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samspade
07-05-2004, 11:04 PM
I played this game a couple of weeks ago against a higher rated player. I thought I played pretty well and I was nearly drawing but I lost :doh:. can anyone tell me what went wrong? I was white

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 {this looks like rubbish to me one of my mates says it's called the Pelican or something. Anyway I played Nf5 but I looked in my trusty purple buddy Nunn's Chess Openings and he says Nb5 is the best move} 5. Nf5 d5 6. Qxd5 Qxd5 7. exd5 Bxf5 8. dxc6 bxc6 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. cxd3 0-0-0 11. Ke2 Bc5 12. Nc3 Ne7 13. Be3 Bd4 14. Bxd4 exd4 15. Ne4 Rhe8 16. Kd2 Nd5 17. Rac1 Kb7 18. Rhe1 a5 19. Nc5+ Kc7 20. Rxe8 Rxe8 21. Re1 Re7 22. Rxe7 Nxe7 23. Ke2 Nd5 24. Ne4 f5 25. Ng5 Nf4+ 26. Kd2 h6 27. g3 hxg5 28. gxf4 gxf4 29. h4 {I thought now I can win his f4 pawn, but I didn't realise he could play f3}f3 30. Kc2 Kd6 31. Kb3 Ke5 32. Kc4 Kf4 33. Kxd4 Kg4 34. Kc5 Kxh4 35. Kxc6 g5 36. d4 g4 37. d5 g3 38. d6 gxf2 39. d7 f1=Q 40. d8=Q+ Kg3 41. Qg5+ Kh2 {we were getting into time trouble here}42. Qh4+ Kg2 43. Qg5+ Kh2 44. Qh4+ Kg2 45. Qg5+ Kf2 46. Qd2+ Qe2 47. Qd4+ Qe3 48. Qh4+ Ke2 49. Qh2+ f2 50. Qh5+ Qf3+ 51. Qxf3+ Kxf3 {and I resigned soon} 0-1

There must be a perpetual check in there somewhere!

PHAT
07-05-2004, 11:14 PM
...can anyone tell me what went wrong?

Yep, you played a higher rated player :lol:

samspade
07-05-2004, 11:19 PM
Yep, you played a higher rated player :lol:Thanks Matthew I knew I could count on you:rolleyes:

PHAT
07-05-2004, 11:32 PM
Thanks Matthew I knew I could count on you:rolleyes:

OK seriously. Hunt the K to h8 while making sure your Q is always able to get to either c1 and h6 fo a perpetual. If pawn f5-f6, at least you will pinch it and be even on material.

samspade
07-05-2004, 11:49 PM
OK seriously. Hunt the K to h8 while making sure your Q is always able to get to either c1 and h6 fo a perpetual. If pawn f5-f6, at least you will pinch it and be even on material.The problem is if I ever stop checking and take his pawn he can probably find some way of swapping queens, so I have to keep checking. But with everything I've tried it looks like he keeps on weaseling out of the checks :wall:

Rincewind
07-05-2004, 11:53 PM
It is called the Pelikan or the Sveshnikov and Nb5 is one of the most critical tests of the idea. However, don't play it without knowing the theory as there are long book lines you should be acquainted with first. You should find these in NCO. The first thing to know is that d6 is practically forced. Just about any other move allows Nd6 which if allowed you should almost always play without hesitation.

18...a5?? was a horrible mistake. 19.Nd6+! Rxd6 20.Rxe8 wins the exchange from which you should have been able to win the game. Black needed to play 18...Kb6, say, to remove the forking threat.

21.Re1 looks wrong too. 21.Nb3 attacking the a and d pawns looks better. If Rb8 (pinning the knight to b2) then you can play your rook up to c4 and threaten to win the d pawn with that piece. Either way you should be winning an important pawn. After 21.Re1 black should have played 21...Rxe1 22.Kxe1 Kb6 to chase away the knight to that he can later play Nb4 and win a pawn. Although you might be able to stymie that plan with threats of you own again the k-side pawns, that needs more analysis. But 21...Rxe1 looks good for Black.

At move 23.Nb3 just wins material immediately. It must be played before Black defends things on the Q-side.

Looks to be a couple of tactical oversights on both sides here were you lose a pawn but it might not matter as black has doubled pawns and I thought 29.h4 was an good keeping g7 backward. However, you seem to have gone from infront to behind in this passage of play (23 - 29). Can I ask the Time Control the game was played under?

At move 33.a4 looks interesting and perhaps your last hope. It is quite a long variation to calculate but perhaps white emerges with an edge. Certainly not losing (I think) after 33.a4 c5 34.Kxc5 Kg4 35.b4 axb4 36.Kxb4 Kh3 37.a5 Kg2 38.a6 Kxf2 39.a7 Kg1 40.a8=Q f2 41.Qh8 f1=Q 42.Qxg7+ Kh2 43.Qxd4 However, there could be some mistakes in there as I only had a quick look through it and Black in particular has a couple of other moves to try.

At move 34 black goes only slightly wrong with 34...Kxh4?! since 34...Kh3 with the idea of promoting the f3 pawn is a quicker plan. However, 34...Kh4 looks to be just sufficient as after the first generatoin of queens are exchanged off, black's other k-side pawns promote a mile before yours.

Oh - chances of perpetual are not good. Black has too many squares covered with Queen and pawns to make that a viable idea unless Black is quite short of time.

Hope this helps.

samspade
08-05-2004, 12:05 AM
19.Nd6+! Rxd6 20.Rxe8 wins the exchange from which you should have been able to win the game.yikes you're right:doh: :doh: And I didn't even see it!:wall: I think it's back to the Reinfeld for me:( . Thank you for your input Barry I go through your comments in more detail when I am more alert as I have been writing letters to my various incompetent political "representatives":sick:all night. thanks again

Kevin Bonham
08-05-2004, 04:26 AM
I thought 34.Ke3 saved but it doesn't, it's really interesting to me that there's no save on that move. I agree with the line Barry gives with 33.a4, I think the final position is fairly easily drawn by Black with best play. There are many other ways to draw for White but they tend not to leave Black any work at all. I think the pawn ending is drawn with best play for both up to the mistake on W33.

Pure pawn endings are tricky and mistakes tend to be fatal. It's a good idea to avoid unclear or bad-looking PP endings unless you have time to calculate them out thoroughly, they're forced, or you have so little time left (in a fixed time game) that you've got no choice to avoid a loss on time.

Rincewind
08-05-2004, 10:38 AM
Yes, once Black makes his intention clear that he is going into a pawn race every tempo is vital. 33.Kxd4 looks natural but wastes one of these tempi. A case of a single tempo being worth more than a pawn!

Rhubarb
09-05-2004, 05:08 AM
It is called the Pelikan or the Sveshnikov.

Baz, I always treated this system quite differently from the Pelikan (for a start, White can play c4). The young Kramnik, with his teenage peers, turned this opening into a viable system in the early '90s. Locally, Gary Lane successfully employed it to become Australian Champion.

I believe the entire system is shithouse, and I look forward to cracking Gary the next chance I get.

Garvinator
09-05-2004, 05:36 AM
Baz, I have always had trouble playing White, but I always treated this system quite differently from the Pelikan (for a start, White can play c4). The young Kramnik, with his teenage peers, turned this opening into a viable system in the early '90s. Locally, Gary Lane successfully employed it to become Australian Champion.

I believe the entire system is shithouse, and I look forward to cracking Gary the next chance I get.
im confused Greg, are you saying the sveshnikov is shithouse?

Rhubarb
09-05-2004, 05:56 AM
im confused Greg, are you saying the sveshnikov is shithouse?
Sorry, gg, perhaps I should have been clearer, this is not the Sveshnikov (Pelikan) at all, because the moves ...Nf6, Nc3 have not been included.
I believe it's called something like the Kalashnikov(?) and is a very poor cousin of the currently unbeatable Pelikan, which is currently the scourge of 1.e4 players at the highest level.

Rhubarb
09-05-2004, 06:19 AM
Actually, "scourge" is an exaggeration, since Anand has personally destroyed more than one of Black's tries.

I also recall that Grischuk said about a year ago that he hoped the Pelikan would be refuted "so we could get back to normal chess". Reading between the lines, I believe he meant "let us consign this antipositional crap to the dustbin."

Rincewind
09-05-2004, 12:35 PM
Baz, I always treated this system quite differently from the Pelikan (for a start, White can play c4). The young Kramnik, with his teenage peers, turned this opening into a viable system in the early '90s. Locally, Gary Lane successfully employed it to become Australian Champion.

I believe the entire system is shithouse, and I look forward to cracking Gary the next chance I get.

Yes that was sloppy of me, you're right, as Black has skipped the usual 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 it is not a Pelikan/Svesh, per se. Could still transpose if 4...e5 is followed with 5.Nb5 Nf6 6.N1c3. 5...a6 would be the Lowenthal after which 6.Nd6+ is still generally good for White (as in the Svesh).

5....d6 is the Kalashnikov and is similar to the Svesh except that as you say c4 has not been prevented and should probably be played on move 6. If black plays the a6 then you still have to play Na3 but the knight isn't as bad since c2 is already clear and you you have a good grip on d5 of course. I think the weakness on d4 could be annoying though (not that I've played against the Kalash that often but I have played lines against the Svesh when you get c4 in a little later, instead of the usual c3).

My last outing I remember against the Svesh was a correspondence game against Steve Kerr. I was completely hammered. I exchanged some post game analysis after the game and it sounds like he is completely sold on the Svesh as God's gift to Black. If anyone's interested I'll dig the game up and post it.

I have since all but retired 1.e4. (Not as a direct result of this game but just because too many people have pet systems and I wanted to adopt a flexible, positional system).

Lucena
12-05-2004, 10:55 AM
Baz, I always treated this system quite differently from the Pelikan (for a start, White can play c4). The young Kramnik, with his teenage peers, turned this opening into a viable system in the early '90s. Locally, Gary Lane successfully employed it to become Australian Champion.

I believe the entire system is shithouse, and I look forward to cracking Gary the next chance I get.

Yes interesting stuff that opening. I played a fun game vs neil wright at auschamps against it. I will post it if I have time later. I don't know if Gary will keep that opening up. His success with it came to an abrupt halt after
Zhong-Yuan "cracked" him at the Doeberl.

Lucena
12-05-2004, 11:28 AM
Yes that was sloppy of me, you're right, as Black has skipped the usual 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 it is not a Pelikan/Svesh, per se. Could still transpose if 4...e5 is followed with 5.Nb5 Nf6 6.N1c3. 5...a6 would be the Lowenthal after which 6.Nd6+ is still generally good for White (as in the Svesh)


I tried to play this as Black against David Dick hoping to get a sveshnikov at city of sydney and we got e4 c5 Nf3 Nc6 d4 cd Nxd4 e5 Nb5 Nf6 Bg5 and I was perplexed-couldn't find any good reply. I probably should have replied Bc5 but I played d6 and got into an unpleasant position :doh:.

Rincewind
12-05-2004, 11:49 AM
I tried to play this as Black against David Dick hoping to get a sveshnikov at city of sydney and we got e4 c5 Nf3 Nc6 d4 cd Nxd4 e5 Nb5 Nf6 Bg5 and I was perplexed-couldn't find any good reply. I probably should have replied Bc5 but I played d6 and got into an unpleasant position :doh:.

Sounds like you got Kalashed. But I'm confused. If you wanted a Sveshnikov, why didn't you play 4...Nf6?

JGB
12-05-2004, 07:37 PM
If you dont like all this theory its possible to play 2. f4 (Gp a ttack) or 2.c3 (Alapin) as white. I believe in both cases white is still good and the advantage is not lost. For these you dont need as much theory, as youll normally end up with a more open attacking game, unless Black surrenders the centre.

Kevin Bonham
13-05-2004, 02:15 AM
If you dont like all this theory its possible to play 2. f4 (Gp a ttack) or 2.c3 (Alapin) as white. I believe in both cases white is still good and the advantage is not lost.

I thought that 2.f4 had been pretty much equalised against these days. NCO awards it only one row with both the row and its footnotes ending in = signs.

Not that it matters so much at any level below, say, 2200.

I'm quite keen on 3.c3 against any of ...e6, ...Nf6 and ...d6 (though I usually play Bg5 against the latter two). Unfortunately on some of my outings with 2...d6 3.c3 as White I've got magnificent positions by about move 15, only to somehow manage to lose. :wall:

A rather different sideline if you don't mind Black having theoretical equality is 2.g3.

JGB
13-05-2004, 09:45 PM
I thought that 2.f4 had been pretty much equalised against these days. NCO awards it only one row with both the row and its

.


Yeah your probably right Kevin, although Im not above 2200 as aren't most of my opponents. Although 'equalising' still requires well calculated responces from black as white has many different ideas in mind, even though they are all based around a king side hack! 2. f4 is still played at GM level although not as often as in the early 90's, for me thats a good reason to play it now, the same reason I play the Budapest Gambit and Cambrigde Springs often against Queens pawn games; most players are just not up on the theory. Its easy to 'know' that an opening is easy to equalise against but achieving it is not all the same.


2.g3 is common variant of the closed sicilian.

Kevin Bonham
14-05-2004, 02:37 AM
Its easy to 'know' that an opening is easy to equalise against but achieving it is not all the same.

Absolutely. Practically my opening-theory motto for practical play. And that's why I still sometimes play the stodgy old 4 knights against average club players giving them every chance to rip half a point off me pretty easily if only they know enough to do it.

As a general rule, they don't.

Lucena
14-05-2004, 11:26 AM
Sounds like you got Kalashed. But I'm confused. If you wanted a Sveshnikov, why didn't you play 4...Nf6?
because if I'd gone for a sveshnikov the normal way, e4 c5 Nf3 Nc6 d4 cd Nxd4 Nf6 Nc3 e5 Ndb5 d6, he would have gone Nd5 which is not quite so interesting for Black. Playing it the way I did meant that if we do get a sveshnikov, it's a real sveshnikov, which I thought would have been interesting.

Rincewind
14-05-2004, 12:12 PM
because if I'd gone for a sveshnikov the normal way, e4 c5 Nf3 Nc6 d4 cd Nxd4 Nf6 Nc3 e5 Ndb5 d6, he would have gone Nd5 which is not quite so interesting for Black. Playing it the way I did meant that if we do get a sveshnikov, it's a real sveshnikov, which I thought would have been interesting.

A case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. ;)

Lucena
14-05-2004, 10:19 PM
A rather different sideline if you don't mind Black having theoretical equality is 2.g3.

White has to be careful there-Black can whip up a nasty attack fairly easily if he's permitted-eg: e4 c5 g3 d5 exd5 Qxd5 Nf3 Bg4 Bg2 Qe6+ Kf1 Nc6 and castles queenside-I discovered that a little while ago to my cost :doh:

Kevin Bonham
15-05-2004, 02:56 AM
White has to be careful there-Black can whip up a nasty attack fairly easily if he's permitted-eg: e4 c5 g3 d5 exd5 Qxd5 Nf3 Bg4 Bg2 Qe6+ Kf1 Nc6 and castles queenside-I discovered that a little while ago to my cost :doh:

This is the main line (as far as I know) if Black plays 2...d5. It's not normal though for Black to castle q-side for several moves (there is one line where the Qs go off and then it happens). I'm not sure I'd play 2.g3 against someone who I thought would be well prepared against it. The end positions often look a bit loose for White, and I'm not too keen on loose positions unless they are the kind where I have a substantial attack.