And no, payment is not an option. Balloons might be a goer though ;)Not much to do really, I always take a long time to decide and then decide at the last minute with a "yeah I feel like it" or "nah I don't".

Basil
18-07-2007, 07:56 PM
The player plus a board. The end. Anything else and I'm out! (with bat and ball).

Axiom
18-07-2007, 08:10 PM
why not simply , otb tournament conditions?

CameronD
18-07-2007, 11:37 PM
I'm happy either way (otb or correspondence rules). I was going to use this tournament to work/learn some new opennings with a large pile of opening and middlegame books at my side on those openinngs.

ps - I'm sure garvin would say I need some new openings then the boring, dull, passive rubbish I currently play.

Jesse Jager
19-07-2007, 09:22 AM
I would prefer otb conditions

Garvinator
19-07-2007, 12:04 PM
So now three votes for otb conditions. I personally dont mind if players agree to opening book use though.

Garvinator
20-07-2007, 06:06 PM
I will start the tournament on Monday. So if there is anyone else wanting to play, you will have to indicate your participation before then.


Five players so far:

alipasha
Gunner Duggan
Axiom
Glenno
Cameron D

Garvinator
22-07-2007, 10:05 PM
Last chance to enter. Will be starting tournament tomorrow.

Mangafranga, are you playing?

Aaron Guthrie
22-07-2007, 10:28 PM
Mangafranga, are you playing?Nope. Goodluck with the tournament ggrayggray, and everyone that is playing.

Garvinator
23-07-2007, 11:42 AM
All 20 games have now been posted. Enjoy the games everyone.

CameronD
23-07-2007, 07:05 PM
Hi Garvin

Just want to confirm that strict OTB conditions are in use or opening book use

Garvinator
23-07-2007, 08:55 PM
Hi Garvin

Just want to confirm that strict OTB conditions are in use or opening book use
Before the tournament started I think it was agreed that it should be OTB conditions. No tournament participant made an argument for anything else.

The problem I have with OTB conditions in an online tournament is enforcability. If there is a claim that someone is breaking the rules on this matter, how do I prove it either way? I don't think I can, unless the breach is blatant.

That being said, no tournament participant made an argument for anything other than otb conditions, so that is how it is.

CameronD
23-07-2007, 09:39 PM
Thanks, just wanted to know formally. Not playing for cattle stations and no rating points to lose, so dont care if other people cheat or if I lose, more interested in learning something from them.

CameronD
23-07-2007, 11:43 PM
Hi

Is there a way to save threads to save searching for them each time.

Basil
24-07-2007, 01:08 AM
Cameron

You could bookmark them if you wish, but searching for them is hardly necessary. They are all located in the Chesschat Tournament #5 subdirectory.

EGOR
01-08-2007, 12:33 PM
I don't suppose there is any chance of a late entry into this tournament?

Basil
01-08-2007, 12:34 PM
Of course!

CameronD
01-08-2007, 12:58 PM
I would have no problems... but its not my decision... its garvin... there is a late fee though ;)

Garvinator
01-08-2007, 01:07 PM
Hello Egor,

Of course there is a chance. There is always a chance ;).

I will give it till this time tomorrow. If no objections have been made to another entry in to the competition, I will add you.

Therefore, if someone does have an objection, feel free to pm me or email me at garvingray@optusnet.com.au


Cheers,

Garvin

EGOR
01-08-2007, 08:06 PM
Cool!:D

Garvinator
02-08-2007, 01:22 PM
No objections received in the 24 hours I gave for objections, so Egor is now admitted to the tournament.

I will now set up his games, then everyone can get started with Egor's games.

Egor, please make yourself familiar with the rules of the tournament by reading this thread.

EGOR
02-08-2007, 07:46 PM
I'm very thankful that you people have let me in, concidering how far into the tournament it is.:)

Axiom
02-08-2007, 08:42 PM
I'm very thankful that you people have let me in, concidering how far into the tournament it is.:)you're welcome

Garvinator
03-08-2007, 01:33 PM
Reminder to all participants that when a game is completed to report the result here.

CameronD
03-08-2007, 01:36 PM
CameronD 1-0 Gunner Duggan

Axiom
04-08-2007, 07:31 PM
CameronD - Axiom 0 - 1

Basil
07-08-2007, 12:06 PM
Game 7
Alipasha 1-0 Howard Duggan

Game 8
Howard Duggan 0-1 Alipasha

Axiom
07-08-2007, 12:07 PM
alipasha 1/2 - 1/2 Axiom
Axiom 0 - 1 alipasha

Axiom
07-08-2007, 02:26 PM
Axiom 1-0 CameronD

Basil
08-08-2007, 12:44 AM
Game 1
Howard Duggan 1-0 Cameron D

EGOR
08-08-2007, 10:40 AM
Are provisional moves allowed?

Basil
08-08-2007, 10:43 AM
I would have thought 'yes' in line with general correspondence practice. But be warned! They can be disasterous if offered after 'any'.

EGOR
08-08-2007, 11:16 AM
I would have thought 'yes' in line with general correspondence practice. But be warned! They can be disasterous if offered after 'any'.
Interesting you should say that, because it was on your insistence that OTB standards be applied to this tournament (Quote, The player plus a board. The end. Anything else and I'm out! (with bat and ball).).

Basil
08-08-2007, 11:23 AM
Interesting you should say that...
Most of what I say is interesting ;)

OTB standards with respect to 'assistance' was the context.

EGOR
08-08-2007, 11:33 AM
OTB standards with respect to 'assistance' was the context.
I can see how you were referring to only aspect of the tournament conditions. However, what followed on the thread was a general vote for and declaration of OTB conditions being applied to the tournament. It is likely that no one thought through the full implications of this, but it stands that this tournament is meant to be played under OTB conditions. This would imply that provisional moves are not allowed.
I hope all this does not lead you to regret letting me in the tournament.:whistle:

Basil
08-08-2007, 11:42 AM
I can see how you were referring to only aspect of the tournament conditions.
Giddyup


However, what followed on the thread was a general vote for and declaration of OTB conditions being applied to the tournament.
:eek: Like no talking and no mobile phones?



This would imply that provisional moves are not allowed.
I hope all this does not lead you to regret letting me in the tournament.:whistle:
I doubt it. I'm happy with whatever you and Garvin hatch.

EGOR
08-08-2007, 11:50 AM
Like no talking and no mobile phones?
You can bet that I'll claim a win by forfeit if I hear you mobile go off while we're playing.:owned:



I doubt it. I'm happy with whatever you and Garvin hatch.
I'm not trying to hatch anything, I just don't like provisional moves But, I'll put up with them if I have to.:wall:

CameronD
08-08-2007, 11:53 AM
I've taken it to mean no databases, no opening books, no computer assistence, but other correspondence rules applies. Like I've been moving pieces around on a board (just ask Axiom!!). If this is not allowed, then Garvin will have to forfeit all of my games.

EGOR
08-08-2007, 11:59 AM
I've taken it to mean no databases, no opening books, no computer assistence, but other correspondence rules applies.
But are provisional moves allowed in a correspondence tournament?

Like I've been moving pieces around on a board (just ask Axiom!!). If this is not allowed, then Garvin will have to forfeit all of my games.
It's a hard way to lose!:whistle:

Garvinator
08-08-2007, 01:37 PM
Now only if I could predict lotto numbers with this much certainty. By the way, previously in this thread I commented:


Before the tournament started I think it was agreed that it should be OTB conditions. No tournament participant made an argument for anything else.

The problem I have with OTB conditions in an online tournament is enforcability. If there is a claim that someone is breaking the rules on this matter, how do I prove it either way? I don't think I can, unless the breach is blatant.

That being said, no tournament participant made an argument for anything other than otb conditions, so that is how it is.

So taking these rules as they are written, Egor you are warned for talking to your opponent. CameronD and Axiom, you are both forfeited from all games for analysing on another board while playing your tournament games. (that is if I enforce the strict otb conditions, which is what we are trying to work out here now that the devil is being shown in the detail.)

I have even seen other players in the tournament work out problems with their opponent during the tournament game, instead of going through the arbiter, which is what is supposed to happen in otb tournament conditions.

So, to sum up, at least four, if not all five players have been in breach of the agreed rule of otb conditions.

Does that mean I should just forfeit all of you just to save time and effort :whistle:

Garvinator
08-08-2007, 01:43 PM
A term first- Egor, the term is conditional moves, not provisional. Meaning- I will move here if you move there first. If you dont move there first, I can move anywhere I like that is legal.

Now that the agreement for otb conditions has been proven to be broken by all tournament participants, I propose that the rule for otb conditions be abolished and the normal standards of correspondence play be used.

Which in short are-

1) Opening books, databases can be used
2) Players can move pieces etc on another board
3) Conditional moves can be offered, but if one or more conditional moves are offered, they are binding
4) Each player is responsible for ensuring that they tender the move they want to play. If they tender a move that they didnt want to play, but it is a legal move, they cant take it back and are stuck with the consequences. If the incorrectly tendered move turns out to be a bad one, they are stuck with it and it cant be taken back.
5) Appeals and queries go through the arbiter, not discussed between the players.
6) Engine use to generate moves is not allowed and will result in immediate forfeiture from the tournament. Of course I have to prove this.
7) The only question is about endgame tablebase use from freely available sites????

CameronD
08-08-2007, 01:44 PM
Move to forfeit everyone and start tournament 6

Axiom
08-08-2007, 01:46 PM
as far as i can see everyone is playing within the spirit of the otb rules .
moving bits around,or negotiating conditional moves, is trivial when looking at the thrust of the rules ie.no external assistance.

Garvinator
08-08-2007, 01:47 PM
Move to forfeit everyone and start tournament 6
A bit quick, I have put up a new set of rules that are more in line with general correspondence standards.

CameronD
08-08-2007, 01:52 PM
Against the new rules of -

1 - Too late to introduce half - way through the game - make prople think for themselves
5 - Only if agreement is not reached
7 - No- make people think

EGOR
08-08-2007, 01:54 PM
I seem to have coursed a bit of trouble.:uhoh:
In hind site it's clear that I should not have made a big deal over provisional, oops:doh:, conditional moves.
It's just that I don't like them, which is just my problem really.
Everyone, please just go back to enjoying your games, and beating me and, we'll try to forget all this silliness on my part.:oops:

Axiom
08-08-2007, 01:56 PM
I seem to have coursed a bit of trouble.:uhoh:
In hind site it's clear that I should not have made a big deal over provisional, oops:doh:, conditional moves.
It's just that I don't like them, which is just my problem really.
Everyone, please just go back to enjoying your games, and beating me and, we'll try to forget all this silliness on my part.:oops:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Basil
08-08-2007, 02:13 PM
Good work, EGOR. Cameron, you're bordering on being pointy!

EGOR
08-08-2007, 02:17 PM
Good work, EGOR. Cameron, you're bordering on being pointy!
Give him a break, I started it.

Basil
08-08-2007, 02:19 PM
He's bordering on being pointy!

EGOR
08-08-2007, 02:28 PM
He's bordering on being pointy!
...and you're not?!

CameronD
08-08-2007, 02:32 PM
Dont worry Egor, I dont evan know what hes talking about with this jargon I dont understand.

EGOR
08-08-2007, 02:39 PM
Dont worry Egor, I dont evan know what hes talking about with this jargon I dont understand.
Makes two of us!

EGOR
08-08-2007, 04:41 PM
Axiom v EGOR 1-0

Jesse Jager
12-08-2007, 08:54 AM
Cameron vs Alipasha
0-1

Endgame table-bases should not be allowed since with the inclusion of opening books participants will be essentially using a computer for the majority of games.

EGOR
13-08-2007, 10:23 AM
alipasha v EGOR 1-0

EGOR
14-08-2007, 12:21 PM
I don't think Axiom's one week ban should count against him for his games.

Garvinator
14-08-2007, 03:56 PM
I don't think Axiom's one week ban should count against him for his games.
Agreed. Due to Axiom's self inflicted holiday, all his games are postponed by one week.

Kevin Bonham
14-08-2007, 10:46 PM
Excellent decision.

Basil
14-08-2007, 11:49 PM
ummm ... would you believe 2 weeks?

EGOR
15-08-2007, 08:55 PM
ummm ... would you believe 2 weeks?
Yes.

Kevin Bonham
15-08-2007, 08:56 PM
Let's just hope he doesn't sign up still more hydras and force us to make it longer. :evil:

EGOR
15-08-2007, 09:02 PM
Considering he didn't deserve the ban in the first place.:whistle:

Kevin Bonham
15-08-2007, 09:16 PM
Considering he didn't deserve the ban in the first place.:whistle:

If you want to discuss that I suggest do so in feedback.

EGOR
15-08-2007, 09:22 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Garvinator
15-08-2007, 09:28 PM
so if I have read the last few posts correctly, Axiom has been benched for two weeks, is that correct?

EGOR
15-08-2007, 09:31 PM
so if I have read the last few posts correctly, Axiom has been benched for two weeks, is that correct?
Yes.

Garvinator
16-08-2007, 09:41 AM
In Axiom's currently postponed games, each person still must make their move inside of the seven days.

Also a note to each participant. If Axiom receives even one more day of suspension, he will be withdrawn from the competition and we will continue with 5 players.

If the worst happens and Axiom gets withdrawn, then of course if players wish, they can continue their games with Axiom as social games, but they will NOT be included in the overall standings/cross table.

Basil
16-08-2007, 10:37 AM
Garvin. Did you consider asking the players how they wished Axiom's scores and games to be treated?

Kevin Bonham
18-08-2007, 12:20 AM
Garvin's approach seems fine to me. Garvin's time as DOP should also be considered in all this - it wouldn't be fair on him if games were dragged out forever waiting for players to return from very lengthy suspensions.

Desmond
18-08-2007, 08:29 AM
Just as a suggestion, Ax could email his moves to someone, say Garvin.

Garvinator
18-08-2007, 11:40 AM
Just as a suggestion, Ax could email his moves to someone, say Garvin.
But the site rules are that no poster can post on behalf of a poster who has been suspended.

Kevin Bonham
18-08-2007, 12:45 PM
But the site rules are that no poster can post on behalf of a poster who has been suspended.

I'd be happy to allow an exemption to that in this case as it is not the sort of case we had in mind when banning posting on behalf of banned posters. The aim of the posting-on-behalf rule was to stop unbanned posters acting as proxies for banned posters in debate and thus helping them to continue to agitate while banned.

I'd even volunteer to be Ax's carrier-pigeon but there is a hitch - Ax's account has emails switched off and the only email address I have for Ax is via one of his hydras - and in emails I have exchanged with that hydra he persistently (and completely unconvincingly) fails to accept that he is Axiom.

So if Ax wants us to consider allowing someone else to transmit his moves for him during his suspension he will need to email one of us and make that request.

Garvinator
18-08-2007, 08:57 PM
I see that the worst has happened and Axiom has had his suspension increased again, now making three weeks.

I said back in post 92 of this thread:


Also a note to each participant. If Axiom receives even one more day of suspension, he will be withdrawn from the competition and we will continue with 5 players.

Therefore, the tournament will now continue with 5 players and Axiom is withdrawn.

EGOR
21-08-2007, 07:57 AM
Gunner V EGOR 1-0

It's a shame about Axiom.:(

Jesse Jager
22-08-2007, 07:09 PM
Alipasha v Cameron
1-0

EGOR
25-08-2007, 10:41 PM
EGOR v Alipasha 0-1

EGOR
28-08-2007, 03:35 PM
EGOR v CameronD 0-1
CameronD v EGOR 1-0

EGOR
02-09-2007, 12:05 AM
I'm out of town and won't be able to make any moves for a week, sorry.

Garvinator
02-09-2007, 01:15 AM
I'm out of town and won't be able to make any moves for a week, sorry.
Please specify which dates you want your 'holiday' to apply for.

EGOR
08-09-2007, 06:25 PM
Please specify which dates you want your 'holiday' to apply for.
Sorry, I'm back now. I'll know better next time.

EGOR
14-09-2007, 10:20 AM
EGOR V Glenno 0-1

EGOR
19-09-2007, 09:56 PM
EGOR v Gunner 0-1

CameronD
01-10-2007, 07:22 PM
Hi

I formally request a 1 week rest from moves from the 2nd - 9th of October as I'll be on holidays.


Thanks

Garvinator
04-10-2007, 04:33 PM
I formally request a 1 week rest from moves from the 2nd - 9th of October as I'll be on holidays.
Granted

EGOR
05-10-2007, 08:37 AM
EGOR v Axiom 0-1

Garvinator
05-10-2007, 09:57 AM
EGOR v Axiom 0-1
As said previously, Axiom's games that were not concluded by the time of his 3 week suspension were ruled as forfeit wins to the opponent. The cross table has been reflecting this for a number of weeks now.

EGOR
13-10-2007, 06:37 PM
EGOR v Glenno 0-1