PDA

View Full Version : David Cordover's Schools Competition



biggles
26-05-2004, 07:11 PM
I am an admirer of David Cordover, and I was grateful for his terrific help in organising the Drouin Open.
But I am resolutely opposed to his attempts to set up an alternative schools competition.
The Age this morning (26th May, page 9 ) reported that "yesterday...about 60 budding Bobby Fischers...kicked off this year's Interschool Chess Championships".
In fact schools all across Victoria have been playing since the beginning of May in what has long been regarded as the "Interschool Chess Championships" run by the VCA.
My teams played at Stratford two weeks ago...and had a great time.
It is evident though that the established competition (established for decades) is under threat from David's private competition.
David, according to the Age, is offering a $10,000 prize package at the end so naturally it will tempt a lot of schools.
I imagine that David is running his competition with business motives firmly in mind, and that the $10,000 will come from his profits.
I don't so much object to this as to the fact that the "old" competition is threatened with decimation by the lures that David has thrown out.
I love the old competition and was largely responsible for its establishment in Gippsland and I am damned if I am going to sit back and see it destroyed.

David Bell
Drouin Secondary College

eclectic
26-05-2004, 07:16 PM
and is DC still a CV committee member ?

need i say more ?

eclectic

Alan Shore
26-05-2004, 08:05 PM
I believe it's the desire of Cordover to expand his empire nationwide.. since Victoria is *the* location of privatisation you all should have seen this coming sooner. He is a businessman and is in it to make money and he's not the only one. Tiresome State Chess Associations will have to start either smartening up their act or batten down the hatches against the iminent Cordover expansion.

jase
26-05-2004, 11:08 PM
David Bell,

It is a pleasure to hear from you.
Wayen had told me of your move south some time ago but these details escape one without witness to the detail.

Fair points, well argued. Question: have you expressed your views to The Age? You quote them; perhaps you ought to set the record straight in your eloquent fashion in a letter to either the journalist or the editor?

Let's you and WG and I have a beer during the July school holidays - I will traverse my newly purchased motor scooter down the Hume for the occasion, with due deference in the form of a salute to old Narwee, which has changed not a jot.

Best,
Jase

jenni
26-05-2004, 11:19 PM
It doesn't have to have a negative impact.

The ANU for years had run its chess festival and as part of that had the ACT Primary and ACT High Schools championships. The comps were fairly small with around 13 schools in the PS participating with maybe 30 teams.

When the ACTJCL started in 1997 we decided to run a more broadly based schools comp with 4 zones (then 6) and a very active development program.

At that point there was not a lot of co-operation between the people running the ANU and the JCL. The start of our comp was viewed as a negative thing and of course we wanted ours to be the "ACT" schools comps and their's to be the "ANU" school comps. In the first year the JCL comp attracted around 150 teams in the PS and it did have a negative impact on the ANU. By the second year however our comp had grown another 30% and the ANU was bursting at the seams.

It has continued since then, with now a lot of co-operation between us and the ANU and schools are more than happy to enter both. We tend to distribute info about the ANU comp to schools who enter our zones.

If it ends up as a fight between Chess Victoria and ChessGuru then it is harmful. If they publicise each others tournaments then both can grow. Any school that is activately playing chess, is probably keen to enter more than one competition.

PHAT
26-05-2004, 11:27 PM
If it ends up as a fight between Chess Victoria and ChessGuru then it is harmful. If they publicise each others tournaments then both can grow. Any school that is activately playing chess, is probably keen to enter more than one competition.

"If they publicise each others tournaments then both can grow." Yes, I agree, but will they? The term "Championship" has a great deal of commercial value. The trouble is that Victoria is such a [snip] little village that there is only room for one big noise.

jenni
26-05-2004, 11:46 PM
"If they publicise each others tournaments then both can grow." Yes, I agree, but will they? The term "Championship" has a great deal of commercial value. The trouble is that Victoria is such a [snip] little village that there is only room for one big noise.
Well maybe expecting them to co-operate to that point is overly idealistic, but at least not indulge in warfare!

Both can be viewed as championships but with different prizes - CV's offers something money can't buy i.e the opportunity to represent their state at the ASCC. The other offers a gigantic prize fund.

However I suppose it will all end up with blood on the floor - Chess people always fight as hard away from the board as across it. :D

biggles
27-05-2004, 07:03 AM
David Cordover has expressed the view that the VCA tournament does not offer enough opportunities for competition, and that schools should welcome having 3 or 4 other competition days during the year.
Unfortunately, schools have neither the time nor the resources for this.
Either they cannot afford a bus to cart the kids, or they cannot justify asking struggling parents to pay for yet another excursion.
They certainly cannot take kids out of the school without disrupting the curriculum...and most teachers get pretty narky about disruptions (at secondary level).
But the VCA competition is the one big competition of the year that schools look forward to.
Some may feel that if David can expand competition into new areas good luck to him...and I agree...but in fact I have a strong feeling that he is going to cannibalise the existing competition.

David Bell
Drouin Secondary

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 08:16 AM
I am an admirer of David Cordover, and I was grateful for his terrific help in organising the Drouin Open.
But I am resolutely opposed to his attempts to set up an alternative schools competition.
The Age this morning (26th May, page 9 ) reported that "yesterday...about 60 budding Bobby Fischers...kicked off this year's Interschool Chess Championships".
In fact schools all across Victoria have been playing since the beginning of May in what has long been regarded as the "Interschool Chess Championships" run by the VCA.
My teams played at Stratford two weeks ago...and had a great time.
It is evident though that the established competition (established for decades) is under threat from David's private competition.
David, according to the Age, is offering a $10,000 prize package at the end so naturally it will tempt a lot of schools.
I imagine that David is running his competition with business motives firmly in mind, and that the $10,000 will come from his profits.
I don't so much object to this as to the fact that the "old" competition is threatened with decimation by the lures that David has thrown out.
I love the old competition and was largely responsible for its establishment in Gippsland and I am damned if I am going to sit back and see it destroyed.

David Bell
Drouin Secondary College

hi David Bell

You know I am personally sympathetic to your efforts, however, I notice that the ChessVICTORIA web-site still does not recognise Drouin as an affiliated Club. Mate, we need you in the tent to strengthen all. Until all possible Clubs join CV, and nominate people to the EXECUTIVE, then DC is going to have a free hand to further his interests by applying energy at the key decision-making points in chess administration. DC is competitive and no amount of regulation is going to dilute his energy. Only competition from other officials willing to stand for office can counter-balance the profiteer.

In essence, CV has two assets.
1) Titles. And with titles, the path to Australian Playoffs of Schools teams.
2) Ratings. This advantage was eroded at the previous CV AGM when a motion was passed allowing non-affiliated bodies to have their events rated for a premium. (I presume the Drouin OPEN benefited from this).
The chess community will watch with interest DC's bundling of Mt Buller senior events with a Schools playoff. If this happens then the erosion will be complete. The rationale to be 'affiliated' will have evaporated.

Is Drouin going to apply to become affiliated, or remain with the 'cannibals'?

regards
starter

Alan Shore
27-05-2004, 09:06 AM
Um, so why was Sweeney banned, for giving Victoria crap? Cos there shouldn't be much wrong with that :p

eclectic
27-05-2004, 09:37 AM
The chess community will watch with interest DC's bundling of Mt Buller senior events with a Schools playoff. If this happens then the erosion will be complete. The rationale to be 'affiliated' will have evaporated.

Is Drouin going to apply to become affiliated, or remain with the 'cannibals'?

regards
starter
It's interesting that when you go to http://www.chessvictoria.com and click on "Affiliated Clubs" you don't find David Cordover's (aka ChessGuru;s) Chess World listed there.

I note that Chess Ideas is.

However, to be fair, the website isn't exactly prompt in being updated so this information might be erroneous.

If the facts are true though then perhaps we have bit of a nerve to ask David Bell and the Drouin Chess Club to be affiliated given the event he helped set up in his region is now being appropriated by a non affiliated organisation.

If there is insistance on affiliation then ALL clubs should be affiliated even if the fee is half price for the first five years.

Let's add more salt to the wound and note that David Cordover still ? holds an executive position on the body against which he is competing.

A final note.

Is this latest venture by David Cordover perhaps an indication that the entire Victorian Schools competition is about to be sourced out to him?

(cheers)

eclectic

jenni
27-05-2004, 09:45 AM
The chess community will watch with interest DC's bundling of Mt Buller senior events with a Schools playoff. If this happens then the erosion will be complete. The rationale to be 'affiliated' will have evaporated.

regards
starter

Umm - well I am not sure how bundled it is - for a start the ASCC is going to be held at the beginning of December - which is when the parent community wanted it and David has been sensitive to our needs.

Secondly it will still only be one team from each state in each division and only the official body (in this case chess Victoria) will be able to endorse the representative team. Thus the rational to play in the "official" comp will remain.

Secondly, it is a one off thing, from the end of next year it will be back to being held by the states. I know NSW is preparing their bid for the ASCC in Dec 2005 and the ACT has already started on their bid for Nov/Dec 2006.

Ian Rout
27-05-2004, 09:45 AM
So who does own the rights to the title "Interschool Chess Championships" (or "Victorian Interschool Chess Championships") or is it so general that nobody can own it?

I recall there was some recent discussion about an unuthorised transfer "championship" - personally I don't care who runs championships of chess variants and there is an argument that it is better that ACF not dilute itself trying to manage such things. However if anybody could set up an "Australian Chess Championship" that could be inconvenient.

There is a comparsion with multiple world chess champions but Kramnik's title was at least initially referred to as "Brain Games World Champion" and there was no attempt to imply that it was recognised by FIDE. And of course there is boxing where there are about four organisations crowning world champions - I heard many years ago that with different weight divisions there were at the time 44 world boxing champions.

Rhubarb
27-05-2004, 09:46 AM
why was Sweeney banned

yes, why?

jenni
27-05-2004, 09:46 AM
Um, so why was Sweeney banned, for giving Victoria crap? Cos there shouldn't be much wrong with that :p

He wasn't - it was other posts that resulted in the short ban.

jenni
27-05-2004, 09:57 AM
They certainly cannot take kids out of the school without disrupting the curriculum...and most teachers get pretty narky about disruptions (at secondary level).


I'm starting to think the ACT must be unique in valuing co-curricular activities! Currently ACT High Schools and colleges attend 3 chess days. 2 for the ACTJCL High Schools and 1 for the ANU High Schools. Many children also take time out for other activities, such as ASC cross country, swimming, athletics, tennis, etc. No-one seems to have a problem with this. I take the point about cost and of course that can be a problem. The ACT's small area does makes competitions very accessible to everyone.

Shannon in both year 11 and year 12, took a month off school to go to the Wold Youth Chess Championships. Apart from a letter the second time saying the school wouldn't be to blame for any drop in UAI as a consequence (butt covering exercise), the school was quite happy to have her go. In fact when we spoke to her chemistry teacher he totally encouraged us to let her go.

biggles
27-05-2004, 10:27 AM
Drouin does not have a chess club except in the local school. Can a school club be affiliated with the VCA?
The Drouin Open was a personal initiative by me, funded by me, and run by David Cordover.
I am pleased that it was a rated event, even though unaffiliated with VCA, but if I thought that it would undermine the authority of the VCA I would not repeat the event.
This thread however is not about the Drouin Open but about the Interschool Competition.
The first Gippsland round ever of the VCA school competition (2 years ago) attracted a whole lot of schools, both Primary and Secondary.
This year, at Stratford, only 5 secondary schools, and 3 primary schools participated.
Why?
Cost of transport and distance were a deterrence for many schools.... The private schools in Gippsland have their own competition, although Gippsland Grammar showed up for the VCA event...and many schools have not yet developed a chess club, program, or culture.
David Cordover wants to bring his competition to Gippsland, and I believe that this will simply divide a struggling community of schools even further.
Yes, some schools in West Gippsland will find it easier to play in David's competition in Warragul than to make the long trip to Stratford or Traralgon, but in so doing they will find themselves affiliated with a business whose primary interest is NOT the development of chess in Gippsland Schools, but in making money. If they stick with the VCA competition they will be assured that they are aligned with people (such as Chris Potter ..Mirbooo North, Peter Ries...Gippsland Grammar, and myself ) who care passionately about the development of chess in this part of the world.

David Bell
Drouin Secondary College

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 11:11 AM
Umm - well I am not sure how bundled it is - for a start the ASCC is going to be held at the beginning of December - which is when the parent community wanted it and David has been sensitive to our needs.
Sorry jenni, but I have to disagree.
Rather than him being sensitive to your needs it is more of a case of him being dragged kicking and screaming into following the established procedures and requiring him to follow the ACF by-laws with regards the ASCC.

jenni
27-05-2004, 11:12 AM
Sorry jenni, but I have to disagree.
Rather than him being sensitive to your needs it is more of a case of him being dragged kicking and screaming into following the established procedures and requiring him to follow the ACF by-laws with regards the ASCC.

Bill!!!

I'm trying to be conciliatory and nurturing here!!

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 11:16 AM
and is DC still a CV committee member ?

need i say more ?

eclectic
Surely David as a CV executive member would/should be looking for sponsorship of the CV run interschools competition and not creating a rival event with him as the organiser.

From far away in NSW it looks like a definite case of conflict of interest.

jenni
27-05-2004, 11:20 AM
This year, at Stratford, only 5 secondary schools, and 3 primary schools participated.
Why?
Cost of transport and distance were a deterrence for many schools.... The private schools in Gippsland have their own competition, although Gippsland Grammar showed up for the VCA event...and many schools have not yet developed a chess club, program, or culture.
David Cordover wants to bring his competition to Gippsland, and I believe that this will simply divide a struggling community of schools even further.
Yes, some schools in West Gippsland will find it easier to play in David's competition in Warragul than to make the long trip to Stratford or Traralgon, but in so doing they will find themselves affiliated with a business whose primary interest is NOT the development of chess in Gippsland Schools, but in making money. If they stick with the VCA competition they will be assured that they are aligned with people (such as Chris Potter ..Mirbooo North, Peter Ries...Gippsland Grammar, and myself ) who care passionately about the development of chess in this part of the world.

David Bell
Drouin Secondary College

I think you have to be pragmatic. I don't believe you can stop someone from starting another comp. If it becomes a fight between the two then one is going to be harmed (and given DC's business accumen I suspect it won't be him).

So launch a publicity campaign.(Presumably you have contact people at all the schools whom you either phone or e-mail? If not you should have - create a database, that you can update as they move around). Promote the benefits of the CV tournaments (official, lead to the ASCC, non-profit etc). Then also promote DC's tournaments as good beginner tournaments. Tell schools that would find them more convenient that they are good tournaments to go to to start their chess careers, but once they feel they have competent teams, then they need to move to the "real" tournaments. There are lots of things you can say, that will create a positive image for your tournaments and help chess to grow overall.

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 11:26 AM
Bill!!!

I'm trying to be conciliatory and nurturing here!!
Yes, but unfortunately to the masses who read this BB it would be misleading.
Having spoken with you over many years one thing I know is that you are always straightforward and from misleading. ;)

jenni
27-05-2004, 11:32 AM
Yes, but unfortunately to the masses who read this BB it would be misleading.
Having spoken with you over many years one thing I know is that you are always straightforward and from misleading. ;)

Having got our way with everything we wanted, I didn't see the need to put the boot in.

Also David really didn't want to have the comp in December, but after a number of chats on this subject, he did do a survey of parents at Doeberl and came to the conclusion that it could be beneficial to have it in December. While he might have been dragged kicking and screaming on all the other issues, on this one I do believe he was convinced of parental preferences.

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 11:46 AM
Having got our way with everything we wanted, I didn't see the need to put the boot in.
I figured the boot would have been put in if it had been on the other foot.
As such whats good for the guru is good for the gander.


Also David really didn't want to have the comp in December, but after a number of chats on this subject, he did do a survey of parents at Doeberl and came to the conclusion that it could be beneficial to have it in December. While he might have been dragged kicking and screaming on all the other issues, on this one I do believe he was convinced of parental preferences.
Ok then you orignal statement was not misleading. It was just a little incomplete as regards the whole picture. ;)

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 11:53 AM
It's interesting that when you go to http://www.chessvictoria.com and click on "Affiliated Clubs" you don't find David Cordover's (aka ChessGuru;s) Chess World listed there.

eclectic
This is old news. I have pointed out quite a few times previously that DC’s organisation is not affiliated with CV. In fact, I created a discussion on the old BB as to whether in fact the CV consitution would permit a commercial body to join.




I note that Chess Ideas is.

However, to be fair, the website isn't exactly prompt in being updated so this information might be erroneous.

Agreed.




If the facts are true though then perhaps we have bit of a nerve to ask David Bell and the Drouin Chess Club to be affiliated given the event he helped set up in his region is now being appropriated by a non affiliated organisation.


As a good unionist I was pointing out to David Bell that there is strength in numbers. At the moment David Bell’s organisation appears to be non-affiliated. His call to ‘all hands on deck’ raises the question of which ship he is on.




If there is insistence on affiliation then ALL clubs should be affiliated even if the fee is half price for the first five years.


‘Insistence on affiliation’ is not within anyone’s power obviously. In fact, more Clubs will be outside the affiliation than in.

BTW eclectic, off the top of your head, how much do you think it costs a Club to be affiliated?




Let's add more salt to the wound and note that David Cordover still ? holds an executive position on the body against which he is competing.


But then so do two other CV Executive members of Whitehorse who also have in their MISSION statement a desire to run events in schools, in competition with CV. They are just not as energetic on this front as DC.




A final note.

Is this latest venture by David Cordover perhaps an indication that the entire Victorian Schools competition is about to be sourced out to him?


It would not be the first time.




(cheers)

eclectic


In summary, I am close to agreeing with everything you post here eclectic.

starter

Garvinator
27-05-2004, 11:55 AM
He wasn't - it was other posts that resulted in the short ban.
which posts?? i havent seen anything that has been as bad as stuff he has posted in the past. I actually thought matt was doing a good job of posting on topic and typing with clarity.

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 11:58 AM
which posts?? i havent seen anything that has been as bad as stuff he has posted in the past. I actually thought matt was doing a good job of posting on topic and typing with clarity.
I'm guessing they were posted overnight and have been deleted by the moderators.

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 12:07 PM
Drouin does not have a chess club except in the local school. Can a school club be affiliated with the VCA?
The Drouin Open was a personal initiative by me, funded by me, and run by David Cordover.
I am pleased that it was a rated event, even though unaffiliated with VCA, but if I thought that it would undermine the authority of the VCA I would not repeat the event.


David
1 I think a school club could be a candidate for affiliation. Yes.

2 ChessVICTORIA passed a rule that enabled your event to be rated. So, while the rule is there, please continue with your energetic good work.

starter

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 12:10 PM
Um, so why was Sweeney banned, for giving Victoria crap? Cos there shouldn't be much wrong with that :p

I would be against banning any Queenslanders from this BB.

starter

jenni
27-05-2004, 12:13 PM
I'm guessing they were posted overnight and have been deleted by the moderators.
He posted something on another thread that one of the moderators deleted, He then kept on posting the same one. I think it was deleted 3 or 4 times. This was happening around midnight and there was a group decision to exercise a 24 hour ban. Easier than staying up all night playing delete the post.

Garvinator
27-05-2004, 12:40 PM
I would be against banning any Queenslanders from this BB.

starter
dont understand this post? sweeney is from nsw :uhoh:

eclectic
27-05-2004, 12:41 PM
BTW eclectic, off the top of your head, how much do you think it costs a Club to be affiliated?
starter,

I actually have no idea although a figure of $150 seems to run through my head for some reason.

It is a good point to raise though because I understand that the Schools Competition THE PRIMARY REVENUE RAISING SOURCE for Chess Victoria.

This actually helps keep club affilation fees down.

So if and when CV no longer runs these events then expect a motion to (substantially?) raise club affiliation (and event rating) fees at its next AGM.

(cheers)

eclectic

eclectic
27-05-2004, 01:05 PM
dont understand this post? sweeney is from nsw :uhoh:
ggrayggray,

i think it's a veiled starter backhander directed at BD your fellow QLDer

:whistle:

eclectic

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 01:10 PM
ggrayggray,

i think it's a veiled starter backhander directed at BD your fellow QLDer

:whistle:

eclectic

Moderately well-done eclectic

It was only veiled for gg''.

starter

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 01:15 PM
starter,

I actually have no idea although a figure of $150 seems to run through my head for some reason.

It is a good point to raise though because I understand that the Schools Competition THE PRIMARY REVENUE RAISING SOURCE for Chess Victoria.

This actually helps keep club affilation fees down.

So if and when CV no longer runs these events then expect a motion to (substantially?) raise club affiliation (and event rating) fees at its next AGM.

(cheers)

eclectic


eclectic
You are showing yourself to have a remarkably accurate view of CV finances, policies, and politics. Ever thought of running for President?

Your next task, off the top of your head, is to estimate how much extra it cost Drouin (as an unaffiliated body) to have their recent tournament rated.

And then the trifecta > what would have been the cheaper course of action.

Look forward to your responses.

starter

arosar
27-05-2004, 01:18 PM
. . . they will find themselves affiliated with a business whose primary interest is NOT the development of chess in Gippsland Schools, but in making money. If they stick with the VCA competition they will be assured that they are aligned with people (such as Chris Potter ..Mirbooo North, Peter Ries...Gippsland Grammar, and myself ) who care passionately about the development of chess in this part of the world.

All power to the profiteer I say. You seem to be questioning Cordo's commitment to chess development. Doesn't this bloke run a coaching business? Now listen here, I don't really agree with much of your whining here. At least you people have someone actually putting money into chess. The only problem I can see here is one of scheduling and use of official names like 'X Championships' or whatever. These can be sorted out. Just tell the bas.tard to schedule at another time a tourn by another name. Geddit?

If the tyrannies of distance and all their attendant challenges are such a problem for some schools, why not run 2 separate regional comps then whoever are the champs at the end meet in the finals. You know, like in NBA and Gridiron?

But you know what? I just get this funny feeling that you're one of these people who reckon that profit = bad so anything they do is bad. Lemme tell youse, profiteering is definitely good!!

If you see Cordo, tell him we're still waiting on Aus Open info and clarification.

AR

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 01:20 PM
starter,

I understand that the Schools Competition THE PRIMARY REVENUE RAISING SOURCE for Chess Victoria.

This actually helps keep club affilation fees down.

So if and when CV no longer runs these events then expect a motion to (substantially?) raise club affiliation (and event rating) fees at its next AGM.)

eclectic

Maybe not eclectic.
Have you heard about 'profitless volume'?
While it (Schools Competition) may be the main income stream it may not even be a profit stream, after costs.

starter

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 01:26 PM
dont understand this post? sweeney is from nsw :uhoh:

But we all understand the value of your post gg''.
It is exactly +1.
And it adds to your post count.
Nothing more, nothing less.

starter

arosar
27-05-2004, 01:31 PM
ggrayggray,

i think it's a veiled starter backhander directed at BD your fellow QLDer

:whistle:

eclectic

Take it easy on me mate gray...we beat the crap out of 'em last night by one point Johnny Wilkinson style.

AR

eclectic
27-05-2004, 02:05 PM
eclectic
You are showing yourself to have a remarkably accurate view of CV finances, policies, and politics. Ever thought of running for President?

Your next task, off the top of your head, is to estimate how much it cost Drouin (as an unaffiliated body) to have their recent tournament rated.

And then the trifecta > what would have been the cheaper course of action.

Look forward to your responses.

starter
starter,

This is like setting the terms of reference for an inquiry ... make sure you already know the answer before you launch it.

Assuming it is a fee of 50 cents per game per person then 49 --> 50 players and take them as all rated gives $175 plus any upfront fees.

This seems to imply that affiliation is cheaper.

As for aspiring to the Presidency ... I had experience of being in that position in another life (though not in the chess arena). The Peter Principle rang true there as I found myself thrust into a role which was beyond my competence.

I would not wish to have the same happen again.

(cheers)

eclectic

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 02:15 PM
For the Drouin Open there were 164 games for which an ACF rating fee was chargeable.
At 25 cents per player per game the ACF fee was $82.
At the apparent VCA fee of 50 cents per player per game this equals $164 of which $82 would go to the ACF.

jenni
27-05-2004, 02:34 PM
Have you heard about 'profitless volume'?
While it (Schools Competition) may be the main income stream it may not even be a profit stream, after costs.

starter

I would find that strange if it were true. Victoria charges $38 per team, ACT charges $24 per team and we make a considerable profit (which of course is all put back into Junior chess).

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 02:44 PM
For the Drouin Open there were 164 games for which an ACF rating fee was chargeable.
At 25 cents per player per game the ACF fee was $82.
At the apparent VCA fee of 50 cents per player per game this equals $164 of which $82 would go to the ACF.

Bill, eclectic

Interesting how we are all willing to post but know less than 100% of the facts.

My assumption was quite different from yours.
I thought the normal rating cost (as felt by Drouin) was $5 per player in the tournament. But, because Drouin was non-affiliated, then they are charged an additional $10 per player in the tournament.
It is this $10 that should be compared to the affiliation-per-capita-levy as a starting comparison.

starter

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 02:56 PM
:eek:
I would find that strange if it were true. Victoria charges $38 per team, ACT charges $24 per team and we make a considerable profit (which of course is all put back into Junior chess).

I hope jammo is reading this thread. He told me that he is working hard to make ends meet for CV.

starter

eclectic
27-05-2004, 03:24 PM
Bill, eclectic

Interesting how we are all willing to post but know less than 100% of the facts.

My assumption was quite different from yours.
I thought the normal rating cost (as felt by Drouin) was $5 per player in the tournament. But, because Drouin was non-affiliated, then they are charged an additional $10 per player in the tournament.
It is this $10 that should be compared to the affiliation-per-capita-levy as a starting comparison.

starter
Point taken. :)

And I guess I better not apply for the positions of treasurer or auditor either should they ever become vacant.

;)

eclectic

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 03:37 PM
Point taken. :)

And I guess I better not apply for the positions of treasurer or auditor either should they ever become vacant.

;)

eclectic

Don't be easily discouraged my selective friend.

Ok. So the Presidency is out because you claim incompetence, and you can't count so Treas. and Auditor are out too.

But, you can write. :hmm:
I know...what about a Secretary job for you. :clap:

I can see jammo being pleased.

Just one last criteria-check. You don't have any conflicts of interest do you? :uhoh:

starter

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 03:42 PM
Bill, eclectic

Interesting how we are all willing to post but know less than 100% of the facts.
Knowing less than 100% of the facts has never stopped the majority of posters posting on the BB in the past. ;)



My assumption was quite different from yours.
I thought the normal rating cost (as felt by Drouin) was $5 per player in the tournament. But, because Drouin was non-affiliated, then they are charged an additional $10 per player in the tournament.
It is this $10 that should be compared to the affiliation-per-capita-levy as a starting comparison.
My excuse is that I wrongly assumed eclectic knew what he was talking about. ;)

Garvinator
27-05-2004, 03:51 PM
Knowing less than 100% of the facts has never stopped the majority of posters posting on the BB in the past. ;)
if we knew 100% of the facts, 100% of the time, then we would not need to post :whistle: ;)

Garvinator
27-05-2004, 03:54 PM
But we all understand the value of your post gg''.
It is exactly +1.
And it adds to your post count.
Nothing more, nothing less.

starter
dont you tire of this post count crap, cause i tired of it a long time ago , you should have noticed that i havent posted much in the last week. :whistle:

eclectic
27-05-2004, 04:00 PM
Knowing less than 100% of the facts has never stopped the majority of posters posting on the BB in the past. ;)


My excuse is that I wrongly assumed eclectic knew what he was talking about. ;)
This Bulletin Board is no longer technically associated with the ACF and thus its members do not necessarily have full access to pertinent operational facts about its constituent bodies and as such these same members often feel forced to indulge in fanciful speculation about Australian chess machinations. ;) :whistle:

[take everything that is posted here with a pillar of salt]

:owned: :hand:

eclectic

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2004, 04:03 PM
Don't be easily discouraged my selective friend.

Ok. So the Presidency is out because you claim incompetence, and you can't count so Treas. and Auditor are out too.

But, you can write. :hmm:
I know...what about a Secretary job for you. :clap:

I can see jammo being pleased.

Just one last criteria-check. You don't have any conflicts of interest do you? :uhoh:

starter
Of course there are two executive member positions on CV therefore if he has no conflict of interest issues (although that does not seem to be a requirement) then eclectic could be an executive member of CV.

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 05:55 PM
dont you tire of this post count crap, cause i tired of it a long time ago , you should have noticed that i havent posted much in the last week. :whistle:

ragy''

You are correct. I have lost interest in the differential which was

155 on day 82
168 on day 86
183 on day 93
170 on day 102
246 on day 109
263 on day 112
254 on day 121
237 on day 131
245 on day 134
244 on day 144
248 on day 147


:uhoh: :p


starter

ursogr8
27-05-2004, 05:57 PM
Of course there are two executive member positions on CV therefore if he has no conflict of interest issues (although that does not seem to be a requirement) then eclectic could be an executive member of CV.

And then again eclectic could be the MCC representative on the CV. :eek:

biggles
27-05-2004, 06:50 PM
The constant references to how good it is in Canberra hilite one of the pressing issues that underlies this discussion. Canberra is full of wealthy middle-class people who both aspire to and can pay for all these extra-curricular activities like chess. Gippsland is battler country with high rates of unemployment and huge distances between towns.
Our schools are very reluctant to ask parents to pay for yet another excursion...and the cost of bus hire makes regular competition impossible.
Mirboo North recently decided to send 2 rather than 4 teams to the Interschool Chess competition simply because they could not afford the bus and had to settle for a couple of cars.
Please don't take Canberra as an example of what can be achieved.
We have scarce resources, and we give our everything to the VCA competition. I do not believe that schools have the resources to support a second competition. As I said, we are going to see the destruction of our competition if this second competition gets a footing.
We live here in Gippsland and yes we are laying claim to ownership of local school chess, and it is really damaging to good chess relations to have our asset devalued by an outsider with a larger wallet.

jenni
27-05-2004, 06:59 PM
The constant references to how good it is in Canberra hilite one of the pressing issues that underlies this discussion. Canberra is full of wealthy middle-class people who both aspire to and can pay for all these extra-curricular activities like chess. Gippsland is battler country with high rates of unemployment and huge distances between towns.
Our schools are very reluctant to ask parents to pay for yet another excursion...and the cost of bus hire makes regular competition impossible.
Mirboo North recently decided to send 2 rather than 4 teams to the Interschool Chess competition simply because they could not afford the bus and had to settle for a couple of cars.
Please don't take Canberra as an example of what can be achieved.
We have scarce resources, and we give our everything to the VCA competition. I do not believe that schools have the resources to support a second competition. As I said, we are going to see the destruction of our competition if this second competition gets a footing.
We live here in Gippsland and yes we are laying claim to ownership of local school chess, and it is really damaging to good chess relations to have our asset devalued by an outsider with a larger wallet.

Canberrans get very tired of these sorts of comments as well. In the 70's Canberra was a fatcat city. After self government came along we had resources cut like crazy. Howard has made no secret that he hates Canberra and has gutted the place. In 1996 the only people who were making money were the removalists taking people out of town.

We have street kids, we have people in refuges, we have drug problems, we have lots of single mothers doing it tough - in other words a normal city. Maybe not as tough as in country areas, but not some paradise.

Some of the children who took part in our competitions were livng in refuges. Some schools were so poor they made chess sets from cardboard and bottle tops.

I tried to give a few ideas to help - based on my 8 years of running schools comps.

Now you better face facts - no-one is going to come into Gippsland on a white charger to rescue you. Complaining on the bulletin board might make you feel better, but it achieves zilch. Get off your butt and DO something, or Cordover is going to walk all over you.

JGB
27-05-2004, 07:33 PM
Anyone know why our 2 GM's will not be playng in the Aus Championship at the end of the year, start of next year? Or will they??? Sound a bit crazy if the two highest seeded Australians will not be taking part in the nations biggest chess championship of all time.

Garvinator
27-05-2004, 08:43 PM
Anyone know why our 2 GM's will not be playng in the Aus Championship at the end of the year, start of next year? Or will they??? Sound a bit crazy if the two highest seeded Australians will not be taking part in the nations biggest chess championship of all time.

JGB, you might be better off asking in this thread about the two aussie gm's:
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=16377#post16377

Alan Shore
27-05-2004, 09:29 PM
Take it easy on me mate gray...we beat the crap out of 'em last night by one point Johnny Wilkinson style.

AR

Aaaaaarghh.... so unfair... was a great game though.

Alan Shore
27-05-2004, 09:30 PM
I would be against banning any Queenslanders from this BB.

starter

I choose to take that literally. :D

jenni
28-05-2004, 09:44 AM
Our schools are very reluctant to ask parents to pay for yet another excursion...and the cost of bus hire makes regular competition impossible.
Mirboo North recently decided to send 2 rather than 4 teams to the Interschool Chess competition simply because they could not afford the bus and had to settle for a couple of cars.
.

Another idea for you (don't know why I am bothering - just in a good mood lately after dumping 3/4 of my reponsibilities :) )

Why not investigate using the internet? I would have thought even in downtrodden Gippsland you must be able to get 4 computers with access to the internet at each school? In the administrative areas/library or even somewhere near the school?

I assume you know all about ICoN - if not here is the website

http://www.knightsandbytes.com.au/icon.htm

Schools can play for free on ICoN. So you could get ID's set up eg Drouin 1, Drouin 2 and Tral 1, Tral 2 etc. Then put all the teams into swiss perfect do a draw and e-mail the schools who they are playing and set up a date and time. If you have internet access at school then do a round a week for 7 weeks. It would only take 1/2 hour at lunch time or after school. Results can be e-mailed back to you, or Alan Goldsmith might even have a way or sending you all the results. You would need to have a teacher or parent at each school, who can ensure no cheating goes on.

The main problem would be multiple teams from each school. Obviously if you had access to a computer lab with 20 machines, and Drouin has 5 teams, then it is easy, but if you really only had access to 4 machines, you could still do it by running 1 team at lunch and 1 after school, or using multiple lunch times. Does make it more of a hassle though.

This would take away all transport problems and no days off school. Primary schools might have more of a problem and would need to go to somewhere with computer access.

You would have to get Chess Victoria to OK running a zone like this, but I can't see too many problems with it. We used this method to run the Dorothy Dibley last year and it worked so well (apart from WA having trouble getting 10 machines). I thought we would have a lot more teething problems the first time, but it just all worked.

Incidentally I don't think money is the issue with Cordover - it is more that he seems to have endless enthusiasm, drive and organisational ability.

At the moment he is organising Mt Buller, running a chess empire that stretches all the way to South Australia and Tasmania and is putting feelers into the ACT, starting a new schools comp in VIctoria and organising a chess exchange and coaching trip to China. :eek:

I actually have enormous respect for all this (in spite of the fact that I have spent all year fighting him in order to contain his ambitions in other areas)

arosar
28-05-2004, 03:52 PM
(. . . . his ambitions in other areas)

Like?

AR

shaun
28-05-2004, 04:19 PM
The problem with individual v association issues is that the individual only has to look after themselves, while the association is expected to look after everybody. Consequently things like long term planning or success/failure criteria are different for each side.
In this specific case the decision to run a separate comp is (I assume) a financial decision, and if it is unsuccesful, Cordover will just walk away from organising future comps. Unfortunatley associations do not have that luxury, often being forced to run similar events in a more resource intensive way. Connected with this is the advantage that the business operator has in setting the conditions to maximise his profits (entry fees etc), while an association is morally compelled to be as inclusive as possible, thereby reducing the financial viability of their event.

As for the issue of whether to kick up a stink or not I give the following advice. When issues like this occur there is the moral decision between fighting for what you think is right versus the potential damage that any such fight may cause. This is especially true where junior chess is concerned. Having been involved in just such a fight I tried to minimise the potential damage to the wider chess community by arguing for what I thought was right, while at the same time doing it in as a low-key way as possible. The result wasn't good. The other side played dirty (very, very dirty), and claimed my unwillingness to make junior chess a battleground as evidence I didn't really want to be involved. All that my restraint prevented was me getting my message across about what I thought was right and wrong. So if you feel strongly about the issue, don't make the same mistake that I made. Go in hard and make sure that everyone is clear about both sides of the argument. Otherwise you're doomed.

jenni
28-05-2004, 04:57 PM
Like?

AR
Read the first two pages of this thread and work it out.

ChessGuru
01-06-2004, 08:12 PM
Dear David,

I am a bit disappointed that you feel this way. I don't know if my post in reply will help you at all. Perhaps it will, perhaps not.

As it happens the Interschool Zone I am running is on tomorrow in Warragul, appropriate timing I guess for this post.

David's initial concern was that a competition "established for decades" would be under threat from my new interschool zone.

1. So what?
If the main passion of yours is chess happening in Gippsland, then why does it matter WHO runs a chess event in Gippsland, surely the most important thing is that there is a well run, enjoyable event for kids there? This 'Old competition' patriotism...is that related to the people running the event, the format? What would be the difference in jumping from one ship to the other?

2. Established for "decades" is a bit misleading. Primary interschool championships were perhaps around a long time ago as well, but not when i was at school, nor until I started the Primary Comp as it now runs in about 1997. At the time there was a VJCL which was "cannibalised" by CV...

Chess Victoria ran their comp, and as Mr Bell has stated got 3 Primary Schools involved. And this was for their "decades" old compeition. I am running mine tomorrow (for the first time) and have 9 Primary Schools entered. Why is there this difference? Perhaps the CV comp is poorly promoted, tired, badly organised and schools are looking for a better product? Also the CV competition was 150km away from where I am running the Chess Kids comp! Also I am not running a Secondary Comp (yet). I don't see all that much direct competition in fact...

I completely disagree with your statement (DB) that my business "interest is NOT the development of chess in Gippsland Schools but in making money". I have a strong interest in developing chess in the Gippsland region, also have greater resources and energy to actually do so than Chess Victoria, local clubs or perhaps anyone else. I in fact do care about developing chess in your part of the world, David, and I will continue to develop the game in your region. I will do this with you or against you, but it perplexes me that you would be against the idea of my developing chess when you profess to such an extent to care passionately about developing chess in "this part of the world". Why, in the development process, can I not make a living at the same time?

So what is the problem? Am I trying to maximise profits? Am I undermining the CV income stream?

I charge 50 cents more per player for the competitions I run than CV. I also provide 4 times the number of medals on the day and certificates for everyone (which CV does not do). I also offer a progression to a higher level of competition. I think that value for money the event I put on is much better than the CV event.

Some interesting facts:
1. The interschool chess director for Chess Victoria (Peter Caissa) has a direct conflict of interest as well. He too runs a chess business (similar to Chess Kids) and his own Interschool Competitions. He recevies calls relating to interschool competitions and uses his position to gain commercial advantage over my business (and others), he also uses his position of "authority" in CV to attempt to persuade schools not to use my services.

Why is this not a problem?

2. Chess Victoria LOST MONEY on the 2003 Interschool season. Don't ask me how, who or why, but surely if competitions that I run replace the CV competitions then I am acutally assisting the association??? I believe this year's comp is scheduled to run at break-even, but we are well behind budget and will lose money again.

Jenni, i know that ACTJCL make money on the interschool, as do every other state in Australia. Victoria perhaps isn't as competant...we don't! Pathetic i know. So Mr. Eclectic with your vast knowledge of all things Chess Victorian...this event most certainly is not the Primary Revenue Raising Source and affiliation fees won't be going anywhere if it folds.

Starter - you have given me a good idea...why not get CV to outsource the Interschool. It is clear that we (as an organisation) are not competant to organise it properly...i believe that it would be in the best interest of the state to sell it to Chess Kids, then there would again be just one "Official" State Interschool Championships - which would make a number of people happy wouldn't it?

BTW, Ian, there is now an official Australian Transfer Champion title, created by the ACF in April of this year!

Ok, i'm off to bed..i have to get up early to drive to Warragul in the morning to expand my empire. :D

Alan Shore
01-06-2004, 11:21 PM
BTW, Ian, there is now an official Australian Transfer Champion title, created by the ACF in April of this year!

I take it you mean 'champions' and I wasn't aware of this...

Regarding Australian Transfer, Igor Bjelobrek, Justin Tan and Julian McDonald are in a complete class of their own. My next best players of the game include Ronald Scott, Vincent Lau, Andrew Meldrum, Ronald Yu, Sean Karita and perhaps myself. (I may have forgotten some names, apologies if this is the case but after these people there is another rather large gap to other players).

Bill Gletsos
01-06-2004, 11:37 PM
I take it you mean 'champions' and I wasn't aware of this...
No he means champion.

Alan Shore
01-06-2004, 11:39 PM
No he means champion.

Could you elaborate a little more? How can there only be one when you require two players for a team?

Bill Gletsos
01-06-2004, 11:58 PM
Could you elaborate a little more? How can there only be one when you require two players for a team?
You want the best transfer player not the best transfer team. As such you can have the players change team members.

Alan Shore
02-06-2004, 12:06 AM
You want the best transfer player not the best transfer team. As such you can have the players change team members.

That's a pretty stupid concept.. a fantastic transfer player will still get smashed if his partner is a complete noob, i.e. not knowing when to sit, saccing all pieces for no compensation etc. You really should amend it to a team.. and if you're concerned about having two high-rated players together it means nothing, it's quite easy (and I've done it before) to completely bash a team of two GM's who are transfer noobs, with a partner who understands basic transfer principles.

boardumb
02-06-2004, 02:30 AM
I take it you mean 'champions' and I wasn't aware of this... yes that was my impression. there was a tournament last year (ahh found the bulletin - http://www.auschess.org.au/bulletins/acfb223.htm ) titled the Australian Transfer Chess Championships which Bjelobrk and McDonald won as a team. Unfortunately justin didn't show up to partner me and give them a run for their money :P


Regarding Australian Transfer, Igor Bjelobrek, Justin Tan and Julian McDonald are in a complete class of their own. My next best players of the game include Ronald Scott, Vincent Lau, Andrew Meldrum, Ronald Yu, Sean Karita and perhaps myself. (I may have forgotten some names, apologies if this is the case but after these people there is another rather large gap to other players). i don't know about now, but had you made the list a year or two ago i definitely would've put neil wright into the top class with the other 3. i haven't really been playing in the last year or two so my name probably doesn't belong there anymore.


You want the best transfer player not the best transfer team. As such you can have the players change team members. its a pretty contentious issue really. on one hand, hypothetically, if igy was the best out of the top 3 you described, but jules and justin paired up at a champs they'd be almost unbeatable and the objectively best team may not have been found, but if you choose to only have one top player, the partnerships with players that aren't in contention can affect the final result.

personally though, i'm just happy that transfer is getting some spotlight.
i haven't played tournament chess for a while, but i'd like to be able to play in a tournament (weekender/championship/whatever) where one evening there's a transfer tournament attached, prizemoney or otherwise.

Edit: something that i thought about afterwards is that switching partners for each player is going to make the tournament a lot longer (or if you only play with each partner once a lot more random). On FICS, the choice was to go for a top player, and a partner switching tournament was instituted. these tournaments with usually 16-32 players were split up into several pools for a round robin going into a knockout. these tournaments still took some 4 hrs to do.

ursogr8
02-06-2004, 08:06 AM
Starter - you have given me a good idea...why not get CV to outsource the Interschool. It is clear that we (as an organisation) are not competant to organise it properly...i believe that it would be in the best interest of the state to sell it to Chess Kids, then there would again be just one "Official" State Interschool Championships - which would make a number of people happy wouldn't it?



hi CG
Did I suggest outsourcing the Interschool? Maybe I did. But what I am more likely to have suggested is putting Districts up for tender for 3-year periods.

But then again, as you claim, if CV are not making money from their market-share at the moment then the same thought will occur to them without me having to lobby. In other words, CV will need to find an exit strategy.

starter

eclectic
02-06-2004, 08:28 AM
Starter - you have given me a good idea...why not get CV to outsource the Interschool. It is clear that we (as an organisation) are not competant to organise it properly...i believe that it would be in the best interest of the state to sell it to Chess Kids, then there would again be just one "Official" State Interschool Championships - which would make a number of people happy wouldn't it?


Dear Mr. ChessGuru

Now I would have thought that for such an outsourcing CV would call for tenders so that Peter Caissa and Michael Gluzman and other chess business operators can throw their hat in the ring too.

Isn't that how the free market works ?

:hmm:

eclectic

ursogr8
02-06-2004, 08:59 AM
Dear Mr. ChessGuru

Now I would have thought that for such an outsourcing CV would call for tenders so that Peter Caissa and Michael Gluzman and other chess business operators can throw their hat in the ring too.

Isn't that how the free market works ?

:hmm:

eclectic


Eclectic

What actually is CV selling, or putting out to tender, under your theory?
Does it distill down to the winning school having entry to the national schools event at the EOY?
If so, then from a schools point of view, very few can contemplate winning.

But if CG counter-offers 'every child wins a certificate, and there is a mulla prize for the best school', maybe CG does not even have to bother about tendering. The market just follows him to the pipers tune.


starter

eclectic
02-06-2004, 09:18 AM
Eclectic

What actually is CV selling, or putting out to tender, under your theory?
Does it distill down to the winning school having entry to the national schools event at the EOY?
If so, then from a schools point of view, very few can contemplate winning.

But if CG counter-offers 'every child wins a certificate, and there is a mulla prize for the best school', maybe CG does not even have to bother about tendering. The market just follows him to the pipers tune.


starter
and would other victorian chess businesses NOT be making their offers as attractive by lacing them with appropriate incentives?

as for what chess victoria is selling or putting out to tender i would have thought naming rights at least.

so if chess world or chess kids wants to conduct the primary and secondary schools' championships then chess victoria would receive a naming rights fee from either or both of those organisations (nb they may legally be separate entities)

eclectic

jenni
02-06-2004, 09:25 AM
Eclectic

What actually is CV selling, or putting out to tender, under your theory?
Does it distill down to the winning school having entry to the national schools event at the EOY?
If so, then from a schools point of view, very few can contemplate winning.

But if CG counter-offers 'every child wins a certificate, and there is a mulla prize for the best school', maybe CG does not even have to bother about tendering. The market just follows him to the pipers tune.


starter

Every school "hopes' to win and hope is what keeps our human race going. :)

I've run some playoffs under our rules at the primary level, where you wonder why you are bothering because one team so outclasses the other. The little kids turn up with parents in tow, totally believing they have a chance and your job becomes one of running the playoff in such away that even after they lose 8-0, they go away with self esteem intact feeling they always had a chance.

By the way every child in our competitions gets a ribbon and those who make it to the finals get a second one. Even with ribbons costing between 50c and 75c each, we still make multiple thousands out of our schools comps.

However we don't pay for venues or officials. We run at either a school or a club and get venues for free and our officials all donate their time. That V word again.

ursogr8
02-06-2004, 09:44 AM
and would other victorian chess businesses NOT be making their offers as attractive by lacing them with appropriate incentives?

as for what chess victoria is selling or putting out to tender i would have thought naming rights at least.

so if chess world or chess kids wants to conduct the primary and secondary schools' championships then chess victoria would receive a naming rights fee from either or both of those organisations (nb they may legally be separate entities)

eclectic

eclectic

um, er, ah

Naming rights eh?
Just like the GOVT sells its naming rights, for metroplolitan railways) to o/s consortiums eh?
Only problem is eclectic, sometimes you have to pay to have the naming rights taken off your hands. For example our transport systems.

Tell me, in small words, why CG needs to pay anything. He is already killing the opposition just with marketing flair. He doesn't need to buy market share from CV.

starter

ursogr8
02-06-2004, 09:47 AM
However we don't pay for venues or officials. We run at either a school or a club and get venues for free and our officials all donate their time. That V word again.

jenni
And V's are much appreciated.
But, sustainibility is the risk with V's.
Are you the same jenni who was posting a few months back about 'chucking it in'? :eek:
Good to see you still around, and proudly a V. :clap: :clap:

starter

Bill Gletsos
02-06-2004, 10:54 AM
That's a pretty stupid concept.. a fantastic transfer player will still get smashed if his partner is a complete noob, i.e. not knowing when to sit, saccing all pieces for no compensation etc. You really should amend it to a team.. and if you're concerned about having two high-rated players together it means nothing, it's quite easy (and I've done it before) to completely bash a team of two GM's who are transfer noobs, with a partner who understands basic transfer principles.
Well it was ChessGuru who moved the motion regarding the Transfer Champion title.
The question was asked about whether it should be champion of champions and David said it should be champion. I'm fairly certain the reason I gave was the one he gave, however I'm sure he will clarify it if I am wrong.

Alan Shore
02-06-2004, 11:42 AM
Yes boardumb, I thought I had forgotten someone, Neil Wright (I could also say Justin Foo but no one would know who he is, hehe). You're dead right, about 1-2 years ago he was up with the top 3 but not so sure now, although he has been playing lately so he may regain that top form again.

Well Bill, anyway, I think you should reconsider that title to include 2 players, transfer's a team game and a win is generated by having a god team not one good individual.

jenni
02-06-2004, 11:51 AM
jenni
And V's are much appreciated.
But, sustainibility is the risk with V's.
Are you the same jenni who was posting a few months back about 'chucking it in'? :eek:
Good to see you still around, and proudly a V. :clap: :clap:

starter

Sustainability is of course a problem. However if you have a plan to continually bring in "new blood", then it is less of a risk. The people running and working in the primary schools comps now are totally different to the ones in 1997, but it is still running effectively.

We use our development squads as a way of sourcing new volunteers, as they are the more committed parents.

Also we are shifting more responsibility to the schools. Where we find an enthusiastic school and teacher, we give them some responsibility for running a zone. We also ask for volunteers at each zone to help with score-taking, etc. In fact one year I ran a roster and as each school registered they picked a job - filling water jugs, score table whatever. Schools are used to taking this sort of responsibility. District swimming and athletics carnivals are actually run by the schools, not by peak bodies. While they are feeling overloaded and don't want too much more responsibility, I think are quite happy to do jobs on the day when they are there supervising the kids anyway.

I did give up a lot of stuff e.g. Libby Smith is now ACTJCL president, however I have a more manageable workload now and am enjoying the bits I am doing e.g. High School comps, NECG, managing overseas team, a few weekend comps, running a chess club at school - just enough to stop me getting bored. :)

ChessGuru
02-06-2004, 04:49 PM
Well Bill, anyway, I think you should reconsider that title to include 2 players, transfer's a team game and a win is generated by having a god team not one good individual.

The rational for having Champion Title, singular as opposed to a plural, is that it maintains flexibility. You can have an individual Champion, or you can have an event which is run as Teams in which case the Title would be a shared title or just held by 2 players.

I have run Transfer events both ways, with Single winners and also with fixed Teams. Both are suitable events but more so when you have a uniform standard of players... BTW although I don't play online bug I'd like to consider myself up there just behind Igy and Jules in the Transfer Rankings! You can ask their opinion of course...

To update the interschool debate. We had 8 schools participate in the Interschool in Gippsland today with nearly 80 kids. Everyone went home buzzing and keen to come back again next term for another one! We also got a short interview on ABC radio....hopefully this is enough to prove my dedication to promoting chess in the area! What more can I do? I will happily follow up any suggestions.

Interesting suggestions Starter. Perhaps at the next CV meeting I'll ask how much they will pay me to incorporate the CV Interschool into the comps that I am running! Being on the executive I'd probably cut them a fairly cheap deal...if they gave me $1000 I'd run the whole show for them.

ChessGuru
02-06-2004, 04:54 PM
Dear Mr. ChessGuru

Now I would have thought that for such an outsourcing CV would call for tenders so that Peter Caissa and Michael Gluzman and other chess business operators can throw their hat in the ring too.

Isn't that how the free market works ?

eclectic

Sorry, I thought they were trying to move from an inefficient, tired, poorly run competition to something better?

Btw, Michael Gluzman is no longer invovled in chess and has not been for at least a year now.

Alan Shore
02-06-2004, 05:03 PM
The rational for having Champion Title, singular as opposed to a plural, is that it maintains flexibility. You can have an individual Champion, or you can have an event which is run as Teams in which case the Title would be a shared title or just held by 2 players.

I have run Transfer events both ways, with Single winners and also with fixed Teams. Both are suitable events but more so when you have a uniform standard of players... BTW although I don't play online bug I'd like to consider myself up there just behind Igy and Jules in the Transfer Rankings! You can ask their opinion of course...

I can see how you arrived at such a conclusion on the basis of a uniform standard of players in which case it would be acceptable to have a single champion. However more often than not we don't live in a perfect world of players with uniform strength, in which case the stronger player could be seriously disadvantaged by having a noob partner who gets himself mated in a few moves (despite being told by his partner not to move that f-pawn..) thereby undermining any one player's true claim to the title of champion. Not only this but quite simply the styles of some partners can conflict and they'll never work well together. I'll always maintain it's a team affair and should be treated thus.

And, well, I have no idea what your strength at transfer is.. I'll ask the aforementioned peoples to give their opinion of you if I see them :p
If you ever want to play online FICS is the best server to play transfer.

biggles
04-06-2004, 03:16 PM
Dear David (Cordover)
I spent the first 25 years of my adult life as a preacher...and the politics of the church was interminable, and a source of great weariness.
I decided that in the second half of my life I would have done with politics and find something that was beyong politics, self-interest, and money.
So I reignited an old passion for chess. I found myself meeting new people and making new friends, and I thought to myself..this is how the church should be...I like this chess church.
To my dismay I find that the poison of politics inside the chess church is far worse than anything inside the church of the saviour.
But to get to the point.
The solution to the Interschool Chess question does not consist of destroying the competition we have, but of working for its reformation.
You booked 9 schools around Warragul...that may well explain why only 3 schools made the journey to Stratford. I am pretty dismayed by this. I know that the Principal of Stratford, who is passionate about chess, was likewise disappointed that so few schools turned up. This can only lead to demoralisation of the competition; principals like her are likely to say next time.."why bother?" If she knew that this had happened she would have every right to be bitter. She committed time and resources to the competition and it appears that her efforts have been undermined by the alternative comp that you set up in Warragul. Sure it is easier for schools in Warragul to go to your competition but that means that the bonding between towns, and schools that we have spent 3 years developing has been torn asunder.
I feel that I now have to call a summit of Gippsland schools to expose what is going on. They should know that your competition is not the "official" competition, does not have the blessing of the VCA, does not lead down to Melbourne to play in the "State Finals" and is not supported by the established chess community of Gippsland.
It is possible that this airing of our linen will lead schools to the conclusion that chess is just another 'dirty' business with which they want no part.
We will see happen what I predicted would happen...the destruction of chess in this part of Victoria.

David Bell

Alan Shore
04-06-2004, 03:38 PM
To my dismay I find that the poison of politics inside the chess church is far worse than anything inside the church.

Not surprising but politics exist within nearly all organisations no matter how small.. I'd challenge anyone to find something devoid of internal politics.


I know that the Principal of Stratford, who is passionate about chess, was likewise disappointed that so few schools turned up. This can only lead to demoralisation of the competition; principals like her are likely to say next time.."why bother?" If she knew that this had happened she would have every right to be bitter. She committed time and resources to the competition and it appears that her efforts have been undermined by the alternative comp that you set up in Warragul.

So often things begun with good intentions can be destroyed by greed.. I will say that school administrators would have no patience for this sort of thing and would likely leave their interests in chess by the wayside in pursuit of time and energies better spent elsewhere.



It is possible that this airing of our linen will lead schools to the conclusion that chess is just another 'dirty' business with which they want no part. We will see happen what I predicted would happen...the destruction of chess in this part of Victoria.

What is clear this will have to be sorted out and quickly or its the chess that shall suffer. There's no problem with Cordover making money out of it provided he doesn't leave a trail of destruction behind him in pursuit of the glory ahead - there has to be some degree of responsibility. I've heard tales of questionable business practices involving trying to poach schools, so what are we all to think if we don't see signs of a resolution with the larger chess community?

Ian Rout
04-06-2004, 04:06 PM
To my dismay I find that the poison of politics inside the chess church is far worse than anything inside the church of the saviour.

I have some difficulty believing this. About equally bad would sound more plausible.

In any event the ChessGuru Cup seems to be about economics or business (at which the church is also not without proficiency), not politics, unless there are undercurrents that we are not hearing.

Feldgrau
04-06-2004, 08:39 PM
Dear David (Cordover)
I spent the first 25 years of my adult life as a preacher...and the politics of the church was interminable, and a source of great weariness.
I decided that in the second half of my life I would have done with politics and find something that was beyong politics, self-interest, and money.
So I reignited an old passion for chess. I found myself meeting new people and making new friends, and I thought to myself..this is how the church should be...I like this chess church.
David Bell


Wow. You set yourself up for a huge dissapointment.

Welcome to a world of self interest, petty power struggles, greed, crimes and misdemenanours that don't bear repeating. Good people get washed out after a certain time fighting such a system and tend to walk away.

PHAT
05-06-2004, 02:00 PM
Good people get washed out after a certain time fighting such a system and tend to walk away.

"Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their chess communtiy."

ChessGuru
18-06-2004, 06:14 PM
A quick summary comparison between Chess Kids and CV Interschool events in the past 3 months:
Chess Kids Victoria - Term 2, 2004
Primary Qualifiers: 15 zones
Secondary Qualifiers: 3 zones
Cancellations: 1 zone
Total Players: 1201 players
Total Schools: 123 schools

Chess Victoria Inc - Term 2, 2004
Primary Qualifiers: 4 zones
Secondary Qualifiers: 6 zones
Cancellations: 8 zones
Total Players: 600 players
Total Schools: 53 schools

So which is the "real" competition?

Bill Gletsos
18-06-2004, 06:50 PM
David,
Can you elucidate on how the $10,000 prize package that is mentioned is made up.
What amounts equate to cash, trophies, coaching, etc?

jenni
19-06-2004, 11:09 AM
A quick summary comparison between Chess Kids and CV Interschool events in the past 3 months:
Chess Kids Victoria - Term 2, 2004
Primary Qualifiers: 15 zones
Secondary Qualifiers: 3 zones
Cancellations: 1 zone
Total Players: 1201 players
Total Schools: 123 schools

Chess Victoria Inc - Term 2, 2004
Primary Qualifiers: 4 zones
Secondary Qualifiers: 6 zones
Cancellations: 8 zones
Total Players: 600 players
Total Schools: 53 schools

So which is the "real" competition?

Unfortunately I think this was always going to happen. David is enthusiastic and well organised and that is all that is needed. I do not believe it is a function of prizes. We had 850 kids playing (with a participation rate of more than 50% of primary schools) in the Open primary in term 2. High schools start in term 3. We offer trophies and ribbons and the ability to represent our state. Schools embrace chess with enthusiasm, but there does have to be an initial "marketing" phase to get schools interested and David is obviously succeeding in this.

There is no reason why ChessVictoria can't be equally successful, in fact David's marketing can swell CV's numbers. However they need to co-operate not go head on. Schools probably won't want to compete in two comps in the same week. I suspect if they are not prepared to co-ordinate, then David's will be the one to succeed.

Garvinator
19-06-2004, 11:24 AM
interesting that cv and davids efforts are going head on when david is a member of the cv committee.

shaun
19-06-2004, 02:24 PM
I suspect if they are not prepared to co-ordinate, then David's will be the one to succeed.
But for only as long as David can be bothered, then it will be back to the VCA to fill the void.

Bill Gletsos
19-06-2004, 03:50 PM
Unfortunately I think this was always going to happen. David is enthusiastic and well organised and that is all that is needed. I do not believe it is a function of prizes. We had 850 kids playing (with a participation rate of more than 50% of primary schools) in the Open primary in term 2. High schools start in term 3. We offer trophies and ribbons and the ability to represent our state. Schools embrace chess with enthusiasm, but there does have to be an initial "marketing" phase to get schools interested and David is obviously succeeding in this.

There is no reason why ChessVictoria can't be equally successful, in fact David's marketing can swell CV's numbers. However they need to co-operate not go head on. Schools probably won't want to compete in two comps in the same week. I suspect if they are not prepared to co-ordinate, then David's will be the one to succeed.
One would suspect David's motivation is that he can make a buck out of it and not for any altrustic reason.
Of course it beggers the question why would he be prepared to co-operate with CV when his is appreantly the more successful.
The only possible reason I can see that he may wish to co-operate would be if he can make a larger amount of bucks out of it.

ursogr8
23-06-2004, 08:16 AM
One would suspect David's motivation is that he can make a buck out of it and not for any altrustic reason.
Of course it beggers the question why would he be prepared to co-operate with CV when his is appreantly the more successful.
The only possible reason I can see that he may wish to co-operate would be if he can make a larger amount of bucks out of it.

The ChessGuru has put forward his bid to get CV junior chess out of the doldrums only to find that CV (EXECUTIVE meeting) has a CoI. So, he could not get a seconder to get debate underway.

Now CV is back in rethink mode for the next EXECUTIVE meeting. Should they do a Jeff Kennett and split Melbourne into 5 zones and invite tenders for each to run Interschool? Jeff would set minimum benchmarks like
> must use CV letterhead
>> School contact list remains the property of CV
>>> titles remain the property of CV
>>>> FINALs to be conducted by CV, and not out-sourced.
And Jeff would set CSOs, just like RAIL and Telstra have (and Latham would have the Banks adopt).
Best bid wins each zone.

My guess is that CG might win two zones (let us call them Upper Guruland, and Lower Guruland). But would this stop him pursuing his competitive commercial ambitions in the zones he is not allocated. Would he be satisfied with only LG and UG?

What do you say CG? Open access to LG and UG (so you increase your market share of those), but restrain yourself in the other boondocks? Fair deal? :hmm:

starter

ps When and if CG agrees to a carve-up, then it would be time to talk turkey about 'licence fees'. :eek:
Which of course can be positive or negative, depending on leverage. :uhoh: :hmm:

jenni
23-06-2004, 10:59 AM
But for only as long as David can be bothered, then it will be back to the VCA to fill the void.

This is a fair comment. In thirty years time David will be retired in some tax haven and the state organisation will still be running competitions. :)

ursogr8
26-06-2004, 11:43 AM
This is a fair comment. In thirty years time David will be retired in some tax haven and the state organisation will still be running competitions. :)

Good news from Mexico.

As a consequence of David's proposal not finding a seconder, Chess VICTORIA have nevertheless startered a review of franchising arrangements amongst the seven competing commercial coaching organisers here.

Gazza has mapped out a new structure for schools to qualify for the REGIONAL playoffs and for the STATE TITLE.

I would suggest hold the presses, but in true Mexican style the details may take a while to be made public.
It does look like a positive outcome though.

starter