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View Full Version : Hmm....what's black's plan?



Zwischenzug
14-06-2007, 12:22 PM
Hi everyone, I had some very entertaining games at the NSW Open last week. In one game in particular, though I won it, I would like to look at one position from it which I absolutely didn't know what to do. In this game, I was very happy with how I handled the opening, but at this point I didn't know how to continue.

What should black's plan be here? What is the strongest plan?

R3RNK1/4Q1PP/2PB2N1/PP1P1Bp1/4Ppn1/1pn1p3/pbppb2q/1k4rr b - - 20 19
P.S. If you saw my game in the NSW open thread, you would have seen that I blundered here because of a very dubious move.

Aaron Guthrie
14-06-2007, 12:39 PM
should black's plan be here? What is the strongest plan?Calculate to mate! But I ought be essaying so I'll just say- Bxg4 looks good. E.g. fantasy line 1...Bxg4 2.fxg4 Nxe4 3.Qd3 Nec3+ 4.bxc3 Nxc3+ 5.Kc2 Qxa2+! 6.Nxa2 Rxa2+ 7.Kc1 Bb2+ 8.Kc2 Ba3 mate!? I'm not checking this on a board so apologies if I have put an illegal move in or something :)

edit-OK so Bb2+ was the illegal move :)

Garvinator
14-06-2007, 01:25 PM
Calculate to mate! But I ought be essaying so I'll just say- Bxg4 looks good. E.g. fantasy line 1...Bxg4 2.fxg4 Nxe4 3.Qd3 Nec3+ 4.bxc3 Nxc3+ 5.Kc2 Qxa2+! 6.Nxa2 Rxa2+ 7.Kc1 Bb2+ 8.Kc2 Ba3 mate!? I'm not checking this on a board so apologies if I have put an illegal move in or something :)

edit-OK so Bb2+ was the illegal move :)
Instead of 4. ... Nxc3, how about 4. ... Na3+ 5. Ka1 Bxc3 winning the queen.

Aaron Guthrie
14-06-2007, 01:29 PM
Instead of 4. ... Nxc3, how about 4. ... Na3+ 5. Ka1 Bxc3 winning the queen.Or even 5...bxc3? I guess White interposes on d4 and so its not as strong.

Garvinator
14-06-2007, 01:42 PM
Or even 5...bxc3? I guess White interposes on d4 and so its not as strong.
Huh I dont understand, please clarify or re check :)

Aaron Guthrie
14-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Huh I dont understand, please clarify or re check :)I was referring to my own suggestion, so if 5..bxc3 then 6.Bd4.

But then again maybe something like 6...ed4 and what does white do? 7.Rh2 Nxc4 8.Qxc4 d3 looks mighty strong.

Spiny Norman
14-06-2007, 02:13 PM
After 1...Bxg4 white has 2.Bxb5 instead of 2.fxg4

I prefer 2.Bxb5 because it removes one of the attacking pieces near White's castled king, plus White's white-squared bishop is a "bad" bishop. Not sure if it holds up tactically though.

Aaron Guthrie
14-06-2007, 02:23 PM
After 1...Bxg4 white has 2.Bxb5 instead of 2.fxg4

I prefer 2.Bxb5 because it removes one of the attacking pieces near White's castled king, plus White's white-squared bishop is a "bad" bishop. Not sure if it holds up tactically though.Details details, I did call it a fantasy line after all :)

I agree its a better move, after 2.Bxb5 black can try Bxf3, getting 3 pawns for the piece, or 2 pawns and a rook for 2 pieces, but neither looks anywhere near as promising as the attack he has after fxg4.

Igor_Goldenberg
14-06-2007, 03:50 PM
Details details, I did call it a fantasy line after all :)

I agree its a better move, after 2.Bxb5 black can try Bxf3, getting 3 pawns for the piece, or 2 pawns and a rook for 2 pieces, but neither looks anywhere near as promising as the attack he has after fxg4.

1...Bxg4 does look good to me (even after 2.Bxb5 Bxf3). Most important, I don't see a decent alternative as the attack on quenside would be very slow without this tactical resource.

Aaron Guthrie
14-06-2007, 03:57 PM
1...Bxg4 does look good to me (even after 2.Bxb5 Bxf3). Most important, I don't see a decent alternative as the attack on quenside would be very slow without this tactical resource.Taking another look at it the option of getting the three pawns looks and it looks very strong, e.g. 2.Bxb5 Bxf3 3.Bd3 Bxe4 (intending c4 or Bxd5) and now if 4.Bxe4 Nxe4 5.Qc2 f5 and it looks like c4 can be prepared quickly and will be strong, and aside from that all the pieces are aiming right at the king. And if 4.Qc2 then Bxd5 looks strong and grabs material.

MichaelBaron
14-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Calculate to mate! But I ought be essaying so I'll just say- Bxg4 looks good. E.g. fantasy line 1...Bxg4 2.fxg4 Nxe4 3.Qd3 Nec3+ 4.bxc3 Nxc3+ 5.Kc2 Qxa2+! 6.Nxa2 Rxa2+ 7.Kc1 Bb2+ 8.Kc2 Ba3 mate!? I'm not checking this on a board so apologies if I have put an illegal move in or something :)

edit-OK so Bb2+ was the illegal move :)

I agree totally..Bxg4 looks very strong!

Basil
14-06-2007, 05:26 PM
Bruce, I would love to comment, but rather, I confess that after staring at the board in conjuction with Bruce's fantasy line, I couldn't work out how:
a) black could take anything on g4 because his own knight occupied the square, and
b) his bishops couldn't take anything anyway, except a lowly pawn way over on b5

and then the penny dropped. I'm leaving now :wall:

Kevin Bonham
14-06-2007, 09:26 PM
After 1...Bxg4!?, 2.fxg4 looks better to me than 2.Bxb5, eg 2.fxg4 Nxe4 3.Qd3 Nec3+ 4.Kc2 Nxd1 and white has B+N for R+2P. Sure black has the h-file but I don't think White is by any means smashed here.

Given that White will always be tied to the h-file, 1...h5 to put a sock in White's kingside attack for a while without sacrificing anything in the process (I consider giving up two pieces for R+2P to be a sacrifice :lol: ) deserves consideration. I'm not sure it shuts white up long-term though. Maybe ...Bxg4 really is best.

Aaron Guthrie
14-06-2007, 09:37 PM
After 1...Bxg4!?, 2.fxg4 looks better to me than 2.Bxb5, eg 2.fxg4 Nxe4 3.Qd3 Nec3+ 4.Kc2 Nxd1 and white has B+N for R+2P. Sure black has the h-file but I don't think White is by any means smashed here.

Given that White will always be tied to the h-file, 1...h5 to put a sock in White's kingside attack for a while without sacrificing anything in the process (I consider giving up two pieces for R+2P to be a sacrifice :lol: ) deserves consideration. I'm not sure it shuts white up long-term though. Maybe ...Bxg4 really is best.Btw the reason I chose Qd3 was because it allowed my (illegal) fantasy mate. 4.Kc2!? maybe 4...Na3+ 5.ba3 Qa3 with Nxa2 coming looks strong. Or maybe not- 6.Rd2! and I dont see a killer (Qb2 and Qa2 dont work :()

Garvinator
15-06-2007, 12:45 AM
Can I ruin this with some computer analysis now?

Aaron Guthrie
15-06-2007, 01:20 AM
Can I ruin this with some computer analysis now?I vote yes.

Spiny Norman
15-06-2007, 07:49 AM
Taking another look at it the option of getting the three pawns looks and it looks very strong, e.g. 2.Bxb5 Bxf3 3.Bd3 Bxe4 (intending c4 or Bxd5) and now if 4.Bxe4 Nxe4 5.Qc2 f5 and it looks like c4 can be prepared quickly and will be strong, and aside from that all the pieces are aiming right at the king. And if 4.Qc2 then Bxd5 looks strong and grabs material.
Instead of 3.Bd3 ... what about 3.Bc6 ... the rook on a8 isn't going anywhere soon ... and when removed, that's a 2nd attacker gone.

Igor_Goldenberg
15-06-2007, 10:04 AM
Instead of 3.Bd3 ... what about 3.Bc6 ... the rook on a8 isn't going anywhere soon ... and when removed, that's a 2nd attacker gone.

Black can either play 3...Bxe4+ followed by 4...Bxh1 (keeping 3 pawns for a piece) of 3...Nxe4 (which sems stronger, but requires some calculation). Say 4.Qd3 can be met by 4...Ng3, attacking rook h1 and threatening to win a queen by Be4.. Other squares for a queen do not look very good either. And black alwayls has an option to simplify into 3 pawns for a piece position.

Capablanca-Fan
15-06-2007, 10:06 AM
Instead of 3.Bd3 ... what about 3.Bc6 ... the rook on a8 isn't going anywhere soon ... and when removed, that's a 2nd attacker gone.
It's a fair idea, but I doubt that these attackers will be needed after 3... Bxe4+ 4. Ka1 Bxh1 5. Rxh1 Qa6 6. Bxa8 Qxa8 7. Rd1 (otherwise Black takes on d5 with four good pawns for the piece) c4 where this pawn joins the attack with good effect (showing that White has lost a defender in the B which was halting this advance).

Kevin Bonham
15-06-2007, 01:31 PM
It's actually a very tricky position. Can hardly blame Black for being unsure what to do!

Zwischenzug
15-06-2007, 01:43 PM
It's actually a very tricky position. Can hardly blame Black for being unsure what to do!

Yes, it was a tricky position. I played the very silly 1...Qa3?! here thinking that it is clever, only to greatly regret it afterwards.

Igor_Goldenberg
15-06-2007, 02:43 PM
Yes, it was a tricky position. I played the very silly 1...Qa3?! here thinking that it is clever, only to greatly regret it afterwards.
Let me guess... White responded with 2.Bxb5:( ?

Zwischenzug
15-06-2007, 02:50 PM
Let me guess... White responded with 2.Bxb5:( ?

Thats right. After that my Queen retreated to a7 and then off goes my bishop.

Aaron Guthrie
16-06-2007, 12:27 PM
I checked it with compy, there is another good first move if anyone wants to try and find it human style.

Capablanca-Fan
16-06-2007, 10:21 PM
Yes, it was a tricky position. I played the very silly 1...Qa3?! here thinking that it is clever, only to greatly regret it afterwards.
It doesn't actually threaten anything anyway.

This looks like some sort of dream Benko Gambit from Black's perspective. It's madness for White to castle long.

Capablanca-Fan
16-06-2007, 10:22 PM
I checked it with compy, there is another good first move if anyone wants to try and find it human style.
What does it think about ...Bxg4?

Aaron Guthrie
16-06-2007, 10:39 PM
What does it think about ...Bxg4?It thought about =, but its lines were not very impressive. I think following what it thought for best moves ended up with 3.Qd3 Nec3 4.Kc2 Nxd1. That's from memory. It had another interesting try on move 3, but it didn't seem to quite work. If no-one minds I can post what it thought on move 1, and also the interesting try at move 3.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-06-2007, 12:14 AM
This looks like some sort of dream Benko Gambit from Black's perspective. It's madness for White to castle long.
Not sure. If not for Bxg4, it's not easy for black to break through.

Aaron Guthrie
17-06-2007, 12:21 AM
Not sure. If not for Bxg4, it's not easy for black to break through.There *is* another strong first move, but the computer found it so as yet I haven't posted it.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-06-2007, 12:22 AM
There *is* another strong first move, but the computer found it so as yet I haven't posted it.

Yes, there is, but it never occurred to me (and took some time for computer to come up with).

Aaron Guthrie
17-06-2007, 12:26 AM
This looks like some sort of dream Benko Gambit from Black's perspective. It's madness for White to castle long.Nothing wrong with a bit of madness. I once got away with castling long on the black side of a sozin where I had already played b5-b4 and the white bishop had made it to c6! This was against a strong player and the game ended in a draw. :)

Zwischenzug
18-06-2007, 11:42 AM
I have no objections to some comp. analysis if anyone wants to post it.

Spiny Norman
18-06-2007, 04:52 PM
Okay then, what about 1...Nc3+ ... if White doesn't accept, then Black wins the exchange ... if White does accept, then after 2.bxc3 bxc3, White faces some unpleasantness. If 3.Qxc3 then Black can move the Nf6 with a discovered attack on the queen and Black then controls the long diagonal. If the queen moves away, then the pawn controls b2, and can perhaps move to c2 to open the long diagonal. The b-file is now open too, so perhaps there are longer term opportunities for Black?

Aaron Guthrie
18-06-2007, 05:06 PM
Okay then, what about 1...Nc3+ ... if White doesn't accept, then Black wins the exchange ... if White does accept, then after 2.bxc3 bxc3, White faces some unpleasantness. If 3.Qxc3 then Black can move the Nf6 with a discovered attack on the queen and Black then controls the long diagonal. If the queen moves away, then the pawn controls b2, and can perhaps move to c2 to open the long diagonal. The b-file is now open too, so perhaps there are longer term opportunities for Black?Nc3+! good move. 3.Qe2 and now what for Black to demonstrate the strenght of Nc3+? Answer in White 3...Rb4! intending Qa4 and c4.

Capablanca-Fan
19-06-2007, 03:49 AM
It thought about =, but its lines were not very impressive. I think following what it thought for best moves ended up with 3.Qd3 Nec3 4.Kc2 Nxd1. That's from memory. It had another interesting try on move 3, but it didn't seem to quite work. If no-one minds I can post what it thought on move 1, and also the interesting try at move 3.

What about my suggested line in #19?

Igor_Goldenberg
19-06-2007, 09:28 AM
What about my suggested line in #19?
The best reply for white (after 1...Bg4) according to computer is 2.fg4 Nxe4 3.Qd3 Nec3+ 4.Kc2 Nxd1 with the evaluation "unclear"
2 pawns and a rook for two minor pieces, unbalanced position, while 1...Nc3+ leads to an advantage for black.