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Basil
29-04-2007, 01:45 AM
Every couple of weeks, someone gives it up and fronts centre as a mac guy. Others are out and proud from the get go. I'd like to compile a list of mac users.

Unshackled by the constraints of sub-standard global monopolising 'burdendom' are these known warriors on the side of good, light and freedom include:

Duggan, Howard
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott

Are there any more of you brothers (or sisters) ?

I have a suspicion that Barry might have said something once, but I'd need confirmation.

ER
29-04-2007, 02:04 AM
Howie, how about a poll?
Cheers and good luck!

Basil
29-04-2007, 02:18 AM
Howie, how about a poll?
Cheers and good luck!
What, so all the faceless plodders can collectively ratify their slavery? Nah! This is just for the Gold Card members of the BB. We'll probably attract a bit of the riff-raff anyway, though.

ER
29-04-2007, 02:31 AM
correct!
cheers and good luck!

Aaron Guthrie
29-04-2007, 02:40 AM
macs and pcs are both subservient to the NAND gate.

Can't we all just get along?

Won't someone think of the children?

Basil
30-04-2007, 09:40 PM
So Renée was talking to her daughter in Sydney today (mac user aye!, Renée and the daughter).

The daughter's friend went to Sydney uni today where she has re-enrolled for her psych studies. She took everything with her including her floppy disk with her previous studies on it! (Now hang PC users; first you shouldn't be reading this thread, second I remember when mac did away with floppy drives - oh didn't you all laugh - idiots.)

So anyway, "we don't use floppy disks any more here luv" etc.. and they came up with a work-around.

Yada yada yada, I'm told the Sydney Uni library only uses macs (anyone confirm?) <score one for the good guys>.

And yada yada yada, after her experience with the nicest and best computers she has ever seen, her new upgrade which would have been a PC plonk will now be a mac!

pax
01-05-2007, 02:14 PM
Anyone care to translate that incomprehensible ramble?

Desmond
01-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Not sure I can be of much help sorry Pax, but I'm guessing the MacHonour Roll is some variation on a sesame seed bun.

Rincewind
01-05-2007, 11:35 PM
Anyone care to translate that incomprehensible ramble?

I hear UNSW is all Linux. Could that be true? Can anyone confirm or deny?

Rincewind
01-05-2007, 11:38 PM
I have a suspicion that Barry might have said something once, but I'd need confirmation.

I used to own an Apple ][+ when I was in high school (>20 years ago). Apart from that, I don't think I qualify. Used 1st gen Macs at uni c.1984 but never really took a shine to them. Proceeded to use Amiga for the rest of the 80s and then migrated to PC for desktop. I use Linux for my servers but find Windows too convenient to change my desktop to anything else.

Basil
02-05-2007, 12:50 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. The lure of a green screen? :P Or was it orange or black?

Seriously, I confess to knowing nothing about Amiga's early years. And while appreciating the relative limited capacity of all machines at that time, I'd be interested to hear your recollections of the industry and any/ all products in that era.

My God! that was 1/4 of a century ago. You must be similar vintage to me :eek:

EDIT: I vaguely recall Amigas being a command line, and that's about it as far as a user interface goes. Whereas macs were well into developing their user-friendly interface for matters not concerning maths, stats, programming etc.. They were busy pioneering DTP at the time from memory.

Rincewind
02-05-2007, 01:07 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. The lure of a green screen? :P Or was it orange or black?

Seriously, I confess to knowing nothing about Amiga's early years. And while appreciating the relative limited capacity of all machines at that time, I'd be interested to hear your recollections of the industry and any/ all products in that era.

The thing I liked the most about the Amiga was the stucture of the operating system. It didn't appear to be a haphazardly assembled series of patches. Oh it was also MC68000 based which I also liked at the time as I had some experience with programming 6800 and 68000.

My recollection of the Amiga (I haven't used one for many years now, was that the screen went white and then a couple of shades of grey as it wass booting. If there was an error in the boot (something I had a little experience in and most often responsible for) It might start flashing between green and orange. Normally, if you get some exception you would get the Amiga equivalent of the blue screen of death, which had an associated "Guru Meditation Number".

I still have heaps of Amiga OS books lying around here. All free to a good home. Titles like The System Programmer's Guide the the Amiga, and many, many others.

pax
02-05-2007, 09:44 AM
EDIT: I vaguely recall Amigas being a command line, and that's about it as far as a user interface goes. Whereas macs were well into developing their user-friendly interface for matters not concerning maths, stats, programming etc.. They were busy pioneering DTP at the time from memory.

Your recollection is quite faulty.

Basil
02-05-2007, 01:41 PM
Your recollection is quite faulty.

As is your bedside manner.

Jon, you seem prone to attacks of pointyness. Why couldn't you just be pleasant and share your experiences and your recollections. The discussion about the early days is obviously a genuine one.

Your two contributions to thread have both been negative. Now come on, let's forget about them and lift your game. I'd be happy to be hear of your recollections.

Rincewind
02-05-2007, 05:26 PM
As is your bedside manner.

The comment was terse but accurate.

From day 1 the Amiga OS (called Workbench) was user friendly GUI comparable to Mac OS and better than Windows of the same era.

The system module dealing with interfacing with the user was called Intuition, which was very nice to use and well structured.

Lamentably, those days are long gone.

pax
02-05-2007, 06:13 PM
Jon, you seem prone to attacks of pointyness.
As do you, any time the acronym PC is mentioned..



Your two contributions to thread have both been negative.

Well it is a *mac* thread after all :hand:

As for Amiga, it was by far the leader in PC graphics for it's time (indeed it took other companies nearly a decade to catch up with where Amiga had been in terms of graphics and sound). And it was certainly one of the forerunners in the GUI business along with the Mac and the Atari ST (all three came along in 1984 and 1985).

I believe IBM considered Atari's GEM OS as a possible alternative to MS-DOS for the first IBM PC. What a different world we would have if IBM had taken that route.

Basil
02-05-2007, 08:42 PM
As do you, any time the acronym PC is mentioned..
No. You are deluding yourself in order to defend yourself.

First point. While I don't mind stirring up the PC boxes for the substandard whizz bang pops they are (and it has been both demonstrated and admitted), or indeed talking generally (and often in jest) about the users, I don't personalise the discussion to an individual. You did - twice.

Second point. 'Balance'. Until prodded you had signaled no intention to contribute anything but troll.

Third point, I always try and defend my assertions with facts on poor performance. You'll find your first two offerings fact and bona-fide free.

The summary of your offering were that they were nothing but little trolls with no context. Hardly heavy stuff. Just calling you on it.

As for your eventual answer - it was informative. Thanks.

Basil
02-05-2007, 09:43 PM
By the way Brian and Jon. Have either of you actually, like, you know, *used a mac*? :eek:

Let's not get on to PCs as I have given up trying draw out the pro case (there isn't a pro case is there?).

Let's just focus on the macs (as Jon points out, it is a mac thread). Naturally you would have both had reasonable experience with macs otherwise you wouldn't be commenting so preponderantly. I'd be interested to hear of your experiences.

Desmond
02-05-2007, 09:45 PM
have either of you actually, like, *used one*? :eek:Yes. And, yes, I still feel dirty.

Basil
02-05-2007, 09:48 PM
Yes. And, yes, I still feel dirty.
Experiences? When? For how long? No good huh? What didn't you like?

pax
02-05-2007, 10:59 PM
Third point, I always try and defend my assertions with facts on poor performance. You'll find your first two offerings fact and bona-fide free.


Not at all. It *was* an incomprehensible ramble (I'm still not sure what you were trying to say), and your memory *was* faulty - amiga has never been command-line.

I actually don't have a problem with macs. They aren't flexible enough for me, that's all - and they have a tendency to be under powered and overpriced (not as bad now that they use Intel). I don't use them a lot, but I have used them for substantial computer programming work in the past. I acknowledge that they are probably still the best environment for graphic design and desktop publishing, but not by quite as much as in the past.

ER
03-05-2007, 01:11 AM
I acknowledge that they are probably still the best environment for graphic design and desktop publishing ...

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement! I remember back in mid '90s when using one of the first Quarx systems I produced quality desktop publishing for at least two n/ps and three magazines. All that in an old, albeit upgraded. OS9 Mac, which I still sometimes use today and not only for sentimental value! It still works perfectly.

Cheers and good luck to all!

Bereaved
03-05-2007, 01:54 AM
Ahem

I don't get it.... I'll do a Pauline Hanson

Please explain??

So many posts and no one has yet praised me??!!

Isn't this supposed to be some sort of Mac Honour Roll?

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Basil
03-05-2007, 01:54 AM
Not at all. It *was* an incomprehensible ramble (I'm still not sure what you were trying to say)
I don't think it was incomprehensible at all. I think the problem is that I used a teensy bit of vernacular, and the flow of the discussion was a teensy bit disjointed (it was two women talking after all :eek:), but to say incomprehensible ... well that's just silly, isn't it? Let's have a look:


So Renée was talking to her daughter in Sydney today (mac user aye!, Renée and the daughter).
What I meant to say to be clearer:
Renée was talking to her daughter in Sydney today. Both girls are mac users. Good one.


The daughter's friend went to Sydney uni today where she has re-enrolled for her psych studies.
What I meant to say to be clearer:
The daughter's friend went to Sydney uni today where she has re-enrolled for her psych studies.



She took everything with her including her floppy disk with her previous studies on it!
What I meant to say to be clearer:
She took everything with her including her floppy disk with her previous studies on it!


Now hang PC users; first you shouldn't be reading this thread, second I remember when mac did away with floppy drives - oh didn't you all laugh - idiots.)
What I meant to say to be clearer:
Before PC users have a giggle at her naivety, I'd observe that it was only a short time ago that PC users were giggling generally that macs had done away with the floppy drives. When the first round of iMacs came out, PC users users wanted to know where the floppy drive was.


So anyway, "we don't use floppy disks any more here luv" etc.. and they came up with a work-around.
What I meant to say to be clearer:
So anyway, the helper at the uni said "we don't use floppy disks any more here luv". But luckily they managed to help her out anyway.


Yada yada yada
Explanation:
Refer Seinfeld. It means 'and then after some stuff and then some more stuff and before you know it...'.


I'm told the Sydney Uni library only uses macs (anyone confirm?)
What I meant to say to be clearer:
I'm told the Sydney Uni library only uses macs (anyone confirm?)


<score one for the good guys>.
What I meant to say to be clearer:
That's a nice story to reinforce the credibility for the mac team.


And yada yada yada, after her experience with the nicest and best computers she has ever seen, her new upgrade which would have been a PC plonk will now be a mac!
What I meant to say to be clearer:
And to cut a long story short, after her experiences, she's going to buy a mac.

Basil
03-05-2007, 01:56 AM
This is the complete re-write for those that couldn't follow the ramble!

Ren&#233;e was talking to her daughter in Sydney today. Both girls are mac users. Good one.

The daughter's friend went to Sydney uni today where she has re-enrolled for her psych studies.

She took everything with her including her floppy disk with her previous studies on it! (Before PC users have a giggle at her naivety, I'd observe there was a time when PC users were giggling generally that macs had done away with the floppy drives. When the first round of iMacs came out, PC users users wanted to know where the floppy drive was.)

So anyway, the helper at the uni said "we don't use floppy disks any more here luv". But luckily they managed to help her out anyway.

It turned out the Sydney Uni library only uses macs (anyone confirm?) If so, that's a nice story to reinforce the credibility for the mac team. After her experiences, she's going to buy a mac.

Basil
03-05-2007, 01:59 AM
So many posts and no one has yet praised me??!!

Isn't this supposed to be some sort of Mac Honour Roll?

:P

pax
03-05-2007, 08:51 AM
This is the complete re-write for those that couldn't follow the ramble!

Ren&#233;e was talking to her daughter in Sydney today. Both girls are mac users. Good one.

The daughter's friend went to Sydney uni today where she has re-enrolled for her psych studies.

She took everything with her including her floppy disk with her previous
studies on it! (Before PC users have a giggle at her naivety, I'd observe there was a time when PC users were giggling generally that macs had done away with the floppy drives. When the first round of iMacs came out, PC users users wanted to know where the floppy drive was.)

So anyway, the helper at the uni said "we don't use floppy disks any more here luv". But luckily they managed to help her out anyway.

It turned out the Sydney Uni library only uses macs (anyone confirm?) If so, that's a nice story to reinforce the credibility for the mac team. After her experiences, she's going to buy a mac.

A few points to make:

Presumably daughter isn't a Mac user yet, since she carries a bunch of floppies around and hasn't yet bought a Mac.
Presumably the "work around" involved you know - a floppy disk drive?
PCs have been available without floppy drives for years - that's the great thing about a reconfigurable system.
The iMac did away with the floppy before the invention of USB portable storage. I think you'll find that external floppy drives for the iMac sold very well in those early years.


Edit: And I'm totally mystified as to how this story reinforces the credibility of the mac team.. Because they managed to get a file off a floppy disk?!

Basil
03-05-2007, 04:53 PM
A few answers



Presumably daughter isn't a Mac user yet, since she carries a bunch of floppies around and hasn't yet bought a Mac.
The daughter is a mac user. She's 22. It was the daughter's friend who is a PC user. It is that friend who is a PC user who went to the uni. It's all there.


Presumably the "work around" involved you know - a floppy disk drive? Yup. I think someone at the library had a pc with a floppy with them, overheard the problem and pitched in.


PCs have been available without floppy drives for years - that's the great thing about a reconfigurable system.
I know. What you say is true. But I continue to write in a manner that confuses you, as none of this is the point. I don't want to make the point a third time.


The iMac did away with the floppy before the invention of USB portable storage. USB, yes. But other portable solutions existed, such as Iomega. The existence or otherwise specifically of USB technology is redundant to your assertion.


I think you'll find that external floppy drives for the iMac sold very well in those early years.
Possibly. Just like USB sticks sell even better now :eek:


And I'm totally mystified as to how this story reinforces the credibility of the mac team.. Because they managed to get a file off a floppy disk?!
Ummm. No. Probably a good idea to forget that some kind soul helped her out. It seems to be obfuscating the story for you.

I don't want to make the point a third time. Given the lack of import of the whole thing, how about we just leave eachother in a state of not quite having communicated?

--------------------------------------------------

For the attention of fellow mac users:

Hey, here's a thought!
Someone we know who's been a PC user tried a mac and decided to switch to macs permanently! I like to hear things like that.

Hey, here's another thought! Apparently Sydney uni uses macs in its library. I like to hear things like that.

pax
03-05-2007, 05:11 PM
USB, yes. But other portable solutions existed, such as Iomega. The existence or otherwise specifically of USB technology is redundant to your assertion.

Fair enough. But Iomega drives were never very widespread, so they were only useful if you knew that your target computer (at work, school or at a friend's place etc) already had an Iomega drive.

Anyway all of this is, as you say, beside the point. I will leave you Mac fanbois to your self-congratulation exercise.

Rincewind
03-05-2007, 06:51 PM
Hey, here's another thought! Apparently Sydney uni uses macs in its library. I like to hear things like that.

While UOW has a PC or Mac policy for academics the library is almost entirely PC fitted and the same is pretty much true of the shared computer labs I've visited. It is certainly true of the math school's computer lab despite the fact that the software (primarily Maple) is available on either platform.

I presume the reason for this is the economic argument given by Pax. Macs would not seem to be cost effective except for some specialised tasks.

I too will bow out at this point with a couple of random observations.

- I forgot to mention earlier I have an Apple iPod.
- Macavity rocks.

GN

Basil
04-05-2007, 02:28 AM
I presume the reason for this is the economic argument given by Pax. Macs would not seem to be cost effective except for some specialised tasks.
:eek: RW I have missed something. I have seen no argument for cost-efficiency that I can recall, save for my observation in another thread that total cost of ownership of macs is on par or better with PCs.

Desmond
04-05-2007, 08:31 AM
total cost of ownership of macs is on par or better with PCs.:rolleyes: feel free to substantiate that claim at any time that is convenient.

Rincewind
04-05-2007, 09:13 AM
:eek: RW I have missed something. I have seen no argument for cost-efficiency that I can recall, save for my observation in another thread that total cost of ownership of macs is on par or better with PCs.

Post #21 in this thread: "Underpowered and overpriced".

Basil
04-05-2007, 01:03 PM
:rolleyes: feel free to substantiate that claim at any time that is convenient.
Will do. I thought it was reasonably well-known.

Is there any reason why you didn't ask pax to substantiate the original which was macs are under-powered and over-priced? Forget that - hey, have you ever read 'Animal Farm'? "Four legs better than two" *oink*


Post #21 in this thread: "Underpowered and overpriced".
Missed that. Will address with the above.

Basil
04-05-2007, 01:30 PM
:rolleyes: feel free to substantiate that claim at any time that is convenient.
While I continue to reasonably address all that has been asked of me, I don't suppose you want to change your ways and start doing the same; viz
-- care to make the case for PCs (in the appropriate thread, where the question was asked (about 12 times))
-- qualify the depth of your experience with macs, also as requested?

Desmond
04-05-2007, 01:53 PM
While I continue to reasonably address all that has been asked of me, I don't suppose you want to change your ways and start doing the same; viz
-- care to make the case for PCs (in the appropriate thread, where the question was asked (about 12 times))Where I come from, 1/3 loses to 3/3 every time. Case closed.


-- qualify the depth of your experience with macs, also as requested?At high school, one of the 4 computer labs was Mac. 5 years of computer lessons there, probably about 25% on Apple/Macs.

Have also assisted in setting up a Mac network.

My Dad got a Mac free of charge. I took it to the dump for him.

pax
04-05-2007, 06:28 PM
A blog post (from a Mac fan) that illustrates rather well why I find Macs too inflexible:

http://www.sendmike2space.com/

I might add that I like the Mac Mini a lot, and if only I could get it with a decent graphics card and TV-out I would consider using it as a media centre.

Basil
04-05-2007, 11:38 PM
I don't suppose you want to ...make the case for PCs? Where I come from, 1/3 loses to 3/3 every time. Case closed.

Cute answer... to the wrong question.

Your 1/3 analogy, I now concede (on the basis that the Sprout wanted Vista :eek: Well done PCs on account of nothing but a PC can win that. Seriously, very well done PCs). That's the 'what's best for Sprout' taken care of.

Now, case back open ;)

As you know, that thread morphed into a secondary issue of 'which is better on its merits' (remember your Intel preoccupation?). In answer to the general merits issue, I cited the case for macs. I invited you to do the same. Score to date on this one is:
3 x times ignored
1 x answered wrong question

There is a strong general case for buying a PC isn't there?



... qualify the depth of your experience with macs, also as requested?At high school, one of the 4 computer labs was Mac. 5 years of computer lessons there, probably about 25% on Apple/Macs.
And how did you find them? What was your experience of macs back in 1995 (or so?), compared to Windows of the same era?


Have also assisted in setting up a Mac network.
So not a lot of experience from a user's POV, really? Fair comment?


My Dad got a Mac free of charge. I took it to the dump for him.
Just confirming this is a joke. If not, which model was it?

Basil
04-05-2007, 11:41 PM
A blog post (from a Mac fan) that illustrates rather well why I find Macs too inflexible:

http://www.sendmike2space.com/

I might add that I like the Mac Mini a lot, and if only I could get it with a decent graphics card and TV-out I would consider using it as a media centre.

Nice post & certainly in keeping with the intended spirit of the thread. Curiously, I'm a touch gun-shy of the 'mini' because of the first generation over-heating problems. It was always going to be a tough ask packing a monster (and keeping it cool) into something the size of a small sandwich box!

pax
05-05-2007, 08:21 AM
Nice post & certainly in keeping with the intended spirit of the thread. Curiously, I'm a touch gun-shy of the 'mini' because of the first generation over-heating problems. It was always going to be a tough ask packing a monster (and keeping it cool) into something the size of a small sandwich box!

I think the Intel chips are better performing power consumption and heat-wise than the old PowerPCs, so the Intel version Mac Mini doesn't suffer as much as the PowerPC did.

Basil
07-05-2007, 11:43 PM
I think the Intel chips are better performing power consumption and heat-wise than the old PowerPCs, so the Intel version Mac Mini doesn't suffer as much as the PowerPC did.
That's excellent news. I'll do a bit of research.

Basil
07-05-2007, 11:50 PM
:rolleyes: feel free to substantiate that claim at any time that is convenient.

Finally had a chance to look into this. I intended on dragging up all sorts of stuff from the depths, but instead, I plugged "total cost of ownership mac pc" into Google.

The first two hits (yeah really - you try) I got were this (http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/022706bestbreaker-schwartau.html?page=1).
I like this bloke for obvious reasons. He talks about the whole damn shooting match in one short article.

The second one I got was this (http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=22738).
This is a ping-pong 'Apple says, Microflog says' and is inconclusive. The writer ends by saying he doesn't want to buy into it. Even if inconclusive, it certainly puts paid to any dribble that the other platform is oh so waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper.

My mini conclusion is that if you're buying a PC because you think it's cheaper, think again. Try and get off the treadmill - it only seems kinky the first time ;)

Rincewind
08-05-2007, 10:03 AM
TCO arguments are flawed at their inception. PC owners willing to get their hands dirty can achieve a lower TCO throughout the life-cycle. Likewise enterprises who have some in-house capability can do the same.

Apple is just the lazy choice. :hand:

pax
08-05-2007, 12:12 PM
At my work, everybody is provided with Dell desktop machines. I am not a particular fan of Dell (and yes, Howard, they are ugly as sin), but in over three years here I am not aware of a single instance of a hardware failure with one of these machines (and we are talking dozens of machines here).

Oh, except for the exploding firewire card, but that was entirely my own doing :)

So the cost of maintenance and repair is pretty well negligible in this case.

Desmond
08-05-2007, 12:56 PM
The first two hits (yeah really - you try) I got were this (http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/022706bestbreaker-schwartau.html?page=1).
The second one I got was this (http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=22738).You know it's 2007 now, right?

Basil
08-05-2007, 01:11 PM
TCO arguments are flawed at their inception. PC owners willing to get their hands dirty can achieve a lower TCO throughout the life-cycle. Likewise enterprises who have some in-house capability can do the same.

Apple is just the lazy choice. :hand:

I think you need to tighten this up. Barry. Are you saying that PC owners can save money by doing some maintenance and running around on their machine. And then not charging this time and fuel, etc. out. Like a car enthusiast?

Sure it would be fun for some people, but make that claim instead of your sloppy one.

Basil
08-05-2007, 01:14 PM
You know it's 2007 now, right?
Would you like some more contemporary quotes? I think the situation has improved considerably for macs.

Brian, if you're interested in this conversation, please try and help it along. Otherwise, please move elsewhere.

Your contributions are:
--I took it to the dump
--My hands were dirty
--Feel free to substantiate
--You know it's 2007?

Not grate from you mate. You're not actually contributing anything genuine. C'mon.

Basil
08-05-2007, 01:18 PM
At my work, everybody is provided with Dell desktop machines. I am not a particular fan of Dell (and yes, Howard, they are ugly as sin), but in over three years here I am not aware of a single instance of a hardware failure with one of these machines (and we are talking dozens of machines here).

Oh, except for the exploding firewire card, but that was entirely my own doing :)

So the cost of maintenance and repair is pretty well negligible in this case.

Well, can't argue with that. I have ditto for my macs. I won't try and 'win' that one because:
a) it might not be winnable
b) I don't think winning is the deal here
c) We might need more information for TCO such as 'obsolescence'
d) This part of the MAC chat for me is about addressing any concept that MAC is clearly a far over-priced machine.

Desmond
08-05-2007, 01:32 PM
Would you like some more contemporary quotes? Yes. One of the (perhaps the very?) first thing they teach you about IT research at uni is to look at the dates of your sources. Anything 2 years old is usually useless, and often anything over 6 months old is too.


I think the situation has improved considerably for macs.I don't. Note that I am not sustantiating my claim either.


Brian, if you're interested in this conversation, please try and help it along. Otherwise, please move elsewhere.Ok, well you could start by naming some sort of parameters for your TCO argument. You seem to be talking about business/enterprise level decision, correct?


Your contributions are:
--I took it to the dumpIt was a joke, but some truth behind this. I may elaborate if the argument goes in the relevant direction.

--My hands were dirty

--Feel free to substantiateWell, if you are going to make far reaching, not to mention categorically incorrect, statements, then expect to be asked to prove them. Comments such as your "doesn't everybody know this" and a 5 second google job didn't really inspire me to bother with a complete rebuttal.

--You know it's 2007?A completely valid point, as explained above.


Not grate from you mate. You're not actually contributing anything genuine. C'mon.Happy now?

pax
08-05-2007, 02:53 PM
c) We might need more information for TCO such as 'obsolescence'


My perspective here is probably a bit different to your average PC user. If you use Linux, hardware doesn't become obsolete nearly as quickly as it does if you use Windows. This is because Linux is generally much better at running on lower-spec machines, and better with legacy hardware compatibility.



d) This part of the MAC chat for me is about addressing any concept that MAC is clearly a far over-priced machine.

I actually wouldn't consider the Mac to be 'clearly far over priced' at all any more (they certainly were in the Power PC days). If you look at the pricing of Macs post-Intel, they are now similar to the prices of similar spec models available from some of the leading PC brands.

In pure hardware terms, you can generally get a bit better bang for your buck from PCs by looking around for a good deal. Apple have long had a policy of not allowing retailers to discount their products, which means that you don't find special deals on Macs that you might find on Dell or HP for example.

Also you usually find that the top-of-the-line processors, graphics cards etc come out on PC before they come out on Mac (if at all). So if you have a burning desire to have the ultimate hardware monster, then Mac probably isn't it.

Basil
08-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Happy now?
You seem intent on dragging this entire process into argumentative territory. Your style has been less than helpful, and when called on it, you do a mass dump and then act churlish.


Perhaps the very? first thing they teach you about IT research at uni is to look at the dates of your sources. Anything 2 years old is usually useless, and often anything over 6 months old is too.
I was unaware of that - not having been to IT school, but prepared to acknowledge that school's value. I'd argue that some things may be perennial. And as I have subsequently said, I think the mac situation has even further improved since those quotes, as their market share and impetus has improved (gut feeling based on personal commercial experience).

As a result of this, I'll start a bona fide comparison job with my run-of-the-mill iMac - I'll ask you guys for spec and price comparisons. I'm genuinely interested to know.


Note that I am not sustantiating my claim either.
I had noted that. Just looking for goodwill, ab initio, in your interactions - that's all.


Ok, well you could start by naming some sort of parameters for your TCO argument. You seem to be talking about business/enterprise level decision, correct?
Again, it would have been helpful if you had asked that to begin with. The answer is no. My premise that TCO is similar (if not better) applies across the board. I will add that I am referring to Windows-based machines.


It was a joke.
OK. Perhaps an emoticon? Especially when many of your other comments and general style is negative.


Well, if you are going to make far reaching, not to mention categorically incorrect, statements, then expect to be asked to prove them.
Your justification is circular. We haven't established that my statement was 'categorically incorrect'. And you've made no attempt to show for the incorrect statement you claim it to be.
-- I genuinely thought that it was common knowledge (especially among IT people).
-- You yourself have said you're not necessarily substantiating.
-- There is much evidence to support my position

Why so pointy? What exactly is upsetting you? I don't mind being the one to do all the running, fact-wise, it's the thrust of this thread - but please, lift your general game - it's tiring.

Basil
08-05-2007, 03:02 PM
In pure hardware terms, you can generally get a bit better bang for your buck from PCs by looking around for a good deal.
I'd like to get back to you on that one. Not sure I agree. But certainly more inclined to, if as yoou say, limit to 'pure hardware' only. Parts of the 'mac deal' are inseparably parameters beyond solely hardrware.


Apple have long had a policy of not allowing retailers to discount their products, which means that you don't find special deals on Macs that you might find on Dell or HP for example.
Agreed.


Also you usually find that the top-of-the-line processors, graphics cards etc come out on PC before they come out on Mac (if at all). So if you have a burning desire to have the ultimate hardware monster, then Mac probably isn't it.
I may be out of my depth here, and prepared to get an education, but I'm not convinced at this stage. Also wish to get back to you.
I think I'd need a bit more knowledge on these top of the range cards. I'm not even sure I know they exist - and how much they cost. An example would be good.

Desmond
08-05-2007, 03:56 PM
You seem intent on dragging this entire process into argumentative territory. Your style has been less than helpful, and when called on it, you do a mass dump and then act churlish.Howard, it's a two-way street. In sprouty's thread there were a few people offering him advise on minimum specs he might want to consider etc, and you felt compelled to put in your trolling comments which in no way met the system he specified.

I was unaware of that - not having been to IT school, but prepared to acknowledge that school's value. I'd argue that some things may be perennial. That is true, but it's probably easier to underestimate my point about data relevance's lifespan than it is to overestimate it. In any event, consideration such as price are defintely not in the perennial category.

And as I have subsequently said, I think the mac situation has even further improved since those quotes, as their market share and impetus has improved (gut feeling based on personal commercial experience).Well, I don't accept that just because you say-so. Wouldn't it be easier to start with a current source rather that one 4 years old and then try to extrapolate? Regarding your market share comment, the last figures that I am aware of, Q1 07, Mac is holding ground overall, which is comprised of gaining in the personal audio market (i.e. the iPod) and a small slip in the remainder.

As a result of this, I'll start a bona fide comparison job with my run-of-the-mill iMac - I'll ask you guys for spec and price comparisons. I'm genuinely interested to know.That would be fine. I'll supply some comparable PC pricing. Do you want me to stick to RRP or the cheapest I can find for the public to buy?

I had noted that. Just looking for goodwill, ab initio, in your interactions - that's all.ok

Again, it would have been helpful if you had asked that to begin with.I agree.

The answer is no. My premise that TCO is similar (if not better) applies across the board. I will add that I am referring to Windows-based machines.I put it to you that TCO discussions directed at the consumer are nothing more than sales BS to get the consumer to fork over more money.

OK. Perhaps an emoticon? Especially when many of your other comments and general style is negative.I thought it was obvious, but I will take your comment onboard. I don't see an emoticon next to your animal farm comment. I assumed that was a joke. Was I mistaken?

Your justification is circular. We haven't established that my statement was 'categorically incorrect'. And you've made no attempt to show for the incorrect statement you claim it to be.
-- I genuinely thought that it was common knowledge (especially among IT people).
-- You yourself have said you're not necessarily substantiating.
-- There is much evidence to support my positionOk, well so that the discussion can continue, let me remove some of the wood from my sentence for you:

If you are going to make far reaching statements, then expect to be asked to prove them.


Why so pointy? What exactly is upsetting you? I don't mind being the one to do all the running, fact-wise, it's the thrust of this thread - but please, lift your general game - it's tiring.Is pointy your word for the month? You seem to be calling everybody that lately.

pax
08-05-2007, 03:57 PM
I may be out of my depth here, and prepared to get an education, but I'm not convinced at this stage. Also wish to get back to you.
I think I'd need a bit more knowledge on these top of the range cards. I'm not even sure I know they exist - and how much they cost. An example would be good.

Actually it looks like the top of the line Intel Quad core Xeon X5365 is only in the Mac Pro at the moment. It will have a wider release soon, but for now the Mac is in front in the processor stakes.

On graphics card, the Mac is a bit behind. The top Nvidia Geforce 7300GT available on the Mac is well below the top 8800 cards, the ATI x1900 is a bit below the top x1950, and the quadroFX 4500 is below the top FX 5600.

I don't know why I care, as I can't afford any of that gear anyway :)

Desmond
08-05-2007, 04:11 PM
Actually it looks like the top of the line Intel Quad core Xeon X5365 is only in the Mac Pro at the moment. It will have a wider release soon, but for now the Mac is in front in the processor stakes.AFAIK that is true, but I would be quite happy for this (http://www-605.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=4611686018425145166&storeId=36&langId=036&categoryId=2303249&dualCurrId=89&catalogId=-36) to tide me over until then.

pax
08-05-2007, 04:24 PM
AFAIK that is true, but I would be quite happy for this (http://www-605.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=4611686018425145166&storeId=36&langId=036&categoryId=2303249&dualCurrId=89&catalogId=-36) to tide me over until then.

A mere 4 cores? Pah.

Aaron Guthrie
08-05-2007, 04:54 PM
Does the mac OS only run on mac machines?

Basil
08-05-2007, 05:31 PM
Howard, it's a two-way street. In sprouty's thread there were a few people offering him advise on minimum specs he might want to consider etc, and you felt compelled to put in your trolling comments which in no way met the system he specified.
Not true. I did have a little troll (perhaps 2 posts). I also qualified my trolls! But then I snapped back into assisting the thread, offering advice and wishing him well and so forth. I see your input into this thread as rolling disruption. I'm happy to move on.

All your other quoted items, I'm good with, and where they were questions, I'll try and get back to you on all of them.

Basil
08-05-2007, 05:32 PM
Does the mac OS only run on mac machines?
Yes, AFAIK (Bill or Jon may have an obscure exception that I don't know about).

Basil
08-05-2007, 06:00 PM
More contemporary information on Total Cost Ownership.
Again from a Google search {total cost ownership mac pc}.
First page. The examples I'm coming across just appear. I'm not 'sifting'.

Example 1
This school's (http://www.mail-archive.com/macinschool@mail.maclaunch.com/msg00104.html
) experience is that macs are the way to go.
If embedded url, doesn't work, use this > http://www.mail-archive.com/macinschool@mail.maclaunch.com/msg00104.html

Example 2
This commentator who appears to be a self-styled TCO guru talks about various TCO in life and feels the same as I do at point 13 (http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/total-costs-of-ownership-and-why-indians-hate-dry-cleaning). Third of the way down. Date stamp 18 April, 2007. I think this one is quite deadly, IMO.

Again, not meant to be exhaustive, but the evidence is abundant that my original claim was not a wild one. Certainly now has been corroborated. Yet to find a case for PCs but I'm sure there out there.

Basil
08-05-2007, 07:13 PM
I put it to you that TCO discussions directed at the consumer are nothing more than sales BS to get the consumer to fork over more money.
Well, I'm surprised by this. I thought the opposite was true and that the 'hiding' of hidden & maintenance costs was itself BS and an old-school sales approach to increasingly more consumers.

Motor vehicles are a good example where people now want to know what the cost of replacement headlights are when considering the purchase as a whole.

More topically, the whole bubble-jet rort. Finally the consumer is wising up to the fact that its cheaper to actually buy a new bubble-jet printer for $60 than buy a cartridge for similar price. I've refused to go anywhere near bubble/ ink jets for 5 years because of this - applies to my home purchases too.

TCO concepts are becoming increasingly more prevalent and I put it to you that the cheap sticker price is having less effect on consumers who now wants to know what the TCO is prior to purchase!

Desmond
08-05-2007, 07:26 PM
Well, I'm surprised by this. I thought the opposite was true and that the 'hiding' of hidden & maintenance costs was itself BS and an old-school sales approach to increasingly more consumers.If you have an employee's computer out of action for a couple of days, it might cost you a few hundred dollars in productivity. If your home computer is down for a couple of days, what does it cost in lost productivity? Nothing.


More topically, the whole bubble-jet rort. Finally the consumer is wising up to the fact that its cheaper to actually buy a new bubble-jet printer for $60 than buy a cartridge for similar price. I've refused to go anywhere near bubble/ ink jets for 5 years because of this - applies to my home purchases too.That is an urban myth. While it may be true that you can purchase a replacement printer sometimes cheaper than replacement cartridges, most times the cheap printers come with low-yield cartridges. So for example, it might come with 15ml but the replacement real cartridge might be 45ml.


TCO concepts are becoming increasingly more prevalent and I put it to you that the cheap sticker price is having less effect on consumers who now wants to know what the TCO is prior to purchase!That does not explain why people are buying laptops from the supermarket. The reality is that, as you illustrated in your printer paragraph, people just throw it away if it's broken. We don't bother fixing things anymore. People will check the box, see it has 1 year warranty (the cheap ones usually do) and figure if it breaks down after a year they have got their money's worth.

pax
08-05-2007, 07:33 PM
More topically, the whole bubble-jet rort. Finally the consumer is wising up to the fact that its cheaper to actually buy a new bubble-jet printer for $60 than buy a cartridge for similar price. I've refused to go anywhere near bubble/ ink jets for 5 years because of this - applies to my home purchases too.

That's interesting, because I reckon the last five years are when the ink-jet printers have started to really hit the spot in terms of quality. You are quite right about the con of the cheap printer (can anyone say Lexmark?) but I reckon you're missing out if you boycott the entire technology for that reason..

Basil
08-05-2007, 07:35 PM
As a result of this, I'll start a bona fide comparison job with my run-of-the-mill iMac - I'll ask you guys for spec and price comparisons. I'm genuinely interested to know.
That would be fine. I'll supply some comparable PC pricing. Do you want me to stick to RRP or the cheapest I can find for the public to buy?

The idea is to compare apples with apples. I have it in my head, and I have read in many places that there are basically three types of PC pricing available. I'd be interested in opinion on this from all quarters. And that is:

Budget PC:
Cheap everything. Bargain basement price. Expect little and hope for the best.

Intermediate PC:
Middle of the road everything. Known brands. Not in the upper echelons, but nothing to sneeze at. Many home users and small buusiness would be directed here.

Quality PC:
Good everything. Pay a bit more. Get relaibility etc..

If we can agree on that very broad definition, I'll leave the minutae to your conscience as I don't want to get into splitting $50 - $100 and I wouldn't know the veracity of what you tell me anyway ;)

OK, I'll pick the machine I'm typing on now as as good as any. In short, it's an all in one imac. Looks very nice (IMO). Pick up the screen and that's the computer! Beautifully finished. Plasma job.
I appreciate aesthetics aren't in the deal for everyone, so I acknowledge that here. Equally, they are a consideration for others and I think they should be aware of that aspect if they wish to factor it in.

The specs can be found here (http://www.infinitesystems.com.au/products-hardware-desktop-imac2.html)
Config on the right hand side. Let me know if you need more detailed specs.

I paid $1,800 for it about 4 months ago. Something which I forget was thrown in as well as OS 10.5 when it is released.

I think to be fair to both sides, you should quote both of your suggestions, viz best price for a cluey shopper as well as RRP.

Desmond
08-05-2007, 07:39 PM
Ok, that's fine. Cheapie, mid-range, high-end. Do you want to do the same for desktops and notebooks?

Basil
08-05-2007, 07:42 PM
If you have an employee's computer out of action for a couple of days, it might cost you a few hundred dollars in productivity. If your home computer is down for a couple of days, what does it cost in lost productivity? Nothing.
Disagree. There's still the cost of fixing. Time, petrol, phone calls, cost of someone to do it for you, frustration, inconvenience. It's all part of the deal.


That is an urban myth. While it may be true that you can purchase a replacement printer sometimes cheaper than replacement cartridges, most times the cheap printers come with low-yield cartridges. So for example, it might come with 15ml but the replacement real cartridge might be 45ml.
Disagree. The TCO of bubblejets is outrageous. I appreciate if you buy 'better' the bite won't be so hard, but whichever way you look at it - they're SOB's.


That does not explain why people are buying laptops from the supermarket. The reality is that, as you illustrated in your printer paragraph, people just throw it away if it's broken. We don't bother fixing things anymore. People will check the box, see it has 1 year warranty (the cheap ones usually do) and figure if it breaks down after a year they have got their money's worth.
Of course it explains it! The buying proposition is that you spend X$ and it will last only for $X months. That changes the TCO considerably.

Garvinator
08-05-2007, 07:43 PM
I keep hearing that laptop parts are really difficult to replace/update/upgrade, why is that?

Aaron Guthrie
08-05-2007, 07:44 PM
I haven't had any computer I use at home encounter any major problem in many years.

Basil
08-05-2007, 07:45 PM
Ok, that's fine. Cheapie, mid-range, high-end. Do you want to do the same for desktops and notebooks?
Let's just do hi-end (not rocket stuff - whatever you genuinely think is comparable in quality to mac - i'm leaving your known bias against macs to be resolved by your conscience - I reckon you're good for it).

We can do laptops later when I ask someone in the office what she bought last week.

Aaron Guthrie
08-05-2007, 07:46 PM
I keep hearing that laptop parts are really difficult to replace/update/upgrade, why is that?The old ones are hard to take apart, I don't know if they fixed that now. Probably also there is a problem of making the hardware to literally fit in the thing, and then having the next model be different, or something like that anyway :)

Basil
08-05-2007, 07:49 PM
That's interesting, because I reckon the last five years are when the ink-jet printers have started to really hit the spot in terms of quality. You are quite right about the con of the cheap printer (can anyone say Lexmark?) but I reckon you're missing out if you boycott the entire technology for that reason..
I'm on (colour) laser everywhere. Prefer to spend more on a quality product. Yes, I've bought 2 x Brother (cheapo) lasers (mono & colour) and won't do that again.

As for the photo stuff at home I do the separate colour photo maker thing. I accept that's my individual preference that gives me the best of all worlds and that other people's requirements are different. I have no use for a colour, wet, bubble-jet printed thingo. But as i say, that's just me and i appreciate they might be good for school projects, but then I'm back to colour lasers, which I think have more faithful reproduction anyway with their CMYK prints as opposed to RGB.

Desmond
08-05-2007, 07:55 PM
Disagree. There's still the cost of fixing. Time, petrol, phone calls, cost of someone to do it for you, frustration, inconvenience. It's all part of the deal.Actually, you aren't disagreeing. I never said those things didn't apply. They obviously do. The thing didn't fix itself because you left it for a couple of days. What I am saying is that TCO is more important to business than a consumer. Do you dispute that?


Disagree. The TCO of bubblejets is outrageous. I appreciate if you buy 'better' the bite won't be so hard, but whichever way you look at it - they're SOB's.Disagree with what? Are you disputing what I said about low-yield cartridges? Let me clarify something first. Are you talking about inkjets or lasers? Bubblejet was a Canon brand that they have not used for a long time.


Of course it explains it! The buying proposition is that you spend X$ and it will last only for $X months. That changes the TCO considerably.Can you elaborate? It seems that your argument is conflicting with your example. Aren't you saying that people want something that will cost them less over time and they are achieving this by buying the cheapest sticker price?

Desmond
08-05-2007, 07:59 PM
I keep hearing that laptop parts are really difficult to replace/update/upgrade, why is that?Because the salesman telling you that would rather sell you a new laptop for $2000 that he has on the shelf right now than hunt around and order a part that will take 3 weeks to get and he will make $20 on the sale. ;)

Basil
08-05-2007, 08:00 PM
Actually, you aren't disagreeing. I never said those things didn't apply. They obviously do. The thing didn't fix itself because you left it for a couple of days. What I am saying is that TCO is more important to business than a consumer. Do you dispute that?
No I don't dispute it. TCO is more important to business generally. I thought you were making the case that TCO wasn't relvant to consumers at all. TCO applies to all purchases, generally, and these days more so to consumers than previously.


Disagree with what? Are you disputing what I said about low-yield cartridges?
No, I'm not disputing that. I acknowledged that some are better than others.


Let me clarify something first. Are you talking about inkjets or lasers? Bubblejet was a Canon brand that they have not used for a long time.
My error. I'm talking about inkets. I've confused the issue by introducing a sub-set.

Desmond
08-05-2007, 08:06 PM
Let's just do hi-end (not rocket stuff - whatever you genuinely think is comparable in quality to mac - i'm leaving your known bias against macs to be resolved by your conscience - I reckon you're good for it).

We can do laptops later when I ask someone in the office what she bought last week.ok, but can you list the specs of your machine? The link you gave me is a configurator with many options.

Basil
08-05-2007, 08:07 PM
Can you elaborate? It seems that your argument is conflicting with your example. Aren't you saying that people want something that will cost them less over time and they are achieving this by buying the cheapest sticker price?
Sure.
Howard: I want a computer that "... will last me 5 years. I don't want to be back here next year with a problem or a redundant box".

Salesman: Well you can buy this widget for $50 and it's 50/50 whether I'll see you next year, or you can buy this gadget for $100 and you're as right as rain".

Howard: I'll take the gadget for a hundred bucks and get 5 years. I don't want to see you next year to buy a second widget, having parted with $100 (two lots of $50) and still crossing my fingers for the next 3 years.

That's (part of) the TCO argument. So answering your question directly, I am saying that people want something that will cost them the least over time. They will factor into their decision:
-- sticker price
-- maintenance costs (upgrades, repairs)
-- capacity to do the job in years to come - not be obsolete
-- hidden add on costs (oh you want some software and a monitor - example - not levelling at PC)

In other words, total cost of ownership.

Basil
08-05-2007, 08:20 PM
ok, but can you list the specs of your machine? The link you gave me is a configurator with many options.
Damn. I was hoping the config I selected would survive the link. It didn't.

OK.
-- 2 GHz Intel Core Duo (speed 1.5 Gigabit)
-- RAM 1 GB
-- 667 MHz (I don't think MHz translates because I think that PCs need more MHz for same result - but I'll have to check)
-- L2 cache per processor 4MB
-- 160 GB drive
-- Built in audio (internal mic, speakers)
-- Combo drive (CD/ DVD RW)
-- Bluetooth, Firewire, Airport
-- Monitor - LCD 1440x900, 32 bit ATI
-- Built-in iSight (Camera)
-- No modem, networkable ethernet
-- Free games, software (general stuff text editors and kids stuff)

Garvinator
08-05-2007, 08:24 PM
Sure.
Howard: I want a computer that "... will last me 5 years. I don't want to be back here next year with a problem or a redundant box".

Salesman: Well you can buy this widget for $50 and it's 50/50 whether I'll see you next year, or you can buy this gadget for $100 and you're as right as rain".

Howard: I'll take the gadget for a hundred bucks and get 5 years. I don't want to see you next year to buy a second widget, having parted with $100 (two lots of $50) and still crossing my fingers for the next 3 years.

That's (part of) the TCO argument. So answering your question directly, I am saying that people want something that will cost them the least over time. They will factor into their decision:
-- sticker price
-- maintenance costs (upgrades, repairs)
-- capacity to do the job in years to come - not be obsolete
-- hidden add on costs (oh you want some software and a monitor - example - not levelling at PC)

In other words, total cost of ownership.
I would also add into this- if something does 'break', how quick, cheap and easy is it to fix?

Basil
08-05-2007, 08:29 PM
I would also add into this- if something does 'break', how quick, cheap and easy is it to fix?
I think it's pretty quick on account of it being a volume and roaring trade [/troll]. Actually I don't know. Those that do won't tell. [/second troll]
OK, I just don't know.

pax
08-05-2007, 09:12 PM
As for the photo stuff at home I do the separate colour photo maker thing. I accept that's my individual preference that gives me the best of all worlds and that other people's requirements are different. I have no use for a colour, wet, bubble-jet printed thingo. But as i say, that's just me and i appreciate they might be good for school projects, but then I'm back to colour lasers, which I think have more faithful reproduction anyway with their CMYK prints as opposed to RGB.

What's the "separate colour photo maker thing" if it isn't an inkjet? (Good) inkjet photo printers produce a very, very good quality print. On the right paper they come out dry. Laser is probably better value if you only want a bit of spot colour, but for quality a 1 picolitre inkjet on high res paper is the jam. And last time I checked, nearly all inkjets were CMYK (mine is, at least).

Judging by your terminology, I guess your last experience with inkjet was the terrible Canon bubblejets of many years ago - so I won't blame you for your prejudice (I had one of those too).

Basil
08-05-2007, 09:54 PM
What's the "separate colour photo maker thing" if it isn't an inkjet?
It's a Kodak 6000 dock. I'm happy to call it an inkjet. It uses inkjet paper and as you say produces an excellent quality print & dry.


Laser is probably better value if you only want a bit of spot colour, but for quality a 1 picolitre inkjet on high res paper is the jam.
Laser is better value. That is my point.
When I print out mono documents (fin. reports, journals, spreadsheets and the like) I don't wanna be chewing through inkjet.
When I print out my little Garage Sale signs, I don't wanna be chewing through inkjet.
When I print out this and that, I don't wanna be chewing through inkjet.

Perhaps the cost of inkjet consumables has come down in recent years.


And last time I checked, nearly all inkjets were CMYK (mine is, at least).
Happy to accept that. I don't know. But that's a good thing.


Judging by your terminology, I guess your last experience with inkjet was the terrible Canon bubblejets of many years ago - so I won't blame you for your prejudice (I had one of those too).
It's actually one I never had. HP, Epson (x a few). Still have horror stories to this day from friends and colleagues. Happy to accept the stories as little more than limited anecdotal value seeing the exercise is a pre-disposed job towards to kicking them sans facts (a little like some anti-mac arguments ;))

Last time I went through the exercise if purchasing a cartridge for an ink-jet (not the Kodak) was about 4 years ago. Then about 6 weeks prior to that. And then again about 6 weeks prior to that :wall: :wall: :wall:

pax
08-05-2007, 10:04 PM
Damn. I was hoping the config I selected would survive the link. It didn't.

OK.
-- 2 GHz Intel Core Duo (speed 1.5 Gigabit)
-- RAM 1 GB
-- 667 MHz (I don't think MHz translates because I think that PCs need more MHz for same result - but I'll have to check)
-- L2 cache per processor 4MB
-- 160 GB drive
-- Built in audio (internal mic, speakers)
-- Combo drive (CD/ DVD RW)
-- Bluetooth, Firewire, Airport
-- Monitor - LCD 1440x900, 32 bit ATI
-- Built-in iSight (Camera)
-- No modem, networkable ethernet
-- Free games, software (general stuff text editors and kids stuff)

Ok, well here is a build for comparison:

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/show_product_info.php?input[product_code]=SY-FRAGBOXC2D&input[category_id]=1468
Monitor:
http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/show_product_info.php?input[product_code]=MO-AL1916W&input[category_id]=384

That comes out to a bit under the $1849 of your iMac. If you insist on a commercial OS, downgrade the video card to a nVidia 7300GT (still higher spec than the iMac - same as what comes with the 20" iMac) and get Vista Home Premium.

Summary:
-Core 2 Duo 2.13 GHz
-1GB Ram DDR2 (1 stick)
-Top quality box and power supply
-250GB SATA II Hard disk
-Very nice 19" Acer display
-nVidia 256MB 7300GT GPU
-Vista Home Premium (not sold on the Vista thing myself)

Basil
08-05-2007, 10:18 PM
Jon, your link didn't survive.

If it looks good to you, then it's a caching trick - same as did me in. But trust me, the cold link goes nowhere. What was the price? I'm only just getting started! ;)

Camera and combo drive in your specs? Couldn't see it in the summary. Can't read the link. Thanks.

Basil
08-05-2007, 10:38 PM
15 of the early mac ads for those that haven't reached 200 posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7ReS_ur4Kc&mode=related&search=

PERIPHERALS :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EbCyibkNB0

SNEAKY :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNibvttszzM

VISTA :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfCHuVrWHPk
MORE VISTA :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIuXnVs69PA
AND MY FAVOURITE VISTA SO FAR :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVNWFfrEzQk

pax
08-05-2007, 10:49 PM
Jon, your link didn't survive.

If it looks good to you, then it's a caching trick - same as did me in. But trust me, the cold link goes nowhere. What was the price? I'm only just getting started! ;)

Ah dang it!


Camera and combo drive in your specs? Couldn't see it in the summary. Can't read the link. Thanks.

Combo drive yes (silver pioneer RW everything), camera no. Price $1809 delivered.

Basil
08-05-2007, 11:01 PM
Combo drive yes (silver pioneer RW everything), camera no. Price $1809 delivered.

Cool. Thanks. Now for me, and my sensibilities, the mac wins hands down (I paid $1,800 flat).

I'm also happy for a PC person to say they got the better deal :hmm: My point in the beginning was that TCO was the same (if not better with a mac) & the being over-priced thing was inaccurate.

With your help, I think my assertion stands.

Extras that I get:
-- A camera
-- A salesperson who I can touch (that means something to me)
-- It was ready to go on the shelf - Walk in, Walk out. Using it in 1/2 an hour.
-- It does look excellent
-- Higher re-sale value
-- All-in-one unit (means something to me)
-- No viruses (that's something, in fact that a lot, right there)
-- No patches
-- The thing is going to go for years
-- No weekend trips to places (time, petrol etc.)
-- No downtime

I'm happy to call it evens! PCs have better games.

Basil
08-05-2007, 11:02 PM
BTW, what's a camera worth?
BTW 2, is there any substance to the chat about Vista sucking up heaps of juice and does a comparison require 2 GB memory?

Basil
08-05-2007, 11:15 PM
Can any owner of Vista confirm this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaIUkwPybtM&mode=related&search=) for me? FFS. I really really really dislike Microsoft. Tell me its a bad joke.

Look out for the chess vid!

Desmond
09-05-2007, 12:20 AM
Can any owner of Vista confirm this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaIUkwPybtM&mode=related&search=) for me? FFS. I really really really dislike Microsoft. Tell me its a bad joke.

Look out for the chess vid!Give me a break! :rolleyes: :hand:

Yes, a bad joke would be my description.

Basil
09-05-2007, 12:27 AM
Give me a break! :rolleyes: :hand:

Yes, a bad joke would be my description.

You're unreal Brian. You bang on for ever and a day that Mac have adopted an Intel chip (an independent supplier) and yet you pass off multiple direct cribs of the Mac OS as simply nothing.

Time to get real and consistent.

Your entire line in these discussions lack credibility, consistency and just about any semblance of bona fides.

Your answers to questions are:
-- selective
-- late
-- interspersed with concealed jokes
-- off topic

You're all over the shop. You've been hanging around fg and AO too long! :P

Desmond
09-05-2007, 12:35 AM
You're unreal Brian. You bang on for ever and a day that Mac have adopted an Intel chip (an independent supplier) and yet you pass off multiple direct cribs of the Mac OS as simply nothing.

Time to get real and consistent.

Your entire line in these discussions lack credibility, consistency and just about any semblance of bona fides.

Your answers to questions are:
-- selective
-- late
-- interspersed with concealed jokes
-- off topic

You're all over the shop. You've been hanging around fg and AO too long! :POk Howard, if you think the video is so great, list the main points and I will rebutt them. I'm particularly looking forward to you trying to defend that Mac was the first software supplier to EVER use a customisable chessboard.

Garvinator
09-05-2007, 12:41 AM
Is this now clock thread mark 2, 3 or 4?

Basil
09-05-2007, 12:51 AM
list the main points and I will rebutt them.

As a whole premise Windows looks more like mac with every release.

10 years ago the platforms looked very dissimilar
That was when the Gates / Windows substandard thing was in full swing and running in its own direction - south. With the ever increasing spotlight on the differences between the two systems, the Microsoft boys got a) clueless, b) busy.

The terminology similarities crept in
The the design elements crept in

With this release
-- The triangles and collapsible folder system
-- iCal
-- iPhoto (you'd have to a mac user to appreciate the audacity)

are blatant design rip-offs. Practically identical!

-- Mac's 'Spotlight' / Microsoft's 'Start menu'
Are you serious? It's the same bloody thing!

-- Gadgets / Widgets
Well that's just a freakin' joke! It's laughable.

Talk about hand in the cookie jar - and you want to defend this!? Go right ahead.

pax
09-05-2007, 09:34 AM
Cool. Thanks. Now for me, and my sensibilities, the mac wins hands down (I paid $1,800 flat).

I'm also happy for a PC person to say they got the better deal :hmm: My point in the beginning was that TCO was the same (if not better with a mac) & the being over-priced thing was inaccurate.

With your help, I think my assertion stands.

Extras that I get:
-- A camera
-- A salesperson who I can touch (that means something to me)
-- It was ready to go on the shelf - Walk in, Walk out. Using it in 1/2 an hour.
-- It does look excellent
-- Higher re-sale value
-- All-in-one unit (means something to me)
-- No viruses (that's something, in fact that a lot, right there)
-- No patches
-- The thing is going to go for years
-- No weekend trips to places (time, petrol etc.)
-- No downtime

I'm happy to call it evens! PCs have better games.

I hope you realise I was quoting to your price and not your specification. For the price, I get:

-Better processor
-Bigger hard drive
-Bigger monitor (17" is pretty small in today's market)
-Much better video card
-A really excellent power supply.
-An expandable computer (PCI, PCI-E etc).
-I can change or upgrade the monitor, video card, processor, motherboard according to my requirements at any time.
-I also expect it to go for years, and no downtime.

Flexibility is the biggest problem with the Mac. What if I don't need a camera, wireless and bluetooth? What if I want the nVidia graphics, but the 2.0GHz processor? Or the 20" monitor and the 1.83 GHz processor?

Macs are great if you find one that matches your budget and requirements precisely, but if not you are stuck with the 'next best thing'. And believe it or not, not everybody likes the look of an iMac (any colour as long as it's white).

Rincewind
09-05-2007, 09:50 AM
Is this now clock thread mark 2, 3 or 4?

Yeah, who would have thought this thread would have legs?

Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly with Pax. I have had the same computer for the last 4 years though in that time I've changed (at various times) the monitor, motherboard, CPU, optical drive, case and power supply. I've also added many cards and additional hard drives over time. But it is still the same computer! :)

That simply wouldn;t have been possible under a MAC. As I also buy my parts at computer markets, my total cost of ownership is probably still below and entry level iMac.

(PS Speakers, RAM, video card, FDD and one HDD are orignal)

pax
09-05-2007, 09:51 AM
Can any owner of Vista confirm this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaIUkwPybtM&mode=related&search=) for me? FFS. I really really really dislike Microsoft. Tell me its a bad joke.

Look out for the chess vid!

Ok, so let me get this straight. Apple claims ownership of calendars, photo organisers, desktop search, desktop apps, little triangle thingys for opening folders and 3d chess games with selectable materials? Gimme a break.

Ok, the gadget/widget thing is a bit silly. But honestly there are a lot of programs out there that do all these things.

OSes evolve. It makes perfect sense for good ideas to be adopted from different places. Did Apple steal spotlight from Google Desktop search? Maybe, but who cares - indexed filesystem search is an excellent idea and should be built into all operating systems.

Basil
09-05-2007, 05:36 PM
I hope you realise I was quoting to your price and not your specification.
No, I didn't realise that. I thought yoou were quoting to specs.


For the price, I get:
-Better processor
-Bigger hard drive
-Bigger monitor (17" is pretty small in today's market)
-Much better video card
-A really excellent power supply.
-An expandable computer (PCI, PCI-E etc).
-I can change or upgrade the monitor, video card, processor, motherboard according to my requirements at any time.
-I also expect it to go for years, and no downtime.

That sounds like a good deal for you and many others. It's not for me, because as we've (I've) established there are more (different) aspects to the purchase decision.

I'd still be interested in a spec for spec comparison, if you have the time & inclination.


Flexibility is the biggest problem with the Mac. What if I don't need a camera, wireless and bluetooth? What if I want the nVidia graphics, but the 2.0GHz processor? Or the 20" monitor and the 1.83 GHz processor?

I think if you want those things, and the nearest mac at the time doesn't quite get there, then that's another good case (advantage) for the PC. It's certainly not something that has affected me or my friends and colleagues. I think you sum it up well, below.


Macs are great if you find one that matches your budget and requirements precisely, but if not you are stuck with the 'next best thing'.
I would add that the G3, G4 and now G5 towers have had expandibility that would more than cover what you mention above (monitors, graphic cards etc.), but I appreciate those machines were not considered run-of-the-mill budget friendly jobs for mainstream mid-stream users. Therfore your assertion stands (with my caveat).


And believe it or not, not everybody likes the look of an iMac (any colour as long as it's white).
Seriously, I do accept that (as hard as it is for me to get my head around!).

Thanks for the comments.

Basil
09-05-2007, 05:44 PM
Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly with Pax. I have had the same computer for the last 4 years though in that time I've changed (at various times) the monitor, motherboard, CPU, optical drive, case and power supply. I've also added many cards and additional hard drives over time. But it is still the same computer! :)
Not according to Boris if you switched to Intel chips! :owned:
OK, he didn't make that exact point - but close enough. Must buy Boris a beer sometime soon and stop this rubbish! ;)


That simply wouldn't have been possible under a MAC.
Yes it would (but not in all cases). Refer my comments regarding expandability in my answer to pax.


As I also buy my parts at computer markets, my total cost of ownership is probably still below and entry level iMac.
Are we / you:
a) comparing similar specs, and
b) also incorporating the time and expense of the new product, getting them and installing them? If you write these costs to zero, that's fine by me - I just think it should be acknowledged to frame the full comparison.

I can think of many situations where I would be prepared to tinker / upgrade and not classify it as money or trouble. So just to be clear, I'm not trying to dissuade you from your position, just trying to get the full picture.

Basil
09-05-2007, 06:10 PM
Ok, so let me get this straight.
No. Let me set you straight. Looking for a bona fide attitude here. I'll do same. It's not a devastating stretch to give this one up.


Apple claims ownership of calendars, photo organisers, desktop search, desktop apps, little triangle thingys for opening folders and 3d chess games with selectable materials?
Apple does not claim ownership of them. I have not claimed ownership of them. I have not suggested any ownership.

My position is this:
-- What Microsoft have done is not illegal.
-- Much of what Apple have done is not 'original-to-the-universe'.
-- Some of what Apple has done is ground-breaking and benchmark setting.
-- But collectively, with all its elements (software and design), Apple is a trend-setter. (That doesn't infer you or anyone likes the trends, but it sets them, anyway).
-- Broadly, the Windows platform is more glitchy, more reserved and more backward-looking (compared to expectations and its competitors) when new releases appear.
-- For a company that enjoys such a massive market share (both fairly and unfairly aquired), with inconceivable resources, their offerings can only be described as shabby. Countless millions of PC users agree. There's no disgrace in acknowledging that.
-- Given all of the above, it would be reasonable for the giant, and Microsoft is a giant of incredible proportions, to lead the way and not lag - both in innovation and timely releases.
-- The lack of timely releases requires no futher dissertation from me. It's a universal gimme and doesn't upset me at all!

And so, with all that in mind, I say that none of the individual elements of the 'mac presence' amount to much, and certainly some of those elements had their origins from elsewhere. But mac has brought them altogether to form a personality and collectively to form a unique style - a bit like a fashion statement if you will. Or perhaps what makes a Porsche a Porsche. Any number of analogies would be close.

And I now say that Microsoft have concertedly taken a number of elements (previously and presently) from that mac personality and the two platforms are very similar in appearance and function.

There's probably a hundred little cribs over a 15 year span:
Progress bars, Control Panels, The look and interactivity of folders etc. all microcsms I agree, but all developed by mac, and all 'hey, that's a neat little treatment' cribbed by Microsoft. To the uninitiated Windows user, this would be brand new information. These little things just appeared and seemed natural.

It's not a crime. It happens everywhere. But like most rip-offs (the entirety, not the individual elements), they are a poor second. Some people will care, others won't. Others again will selectively care depending on what they are justifying.

I was simply stating my loathing for it from one of the true giants in modern commerce.

Rincewind
09-05-2007, 06:13 PM
Not according to Boris if you switched to Intel chips!

The computer was originally running AMD and I switched to Intel.


Yes it would (but not in all cases). Refer my comments regarding expandability in my answer to pax.

Not in all cases is a "no".


Are we / you:
a) comparing similar specs, and
b) also incorporating the time and expense of the new product, getting them and installing them? If you write these costs to zero, that's fine by me - I just think it should be acknowledged to frame the full comparison.

Personally I like the tinkering so it actually reduces the total cost of ownership as I did not have to invest money in other forms of entertainment. :)

But seriously it is all about options. If you can find a Mac which suits you and the small number of upgrade paths also suits your future requirements then you are probably not too far behind the eight ball.

pax
09-05-2007, 06:20 PM
I'd still be interested in a spec for spec comparison, if you have the time & inclination.


Ok, here goes (sorry for the crappy formatting):



ASRock Conroe1333-DVIH LGA775 945G P4/C2D MATX M/B, DDR2, PCI-E x16, 2x PCI, SATA, dual-video, audio, GigaLAN $137.50

AL-NSK2400 Antec NSK2400 MicroATX Silver/Black case w/380Watt PSU, front IO, 2x 5.25, 2x 3.5 bays $154.00

AL-VS1GB667D2 Corsair 1024MB Value Select PC-5300, 240-pin DDR2 RAM, not compatible with DDR motherboards $99.00

MU-PIODVRA12XLS Pioneer DVR-A12XLC Silver IDE DVD-RW, 8x +/-DL, 18x DVD+/-R, 12x DVD-RAM read, 8x/6x DVD+/-RW $99.00

MO-SA740B-SL Samsung 17" 740B Silver TFT 8ms Monitor, 1280x1024 300cd, 600:1, VGA / DVI $319.00

CP-BX80557E4400 Intel Core2 Duo E4400 2.0Ghz (Conroe 800FSB) Processor, Dual core LGA775 2mb cache $236.50

AL-HD160JJ 160Gb Samsung 7200rpm SATA-II hard disk, 8mb cache $113.30

AIT-VGCPR53BGPD Powercolor ATI Radeon X1600 Pro 256MB 128-bit AGP8x/4x Video Card, DVI, VGA, TV Out $187.00

DC-64L-00001 Microsoft Lifecam VX-1000, USB camera w/microphone & swivelling base $64.90

AL-WL-138G-V2 Asus WL-138g V2 Wireless 802.11B/G PCI Card $55.00

NE-SK3881 Skymaster Clear USB ClassI Bluetooth adapter, 100m range, works with PDA/phones $38.50

CO-SKD1311 Skymaster Firewire IEEE1394 PCI Card, w/3 ports, 6-4 cable & editing software $44

Total $1550.

Pretty much identical specs down to bluetooth, wireless, camera and firewire.

Could probably get it cheaper if I looked for a Mobo with Firewire on board. Also this is component-for-component so wouldn't be as cheap as the big retailers can manage on special. Not too bad though. It's a case I like.

Basil
09-05-2007, 06:21 PM
The computer was originally running AMD and I switched to Intel.
Oops! :P


Not in all cases is a "no".
:hmm: You said upgrades "would simply not be possible with a mac". I sought to clarify what was presented as an absolute.

I observed that upgrades are not possible with some macs. Other mac are hugely upgradeable.


Personally I like the tinkering so it actually reduces the total cost of ownership as I did not have to invest money in other forms of entertainment. :)
Indeed. I had a couple of Morris Minors and the world thought I was batty (they were right but for the wrong reasons). I think it's important that prospective PC people should have access to this information when considering their purchases. My parents in their 70s, for example, require a new computer, and the PC brother is heading overseas. Can you imagine?


But seriously it is all about options. If you can find a Mac which suits you and the small number of upgrade paths also suits your future requirements then you are probably not too far behind the eight ball.
And sometimmes in front of it! ;)

Basil
09-05-2007, 06:31 PM
Ok, here goes

Total $1550.

Pretty much identical specs down to bluetooth, wireless, camera and firewire.

Could probably get it cheaper if I looked for a Mobo with Firewire on board. Also this is component-for-component so wouldn't be as cheap as the big retailers can manage on special. Not too bad though. It's a case I like.

Thanks. I didn't read the specs, but certainly take your word for it. Let's say the machines do the same job and have the same wear and tear etc etc..

-- The PC is $250 in front.
-- I'd guess that by most people's standards, the mac looks nicer, takes up less space. Perhaps the PC has a powder-coated or sprayed on paint job. I think it's yuk. You have convinced me that many would disagree, and it's a matter of taste.
-- I'm guessing that PC will need a trip or two to the doctor over 5 years. Evidence offered here suggests that might not be the case. However, my discussion is with 3 tech savvy guys. Don't know how home-user would go. Perhaps you can tell me.
-- PC will have viruses and glitches. I think that's fair. This will need, time and attention and downtime. Sometimes perhaps very inconvenient.
-- Mac will have a more pleasant interface. Granted personal opinion but in all honesty, I have yet to EVER, I mean EVER meet or hear from anyone who says that the PC interface is actuallly nicer. Quite common is "hey, what's the diff?" or "if the mac thing gets you off, go for it", but never that the Windows thing is attractive.
-- The mac will have a higher re-sale value

My summary:
The mac is the better buy (for me). All that's worth the $250 difference over 5 years. Plus I get some back on the re-sale.
The PC will be the better buy for others - as you and Barry have made a good case.

Conclusion:
TCO is arguable both ways depending on personals. The premise (whoever holds asserts it) that the TCO of a mac is prohibitive, is both misinformed and incorrect.

pax
09-05-2007, 11:00 PM
-- I'd guess that by most people's standards, the mac looks nicer, takes up less space. Perhaps the PC has a powder-coated or sprayed on paint job. I think it's yuk. You have convinced me that many would disagree, and it's a matter of taste.

I assume that you are admitting bias here. I mean "it's yuk" even though you haven't seen it? Even though you could choose a hundred cases. It's yuk unless it's a Mac?



-- PC will have viruses and glitches. I think that's fair. This will need, time and attention and downtime. Sometimes perhaps very inconvenient.


I have to say that I have never in the last ten years had to deal with a virus on a PC. The virus thing is way overstated. A decent firewall and an iota of common sense prevents 99.9% of possible issues. A decent virus scanner takes care of the rest. It's really not an issue. In my case, I usually use Linux which has zero problems anyway.



-- Mac will have a more pleasant interface. Granted personal opinion but in all honesty, I have yet to EVER, I mean EVER meet or hear from anyone who says that the PC interface is actuallly nicer. Quite common is "hey, what's the diff?" or "if the mac thing gets you off, go for it", but never that the Windows thing is attractive.


Maybe. I seldom go for the window dressing myself, as it usually comes at a cost in speed. Power and functionality rate much higher in my book.



-- The mac will have a higher re-sale value
Again maybe. Have you provided any evidence to this? Again it doesn't really affect me, as I don't cycle my computers often enough for resale to play any significant factor. You may be underestimating the resale value of a second hand PC though - there is a decent market for obsolete PC parts and sometimes old memory etc can be worth quite a significant proportion of it's original value.

Anyway, each to his own. I am still trying to find an excuse to buy a Mac Mini :)

Basil
09-05-2007, 11:15 PM
I assume that you are admitting bias here. I mean "it's yuk" even though you haven't seen it? Even though you could choose a hundred cases. It's yuk unless it's a Mac?
No, I wasn't admitting bias. But I will! There's no doubt I am predisposed towards mac.

However, we're not talking bigotry! I do have a basis for my belief and a well-founded one after having seen countless thousands of PCs on shop shelves and in situ. I find the the build of poor quality. I find the finish of poor quality. I find the ad hoc nature of the design poor quality.

All that said, I'm certain there exists a PC design that I could appreciate - perhaps many, and after so many years of riling against Gates, Windows, PC snap-togethers, perhaps it's a case of 'not wanting to see'.

As a result of these somewhat enlightening discussions to see (and understand) how the other half (95%) lives, I shall be sure to keep a more honest weather eye open.

As a footnote, I was in Officeworks on the weekend; looking at laser printers as it happens!, and I took a brief moment to look upon the PC offerings. I was most unimpressed and my comments above stand. Perhaps that store isn't a good choice, and I'd certainly accept that the range isn't representative of the many many designs available.

Basil
09-05-2007, 11:33 PM
... The virus thing is way overstated. A decent firewall and an iota of common sense prevents 99.9% of possible issues...
OK. My only evidence is anecdotal - albeit considerable in quantity.
BTW, factor in the cost of the anti-virus software?


In my case, I usually use Linux which has zero problems anyway.
I'm a big fan of Linux. I know next to nothing about it, but am aware it was a considerable basis for OS X. It's independent. It works! It's simple and effective. Open source? And there's no ant-trust. And it doesn't retard the industry!
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eTguZ5OzJ4) you go.


I seldom go for the window dressing myself, as it usually comes at a cost in speed. Power and functionality rate much higher in my book.
Well then it would fair to write that aspect of the mac to zero (or minimal) in your (and other like-minded people's) books.


Have you provided any evidence to this?
I haven't. Dare I say, I thought it was reasonably well-known! :eek: :P
But I didn't say it loosely. I genuinely believe it - based on both anecdotal and real experience (I have a brother with a PC and I read the trading post!), but it'd be a good exercise for me to check it. I'll let you know.


I am still trying to find an excuse to buy a Mac Mini :)
Do it! Do it now! Many vestal virgins, HCDs and that special feeling awaits!

Rincewind
09-05-2007, 11:37 PM
factor in the cost of the anti-virus software?

I started off using Norton's and was a satuisfied paying customer but they lost the plot with their software around 3 years ago and so I looked for alternatives. Since then I've been using Avast home and it has been fantastic and totally free.

Basil
09-05-2007, 11:41 PM
I started off using Norton's and was a satuisfied paying customer but they lost the plot with their software around 3 years ago and so I looked for alternatives. Since then I've been using Avast home and it has been fantastic and totally free.
Good one. There's some damn good free/share ware stuff out there.

Interesting to hear you say Norton lost the plot about three years ago. We used them for disk maintenance for years and I reached the same conclusion around about the time they stopped supporting 10.4 (mac) - it was actually just prior to, and not because of).

I wonder how the company is going after having such a profound impact (market penetration) on both platforms for many years.

pax
09-05-2007, 11:45 PM
OK. My only evidence is anecdotal - albeit considerable in quantity.
BTW, factor in the cost of the anti-virus software?


As RW says, the less-crap ones are actually the free ones!

Basil
09-05-2007, 11:57 PM
Anyway, each to his own. I am still trying to find an excuse to buy a Mac Mini :)

And of course, there is the lure of a gold leaf engraving here (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=151971&postcount=1). And money can't buy that ;)

Basil
10-05-2007, 12:40 AM
Ok, here goes
Total $1550.

Pretty much identical specs down to bluetooth, wireless, camera and firewire.

Couple of afterthoughts.

1) Keyboard and mouse?
The mac comes with a sexy keyboard and mighty-mouse. Do we need to adjust your quote for similar specs?

2) Snap together time?
Is your config one that requires build, or is it ready to ship WIWO?

Important for non tech types.

pax
10-05-2007, 09:52 AM
Couple of afterthoughts.

1) Keyboard and mouse?
The mac comes with a sexy keyboard and mighty-mouse. Do we need to adjust your quote for similar specs?
Ok, add $55 for the Logitech keyboard/mouse pair.



2) Snap together time?
Is your config one that requires build, or is it ready to ship WIWO?

Important for non tech types.

Build is included. But it's important to realize that most PCs are very easy to "snap together" as you put it. You certainly don't need to be a techie. It helps if you don't have a morbid fear that opening the lid is going to cause the computer to spontaneously combust, but generally it's simply a matter of finding the plug that fits the hole.

ElevatorEscapee
22-05-2007, 04:25 PM
The latest from Apple!

Very funny youtube style video from Mad TV, it should give Howard & Boris a laugh at least. :)

http://www.glumbert.com/media/irack

Basil
22-05-2007, 06:08 PM
Very clever parody! Good one.

I don't think it's in the spirit to pick holes with the logic. So I just settled back for laugh - and I got one. Thanks EE.

Footnote:
In the first part of the vid, Apple actually released the first 3 items and set the pace. It was of course the rest of the world that copied iEverything and saturated your KMarts and Harvey Normans with the 'me-too' products; but that's another story.

Basil
07-06-2007, 01:40 AM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand back in the room.

This one is for mac people ...and that well advertised smug bast@rd attitude we have. Want to know what some other platforms will be doing in a couple of years? Well look here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

Check out:
a) Time Machine, and
b) Widgets (improvements for instance)

PC peepz may wish to leave negative trolling comments in the widely popular Vista thread or similar

Bill Gletsos
07-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Sun's Jonathan Schwartz announced today at Sun event in Washington D.C. that Apple would be making ZFS "the file system" in Mac OS 10.5 Leopard.

ZFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zettabyte_File_System)

Basil
07-06-2007, 03:20 PM
Let's hope Boris doesn't find out - else I'll hear more about 'it' being less of a mac - which in the strictest sense is true (compared to its roots), but not in any event something to prevent mac lovers not loving macs for all the things that are uniquely mac.

Southpaw Jim
13-06-2007, 01:23 PM
On the original thread topic, I expect to be returning to the fold after a 15 year absence - a nice little MacBook is looking to be on the cards :)

The first family computer was a wonderful little Macintosh Classic, but unfortunately 2 years later it was replaced with a butt-ugly 386 DX2 66 when my brother started to learn CADD. However, now - with the Intel chipsets - I can return to computing bliss, whilst still able to use the one or two Windows programs I can't do without :D

Assuming all goes well with the sale of our investment property, the aforementioned MacBook will be one of the extravagances purchased out of the filthy capital gains we will garner :D I expect a little bit has changed since System 5.0... :eek:

Speaking of Leopard - does anyone know if Apple will upgrade any systems bought between now and Leopard's release for free? I know it's not likely, but it'd be nice since it's release is imminent..

Basil
13-06-2007, 02:01 PM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/emoticondancer.gif http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/emoticondancer.gif http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/emoticondancer.gif

On the original thread topic, I expect to be returning to the fold after a 15 year absence - a nice little MacBook is looking to be on the cards :)

100 HCDs payable on receipt of advice of purchase.
The Honour Roll (the original post) will be updated at the same time.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/gora.gif

Basil
13-06-2007, 02:41 PM
I expect a little bit has changed since System 5.0... :eek:
Hi Bruce
Yes, just a bit. I still have some system 7 system disks. Been here (http://www.apple.com/) recently?

Basil
13-06-2007, 03:09 PM
Just downloaded the beta Safari 3 (also for Windows). Trial results = good results so far.

http://www.apple.com/safari/

Southpaw Jim
13-06-2007, 03:42 PM
Bruce? :eh:

Basil
13-06-2007, 04:19 PM
Hi Bruce
Yes, just a bit. I still have some system 7 system disks. Been here (http://www.apple.com/) recently?Bruce? :eh:
I'd be grateful if any of the Bruces who read this post would please explain the to the poster formerly known as James (Eurotrash) the reason for his being referred to as Bruce.

Southpaw Jim
13-06-2007, 04:46 PM
I suspected it might be something Pythonesque, but haven't been following threads in the General forum lately... ;)

Basil
13-06-2007, 06:37 PM
I suspected it might be something Pythonesque, but haven't been following threads in the General forum lately... ;)
Well in that case, Bruce, I suggest you *don't* {that's for you Bruce Guthrie} read this thread (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=6510), especially post #19.

pax
15-06-2007, 10:06 AM
Just downloaded the beta Safari 3 (also for Windows). Trial results = good results so far.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2007/06/cultofmac_0612

:)

Southpaw Jim
15-06-2007, 12:19 PM
Assuming all goes well with the sale of our investment property

Contract signed today! 30 days to Mac-dom! :owned:

Basil
15-06-2007, 03:13 PM
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2007/06/cultofmac_0612

:)
Interesting, Bruce. Now, what does it all mean? :D

-- That Firefox is a better browser than Safari 2.X? I have to agree.
-- That Firefox is better than Safari 3 beta? Don't know. Safari seems better ATM IMO. Early days.
-- That Windows users won't use Safari. Still too early. Even I !! will use the browser that best suits my needs - I don't think PC users are any different - perhaps even more amenable to the concept.

I think it all hinges on how good the Safari browser turns out to be.


Contract signed today! 30 days to Mac-dom! :owned:
May great things happen to you and your family! Just ordering the gold leaf paint now.

Denis_Jessop
15-06-2007, 10:10 PM
Actually, I'd rank Safari about on a par with Camino (Camino is prettier and Safari is deadly dull) and well behind Opera and Firefox because I'm not mad about blazing speed and Opera and Firefox manage bookmarks so much better so that sites are much more easily accessible. Opera is a bit odd in that the drop-down menus don't work on the FIDE website. iCab was fun but the German developers have had it in beta form now for about a million years (it must be the most stable beta program in computerdom) and its Intel version doesn't yet support all the quirky add-ons that you could get before. Firefox leads the field for those. Still, it's nice having 5 browsers - if one drives you mad you just open another one.:cool:

DJ

PS Even as I speak, I find that Camino 1.5 was released on 5 June though just how much better it is I don't know yet. It claims to do all sorts of things but they don't seem to include better bookmark management.

Basil
20-06-2007, 08:04 PM
... Still, it's nice having 5 browsers - if one drives you mad you just open another one.:cool:
I must caution care about mentioning 5 of anything on this forum :uhoh:

Euro .. Paint's arrived!

Garvinator
20-06-2007, 09:14 PM
High priced consultant... how many HCD's is that worth?

ElevatorEscapee
16-07-2007, 07:21 PM
Can the Mac users here tell me of any computer chess games that can run on the Mac?

Basil
16-07-2007, 09:23 PM
Can the Mac users here tell me of any computer chess games that can run on the Mac?
I highly recommend SIGMA http://www.sigmachess.com/

There'd be shareware stuff as well. Not to mention t e3 D talking game that comes with OX 10.3 and better

Why do you ask? :eek:

Denis_Jessop
16-07-2007, 09:27 PM
Can the Mac users here tell me of any computer chess games that can run on the Mac?

By far the strongest is the downloadable but commercial Sigma Chess 6.1.4 coupled with HIARCS 11 chess engine. Here is a blurb from the site:


Sigma Chess is a master strength Macintosh chess program for both OS X and Classic Mac OS. The feature set includes: Optional HIARCS engine, UCI Engine support, Databases, PGN/EPD, basic desktop publishing, endgame databases, novice levels, a true perspective 3D board, ExaChess compatibility and much more.

The HIARCS engine is only available for Mac OSX. Sigma Chess itself has its own engine (quite good) and you can download a free Lite version which is not too bad.

Mac OSX has its own chess program built-in but I haven't tried out its capabilities.

There are other programs - GNU Chess used to work but I'm not sure of its current standing.

The Sigma Chess home page at http://www.sigmachess.com/home.html has a link to Macintosh chess sites among other things.

DJ

Southpaw Jim
17-07-2007, 08:44 AM
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that with a current-generation Mac (ie last 2 years), you can probably run any chess game on the planet, be it from Windows or Linux.

Current-generation Macs with the Intel chipsets can either:

1. Run an instance of Windows/Linux within OS X using virtualisation software, such as Parallels; or

2. Install Windows/Linux on a separate partition of the HDD, and dual-boot using Boot Camp.

Can't speak from experience, as I won't have my MacBook Pro for a couple of weeks yet, but I'm hoping I should be able to run Fritz 9 with no problems :cool: :owned:

ElevatorEscapee
17-07-2007, 08:12 PM
Thanks guys. :) - We have a new club member who only has access to a Mac (not sure how recent) who was interested in chess programs, I had no idea what to reccomend.

Desmond
17-07-2007, 08:35 PM
Thanks guys. :) - We have a new club member who only has access to a Mac (not sure how recent) who was interested in chess programs, I had no idea what to reccomend.A PC perhaps?

pax
18-07-2007, 10:01 PM
A PC perhaps?
Boom, boom. But it's true - boot camp windows onto it and you can run Arena and your pick of great free engines..

Basil
29-07-2007, 09:42 PM
Contract signed today! 30 days to Mac-dom! :owned:
:whistle:

Southpaw Jim
30-07-2007, 12:33 PM
You may've missed this in the Netscape thread:


@ Duggers - BTW, slight miscalculation - finance hasn't been confirmed yet, so the 30 days are yet to start ticking.

To top it off, the real estate agent neglected to point out that the finance clause was 21 days, :mad: our fault for not checking though.

On the bright side, settlement should be by next Wednesday at the latest and, thanks to some wizardry by our accountant, a 15" MacBook Pro (cf. a 13" MacBook) is now the #1 choice ;)

Basil
30-07-2007, 12:47 PM
You may've missed this in the Netscape thread
I didn't miss it. I clocked it. I forgot it. I remembered it. I went looking for it. I couldn't find it. I thought I'd imagined it. You'd hidden it!

Everybody carry on!

pax
01-08-2007, 12:56 PM
Choices, choices:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2150810,00.asp


http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2146915,00.asp
(well actually, a more up to date version of this with similar specs to the Dell above)

Southpaw Jim
02-08-2007, 11:51 AM
:whistle:

This is OS X to Earth, come in, copy? :owned:

Basil
02-08-2007, 01:42 PM
This is OS X to Earth, come in, copy? :owned:
:clap: :clap:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/notworthy.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/notworthy.gif

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/handclap.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/handclap.gif

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/overhere.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/overhere.gif

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/emoticondancer.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/emoticondancer.gif

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/breakn.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/breakn.gif

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/dancingbanana.gifhttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/dancingbanana.gif

Basil
02-08-2007, 01:43 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott
Eurotrash

Desmond
02-08-2007, 05:58 PM
Patches, bugs, no - this couldn't be Apple could it? (http://www.crn.com.au/story.aspx?CIID=88140&r=rstory)

Denis_Jessop
02-08-2007, 08:30 PM
Patches, bugs, no - this couldn't be Apple could it? (http://www.crn.com.au/story.aspx?CIID=88140&r=rstory)

It's part of a sophisticated campaign to make the many PC converts feel more comfortable.

DJ

Basil
11-08-2007, 07:19 PM
Denis, sharing this with you (over here for good reason). Bought a couple of ex lease eMacs (G5 in case you're not familiar - discontinued) last week for $300 each.

The staff at the office (who generally come from PC households - that's what Daddy taught them to use) who have experienced both platforms want 'in' on the action.

They have asked my advice - "Hey Howard, should I get one for home? I love these macs. What do you reckon?" I warn them that gaming isn't their strong point. They're response?

"Pfff f&hk that - I don't play games". Two girls, one boy. Age group 21 - 31. 3 sales. Cha-ching!

Basil
31-10-2007, 01:41 PM
Now running 10.5 Leopard
This is tha business.

I could seriously go on - but I won't. I couldn't do this piece of craftsmanship justice : http://www.apple.com/macosx/

I will 'reductio ad silliness' by observing that the desktop folders have now switched back to 2D! The nuances on this baby are gr8!

Readers recall my baying at the hapless plonkers that are (is) Microsoft and the innumerate girly copies they've made of MAC OS over the years - all the while exciting millions of PCs users with new frontiers that were a) pinched and b) old. PC peepz - 2D folders coming back to a screen near you - some time in 2015.

I'm off to play with stuff (that doesn't crash ;))

Aaron Guthrie
31-10-2007, 02:37 PM
I will 'reductio ad silliness' by observing that the desktop folders have now switched back to 2D! The nuances on this baby are gr8!

Readers recall my baying at the hapless plonkers that are (is) Microsoft and the innumerate girly copies they've made of MAC OS over the years - all the while exciting millions of PCs users with new frontiers that were a) pinched and b) old. PC peepz - 2D folders coming back to a screen near you - some time in 2015.I can only assume that you are talking about a move from 3D to 2D folders. To which I must ask, what the flip is a 3D folder?


With 300+ new features, Leopard is the most impressive Mac OS X version yet.They are pushing the quantity aspect, but I see not why when they have included a flipping time machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/timemachine.html)!

Southpaw Jim
04-11-2007, 08:30 PM
Now running 10.5 Leopard
This is tha business.

I could seriously go on - but I won't.
Tease.

Go on, whaddya like about it? I'm going to have to wait a few months :(

Basil
17-12-2007, 02:28 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott
Eurotrash
Sleepless

Spiny Norman
17-12-2007, 02:45 PM
One man's Honour Board is another man's Shame File ... of course, that can cut both ways ... (http://www.croydonchess.com/About/HonourBoard/tabid/753/Default.aspx)

Mephistopheles
22-12-2007, 12:02 PM
I mostly lurk on this board but I can't help but contribute to this thread. I'll be blunt and trollish when I say that I'm amazed that these passionate arguments can honestly be held between folks who appear to be informed by their prejudices alone.

When it comes down to the so-called "Mac vs PC" debate, there are two considerations:

1) What's good for me or my business or
2) What people in general should be using.

The correct answer to (2) is "whatever they damned well please". People use what they are comfortable with and what they perceive as yielding the best results that they can obtain. If they're happy then it's not for us to tell them that they're doing the wrong thing, even if we feel that they would be better to use a different tool. Advocacy should be about "hey, did you know that Product X could make your life easier by doing Y" rather than "what you're using is bunk - get rid of it".

(1) seems to be misunderstood by just about everyone who's contributed to this thread and comes down to exactly what kind of person you are or what the nature of the job at hand happens to be.

Me, I'm an unabashed Mac user and fan. I've been using Macs since the day of the 128k toaster sized Mac and I'm currently the proud owner of a black MacBook which serves my needs in all ways save for gaming. I have worked in the IT industry (pfegh!) for the best part of 15 years with most of that time having been spent administering Unix servers of one kind or another. For that purpose, the Mac has always had better tools than its Windows equivalent (or at least during the time that I've been doing this stuff) and even more so now that OS X is blessed with BSD foundations.

At home, I use a Mac because it fits my criteria, which are as follows:
* Ease of use
* Availability of the tools/software that I need
* Bang for the buck
* The implicit "niceness" of the object's design

The thing that I've noticed about Howard's affection for the Mac is that, while he acknowledges the fourth criterion from his own point of view, he does not acknowledge that it is the prime motivation behind his purchasing decision. That's right. The hardware just looks sexier and so does the software. In terms of functionality and reliability, there's little or nothing to separate a Mac from an equivalently priced, brand-name Windows PC. From my perspective, I find Windows a little fiddly but, like the Mac, it just works. That's something that Mac advocates now have to get used to. We generally buy partly out of brand loyalty but mostly because Apple's stuff looks cool and carries with it some kind of cachet.

If there is one technical advantage that Macs have over Windows PCs, it is actually the fact that the hardware and software are proprietary and designed specifically to be integrated. No matter how you argue it, the same cannot be said of Windows, which is designed to run on commodity hardware (and does a damned good job of it if you ask me). This is also something of a disadvantage from the point of view of those who like to tinker and upgrade, of course, as Macs are generally not built with commodity parts and upgrades in mind. This doesn't actually bother me because my interest in simply fiddling with computers outside work hours is precisely zero. Once again, even that particular issue is a question of horses for courses.

I am quite frequently asked to make computer recommendations and people are generally surprised by my answers. For Joe User whose PC I will not be expected to "help out with", I will generally recommend an entry-level Dell off-the-shelf Windows XP box with support out the wazoo. If it breaks, Dell will come and fix it. It's cheap. It also does exactly what Joe User wants to do - surf the web and type the odd e-mail.

For serious gamers, a Windows PC is a no-brainer. Apple's hardware was never intended to be bleeding edge so a Mac user simply has to accept the fact that their hardware/software choice really wasn't ever designed to run the latest and greatest games. Sure, you can boot a Mac to Windows but your GPU is not really an upgradable item on a Mac and that's the puppy that will have to be almost constantly kept up to date if you're really passionate about playing the latest games.

When it comes down to it, I'll only recommend a Mac to those for whom "looks" or "cool" are an important consideration. That's not a put-down. After all, I'm one of those people. I don't just want something that does the job - I want something that does the job and looks beautiful while it's doing it. That applies from the physical appeal of the hardware itself right down to the elegance of the UI.

You'll notice that in the above long-winded ramblings, I didn't mention Linux at all. That's because it's another flamewar that can be had at another time.

Here endeth the lesson.

Denis_Jessop
22-12-2007, 04:43 PM
I agree with this approach in general. I think that some of the Mac v PC debate is carried on by mischievous Mac users like me who just like stirring the PC majority. But there is a serious side to it to me. I have been retired for over 10 years and didn't encounter computers until a few years before that when the Commonwealth Attorney-General's Department introduced them and chose Macs, unlike most others who used PCs. Thus I got to know the Mac and didn't encounter a PC in practice until I began using one for chess software, in particular Swiss Perfect, that won't run on a Mac. (Indeed I began with Virtual PC running Windows 98). But I later bought a Windows laptop and ran XP, which is not a bad OS - it's almost Mac-like in some ways. Yet there are some aspects of even that OS, especially file and document management , that as a Mac user I find unduly fiddly and frustrating. Paradoxically, I have had a friend who has been using DOS and later Windows OSs for years who thinks that Swiss Perfect is not a good program because of the way it operates, that way being what I find most attractive about it. He doesn't yet seem to have become reconciled to drop-down menus So you can never please everyone.

DJ

Basil
22-12-2007, 07:11 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott
Eurotrash
Sleepless
Mephistopheles

Denis_Jessop
22-12-2007, 07:45 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott
Eurotrash
Sleepless
Mephistopheles

Good! that makes 7 Gentlemen and 4722 players.:hmm:

DJ

Basil
07-02-2008, 05:55 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott
Eurotrash
Sleepless
Mephistopheles
bgriffenchop

pax
20-02-2008, 12:45 PM
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd1112.gif

Basil
20-02-2008, 01:23 PM
Ummm ... that doesn't hurt, Jon. It's like when a three year old says "yer stoopid". :rolleyes:

Southpaw Jim
20-02-2008, 07:34 PM
All I can say is that there's a reason the world isn't run by engineers... :P

Sunshine
21-04-2008, 05:11 PM
The below survey results seem to match my own observations.

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16717/1103/


Taken from research conducted by Internet advertising research firm Mindset Media, Insanely Great Mac says that the research “found Mac users to be more liberal, less modest and more assured of their own superiority”.

Mac users “self centred, arrogant, conceited”. Out of the Mindset Media study of 7500 Mac and PC users, “Mac users do really think they are superior”. They think they are “self important, extraordinary and more intellectually curious”.

But The Street doesn’t stop there. Apparently Mac users “rack in the credit card bills buying at least 5 new pairs of sneakers in the past year”. Those surveyed with “open personality” said they were 60% more likely to buy a Mac than a PC.

It goes on. Mac users apparently “buy organic food regularly”, and are more likely to buy “teeth whitening products”. Like Steve Jobs, the video says, Mac users “feel they are perfectionists”.

In a stat that will make the music studios happy, Mac users “download more music - and pay for it too”, with “half of mac users downloaded paid for music, while only 16% of PC users did the same”.

Mac users are supposed to be “more liberal, socially and politically”, are “more likely to use laptops or notebooks”, may need to “pimp their rides as they are more likely to cruise in station wagons”, and Mac users are “green, worried about the environment and pay for more green tech”.

Basil
21-04-2008, 05:22 PM
As far as generalisations go, it ain't bad! Is there a survey on bland drones PC users?

Sunshine
21-04-2008, 06:16 PM
As far as generalisations go, it ain't bad! Is there a survey on bland drones PC users?

Is this what you are looking for ?

"Far fewer cohesive personality traits emerged among PC owners, likely because of the breadth of PC ownership. Given that 95% or so of all computer users own a PC, those users essentially are the general population. The one area where PC users did stand out as statistically different was in creativity -- low creativity, that is. Mindset Media found they tend to be realists who are emotionally steady and work well with what they're given"

Space_Dude
21-04-2008, 08:43 PM
Does laptop count as a pc:eh:

Basil
21-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Does laptop count as a pc:eh:
That depends on the operating system it is running. If your OS starts with the letters W.I.N. or M.I.C.R. or if you have nasty looking icons or if your system font is Arial ...

Then I have bad news for you. You have a PC.

Aaron Guthrie
22-04-2008, 12:44 AM
Apparently Mac users “rack in the credit card bills buying at least 5 new pairs of sneakers in the past year”.That is either a hell of a lot or not very many!

Rincewind
22-04-2008, 01:11 AM
That is either a hell of a lot or not very many!

Perhaps there is high percentage of Mac ownership amongst decapods. (At least that would explain why they are so crabby).

President of the Mac User's Group resting in his aquarium (sans shoes):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Spider_crab_at_the_Kaiyukan_in_Osaka%2C_Japan.JPG/800px-Spider_crab_at_the_Kaiyukan_in_Osaka%2C_Japan.JPG

Ian Murray
22-04-2008, 01:33 PM
Psystar's el cheapo Mac clone has been creating a stir in the US - see http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1703&tag=nl.e550

Kevin Bonham
27-04-2008, 09:35 PM
President of the Mac User's Group resting in his aquarium (sans shoes):

Irrelevant to thread, but I've been to the aquarium in Osaka where that picture was taken and seen that tank full of crabs!

Rincewind
28-04-2008, 01:42 AM
Irrelevant to thread, but I've been to the aquarium in Osaka where that picture was taken and seen that tank full of crabs!

Spider Crabs are impressive crustaceans.

Axiom
05-05-2008, 11:34 PM
Spider Crabs are impressive crustaceans.
seeing as rw has killed this thread with the above comment ,
i propose this thread be transmogrified into a thread devoted to the chess career of Macavity.

Basil
06-05-2008, 04:35 PM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/smilies/threadjacked.gif

Denis_Jessop
06-05-2008, 09:02 PM
Or it could be transmogrified to a thread devoted to Mac users who are also Arsenal supporters - a small but happy band of warriors. Who wants silverware when you have a Mac? :D

DJ

ER
07-05-2008, 02:57 PM
I am in love with a mini mac!
Cheers and good luck!

Garvinator
07-05-2008, 04:00 PM
I am in love with a mini mac!
Cheers and good luck!
Thought you had made a lifestyle change to assist with your health ;)

sleepless
12-06-2008, 10:28 PM
I don't know how I ever did without my MacBook Pro. I boot into the 'dark side' for Fritz with Hiarcs 12, ChessBase etc, and if I need I can pull pgns through to another database on Mac OS where I prefer to work.

Basil
12-06-2008, 10:44 PM
I don't know how I ever did without my MacBook Pro.
Oh Jerry! Ja ja!

Southpaw Jim
14-06-2008, 09:07 PM
I don't know how I ever did without my MacBook Pro. I boot into the 'dark side' for Fritz with Hiarcs 12, ChessBase etc, and if I need I can pull pgns through to another database on Mac OS where I prefer to work.
What do you use in OSX?

arosar
17-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Apple store about to open in Sydney. Avance pics and details here (http://mactalk.com.au/).

AR

Denis_Jessop
18-06-2008, 12:00 PM
What do you use in OSX?

You can read pgns on the Mac using either Sigma Chess (for which you can now get Hiarcs 12) or Vektor 3 which is the easier to use if you just want to read a pgn and play through the game. There may be other programs to read pgns on the Mac (I don't know) but two is enough when they work well.

DJ

Desmond
26-09-2008, 01:04 PM
"...time-lapse video showing how he built his 2,558-pieces Lego Mac Pro, which he dubs Bricked Mac."

Video (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/09/the_bricked_mac_timelapse_video-2.html#more)

Basil
02-10-2008, 12:13 AM
Thanks. I reckon that's worth a watch for anyone.

Desmond
14-11-2008, 01:27 PM
A look towards the Apple of 1997, for them the eyes of 1987. (http://www.paleofuture.com/2008/07/apple-computer-in-1997-1987.html)

Igor_Goldenberg
14-11-2008, 02:41 PM
MAC is wonderful and brilliant operating system.

Desmond
18-11-2008, 12:04 PM
Apple Apples are not from Apple (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/11/apple_apples_are_not_from_apple-2.html)

Miranda
18-11-2008, 01:22 PM
@ Boris: ROFL!

When I first saw the picture I just thought "haha pretty good photoshop"... but that's pretty awesome

Denis_Jessop
19-11-2008, 07:07 PM
I see that Mac is on a roll with the iPhone which is set to become the world's second largest such doover after Nokia, so recent reports suggest.

DJ

Ian Murray
21-11-2008, 09:44 AM
"I really don’t want to use Windows anymore" - ZDNet
http://education.zdnet.com/?p=1965&tag=nl.e589

Miranda
21-11-2008, 01:16 PM
I have Windows XP from 2002... it's awful. I get a new laptop [and new operating system!] during December, though :)

Last night, I was in the middle of lots of important things, when my computer suddenly froze up. I was listening to "Don't stop me now" from Queen... so it kept repeating "Stop stop stop stop stop.."

After 5 minutes, I just rebooted it. Stupid old systems.

I would use a mac, but a) I can't stand them and b) It's a school laptop

Ian Murray
21-11-2008, 01:30 PM
I have Windows XP from 2002... it's awful. .. It's a school laptop
So presumably without Service Packs 1,2 and 3?

Miranda
21-11-2008, 01:38 PM
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Version 2002
Service pack 2

992MB of RAM

Igor_Goldenberg
21-11-2008, 02:30 PM
I would use a mac, but a) I can't stand them and

Gunner, she didn't really mean it! Or she meant it as a praise!

Miranda
21-11-2008, 03:00 PM
Gunner, she didn't really mean it! Or she meant it as a praise!

Gunner, I meant it.

I can't stand Macs

But I'm in Melbourne, so you can't seek revenge :)

Basil
21-11-2008, 08:26 PM
Gunner, I meant it. I can't stand Macs

What in particular don't you like? Perhaps your top 3 gripes.

Miranda
21-11-2008, 09:04 PM
Hm OK:

1. Nothing is compatible with them
2. They're so.. makes you feel like you're wrapped up in cotton wool
3. You can transfer word documents and things from Microsoft - mac, but not from mac - microsoft

Bill Gletsos
21-11-2008, 09:45 PM
Hm OK:

1. Nothing is compatible with themIncorrect. Some things are not compatible. However those items can usually be run under either VMware, Parallels or VirtualBox.

2. They're so.. makes you feel like you're wrapped up in cotton woolYou can run pure unix commands if you are sufficiently skilled. In fact they allow you to be as competent as your skills allow.
I know many experienced and highly skilled Unix System admins who use them.

3. You can transfer word documents and things from Microsoft - mac, but not from mac - microsoftIncorrect. I regularly move Microsoft documents (word, excel) between the PC and Mac and the Mac and the PC.

Denis_Jessop
21-11-2008, 09:49 PM
Hm OK:

1. Nothing is compatible with them
2. They're so.. makes you feel like you're wrapped up in cotton wool
3. You can transfer word documents and things from Microsoft - mac, but not from mac - microsoft

Your points are not wholly accurate.

Point 1 is very general and I don't know what you mean by it - see comment on point 3. Please be more specific. As Lily Tomlin said: "When I was young I always wanted to be somebody. Now I wish I'd been more specific."

Point 2 is a bit too girlie for an old man like me to understand.

Point 3 is just wrong. There are several word processors and office suites in which you can save documents, spread sheets and presentations that are easily read by MS Windows. For example there are MS Office 2008 for the Mac, Open Office and Neo Office the last two being free. If you want to be way out you can even use Schreiben word processor written by a German Michael Gobel and save docs in Word format and it costs almost nothing. Or you can use the Israeli wp program Mellel and export documents in Word format.

It's only people who haven't used Macs who now subscribe to the incompatability theory.

Moreover, unless you are a FIDE titled player there is Sigma Chess plus Hiarcs to keep you amused also with database facilities, among other chess programs. And if you want to run Windows programs there is Boot Camp which will run Windows native on a separate HDD partition.

DJ

Garvinator
21-11-2008, 10:14 PM
Point 2 is a bit too girlie for an old man like me to understand.
Wrapped up in cotton wool- too protected. Another term would be koala- protected species.

Garvinator
21-11-2008, 10:15 PM
Gunner, I meant it.

I can't stand Macs

But I'm in Melbourne, so you can't seek revenge :)
That has not stopped Gunner before :P

Basil
21-11-2008, 10:18 PM
1. Nothing is compatible with them
2. They're so.. makes you feel like you're wrapped up in cotton wool
3. You can transfer word documents and things from Microsoft - mac, but not from mac - microsoft
Not only ... ^^^ What they sed.

But also ...

1. Nothing is compatible with them
You mean
software written for PCs doesn't run on Mac
just like
software written for mac doesn't run on PCs :wall:

except even that isn't correct these days.


2. They're so.. makes you feel like you're wrapped up in cotton wool
Do you mean (as your term is commonly used) that you enjoy the coalface? You like to manually turn things (such virus and permissions) commands on and off and get your hands in the body of the system as opposed to having these things run seemlessly in the background? Do you mean you enjoy having a busted, corrupted, buggy computer that actually requires unlugging it and taking it places and need stuff doing as opposed to one that doesn't ummm ... never mind.


You can transfer word documents and things from Microsoft - mac, but not from mac - microsoft
Ummm. Wrong.

Do you still detest macs?

Miranda
22-11-2008, 01:02 AM
I used macs for 3 years. No matter what the IT guys did to my laptop or the mac computer, I couldn't transfer documents back and forth between macs and windows.

No good software is written for macs!

And no, I don't want the computer deciding what to run and what not to run. I decide it so I know what my computer's doing, rather than suddenly waking up one morning to find all my files erased :)

Denis_Jessop
22-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Wrapped up in cotton wool- too protected. Another term would be koala- protected species.

I got that far but I still don't know what it means in relation to a Mac as opposed to Windows OS.

In that regard I find that they are about the same though Windows is much messier to use regarding document management and in other ways. Over the years Windows has become much more like the Mac OS at the developers gradually try to get their act together. Vista seems to be seen as a mistake and is no better than XP which is a pretty straight forward program.

But I see that Miranda has been having trouble with XP as well as with Macs in the past so perhaps she has computerosis and needs treatment. Her local GP can fix it - mine uses Macs :D

DJ

Capablanca-Fan
22-11-2008, 05:18 PM
Would Miranda even be old enough to remember the standard DOS prompt? :hmm:

Rincewind
22-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Would Miranda even be old enough to remember the standard DOS prompt? :hmm:

If you just mean the command prompt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMMAND.COM) then it has not been antiquated so it isn't just fossils like us who would remember it.

Mephistopheles
01-12-2008, 12:27 PM
I used macs for 3 years. No matter what the IT guys did to my laptop or the mac computer, I couldn't transfer documents back and forth between macs and windows.
Sounds like the problem is with the IT guys rather than the Mac. File sharing between Windows and MacOS has been more or less perfect since around 1997 or even before. Macs have been able to natively access Windows network shares since 2000 or so.


No good software is written for macs!
That's a bit vague. What do you regard as "good software"? What do you do such that there is no good Mac software to do it with? If the answer is "play games" then the entire argument is over - if you're going to play PC games then you should be buying/using a commodity PC running Windows.


And no, I don't want the computer deciding what to run and what not to run. I decide it so I know what my computer's doing, rather than suddenly waking up one morning to find all my files erased :)
If you're currently using Windows, I'd be prepared to bet parts of my anatomy I'd rather keep that you have no idea about the programs windows decides to run with or without your permission. Modern operating systems are incredibly complex beasties and it is inevitable that stuff will be going on of which you are unaware and (very often) that you don't understand.

Ironically, your complaint about "cotton wool" or similar from earlier in the thread is completely at odds with reality. Windows hides most of the ugly from the user and it is difficult to get close to the inner workings of the system, even if they open a command prompt window. A Mac is a Unix system (a real Unix[R] system and not a toy for students, tinkerers and hobbyists such as GNU/Linux) and, as a result, the user can get their hands incredibly dirty in terms of fooling around with the innards of the OS.

Desmond
01-12-2008, 12:36 PM
You're joking about Linux, right?

Igor_Goldenberg
01-12-2008, 02:09 PM
You're joking about Linux, right?
Someone overstepped the line. Boris would kill for Linux:lol: :lol:

Mephistopheles
01-12-2008, 02:10 PM
You're joking about Linux, right?
I never joke about GNU/Linux. I am a Unix systems administrator by profession and have been working in the field for more than ten years. Over that time, I have consistently found that GNU/Linux systems are not quite ready for prime time in the data centre (no matter how often people shoehorn them into high end server roles), especially when compared with robust Unix systems such as Solaris or AIX. As more and more vendors take on GNU/Linux as a mainstream OS offering, things will continue to improve but it will be a long time before it can offer the stability, scalability, support and peace of mind that a Unix[R] system can.

As a desktop choice for Joe Public, GNU/Linux is risible - a toy for students, tinkerers and hobbyists.

Desmond
01-12-2008, 02:37 PM
I never joke about GNU/Linux. I am a Unix systems administrator by profession and have been working in the field for more than ten years. Over that time, I have consistently found that GNU/Linux systems are not quite ready for prime time in the data centre (no matter how often people shoehorn them into high end server roles), especially when compared with robust Unix systems such as Solaris or AIX. As more and more vendors take on GNU/Linux as a mainstream OS offering, things will continue to improve but it will be a long time before it can offer the stability, scalability, support and peace of mind that a Unix[R] system can.Well the Unix/Linux debate for servers is probably just as religious as the Mac/PC for home users. Hardly suprising that with 10 years experience in one you hold the other in comtempt. RedHat and SUSE, to name but two, are certainly very robust, reliable distributions.

Igor_Goldenberg
01-12-2008, 03:04 PM
Well the Unix/Linux debate for servers is probably just as religious as the Mac/PC for home users. Hardly suprising that with 10 years experience in one you hold the other in comtempt. RedHat and SUSE, to name but two, are certainly very robust, reliable distributions.
Novell OES is based on SUSE, and runs reliably.

Mephistopheles
01-12-2008, 03:22 PM
Well the Unix/Linux debate for servers is probably just as religious as the Mac/PC for home users.
I am yet to work out why that particular debate remains religious. I remember being a Mac user in the dark days of '97 when the possibility that Apply might cease to exist was very real. Advocacy was a requirement.

These days, MacOS has a niche market and a particular demographic. There is only the smallest difference between MacOS and Windows in terms of usability (unless you put Vista into the equation which would be unfair to Microsoft) and I am happy with either system, despite preferring to use a Mac.

I doubt that GNU/Linux vs Unix[R] is much of a debate at all compared with the 14-year-old 1337 f@|\|b0yZ passionately debating, say, Ubuntu versus Slackware or Gentoo.


Hardly suprising that with 10 years experience in one you hold the other in comtempt. RedHat and SUSE, to name but two, are certainly very robust, reliable distributions.
I also have around 6 years experience administering GNU/Linux systems and hold an RHCE (RHEL 4) as well. Redhat, at least, cannot hold a candle to a Unix[R] operating system in the data centre and I suspect that SUSE is even less capable than RHEL.

GNU/Linux will make it in the data centre in the medium to long term and Unix[R] systems will eventually go the way of the dinosaur. As someone who has been using Unix systems since '89 or so, that saddens me deeply but it is one of those cold, hard realities. Unix systems have greater capexes associated with them than deployments of GNU/Linux on commodity hardware and management will pick "cheap, soon" from the choice "good, cheap, soon - pick any two". :(

Mephistopheles
01-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Novell OES is based on SUSE, and runs reliably.
You haven't seen reliability until you've seen an OpenVMS or Solaris system with 10+ years of uptime.

Desmond
01-12-2008, 03:35 PM
... management will pick "cheap, soon" from the choice "good, cheap, soon - pick any two". :(Aint that the truth. That is why Dell is enheriting the earth.

Regarding the rest you are clearly more experienced than me, but I would just note that they wouldn't be making main frames geared towards Linux if it weren't pretty reliable. You don't sink that sort of money into hardware reliability if you have to restart the server every 5 minutes due to software issues.

Mephistopheles
01-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Regarding the rest you are clearly more experienced than me, but I would just note that they wouldn't be making main frames geared towards Linux if it weren't pretty reliable. You don't sink that sort of money into hardware reliability if you have to restart the server every 5 minutes due to software issues.
If you read what I've written in this thread, you will note that I acknowledge the ascendancy of GNU/Linux. The largest shared memory computer in Australia (with 1Tb of RAM) is an SGI Altix running SUSE. SGI long ago abandoned Irix but, then again, it was a very average Unix indeed.

Igor_Goldenberg
01-12-2008, 04:01 PM
You haven't seen reliability until you've seen an OpenVMS or Solaris system with 10+ years of uptime.
For starters, I don't need 10+ years of uptime (hardware would be too expensive). For the last two years I hadn't have software-related server downtime, which means Novell OES (and SUSE for that matter) passed the test.
Oh, and server administration does not take more then few minutes per month, so I don't have to hire a specialist.

Desmond
01-12-2008, 04:17 PM
If you read what I've written in this thread, you will note that I acknowledge the ascendancy of GNU/Linux. The largest shared memory computer in Australia (with 1Tb of RAM) is an SGI Altix running SUSE. SGI long ago abandoned Irix but, then again, it was a very average Unix indeed.Well it sounded to me more like you were saying it will be there one day but it is not yet. That is not the case.

Mephistopheles
01-12-2008, 04:41 PM
Well it sounded to me more like you were saying it will be there one day but it is not yet. That is not the case.
I don't think that it is up to the standards of a robust Unix system. It will probably get there and quite soon but it simply isn't there yet. Certainly GNU/Linux running on commodity hardware (as opposed to carefully tailored distributions run on proprietary hardware by IBM, SGI and the like) is close to a joke compared with a Unix system in the enterprise space.

Desmond
01-12-2008, 04:51 PM
I don't think that it is up to the standards of a robust Unix system. It will probably get there and quite soon but it simply isn't there yet. Certainly GNU/Linux running on commodity hardware (as opposed to carefully tailored distributions run on proprietary hardware by IBM, SGI and the like) is close to a joke compared with a Unix system in the enterprise space.OK. Interesting. Thanks.

Basil
27-01-2009, 12:43 PM
Windows XP operating System-

I have managed to delete all the power management options and so now have no options for stopping my laptop screen turning itself off after fifteen minutes of inactivity.

Does anyone has any workarounds for this? I have tried google searches with no luck.



GG, do you mean that you have deleted the Control Panel applet? IIRC, these are .CPL files, in either \WINDOWS, \WINDOWS\SYSTEM or maybe \WINDOWS\SYSTEM32.

Were you deleting files manually off the PC, or doing something else?


I was just wondering how you managed to delete those files... I usually go by the rule "If it's a hidden file, don't touch it (unless you know what you're doing!)"



Nope to both-

Go to desktop:

1) right click
2) properties
3) screen saver
4) monitor power- power
5) then it will show power schemes and a whole list of power saving options and times.

Over a number of weeks I deleted quite a few of the different options, wanting to leave only ALWAYS ON, so basically the screen did not turn go into stand by mode after a few minutes of non operation. One day I found that all the options had been deleted and now I can not find a way to add some options.

So I am just left with the factory default and thought some others on here would be aware of the features I am talking about.


Have you tried looking for software/help/settings from your laptop manufacturer?

On a mac, there is a cute 'button/ icon/ interface for dummies' for this. Andrew knows where it is. Anthony could use it :P

Carry on!

Desmond
27-01-2009, 02:11 PM
And what do you do if that is deleted?

Basil
27-01-2009, 02:30 PM
And what do you do if that is deleted?
:lol: :eek: :doh:
-- Mac users aren't in the habit of deleting software (requires back-end access)
-- There is no/ little need for it (on account software a) working and b) there for a reason)
-- Should the need arise, system re-installs are an obvious solution

But you knew all that anyway! Are sure you aren't a closet mac-ite?! ;)

Desmond
27-01-2009, 03:10 PM
:lol: :eek: :doh:
-- Mac users aren't in the habit of deleting software (requires back-end access)
-- There is no/ little need for it (on account software a) working and b) there for a reason)
-- Should the need arise, system re-installs are an obvious solutionYep all above applies to Garvin's machine too. Bit hard to prevent those PEBKAC errors though.

Basil
27-01-2009, 03:30 PM
Yep all above applies to Garvin's machine too. Bit hard to prevent those PEBKAC errors though.
PEBKAC! Just looked this up - funny! Never heard of it. Then again I use a mac ;)

Capablanca-Fan
07-02-2009, 01:42 PM
See my post about the highly efficient early-90s Geoworks GUI, publisher and word processor (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=229186&postcount=3). Memories of that, and the "might have beens" of much faster performance if that had survived, make me more sympathetic to Gunner's case against Microsoft.

Desmond
07-02-2009, 02:00 PM
Wouldn't shed too many tears for them. They probably got bought out and the owners made quite rich.

Basil
07-02-2009, 02:29 PM
See my post about the highly efficient early-90s Geoworks GUI, publisher and word processor (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=229186&postcount=3). Memories of that, and the "might have beens" of much faster performance if that had survived, make me more sympathetic to Gunner's case against Microsoft.
And I nearly added to that post (in that thread) "marketing clout or illegal market controls that are difficult to prove".


Wouldn't shed too many tears for them. They probably got bought out and the owners made quite rich.
Probably? Probably? What about if they were simply suffocated? Regardless, the tears are for the consumer and the industry, both of whom got screwed.

The only saving grace is that the consumer got what he voted for (within his capacity to vote, which is highly suspect).

Desmond
07-02-2009, 02:45 PM
Well does anyone actually know what happened to that company? If they did indeed have ahead of its time tech, that later appeared in another vendor's product, it would suggest to me that they got assimilated.

Capablanca-Fan
07-02-2009, 04:17 PM
Well does anyone actually know what happened to that company?
I linked to an interview with a former CTO (http://www.osnews.com/story/1864)who gave his reasons. Here is another article (http://www.groupsrv.com/computers/about419543.html), involving the discussions with IBM. BTW, GEOS = Graphic Environment Operating System.


If they did indeed have ahead of its time tech, that later appeared in another vendor's product, it would suggest to me that they got assimilated.
No. They certainly made some bad marketing decisions, e.g. not having a spreadsheet. But Windows 95 was not as good a GUI as Geoworks was in 1990.

I don't shed tears for Geoworks, but for the consumer who now has much more bloated software. So for many users who just want a decent wordprocessor and publisher, they are probably not working faster on their modern high-speed and high-memory computers than they did with Geoworks on their 286s with 512Kb RAM. One article (http://www.falvotech.com/blog/index.php?/archives/464-Is-Hardware-Really-Cheaper-Than-Humans.html)states:


Compare GeoWrite/64 against Microsoft Word on Windows XP, normalize your measurements to account for clock speed, and you'll find GeoWrite utterly demolishes Word in performance. Claiming that GeoWrite lacks OLE proves to be a red-herring too, since that technology neither existed in 1987, nor does it impose a factor of 1000 sluggishness (remember, only a factor of two performance hit when invoking a virtual method!). Just to add an interesting footnote, GeoWrite for PC/GEOS did have this technology (and was pervasive throughout the whole OS too, making it nearly automatic to support for any application!) back when Windows was still wearing diapers, and it still ran very nearly instantaneously on an 8MHz 80286 machine with only 4MB of RAM. Remember that PC/GEOS ran entirely in real-mode, using the remaining 3MB of extended memory as a glorified RAM-disk.

Rincewind
30-03-2009, 12:55 PM
Has anyone pointed out the following song by Soko?

I will never love you more

I will never love you more than the drummer of flaming lips
I will never love you more than Woody Allen movies
I will never love you more than the White album of the Beatles
I will never love you more than God only knows

I will never love you more than DVD's night with my girlfriend
And we talk about stupid things like feelings and men
I will never love you more than my boyfriend when I was 14
Even if he's now an asshole, I will never love you more

And you say, you love me more than everything
And compared to me everything is nothing...

I will never love you more than meeting Paul McCartney
And we asked him to play a song on my Ukulele
I will never love you more than Scandinavian Tour
Which was more than paradise, I wish you remember it too

I will never love you more than dancing to Phil Spektor
I will never love you more than my Casiotone keyboard.
I will never love you more than Daniel Johnston himself
For me he's more than God, I will never love you more

And you say, you love me more than everything
And compared to me everything is nothing

Ohh this is sweet, I just wonder what it means

You say you love me more, than all the girls you have had before
Even more than music, even more than yourself
Even more than everything, but it's just a lie
So I will never love you more, than anything

I will never love you more than singing in the shower
I will never love you more than my Mac computer
I will never love you more than having a daughter
I will never love you more than peanut butter

I will never love you more than kisses all day
I will never love you more than cuddles all night
I will never love you more than kissing girls lips when they're really pretty

I will never love you more
I will never love you more

Basil
30-03-2009, 02:12 PM
...
I will never love you more than my Mac computer ...
Thanks RW.

I wonder how many lyrics include odes top Windows bwa ha ha ha ...

Or if Seinfeld was approached to have a strategically placed Pentium at the back of his living room.

eclectic
30-03-2009, 02:20 PM
I wonder how many lyrics include odes top [sic] Windows bwa ha ha ha ...

Van Morrison

that's my life ... cleaning* windows

:owned:

* read: debugging, repairing etc ;)

Basil
30-03-2009, 03:07 PM
Van Morrison

that's my life ... cleaning* windows

:owned:

* read: debugging, repairing etc ;)
Paying $33.78 HCDs right there, folks!

Hobbes
30-03-2009, 03:27 PM
to post this link (http://www.groin.com/2009/02/correct-use-of-a-macintosh/)?

:whistle:

Desmond
30-03-2009, 03:36 PM
That's beautiful

Basil
30-03-2009, 03:54 PM
That's beautiful
Also a very very very poor copy of an original satire the other way around - sheez what a shock - PC luvers as copy-prone as their appalling software ;)

Carry on!

Here's a more recent version of the original Windows toilet roll dispenser art (which I think might date back about a decade).
http://www.therawfeed.com/2008/03/found-photo-windows-vista-toilet-paper.html

Basil
30-04-2009, 06:42 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard (Gunner)
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott (Heavyknight)
Southpaw Jim
Sleepless
Mephistopheles
bgriffenchop
Saragossa

Basil
01-05-2009, 06:26 PM
Id_kGL3M5Cg

Basil
01-05-2009, 06:28 PM
Honour Board

Duggan, Howard (Gunner)
Gletsos, William
Jessop, Denis
Renzies, Elliott (Heavyknight)
Southpaw Jim
Sleepless
Mephistopheles
bgriffenchop
Saragossa
PHAT

Rincewind
01-05-2009, 08:41 PM
No credits for owning an iPod?

Basil
01-05-2009, 09:14 PM
No credits for owning an iPod?
an iPod is not a mac, but there is a huge amount of kudos attached if that helps!

Miranda
02-05-2009, 02:45 PM
http://www.macuser.com/images/mac-guys.jpg
If both these people applied for a job at your business, which one would you choose?




Exactly.

Basil
02-05-2009, 03:03 PM
http://www.macuser.com/images/mac-guys.jpg
If both these people applied for a job at your business, which one would you choose?
I employ 12 of the guy on the right.

I produce two publications* on macs (accounts, word processing, proofing, production, spreadsheets, e-mail, database, web). People dribble at the prospect of working at our place**. I haven't owned a PC for 20 years.

Why do you ask?

* Used to be three. In danger of becoming 8 this year.
** Might be a slight exaggeration.
NB I can be the guy on the right when I'm in court, except
a) I look extremely hot unlike the bloke on the left ;)), and
b) That's primarily because I think people like you expect me too

Incidentally Miranda, a number of the people that work with me (read 90+%) come as PC drones, perhaps like yourself! They leave as mac converts. What's that all about?

Rincewind
02-05-2009, 03:14 PM
Incidentally Miranda, a number of the people that work with me (read 90+%) come as PC drones, perhaps like yourself! They leave as mac converts. What's that all about?

Ascertainment bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascertainment_bias)

Denis_Jessop
02-05-2009, 03:21 PM
http://www.macuser.com/images/mac-guys.jpg
If both these people applied for a job at your business, which one would you choose?




Exactly.

I would not employ the guy on the left-hand side - he looks like a dickhead and has a very poor tailor (his trousers are far too long). The guy on the right hand side at least looks fairly intelligent and is wearing the Steve Jobs gear now trendy among certain top executives. By the way, what is the business in question? :)

DJ

Basil
02-05-2009, 03:29 PM
I would not employ the guy on the left-hand side - he looks like a dickhead and has a very poor tailor ...
Magnificent! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Ascertainment bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascertainment_bias)
Perhaps you're right. But not nec. We do have some fairly dry and stodgy types at our place (I weed out the starstruck and the creatives applying for non-creative roles at interview stage) - who do come from entrenched PC backgrounds (they're not all flips - well they are in the editorial department ;))

Miranda
02-05-2009, 09:39 PM
Incidentally Miranda, a number of the people that work with me (read 90+%) come as PC drones, perhaps like yourself! They leave as mac converts. What's that all about?
Brainwashing.

Miranda
02-05-2009, 09:39 PM
And let's assume the business is.. a bank. Serious business.

Basil
02-05-2009, 09:40 PM
Brainwashing.
Nope. The peeps I work with aren't the brain-washee types.

Miranda
02-05-2009, 09:41 PM
Nope. The peeps I work with aren't the brain-washee types.
Well, not until they leave. After they've left it becomes apparent that your Mac propaganda has influenced to think that Macs are better... a laughable concept! :lol: