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Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 07:21 AM
On this report (http://wwcc2004.fide.com/main.asp?id=476) Jana Jackova is wearing what looks to me like a rock band t-shirt of some kind. If so, anyone recognise it and able to name the band? Not a lot to go on but someone might know it.

From the article:

Being very upset after having lost to the great Maia Chiburdanidze, Marie Sebag of France sobbed uncontrollably.

Boohoo. What do you think, is this typical of a woman or of just a player who takes what they do too seriously? I know some past juniors who used to shed quite a few tears at the board..

Kevin Bonham
28-05-2004, 03:16 PM
What do you think, is this typical of a woman or of just a player who takes what they do too seriously? I know some past juniors who used to shed quite a few tears at the board..

I've seen a strong player around my age cry after losing a game, but it was really because of off-board stresses that were released by the defeat. I wouldn't jump to conclusions that someone crying after losing a game was crying just because they lost.

Rincewind
28-05-2004, 03:47 PM
Boohoo. What do you think, is this typical of a woman or of just a player who takes what they do too seriously? I know some past juniors who used to shed quite a few tears at the board..

Well if you shouldn't take the World Champs seriously, what the hell should you? Players to get to that level have to take it seriously, it is if not all, at least a large chunk of their life. Not everyone is happy to sit on FICS and play bug their whole life.

shaun
28-05-2004, 04:35 PM
From the article:


Boohoo. What do you think, is this typical of a woman or of just a player who takes what they do too seriously? I know some past juniors who used to shed quite a few tears at the board..

At the 2002 Olympiad Polish GM Mikhal Krasenkow lost in very short order to Nikolic. He stood up from the board, walked a few paces along the aisle and began crying his eyes out.
We all have ways of dealing with our success and failure, both men and women.

Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 05:22 PM
I've seen a strong player around my age cry after losing a game, but it was really because of off-board stresses that were released by the defeat. I wouldn't jump to conclusions that someone crying after losing a game was crying just because they lost.

That's fair enough Kevin if that's the case, the effect was not wholly due to the cause one may have assumed it to be. Crying solely because of the lost game however, is equivalent of crying over spilt milk.

Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 05:27 PM
Well if you shouldn't take the World Champs seriously, what the hell should you? Players to get to that level have to take it seriously, it is if not all, at least a large chunk of their life. Not everyone is happy to sit on FICS and play bug their whole life.

People can still take things seriously without losing control over their emotions.

Regarding your last sentence, what are you trying to imply? If you have an issue come out and say it.. I enjoy occasionally playing on FICS but it's hardly my life, there are more constructive things to do. Personally I believe devoting one's life to a game is time better spent elsewhere.

Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 05:29 PM
At the 2002 Olympiad Polish GM Mikhal Krasenkow lost in very short order to Nikolic. He stood up from the board, walked a few paces along the aisle and began crying his eyes out.
We all have ways of dealing with our success and failure, both men and women.

Shaun, you are correct, I was perhaps too harsh in criticising but I did say what I said to generate response and see what you all thought. Indeed it may be better to deal openly with issues than leave them repressed.. get angry then get over it ;)

Rincewind
28-05-2004, 05:29 PM
That's fair enough Kevin if that's the case, the effect was not wholly due to the cause one may have assumed it to be. Crying solely because of the lost game however, is equivalent of crying over spilt milk.

And you'd know from your personal experience , playing in World Champs and the like?

Garvinator
28-05-2004, 05:31 PM
And you'd know from your personal experience , playing in World Champs and the like?
you could always ask jose :eek: :whistle:

Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 05:33 PM
And you'd know from your personal experience , playing in World Champs and the like?

And you would also Barry? You self-righteous pr**k. :hand:

Rincewind
28-05-2004, 05:34 PM
People can still take things seriously without losing control over their emotions.

Regarding your last sentence, what are you trying to imply? If you have an issue come out and say it.. I enjoy occasionally playing on FICS but it's hardly my life, there are more constructive things to do. Personally I believe devoting one's life to a game is time better spent elsewhere.

What I have an issue with is you assuming your list of priorites, which might be appropriate for an chess amateur, is also appropriate to the elite players playing in the quite possibly the most important tournament of their careers to date and perhaps for ever.

I also take issue with your WASP view that the expression of emotion in public is somehow unseemly.

On the whole, don't assume one world view fits all.

Garvinator
28-05-2004, 05:35 PM
and i suggest starting a new thread for this.

Rincewind
28-05-2004, 05:36 PM
And you would also Barry? You self-righteous pr**k. :hand:

Actually I was just affronted by your self-righteousness, and was defending those who don't post on this BB.

Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 05:44 PM
What I have an issue with is you assuming your list of priorites, which might be appropriate for an chess amateur, is also appropriate to the elite players playing in the quite possibly the most important tournament of their careers to date and perhaps for ever.

Your point being? I'd be embarassed to have an opponent cry after losing. It doesn't show very strong character and can be seen even as being a bad sport and not being gracious in defeat. You can read my replies to Kevin and Shaun when I think such behaviour may be acceptable.


I also take issue with your WASP view that the expression of emotion in public is somehow unseemly.

On the whole, don't assume one world view fits all.

Not always unseemly but uncalled for and unsportsmanlike given the circumstances. Are you a cry-baby in public Barry? or should I ask, are you a man or a mouse?



Actually I was just affronted by your self-righteousness, and was defending those who don't post on this BB.

I'm expressing my opinion.. that's what a BB is for. You're also welcome to yours..

Alan Shore
28-05-2004, 05:46 PM
and i suggest starting a new thread for this.

Not everything has to be 'by the book'. Kevin Bonham already commented how some threads simply diverge into different topics.

P.S. Are you playing Surfers tomorrow?

Rincewind
28-05-2004, 06:47 PM
Your point being? I'd be embarassed to have an opponent cry after losing. It doesn't show very strong character and can be seen even as being a bad sport and not being gracious in defeat. You can read my replies to Kevin and Shaun when I think such behaviour may be acceptable.

More self-righteous nonsense from our resident "Balmain-boys don't cry" testosterone fuelled, macho red-neck?


Not always unseemly but uncalled for and unsportsmanlike given the circumstances. Are you a cry-baby in public Barry? or should I ask, are you a man or a mouse?

As I pointed out a chess hack from a muddy-backwater wouldn't know squat about what these players are going through and therefore your opinion about what is appropriate is worse than ill-informed.


I'm expressing my opinion.. that's what a BB is for. You're also welcome to yours..

Thanks, I think you will find ample quantities of it above.

Kevin Bonham
28-05-2004, 07:37 PM
I can think of plenty of worse things an opponent could do after a game than cry. Like, withdraw from the tournament without telling the arbiters. Like getting up on a chair and yelling "why am I being bunnyswindled" across the room while there were still tournament games in progress (yep, I've seen (and heard) this one). Like smashing pieces off the board and hitting innocent bystanders with them. And so on.

I can only recall one of my opponents crying - a certain supposedly very strong c.15 yo female junior of the time (who I always thought was overrated as hell - not in rating terms but in terms of the praise people used to heap on her and her future, though she did later win an Aus Girls title). It was only my second rated tournament, and I had played well above my 1000-ish rabbithood of the time to keep a level and at times better position through the game. After she declined a draw offer (which was my third, no one had told me about draw etiquette), she made mistakes and strayed into a lost position, then I refused her counter-offer as I now knew I was winning. With six mins left on her clock in a lost position she went outside and I had to hang around for six minutes . I'd assumed it was just spite but apparently as she realised she was going to lose she'd got more and more upset. Fair enough but she could have resigned first. :eek:

I feel uncomfortable and sad when I see an adult crying at a tournament (though I don't think any the worst of them for it), it's an incongruous thing to see and I always wonder: is it just chess, is it something else?

I think the most miserable expression I've ever seen on a human face was Darryl's after losing to Gluzman in the 2002-3 Aus Champs. He wasn't crying but he just looked so awfully wretched.

skip to my lou
28-05-2004, 08:04 PM
Someone from Rooty Hill chess club rated around 1700 was about to cry while losing to me (around 1100 at the time), instead, he just sobbed and gave all his pieces away.

I think main ones to cry are juniors, but some adults cry inside, but they do some very stupid things so it shows anyway.

arosar
28-05-2004, 08:38 PM
That Jana Jackova t-shirt looks like Courtney Love.

AR

BrainsUK
28-05-2004, 09:39 PM
Are there any MODs on these conferences?

Rincewind
28-05-2004, 11:56 PM
Are there any MODs on these conferences?

No, but we get a few GOTHs dropping in from time to time. ;)

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2004, 12:14 AM
That Jana Jackova t-shirt looks like Courtney Love.

AR

I thought the letters visible were probably "love" as well.

PHAT
29-05-2004, 12:15 AM
Crying is not on. I am with Bruce on this. Crying is plain rude at the end of a game. Unless the person is clinically depressed, then OTB they should lose with dignity - or win with humility. Do your snivelling in private and do your back-flips in your mind.

Rincewind
29-05-2004, 01:07 AM
Crying is not on. I am with Bruce on this. Crying is plain rude at the end of a game. Unless the person is clinically depressed, then OTB they should lose with dignity - or win with humility. Do your snivelling in private and do your back-flips in your mind.

Perhaps if you had spent your whole life devoted to nothing but being the best you could be in chess; were playing in the most important tournament of your life; and lost a game due to your own shortcomings (not outplayed by a better player). Also if you came from a culture which didn't view public expression of emotion only slightly above venerial disease, then maybe you'd might cry too.

I think it is too easy to measure these players, many of whom are still socially immature, by the same yardstick as you or I might use for the weekly comp game at the club. However the two situations are so completely different as to be incomparable.

It's easy to sit back and pass judgement on people. But when there is nothing in your (chess) experience to relate their feeling of disappointment with themselves, it pointless and slightly offensive to criticise their behaviour.

Not that I condone their behaviour. I simply refuse to judge it and take issue with those who think they have an idea what it going on, when they clearly don't either.

Remember, don't criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, you're a mile away, and have their shoes. ;)

PHAT
29-05-2004, 11:54 AM
Perhaps if you had spent your whole life devoted to nothing but being the best you could be in chess; were playing in the most important tournament of your life; and lost a game due to your own shortcomings (not outplayed by a better player).

All of us have been there - not with chess, but with job promotion or love or sport or endeavour. Same thing applies, don't cry or laugh in the other person's face. It is poor form.


Also if you came from a culture which didn't view public expression of emotion only slightly above venerial disease, then maybe you'd might cry too.

Ah, but I do come from that culture, so I don't feel very nice if/when an opponent bubbers or laughs. It is disrespectful in my culture.


I think it is too easy to measure these players, many of whom are still socially immature, by the same yardstick as you or I might use for the weekly comp game at the club. However the two situations are so completely different as to be incomparable.

You said it, "socially immature". We don't accept an adult (over 12 y.o.) lieing on their back in the super market isle screaming. Why should we accept some pima donna chess player carrying on like a child? Answer: We should not.



It's easy to sit back and pass judgement on people. But when there is nothing in your (chess) experience to relate their feeling of disappointment with themselves, it pointless and slightly offensive to criticise their behaviour. OK, be slightly offended.

What if I was to reinterpret the sook's behaviour as being symptomatic of their self imposed lack of life experience. Then, could I blast them with both barrels for being a one dimentional fool? Answer: Yes. Therefore, I stand by my original statement. They should "lose with diginty and win with humility."


Not that I condone their behaviour. I simply refuse to judge it and take issue with those who think they have an idea what it going on, when they clearly don't either.

And I take issue with those who:
1. Think wrong to judge.
2. Especially wrong for us (me) to judge because I don't have an idea of what is going on.

I know enough to know what is going on. I know it from my life experiences and general reading.

[qoute]Remember, don't criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, you're a mile away, and have their shoes. ;)

[/QUOTE]

I don't where a shoe if its owner has schit in it and tells me it is their cultural predisposition to do so.

jenni
29-05-2004, 12:04 PM
I have seen many juniors cry after losing - both here and overseas.

After Gareth won his Under 10 and Under 12 titles, both his opponents in the last round became totally hysterical. One cried for so long that his coach had to go in and resign the game on his behalf.

I think for litlle kids the pressure can be incredible. Many sports psychologists recommend that children do not play "competitively" until they are about 11 and can handle that sort of pressure better. That is why in things like little Athletics you have the emphasis on "personal bests" and not who won. In the younger soccer divisions, in Canberra anyway (am I allowed to say that, or am I alluding to how good Canberra is vs country areas?), all the kids get a trophy at the end of the season and there are no prizes for winning divisions.

Overseas I have seen a variety of kids in tears both from Australia and other countries. I think if you put hours and hours of intense training in and focus on a competition, then an outburst of emotion is understandable. it does take different forms. I saw an adult from Sydney smash all the pieces on the floor after losing a game in the Minor at the Aus Open in Canberra in 2001. When Angela Song was beating a girl from Georgia a couple of years ago, the girl started kicking her under the table (Angela being a tough cookie kicked right back).

If I had to pick my variety of emotion, I would rather see someone cry than do either of those.

While it is preferable not to have any displays (crying or anger), I think they are understandable or forgiveable in high stress contexts.

It is probably like playing Wimbledon vs social tennis on a Friday night. While throwing tennis racquets and swearing is not desirable in either place, it is probably a little more understandable at Wimbledon than down at the local club.

Rincewind
29-05-2004, 12:58 PM
All of us have been there - not with chess, but with job promotion or love or sport or endeavour. Same thing applies, don't cry or laugh in the other person's face. It is poor form.

Don't try to broaden the basis of the debate to include displays of haughtiness. We are talking about crying. Genuine emotional displays of disappointment, I fail to see what offends you so much about it.


Ah, but I do come from that culture, so I don't feel very nice if/when an opponent bubbers or laughs. It is disrespectful in my culture.

Again trying to squeeze in laughing. Stick to the topic, Mr Sweeney.


You said it, "socially immature". We don't accept an adult (over 12 y.o.) lieing on their back in the super market isle screaming. Why should we accept some pima donna chess player carrying on like a child? Answer: We should not.

Sorry, carrying on like a prima donna is again something totally different. Perhaps if they refused to play in a tournament if player xyz was playing that would be one thing. We are just talking about emotional outburst of disappointment. They are not calculated displays to alter their situation in any way.


OK, be slightly offended.

Thanks. Now you deign to tell me what emotions I can experience as well as display?


What if I was to reinterpret the sook's behaviour as being symptomatic of their self imposed lack of life experience. Then, could I blast them with both barrels for being a one dimentional fool? Answer: Yes. Therefore, I stand by my original statement. They should "lose with diginty and win with humility."

Your "balancing one's life experience" is basically a philosophy for mediocrity. It is also disingenuous position as you are happy to sample the fruits of the labour of those who have chose to specialise and excel; but then you chastise them for not being a balanced (read "mediocre") as you.


And I take issue with those who:
1. Think wrong to judge.
2. Especially wrong for us (me) to judge because I don't have an idea of what is going on.

Take issue if you will, but it is true. Your philosophy of mediocrity that you wear as a badge is proof of you ineptitude to be that judge.


I know enough to know what is going on. I know it from my life experiences and general reading.

The PoM at work again.


I don't where a shoe if its owner has schit in it and tells me it is their cultural predisposition to do so.

Sounds like (ever so slightly) sanitised intolerence to me.

PHAT
29-05-2004, 03:01 PM
Don't try to broaden the basis of the debate to include displays of haughtiness. We are talking about crying. Genuine emotional displays of disappointment, I fail to see what offends you so much about it.

Again trying to squeeze in laughing. Stick to the topic, Mr Sweeney.

Sorry, carrying on like a prima donna is again something totally different. Perhaps if they refused to play in a tournament if player xyz was playing that would be one thing. We are just talking about emotional outburst of disappointment. They are not calculated displays to alter their situation in any way.

Blubbering OTB is only a subset of unacceptable behaviours that include snivelling, sneering, laughing (at), et cetera. If you want to limit the disco to bawling, OK.


Now you deign to tell me what emotions I can experience as well as display?

You can feel what ever emotions you want! Culture/society determines how you may express them. For example, anger cannot be expressed by going beserk, randiness by public masterbation or disappointment by wailing like a banshee.


Your "balancing one's life experience" is basically a philosophy for mediocrity.

No, it is a philosophy for balance. :wall: If a person goes for excellence in any one part of their life, then necessarily, all other parts must suffer the fait of mediocrity.



It is also disingenuous position as you are happy to sample the fruits of the labour of those who have chose to specialise and excel; but then you chastise them for not being a balanced (read "mediocre") as you.

Example please?
And to preempt your example, it is highly likely that I have to pay for those fruits. Thus, there is no disinginuity at all. I may not like the baker's beard, but I still buy his bread.

What part of your life is filled with excellence - then we can call the remaining facets mediocre.


Your philosophy of mediocrity that you wear as a badge is proof of you ineptitude to be that judge.

Does that apply to duries too? :owned:



Sounds like (ever so slightly) sanitised intolerence to me.


I tolerate drama queen behaviour, but don't have to like it and I don't have to stay quiet about it.

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2004, 03:51 PM
Blubbering OTB is only a subset of unacceptable behaviours that include snivelling, sneering, laughing (at), et cetera. If you want to limit the disco to bawling, OK.
Perhaps then we should include people who continually fail to attend meetings without giving any sort of notice or apology.
Or perhaps we should include adults who carry on like a cut snake about losing out on winning a prize to a junior due to the junior being legitimately awarded a couple of half point byes, making a big noise about how they intend to raise various motions about it and then dont bother to turn up.
All wind no action.

And you have the hide to ctiticise someone for crying.

You are a complete joke.

Oepty
29-05-2004, 04:01 PM
If you look at the first game between Chiburdnadize and Sebag you will see Sebag wasted a totally winning position. Perhaps this is the reason she was upset.
Scott

jenni
29-05-2004, 04:06 PM
This is just a rehash of the bullying thread. Matt has a pathological fear of showing weakness. Crying to him equates with weakness and thus cannot be tolerated.

I would prefer not to see people cry (Mainly out of selfishness - seeing people cry, makes me really miserable inside). However it is a normal emotion and a good way of releasing tension. I would prefer to see someone cry than bottle it all up inside, with the attendent mental problems that can bring.

Rincewind
29-05-2004, 04:08 PM
Blubbering OTB is only a subset of unacceptable behaviours that include snivelling, sneering, laughing (at), et cetera. If you want to limit the disco to bawling, OK.

But we were not discussing all behaviour you find unacceptable. This began as comment on the action of Marie Sebag and all that was reported was "sobbing uncontrollably".


You can feel what ever emotions you want! Culture/society determines how you may express them. For example, anger cannot be expressed by going beserk, randiness by public masterbation or disappointment by wailing like a banshee.

I fail to see how sobbing is in the same class as public materbation and displays of physical violence on others. Please elucidate.


No, it is a philosophy for balance. :wall: If a person goes for excellence in any one part of their life, then necessarily, all other parts must suffer the fait of mediocrity.

True and those that strive for balance have their entire life suffer the fate of mediocrity. If everyone followed this philosophy then there would be no excellence, no Mozart, no Beethoven, no Fischer. Those guys all had(have) glaring personality deficiencies, but it doesn't stop you from admiring their genius.


Example please?

See above.


And to preempt your example, it is highly likely that I have to pay for those fruits. Thus, there is no disinginuity at all. I may not like the baker's beard, but I still buy his bread.

To paraphrase you from another thread: if you admire the games of Fischer then you are partially responsible for his anti-semitic diatribes.


What part of your life is filled with excellence - then we can call the remaining facets mediocre.

You couldn't miss the point by any further if you tried. I would saythe difference between you and I is I certainly don't strive for balance and encourage everyone else to do likewise. I also don't presume to judge everyone according to my world view.


Does that apply to duries too? :owned:

What the hell are "duries"?


I tolerate drama queen behaviour, but don't have to like it and I don't have to stay quiet about it.

As I said before, I think you have missed the point. There is a difference in intention and motivation between being a "drama queen" and someone sobbing uncontrollably after a very important game which was very disappointing.

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2004, 04:16 PM
What the hell are "duries"?
Perhaps they are drunken juries. :hand:

Rincewind
29-05-2004, 04:18 PM
If you look at the first game between Chiburdnadize and Sebag you will see Sebag wasted a totally winning position. Perhaps this is the reason she was upset.

Thanks for the context, Scott. I haven't had a chance to do this research myself. However, I did assume the reason for the sobbing was due to personal disappointment and not a display of disrespect to her opponent.

Very few people are in control of their emotions all of the time. Those that say "what a girl" and "it's only a game" don't appeciate the enormity of the elite players commitment to the "game". It's easy for us patzers to criticise from the sidelines, it's harder for us to understand the situation from the elite players' point of view.

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2004, 04:22 PM
I tolerate drama queen behaviour,
What is more to the point is you exhibit it.

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2004, 05:17 PM
Blubbering OTB is only a subset of unacceptable behaviours that include snivelling, sneering, laughing (at), et cetera. If you want to limit the disco to bawling, OK.

Nonsense. Some of these things express open contempt and disrespect for the opponent. Crying does not necessarily express any attitude towards an opponent. It represents a personal reaction to stress or disappointment.

The only argument you've made here that I do see some interest in is this:


What if I was to reinterpret the sook's behaviour as being symptomatic of their self imposed lack of life experience. Then, could I blast them with both barrels for being a one dimentional fool? Answer: Yes. Therefore, I stand by my original statement. They should "lose with diginty and win with humility."

If it is down to a lack of other life experience that hasn't improved their chess strength then I have some sympathy with this comment. A lot of Bobby Fischer's ridiculous behaviour has been traced by some to him only really living for chess and not having broader interests. Examples like Kasparov and Lasker show that having interests outside chess is no obstacle at all to being a world-class player. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to provide immunity against disrespectful behaviour over the board either.


I tolerate drama queen behaviour, but don't have to like it and I don't have to stay quiet about it.

If I make the obvious rejoinder here it will probably have to go to another pointless flamewar rubbish thread pretty fast.

Except in this case it is actually on-topic, because it goes to the heart of whether your standards are realistic. I'll try not to get into prolonged debate about it on this thread, but I think it should be said.

Judging by your dummy-spitting personal attacks when you lose arguments and your indifference to when your crudeness offends against the standards of others, you are the last person to lecture chess players on gracious losing, and also the last person those crying should care about offending. :hand:

Garvinator
29-05-2004, 05:28 PM
Judging by your dummy-spitting personal attacks when you lose arguments and your indifference to when your crudeness offends against the standards of others, you are the last person to lecture chess players on gracious losing, and also the last person those crying should care about offending. :hand:
do you want to save time and set up another flamewar thread now :lol: :hand:

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2004, 05:48 PM
do you want to save time and set up another flamewar thread now :lol: :hand:

If he responds by insulting me (which he's imperfectly free to do, although it won't acheive anything) then I'll take it to the existing one.

arosar
29-05-2004, 05:58 PM
I got no problem with public displays of crying...but crying cos u lost a game is not on. It's demeaning to one's self and insulting to the opponent. A game of chess, especially, is a proxy for bloody combat. Combatants therefore must conduct themselves with dignity.

AR

Rincewind
29-05-2004, 06:16 PM
If it is down to a lack of other life experience that hasn't improved their chess strength then I have some sympathy with this comment. A lot of Bobby Fischer's ridiculous behaviour has been traced by some to him only really living for chess and not having broader interests. Examples like Kasparov and Lasker show that having interests outside chess is no obstacle at all to being a world-class player. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to provide immunity against disrespectful behaviour over the board either.

I think it is not so much about lack of life-experience as it is about the setting of priorities. The priority of a club game for the average Australian amatuer compared to the other things happening in their life is totally different to the priority of the Chiburdnadize game had in the life of Sebag. To compare the emotional response of a disappointing performance in one to the that in the other is just nonsense.

As Marie Sebag is unlikely to defend herself here I thought someone should speak in her defense, at least from the point of view of understanding and tolerence. I thought the irony that I was labelled "self-righteous" for doing so was simply sublime.

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2004, 06:38 PM
I think it is not so much about lack of life-experience as it is about the setting of priorities. The priority of a club game for the average Australian amatuer compared to the other things happening in their life is totally different to the priority of the Chiburdnadize game had in the life of Sebag. To compare the emotional response of a disappointing performance in one to the that in the other is just nonsense.

I agree - and while Matt might say that a chessplayer would cry because of a lack of a well-rounded life he actually knows nothing about the player in question.


I thought the irony that I was labelled "self-righteous" for doing so was simply sublime.

Indeed. :rolleyes:

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2004, 07:00 PM
I agree - and while Matt might say that a chessplayer would cry because of a lack of a well-rounded life he actually knows nothing about the player in question.
Of course knowing nothing about a sugject has never stopped Matt commenting in the past so why should it now. :whistle:

Lucena
29-05-2004, 08:31 PM
Remember, don't criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, you're a mile away, and have their shoes. ;)
:D Heard it before but it's still funny

Lucena
29-05-2004, 08:35 PM
Isn't there some story about this guy getting a losing position and then picking the board up and smashing it over his opponent's head?

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2004, 08:51 PM
Isn't there some story about this guy getting a losing position and then picking the board up and smashing it over his opponent's head?

There are a good number of such stories.

Alan Shore
30-05-2004, 08:28 AM
I got no problem with public displays of crying...but crying cos u lost a game is not on. It's demeaning to one's self and insulting to the opponent. A game of chess, especially, is a proxy for bloody combat. Combatants therefore must conduct themselves with dignity.

AR

Dignity, for sure. Crying is simply being childish about it, on par with dummy spits and gloating endlessly.

Alan Shore
30-05-2004, 08:42 AM
More self-righteous nonsense from our resident "Balmain-boys don't cry" testosterone fuelled, macho red-neck?

All you can come back with are sub-par childish insults? No wonder you advocate crying. To quote Bart Simpson who may be right about you in this instance, 'you cry when you do long division and have a remainder left over'.

Also, wasn't it something about Balmain boys don't eat quiche? :D



As I pointed out a chess hack from a muddy-backwater wouldn't know squat about what these players are going through and therefore your opinion about what is appropriate is worse than ill-informed.

And again. For one thing Mr Cox (aptly named), I don't take chess seriously at all and never have, yet that is not to say I take nothing seriously. There's been far bigger fish to get upset about than a game (I reiterate) at any level.

Now I have been #1 in the world at a couple of things (unimportant as they are in the scheme of things as they too are games) but crying when getting so close and not quite getting there on the journey never crossed my mind. All it does is affect one's concentration - I recall John McEnroe playing tennis, if a line call did not go his way hge would dummy spit and carry on and subsequently lose the next few points, something that could have been avoided with better control and maturity. (I will say the dummy spits were entertaining to watch though, hehe)


Thanks, I think you will find ample quantities of it above.

Good to see you have no qualms about embarassing yourself.




All of us have been there - not with chess, but with job promotion or love or sport or endeavour. Same thing applies, don't cry or laugh in the other person's face. It is poor form.

I totally agree. Do you cry if you get fired from a job or get dumped by a girl? Sure - if you want to look like an idiot! (I refer of course to 'in front of other people'). And these things are far more important than a game. At least you may have good reason to cry in those situations..

Alan Shore
30-05-2004, 08:51 AM
Isn't there some story about this guy getting a losing position and then picking the board up and smashing it over his opponent's head?

I recall one story. A highly rated player was playing a novice player, and giving no respect, moving immediately and was still in a commanding position up material. However, after one move, he had left his back rank vulnerable to a mate. The novice looked at the board for a few minutes.. picked up the rook.. hovered it in the air for some 20 seconds.. and placed it on the 8th rank - checkmate. The high-rated player promptly used his hand to sweep the board clean of pieces in one fast hand motion, sending them flying.

Also, if you have ever seen the film 'Knight Moves' with Christopher Lambert, the scene at the beginning where the two boys are playing chess, one boy resigns then gets his pen, leaps across the board and starts stabbing his opponent!

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 09:03 AM
All you can come back with are sub-par childish insults? No wonder you advocate crying. To quote Bart Simpson who may be right about you in this instance, 'you cry when you do long division and have a remainder left over'.

Excuse me? I believe you opened the account on childish insults (self-righteous pr**k, remember?). I was just mocking your WASP blinkered view of the world. Perhaps you we just too blinkered to realise. :eek:


Also, wasn't it something about Balmain boys don't eat quiche? :D

I believe "Balmain-boys don't eat quiche" was derivative. A hybridisation of "Balmain boys don't cry" and "real men don't eat quiche".


And again. For one thing Mr Cox (aptly named), I don't take chess seriously at all and never have, yet that is not to say I take nothing seriously. There's been far bigger fish to get upset about than a game (I reiterate) at any level.

Again I reiterate, that is your choice. But don't presume that your choices are the only appropriate ones and don't ridicule someone you know nothing about because they may have made different choices.


Now I have been #1 in the world at a couple of things (unimportant as they are in the scheme of things as they too are games) but crying when getting so close and not quite getting there on the journey never crossed my mind. All it does is affect one's concentration - I recall John McEnroe playing tennis, if a line call did not go his way hge would dummy spit and carry on and subsequently lose the next few points, something that could have been avoided with better control and maturity. (I will say the dummy spits were entertaining to watch though, hehe)

Please expand on these number one exploits as I certainly must have missed those exploits in the broadsheets, so most probably they were in fields which most people don't give a rats.

Don't get me wrong, achievement in any endeavour which requires commitment, perservence is worthy of kudos. However, it's important to put it in perspective. Being #1 Losers player on FICS is not in the same postcode as being women's world champion at OTB chess.

Alan Shore
30-05-2004, 09:16 AM
Excuse me? I believe you opened the account on childish insults (self-righteous pr**k, remember?). I was just mocking your WASP blinkered view of the world. Perhaps you we just too blinkered to realise. :eek:

OK, we both indulged in a bit of unnecessary sledging, I retract anything that may have offended you.








Again I reiterate, that is your choice. But don't presume that your choices are the only appropriate ones and don't ridicule someone you know nothing about because they may have made different choices.

I don't - I'm just expressing my own views, far be it from me to classify those as the 'only appropriate ones'. My intention is not necessarily to ridicule but help them question whether they made the right choices.. one should always be questioning one's motives, they can save you from mistakes.




Please expand on these number one exploits as I certainly must have missed those exploits in the broadsheets, so most probably they were in fields which most people don't give a rats.

Duh, that's why I said they were relatively unimportant, the FICS one and World Record times at Mario Kart don't rate too high even in my eyes :p


Don't get me wrong, achievement in any endeavour which requires commitment, perservence is worthy of kudos. However, it's important to put it in perspective. Being #1 Losers player on FICS is not in the same postcode as being women's world champion at OTB chess


Says you ;)
But how do you 'rank' achievements like these? How does it compare with women's golf? Women's cricket? Men's cricket? Lawn bowls? Being the most distinguished professor at the most prestigious university? Being the world's best sex-god? Being the world's wisest man? This is why IQ is a load of BS, and Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences is a far better model.

ursogr8
30-05-2004, 09:23 AM
Just had a chance to catch-up and this has been an amazing thread with two well-known posters acting out of apparent character.


Baz
While I rather agree with your general argument that it is OK to cry in public after a sporting loss, don’t you think, on reflection, that your posts #3 and #8 are provocative…not like you at all? And then you get stuck into Matthew in post #27 in a most uncharacteristic way?

Matt
Can it really be you who said “Crying is not on. I am with Bruce on this. Crying is plain rude at the end of a game. Unless the person is clinically depressed, then OTB they should lose with dignity - or win with humility. Do your snivelling in private and do your back-flips in your mind.” All of 2003 posting you seemed to be supporting, if not advocating, open expression of ones feelings; but now it seems that super-control is to be paramount?

Personally, I think jenni said it well when she wrote “While it is preferable not to have any displays (crying or anger), I think they are understandable or forgiveable in high stress contexts. “ And I think Shaun was spot on when he wrote “We all have ways of dealing with our success and failure, both men and women.” And Kevin’s “Nonsense. Some of these things express open contempt and disrespect for the opponent. Crying does not necessarily express any attitude towards an opponent. It represents a personal reaction to stress or disappointment.” was spot on I think too.

AR’s post “I got no problem with public displays of crying...but crying cos u lost a game is not on. It's demeaning to one's self and insulting to the opponent. A game of chess, especially, is a proxy for bloody combat. Combatants therefore must conduct themselves with dignity.” might hold the key to the discussion >> Is crying involuntary?

The most famous crying sport incident I can recall was AFL footballer Max Hudgton. He plays for St Kilda and a few years back they had gone near a whole season without winning. Finally, in a game against the Bulldogs the Saints are up 8 goals at half-time. Bit by bit in the second half they are pegged back and lose in the last minute of the game. As the siren sounds Max stands alone in the centre of the Docklands stadium and the camera zeroes in on him. His hands on his hips, his head held high; the big score-board shows Max with tears rolling down his cheeks. In the next week, talk-back in consumed with questions about whether the emotion should have been televised. Hardly anyone questions Max’s right to cry.

Is crying involuntary?


starter

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 09:45 AM
I don't think I've ever been offended on the BB yet. Feel free to sledge me as much as you like. But I will indulge in a return salvo.


I don't - I'm just expressing my own views, far be it from me to classify those as the 'only appropriate ones'. My intention is not necessarily to ridicule but help them question whether they made the right choices.. one should always be questioning one's motives, they can save you from mistakes.

But mistakes in who's eyes? We challenge talent player to become elite. We heap praise on the exploits of the winners. Who are we to turn around and say they're taking it too seriously? To become a elite player I think you would have had to break through the "it's only a game" barrier. People who think that way, don't become world champions.


Duh, that's why I said they were relatively unimportant, the FICS one and World Record times at Mario Kart don't rate too high even in my eyes :p

If the Mario Kart times really are world records then than is something to boast about. Which track(s) and what time(s)? If it was Royal Raceway, I'd be truly impressed. ;) (I'm only an amatuer Mario Karter but I would have some idea as to the enormity of your achievement.)


Says you ;)
But how do you 'rank' achievements like these? How does it compare with women's golf? Women's cricket? Men's cricket? Lawn bowls? Being the most distinguished professor at the most prestigious university? Being the world's best sex-god? Being the world's wisest man? This is why IQ is a load of BS, and Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences is a far better model.

One way to put sporting achievements in persepective is to compare the number competitive participants in that sport. Obviously tennis and golf are hugely competitive practically global in scope so being World #1 is a huge acheivement. Rugby League and Aussie Rules is really only played seriously in one pretty small country so that is less so from a global POV.

OTB chess is the most competitive form of the game at the moment by far. It has a high global participation rate and playing for the Womans WCh is certainly nothing to sneeze at. So if it is ok for Aussie Rules and Rugby League players to cry after winning/losing a "grand final" I think Marie Sebag's is (a) more significant and being in an individual pursuit a greater burden on the individual.

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 10:05 AM
While I rather agree with your general argument that it is OK to cry in public after a sporting loss, donít you think, on reflection, that your posts #3 and #8 are provocativeÖnot like you at all? And then you get stuck into Matthew in post #27 in a most uncharacteristic way?

Firstly, I'm not as anti-provocation as you might think. Hence my provocative and angry-looking avatar. ;)

Secondly, post #3 was only slightly provocative. I thought BD is a bigger cog in Losers rather than Bug, but I was speaking generally, not specifically. I play on FICS too and so I was including myself in that group. (Although I admit I have never played Bug on FICS only Transfer OTB)

Thirdly, post #8 was certainly provocative but not, I believe, insulting. Just pointing out BD's lack of experience in a subject which he apparently had stong feelings about. I certainly could have phrased it more bluntly.

Personally, I thought things really got cooking around post #16 but there was a number of to-and-fro posts which escalated to that point.

Regarding post #27, I did give Matt one reasonable post which outlined the argument thus far (post #24). However, by that stage I was bored with his argument which added nothing new to this thread nor was it different to what had been hashed out in previous threads (regarding balanced life vs mediocrity).

A casual observer might think I went a little far in #27. However, I have the luxury of being able to discuss it with Matt in person this Tuesday. Further those familiar with Matt will realise he has skin of pachodermic thickness so I think there is little chance that he is losing sleep over my efforts. (Although thinking about his position perhaps he is gravely insulted but just too big a man to cry in public).


Is crying involuntary?

The Marie Sebag incident was described as "sobbing uncontrollably". So without reports to the contrary, I would say in this instance it was.

Garvinator
30-05-2004, 10:27 AM
Please expand on these number one exploits as I certainly must have missed those exploits in the broadsheets, so most probably they were in fields which most people don't give a rats.

unfortunately most ppl would put any chess exploits in the, i dont give a rats field :(

ursogr8
30-05-2004, 10:27 AM
Firstly, I'm not as anti-provocation as you might think. Hence my provocative and angry-looking avatar. ;)

Secondly, post #3 was only slightly provocative. I thought BD is a bigger cog in Losers rather than Bug, but I was speaking generally, not specifically. I play on FICS too and so I was including myself in that group. (Although I admit I have never played Bug on FICS only Transfer OTB)

Thirdly, post #8 was certainly provocative but not, I believe, insulting. Just pointing out BD's lack of experience in a subject which he apparently had stong feelings about. I certainly could have phrased it more bluntly.

Personally, I thought things really got cooking around post #16 but there was a number of to-and-fro posts which escalated to that point.

Regarding post #27, I did give Matt one reasonable post which outlined the argument thus far (post #24). However, by that stage I was bored with his argument which added nothing new to this thread nor was it different to what had been hashed out in previous threads (regarding balanced life vs mediocrity).

A casual observer might think I went a little far in #27. However, I have the luxury of being able to discuss it with Matt in person this Tuesday. Further those familiar with Matt will realise he has skin of pachodermic thickness so I think there is little chance that he is losing sleep over my efforts. (Although thinking about his position perhaps he is gravely insulted but just too big a man to cry in public).



The Marie Sebag incident was described as "sobbing uncontrollably". So without reports to the contrary, I would say in this instance it was.

Thanks for the response Baz.
This helps me understand your not-usual tone.
I am still left with the thought that your provocation was in extremis.
Maybe it IS the avatar making you do it (with apologies to the devil). ;)

starter

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 11:34 AM
unfortunately most ppl would put any chess exploits in the, i dont give a rats field :(

That may be true of most people you come in contact with (ie Australians). There are still lots of people in other parts of the world who do care much more.

Mind you, if an Australian was Chess World Champion, they would be a household name, even in Australia that's newsworthy. We tend to like being the best. I think the same would be true if we were of a similar global ability in swimming as it chess, for example. You wouldn't see swimming meets broadcast live-to-air as you do today.

eclectic
30-05-2004, 12:49 PM
Crying Game

(Reworked)

(with apologies to the original lyricist - Dave Berry?)


I know all there is to know
About this crying game
Iíve had enough
Of this crying game.
When you start leaving
Pieces en prise
The frustrationís clear
You let slip a tear
For others to see.


When it suits me
Iíll tell the DOP
About my crying game
Hope heíll be swayed
And accept my claim.
If there are swindles
You need to know
The ploy used to float
The sympathy vote
Is a string for your bow.

Letís have no more of this crying game Ö


[dedicated to sexually ambivalent chess players everywhere ;) ;) ;) ]

eclectic

jenni
30-05-2004, 05:40 PM
Ok - I've been brooding about this for a few days and I feel strongly that this is all very discriminatory to the average woman.

Crying is what we do.

We cry at weddings and funerals, when our children are born, when they start school and when they finish school. A movie isn't really that enjoyable if you don't shed a few tears somewhere along the line. We cry when we lose and when we win and a whole lot of other times as well. In fact we probably cry just to keep a friend company when they cry.

So I suspect crying is involuntary for us a lot of the time and if men are joining us in this useful cathartic experience - welcome! But don't use your male model of what is right to sit in judgement of a woman.

Feldgrau
30-05-2004, 06:52 PM
There is no doubt that losing can inspire strong emotions in chess.

I once had a player who was quite a strong tournament player sweep the pieces off the board against me, some actually hit me in the chest, before he stormed out. He later offered a token apology which I accepted as I knew his actions were in character :)

Feldgrau
30-05-2004, 06:58 PM
Now that reminds me of a game I lost to another strongish player. After I resigned he abused me for playing on so long (The position was truly complicated right up to just before my resignation however). The same opponent had a bit of a history of abusing opponents, both after defeats and victories! You just can't win with some people.

JGB
30-05-2004, 08:15 PM
Now that reminds me of a game I lost to another strongish player. After I resigned he abused me for playing on so long (The position was truly complicated right up to just before my resignation however). .

... thats normally when I slip in the... 'but I was waiting for you to resign! :D ' and walk away.

PHAT
30-05-2004, 09:11 PM
Ok - I've been brooding about this for a few days and I feel strongly that this is all very discriminatory to the average man.

Fighting is what we do.

We fight at weddings and funerals, when our children misbehave, when they fail school and when they get expelled frim school. A movie isn't really that enjoyable if you don't punch some [snip] afterwards. We punch when we lose and when we win and a whole lot of other times as well. In fact we probably puncvh people a bit just to keep a friend when they are in a fight.

So I suspect fighting is involuntary for us a lot of the time and if women will jiion us in this useful cathartic experience - welcome! [se "Fight Clubb"]] But don't use your female model of what is right to sit in judgement of a manb.

idiot

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 09:18 PM
The difference is crying is not criminal assault. If it weren't for this gaping hole in your argument, you would have had a point. :D

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 09:23 PM
Damn! Barry beat me to it.

In breaking news, a Wollongong man was admitted to hospital today after an emotionally-charged female chessplayer embarked on a berserk drive-by crying fit outside the tournament hall, critically wailing at least eighteen innocent bystanders. Mr Sweeney is having his stomach pumped and is expected to make a full recovery, but may lose several litres of alcohol in the process.

Lucena
30-05-2004, 09:30 PM
I love this rule-to what extent does it apply to this issue of crying? Can this rule be particularly enforced? Is it?

"12.1. The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute."

jenni
30-05-2004, 09:31 PM
idiot

snap

jenni
30-05-2004, 09:32 PM
Ok - I've been brooding about this for a few days and I feel strongly that this is all very discriminatory to the average man.

Fighting is what we do.

We fight at weddings and funerals, when our children misbehave, when they fail school and when they get expelled frim school. A movie isn't really that enjoyable if you don't punch some [snip] afterwards. We punch when we lose and when we win and a whole lot of other times as well. In fact we probably puncvh people a bit just to keep a friend when they are in a fight.

So I suspect fighting is involuntary for us a lot of the time and if women will jiion us in this useful cathartic experience - welcome! [se "Fight Clubb"]] But don't use your female model of what is right to sit in judgement of a manb.

idiot

What's a manb? Some Sweeney created model of what he thinks a man should be?

PHAT
30-05-2004, 09:38 PM
What's a manb? Some Sweeney created model of what he thinks a man should be?

naa , just a typo . You got somer other low grade criticism to make.

PHAT
30-05-2004, 09:42 PM
The difference is crying is not criminal assault.

Crying in public is emotional blackmail. chix who use it should go to gaol.

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 09:44 PM
I love this rule-to what extent does it apply to this issue of crying? Can this rule be particularly enforced? Is it?

"12.1. The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute."

If that rule was enforced nearly as often as it should international chess politics would be a very different landscape as we see today. :D

I guess if Matt was the DOP he might punish a player for crying after a game. However, that decision might be overturned on appeal.

Ian Rout
30-05-2004, 09:44 PM
I think it could be said that crying over a lost chess game is unprofessional (would a businessperson cry at missing a contract, or a scientist cry over a failed experiment?). It is perhaps also disproportionate, putting it in the same class as, for instance, a bereavement. But I have to agree with those who say, and have given examples, that there are many much worse forms of behaviour.

jenni
30-05-2004, 09:45 PM
Dedicated to the one and only Sweeney.


I would actually get cross with you, except if what you have let slip of your background is true, you have to feel compassionate instead.

Dad ran off with another woman, brought up by a single mother, thus probably lacking a good male role model. Bullied at school and thus learnt that you have to be strong and mistakes aggression and violence for strength. Resents women.

Pity - there is a lot about you that I like - with a different upbringing you might have learnt to understand real strength.

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 09:46 PM
Crying in public is emotional blackmail. chix who use it should go to gaol.

You play a game and beat someone, they cry. You still get your point. Who's the victim?

Lucena
30-05-2004, 09:49 PM
If that rule was enforced nearly as often as it should international chess politics would be a very different landscape as we see today. :D


Yes I thought that was the case :)

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 09:51 PM
I think it could be said that crying over a lost chess game is unprofessional (would a businessperson cry at missing a contract, or a scientist cry over a failed experiment?).

I've never known a scientist who'd cry over a failed experiment.

I've known a few who'd cry over missing a research grant though.

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 09:51 PM
I think it could be said that crying over a lost chess game is unprofessional (would a businessperson cry at missing a contract, or a scientist cry over a failed experiment?). It is perhaps also disproportionate, putting it in the same class as, for instance, a bereavement. But I have to agree with those who say, and have given examples, that there are many much worse forms of behaviour.

Are football players crying after a loss in a grandfinal or world cup final acting unprofessoinally? I would class a game in the WCh more in this sort of league then a failed business venture or experiment.

I don't think crying is the solely appropriate in the context of bereavement. Do you?

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 09:54 PM
If that rule was enforced nearly as often as it should international chess politics would be a very different landscape as we see today. :D

I would definitely not apply the disrepute rule to a player for crying after the game. I might apply the "playing environment" rule in arbiter duties and throw them out of the room (gently) if they were distracting players still playing their game.


I guess if Matt was the DOP he might punish a player for crying after a game. However, that decision might be overturned on appeal.

I suspect it might be overturned by a player boycott threat actually.

Lucena
30-05-2004, 10:02 PM
I would actually get cross with you, except if what you have let slip of your background is true, you have to feel compassionate instead.

Dad ran off with another woman, brought up by a single mother, thus probably lacking a good male role model. Bullied at school and thus learnt that you have to be strong and mistakes aggression and violence for strength. Resents women.

Pity - there is a lot about you that I like - with a different upbringing you might have learnt to understand real strength.
Gee jenni, aren't you being a bit harsh on Ian?

PHAT
30-05-2004, 10:05 PM
Are football players crying after a loss in a grandfinal or world cup final acting unprofessoinally? I would class a game in the WCh more in this sort of league then a failed business venture or experiment.

I don't think crying is the solely appropriate in the context of bereavement. Do you?

Business failures and profesional chess games are nothing in comparrison to personal bareavement (death/love/seperation). For <snip>, public crying is a <snip> responce to a profesional set back.

jenni
30-05-2004, 10:06 PM
Gee jenni, aren't you being a bit harsh on Ian?
Yes I knew someone would say that. Let me put it on record in case anyone else thinks the same (I know you don't :). I have the utmost admiration for Ian - for his dedication to chess and community feeling.

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 10:06 PM
Gee jenni, aren't you being a bit harsh on Ian?

:shhh:

Don't interrupt when she's dishing the dirt. ;)

I'm glad IR chucked that message in or people will think she's talking about me! :eek:

Lucena
30-05-2004, 10:09 PM
No Jenni of course I knew you were talking about Matthew not Ian I was just being an oaf :D

jenni
30-05-2004, 10:10 PM
No Jenni of course I knew you were talking about Matthew not Ian I was just being an oaf :D

I did find it funny. :)

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 10:11 PM
Business failures and profesional chess games are nothing in comparrison to personal bareavement (death/love/seperation). For <snip>, public crying is a <snip> responce to a profesional set back.

You can keep saying that if you wish but it doesn't make it true. Feel free to ignore the flaws pointed out with your argument too. You are beginning to remind me of the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Your arm's completely off!
No it isn't! It's just a flesh wound!

:D

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 10:13 PM
Crying in public is emotional blackmail. chix who use it should go to gaol.

He's drunk, incapable, tired and worse
At least he still can post in verse

Lucena
30-05-2004, 10:14 PM
You can keep saying that if you wish but it doesn't make it true. Feel free to ignore the flaws pointed out with your argument too. You are beginning to remind me of the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Your arm's completely off!
No it isn't! It's just a flesh wound!

:D

Is that the one with the super-rabbit?

PHAT
30-05-2004, 10:17 PM
Dedicated to the one and only Sweeney.


... learnt that you have to be strong and mistakes aggression and violence for strength. Resents women.



Acually , jenni, I lerrrrve women. they are so much better at being "human" than men that ........ I cannot say any mor.

Lucena
30-05-2004, 10:17 PM
Ok. Forget crying-what's the very worst chess behaviour any of you people has ever observed or heard about?

PHAT
30-05-2004, 10:24 PM
Is that the one with the super-rabbit?

yes, and "What is your favrite colour?"

"Blue, no red ... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 10:27 PM
Is that the one with the super-rabbit?

Yep full of many classic and unrelated jokes. Another one of my favourites..


...And that, my lord, is how we know the world to be banana-shaped.

This new learning fascinates me! Explain again how sheeps bladders can be employed in the prevention of earthquakes.

I daren't discuss it any further, lest GG will suggest a new Monty Python thread.


BTW did you have any other questions on Logistic Distribution. I kept my answer very brief on the other thread as I suspected Chess6464 was just trying to drum up business for his online gambling site. I also didn't know where I needed to start from (what I could assume you know). If you have any specific question let me know via PM or in the Rec Math thread or something.

PHAT
30-05-2004, 10:28 PM
Ok. Forget crying-what's the very worst chess behaviour any of you people has ever observed or heard about?

Worse I ever heardabout was a bloke who snotted a block for being noidsy at the deiberl cup. But I reckon forgive forever and forget never :D

Garvinator
30-05-2004, 10:29 PM
I daren't discuss it any further, lest GG will suggest a new Monty Python thread.

or you could start the thread before i say anything :p :lol: :whistle: :whistle:

jenni
30-05-2004, 10:31 PM
Ok. Forget crying-what's the very worst chess behaviour any of you people has ever observed or heard about?
I was going to use Doeberl 2000, but Sweeney got their first. So I'll use the girl who started kicking Angela Song under the table when she was losing, at the World Youth in Crete in 2002.

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 10:36 PM
Ok. Forget crying-what's the very worst chess behaviour any of you people has ever observed or heard about?

Heard about (world) - Kasparov's take-back against Polgar. Only a minor offence under normal circumstances but given the strength of the offender and his record against the opponent, a disgrace.

Heard about (Australia) - firegoat7 and Mr Gaft giving chess some publicity it didn't need at the Doeberl.

Witnessed personally - I've seen all kinds of rank cheating and bullying in junior chess (below U12), as often as not the spectators (parents) being as bad as the players. In adult events - possibly the "bunnyswindled" incident mentioned above (it was very disrespectful as the opponent was not much stronger than the player who won the game.)

However most of the worst chess-related behaviour I've ever seen has involved chess admin and not the game itself.

PHAT
30-05-2004, 10:50 PM
However most of the worst chess-related behaviour I've ever seen has involved chess admin and not the game itself.

Name manes
or
Give specifics
or
be a gutless wornm.

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 11:07 PM
Name manes
or
Give specifics
or
be a gutless wornm.

In a thread a while ago I suggested the ACF run a biggest Blitz cheat tournament. With one rep from each state to play off in a big cheating blitz round robin event. State reps to be decided by nomination of BB posters from the various states and territories.

I did make a call for nominations. However, none were forthcoming. :)

I assume NSW and Vic posters were spoilt by choice. What about the smaller (by population) states and territories. Who are your biggest cheats? Surely you can't have that many really good ones.

(Starter, is this being provocative?)

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 11:16 PM
Name manes
or
Give specifics
or
be a gutless wornm.

One example: A petty internal club dispute that initially flared over a minor matter of tournament organisation and a player's refusal to supply his losing scoresheet to a newsletter editor ... and was fuelled by personality conflicts, ending up with players temporarily banned, boycotting, refusing to shake hands before games, squabbling during a game and writing (between them) literally hundreds of pages of vexatious-litigant nonsense. This rubbish had the dubious honour of inspiring one section of the ACF By-Laws on misconduct, namely the one that bans players from persistently refusing to play against a specific opponent with whom they are paired. It is more or less cleaned up now but was a running sore for several months.

PHAT
30-05-2004, 11:20 PM
Along the same lines, I have talked about a sledging tournament. During the game you can say or do anything you like to intimidate or distract your oppponent (or ather players). What a totaly funny our-of-control event that would be!!

[ It woul d almost be like the big board ublic chess in central Wollongog :hand: ]

Rincewind
30-05-2004, 11:20 PM
One example: A petty internal club dispute that initially flared over a minor matter of tournament organisation and a player's refusal to supply his losing scoresheet to a newsletter editor ... and was fuelled by personality conflicts, ending up with players temporarily banned, boycotting, refusing to shake hands before games, squabbling during a game and writing (between them) literally hundreds of pages of vexatious-litigant nonsense. This rubbish had the dubious honour of inspiring one section of the ACF By-Laws on misconduct, namely the one that bans players from persistently refusing to play against a specific opponent with whom they are paired. It is more or less cleaned up now but was a running sore for several months.

I suppose it was pointed out at the time that the scoresheet wasn't "his" and that they remain the property of the tournament organiser.

jenni
30-05-2004, 11:22 PM
as often as not the spectators (parents) being as bad as the players.
.

This is certainly true. In fact bad parental behaviour is so prevalent it becomes normal. Not that I've seen much cheating, but lots of abusive behaviour towards children when they lose.

It is common in other sports as well and most sports have codes of conduct for players, coaches and parents. Perhaps something the ACF should be looking at implementing?

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 11:37 PM
What about the smaller (by population) states and territories. Who are your biggest cheats? Surely you can't have that many really good ones.

If we have any adult cheats they're so good at escaping detection we haven't caught them yet.

The only real cheating-type incident I recall was the Premilovac-Donnelly game in 2001 where Premilovac made two moves in a row while illegally attempting to blitz Donnelly, then went for a walk while waiting for his clock to run below five mins in a way that gave the impression he was resigning. (Donnelly himself had been slightly slack on scoring when he had about six mins left earlier in the game). I'm not actually sure this was a deliberate attempt at cheating as much as sheer ignorance of the rules.

We have lots of cheating in junior chess here from time to time. In about '94 I forfeited a team two boards for cross-advising each other and I've had plenty of cases where I've thrown parents out of the playing area or penalised kids time for annoying their opponents during games.

Many-time state blitz champ Nigel Frame doesn't cheat as such but loves to use the rulebook as the 34th piece during longer time-limit time scrambles. The most memorable was when he was playing Neville Ledger and Ledger made an informal query to the DOP about draw claims, which query Ledger incorrectly assumed counted as a draw claim. Frame was worried Ledger would make a valid draw claim and, to provoke Ledger into remaining interested in trying to win, he ran his own clock down to one minute and threw away some pawns. At one stage both players were playing completely meaningless moves including unclaimed triple reps, and the clock was being knocked off the table on a regular basis. Frame wasn't claiming the triple reps because he wanted to win somehow - time being the only way he could - and Ledger wasn't claiming them because he thought he did not have to, having already (he thought) claimed a draw. Ledger's flag fell and Frame won. These days we have Article 10.2 for this kind of thing.

Kevin Bonham
30-05-2004, 11:49 PM
I suppose it was pointed out at the time that the scoresheet wasn't "his" and that they remain the property of the tournament organiser.

Curiously enough that point never, ever came up to my knowledge.

However had it done so, there would have been a catch.

He was the tournament organiser. :hmm:

Rincewind
31-05-2004, 12:04 AM
Curiously enough that point never, ever came up to my knowledge.

However had it done so, there would have been a catch.

He was the tournament organiser. :hmm:

Then I think you had a separation of powers issue. ;)

Regarding cheating I was talking about less gamesmanship more cheating things like.

The ol' pawn move of x+0.5 squares. Or the double pawn move from the third rank (knowingly of course). Intentional illegal moves of any sort should also be included but the pawn moves are typical, especially when a pawn race endgame is looming.

Holding down your button so as to prevent the opponent from stopping their clock. (This trick still works on the NGT swing style digitals). The old anlogue clocks also provided the opportunity to make small adjustments to the times mid-game which the digitals make much more difficult. Another favourite of the analogue clocks was to only wind one spring or use a clock known to be faulty to one's advantage.

If no one is going to name names, perhaps they could suggest favourite cheatz...

ursogr8
31-05-2004, 08:55 AM
(Starter, is this being provocative?)

Baz
I don't have a problem with you being provocative.
But I would like a bit of consistency if this is to be the new you.

1 Drop the MODERATOR title and use 'agent provocateur' instead.
2 Set maths puzzles with inherent no-solution conditions.
3 Be a little irrational on occasions.

starter

Alan Shore
31-05-2004, 09:23 AM
Ok - I've been brooding about this for a few days and I feel strongly that this is all very discriminatory to the average woman.

Crying is what we do.

We cry at weddings and funerals, when our children are born, when they start school and when they finish school. A movie isn't really that enjoyable if you don't shed a few tears somewhere along the line. We cry when we lose and when we win and a whole lot of other times as well. In fact we probably cry just to keep a friend company when they cry.

So I suspect crying is involuntary for us a lot of the time and if men are joining us in this useful cathartic experience - welcome! But don't use your male model of what is right to sit in judgement of a woman.

Which is why I first asked, 'is this typical of a woman or of just a player who takes what they do too seriously?' According to your post it's the former. So be it, I don't have a problem and I don't judge women for that. It's the latter part of my question I may look down upon, without sufficient reason to do so, i.e. losing a chess game.

Ian Rout
31-05-2004, 09:36 AM
Are football players crying after a loss in a grandfinal or world cup final acting unprofessoinally? I would class a game in the WCh more in this sort of league then a failed business venture or experiment.

I don't think crying is the solely appropriate in the context of bereavement. Do you?
On the second, not solely, but it's the sort of major circumstance where we would find it normal. Crying over little setbacks is the sort of thing we associate with small children. We wouldn't be surprised at a two-year-old crying over its mother refusing to give it a chocolate bar, but we would if it was a 31-year old.

The footballer losing a grand final is a good analogy. Yes it is, in isolation, unprofessional and the reason it is often construed as good (demonstrating passion and commitment) rather than bad (demonstrating immaturity and a lack of proportion) is that losing the grand final is interpreted as a loss of such importance as to be not too remote from a bereavement. It is also not purely selfish, the player feels not just their own loss but the disappointment of the supporters who he feels he has let down.

We would however not expect to see a player crying over a mid-season game. And if a player cried after losing the final of the world championship (or Wimbledon, or the soccer World Cup or an Olympic final) I think it would be considered more normal than after being eliminated in an early round.

But if a player wants to cry, that's their business, they aren't hurting anyone. Ditto if someone wants to comment on someone crying.

Rincewind
31-05-2004, 10:33 AM
1 Drop the MODERATOR title and use 'agent provocateur' instead.

Actually I use the Pen≤ title. If the pen is mightier than the sword then Pen≤ must really be good (assuming of course that the value of Sword > 1).


2 Set maths puzzles with inherent no-solution conditions.

The trouble is that either you can prove there is no solution, and then this proof is considered as good as a solution. Or you simply conject there is no solution and someone proves you wrong. There is a theory that goes that knowing that a problem has not been solved can make it harder to solve than approaching it without expectation.


3 Be a little irrational on occasions.

If it makes you feel better I have pencils up both nostrils, underpants on my head and I'm saying "twibble" as I type. Is that better?

Rincewind
31-05-2004, 10:51 AM
On the second, not solely, but it's the sort of major circumstance where we would find it normal. Crying over little setbacks is the sort of thing we associate with small children. We wouldn't be surprised at a two-year-old crying over its mother refusing to give it a chocolate bar, but we would if it was a 31-year old.

That's true but it probably has more to do with the child not being able to source a chocolate bar themselves, whereas most 31-y-o's can.


The footballer losing a grand final is a good analogy. Yes it is, in isolation, unprofessional and the reason it is often construed as good (demonstrating passion and commitment) rather than bad (demonstrating immaturity and a lack of proportion) is that losing the grand final is interpreted as a loss of such importance as to be not too remote from a bereavement. It is also not purely selfish, the player feels not just their own loss but the disappointment of the supporters who he feels he has let down.

The same is true of chess players who have teams and supporters behind the scenes who a player may feel they have let down as well as themselves. I wonder though how much of grand final emotion is personal and how much is genuine concern for the fans.


We would however not expect to see a player crying over a mid-season game. And if a player cried after losing the final of the world championship (or Wimbledon, or the soccer World Cup or an Olympic final) I think it would be considered more normal than after being eliminated in an early round.

Mid-season losses can generally be come back from. The same is true of Phase 1 World Cup games. Once tournaments are in the knock-out phase every game is vital. Wimbledon is not really a good analogy as tennis players play this sort of format all the time and if they are eliminated in one tournament there is another a few weeks later. Sure Wimbledon is important but there are 4 grandslams almost every year as well as many other prestigious tournaments.


But if a player wants to cry, that's their business, they aren't hurting anyone. Ditto if someone wants to comment on someone crying.

I not saying people shouldn't comment on someone crying. But if they are going to make comment then it should be made w.r.t to context of the incident in question.

I accept that you consider crying after a chess game is unprofessional. I agree it is better to not cry than to cry. However, I don't think you can say Marie Sebag is taking her game "too seriously" or is somehow fundamentally lacking in life experience to be crying after "only a game".

That might be a reasonable position for amatuers, but I think the level of commitment and importance has to be taken into account. Also the no crying rule might also be the accepted norm for anglo-males. However, franco-females may not subscribe to that particular norm.

ursogr8
31-05-2004, 01:11 PM
Actually I use the Pen≤ title. If the pen is mightier than the sword then Pen≤ must really be good (assuming of course that the value of Sword > 1).




I liked my line better.
But yours is a good mathematicians attempt at humour.




The trouble is that either you can prove there is no solution, and then this proof is considered as good as a solution. Or you simply conject there is no solution and someone proves you wrong. There is a theory that goes that knowing that a problem has not been solved can make it harder to solve than approaching it without expectation.


Good point of yours.
And I have posted x months ago on the other theory that knowing a solution does exist actually helps with maintaining a positive attitude. (It may have been one of my posts/hints on that Kasparov problem).




If it makes you feel better I have pencils up both nostrils, underpants on my head and I'm saying "twibble" as I type. Is that better?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Your sentence helped me remember that marvellous animation which finishes with the line "I stick balloons up my nose, and I vote”.

It is called LATEX LOBOTOMY and can be viewed at
http://www.wired.com/animation/collection/scott_bateman/latex_lobotomy/

(Takes a while to download).

BTW, this is my cultural contribution for the month. No further expansion accepted.

starter

Lucena
04-06-2004, 04:47 PM
If it makes you feel better I have pencils up both nostrils, underpants on my head and I'm saying "twibble" as I type. Is that better?

:lol: :clap:

Rincewind
04-06-2004, 07:20 PM
:lol: :clap:

It's not original. Can anyone name the reference?

Alan Shore
04-06-2004, 09:02 PM
It's not original. Can anyone name the reference?

It's not it but the closest I can recall is in Blackadder when the Queen was having a fancy dress party. Baldrick had 2 pencils up his nose.

Queen: What are you supposed to be Baldrick?
Baldrick: A pencil case.

:clap:

Alan Shore
04-06-2004, 09:19 PM
If the Mario Kart times really are world records then than is something to boast about. Which track(s) and what time(s)? If it was Royal Raceway, I'd be truly impressed. ;) (I'm only an amatuer Mario Karter but I would have some idea as to the enormity of your achievement.)

It was Koopa Beach 1 in SMK that I held the #1 time. I must have played that one track more than all the others combined, hehe. Mario Kart was a game that could cause a lot of rage though, doing near perfect laps then stuff up the final corner of the 5th lap.. grrr...

Rhubarb
04-06-2004, 09:29 PM
It's not it but the closest I can recall is in Blackadder.

Baz's line comes from Blackadder Goes Forth, I think, when Blackadder pretends to be insane to get out of the war (of course, Yossarian already unsuccessfully tried this in Catch-22 :) )

Kezza Stead is also a big Blackadder fan, and can quote lines verbatim from any episode.

Alan Shore
04-06-2004, 09:50 PM
Baz's line comes from Blackadder Goes Forth, I think, when Blackadder pretends to be insane to get out of the war (of course, Yossarian already unsuccessfully tried this in Catch-22 :) )

Kezza Stead is also a big Blackadder fan, and can quote lines verbatim from any episode.

Ahhhh I see. I was actually watching a heap of Blackadder today (for the first time) I watched all of Blackadder III and the first ep of Goes Forth. A great show, I'm amazed to see what a depth of character Rowan Atkinson has having only really seen him a lot as Mr Bean.

Red Dwarf remains my favourite Britcom though :D

Kerry Stead
08-06-2004, 04:06 AM
Baz's line comes from Blackadder Goes Forth, I think, when Blackadder pretends to be insane to get out of the war (of course, Yossarian already unsuccessfully tried this in Catch-22 :) )

Kezza Stead is also a big Blackadder fan, and can quote lines verbatim from any episode.

Indeed I am ... have all 4 series on DVD, as well as Blackadder's Christmas Carol ... also have 'The Cavalier Years' special on the computer ... also have all the scripts in a book ...

Watched a number of episodes (again) with Greg and Tony Davis in Adelaide during the Australian Championships ... no wonder I played so badly!

Favourite Seiries would have to be 4 (closely followed by 2), although the Dictionary episode (Ink & Incapability) in series 3 is probably my favourite single episode ... 'Sausage! Sausage!' ... Baldrick & the Prince's attempts at definitions are also hilarious ... as is Blackadder's rebuttal of Dr Johnson ...

As for Bruce Dickinson's comments, I'd rate Blackadder number 1, with Red Dwarf a close second in the best British comedy race.

Rhubarb
08-06-2004, 01:29 PM
I'd rate Blackadder number 1, with Red Dwarf a close second in the best British comedy race.

I'd go Yes Minister, Fawlty Towers, Blackadder and then maybe Red Dwarf.

PHAT
08-06-2004, 02:19 PM
I'd go Yes Minister, Fawlty Towers, Blackadder and then maybe Red Dwarf.

and Absolutely Fabulous
and The Young Ones.


The Poms now have some real competition now with ABC's Kath & Kim.

Rincewind
08-06-2004, 11:51 PM
and Absolutely Fabulous
and The Young Ones.


The Poms now have some real competition now with ABC's Kath & Kim.

Bzzzt!

Are you guys forgetting the original Monty Python Flying Circus? That has some of the funniest stuff ever made. Young Ones, Blackadder, Fawlty Towers the list goes on.

More recent stuff include The Fast Show and The League of Gentlemen which were both very funny. TLoG in particular. Oh and Father Ted. That show had some absolutely classic episode and some great (though irreverent) lines. The Eurovision Song Contest episode was a classic with Ireland's entry "My Loverly Horse". :lol:

Kath and Kim is probably about as funny as Ab Fab. Entertaining at times but generally tired and over done.

Yes, obviously Kerry won the competition. I also have a habit of quoting lines from all of the aforementioned shows (et al) verbatim so it is probably important that we never meet. ;) (After a few beers I start doing Derek and Clive recitals which can become :oops: ).

Alan Shore
08-06-2004, 11:56 PM
Oh and Father Ted. That show had some absolutely classic episode and some great (though irreverent) lines. The Eurovision Song Contest episode was a classic with Ireland's entry "My Loverly Horse". :lol:


My lovely horse, running through the fields... :D

Father Ted was so good.. such a shame about Dermot Morgan passing away...

Rincewind
09-06-2004, 12:07 AM
My lovely horse, running through the fields... :D

Father Ted was so good.. such a shame about Dermot Morgan passing away...

Certainly was.

For those who haven't experienced My Lovely Horse, this site is a must visit:

http://www.fathertedonline.ukf.net/videoclips.htm

For those who have, it is also a must visit to hear it again. :D

rob
18-06-2004, 02:55 PM
Indeed I am ... have all 4 series on DVD, as well as Blackadder's Christmas Carol ... also have 'The Cavalier Years' special on the computer ... also have all the scripts in a book ...

Watched a number of episodes (again) with Greg and Tony Davis in Adelaide during the Australian Championships ... no wonder I played so badly!

Favourite Seiries would have to be 4 (closely followed by 2), although the Dictionary episode (Ink & Incapability) in series 3 is probably my favourite single episode ... 'Sausage! Sausage!' ... Baldrick & the Prince's attempts at definitions are also hilarious ... as is Blackadder's rebuttal of Dr Johnson ...

As for Bruce Dickinson's comments, I'd rate Blackadder number 1, with Red Dwarf a close second in the best British comedy race.

You guys may be interested to know that the BBC website had a poll earlier this year of the top 100 comedies, and the top 10 were as follows:

1st Only Fools & Horses
2nd Blackadder
3rd Vicar of Dibley
4th Dadís Army
5th Fawlty Towers
6th Yes Minister
7th Porridge
8th Open all hours
9th The good life
10th One foot in the grave

Its a shame that the clear winner 'Only Fools & Horses' is hard to get here in Aus. I too have the Blackadder scripts, videos, and a couple of audio cassettes (other WA players Jay Lakner and Sophie Payne are huge fans too). Unfortunately my wife often calls me either Baldrick or Trigger.

I love the above 10 sit-coms and Red Dwarf too (18th). Nat & I are also big 'Carry-On' & 'The Bill' fans. I find it quite easy to have Blackadder quotes popping into my head when playing: 'I have a cunning plan'.

Alan Shore
18-06-2004, 03:39 PM
Percy: Oh, Blackadder! Did you miss me?
Blackadder: There were many times I said to myself, I wish Percy was here..... instead of me.
Baldrick: Did you miss me my lord?
Blackadder: ..erm.. Baldrick wasn't it? Hmm.. No, not really.

rob
18-06-2004, 03:46 PM
Percy: Oh, Blackadder! Did you miss me?
Blackadder: There were many times I said to myself, I wish Percy was here..... instead of me.
Baldrick: Did you miss me my lord?
Blackadder: ..erm.. Baldrick wasn't it? Hmm.. No, not really.

Blackadder: Baldrick, thankyou for introducing me to a whole new experience
Baldrick: What experience is that?
Blackadder: Being pleased to see you. What are you doing here you revolting peasant
(I may not be 100%)

Just call me 'Bob'.

rob
18-06-2004, 04:00 PM
I'd go Yes Minister, Fawlty Towers, Blackadder and then maybe Red Dwarf.

If you like Yes Minister how about yes Prime Minister (what is a death list?).
British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher (the only British PM that ever had any balls) rated Yes Minister as her favourite show.

I briefly worked in the british public service and now work in the aus public service and so can easily appreciate the humour of how govt 'works'.

rob
18-06-2004, 04:06 PM
Favourite Seiries would have to be 4 (closely followed by 2), although the Dictionary episode (Ink & Incapability) in series 3 is probably my favourite single episode ... 'Sausage! Sausage!' ... Baldrick & the Prince's attempts at definitions are also hilarious ... as is Blackadder's rebuttal of Dr Johnson ...


I shall return interfrastically...