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Capablanca-Fan
23-06-2007, 12:41 AM
Many players never meet this, but it's worth knowing, because it could happen next game! Wikipedia, for a change, doesn't do a bad job of explaining it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_and_knight_checkmate), similar to some of my training positions for the Logan CC Study Group.

I had to face it this year (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=152953&postcount=48), and succeeded. Strangely enough, at an Olympiad in 1988, I was preparing to face it against Martin del Campo (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1450741), but this was in the bad old days of adjournments, and my opponent resigned rather than having to return later.

Some previous games include:


a lesser known Anderssen game where he sacrificed the exchange for an attack in a queenless middlegame against Morphy (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1019062). Morphy was too gentlemanly to play out the mate.
Anand-Kasparov Linares 1999 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1257987), with deft maneuvres by Kasparov at the end, winning the lone N. IIRC Tim Krabbé's annotations included an exasperated, "Yes, of course the World Champ can mate with B+N!"
To remove any doubt about the great chess skills of the élite, see how Judit Polgár did it blindfold against the also blindfolded Ljubojević (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1092636), in a method somewhat off the beaten tracks, but described in Averbakh & Maizelis, Pawn Endings (the final chapter is on basic mates).

Rincewind
23-06-2007, 12:57 AM
I can't remember having to do this. Not in a comp game anyway.

Though I did spend some time studying it when going through Muller and Lamprecht's book. They emphasis the final manouvering of the King from the corner of one colour to the other and the 'W' shape the knight manouver in particular.

Not sure if I could remember how to do it in 50 moves OTB anymore. I prefer to try to not get into pawnless endings instead. At least in endings when I am up materially. :)

Kevin Bonham
23-06-2007, 01:18 AM
I was priveleged to witness this in person.

[Event "AUS-ch"]
[Site "Melbourne"]
[Date "2001.12.28"]
[Round "1.13"]
[White "Feldman, Vladimir"]
[Black "Wright, Ian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E43"]
[WhiteElo "2346"]
[BlackElo "2131"]
[PlyCount "160"]
[EventDate "2001.12.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 b6 5. Bd3 Bb7 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. Qc2 f5 8. O-O
Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Nd2 Qh4 11. f3 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 d6 13. a4 a5 14. Qa2 Qe7 15.
Rab1 Nd7 16. Bc1 Kh8 17. Ba3 e5 18. Qc2 e4 19. fxe4 fxe4 20. Be2 Rxf1+ 21. Rxf1
Rf8 22. Rxf8+ Qxf8 23. Bg4 Nf6 24. Be2 Bc6 25. Bd1 Qf7 26. Qe2 Bd7 27. c5 dxc5
28. dxc5 Qd5 29. cxb6 cxb6 30. c4 Qd3 31. Qxd3 exd3 32. c5 Nd5 33. Kf2 bxc5 34.
Bxc5 Nc3 35. Bf3 d2 36. Bb6 d1=Q 37. Bxd1 Nxd1+ 38. Ke1 Nc3 39. Bxa5 Nxa4 40.
Kf2 Bc6 41. h4 Kg8 42. g4 Kf7 43. Kg3 Ke6 44. Kf4 Nc5 45. Bc3 g6 46. h5 Ne4 47.
hxg6 hxg6 48. Bb4 g5+ 49. Kf3 Kd5 50. Be7 Kc4 51. Bxg5 Nxg5+ 52. Kf4 Ne4 53.
Ke5 Kd3 54. g5 Nxg5 55. e4 Nxe4 56. Kf5 Kd4 57. Ke6 Nc5+ 58. Kf5 Be4+ 59. Kf6
Kd5 60. Ke7 Ke5 61. Kf7 Bf5 62. Kg7 Ke6 63. Kf8 Nd7+ 64. Kg7 Ne5 65. Kh8 Kf6
66. Kg8 Nf7 67. Kf8 Bh7 68. Ke8 Ne5 69. Kd8 Ke6 70. Kc7 Nd7 71. Kc6 Bd3 72. Kc7
Bb5 73. Kd8 Nf6 74. Kc7 Nd5+ 75. Kd8 Kf7 76. Kc8 Ke7 77. Kb7 Kd7 78. Kb8 Ba6
79. Ka7 Bc8 80. Kb8 Ne7 0-1

I've never personally had to win it and due to its scarcity learning it has never been high on my list of priorities - I am working on it every now and then when I have a few moments and hope to get it learned perfectly eventually.

I did however get a draw in a rapid game I was losing by playing into it hoping (correctly) that my opponent did not know how to win it.

Capablanca-Fan
23-06-2007, 02:10 AM
I was priveleged to witness this in person.

[Event "AUS-ch"]
[Site "Melbourne"]
[Date "2001.12.28"]
[Round "1.13"]
[White "Feldman, Vladimir"]
[Black "Wright, Ian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E43"]
[WhiteElo "2346"]
[BlackElo "2131"]
[PlyCount "160"]
[EventDate "2001.12.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 b6 5. Bd3 Bb7 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. Qc2 f5 8. O-O
Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Nd2 Qh4 11. f3 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 d6 13. a4 a5 14. Qa2 Qe7 15.
Rab1 Nd7 16. Bc1 Kh8 17. Ba3 e5 18. Qc2 e4 19. fxe4 fxe4 20. Be2 Rxf1+ 21. Rxf1
Rf8 22. Rxf8+ Qxf8 23. Bg4 Nf6 24. Be2 Bc6 25. Bd1 Qf7 26. Qe2 Bd7 27. c5 dxc5
28. dxc5 Qd5 29. cxb6 cxb6 30. c4 Qd3 31. Qxd3 exd3 32. c5 Nd5 33. Kf2 bxc5 34.
Bxc5 Nc3 35. Bf3 d2 36. Bb6 d1=Q 37. Bxd1 Nxd1+ 38. Ke1 Nc3 39. Bxa5 Nxa4 40.
Kf2 Bc6 41. h4 Kg8 42. g4 Kf7 43. Kg3 Ke6 44. Kf4 Nc5 45. Bc3 g6 46. h5 Ne4 47.
hxg6 hxg6 48. Bb4 g5+ 49. Kf3 Kd5 50. Be7 Kc4 51. Bxg5 Nxg5+ 52. Kf4 Ne4 53.
Ke5 Kd3 54. g5 Nxg5 55. e4 Nxe4 56. Kf5 Kd4 57. Ke6 Nc5+ 58. Kf5 Be4+ 59. Kf6
Kd5 60. Ke7 Ke5 61. Kf7 Bf5 62. Kg7 Ke6 63. Kf8 Nd7+ 64. Kg7 Ne5 65. Kh8 Kf6
66. Kg8 Nf7 67. Kf8 Bh7 68. Ke8 Ne5 69. Kd8 Ke6 70. Kc7 Nd7 71. Kc6 Bd3 72. Kc7
Bb5 73. Kd8 Nf6 74. Kc7 Nd5+ 75. Kd8 Kf7 76. Kc8 Ke7 77. Kb7 Kd7 78. Kb8 Ba6
79. Ka7 Bc8 80. Kb8 Ne7 0-1

Black made it look easy; well done.

Kevin Bonham
23-06-2007, 02:29 AM
Wright's ACF rating was below 2000 at the time. To watch a guy of around my own rating convert that so smoothly against an IM (who probably would have thought himself a chance of getting away with a draw) was quite impressive.

Former Tasmanian champion Julian Steward once reached a K+2P vs K ending against a sub-1000 strength junior in a rated tournament game. He knighted one pawn, bishoped the other and demonstrated the mate.

Bereaved
23-06-2007, 05:54 PM
Hello everyone,

Have only had to do this once in a tournament game also. Game is a bit scrappy, and I wasted a couple of tempi, but managed to do the mate pretty much by the book.


Date: 2004
White: Another
Black: Macavity
Result: 0-1
ECO: A43
BlackElo: 1979
PlyCount: 202

1. d4 c5 2. e3 Nf6 3. f4 e6 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. c3 Qc7 8. Nbd2
cxd4 9. exd4 Qxf4 10. Ne4 Qc7 11. Nxf6+ Bxf6 12. Bxh7+ Kxh7 13. Ng5+ Bxg5 14.
Qh5+ Kg8 15. Bxg5 Qa5 16. Rf3 f6 17. Raf1 Ne7 18. b4 Qd5 19. g4 d6 20. c4 Qxd4+
21. Be3 Qe5 22. g5 Bd7 23. Rh3 Qe4 24. gxf6 Qg6+ 25. Qxg6 Nxg6 26. Rg3 Kf7 27.
fxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rd1 Rad8 29. Rxd6 Bc8 30. Rxd8 Rxd8 31. h4 Kh7 32. h5 Ne7 33.
Bxa7 Rd1+ 34. Kh2 Rd2+ 35. Rg2 Rxg2+ 36. Kxg2 Nc6 37. Bc5 Ne5 38. Bf8 Nxc4 39.
Kf3 Bd7 40. Ke4 Bc6+ 41. Kd4 Bd5 42. a4 Nb6 43. a5 Nd7 44. Bd6 Kh6 45. b5 Kxh5
46. a6 bxa6 47. bxa6 Kg4 48. a7 Kf3 49. Bb8 Ke2 50. Kc3 Ke3 51. Kb4 Kd4 52. Kb5
e5 53. Ka6 e4 54. Bf4 e3 55. Bxe3+ Kxe3 56. Ka5 Kd4 57. Kb5 Bb7 58. Kb4 Kd5 59.
Kb5 Kd6 60. Ka4 Kc6 61. Ka5 Kc5 62. Ka4 Kb6 63. a8=N+ Bxa8 64. Kb4 Bd5 65. Kc3
Kc5 66. Kd3 Ne5+ 67. Kc3 Bf3 68. Kc2 Kd4 69. Kb3 Nd3 70. Kc2 Nc5 71. Kd2 Nb3+
72. Kc2 Kc4 73. Kb2 Be4 74. Ka3 Bb1 75. Kb2 Bd3 76. Ka3 Kc3 77. Ka4 Bc4 78. Ka3
Na5 79. Ka4 Nc6 80. Ka3 Bb5 81. Ka2 Nb4+ 82. Ka3 Nc2+ 83. Ka2 Bc4+ 84. Kb1 Bb3
85. Kc1 Ba2 86. Kd1 Nd4 87. Ke1 Kd3 88. Kf2 Ne2 89. Kf3 Be6 90. Kf2 Bd5 91. Kf1
Ke3 92. Ke1 Bb3 93. Kf1 Nf4 94. Ke1 Ng2+ 95. Kf1 Kf3 96. Kg1 Kg3 97. Kf1 Bc4+
98. Kg1 Nf4 99. Kh1 Be2 100. Kg1 Nh3+ 101. Kh1 Bf3# 0-1



Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Capablanca-Fan
23-06-2007, 06:22 PM
Have only had to do this once in a tournament game also. Game is a bit scrappy, and I wasted a couple of tempi, but managed to do the mate pretty much by the book.


Date: 2004
White: Another
Black: Macavity
Result: 0-1
ECO: A43
BlackElo: 1979
PlyCount: 202

1. d4 c5 2. e3 Nf6 3. f4 e6 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. c3 Qc7 8. Nbd2
cxd4 9. exd4 Qxf4 10. Ne4 Qc7 11. Nxf6+ Bxf6 12. Bxh7+ Kxh7 13. Ng5+ Bxg5 14.
Qh5+ Kg8 15. Bxg5 Qa5 16. Rf3 f6 17. Raf1 Ne7 18. b4 Qd5 19. g4 d6 20. c4 Qxd4+
21. Be3 Qe5 22. g5 Bd7 23. Rh3 Qe4 24. gxf6 Qg6+ 25. Qxg6 Nxg6 26. Rg3 Kf7 27.
fxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rd1 Rad8 29. Rxd6 Bc8 30. Rxd8 Rxd8 31. h4 Kh7 32. h5 Ne7 33.
Bxa7 Rd1+ 34. Kh2 Rd2+ 35. Rg2 Rxg2+ 36. Kxg2 Nc6 37. Bc5 Ne5 38. Bf8 Nxc4 39.
Kf3 Bd7 40. Ke4 Bc6+ 41. Kd4 Bd5 42. a4 Nb6 43. a5 Nd7 44. Bd6 Kh6 45. b5 Kxh5
46. a6 bxa6 47. bxa6 Kg4 48. a7 Kf3 49. Bb8 Ke2 50. Kc3 Ke3 51. Kb4 Kd4 52. Kb5
e5 53. Ka6 e4 54. Bf4 e3 55. Bxe3+ Kxe3 56. Ka5 Kd4 57. Kb5 Bb7 58. Kb4 Kd5 59.
Kb5 Kd6 60. Ka4 Kc6 61. Ka5 Kc5 62. Ka4 Kb6 63. a8=N+ Bxa8 64. Kb4 Bd5 65. Kc3
Kc5 66. Kd3 Ne5+ 67. Kc3 Bf3 68. Kc2 Kd4 69. Kb3 Nd3 70. Kc2 Nc5 71. Kd2 Nb3+
72. Kc2 Kc4 73. Kb2 Be4 74. Ka3 Bb1 75. Kb2 Bd3 76. Ka3 Kc3 77. Ka4 Bc4 78. Ka3
Na5 79. Ka4 Nc6 80. Ka3 Bb5 81. Ka2 Nb4+ 82. Ka3 Nc2+ 83. Ka2 Bc4+ 84. Kb1 Bb3
85. Kc1 Ba2 86. Kd1 Nd4 87. Ke1 Kd3 88. Kf2 Ne2 89. Kf3 Be6 90. Kf2 Bd5 91. Kf1
Ke3 92. Ke1 Bb3 93. Kf1 Nf4 94. Ke1 Ng2+ 95. Kf1 Kf3 96. Kg1 Kg3 97. Kf1 Bc4+
98. Kg1 Nf4 99. Kh1 Be2 100. Kg1 Nh3+ 101. Kh1 Bf3# 0-1

May not have been the fastest, but it was good strategy to maneuvre into a known position and be sure of winning. Earlier on, was there any reason not to play 14... Bh6? White's Stonewall was far too stereotyped, and useless when Black hasn't played d5 to give White an e5 outpost.

Bereaved
23-06-2007, 09:05 PM
May not have been the fastest, but it was good strategy to maneuvre into a known position and be sure of winning. Earlier on, was there any reason not to play 14... Bh6? White's Stonewall was far too stereotyped, and useless when Black hasn't played d5 to give White an e5 outpost.

Jono, the reason to not play 14...Bh6 was that it did not seem that good at the board, and seemed to lead to something like perpetual something the silicon monster agrees with.

Fritz 8 gives a line something like

(14... Bh6 15. Rf6 gxf6 16. Qxh6+ Kg8 17. Bg5 fxg5 18. Qxg5+) with perpetual

I seem to recall that I had seen lines like 14...Bh6 15.Bxh6 gxh6 16.Rxf7+ Rxf7 17.Qxf7+ and thought perpetual at the time, so had avoided such lines. As it turns out such lines are rubbish as after 15.Bxh6 Qa5 will transpose to the game, or similar, and 15...gxh6?? loses quickly to 16.Rf6 and I'm stuffed

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Kevin Bonham
23-06-2007, 09:39 PM
At a high level of play KBN vs K happens about one game in 5000. I wonder if it is more or less likely than that or about the same at club level.

eclectic
23-06-2007, 09:47 PM
At a high level of play KBN vs K happens about one game in 5000. I wonder if it is more or less likely than that or about the same at club level.

i'd guess less as i doubt club level players would actively look for such an ending; queens and rooks as pieces would tend to hold more interest especially to juniors

Garvinator
23-06-2007, 09:50 PM
i'd guess less as i doubt club level players would actively look for such an ending; queens and rooks as pieces would tend to hold more interest especially to juniors
I would say it is about the same, but occurs for different reasons.

In a top class game, the 'losing' player would resign before reaching the BN ending, because they 'know' that their opponent knows the winning patterns.

In lower class games, the 'losing' player will attempt to get a BN ending, in the hope that the 'winning' player doesnt know how to do it in less than 50 moves.

eclectic
23-06-2007, 09:53 PM
I would say it is about the same, but occurs for different reasons.

In a top class game, the 'losing' player would resign before reaching the BN ending, because they 'know' that their opponent knows the winning patterns.

In lower class games, the 'losing' player will attempt to get a BN ending, in the hope that the 'winning' player doesnt know how to do it in less than 50 moves.

almost agreed except i would say in top level chess the losing player would not resign given the ending happens so rarely that it is worth putting the winning player to the test

Capablanca-Fan
23-06-2007, 10:10 PM
almost agreed except i would say in top level chess the losing player would not resign given the ending happens so rarely that it is worth putting the winning player to the test
However, in some of the games above, the losing player trusted his opponent to win.

Kevin Bonham
23-06-2007, 11:03 PM
In a top class game, the 'losing' player would resign before reaching the BN ending, because they 'know' that their opponent knows the winning patterns.

I've got databased examples of 2300s-rated players failing to win it. I think I heard of a case of a GM messing it up too.


In lower class games, the 'losing' player will attempt to get a BN ending, in the hope that the 'winning' player doesnt know how to do it in less than 50 moves.

As I did in the rapidplay game I mentioned.

best-chess
09-07-2007, 08:08 AM
that is so professional, i like the idea of the interactivity

thanks jono :)

Southpaw Jim
09-07-2007, 08:48 AM
I recently bought Silman's new book on endgame technique - in it, he claims that he's faced KBN v K once in his entire career, and IM John Donaldson has never seen it. On this basis, he deliberately and openly omits KBN v K from the book entirely!

Capablanca-Fan
09-07-2007, 09:01 AM
I must disagree with Silman here though. Capablanca's Chess Fundamentals taught the technique. It is a good exercise in cooperation of the pieces.

I could understand omitting K+3N, but that is easier anyway. Also, K+3N dominate K+N. Once I had to win 2NvP in an Internet blitz game (increment IIRC), and that comes up every so often.

Vlad
03-08-2007, 10:29 PM
I have just taught Anton how to mate with N and B. He managed to mate me 3 times in a row. Still a little bit shaky at the moment, but believe me or not in a week time he will be comfortably mating with less than 2 minutes on his clocks. Kevin, you want a bet that 6-year-old can mate you with N and B in less than 2 minutes?:)

Capablanca-Fan
03-08-2007, 11:44 PM
I have just taught Anton how to mate with N and B. He managed to mate me 3 times in a row. Still a little bit shaky at the moment, but believe me or not in a week time he will be comfortably mating with less than 2 minutes on his clocks. Kevin, you want a bet that 6-year-old can mate you with N and B in less than 2 minutes?:)
That's impressive! Most 6yos would have trouble with K+QvK.

Vlad
07-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Anton just managed to beat (K+N+B vs K) a 2450 IM. Anton had only 5 minutes on his clocks. Still needs some practise but already not too bad. Not many 2000 players can do that. The IM was really impressed.

Then I had a go against him (K+N+B vs K). The first time it took me 1 minute. The second time I finished the game in 30 seconds. I wander if anybody can do that in less than 15 seconds?:)

pax
07-08-2007, 03:30 PM
Anton just managed to beat (K+N+B vs K) a 2450 IM. Anton had only 5 minutes on his clocks. Still needs some practise but already not too bad. Not many 2000 players can do that. The IM was really impressed.

Then I had a go against him (K+N+B vs K). The first time it took me 1 minute. The second time I finished the game in 30 seconds. I wander if anybody can do that in less than 15 seconds?:)
Wow! That is mightily impressive.

My sole experience of KNB vs K was long ago as a junior. A prominent junior arbiter (and coach) at the time asserted that KNB vs K was a draw (I think in the context of a game that nearly ended up in it). I told him he was wrong, and he didn't believe me. In order to persuade him I had to go away and learn it and then proceeded to beat him with it a few times.

In hindsight, it is possible that he only said it was a draw in order to induce me to learn it (if so, smart psychology), but I think he genuinely believed it at the time..

Igor_Goldenberg
07-08-2007, 04:28 PM
My sole experience of KNB vs K was long ago as a junior. A prominent junior arbiter (and coach) at the time asserted that KNB vs K was a draw.
He is probably right in 50% of the cases:D

Igor_Goldenberg
07-08-2007, 04:46 PM
There are three much more difficult endgames where even the strongest grandmasters stumble:
KR v KN
KRN v KR
KRB v KR

some others are also quite remarkable, like KBB vKN, KNN vKp, KQp v KQ, etc.

Capablanca-Fan
07-08-2007, 05:14 PM
I saw a video by IM (now GM) Jesse Kraai demonstrating two top-10 GMs mishandling KQ v KR, and allowing a draw IIRC. The main thing the stronger side missed was the win in this position (or symmetry-related variants):



1. Qe4! Kg8 2. Kg6 Rg7+ 3. Kh6 winning quickly.

Kevin Bonham
07-08-2007, 09:20 PM
I have had KQ vs KR in a tournament game twice! First time with no increment I lost on time while reaching out to play mate in one and blew $150. Second time I had a ten-second increment and won.

I had a drawn KR vs KN once in which the defender at one point for one move strayed into a lost position but I missed the win, $160 lost there.

I failed to win KRBP (rooks pawn) vs KR in a simul vs GM Johansen a very long time ago.

Garvinator
07-08-2007, 09:23 PM
During the 2007 Peninsula Open, Peter Froehlich had KQ v KR against Jacob Edwards (2065 acf) in a 90/10 game.

With both players surfing the increment, Peter managed to drop his queen cold.

It certainly deserved to be in the pits/shockers thread. I was not actually present for this event, but was playing in the tournament.

Kevin Bonham
07-08-2007, 09:28 PM
With both players surfing the increment, Peter managed to drop his queen cold.

Ouch.

Capablanca-Fan
07-08-2007, 11:04 PM
During the 2007 Peninsula Open, Peter Froehlich had KQ v KR against Jacob Edwards (2065 acf) in a 90/10 game.

With both players surfing the increment, Peter managed to drop his queen cold.

It certainly deserved to be in the pits/shockers thread. I was not actually present for this event, but was playing in the tournament.
Yeah, saw that. Peter didn't realise that he had put his Q en prise, but the arbiter saw it too.

Capablanca-Fan
07-08-2007, 11:10 PM
I have had KQ vs KR in a tournament game twice! First time with no increment I lost on time while reaching out to play mate in one and blew $150. Second time I had a ten-second increment and won.

I had a drawn KR vs KN once in which the defender at one point for one move strayed into a lost position but I missed the win, $160 lost there.

I failed to win KRBP (rooks pawn) vs KR in a simul vs GM Johansen a very long time ago.
Bummer. Even with the B and RP of the wrong coloured queening square, it should be a win with Rs on, e.g. Capablanca vs Tarrasch, St. Petersburg 1914 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272218).

Kevin Bonham
08-08-2007, 12:15 AM
Bummer. Even with the B and RP of the wrong coloured queening square, it should be a win with Rs on, e.g. Capablanca vs Tarrasch, St. Petersburg 1914 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272218).

It was wrong-coloured square and my error was to push the pawn too far, ending up having to give it up, and then I couldn't win the KRB vs KR that resulted. (He was down for another couple of simuls the next year and I managed a win in one of those. These were in the days when I was strong-ish but not really an outright local tournament threat, probably about 1800 strength in today's terms.)

Kevin Bonham
14-08-2007, 12:27 AM
And then there's KRR vs KRN, but how often would you see that in a game of any kind? (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=154929)

Adamski
08-10-2008, 09:38 PM
At a high level of play KBN vs K happens about one game in 5000. I wonder if it is more or less likely than that or about the same at club level.I have played 800 + tournament games since I started playing at age 11 and have only once had the KBN v K ending - last night, 139 moves and I was lucky to win it. See Dejan Antic coaching at Manly thread. (Too tired to paste the link in - someone else can! Ta!)

Capablanca-Fan
08-10-2008, 10:04 PM
I have played 800 + tournament games since I started playing at age 11 and have only once had the KBN v K ending - last night, 139 moves and I was lucky to win it. See Dejan Antic coaching at Manly thread (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=211320#post211320). (Too tired to paste the link in - someone else can! Ta!)
Done.

Kevin Bonham
09-10-2008, 12:08 AM
I mentioned above there was an instance of a GM failing to win KBN v K. This is it:

Kempinski,Robert (2498) - Epishin,Vladimir (2567) [E60]
Bundesliga 0001 Germany (5.3), 07.01.2001

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.b4 b6 6.Bb2 d6 7.Be2 c5 8.b5 Bb7 9.0-0 e6 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.a4 a5 12.bxa6 Rxa6 13.Qc2 Ra8 14.Rfc1 Re8 15.Ne1 cxd4 16.exd4 e5 17.d5 Nc5 18.Nd3 Nxd3 19.Bxd3 Rc8 20.Qb1 Ba6 21.Bf1 Bh6 22.Bc3 Rc5 23.Qb2 Bc8 24.Re1 Bf5 25.a5 bxa5 26.Nb3 Rc8 27.Nxa5 Bd7 28.Bb4 Bf8 29.Qa3 Ra8 30.Qc3 Qb6 31.g3 Reb8 32.Reb1 Qc7 33.Qe1 Bf5 34.Rb2 Bd7 35.h3 Rb6 36.Bc3 Rxb2 37.Bxb2 h5 38.Bg2 Qc5 39.Bc3 Rb8 40.Rb1 Rxb1 41.Qxb1 Bf5 42.Qb4 Qc8 43.h4 Be4 44.Bd2 Qg4 45.Qb3 Qe2 46.Qe3 Qd1+ 47.Qe1 Qc2 48.f3 Bd3 49.Qc1 Qa2 50.Qc3 e4 51.Nb3 Bg7 52.fxe4 Qb1+ 53.Nc1 Nxe4 54.Qxd3 Qxd3 55.Nxd3 Nxd2 56.c5 Bd4+ 57.Kh2 Bxc5 58.Kh3 Be3 59.g4 hxg4+ 60.Kxg4 Kg7 61.Kg3 Kh6 62.Bh3 f5 63.Bg2 Bd4 64.Kh3 Kg7 65.Ne1 Bf2 66.Nf3 Nc4 67.Ng5 Kf6 68.Nh7+ Kg7 69.Ng5 Ne5 70.Bf1 Be3 71.Ne6+ Kf6 72.Be2 Bf2 73.Ng5 Be3 74.Ne6 Bh6 75.Nd4 Bc1 76.Kg3 Bd2 77.Kh3 Be3 78.Nc6 Nd7 79.Bf3 Bf2 80.Nd8 Nc5 81.Bg2 Be1 82.Bf3 Ba5 83.Nc6 Bb6 84.Kg3 Nb3 85.Bg2 Nd2 86.Bh1 Nf1+ 87.Kh3 Bc5 88.Bf3 Nd2 89.Bg2 Bf2 90.Nd8 Nc4 91.Nc6 Ne3 92.Bf3 Be1 93.Bh1 Nd1 94.Bf3 Nf2+ 95.Kg2 Nd3 96.h5 g5 97.Bd1 Nf4+ 98.Kf1 Bc3 99.h6 Nxd5 100.Bb3 Ne3+ 101.Ke2 f4 102.Kd3 Bb2 103.h7 Kg7 104.Bg8 Bf6 105.Ke4 d5+ 106.Kf3 Kh8 107.Nb4 d4 108.Nd3 Nf5 109.Ke4 Ne7 110.Bc4 Kxh7 111.Nxf4 gxf4 112.Kxf4 Kg7 113.Kg4 Nc6 114.Kf5 Bh4 115.Ke4 Bf2 116.Bb5 Nb4 117.Bc4 Kf6 118.Be2 Ke6 119.Bc4+ Kd6 120.Be2 Kc5 121.Bf1 Nc6 122.Be2 Kb4 123.Bf1 Kc3 124.Bb5 Nb4 125.Bf1 d3 126.Bxd3 Nxd3 127.Kf3 Bc5 128.Ke4 Kc4 129.Kf5 Kd5 130.Kf6 Bd6 131.Kf7 Ne5+ 132.Ke8 Ke6 133.Kd8 Nf7+ 134.Kc8 Kd5 135.Kb7 Kc5 136.Ka6 Bc7 137.Kb7 Kd6 138.Ka6 Kc6 139.Ka7 Nd6 140.Ka8 Bd8 141.Ka7 Kb5 142.Kb8 Kb6 143.Ka8 Nb7 144.Kb8 Bc7+ 145.Ka8 Kc6 146.Ka7 Nc5 147.Ka8 Nd7 148.Ka7 Nb6 149.Ka6 Bb8 150.Ka5 Kc5 151.Ka6 Bd6 152.Kb7 Kb5 153.Ka7 Kc6 154.Ka6 Bb8 155.Ka5 Nd5 156.Ka6 Bc7 157.Ka7 Bb6+ 158.Kb8 Bc5 159.Ka8 Nc7+ 160.Kb8 Nb5 161.Ka8 Kb6 162.Kb8 Na7 163.Ka8 Ka6 164.Kb8 Bb6 165.Ka8 Nb5 166.Kb8 Nd6 167.Ka8 Kb5 168.Kb8 Kc6 169.Ka8 Bc7 170.Ka7 Nb7 171.Ka8 Nc5 172.Ka7 Bb6+ 173.Ka8 Bc7 174.Ka7 Nd7 175.Ka8 Bd6 176.Ka7 Nb6 177.Ka6 Bb8 178.Ka5 Bc7 179.Ka6 Nc8 ˝-˝

Adamski
09-10-2008, 05:21 AM
Wow - 179 moves too!

Adamski
09-10-2008, 09:50 AM
In a top class game, the 'losing' player would resign before reaching the BN ending, because they 'know' that their opponent knows the winning patterns.

In lower class games, the 'losing' player will attempt to get a BN ending, in the hope that the 'winning' player doesnt know how to do it in less than 50 moves.Yes!

For those who don't know (if any): The idea is not to check the King but to restrict the squares on which he can move until mate is given in the corner where the King is forced onto the Bishop's colour square. A good place for the N is diagonally behind the B so that between the 2 of them and the K they restrict the opposing K's moves severely. In my 139 move game I had to start with N on h7 (where it took P) so it took me many moves to achieve such things and several times his King had choices of which way to run...

My 139 moves was my longest ever tournament game too.

Desmond
09-10-2008, 10:13 AM
Thanks for the game, Kevin. That is truly amazing for a GM to not convert the win.

Capablanca-Fan
09-10-2008, 10:47 AM
I mentioned above there was an instance of a GM failing to win KBN v K. This is it:

Kempinski,Robert (2498) - Epishin,Vladimir (2567) [E60]
Bundesliga 0001 Germany (5.3), 07.01.2001

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.b4 b6 6.Bb2 d6 7.Be2 c5 8.b5 Bb7 9.0-0 e6 10.Nbd2 Nbd7 11.a4 a5 12.bxa6 Rxa6 13.Qc2 Ra8 14.Rfc1 Re8 15.Ne1 cxd4 16.exd4 e5 17.d5 Nc5 18.Nd3 Nxd3 19.Bxd3 Rc8 20.Qb1 Ba6 21.Bf1 Bh6 22.Bc3 Rc5 23.Qb2 Bc8 24.Re1 Bf5 25.a5 bxa5 26.Nb3 Rc8 27.Nxa5 Bd7 28.Bb4 Bf8 29.Qa3 Ra8 30.Qc3 Qb6 31.g3 Reb8 32.Reb1 Qc7 33.Qe1 Bf5 34.Rb2 Bd7 35.h3 Rb6 36.Bc3 Rxb2 37.Bxb2 h5 38.Bg2 Qc5 39.Bc3 Rb8 40.Rb1 Rxb1 41.Qxb1 Bf5 42.Qb4 Qc8 43.h4 Be4 44.Bd2 Qg4 45.Qb3 Qe2 46.Qe3 Qd1+ 47.Qe1 Qc2 48.f3 Bd3 49.Qc1 Qa2 50.Qc3 e4 51.Nb3 Bg7 52.fxe4 Qb1+ 53.Nc1 Nxe4 54.Qxd3 Qxd3 55.Nxd3 Nxd2 56.c5 Bd4+ 57.Kh2 Bxc5 58.Kh3 Be3 59.g4 hxg4+ 60.Kxg4 Kg7 61.Kg3 Kh6 62.Bh3 f5 63.Bg2 Bd4 64.Kh3 Kg7 65.Ne1 Bf2 66.Nf3 Nc4 67.Ng5 Kf6 68.Nh7+ Kg7 69.Ng5 Ne5 70.Bf1 Be3 71.Ne6+ Kf6 72.Be2 Bf2 73.Ng5 Be3 74.Ne6 Bh6 75.Nd4 Bc1 76.Kg3 Bd2 77.Kh3 Be3 78.Nc6 Nd7 79.Bf3 Bf2 80.Nd8 Nc5 81.Bg2 Be1 82.Bf3 Ba5 83.Nc6 Bb6 84.Kg3 Nb3 85.Bg2 Nd2 86.Bh1 Nf1+ 87.Kh3 Bc5 88.Bf3 Nd2 89.Bg2 Bf2 90.Nd8 Nc4 91.Nc6 Ne3 92.Bf3 Be1 93.Bh1 Nd1 94.Bf3 Nf2+ 95.Kg2 Nd3 96.h5 g5 97.Bd1 Nf4+ 98.Kf1 Bc3 99.h6 Nxd5 100.Bb3 Ne3+ 101.Ke2 f4 102.Kd3 Bb2 103.h7 Kg7 104.Bg8 Bf6 105.Ke4 d5+ 106.Kf3 Kh8 107.Nb4 d4 108.Nd3 Nf5 109.Ke4 Ne7 110.Bc4 Kxh7 111.Nxf4 gxf4 112.Kxf4 Kg7 113.Kg4 Nc6 114.Kf5 Bh4 115.Ke4 Bf2 116.Bb5 Nb4 117.Bc4 Kf6 118.Be2 Ke6 119.Bc4+ Kd6 120.Be2 Kc5 121.Bf1 Nc6 122.Be2 Kb4 123.Bf1 Kc3 124.Bb5 Nb4 125.Bf1 d3 126.Bxd3 Nxd3 127.Kf3 Bc5 128.Ke4 Kc4 129.Kf5 Kd5 130.Kf6 Bd6 131.Kf7 Ne5+ 132.Ke8 Ke6 133.Kd8 Nf7+ 134.Kc8 Kd5 135.Kb7 Kc5 136.Ka6 Bc7 137.Kb7 Kd6 138.Ka6 Kc6 139.Ka7 Nd6 140.Ka8 Bd8 141.Ka7 Kb5 142.Kb8 Kb6 143.Ka8 Nb7 144.Kb8 Bc7+ 145.Ka8 Kc6 146.Ka7 Nc5 147.Ka8 Nd7 148.Ka7 Nb6 149.Ka6 Bb8 150.Ka5 Kc5 151.Ka6 Bd6 152.Kb7 Kb5 153.Ka7 Kc6 154.Ka6 Bb8 155.Ka5 Nd5 156.Ka6 Bc7 157.Ka7 Bb6+ 158.Kb8 Bc5 159.Ka8 Nc7+ 160.Kb8 Nb5 161.Ka8 Kb6 162.Kb8 Na7 163.Ka8 Ka6 164.Kb8 Bb6 165.Ka8 Nb5 166.Kb8 Nd6 167.Ka8 Kb5 168.Kb8 Kc6 169.Ka8 Bc7 170.Ka7 Nb7 171.Ka8 Nc5 172.Ka7 Bb6+ 173.Ka8 Bc7 174.Ka7 Nd7 175.Ka8 Bd6 176.Ka7 Nb6 177.Ka6 Bb8 178.Ka5 Bc7 179.Ka6 Nc8 ˝-˝

Good grief, this was a tedious game. White made several unforced errors around in the 50s losing Ps, then allowed two connected passed Ps on move 96. White was even cooperative in allowing his K to retreat to the last rank without a fight only 6 moves after the last capture. Then Black looked as though he was trying to mate White in the wrong corner, then he forgot the standard winning manoeuvre with 150... Nd5. He got it right on move 155, then White was remarkably cooperative with 151. Ka6 which loses quicker than Ka4. But Black then failed to find 156... Nb4+. Once again he tried in vain to win in the wrong corner, and wasn't even close when the 50 move rule was called — a few moves late at that.

Phil Bourke
10-10-2008, 08:09 AM
....and wasn't even close when the 50 move rule was called — a few moves late at that.
Black actually produced stalemate with 179....Nc8.

I bet Epishin can deliver the mate now :) He would have had nightmares about this game!

MichaelBaron
10-10-2008, 01:38 PM
I never ever had to mate with B+N. But my king was mated twice: By Caoili and by Rujevic.

Capablanca-Fan
10-10-2008, 02:46 PM
Black actually produced stalemate with 179....Nc8.
So he did; I didn't even look that far.


I bet Epishin can deliver the mate now :) He would have had nightmares about this game!
IIRC Botvinnik thought that GM who couldn't mate with BN should be stripped of his title. Another way of looking at it is that this knowledge is not a prerequisite for GM strength :( All the same, many other GMs will be very annoyed, knowing that many more people will play out the mate rather than resign because "surely a GM knows the technique so there is no point wasting his time and mine."

Miranda
11-10-2008, 10:08 PM
I think if I had KNB vs K I would play it out and hope for the best...it's too hard to work it out

Garvinator
11-10-2008, 11:09 PM
I think if I had KNB vs K I would play it out and hope for the best...it's too hard to work it out
Of course in club chess I do not think anyone should resign when having the king. If for no other reason than to watch how the opponent actually does mate you in a real game.

Capablanca-Fan
18-10-2008, 05:00 PM
Eclectic pointed out the following video explaining a different method to the Philidor technique explained in most endgame books: the Three Triangle method of Daniel Deletang. I don't know if it's quicker, but there are fewer rules to learn.
PWZ7h2yrJME

CameronD
18-10-2008, 05:13 PM
Eclectic pointed out the following video explaining a different method to the Philidor technique explained in most endgame books: the Three Triangle method of Daniel Deletang. I don't know if it's quicker, but there are fewer rules to learn.
PWZ7h2yrJME

With the philidor system I have around a 30% success rate. After viewing this twice, I'm mating fritz every time, its really simple and I could do it at 10 seconds a move with ease.

Capablanca-Fan
14-03-2015, 03:39 AM
Another illustration of the Deletang triangles method, which seems preferable to learn:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3EqM17jvOc

ER
14-03-2015, 06:38 AM
Another illustration of the Deletang triangles method, which seems preferable to learn:

[Ed. Watch video in original post]

Thanks for sharing Capablanca-Fan!


I never ever had to mate with B+N. But my king was mated twice: By Caoili and by Rujevic.

Michael, I assume that if the situation occurred in your games you would know how to do it. I can't imagine any junior who reached Master level in the USSR not being able to know how to check-mate with Bishop and Knight versus King!

BTW I am not sure if you achieved the FM title in the USSR or here, however, I am sure that when you arrived in Australia you were already a very strong player!

Capablanca-Fan
14-03-2015, 09:25 AM
Thanks for sharing Capablanca-Fan!
Welcome!


Michael, I assume that if the situation occurred in your games you would know how to do it. I can't imagine any junior who reached Master level in the USSR not being able to know how to check-mate with Bishop and Knight versus King!
Don't count on it. I can't speak for MB of course, but Vladimir Epishin, born in Leningrad in 1965 and became a GM in 1990, both in Soviet times, failed miserably against Robert Kempinski in 2001 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1533865). The then Women's World Champion, Anna Ushenina, also didn't quite understand the Philidor method, and let Olga Girya off the hook in an important game in 2013 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1716505). She was born in 1985, so was a child when the Evil Empire broke up.

The Soviets erred by teaching the difficult Philidor method, which even strong players have evidently mishandled, rather than the more straightforward Deletang method.

antichrist
14-03-2015, 11:16 AM
Welcome!


Don't count on it. I can't speak for MB of course, but Vladimir Epishin, born in Leningrad in 1965 and became a GM in 1990, both in Soviet times, failed miserably against Robert Kempinski in 2001 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1533865). The then Women's World Champion, Anna Ushenina, also didn't quite understand the Philidor method, and let Olga Girya off the hook in an important game in 2013 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1716505). She was born in 1985, so was a child when the Evil Empire broke up.

The Soviets erred by teaching the difficult Philidor method, which even strong players have evidently mishandled, rather than the more straightforward Deletang method.

As LLoyd Fell knight & bishop mate expert would rave - young kids today know nothing

FM_Bill
14-03-2015, 04:51 PM
A few decades ago in the "Chess in Australia" there was an article on how to mate with N+B if you didn't know where the king was (i.e by playing kriegspiel)

The technique was to find the king with checks, then making successively smaller cordons
(Like trapping the king in a box with the queen.)

ER
14-03-2015, 07:08 PM
Welcome!


Don't count on it. I can't speak for MB of course, but Vladimir Epishin, born in Leningrad in 1965 and became a GM in 1990, both in Soviet times, failed miserably against Robert Kempinski in 2001 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1533865). The then Women's World Champion, Anna Ushenina, also didn't quite understand the Philidor method, and let Olga Girya off the hook in an important game in 2013 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1716505). She was born in 1985, so was a child when the Evil Empire broke up.

The Soviets erred by teaching the difficult Philidor method, which even strong players have evidently mishandled, rather than the more straightforward Deletang method.

Interesting (and enlightening) information. I was going along the common sayings of the "every Russian school boy knows ..." or "in every Russian village you will find master strength players" type.
I assumed that knowledge of stratagems or methods to achieve certain goals such as the B+N vs lone King theme, was sort of common knowledge amongst the products of the Soviet Chess system. Obviously I was wrong!

BTW my knowledge of the particular position was to create a Kg5, Nc3, Be3 cordon around the King on e5, restrict him to the edge of the board and then try to force him to the right corner (a1 or h8 in this case) with that W method. Sometimes I managed to do it but never under 50 moves! Under 100 more likely!

FM_Bill
15-03-2015, 11:09 AM
Sometimes I managed to do it but never under 50 moves! Under 100 more likely!

Yes, its a tough ending! In the bad old days, beginners books often included this ending. I wonder why many people gave up chess as being too hard, as a result.

Capablanca-Fan
15-03-2015, 12:03 PM
Interesting (and enlightening) information. I was going along the common sayings of the "every Russian school boy knows ..." or "in every Russian village you will find master strength players" type.
I assumed that knowledge of stratagems or methods to achieve certain goals such as the B+N vs lone King theme, was sort of common knowledge amongst the products of the Soviet Chess system. Obviously I was wrong!
Yes, GM Alex Yermolinsky said that he knew lots of bad players, and most of them were in his hometown of the USSR. My own experience of Soviet Chess is limited to Sukhumi in Abkhazia, then a reluctant part of Soviet Georgia. There were a couple of master-strength players, but the next group down were wild attackers rather than technicians. However, chess boards could be seen almost everywhere, even on the beach (it is on the northern coast of the Black Sea). Also, the strong Russian emigrés I've known seem to have good positional understanding.


BTW my knowledge of the particular position was to create a Kg5, Nc3, Be3 cordon around the King on e5, restrict him to the edge of the board and then try to force him to the right corner (a1 or h8 in this case) with that W method. Sometimes I managed to do it but never under 50 moves! Under 100 more likely!
Well, that video I posted might help. Cameron D said he found that the Deletang ‘Triangles’ method almost foolproof against his computer.

ER
16-03-2015, 09:27 AM
Well, that video I posted might help...

It definitely does. I have just started studying it and I find it most interesting and helpful! I was successful in 2 times out of ten (without taking moves back) so far.
I used the "take back" method not in order to achieve the mate but to understand where I went wrong previously! Thanks again!


Yes, its a tough ending! In the bad old days, beginners books often included this ending. I wonder why many people gave up chess as being too hard, as a result.


I remember those beginners books' approach to (i) understand (ii) solve the K+B+N vs K mate!
They did not help much, since most of the stuff they contained was based on "he goes here, you go there" type of "analysis"! :)
They weren't bad in other aspects though!
The only book containing some sort of a systematic approach was Lasker's Manual of Chess which introduced the cordon ideas!
What's your opinion about the Deletang Triangles method suggested by Capablanca - Fan Bill?

MichaelBaron
16-03-2015, 10:17 AM
The hardest part is to mate within 50 moves. It allows 2-3 inaccuracies only

FM_Bill
16-03-2015, 10:30 AM
What's your opinion about the Deletang Triangles method suggested by Capablanca - Fan Bill?
I like the idea, it seems quite practical. Having said that, I know the old method but not the triangles method.

Max Fuller said he could mate with B+N with 1 minute on the clock (no increment).

Capablanca-Fan
11-10-2016, 02:36 AM
This endgame was reached in the recent Isle of Man Open by the world's top female player in:

Elisabeth Paehtz vs Yifan Hou (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1841195)
Isle of Man Open (2016) · Sicilian Defense: O'Kelly Variation. Venice System (B28) · 0-1

Here is a video by IM Sagar Shah explaining this checkmate. Not as useful as the Deletang triangles method, just going through the Philodor W method. It explains a importand point to this method: controlling the only escape square with the N and leaving the others to the B. There is also a useful hint the defender of such endgames: Hou controlled the opposite corner square early on, so Päetz might have held on longer by trying to run away rather than trying to stay in the corner against someone who knew the Philidor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb6-H-VSsA4

Capablanca-Fan
18-02-2017, 04:19 AM
Knowledge of this mate was useful to Stefanova against Khurtsidze in the FIDE Womens World Champs knockout Tehran, 2017 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?16685-FIDE-Womens-World-Champs-knockout-Tehran-10-2-5-3&p=420809&viewfull=1#post420809).

ER
18-02-2017, 08:47 AM
That's very nice! Apart from Stefanova's game last night the only other one real tournament case of K+B+N win vs the lone K
that I can refer to was the famous Lloyd Fell victory versus Guy West!

Famous if not for the fine victory itself, definitely for the late Lloyd's victorious (as well as loud) bragging
after the end of the game!

Guy could give us more details about that game! :)

MichaelBaron
19-02-2017, 11:29 AM
That's very nice! Apart from Stefanova's game last night the only other one real tournament case of K+B+N win vs the lone K
that I can refer to was the famous Lloyd Fell victory versus Guy West!

Famous if not for the fine victory itself, definitely for the late Lloyd's victorious (as well as loud) bragging
after the end of the game!

Guy could give us more details about that game! :)

Unfortunately I have been on the receiving end of King vs. King+Bishop+Knight twice - and both times - my opponents mated me competently :(.

Jesper Norgaard
25-02-2017, 04:18 AM
Harika Dronavalli just had to mate with knight+bishop against Tan Zhongyi to survive for the tiebreak, since Tan had won the first classical game. She did wobble a lot and only managed to get potential mate on move 163 (Tan resigned on move 162), when Tan would be able to claim a draw on move 167! Apparently she did not know the W-maneuver with the knight via b3-d4-b5-d6-b7 but had a less efficient maneuver involving Bg6.

Harika, Dronavalli vs Tan, Zhongyi

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.O-O Bd7 5.Re1 Nf6 6.c3 a6 7.Bc4 b5 8.Bf1 e5 9.d4 Be7
10.d5 Na7 11.Nbd2 O-O 12.Bd3 Nc8 13.Nf1 Nb6 14.h3 Qc7 15.Ng3 a5 16.Bg5 Rfe8
17.Qc1 h6 18.Be3 c4 19.Bc2 b4 20. Qd1 Reb8 21. Nd2 Nh7 22. Qe2 Rc8 23. Bxb6 Qxb6
24. Nxc4 Qc5 25. Bd3 bxc3 26. bxc3 Bg5 27. Rab1 Rab8 28. Nf1 Nf8 29. Kh2 h5 30. Qxh5 Bf4+
31. Kg1 Bb5 32. Qe2 Bxc4 33. Rxb8 Rxb8 34. Bxc4 Qa3 35. Bb5 Qxc3 36. a4 Rc8 37. g3 Bg5
38. Ne3 Qb4 39. Nc4 Nd7 40. Nxa5 Rc2 41. Qxc2 Qxe1+ 42. Kg2 Nc5 43. Nc6 Bd2 44. Bd3 g6
45. h4 Bc3 46. Be2 Nxa4 47. Ne7+ Kf8 48. Nc8 Bd4 49. Bf3 Qb4 50. h5 gxh5 51. Qc1 Bc5
52. Qh6+ Ke8 53. Bxh5 Qxe4+ 54. Bf3 Qg6 55. Qh4 Kd7 56. Be4 f5 57. Ne7 Qf7 58. Bxf5+ Kc7
59. f3 Nb6 60. Be6 Qg7 61. Nf5 Qf8 62. Qh7+ Kb8 63. Ne7 Nc4 64. Nc6+ Ka8 65. Qg8 Qxg8
66. Bxg8 Kb7 67. g4 Be3 68. Nd8+ Kc7 69. Ne6+ Kd7 70. g5 Ke7 71. Bh7 Nb6 72. g6 Nxd5 73. g7 Nf6
74. g8=Q Nxg8 75. Bxg8 Kd7 76. Nf8+ Kc6 77. Ng6 Bg5 78. Kh3 Kc5 79. Kg4 Bd8 80. Nf8 Ba5
81. Ne6+ Kc4 82. Kf5 Kd3 83. Ng5 Kd4 84. Ba2 Bb4 85. Ne6+ Ke3 86. Bd5 Ba5 87. Ng5 Kd4 88. Ke6 Bc7
89. Ne4 Ke3 90. Nxd6 Kf4 91. Be4 Ba5 92. Nb7 Bc3 93. Nc5 Kg5 94. Nd3 Bd2 95. Kxe5 Bc3+ 96. Ke6 Bd2
97. Bc6 Kg6 98. Ke5 Kg5 99. Ke4 Kf6 100. Nf2 Ke6 101. Bd5+ Kd6 102. Ba2 Kd7 103. Ng4 Bg5
104. Ne5+ Kc7 105. Bb3 Bh6 106. Nc4 Bg5 107. Ba4 Kd8 108. Ne3 Kc7 109. Bb5 Kd6 110. Nf5+ Kc5
111. Be8 Kb4 112. Nd4 Bh6 113. Ne2 Kc5 114. Bf7 Bg5 115. Ba2 Bh6 116. f4 Bxf4 117. Nxf4 Kb4
118. Kd4 Kb5 119. Bd5 Kb4 120. Bc4 Ka3 121. Nd3 Ka4 122. Kc5 Ka3 123. Be6 Ka4 124. Nb4 Ka3
125. Kc4 Kb2 126. Bg4 Kc1 127. Kc3 Kb1 128. Nc2 Ka2 129. Be6+ Kb1 130. Ne3 Ka1 131. Nc4 Kb1
132. Nd2+ Ka1 133. Nb3+ Kb1 134. Bf5+ Ka2 135. Be4 Ka3 136. Bb1 Ka4 137. Nd4 Ka5 138. Kc4 Kb6
139. Bg6 Kc7 140. Kd5 Kd7 141. Nc6 Kc7 142. Kc5 Kd7 143. Bf7 Kc8 144. Be6+ Kc7 145. Ne5 Kb7
146. Bd5+ Kc8 147. Kd6 Kd8 148. Bf7 Kc8 149. Kc6 Kd8 150. Ng6 Kc8 151. Bd5 Kd8 152. Kd6 Ke8
153. Bb3 Kd8 154. Ba4 Kc8 155. Bc6 Kd8 156. Ne5 Kc8 157. Bd7+ Kb7 158. Nc4 Ka6 159. Kc7 Ka7
160. Bb5 Ka8 161. Nb6+ Ka7 162. Nc8+ 1-0

One remarkable thing is that after 56.Be4!,f5 she did not see the mate after the simple 57.Qe7+,Kxc8 58.Bd3 followed by Ba6(+) and Qb7# checkmate.

One thing I always wondered about the Deletang triangle, it will still not avoid that the opposing King can run back to the wrong corner and stay there, from which only the W-maneuver will work to extract it?

Jesper Norgaard
25-02-2017, 07:35 AM
Photo from the game :)

http://tehran2017.fide.com/images/stories/gallery/Round%205%20Game%202%20Llada/slides/r_20170224_teheran_wwc_R5G2_7424%20Harika%20Dronav alli%20TAN%20ZHONGYI%20INDIA%20CHINA.jpg

Capablanca-Fan
25-02-2017, 08:08 AM
Harika Dronavalli just had to mate with knight+bishop against Tan Zhongyi to survive for the tiebreak, since Tan had won the first classical game. She did wobble a lot and only managed to get potential mate on move 163 (Tan resigned on move 162), when Tan would be able to claim a draw on move 167! Apparently she did not know the W-maneuver with the knight via b3-d4-b5-d6-b7 but had a less efficient maneuver involving Bg6.

Harika, Dronavalli vs Tan, Zhongyi

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.O-O Bd7 5.Re1 Nf6 6.c3 a6 7.Bc4 b5 8.Bf1 e5 9.d4 Be7
10.d5 Na7 11.Nbd2 O-O 12.Bd3 Nc8 13.Nf1 Nb6 14.h3 Qc7 15.Ng3 a5 16.Bg5 Rfe8
17.Qc1 h6 18.Be3 c4 19.Bc2 b4 20. Qd1 Reb8 21. Nd2 Nh7 22. Qe2 Rc8 23. Bxb6 Qxb6
24. Nxc4 Qc5 25. Bd3 bxc3 26. bxc3 Bg5 27. Rab1 Rab8 28. Nf1 Nf8 29. Kh2 h5 30. Qxh5 Bf4+
31. Kg1 Bb5 32. Qe2 Bxc4 33. Rxb8 Rxb8 34. Bxc4 Qa3 35. Bb5 Qxc3 36. a4 Rc8 37. g3 Bg5
38. Ne3 Qb4 39. Nc4 Nd7 40. Nxa5 Rc2 41. Qxc2 Qxe1+ 42. Kg2 Nc5 43. Nc6 Bd2 44. Bd3 g6
45. h4 Bc3 46. Be2 Nxa4 47. Ne7+ Kf8 48. Nc8 Bd4 49. Bf3 Qb4 50. h5 gxh5 51. Qc1 Bc5
52. Qh6+ Ke8 53. Bxh5 Qxe4+ 54. Bf3 Qg6 55. Qh4 Kd7 56. Be4 f5 57. Ne7 Qf7 58. Bxf5+ Kc7
59. f3 Nb6 60. Be6 Qg7 61. Nf5 Qf8 62. Qh7+ Kb8 63. Ne7 Nc4 64. Nc6+ Ka8 65. Qg8 Qxg8
66. Bxg8 Kb7 67. g4 Be3 68. Nd8+ Kc7 69. Ne6+ Kd7 70. g5 Ke7 71. Bh7 Nb6 72. g6 Nxd5 73. g7 Nf6
74. g8=Q Nxg8 75. Bxg8 Kd7 76. Nf8+ Kc6 77. Ng6 Bg5 78. Kh3 Kc5 79. Kg4 Bd8 80. Nf8 Ba5
81. Ne6+ Kc4 82. Kf5 Kd3 83. Ng5 Kd4 84. Ba2 Bb4 85. Ne6+ Ke3 86. Bd5 Ba5 87. Ng5 Kd4 88. Ke6 Bc7
89. Ne4 Ke3 90. Nxd6 Kf4 91. Be4 Ba5 92. Nb7 Bc3 93. Nc5 Kg5 94. Nd3 Bd2 95. Kxe5 Bc3+ 96. Ke6 Bd2
97. Bc6 Kg6 98. Ke5 Kg5 99. Ke4 Kf6 100. Nf2 Ke6 101. Bd5+ Kd6 102. Ba2 Kd7 103. Ng4 Bg5
104. Ne5+ Kc7 105. Bb3 Bh6 106. Nc4 Bg5 107. Ba4 Kd8 108. Ne3 Kc7 109. Bb5 Kd6 110. Nf5+ Kc5
111. Be8 Kb4 112. Nd4 Bh6 113. Ne2 Kc5 114. Bf7 Bg5 115. Ba2 Bh6 116. f4 Bxf4 117. Nxf4 Kb4
118. Kd4 Kb5 119. Bd5 Kb4 120. Bc4 Ka3 121. Nd3 Ka4 122. Kc5 Ka3 123. Be6 Ka4 124. Nb4 Ka3
125. Kc4 Kb2 126. Bg4 Kc1 127. Kc3 Kb1 128. Nc2 Ka2 129. Be6+ Kb1 130. Ne3 Ka1 131. Nc4 Kb1
132. Nd2+ Ka1 133. Nb3+ Kb1 134. Bf5+ Ka2 135. Be4 Ka3 136. Bb1 Ka4 137. Nd4 Ka5 138. Kc4 Kb6
139. Bg6 Kc7 140. Kd5 Kd7 141. Nc6 Kc7 142. Kc5 Kd7 143. Bf7 Kc8 144. Be6+ Kc7 145. Ne5 Kb7
146. Bd5+ Kc8 147. Kd6 Kd8 148. Bf7 Kc8 149. Kc6 Kd8 150. Ng6 Kc8 151. Bd5 Kd8 152. Kd6 Ke8
153. Bb3 Kd8 154. Ba4 Kc8 155. Bc6 Kd8 156. Ne5 Kc8 157. Bd7+ Kb7 158. Nc4 Ka6 159. Kc7 Ka7
160. Bb5 Ka8 161. Nb6+ Ka7 162. Nc8+ 1-0

One remarkable thing is that after 56.Be4!,f5 she did not see the mate after the simple 57.Qe7+,Kxc8 58.Bd3 followed by Ba6(+) and Qb7# checkmate.
True! I guess she might have settled down for the grind a P ahead and didn't consider a sac to mate quickly


One thing I always wondered about the Deletang triangle, it will still not avoid that the opposing King can run back to the wrong corner and stay there, from which only the W-maneuver will work to extract it?
I think you are supposed to form the triangle around the enemy K and the right corner, and it seems possible to keep him there.

Jesper Norgaard
25-02-2017, 09:39 AM
I think you are supposed to form the triangle around the enemy K and the right corner, and it seems possible to keep him there.

That is true in many starting positions. It wasn't in Harika's game, and if the king actually occupies one of the wrong corner squares, Deletang will not help at all!? Which means you need to learn the W-maneuver as well as Deletang. That may be fine since Deletang is general-purpose and will be possible in 70-80% of starting positions. But if you refuse to learn the W-maneuver, you will be in for a shock in 20-30% of the starting positions if the opponent plays to stay in the wrong corner no matter what.

claranow
07-06-2017, 01:43 AM
I really liked the way it was explained here (https://www.chesskid.com/article/view/basic-checkmates-two-bishops-and-a-king), it's for kids, so it's step by step, so that is always a good thing when one likes to go slow and careful about it :)

ElevatorEscapee
10-06-2017, 10:56 PM
^^ Umm, that link seems to go to a two bishops forcing mate explanation, which is a much more simple task.

Do you have a link with the Bishop and Knight checkmate?

Igor_Goldenberg
16-06-2017, 03:10 PM
I think it's useful to know both Deletang and W. I teach my students the W method for two reasons:

1. It's easier.
2. I did not know Deletang method until seeing this thread :)

claranow
24-06-2017, 08:48 PM
Many players never meet this, but it's worth knowing, because it could happen next game! Wikipedia, for a change, doesn't do a bad job of explaining it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_and_knight_checkmate), similar to some of my training positions for the Logan CC Study Group.

I had to face it this year (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=152953&postcount=48), and succeeded. Strangely enough, at an Olympiad in 1988, I was preparing to face it against Martin del Campo (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1450741), but this was in the bad old days of adjournments, and my opponent resigned rather than having to return later.

Some previous games include:


a lesser known Anderssen game where he sacrificed the exchange for an attack in a queenless middlegame against Morphy (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1019062). Morphy was too gentlemanly to play out the mate.
Anand-Kasparov Linares 1999 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1257987), with deft maneuvres by Kasparov at the end, winning the lone N. IIRC Tim Krabbé's annotations included an exasperated, "Yes, of course the World Champ can mate with B+N!"
To remove any doubt about the great chess skills of the élite, see how Judit Polgár did it blindfold against the also blindfolded Ljubojević (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1092636), in a method somewhat off the beaten tracks, but described in Averbakh & Maizelis, Pawn Endings (the final chapter is on basic mates).


For some reason I think that Kasparov would play where Morphy did not, he always seem like more agressive player.
But I love all this read, this is one play, even though one of the most often, that I play so rarely because I can't find myself in it at all. I find it fascinating where you cannot force them, like shown on wiki.

Adamski
14-02-2018, 03:54 PM
Another illustration of the Deletang triangles method, which seems preferable to learn:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3EqM17jvOc

I just watched this (now old) video and it is awesome! Highly recommended for anyone who does not already know a method to mate with KBN vs K.

MichaelBaron
15-02-2018, 06:21 PM
I just watched this (now old) video and it is awesome! Highly recommended for anyone who does not already know a method to mate with KBN vs K.

Yep, quite instructive. I discovered that in blitz a student of mine even struggled to mate with 2Bs (got it done eventually). Always good, to work through the basics!

FM_Bill
08-10-2018, 01:22 PM
Former Australian champion Max Fuller once told me he could do this mate with one minute on the clock.

There is a way of doing it when playing Kriegspiel, i.e. not knowing where the King is except by guessing when you check. It was covered in an old Chess In Australia article. Maybe its to Deletang method?

There are many endings you are more likely to get. e.g. Q v R, which are worth knowing.

Capablanca-Fan
24-08-2019, 03:01 AM
There are many endings you are more likely to get. e.g. Q v R, which are worth knowing.
You're in luck now: see this new thread (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?17667-Queen-vs-Rook-endgame)!

Desmond
20-12-2020, 08:37 PM
MVL and Aronian had this in the recent Hand and Brain banter blitz. Hand and brain is when one player (Aronian) nominates the piece to be moved, and the other choses where to move it (and which piece of the named variety). First game in the broadcast.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncaiqstQwqI

Capablanca-Fan
28-12-2020, 07:22 AM
↑↑ Interesting format. As expected, GMs of their calibre would not let opponents escape.

Desmond
02-01-2021, 01:22 PM
MVL and Aronian had this in the recent Hand and Brain banter blitz. Hand and brain is when one player (Aronian) nominates the piece to be moved, and the other choses where to move it (and which piece of the named variety). First game in the broadcast.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncaiqstQwqI

In a somewhat amusing twist of fate, the same two players had the same endgame again shortly after. This time they were playing against each other and not collaborating. The conversion once again wasn't a problem.

https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/champions-chess-tour-airthings-masters-2020-knockout/5/2/3

Capablanca-Fan
02-01-2021, 05:25 PM
In a somewhat amusing twist of fate, the same two players had the same endgame again shortly after. This time they were playing against each other and not collaborating. The conversion once again wasn't a problem.

https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/champions-chess-tour-airthings-masters-2020-knockout/5/2/3

That's a remarkable turnup. I am surprised it lasted so long, until Aronian proved that he knew the trickiest part of the Philidor method, letting the K out to c6. Not that there was any doubt that he could handle this, especially after their consultation game.

Desmond
02-01-2021, 06:02 PM
That's a remarkable turnup. I am surprised it lasted so long, until Aronian proved that he knew the trickiest part of the Philidor method, letting the K out to c6. Not that there was any doubt that he could handle this, especially after their consultation game.

Yes Maxime just blitzed out the last 30 moves. Maybe hoping for a miracle but maybe just coming to grips with being eliminated (he needed to draw the game for the match to continue).

grandmastermac.
28-02-2021, 11:03 AM
^^ Umm, that link seems to go to a two bishops forcing mate explanation, which is a much more simple task.

Do you have a link with the Bishop and Knight checkmate?

https://grandmastermac.com/the-knight-bishop-mate/

MichaelBaron
01-03-2021, 03:02 AM
A couple of days ago at a chess tournament in Serbia, a 2400+ GM failed to mate iwth K+B.

ER
01-03-2021, 05:48 AM
If I remember correctly our Anton can do that with one minute on the clock! my program (Fritz 15) can't do it to save its life!
Well, maybe it can do it if I start it with the defending King in the right corner and with 4-5 moves to go before the checkmate!

Desmond
01-03-2021, 11:20 AM
A couple of days ago at a chess tournament in Serbia, a 2400+ GM failed to mate iwth K+B.

I think the GM can be forgiven for not mating with a K+B.

Patrick Byrom
01-03-2021, 06:44 PM
If I remember correctly our Anton can do that with one minute on the clock! my program (Fritz 15) can't do it to save its life!
Well, maybe it can do it if I start it with the defending King in the right corner and with 4-5 moves to go before the checkmate!I don't know about Fritz, but Tarrasch uses Stockfish, and it corners me in 20 moves, even from a bad starting position.

MichaelBaron
05-03-2021, 09:07 PM
I twice had to defend with the lonely king vs B & N and I got mated both times...the opponents for not GMs: an IM and a WIM...but both mated me comprehensively.

Kevin Bonham
05-03-2021, 10:13 PM
With Fritz it would possibly depend on the level it was on. I put Fritz 16 on Club Player level and I forked the pieces and drew after 8 moves, then I put it on Strong Club Player level and it mated me the first time in 24 moves and the second time in 25.

[edit: on a second attempt Club Player level also managed to mate in 25.]

Patrick Byrom
06-03-2021, 03:55 PM
With Fritz it would possibly depend on the level it was on. I put Fritz 16 on Club Player level and I forked the pieces and drew after 8 moves, then I put it on Strong Club Player level and it mated me the first time in 24 moves and the second time in 25. [edit: on a second attempt Club Player level also managed to mate in 25.]Wouldn't Fritz do it perfectly using the endgame tablebase? That's what they were designed for (https://en.chessbase.com/post/fritz-endgame-turbo-3-part-1):

Humans can learn technique and remember it from game to game. Chess engines can't. That's why a lot of chess programs (particularly older ones) can sometimes fail to give mate in "won" positions (the Knight + Bishop vs. lone King mate is a notorious example). So how do programmers solve this problem? ... Back in the early 1990's, a partial solution was reached by the legendary Ken Thompson of Bell Labs. He created a set of endgame databases which chess engines could use to provide them with "technique" in simple endgames.

Kevin Bonham
07-03-2021, 09:19 PM
Wouldn't Fritz do it perfectly using the endgame tablebase?

It seems it doesn't use it consistently when playing on casual game levels. I just had another three goes on Beginner level - it won one in 17 moves (looked like tablebases) but then let me get draws by forking the pieces and repetition in the next two. Not sure why it sometimes seems to be using tablebases and sometimes not.

Capablanca-Fan
08-03-2021, 06:06 PM
I don't know about Fritz, but Tarrasch uses Stockfish, and it corners me in 20 moves, even from a bad starting position.

Tarrasch defaults to Stockfish 8 but can use others. I now use Stockfish 12 on Tarrasch.

Vlad
08-03-2021, 09:33 PM
If I remember correctly our Anton can do that with one minute on the clock!...

Anton could do this with one minute when he was 6 years old. At my prime I could do this in 30 seconds. I bet Anton can do this in less than 20 seconds now.:D

P.S. I think a much harder task that he can do now is to solve Rubik's-cube blindfolded. When I was younger I was not even aware that something like that is possible.:)