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JGB
12-05-2004, 10:34 PM
Captured on Video, The beheading of a US citizen by five terrorists?
Can the situation in the Middle East get any worse? Of course it can and it will.

There are no demands, no requests, and absolutely no fear, the terrorists just want a complete end of the whole western democratic world!

What can be done?

Gandalf
12-05-2004, 11:06 PM
Well, we could go in and kill them all.

Or we could pull out completely, and let them kill themselves.

Either way, no justice is done.

JGB
13-05-2004, 12:13 AM
Well, we could go in and kill them all.

Or we could pull out completely, and let them kill themselves.

Either way, no justice is done.

You don't think they would come after 'us', regardless if where in Iraq or not?. :hmm:

Its gone way beyond Iraq now.

paulb
17-05-2004, 07:57 PM
What a load of crap.

Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden's terrorism. It also had no weapons of mass destruction. And Saddam Hussein was such an evil dictator, so loathed, that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were prepared to die to keep the Americans out.

The invasion of Iraq is not an attempt to spread democracy, eradicate WMDs or fight terrorism. It's an attempt to secure cheap oil for the US at the cost of tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands) of innocent Arab lives. Face it, you've been duped. Even americans are waking up to this now.

The beheading wasn't nice, but neither is the senseless killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis by US troops, all fighting not for democracy but for a pro-US government that gives the US nice cheap oil.

That's what happens when you invade someone else's country and crap all over them: they fight back.

We're the bad guys. Try at least entertaining the possibility and see where it leads you.

Alan Shore
17-05-2004, 08:05 PM
What a load of crap.

Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden's terrorism. It also had no weapons of mass destruction. And Saddam Hussein was such an evil dictator, so loathed, that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were prepared to die to keep the Americans out.

The invasion of Iraq is not an attempt to spread democracy, eradicate WMDs or fight terrorism. It's an attempt to secure cheap oil for the US at the cost of tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands) of innocent Arab lives. Face it, you've been duped. Even americans are waking up to this now.

The beheading wasn't nice, but neither is the senseless killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis by US troops, all fighting not for democracy but for a pro-US government that gives the US nice cheap oil.

That's what happens when you invade someone else's country and crap all over them: they fight back.

We're the bad guys. Try at least entertaining the possibility and see where it leads you.

Well said Paul :clap: In particular it's astonishing the cloud of ignorance has taken so long to dissipate.

eclectic
18-05-2004, 12:59 AM
Well said Paul :clap: In particular it's astonishing the cloud of ignorance has taken so long to dissipate.
I saw the front pages of the herald sun today about the 100 odd Australian merceneries going to Iraq and how they discretely put rectangles to hide the eyes which were not covered by sunglasses.

And I thinks to meself

(greetings arosar)

As if covering just the eyes hides the identity ...

Why don't the photo retouche artists remove the whole head to make sure their identity is really hidden ...

and to give them a BIG hint as to what may await them?

eclectic

weadley
19-05-2004, 05:16 AM
This thread is craperiffic!

Blame evil America first!

This war is what the world gets when 19 idiot arabs load up in planes and attack America.

We got plenty of cheap oil allready here in the good ol USA and dont need Iraq's
oil. What we need is to show that part of the world that its time to join up with the modern fhuckin world or be owned.

Simple Aint it?

PHAT
19-05-2004, 05:40 AM
Weadley, maaaaaaaaaaate. You are in for some rough handling as you get educated here about the USA and the position it has in the world. :lol:

Alan Shore
19-05-2004, 10:23 PM
Weadley, maaaaaaaaaaate. You are in for some rough handling as you get educated here about the USA and the position it has in the world. :lol:

He's an American, so I doubt that will happen any time soon :whistle:

Cat
19-05-2004, 11:03 PM
The pictures of the naked Iraqis reminded me of scenes from Belsen and Auschwitz. I did chastize Paul last year for using comparisons with Nazi Germany, but I guess I was wrong.

weadley
20-05-2004, 01:33 AM
I for one wont bash your country.
I have the greatest of respect for the Aussies and thier tough stance.
However you guys here are another thing.
I guess every country has there ostriches.
Some just refuse to see the bad turn that the world has taken.
Its time to fix it.

Kevin Bonham
20-05-2004, 01:36 AM
The pictures of the naked Iraqis reminded me of scenes from Belsen and Auschwitz. I did chastize Paul last year for using comparisons with Nazi Germany, but I guess I was wrong.

There is an ever so slight difference in scale.

weadley
20-05-2004, 01:39 AM
And boo phuckin hoo for the naked prisoners.
Sadam has spoken out and condemened it as the work of amatuers, stating that the piles of naked men clearly were not dead.

You might not realize it but most college kids go through worse stuff then that just to get accepted into a fraternity!

And you just belittled the deaths of millions. Dave! Way to phuckin go!
I could only imagine though what your opinions would be if it was 19 Saudis that flew planes into a packed Sydney Opera House.

The face of our planet changed on 9/11.

Kevin Bonham
20-05-2004, 01:42 AM
I have the greatest of respect for the Aussies and thier tough stance.

Our tough stance???

It wasn't ours and it wasn't tough. It was our PM following your President without question because Australia's too scared to attempt an independent foreign policy.

Polls have generally shown a small majority of Australians opposed to the war.


I guess every country has there ostriches.
Some just refuse to see the bad turn that the world has taken.
Its time to fix it.

And killing nearly 20000 people while turning Iraq from an awful but completely contained dictatorship into an unstable and resentful breeding ground for future terrorists where many more people will die solves this precisely how?

Kevin Bonham
20-05-2004, 01:45 AM
And boo phuckin hoo for the naked prisoners.
Sadam has spoken out and condemened it as the work of amatuers, stating that the piles of naked men clearly were not dead.

You might not realize it but most college kids go through worse stuff then that just to get accepted into a fraternity!

Um yeah ... who said that first ... it was Rush Limbaugh, was it not. You a fan?

That similar abuses occur in the frat system just proves that the frat system is immature, conformist and stupid. It's one of the things about USA culture I have never understood.

Alan Shore
20-05-2004, 02:10 AM
The pictures of the naked Iraqis reminded me of scenes from Belsen and Auschwitz. I did chastize Paul last year for using comparisons with Nazi Germany, but I guess I was wrong.

I don't think warrants a comparison at all, those who suffered in Nazi Germany were treated infinitely worse and it was done in an organised fashion involving massive numbers - not just dumb Yanks confirming Zimbardo's psychological prison experiment where human nature seems to crumble when they have direct control over lives of prisoners. Don't think I'm not strongly condemning what happened to the prisoners in Iraq but it's ridiculous to compare it with Auschwitz.

Alan Shore
20-05-2004, 02:21 AM
I for one wont bash your country.
I have the greatest of respect for the Aussies and thier tough stance.
However you guys here are another thing.
I guess every country has there ostriches.
Some just refuse to see the bad turn that the world has taken.
Its time to fix it.

I think Kevin's reply adequately quashes what you've said here - it was indeed the PM's stance and against the wishes of most Australians.


And boo phuckin hoo for the naked prisoners.
Sadam has spoken out and condemened it as the work of amatuers, stating that the piles of naked men clearly were not dead.

You might not realize it but most college kids go through worse stuff then that just to get accepted into a fraternity!

And you just belittled the deaths of millions. Dave! Way to phuckin go!
I could only imagine though what your opinions would be if it was 19 Saudis that flew planes into a packed Sydney Opera House.

The face of our planet changed on 9/11.

Firstly you make a superfluous comparison with Bin Laden and Iraq - for some reason you've followed Bush's brainwashing and successfuly blurred the distinction with his ridiculous 'axis of evil' comments.

You should be able to see this war was started for the wrong reasons, even if some believe it is 'liberating Iraq' it's not up to the US to just barge in and declare war, going over the head of the UN. Otherwise where will it end? What next, North Korea, Zimbabwe? Haven't Americans learned anything from Vietnam? If you want to fight terrorism, so be it, I applaud but chasing oil isn't winning you any friends.

As for this country, the national budget has stepped up grants to defence and intelligence, there is no delusion when it comes to national security.

As for the ridiculous stunts pulled for frat initiation we've seen reports of the consequences for such stupidity if one remembers that incident at girls hockey or whatever sport it was where people were formally charged. That behavious is atypical of a culture that breeds arrogance and there is little patience for it here.

weadley
20-05-2004, 02:29 AM
I hope you dont think I condone what those dumb kids did who were in charge at the prison. Them kids are going to get the shaft and good.

Now I am not 100% postitive but isnt the Arab who cut that mans head off in Iraq affiliated with Usama B Laden?

As I undertand it hes been in country for a few years. Even if he isn't I still dont think were over there for any other reason then to smack the world in the face and try to wake it up.

Sure all the free oil will be great , but teaching all the hippy countries how the world really works first is the best plan of action.



Salute!

Alan Shore
20-05-2004, 02:52 AM
Here you can see an article regarding Michael Moore's new documentary on the questionable actions of Bush.. and the US Government are trying to hush it up.. no surprises there.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8202



Sure all the free oil will be great , but teaching all the hippy countries how the world really works first is the best plan of action.

N...no.

Kevin Bonham
20-05-2004, 03:45 AM
Now I am not 100% postitive but isnt the Arab who cut that mans head off in Iraq affiliated with Usama B Laden?

Aparently so.


As I undertand it hes been in country for a few years.

Big woop. There are al Qaeda operatives in almost every significant country in the world. There are probably dozens of them within the US plotting their next big show right now. Of course, they are having a lot of fun in Iraq now that the place is divided, chaotic, jam-packed with juicy targets and full of people who are angry at an intruding army that 80% of the Iraqi people want gone. Practically the only thing that Iraqis in general agree on.


Even if he isn't I still dont think were over there for any other reason then to smack the world in the face and try to wake it up.

That is a remarkably stupid reason to kill tens of thousands of people and potentially start a massive civil war.


Sure all the free oil will be great , but teaching all the hippy countries how the world really works first is the best plan of action.

You guys should have learnt "how the world really works" in Vietnam. You can smash a regime but you cannot smash a people. You cannot go in and say "you guys will have a democratic government whether you like it or not" and expect that it's going to stick.

Kevin Bonham
20-05-2004, 03:53 AM
Here you can see an article regarding Michael Moore's new documentary on the questionable actions of Bush.. and the US Government are trying to hush it up.. no surprises there.

I look forward to seeing this film and following the debates about its accuracy or otherwise. You expect a bit of spin and propaganda with this guy, and the Republicans came out hard trying to shoot holes in Bowling for Columbine but Moore won most of those arguments as far as I could tell. This time his scope seems larger and the claims he is making are far more sensational. I hope that it will be factually robust and not just conspiracy-theory style stuff.

Cat
20-05-2004, 08:57 AM
I don't think warrants a comparison at all, those who suffered in Nazi Germany were treated infinitely worse and it was done in an organised fashion involving massive numbers - not just dumb Yanks confirming Zimbardo's psychological prison experiment where human nature seems to crumble when they have direct control over lives of prisoners. Don't think I'm not strongly condemning what happened to the prisoners in Iraq but it's ridiculous to compare it with Auschwitz.

Auschwitz maybe, but remember the Nazi's started interning political opponents in 1933, and in the early days the similarities are striking. The madness didn't set in until 1941.

shaun
20-05-2004, 10:46 AM
I don't think warrants a comparison at all, those who suffered in Nazi Germany were treated infinitely worse and it was done in an organised fashion involving massive numbers - not just dumb Yanks confirming Zimbardo's psychological prison experiment where human nature seems to crumble when they have direct control over lives of prisoners. Don't think I'm not strongly condemning what happened to the prisoners in Iraq but it's ridiculous to compare it with Auschwitz.

Speaking of psychological prison experiments ....
Generally German soldiers weren't punished for refusing to execute jews, gypsies etc. If they didn't want to do it they weren't made to. What is important to note is that they eventually began to participate anyway. Once they had been desensitised to what others were doing, they were able to justify it to themselves. The whole notion of their victims being "untermensch" (literally sub-human) came into play.
How this relates to Iraq is that the "untermensch" thinking is happening there, both within the US military, and amongst those who defend their actions. As Zimbardo himself said just the other day, it isn't a few bad apples in the barrell, it is the barrell itself that is to blame.
Given different circumstances Pat Tillman would have been the torturer, Lynndie England the propoganda heroine, and Jessica Lynch would be coming home from Afghanistan in a box.

paulb
20-05-2004, 12:32 PM
teaching all the hippy countries how the world really works first is the best plan of action.

I think most countries already know this: ie, if you have something the US wants, you'd better hand it over or you'll be shat upon.

paulb
20-05-2004, 12:48 PM
This thread is craperiffic!

Blame evil America first!

This war is what the world gets when 19 idiot arabs load up in planes and attack America.

We got plenty of cheap oil allready here in the good ol USA and dont need Iraq's
oil. What we need is to show that part of the world that its time to join up with the modern fhuckin world or be owned.

Simple Aint it?

Bin Laden killed about 3000 Americans. Not nice.

In response, the US has killed at least 15,000 Afghanis and at least 20,000 Iraqis (they're the military figures; the real figures will be much higher of course).

Even if some of the Afghani killing could be justified, the 20,000 Iraqis were simply a case of murder. It was well-known that Saddam had nothing to do with Bin Laden, and well-known (to germany, france, india, china, and the US State Department, and anyone with half a brain) that there were no WMDs. They wanted Iraq, so they used 9/11 as an excuse to invade a country and massacre thousands. That's murder, and there's blood on the US's hands. Simple, ain't it?

That's of course on top of the estimated 600,000 (yes, 600,000) killed in the first Gulf War, and on top of the hundreds of thousands estimated to have died through inadequate nutrition and inadequate medicine as a result of the Gulf-War-inspired sanctions. And you really wonder why they hate the US?

Then there's the matter of US sponsorship of undemocratic and unpopular regimes in the area: Saudi Arabia; Israel (nominally a democracy, but a dictatorship as far as the Palestinians are concerned); Iran under the Shah; and now Iraq under a puppet (though they've probably stuffed that up). Do a little research on the history of Iraq, my friend.

Simple ain't it?

PS. Keep it up, sport. All my leftie rhetoric ain't half as convincing as your stuff.

eclectic
20-05-2004, 03:13 PM
May I please have something clarified?

This weadley character?

It's not chesslover trying to reinvent himself, is it ?

:confused:

eclectic

paulb
20-05-2004, 04:40 PM
I hope that it will be factually robust and not just conspiracy-theory style stuff.

I believe the film's based on Dude, Where's my country book (not cmpletely sure) which I've partly read ... and that book is minutely documented, references galore. He does have some strange obsessions in that book, but they're more US-centric biases than wacky conspiracy stuff. Actually, to Australian eyes, he's fairly moderate in most of what he says ... much of what is lunacy to Americans is simply educated common sense to us, I suspect.

weadley
21-05-2004, 12:27 AM
Ooops my bad. I didnt mean to get you all to hate me! I guess I'm just kinda surprised that the tone in an Autralian forum isnt more ... well...Tough I guess is the word Im lookin for.

You guys make some great points. I could be completely in the wrong about the whole mess.

Did I accidently log onto a French Quilting Forum?:rolleyes:

weadley
21-05-2004, 12:30 AM
One quick question.

Do you guys all hate Americans and believe we're all stupid?

Garvinator
21-05-2004, 12:31 AM
One quick question.

Do you guys all hate Americans and believe we're all stupid?

not me, i dont hate the majority of americans who voted for al gore :owned: :whistle:

weadley
21-05-2004, 12:39 AM
Things would be alot easier if Al Gore had been elected.
Maybe, who know how nuts he would have gone or not gone after 9/11.

But then again when has doing what is right ever been the easier route?

Kevin Bonham
21-05-2004, 03:01 AM
One quick question.

Do you guys all hate Americans and believe we're all stupid?

I don't hate all Americans. I don't even hate very many Americans. I'm an equal opportunity hater and an increasingly lazy one too. There's probably some Americans among the handful of people I can still be bothered hating.

I don't believe Americans are any more or less stupid than anyone else.

I do believe American foreign policy is stupid.

As for toughness, well, we're tough enough to sit here in a small, potentially vulnerable nation and say that we don't think our supposed protectors are really up to scratch. Does that really sound wimpy to you. Why this idea that wanting to kill people makes you tough and not wanting to doesn't?

PHAT
21-05-2004, 06:51 AM
I have worked alongside many yanks and ex-yanks and worked in the US as well. I can honestly say I never knew a yank I didn't like. However, the sample is necessarily non-representitive due to circumstance. So, I feel deeply perplexed that these good people could come from a nation that is the most evil on the planet. The greatest terrorist act of the 20th century - Hiroshima. Most blatent theft - Middle East oil. Most massive non-renewable resources consumer, the USofA. The filthiest racists, hummm that would be ... America - the way blacks are still the ones doing the menial shit jobs. The executers of mentally ill criminals: GWB's Teeexaaas. The place that has the highest percapita income and cities with higher infant mortalty rates than Africa. Suffice to say, I HATE the USA.

antichrist
21-05-2004, 06:10 PM
I have had a US carpenter working for me for the last 4 weeks and his attitude is that the US have the right and might to kill whoever they want to in Iraq (and I would guess any other Arab country as well). He thinks that they should just kill anyone and everyone who gets in their way or use freedom and human rights in their own country. Use the biggest bombs (daisy-cutters etc) with no regard for consequences. Otherwise he is a nice person.

Lucena
23-05-2004, 11:56 AM
not me, i dont hate the majority of americans who voted for al gore :owned: :whistle:

nice one. Although I suspect the majority of Americans didn't vote at all :D .
They tell me the Radiohead album "Hail to the Thief" is named after what an anti-bush crowd shouted during his presidential victory campaign...

JGB
24-05-2004, 05:38 PM
Its interesting watching this debate pan out. Im having fun here... :clap: , by the way I never even mentioned Iraq in the question to the forum and its has easily taken the center stage!? May seem only natural that the topic turns directly into a slagging match about American foriegn policy intentions. :)

paulb
24-05-2004, 10:56 PM
Otherwise he is a nice person.

:)

paulb
24-05-2004, 11:04 PM
regarding the stupidity of Americans:

I do think Americans are unusually stupid about the world outside America ... their knowledge of foreign affairs is absolutely abysmal, and that goes all the way to the White House. I do think that most people in most western countries are much better informed than Americans are.

A couple of reasons for that: The US media focuses heavily on the states (partly because it tends to be biggest and richest and mostest etc); the fact it's an island; and it's education system which is very "patriotic" and internally focused.

Conversely, people in "smaller" countries tend to have a greater interest in the world outside anyway.

The US ignorance of world affairs, of course, would be unimportant except for the fact that US decisions tend to huge implications. If the US population were better informed, we might hope that electoral pressure would secure better decision-making by US government, so it's very important in that respect.

JGB
24-05-2004, 11:14 PM
A logical answer Paul, I agree. The sad thing i believe is that most Americans don't believe they have such a little understanding of external political and social affairs, or maybe its just that they don't want to believe that the really understand so little.

weadley
25-05-2004, 01:25 AM
Washer Women!

jay_vee
25-05-2004, 07:05 AM
The pictures of the naked Iraqis reminded me of scenes from Belsen and Auschwitz.

It's not just the pictures...
When the former POW camp Bergen-Belsen was "reorganized" in 1943 to become a concentration camp for jewish civilians it was officially declared a "temporary residential camp" (for jews supposedly meant to be exchanged for german POWs) instead of the originally intended designation "civilian internment camp". This was done to circumvent a clause from the geneva convention that stipulated that civilian prison camps needed to be accessible for visits by international commissions.

Sound vaguely familiar?

Gandalf
26-05-2004, 12:43 AM
That "Hail to the Thief" generated a brief smile of memory on my face - I remember the night I (and undoubtable most others here) stayed up to watch the reports on CNN etc. It was not only an insult but a crime against the American Constitution (which yes, I have actually studied), American Democracy and the People of not only America but the World. Those are capitalised to emphasise that they are no lower than the other things I mentioned, they are in fact of the greatest import.

The fact that a country can claim, without evidence, to have a real and present danger originating in a country on the other side of the planet is not only foolish, but totally absurd. The worst part is that this state not only could, but DID, get away with it. We (yes, all of us) went to war, and supposedly "won".

Where is this victory? I do not see peace, I do not see prosperity, I do not see life or hope. Thus far what has been achieved is even less than what the death and suffering that was expected. So much for collateral damage, we don't even have the oil they promised. At this point in time the whole meaning - the reasons (both true and disclosed, for they were definitely not the same thing) for going to war remain unachieved. Iraqis still live in destitution, even less "safe" than in Saddam's day and without their homes, their families, their food, their livelihood. They don't have their freedom, and we don't have our empire.

Where is the profit? If we have achieved victory for neither humanity nor the economy, surely we must have achieved SOMETHING? Alas, we have - we have achieved the work of evil. It is said that the Devil may work good to the greater ends of evil, and this is precisely what the removal of Saddam was. After all, this wasn't really an "invasion", it was merely a "regime change". Now that's not so bad at all, is it?