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Intuition
09-05-2007, 12:53 PM
Hi Guys,

Any suggestions for getting an open/tactical game with black after white plays d4? I find that players with lower ratings can hang on better by playing d4 and getting a closed dull game where tactical ability plays a lesser role.

Cheers :)

Capablanca-Fan
09-05-2007, 03:12 PM
Hi Guys,

Any suggestions for getting an open/tactical game with black after white plays d4? I find that players with lower ratings can hang on better by playing d4 and getting a closed dull game where tactical ability plays a lesser role.

Cheers :)

They can hang on for more moves, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they have a better chance. There are some writers like Webb in Chess for Tigers who think that the lower rated player has a better chance of causing an upset in a wild tactical position, while the higher rated player has a better chance of avoiding an upset with a clean strategical game.

Intuition
09-05-2007, 03:59 PM
They can hang on for more moves, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they have a better chance. There are some writers like Webb in Chess for Tigers who think that the lower rated player has a better chance of causing an upset in a wild tactical position, while the higher rated player has a better chance of avoiding an upset with a clean strategical game.

While this may be true, i feel like my rating drops about 100 points after 1.d4 and 2.c4..Ive had a look at the various openings black can reply with but I really cant find one that you can describe as a 'power opening' which leads to a wild game with equal chances...I guess thats just a privelege which positional d4 players can enjoy? :wall:

ER
09-05-2007, 04:52 PM
While this may be true, i feel like my rating drops about 100 points after 1.d4 and 2.c4..Ive had a look at the various openings black can reply with but I really cant find one that you can describe as a 'power opening' which leads to a wild game with equal chances...I guess thats just a privelege which positional d4 players can enjoy? :wall:

No way mate! :) Just give them the old Englund 1 ... e5 :clap:
or the Budapest 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e5! :clap:
or the Albin Counter 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 :clap:

You might end up with not being able to regain your Pawn, but at least you get some free game without the traditional "bad Bishop"!

Cheers and good luck! :)

Capablanca-Fan
09-05-2007, 07:17 PM
No way mate! :) Just give them the old Englund 1 ... e5 :clap:
or the Budapest 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e5! :clap:
or the Albin Counter 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 :clap:

You might end up with not being able to regain your Pawn, but at least you get some free game without the traditional "bad Bishop"!

Cheers and good luck! :)
The Budapest is the only one of those that's reasonably sound, in that White achieves just a small advantage because Black doesn't have to contort himself to regain the pawn.

The Albin is best as a surprise alone. Against a prepared opponent, you will remain a pawn down, or get it back but get mated on the Q-side. The Englund has no redeeming features, and it's too easy for White to gain a good game with natural moves.

If you're worried about bad bishops, then the Slav or Indian defences are best. Which one you choose should be determined by what you like against 1.e4. If you like the Caro, then play Slav. If you like Pirc or Dragon, play King's Indian. The French complements the Nimzo/QID or even the QGD (well, if you like the French then you don't mind bad bishops :P).

likesforests
10-05-2007, 02:24 AM
While this may be true, i feel like my rating drops about 100 points after 1.d4 and 2.c4.

Why not accept the gambit? 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4. You might check out the new book, "Starting Out: Queen's Gambit Accepted". In the Slav and Semi-Slav Black also accepts the pawn. Be forewarned--these lines can be extremely sharp, and you had better be as good at tactics as you think.

Spiny Norman
10-05-2007, 07:29 AM
What about the Noteboom? It scores well for Black and its extremely tactical. e.g.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e3 {5.e4 is a gambit try for White} b5 6.a4 Bb4 7.Bd2 a5 {7...Qe7 is another main line} 8.axb5 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 cxb5 10.b3 {10.d5 is another option} Bb7 11.bxc4 b4 12.Bb2 Nf6

One book I have notes: "White has the classical advantages of a strong pawn centre and the two bishops, however passed a- and b-pawns provide Black with obvious compensation ... the game will be won by the player who successfully blockades the oppostion pawn roller."

For myself, when I'm looking for a stoush, particularly against a higher rated opponent, I play the Leningrad Dutch (and hope that my opponent doesn't know the Staunton Gambit better than I do!).

Capablanca-Fan
10-05-2007, 09:13 AM
Why not accept the gambit? 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4. You might check out the new book, "Starting Out: Queen's Gambit Accepted". In the Slav and Semi-Slav Black also accepts the pawn. Be forewarned--these lines can be extremely sharp, and you had better be as good at tactics as you think.

I started out with the QGA but for various reasons don't use it much any more. It has been played at the very top level. It would be a good way to learn how to play against the IQP.

ER
10-05-2007, 10:10 AM
Which one you choose should be determined by what you like against 1.e4. If you like the Caro, then play Slav. If you like Pirc or Dragon, play King's Indian.

Great infotip Jono! Thanks!!!
Also thanks to Frosty for the Noteboom!
Cheers and good luck!

Intuition
10-05-2007, 11:44 AM
What about the Noteboom? It scores well for Black and its extremely tactical. e.g.


One book I have notes: "White has the classical advantages of a strong pawn centre and the two bishops, however passed a- and b-pawns provide Black with obvious compensation ... the game will be won by the player who successfully blockades the oppostion pawn roller."

For myself, when I'm looking for a stoush, particularly against a higher rated opponent, I play the Leningrad Dutch (and hope that my opponent doesn't know the Staunton Gambit better than I do!).

Nice, lots of good ideas around!! I will have a closer look at noteboom..leads to an unbalanced game which is good if you like to always play for the win. But what about when white plays e3 instead of Nf3? Any suggestions on what black should to then to get a similar/unbalanced/tactical type of game? Maybe I have to have a closer look at some semi-slav lines? :hmm:

Ive tryed the budapest and albin once or twice but I dont think they do black too many favors too push for a win against good opposition maybe i havent looked at them close enough..they are interesting though.

As for QGA off the bat..it not fighting enough for my liking..white seems to have the best part of the play.

It the dutch really a fighting opening opening? I havent looked at it that much but from my experience it leads to dull closed games.


Thanks for your ideas guys,

cheers :)

Capablanca-Fan
10-05-2007, 01:36 PM
See post #70 at http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=5990&page=5 for an example of a quick and convincing win for Black despite playing the stodgy QGD.

Bill Gletsos
10-05-2007, 02:42 PM
You could possibly consider playing a Benoni, the Benko Gambit or even a Grunfeld.

Spiny Norman
10-05-2007, 03:20 PM
It the dutch really a fighting opening? I havent looked at it that much but from my experience it leads to dull closed games.
You might be thinking of the older Dutch lines (i.e. stonewall). The Leningrad is a highly unbalanced setup ... sort of the equivalent idea against 1.d4 to what 1...c5 is against 1.e4 ... except that its more risky (if you don't know what you're doing) because you immediately open up your kingside. But I like it and have played it a lot.

I like Bill's suggestion of the Benko Gambit too. I don't normally play it myself, but I have faced it a number of times as White and, generally speaking, find it a bit of a handful.

Spiny Norman
10-05-2007, 03:24 PM
I will have a closer look at noteboom..leads to an unbalanced game which is good if you like to always play for the win. But what about when white plays e3 instead of Nf3?
Yes, there are a number of points where play can diverge, like any opening ... well worth getting a book on it if you're going to seriously play it (as opposed to just trying it out for some fun). You'll want to be aware of the various ideas/plans for both White and Black.

Capablanca-Fan
11-05-2007, 12:34 PM
You might be thinking of the older Dutch lines (i.e. stonewall).

Botvinnik had a number of attacking wins with the Stonewall, e.g. a crucial game in his match with Flohr (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1031826).


The Leningrad is a highly unbalanced setup ... sort of the equivalent idea against 1.d4 to what 1...c5 is against 1.e4 ... except that its more risky (if you don't know what you're doing) because you immediately open up your kingside. But I like it and have played it a lot.

Yeah, it's quite resourceful, although I can't help thinking that it's positionally dubious.


I like Bill's suggestion of the Benko Gambit too. I don't normally play it myself, but I have faced it a number of times as White and, generally speaking, find it a bit of a handful.

I sometimes play the Benko myself, e.g. http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=152960&postcount=49, although it's one of the few non-classical openings I use.

qpawn
16-05-2007, 05:00 PM
Don't kid yourself by playing the benko. The KID is the best defence to 1.d4 to unblalnce the game in a sound way while introducing tactical complexities.

MichaelBaron
16-05-2007, 07:10 PM
Don't kid yourself by playing the benko. The KID is the best defence to 1.d4 to unblalnce the game in a sound way while introducing tactical complexities.

If only chess was that simple...

MichaelBaron
16-05-2007, 07:13 PM
It is quite difficult to "enforce" a particular style of play on your opponent.

For example against KID, white has an option of 6. dxe5
Slav Defence - exchange variation etc.

Capablanca-Fan
17-05-2007, 04:32 PM
Don't kid yourself by playing the benko.

I wasn't aware that there was a clear refutation. Please point me to it so I can see the error of my ways.


The KID is the best defence to 1.d4 to unblalnce the game in a sound way while introducing tactical complexities.

That's a very categorical statement.

Igor_Goldenberg
22-05-2007, 01:50 PM
I started out with the QGA but for various reasons don't use it much any more. It has been played at the very top level. It would be a good way to learn how to play against the IQP.

What is IQP?

Zwischenzug
22-05-2007, 01:58 PM
What is IQP?

Isolated Queen Pawn (IQP)