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Oepty
14-03-2007, 06:46 PM
Who are Australia's greatest ever chess players?
Scott

Denis_Jessop
14-03-2007, 09:23 PM
Who are Australia's greatest ever chess players?
Scott

Likely to cause lots of argument so, to get the ball rolling, I'll put up, off the top of my head, in rough chronological order:

Esling
Watson
Steiner
Purdy (CJS)
Koshnitsky
Goldstein
Rogers
Johanssen

and see who bites.

DJ

antichrist
14-03-2007, 09:31 PM
Was it Rogers or the Aust Encylopedia(?) who said that Flatow was Aussies most misunderstood player - doesn't Fred rank?

Kevin Bonham
14-03-2007, 10:10 PM
I had a look on chessmetrics to see who it rated and while many famous Australian players weren't even rated in its system (and Purdy only in the twilight of his career), Jamieson and Endzelins are both rated by chessmetrics as among the top 100 in the world at some stage of their career.

JGB
15-03-2007, 08:33 AM
Who are Australia's greatest ever chess players?
Scott
A few of the very best, in alphabetical order, were:
(a rough guess of when their best chess was played)


Esling, F (1885 – 1915)
Fuller, M (1965 – 80)
Hjorth, G (1977 – 1986)
Jamieson, R (1972 – 1991)
Johansen, D (1978 – )
Purdy, C (1924 – 1963)
Rogers, I (1977 – )
Solomon, S (1983 – )
Wallace. A. (1890 – 1920)
Wallace, J (1993 – 2000)
Watson, C (1906 – 1935)

firegoat7
15-03-2007, 09:57 AM
Ahem cough cough,

I think some key names have been left off the list here.
Of course they are all MCC LEGENDS!! and two of them are still alive!

G.West
D.Hamilton
and
the infamous F.A Crowl

cheers Fg7

AlexDavies
16-03-2007, 03:04 AM
Bela Berger: http://www.chessdiscountsales.com/news/news.htm

JGB
16-03-2007, 09:56 AM
Bela Berger: http://www.chessdiscountsales.com/news/news.htm

What are you trying to say? That link has little to do with this topic, well as far as I could be bothered reading. I will give you some time to edit or delete your post so it fits in with the topic, otherwise it will be deleted as spam.

Watto
16-03-2007, 10:08 AM
What are you trying to say? That link has little to do with this topic, well as far as I could be bothered reading. I will give you some time to edit or delete your post so it fits in with the topic, otherwise it will be deleted as spam.
Wasn't Berger a strong Australian player? Berger Cup named after him perhaps?

JGB
16-03-2007, 10:10 AM
Wasn't Berger a strong Australian player? Berger Cup named after him perhaps?

Exactly my point... why isn't that clear from Alex's post? Why do we need to click a link to another page to find out a posters view?

It is fair enough to add Berger; now I would have to make the following additions to my list above...

Berger, B 1955 – 1963
Koshnitsky, G 1930 – 1955
Steiner, L 1939 – 1960

Watto
16-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Exactly my point... why isn't that clear from Alex's post? Why do we need to click a link to another page to find out a posters view?
It is clearly not spam. Might have been better if he'd linked to www.chessgames.com/player/bela_berger.html or chessmetrics but if you start applying that rule consistently here you'll be getting very hot under the collar... ;)
Anyway, a general question for those in the know: did he move to Australia at a later age or was he born and bred here?

Carl Gorka
16-03-2007, 04:52 PM
Would Walter Browne count?

Kevin Bonham
16-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Would Walter Browne count?

I guess this is a demarcation question for the thread-starter to answer: do players who were only temporarily here qualify?

Perhaps greatness should be judged on the basis of greatness while the player was Australian?

Denis_Jessop
16-03-2007, 07:15 PM
I guess this is a demarcation question for the thread-starter to answer: do players who were only temporarily here qualify?

Perhaps greatness should be judged on the basis of greatness while the player was Australian?

The problem is that a lot of Australian chess players were only temporarily here (otherwise than in the sense that we are all only temporarily here) or were not born in Australia. Shawn Browne was, I think, born here, Cecil Purdy wasn't. Greg Hjorth hasn't lived her for ages. Players like Steiner, Koshnitsky, Goldstein, Berger etc all attained adulthood before coming here. Steiner played his best chess before coming here though he was still good enough to thrash the best here. These things are only a bit of fun anyway as the main idea is to identify our best players without getting too worried about the rules for selection.

Bill Gletsos
16-03-2007, 07:26 PM
FWIW Browne was =19th in the world in the Jan 1976 FIDE list rated 2585.

Carl Gorka
16-03-2007, 07:32 PM
The problem is that a lot of Australian chess players were only temporarily here (otherwise than in the sense that we are all only temporarily here) or were not born in Australia. Shawne Browne was, I think, born here, Cecil Purdy wasn't. Greg Hjorth hasn't lived her for ages. Players like Steiner, Koshnitsky, Goldstein, Berger etc all attained adulthood before coming here. Steiner played his best chess before coming here though he was still good enough to thrash the best here. These things are only a bit of fun anyway as the main idea is to identify our best players without getting too worried about the rules for selection.

In that case, I say Walter Browne as the greatest ever Aussie player. He represented Aus twice at Olympiads 1970 and 1972, represented Aus at Junior events, and was born in Aus.

He played in superGM events the likes of which no other Aussie player has competed in, in the 1970's and won that monster tourney in Indonesia in 1982:)

Very interesting info about him at wiki....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Browne

Denis_Jessop
16-03-2007, 09:29 PM
In that case, I say Walter Browne as the greatest ever Aussie player. He represented Aus twice at Olympiads 1970 and 1972, represented Aus at Junior events, and was born in Aus.

He played in superGM events the likes of which no other Aussie player has competed in, in the 1970's and won that monster tourney in Indonesia in 1982:)

Very interesting info about him at wiki....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Browne

This only points up the matter raised by Kevin even more starkly. It is strongly arguable - indeed I would so argue - that Lajos Steiner was comparatively far stronger than Shawn Browne but when he, Steiner, was playing in Europe in the 1920s and 30s and thus well before he came to Australia. For example, Steiner tied for second with Nimzovich behind Alekhine at Kecskemet 1927 and represented Hungary in four Olympiads playing either board 1 or 2 in the course of which he won individual bronze and silver medals and a team gold. That's just part of it. I am inclined to think that at that time he would have been rated higher than 19th in the world and there were some who saw him as a future World Champion.

DJ

Denis_Jessop
16-03-2007, 09:32 PM
FWIW Browne was =19th in the world in the Jan 1976 FIDE list rated 2585.

An interesting reflection on the state of FIDE ratings!

DJ

Bill Gletsos
16-03-2007, 09:55 PM
An interesting reflection on the state of FIDE ratings!Yes, only 14 were rated 2600 or higher. Of those Fischer was the highest rated at 2780 but was inactive with Karpov next at 2695.

Carl Gorka
17-03-2007, 12:42 AM
This only points up the matter raised by Kevin even more starkly. It is strongly arguable - indeed I would so argue - that Lajos Steiner was comparatively far stronger than Shawn Browne but when he, Steiner, was playing in Europe in the 1920s and 30s and thus well before he came to Australia. For example, Steiner tied for second with Nimzovich behind Alekhine at Kecskemet 1927 and represented Hungary in four Olympiads playing either board 1 or 2 in the course of which he won individual bronze and silver medals and a team gold. That's just part of it. I am inclined to think that at that time he would have been rated higher than 19th in the world and there were some who saw him as a future World Champion.

DJ

Hmmm, I had no idea that Steiner was that good. Who considered him a future World Champ? He certainly had a few decent enough results, but not exactly the ones you mentioned. For example, according to olimpbase, Steiner won 1 bronze medal in his olympiad playing days....exactly the same as Browne. And he represented Hungary 3 times, not 4. At Kecskemet, he came 3rd in the final group behind Nimzovich and Alekhine. Mark you, these are still pretty impressive results, considering he beat Nimzovich in their prelim group.

Still I would consider some of Browne's victories at least comparable to this such as Reykjavik 1978 ahead of Larsen, Miles, Hort, Polugaevsky, et al, or 1st= at Wijk in 1980, ahead of Korchnoi, Timman et al. I'll admit that Browne could finish last in tournaments, but then again, so could Steiner.

They both must go down in Australia's finest....

Kevin Bonham
17-03-2007, 12:50 AM
Chessmetrics ranks Steiner the best in terms of overall career (peak #11 in world, 1937). Its highest ranking for Browne is #27, summer 1975-6.

Basil
17-03-2007, 12:56 AM
They both must go down in Australia's finest....
^That's the money shot!

Good thread, Scott. Informative. Valuable.

Carl Gorka
17-03-2007, 07:30 AM
Chessmetrics ranks Steiner the best in terms of overall career (peak #11 in world, 1937). Its highest ranking for Browne is #27, summer 1975-6.

Chessmetrics is not the criteria I would personally use for assessing a player's greatness.

Carl Gorka
17-03-2007, 07:33 AM
Hmmm, I had no idea that Steiner was that good. Who considered him a future World Champ? He certainly had a few decent enough results, but not exactly the ones you mentioned. For example, according to olimpbase, Steiner won 1 bronze medal in his olympiad playing days....exactly the same as Browne. And he represented Hungary 3 times, not 4. At Kecskemet, he came 3rd in the final group behind Nimzovich and Alekhine. Mark you, these are still pretty impressive results, considering he beat Nimzovich in their prelim group.

Still I would consider some of Browne's victories at least comparable to this such as Reykjavik 1978 ahead of Larsen, Miles, Hort, Polugaevsky, et al, or 1st= at Wijk in 1980, ahead of Korchnoi, Timman et al. I'll admit that Browne could finish last in tournaments, but then again, so could Steiner.

They both must go down in Australia's finest....


Hmmm, it seems that olimpbase doesn't include the 1936 Munich Olympiad in their reckoning. Perhaps their site needs some updating.

Carl Gorka
17-03-2007, 07:35 AM
^That's the money shot!

Good thread, Scott. Informative. Valuable.

Yes, very interesting. I'd never really looked at L Steiner until yesterday and anything that broadens my horizons I consider good:)

Denis_Jessop
17-03-2007, 10:51 AM
Hmmm, I had no idea that Steiner was that good. Who considered him a future World Champ? He certainly had a few decent enough results, but not exactly the ones you mentioned. For example, according to olimpbase, Steiner won 1 bronze medal in his olympiad playing days....exactly the same as Browne. And he represented Hungary 3 times, not 4. At Kecskemet, he came 3rd in the final group behind Nimzovich and Alekhine. Mark you, these are still pretty impressive results, considering he beat Nimzovich in their prelim group.

Still I would consider some of Browne's victories at least comparable to this such as Reykjavik 1978 ahead of Larsen, Miles, Hort, Polugaevsky, et al, or 1st= at Wijk in 1980, ahead of Korchnoi, Timman et al. I'll admit that Browne could finish last in tournaments, but then again, so could Steiner.

They both must go down in Australia's finest....

I got my info. in part from John Purdy's note in the Australian Dictionary of Biography www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A160363b.htm . The difference in Olympiad stats arises from the unofficial Olympiad. Those I got from Wikipedia. The individual silver and team gold were both from the unofficial 1936 Munich Olympiad. The comment about a possible future world champion is something I remember from many years ago. It's not in the Preface to "Kings of the Chessboard" so I probably read it in Cecil Purdy's magazine "Chess World".

DJ

Denis_Jessop
17-03-2007, 11:39 AM
There seems to be some uncertainty in some quarters about the result of the Kecskemet 1927 tournament. The wikipedia bio note on Vukovic even says it was won by Steiner. The confusion arises because the event was run in pteliminary and final round robins with players seeded into the preliminary groups. The prelim groups comprised 10 plyers each with the top 4 in each group going into the final. Alekhine won group A with 8/9. Steiner won group B with 8/9 ahead of Nimzo (2nd) with 6.5. In the final, the finishing order of the top 3 was Nimzo 5, Alekhine 4, Steiner 3.5. Thus the final totals were Alekhine 12, Nimzo and Steiner 11.5.

Crosstables:

pre-A, Kecskemet 1927

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

--------------------

1. Alekhine, Alexander * 1 = = 1 1 1 1 1 1 8.0

2. Asztalos, Lajos 0 * = = 1 1 1 1 = 1 6.5

3. Kmoch, Hans = = * = = = 1 1 = 1 6.0

4. Gilg, Karl = = = * = = 1 = 1 = 5.5

5. Takacs, Sandor 0 0 = = * = = 1 1 = 4.5

6. Tartakower, Savielly 0 0 = = = * 0 = 1 1 4.0

7. Brinckmann, Alfred 0 0 0 0 = 1 * 1 0 1 3.5

8. Yates, Frederick 0 0 0 = 0 = 0 * 1 1 3.0

9. Muller, Hans 0 = = 0 0 0 1 0 * = 2.5

10. Sarkozy, Balazs 0 0 0 = = 0 0 0 = * 1.5



(45 games)





pre-B, Kecskemet 1927

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

--------------------

1. Steiner, Lajos * = 1 = 1 1 1 1 1 1 8.0

2. Nimzovich, Aaron = * = = = 1 1 = 1 1 6.5

3. Vajda, Arpad 0 = * 1 1 = 1 = = 0 5.0 21.50

4. Ahues, Karl = = 0 * 1 = 0 = 1 1 5.0 20.75

5. Colle, Edgar 0 = 0 0 * = 1 1 1 1 5.0 16.50

6. Grunfeld, Ernst 0 0 = = = * = 1 = 1 4.5

7. Vukovic, Vladimir 0 0 0 1 0 = * 1 0 1 3.5

8. Berndtsson, Karl 0 = = = 0 0 0 * = = 2.5 10.75

9. Przepiorka, David 0 0 = 0 0 = 1 = * 0 2.5 9.50

10. Szekely, Jeno 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 = 1 * 2.5 8.75



(45 games)





fin-A, Kecskemet 1927

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

----------------

1. Nimzovich, Aaron * = 0 = 1 1 1 1 5.0

2. Alekhine, Alexander = * = = = = = 1 4.0

3. Steiner, Lajos 1 = * 0 = = = = 3.5 13.00

4. Asztalos, Lajos = = 1 * 0 = = = 3.5 12.25

5. Ahues, Karl 0 = = 1 * = = = 3.5 11.50

6. Vajda, Arpad 0 = = = = * 1 = 3.5 11.00

7. Gilg, Karl 0 = = = = 0 * = 2.5 8.50

8. Kmoch, Hans 0 0 = = = = = * 2.5 8.25



(28 games)





fin-B, Kecskemet 1927

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

----------------

1. Tartakower, Savielly * 1 1 = = = 1 = 5.0 17.50

2. Yates, Frederick 0 * 1 = 1 1 = 1 5.0 14.75

3. Berndtsson, Karl 0 0 * = 1 1 1 1 4.5

4. Grunfeld, Ernst = = = * = = 1 = 4.0

5. Takacs, Sandor = 0 0 = * = 1 1 3.5

6. Brinckmann, Alfred = 0 0 = = * 0 1 2.5 7.25

7. Vukovic, Vladimir 0 = 0 0 0 1 * 1 2.5 6.00

8. Colle, Edgar = 0 0 = 0 0 0 * 1.0



(28 games)

DJ

Kevin Bonham
17-03-2007, 12:50 PM
Chessmetrics is not the criteria I would personally use for assessing a player's greatness.

It has its problems (as has been seen on previous threads) but I still find that it is an interesting glimpse of how a player might have scrubbed up on a rating list if there had been a rating list at certain times.

Oepty
17-03-2007, 04:48 PM
Would Walter Browne count?

I don't know enough of the history to be able to give an authoritative answer either way.
Scott

antichrist
19-03-2007, 11:43 AM
Question begging I was, why did the Aussie Encycl about 1975 version say Fred was mis-understood?

MichaelBaron
19-03-2007, 08:03 PM
Was it Rogers or the Aust Encylopedia(?) who said that Flatow was Aussies most misunderstood player - doesn't Fred rank?
Being "misunderstood" is not good enough :owned:

Phil Bourke
19-03-2007, 09:31 PM
My questions are:
1) What, if any, is the story behind Steiner emigrating and Browne returning to Australia?
2) Does anyone have biographical material or information about Flatow?

antichrist
20-03-2007, 08:24 AM
My questions are:
1) What, if any, is the story behind Steiner emigrating and Browne returning to Australia?
2) Does anyone have biographical material or information about Flatow?

Fred is still very healthily kicking at Canterbury Bulldogs club at Sydney. He didn't go too well in a SEC but.

antichrist
20-03-2007, 08:25 AM
Being "misunderstood" is not good enough :owned:

Maybe Fred was an Animal that is why!

A very obliging chap and gentleman. Not like Mike who excludes people.

MichaelBaron
20-03-2007, 09:53 AM
Maybe Fred was an Animal that is why!

A very obliging chap and gentleman. Not like Mike who excludes people.

I am obliging and a gentelman towards anyone...but idiots!:owned:

No serious chess historian would compare Flatow with Shteiner or Browne or Rogers

pax
20-03-2007, 10:52 AM
In that case, I say Walter Browne as the greatest ever Aussie player. He represented Aus twice at Olympiads 1970 and 1972, represented Aus at Junior events, and was born in Aus.

He played in superGM events the likes of which no other Aussie player has competed in, in the 1970's and won that monster tourney in Indonesia in 1982:)

Very interesting info about him at wiki....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Browne

Most people probably regard Walter Browne as an American product. Yes, he was born here and represented Australia in two Olympiads, but there seems little doubt that he regards himself as an American first and that he learned and developed his chess in the USA.

It seems a disservice to players such as Steiner and Rogers to call Browne Australia's greatest player.

A pertinent quote from an interview with Browne:

c: Under what circumstances did you come to live in the United States?

WB: My father is a third generation American; my Mother is a citizen of
Australia. So I was born in Australia but was a U.S. citizen; a dual
citizen of Australia and the U.S. at birth. We came to the U.S. when I was
three years old, and I grew up around New York. I moved to California in
1973.

Previous discussion on chesschat in this thread:
http://www.chesschat.org//showthread.php?t=1619

antichrist
20-03-2007, 11:13 AM
I am obliging and a gentelman towards anyone...but idiots!:owned:

No serious chess historian would compare Flatow with Shteiner or Browne or Rogers

He certainly did not go overseas much that I know of to earn a international titles etc. But he did dominate the scene for awhile I think, winning or equal winning about 10 City of Sydney (& maybe state championships) that included the best players in Australia at the time.

I know he considers this more significant that being national champion.

But again you understand - that you also may be mis-understanding him as stated in the Australia Encycl...

I still have not found why they claimed he was misunderstood - what a burden in life? I guess should look up who the author of that entry was, but that set of books is in Sydney.

Denis_Jessop
20-03-2007, 11:40 AM
My questions are:
1) What, if any, is the story behind Steiner emigrating and Browne returning to Australia?
2) Does anyone have biographical material or information about Flatow?

1) Briefly -

Steiner: Because, I think, being Jewish, he saw the writing on the wall and he liked Australia. He had visited here a couple of years earlier on a world tour. His father and brother Endre, also a very good chess player, were not so lucky and died in concentration camps, so I believe.

Browne: The cynical, and perhaps accurate, view at the time was because he could get a game in the Australian Olympiad team (at bd 1) but not in the US one. I don't think he ever had any intention of staying here for long.

2) I tried to find a reference on the web the other day but couldn't. There are a lot of Flatows there but nothing comprehensive on our Fred. I can say from my own knowledge that Fred has been playing for many years and his father Kurt also played until his death quite some time ago. Fred has won the Doeberl Cup 3 times, the first jointly with Cecil Purdy and Terrey Shaw in 1970 and again in 1972 and 1979. His other successes include the City of Sydney in 1963 (his first major one) ahead of Fuller, Hay, Fell both purdys, Kellner nad Viner, among others and the NSW Championship in 1964 ahead of Fell, Cecil Purdy, Berger and Fuller (this info from Purdy's "Chess World").

DJ

antichrist
20-03-2007, 11:45 AM
1) ..........
2) I tried to find a reference on the web the other day but couldn't. There are a lot of Flatows there but nothing comprehensive on our Fred. I can say from my own knowledge that Fred has been playing for many years and his father Kurt also played until his death quite some time ago. Fred has won the Doeberl Cup 3 times, the first jointly with Cecil Purdy and Terrey Shaw in 1970 and again in 1972 and 1979. His other successes include the City of Sydney in 1963 (his first major one) ahead of Fuller, Hay, Fell both purdys, Kellner nad Viner, among others and the NSW Championship in 1964 ahead of Fell, Cecil Purdy, Berger and Fuller (this info from Purdy's "Chess World").

DJ

Was Fuller in long pants when this happned

Denis_Jessop
20-03-2007, 02:53 PM
Was Fuller in long pants when this happned

He was Australian Junior Champion the same year.

DJ

Phil Bourke
20-03-2007, 03:24 PM
Thank you Dennis.

Oepty
21-03-2007, 05:12 PM
What to prople know about Frank Sulik and how strong a player he was? I know he won many SA championships.
Scott

Denis_Jessop
21-03-2007, 08:02 PM
What to prople know about Frank Sulik and how strong a player he was? I know he won many SA championships.
Scott

I know nothing personally though I have found some references in Chess World and the following short note in Wikipedia


Franciszek Sulik
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Franciszek (Frank) Sulik (born 1908, Lvov, Poland (now Ukraine) – died 2000, Adelaide, Australia) was a Polish chess master.

Before WW II, he lived in Lvov (Lviv, Lwów, Lemberg). In 1934, he tied for 2nd-3rd with Henryk Friedman, behind Stepan Popel, in Lvov championship. In 1935, he tied for 8-9th in Warsaw (3rd POL-ch; Savielly Tartakower won). In 1936, he took 2nd, behind Izak Schächter, in Lvov-ch. In 1938, he won Lvov championship.

He played for Poland in Chess Olympiads, and won two team silver medals.
In 1936, at first reserve board in unofficial Olympiad in Munich (+2 –3 =2);
In 1939, at reserve board in the 8th Olympiad in Buenos Aires (+4 –2 =1).

In September 1939, when the war was broke out, he had decided to stay in Argentina like many other chess players at the tournament. In 1940, he took 2nd place, behind Aristide Gromer, in Buenos Aires (Bodas de Plata). In 1941, he tied for 10-12th in Mar del Plata (Gideon Stahlberg won).

As a reserve officer, he applied to join the Polish Army. He left Argentina by a British battle-ship to fight in Italy in 1943–1945. At the end of the war he moved to Scotland, and at last emigrated to Australia, where he won seven times the South Australian Championship (1954, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1976/78).

Some idea of his strength can be gained from his being in the Polish Olympiad team which finished second in 1939.

In CW in 1954 (p63) Purdy comments that CW recorded the arrival of Sulik in Australia but apparently he lived for some tears in outback NSW and played no chess. CW had commented on his arrival that on paper he was "the foremost master to migrate to Australia since Lajos Steiner". In 1954 he re-surfaced at the Polish Club in Adelaide. In that year he won the Adelaide Club Championship with 8.5/9 and then the SA Championship with 5/5 ahead of Endzelins. In the City of Adelaide Championship in 1955 he tied for first with Endzelins with 8/9 and then beat Endzelins 2.5 - 0.5 in the play-off. Purdy commented that Sulik "must be one of Australia's strongest players". However, he doesn't seem to have lived up to that outside SA. I can find (on a quick look) only one other reference in CW to his playing in a tournament when he finished 11th in the 1963 Australian Championship played in Perth and won by John Purdy. Many of Australia's top players of the daye were in front of him in that event, namely, John Purdy, Hay, Geus, Ozols, C. Purdy, Weber (Tasmania and former champion of the Austrian Tyrol - I just had to get that in)Hanks, Kellner and Crowl (the Australian Nimzovich - and that too!) in that order. It would seem from his record in the SA Champioship that he began to be active again in the 1970s when he would have been in his 60s (70 when he won the last one).

DJ

firegoat7
22-03-2007, 10:26 AM
Anyway,


Forget about the opportunist Browne.

Lets talk F A Crowl. Do any of the Sydneysiders have any stories about his life?
Is it true he took up residence at Hyde Park?

Was Purdy an admirer or denegrator of him? Did Purdy simply not like him because he played unsound openings and was a blitz hustler?

Did Crowl ever beat Purdy in key games?

cheers Fg7

Denis_Jessop
22-03-2007, 02:31 PM
Anyway,


Forget about the opportunist Browne.

Lets talk F A Crowl. Do any of the Sydneysiders have any stories about his life?
Is it true he took up residence at Hyde Park?

Was Purdy an admirer or denegrator of him? Did Purdy simply not like him because he played unsound openings and was a blitz hustler?

Did Crowl ever beat Purdy in key games?

cheers Fg7

From my reading of "Chess World" at the time (1950s and 60s) I did not get any impression that Purdy did not like Crowl. The two were quite different personalities and so was their chess but there is evidence that Purdy admired Crowl's play. On a quick look at CW I have found a fairly long biographical note in Qctober 1950, p.230, and another mention of his play in July 1948, p. 132. In the latter headed The Australian Nimzovich, a description Purdy had given of him some time before, Purdy says, among other things


A native of Melbourne Crowl roamed the world and was still in his twenties when he returned to Australia about twenty years ago. Several times champion of Victoria, he has never finished higher than second in the Australian championship, but some of his best games are monumuents of strategic brilliance and originality. Not even Lajos Steiner can quite fathom what Crowl is up to when he is playing him.

In the 1950 article, Purdy said


Crowl's play at its best is so full of original strategic ideas that it is pathetic to see him beaten up - as he has been at times - by woodshifters who would not even recognise a strategic idea if it was handed to them on a plate, let alone ever concoct one themselves. Alas! Ideas are not paramount in competitive chess, but rather, avoidance of oversight.

DJ

PS I don't know about Crowl's record against Purdy, but Purdy says that Crowl didn't ever beat Koshnitsky, which probably only proves that K had the wood on C as some players do on others.

Oepty
22-03-2007, 06:33 PM
I know nothing personally though I have found some references in Chess World and the following short note in Wikipedia



Some idea of his strength can be gained from his being in the Polish Olympiad team which finished second in 1939.

In CW in 1954 (p63) Purdy comments that CW recorded the arrival of Sulik in Australia but apparently he lived for some tears in outback NSW and played no chess. CW had commented on his arrival that on paper he was "the foremost master to migrate to Australia since Lajos Steiner". In 1954 he re-surfaced at the Polish Club in Adelaide. In that year he won the Adelaide Club Championship with 8.5/9 and then the SA Championship with 5/5 ahead of Endzelins. In the City of Adelaide Championship in 1955 he tied for first with Endzelins with 8/9 and then beat Endzelins 2.5 - 0.5 in the play-off. Purdy commented that Sulik "must be one of Australia's strongest players". However, he doesn't seem to have lived up to that outside SA. I can find (on a quick look) only one other reference in CW to his playing in a tournament when he finished 11th in the 1963 Australian Championship played in Perth and won by John Purdy. Many of Australia's top players of the daye were in front of him in that event, namely, John Purdy, Hay, Geus, Ozols, C. Purdy, Weber (Tasmania and former champion of the Austrian Tyrol - I just had to get that in)Hanks, Kellner and Crowl (the Australian Nimzovich - and that too!) in that order. It would seem from his record in the SA Champioship that he began to be active again in the 1970s when he would have been in his 60s (70 when he won the last one).

DJ

Thank you for the answer Denis. I thought Sulik had won more than seven SA champs. I will have to check the board in the CC next Tuesday night
Scott

ER
23-03-2007, 02:06 AM
Alex Wohl?
Cheers and good luck

antichrist
23-03-2007, 07:49 AM
Dennis, on Fred Flatow you, (Purdy) did not mention his winning of a few Aust Champ comps.

Denis_Jessop
23-03-2007, 02:47 PM
Dennis, on Fred Flatow you, (Purdy) did not mention his winning of a few Aust Champ comps.

According to the ACF website, he has won the Australian Championship once (1970) and the Australian Open not at all. Chess World ceased publication in 1967.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
23-03-2007, 05:14 PM
It would be interesting to know roughly how many Australian players of the past, and which ones, would have been great enough to qualify for the GM title had the GM title been as obtainable then as now. I get the feeling that if you go back several decades, the "masters" of that age would all be grandmasters now.

Denis_Jessop
23-03-2007, 07:07 PM
It would be interesting to know roughly how many Australian players of the past, and which ones, would have been great enough to qualify for the GM title had the GM title been as obtainable then as now. I get the feeling that if you go back several decades, the "masters" of that age would all be grandmasters now.

There must be a distinction between theory and practice here. That is, several of them would perhaps have been strong enough to be GMs just as I suspect that several players are now strong enough but aren't. The problem is getting to play enough qualifying tournaments and lack of constant practice at top level. That was even more marked several decades ago when there were many fewer Asian events staged and travel to Europe was comparatively much more expensive. So even if the rules had been then as they are now, in practice I think we would have had no more GMs for practical/economic reasons.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
23-03-2007, 08:38 PM
There must be a distinction between theory and practice here. That is, several of them would perhaps have been strong enough to be GMs just as I suspect that several players are now strong enough but aren't.

Yes, this is true, we have some GMs-in-waiting who would be GMs by now if they lived somewhere with more opportunities. Two or three players at least may fit this bill.

Maybe a more useful way to put the question (although I suspect it's almost unanswerable anyway) is how many past Australian players, at their best, were as strong as or stronger than GM Johansen, ditto.

Metro
27-03-2007, 12:21 AM
Can anyone tell us about 1976 Australian champion,Serge Rubanraut?
(perhaps our friend Axiom)
Mr.Rosario tells us he has just turned 59.

ER
27-03-2007, 12:50 AM
Can anyone tell us about 1976 Australian champion,Serge Rubanraut?
(perhaps our friend Axiom)
Mr.Rosario tells us he has just turned 59.

I have the best memories of Serge from Sydney, in the late seventies while he was playing some blitz games at Hyde Park vs Fuller, Curtis and other strong players. Very polite and nice young man then.
I also met him years after (circa 1986) when he visited MCC as a guest of Mr Peter Daly. Again, he was very courteous and more than willing to talk about Chess and to show some interesting positions.
Now for his age, I could never believe that he is a couple of months older than myself (59). In my opinion he is much younger, but then again... :)
Cheers and good luck to all!

Metro
27-03-2007, 01:45 AM
I have the best memories of Serge from Sydney, in the late seventies while he was playing some blitz games at Hyde Park vs Fuller, Curtis and other strong players. Very polite and nice young man then.
I also met him years after (circa 1986) when he visited MCC as a guest of Mr Peter Daly. Again, he was very courteous and more than willing to talk about Chess and to show some interesting positions.
Now for his age, I could never believe that he is a couple of months older than myself (59). In my opinion he is much younger, but then again... :)
Cheers and good luck to all!

Is it true he was born in Shanghai? And raised in former USSR?

ER
27-03-2007, 01:46 AM
Is it true he was born in Shanghai? And raised in former USSR?

I don't know about that Met, so I can't comment!
Cheers and good luck

Metro
27-03-2007, 01:52 AM
I don't know about that Met, so I can't comment!
Cheers and good luck

Serge Rubanraut b.16 March,1948 Shanghai

(Guinness chess,the records,Ken Whyld,1986)

Oepty
28-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Thank you for the answer Denis. I thought Sulik had won more than seven SA champs. I will have to check the board in the CC next Tuesday night
Scott

Denis, According to the boards in the Chess Center Sulik won 9 state champions and 3 City of Adelaide Championships. On rereading the Wikipedia piece they do list 9 dates, even if they only say 7.
Scott

Denis_Jessop
28-03-2007, 10:00 PM
Denis, According to the boards in the Chess Center Sulik won 9 state champions and 3 City of Adelaide Championships. On rereading the Wikipedia piece they do list 9 dates, even if they only say 7.
Scott

Hello Scott

Yes; it seems that the person who wrote the Wikipedia note must have thought that 1976/78 was the one event, not three. In any case, there isn't any doubt that intrinsically Sulik was one of the strongest players of his time, at the least.

Denis

Oepty
30-03-2007, 05:53 PM
It would be interesting to know roughly how many Australian players of the past, and which ones, would have been great enough to qualify for the GM title had the GM title been as obtainable then as now. I get the feeling that if you go back several decades, the "masters" of that age would all be grandmasters now.

Kevin. I think that there are a number of players of the past that were closer in strength to the world champion than most of our top players are now.
Scott

Kevin Bonham
30-03-2007, 06:04 PM
Kevin. I think that there are a number of players of the past that were closer in strength to the world champion than most of our top players are now.
Scott

I think this is certainly true, although most of these moved here rather than being "home-grown". An interesting side-question could be who was the strongest Australian-born chess player?

I'm looking forward to JGB's book for examples of the play of some of our legends. I'm really not that familiar with the games of most players prior to about 1980, excepting the 13-times Tasmanian champion Weber who was a threat to leading players of the day but somewhat erratic against them; I reckon he was borderline FM-IM strength by modern standards.

Oepty
30-03-2007, 06:11 PM
I think this is certainly true, although most of these moved here rather than being "home-grown". An interesting side-question could be who was the strongest Australian-born chess player?

Kevin. I would put forward Henry Charlick the second Australian Champion as being extremely strong, although I don't definitely he was in Australia. In Bill Anderson-Smith's SA games database it shows a match or perhaps part of a match against Joseph Blackburne. I will post the full details in a couple days.
Scott

Denis_Jessop
30-03-2007, 09:22 PM
I think this is certainly true, although most of these moved here rather than being "home-grown". An interesting side-question could be who was the strongest Australian-born chess player?

I'm looking forward to JGB's book for examples of the play of some of our legends. I'm really not that familiar with the games of most players prior to about 1980, excepting the 13-times Tasmanian champion Weber who was a threat to leading players of the day but somewhat erratic against them; I reckon he was borderline FM-IM strength by modern standards.

Although Cecil Purdy was born in Port Said, I believe he was always Australian and he would be hard to pass over as the strongest home grown player. After all he was World Correspondence Champion and a world figure in chess authorship. His is a classic case of a player who was intrinsically far stronger than his actual cross board play would suggest though that was pretty good. Also he hardly ever played outside Australia. I think his match with Manuel Aarons in India was one of the few times he did. I can't think of any other unless you count Tasmania as overseas :hmm:



DJ


Phil Bourke
30-03-2007, 09:24 PM
Dennis,
Purdy did venture to NZ on a few occasions, and as far as I recall, NZ is overseas. :) I think he may have won a NZ Ch or two on those trips.

Basil
30-03-2007, 09:26 PM
His is a classic case of a player who was intrinsically far stronger than his actual cross board play would suggest ...

Denis, would you amplify this concept please.

Denis_Jessop
02-04-2007, 09:33 PM
Denis, would you amplify this concept please.

First, I'll correct a couple of errors. On further reading, I find that Cecil actually played in the NZ Championship six times, winning twice. He also played in the Australian team at the Siegen Olympiad in 1970 and was non-playing team captain at Nice in 1974 where he received an invitation to play in an international masters tournament in Biel, which he did. But by this time he was quite old (68). He also won the Australian Championship four times.

Regarding my comment, I think that, had he had world class competition in his younger days, which he didn't, he may well have been much stronger over the board. His ability and knowledge are exemplified by his correspondence chess and his writings. Also I seem to remember his having said he had a tendency to blunder which he put down to having learnt the game relatively late (I think I read this in Chess World many years ago and I wouldn't know quite where to find it now). But I suspect that he may also have suffered from nerves which, from my own experience, I can say detracts from one's performance.

DJ

Phil Bourke
02-04-2007, 09:50 PM
No argument from here Dennis. CJ Purdy deserves all the recognition that he gets.

Oepty
04-04-2007, 05:22 PM
Kevin. I would put forward Henry Charlick the second Australian Champion as being extremely strong, although I don't definitely he was in Australia. In Bill Anderson-Smith's SA games database it shows a match or perhaps part of a match against Joseph Blackburne. I will post the full details in a couple days.
Scott

The match (or part there of) between Charlick and Blackburne ended 3.5-1.5 in favour of Blackburne, but Blackburne was white in 4 of the 5 games. Charlick's win was in only 15 moves. Chessmetrics has Blackburne as the world number two at the time of the match, although that may not be totally reliable.

Scott

Ian Rout
05-04-2007, 02:43 PM
First, I'll correct a couple of errors. On further reading, I find that Cecil actually played in the NZ Championship six times, winning twice. He also played in the Australian team at the Siegen Olympiad in 1970 and was non-playing team captain at Nice in 1974 where he received an invitation to play in an international masters tournament in Biel, which he did. But by this time he was quite old (68). He also won the Australian Championship four times.
Just a minor correction to the correction. Purdy was the de facto non-playing captain in Nice but there were only five other players in the team and Purdy was listed as the sixth. With one round to play Australia had won its section (the Olympiad wasn't a single mass Swiss in those days) so Purdy in fact played in the last round, and won.

The table, though not the background, can be found at

http://www.olimpbase.org/1974/1974aus.html

Capablanca-Fan
05-04-2007, 04:41 PM
It would be interesting to know roughly how many Australian players of the past, and which ones, would have been great enough to qualify for the GM title had the GM title been as obtainable then as now. I get the feeling that if you go back several decades, the "masters" of that age would all be grandmasters now.

Arinbj๖rn Gudmundsson, a native of Iceland and an opponent of Fischer in his famous My 60 Memorable Games, now frequents the Logan City Chess Club. He is scathing about the devaluation of titles, contrasting the "Old GM" and the "New GM" as being much different. He points out that back in the 50s and 60s, only a couple of new GM titles were awarded, and the awardees were world class. Indeed, one objection of his is that they were very slow in awarding the title to his compatriot Fridrik Olaffson (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=22955), although he was one of the best players in the world. He finally achieved it by qualifying for the Candidates, which decided the world championship challenger. Fischer gained his GM in the same tournament, which is more meritorious than most of those who broke his youngest GM record.

Similarly, when Pillsbury played a blindfold simul against the Hauptturnier contestants and managed to win some, that was a huge achievement because the winner would be recognised as a "master". And in that time, this meant one of the world's best players. Tsar Nicholas II awarded the original grandmaster titles to the five finalists of St Petersburg 1914.

Capablanca-Fan
05-04-2007, 05:04 PM
Dennis,
Purdy did venture to NZ on a few occasions, and as far as I recall, NZ is overseas. :) I think he may have won a NZ Ch or two on those trips.

Similarly, NZ's Estonian-born Ortvin Sarapu (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=23652) won the 1957 Australian champs, beating Koshnitzky (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1321915). Sarapu and Purdy drew a great match in 1952 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?pid=23652&pid2=31309). Even much later, Sarapu beat people like Guy West (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1282699), Alex Wohl (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1316542), Nick Speck (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1321925) and Andrew Allen (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1321924).

AlexDavies
09-05-2007, 02:55 PM
What are you trying to say? That link has little to do with this topic, well as far as I could be bothered reading. I will give you some time to edit or delete your post so it fits in with the topic, otherwise it will be deleted as spam.

Bela Berger (who qualified for the Interzonal) was the strongest Australian player not already mentioned who came to mind, so I found the most informative link about him and posted it. As Watto pointed out, Berger has some games at chessgames.com, but there isn't much meat there, and I thought that Peter Parr's tidbits were more interesting.

ER
09-05-2007, 05:06 PM
I think in order to establish who are the best modern Aussie players we must think of their performances in the Olympiads and/or international tournaments they have participated, taking under consideration their and their opponents strength.
I still believe that Aleksandar Wohl has to be included at least in the five best ever Australian Chess players.
Cheers and good luck!

PS This is one of my favourite threads in the forum! :clap:
Cheers and good luck!

FM_Bill
16-04-2008, 02:18 PM
I would like to mention Jamieson who dominated Australian chess from 1974 to 1979. In one olympiad where he had a 2650+ performance rating (and there has been significant inflationsince) he tied for a board prize with Kasparov.

Also I think there is a big difference between greatest player within Australia and playing os.

Chessie1000
22-06-2009, 10:58 AM
It has to be esling!

Chessie1000
22-06-2009, 11:01 AM
What about non Australian players?

Bill Gletsos
22-06-2009, 01:16 PM
What about non Australian players?They would be off topic to this thread.

Thunderspirit
23-06-2009, 08:01 PM
A couple of points. I did skim some of the posts, so apologies if I've missed something.

First on Peter's question on where did it state that Fred's chess was 'misunderstood.' This is from Cathy Chua's 'Australian Chess at the Top'. Sadly I don't have a copy to quote which page.

On Browne, he is an American, not an Australian. Just because you are born in a zoo, it does not make you a monkey.

I'm a big believer in credit where due and I must pay respect to James Bonning, who had IM John Paul Wallace in his list of players. While 'JP' isn't the greatest of all time, he has fallen out of favour somewhat in Australian chess, which I personally think is very unfair. He is the only junior to win the Australian Championship. He was also second on ACF ratings when he stopped playing. At the time he was clearly Australia's strongest IM. There was no contest.

I don't think there is one great that stands above the rest. State of Origin in Rugby League has four immortals. Meninga and Lewis for QLD and Sterling and Kenny for the Blues. For me the four greatest are Purdy and Kosh (of yester-year) and Ian and Darryl for today. Tomorrow is hard of course to tell, but of course Zong-Yuan, George and David are obvious.

One apsect of this discussion that has been lost as it hasn't discussed Women's chess. For me two players in partiulcar stand out.

The first is Irina. For the last decade she has been the rock in the Aussie team. Board one is always hard but she has always fought with pride and heart.

The other (and yes I'm biased is Laura). She was the first great sucess story of ACT Junior Chess and a true talent (allbiet a little lazy). Laura is still the greatest Women's player to have all of their chess education in Australia. She is also a fighter with heart and spirit. Laura is the 'Solo' of women's chess.

For those who may think this last statement is prejudiced it isn't. Australia has been very lucky to have players like Irina, Ngan, Ingela and in recent time Arrianne but Australia didn't nuture their development when young. Arrianne did spent some time as a junior in Australia but he chess was learnt mainly in the Phillipines. She played very well at the last Olympiad, again all credit due.

Denis_Jessop
23-06-2009, 09:28 PM
A couple of points. I did skim some of the posts, so apologies if I've missed something.

First on Peter's question on where did it state that Fred's chess was 'misunderstood.' This is from Cathy Chua's 'Australian Chess at the Top'. Sadly I don't have a copy to quote which page.

On Browne, he is an American, not an Australian. Just because you are born in a zoo, it does not make you a monkey.

I'm a big believer in credit where due and I must pay respect to James Bonning, who had IM John Paul Wallace in his list of players. While 'JP' isn't the greatest of all time, he has fallen out of favour somewhat in Australian chess, which I personally think is very unfair. He is the only junior to win the Australian Championship. He was also second on ACF ratings when he stopped playing. At the time he was clearly Australia's strongest IM. There was no contest.

I don't think there is one great that stands above the rest. State of Origin in Rugby League has four immortals. Meninga and Lewis for QLD and Sterling and Kenny for the Blues. For me the four greatest are Purdy and Kosh (of yester-year) and Ian and Darryl for today. Tomorrow is hard of course to tell, but of course Zong-Yuan, George and David are obvious.

One apsect of this discussion that has been lost as it hasn't discussed Women's chess. For me two players in partiulcar stand out.

The first is Irina. For the last decade she has been the rock in the Aussie team. Board one is always hard but she has always fought with pride and heart.

The other (and yes I'm biased is Laura). She was the first great sucess story of ACT Junior Chess and a true talent (allbiet a little lazy). Laura is still the greatest Women's player to have all of their chess education in Australia. She is also a fighter with heart and spirit. Laura is the 'Solo' of women's chess.

For those who may think this last statement is prejudiced it isn't. Australia has been very lucky to have players like Irina, Ngan, Ingela and in recent time Arrianne but Australia didn't nuture their development when young. Arrianne did spent some time as a junior in Australia but he chess was learnt mainly in the Phillipines. She played very well at the last Olympiad, again all credit due.

A few minor comments:

1. I have had a look at Cathy Chua's "Australian Chess at the Top" and I can't find any reference to Fred Flatow's chess being "misunderstood" or any comment of a like kind. The comment is rather odd - just what did it mean? That is, in what way was it said to have been misunderstood?

2. John-Paul Wallace did not stop playing chess. He went overseas, first to Norway and then to the UK. His current FIDE rating is 2398 but he hasn't played a FIDE-rated game since July 2007. If he has fallen out of favour, though I don't think he has, it's because he hasn't lived in Australia for a number of years and so is virtually unknown to many of the younger players.

3. J-P W's achievement depends on your definition of "Junior". If you use the FIDE definition of u20, John Purdy would have been a junior when he won in 1955. The Championship was held in Perth from December 28, 1954 to Jan. 8, 1955. JSP was born in 1935 and so was u20 on 1/1/54.

4. If we are including migrants as well as Australian-born players there are clearly two that stand out. First Lajos Steiner and secondly Ian Rogers. Cecil Purdy is close behind especially for his World CC win and his writings.

5. Women's chess is more difficult. I don't think one can discount Arianne. She has always been an Australian citizen and her early chess development was in Queensland though she left Australia for a while to further her chess education, so I understand, a matter that was commented on by Graeme Gardiner at the time. She now seems to be our strongest player. The pity here is that so many of the top women are inactive, for example Sorokina and Nutu-Gajic to mention just two who come readily to mind. Some of them don't even emerge in an Olympiad year. In that respect Laura is great as she is very active both as a player and an administrator.

6. A perhaps irrelevant observation about ACF ratings when comparing players. Over the last 28 years or so there have been 325 free points given to players. It may be a sobering thought to, for example, today's 1800 players to realise that their rating would have been only 1475 in the early 1980s :)

DJ

Thunderspirit
23-06-2009, 09:33 PM
A few minor comments:

1. I have had a look at Cathy Chua's "Australian Chess at the Top" and I can't find any reference to Fred Flatow's chess being "misunderstood" or any comment of a like kind. The comment is rather odd - just what did it mean? That is, in what way was it said to have been misunderstood?

2. John-Paul Wallace did not stop playing chess. He went overseas, first to Norway and then to the UK. His current FIDE rating is 2398 but he hasn't played a FIDE-rated game since July 2007. If he has fallen out of favour, though I don't think he has, it's because he hasn't lived in Australia for a number of years and so is virtually unknown to many of the younger players.

3. J-P W's achievement depends on your definition of "Junior". If you use the FIDE definition of u20, John Purdy would have been a junior when he won in 1955. The Championship was held in Perth from December 28, 1954 to Jan. 8, 1955. JSP was born in 1935 and so was u20 on 1/1/54.

4. If we are including migrants as well as Australian-born players there are clearly two that stand out. First Lajos Steiner and secondly Ian Rogers. Cecil Purdy is close behind especially for his World CC win and his writings.

5. Women's chess is more difficult. I don't think one can discount Arianne. She has always been an Australian citizen and her early chess development was in Queensland though she left Australia for a while to further her chess education, so I understand, a matter that was commented on by Graeme Gardiner at the time. She now seems to be our strongest player. The pity here is that so many of the top women are inactive, for example Sorokina and Nutu-Gajic to mention just two who come readily to mind. Some of them don't even emerge in an Olympiad year. In that respect Laura is great as she is very active both as a player and an administrator.

6. A perhaps irrelevant observation about ACF ratings when comparing players. Over the last 28 years or so there have been 325 free points given to players. It may be a sobering thought to, for example, today's 1800 players to realise that their rating would have been only 1475 in the early 1980s :)

DJ

1. Dennis I can assure you the misunderstood quote comes from 'Australian Chess at the Top.

2. JP plays rarely, it's not quite 'retirement' but pretty close.

Denis_Jessop
24-06-2009, 08:59 PM
1. Dennis I can assure you the misunderstood quote comes from 'Australian Chess at the Top.

2. JP plays rarely, it's not quite 'retirement' but pretty close.

Thanks, Lee.

Re 1. I've had another look at the book and such a mention does exist though it is not in any reference in the index. It appears in a caption to a photo of Flatow on some unnumbered pages betwen pp108 and 109. The caption relevantly is:

"When invited to write about Flatow for this book, Doug Hamilton greatly regretted not having the time to do it. He felt that Flatow's chess was misunderstood."

I still maintain that that comment alone is not much help as it gives no indication how or why what it alleges is so and there is no clue in the book anywhere else. I wonder what Doug had in mind and what significance it had for the propoer understanding of Flatow's chess. I've not heard any other comment to that effect over the years.

On 2. J-P had a burst of activity in 2006-7 after, if I remember rightly, he failed to gain selection for the 2005 Olympiad team. He then had recently moved to the UK and I had some correspondence with him as ACF President. As far as I know he hasn't applied for the team since though I'm not sure of that. Not all that long before that he had done some junior coaching in Canberra for the ACTJCL along with Ian Rogers and Darryl Johansen.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
24-06-2009, 10:17 PM
J-P W applied for the Olympiad in 2004 and was ranked first reserve. He appealed and his appeal was dismissed.

He again applied for the Olympiad in 2006, and was ranked second reserve which became first reserve when GM Johansen withdrew.

He sent me a very good suggestion about expanding the 20 games rule to include games played under systems other than ACF or FIDE (eg if someone played games in the BCF system those should count as well) and that was eventually adopted. However he didn't apply in 2008.

antichrist
25-06-2009, 11:23 AM
Thanks, Lee.

Re 1. I've had another look at the book and such a mention does exist though it is not in any reference in the index. It appears in a caption to a photo of Flatow on some unnumbered pages betwen pp108 and 109. The caption relevantly is:

"When invited to write about Flatow for this book, Doug Hamilton greatly regretted not having the time to do it. He felt that Flatow's chess was misunderstood."

I still maintain that that comment alone is not much help as it gives no indication how or why what it alleges is so and there is no clue in the book anywhere else. I wonder what Doug had in mind and what significance it had for the propoer understanding of Flatow's chess. I've not heard any other comment to that effect over the years.

....DJ
Is Doug Hamilton around the traps somewhere so we can ask him? I can ask Fred directly shortly and see what he comes up with.

Denis_Jessop
25-06-2009, 05:16 PM
Is Doug Hamilton around the traps somewhere so we can ask him? I can ask Fred directly shortly and see what he comes up with.

Doug still plays regularly in Melbourne as far as I know. He has also played in some ACF events in recent years.

DJ

Denis_Jessop
25-06-2009, 05:19 PM
J-P W applied for the Olympiad in 2004 and was ranked first reserve. He appealed and his appeal was dismissed.

He again applied for the Olympiad in 2006, and was ranked second reserve which became first reserve when GM Johansen withdrew.

He sent me a very good suggestion about expanding the 20 games rule to include games played under systems other than ACF or FIDE (eg if someone played games in the BCF system those should count as well) and that was eventually adopted. However he didn't apply in 2008.

Thanks for the additional info Kevin. I wasn't sure about selections for the 2007 Olympiad but that explains his activity in 2006/7 after the ACF introduced the activity criteria.

DJ

Santa
11-01-2010, 08:15 PM
Who are Australia's greatest ever chess players?
Scott

I would distinguish between "best" and "greatest", as others have not.

I would rank CJS Purdy as greater that the rest because....

He's Australia's first World Champion
he won every Correspondence tournament he entered. It wasn't many, I grant you, but they were the strongest available to him.
H้'s Australia's pre-eminent Teacher upon whose shoulders Australians for decades have stood to get their chance.

Jamieson is the first Australian to achieve a GM norm. I have this from himself, and he should know!

Nobody's mentioned it, but Rogers has been ranked in the top 100.

Something that's had me puzzled for years, is who taught Johansen, West, Jordan, Hjorth and Rogers their chess? Rogers was at Heidelberg, the others at Waverley.

jammo
14-01-2010, 06:06 PM
Hi Santa,

I think that I agree with you. C.J.S.Purdy was my hero when I was young and I even got to play him once!

On the question of who taught Rogers etc their chess (you could add Solo to this list), perhaps we can use our chess powers of deduction to work it out.

The first question is did anyone "teach" them as in those days I don't think they had chess coaches like everyone has today. They may have taught themselves, just as I did. No-one ever coached me. I learnt from chess books and playing chess.

If they did have a coach/mentor then he must have been a Victorian as they all lived in Melbourne. I guess he must have also been a strong player. Who were the leading players in Melbourne at that time? Hamilton, Ozols, Hanks and Woodhams spring to mind. I don't remember any of them doing any coaching though.

You said that 4 of these players went to Waverley Chess Club. Perhaps then someone who was running the Waverley CC at the time could help us?

What we need is some old guy who was around at the time to advise us.
Perhaps one of the Canterbury CC guys will read this and let us know.

Hope my comments have been of interest.

Regards,
Jammo

Santa
17-01-2010, 12:07 AM
Hi Santa,

I think that I agree with you. C.J.S.Purdy was my hero when I was young and I even got to play him once!

On the question of who taught Rogers etc their chess (you could add Solo to this list), perhaps we can use our chess powers of deduction to work it out.

The first question is did anyone "teach" them as in those days I don't think they had chess coaches like everyone has today. They may have taught themselves, just as I did. No-one ever coached me. I learnt from chess books and playing chess.

If they did have a coach/mentor then he must have been a Victorian as they all lived in Melbourne. I guess he must have also been a strong player. Who were the leading players in Melbourne at that time? Hamilton, Ozols, Hanks and Woodhams spring to mind. I don't remember any of them doing any coaching though.

You said that 4 of these players went to Waverley Chess Club. Perhaps then someone who was running the Waverley CC at the time could help us?

Jammo

I should have included Solo, and had I taken more than a few seconds I would have done so.

Somebody had to get those players started, a group of strong players doesn't often just emerge. Nobody goes from learning the moves to FIDE-titled player without some help.

A name that has sprung to my mind is Tony Wright. Rated a little over 2000 when I met him, he was probably strong enough to give them a good start, and if not good enough to teach to masterly levels, should have be able teach them how to develop. And he was associated with Waverley whilst I only knew of the others as being associated with MCC.

Ha! I've played someone who's played CJS Purdy! Did you do better than I?

Denis_Jessop
17-01-2010, 11:41 AM
I should have included Solo, and had I taken more than a few seconds I would have done so.

Somebody had to get those players started, a group of strong players doesn't often just emerge. Nobody goes from learning the moves to FIDE-titled player without some help.

A name that has sprung to my mind is Tony Wright. Rated a little over 2000 when I met him, he was probably strong enough to give them a good start, and if not good enough to teach to masterly levels, should have be able teach them how to develop. And he was associated with Waverley whilst I only knew of the others as being associated with MCC.

Ha! I've played someone who's played CJS Purdy! Did you do better than I?

Back in those days, as I remember them, coaching was almost unknown except in a few cases in the big cities. In Canberra there were only about 3 active juniors. Like most people I was taught the moves by my father and took it myself from there which is just one of the reasons why I never was better than a good club player. There was also a paucity of information in English. If I recall correctly, Doug Hamilton, who I knew slightly, (and no doubt others) subscribed to Soviet publications to get the latest opening wrinkles and other things. I don't know of his being coached. But then who coached Alekhine, Capablanca et al.? Organised professional coaching in Australia as we now know it is a phenomenon of the last 20 years or so. We were lucky enough to have Cecil Purdy's theoretical articles etc in Chess World as a guide. The general lack of coaching may also explain why all the great players (and some others) concentrated on writing general books on chess.

DJ

PS I played in simuls in Canberra as a junior against Lajos Steiner, Goldstein (2) and John Purdy, who is the same age as I am and had just won the Aus Junior title. In my Melbourne days I just watched, eg the Hamilton - CJS Purdy match for the Australian title, and played club chess.

Santa
18-01-2010, 12:16 AM
Back in those days, as I remember them, coaching was almost unknown except in a few cases in the big cities. In Canberra there were only about 3 active juniors. Like most people I was taught the moves by my father and took it myself from there which is just one of the reasons why I never was better than a good club player. There was also a paucity of information in English. If I recall correctly, Doug Hamilton, who I knew slightly, (and no doubt others) subscribed to Soviet publications to get the latest opening wrinkles and other things. I don't know of his being coached. But then who coached Alekhine, Capablanca et al.? Organised professional coaching in Australia as we now know it is a phenomenon of the last 20 years or so. We were lucky enough to have Cecil Purdy's theoretical articles etc in Chess World as a guide. The general lack of coaching may also explain why all the great players (and some others) concentrated on writing general books on chess.

DJ

PS I played in simuls in Canberra as a junior against Lajos Steiner, Goldstein (2) and John Purdy, who is the same age as I am and had just won the Aus Junior title. In my Melbourne days I just watched, eg the Hamilton - CJS Purdy match for the Australian title, and played club chess.

I think you mean more by "coaching" than I do. when I ran junior chess clubs, the kids played lightning, transfer, suicide, solved simple puzzles and I gave lessons.

By no means did I have as good an understanding of chess as professional coaches have, but the kids had fun and they had a senior club to go to. And they learned to get their pieces out early, that an attack against the opponent's KB pawn was a worthy objective, the could often spot a mate in one, and if things got down to K+R vs K they could win it if they were the lucky player with the extra rook..

It was enough that they could expect to win a game or two in a tournament against the seniors, and mostly they did. Players like Arthur Goudy and Heinz Gross dreaded them.

I've been playing a bit at a Seniors Cits centre, and some of the players there can't checkmate as well, and 1 h4 isn't unknown.

As black I regularly fianchetto my KB, and a few times I've taken the rook in the other corner, and once White was so shocked he didn't capture the bishop.

antichrist
12-06-2010, 01:40 AM
According to the ACF website, he has won the Australian Championship once (1970) and the Australian Open not at all. Chess World ceased publication in 1967.

DJ

He also won a few Doberls

Sheroff
28-06-2010, 05:17 PM
One player who has escaped the praises of this thread is David Smerdon, who, while still in the relatively early stages of what I hope will be a long and illustrious career in chess, must easily rank as one of the greatest of all Aussie chess players, past or present. I believe that as a pure calculator of variations and a preparer of openings for individual opponents, he is unmatched.

There is perhaps merit in describing the relative strengths of various players too - Alan Goldsmith could tactically bamboozle anyone in the country on his day, while (and this is only my personal view) I would consider Bill Jordan and Darryl Johansen to be excellent endgame/positional players, but with some room for improvement as tacticians. I have even heard some people describe Darryl as 'strong IM standard' rather than 'GM standard', despite his title. Solo is as good as Rogers in the endings (which is saying something). As a good all-rounder, I'm a big fan of Guy West's skills.

Greg Hjorth is a unique chess genius - as evidenced by his astonishing win over Johansen (which features in Australian Chess Brilliancies). And speaking of Serge Rubinraut, one of his amazing games is in there too - a classy player indeed.

When I was a young player growing up in 1970s California, we definitely considered GM Browne 100% yank...:owned:

Cheers
Kevin Casey

Agent Smith
15-07-2011, 05:38 PM
I guess i know nothing about australian chess history, but Rogers was certainly a top player, isn't afraid to voice his opinions on the crooked Fide president, and is a great speaker and journalist. So by these metrics - +1 Ian.

My hunch is he was also our strongest too. Modern sport events are much more competitive than previously. ...
In my db i have Kasparov 4 - Rogers 0. Did Ian ever beat him ?

antichrist
15-07-2011, 06:40 PM
I guess i know nothing about australian chess history, but Rogers was certainly a top player, isn't afraid to voice his opinions on the crooked Fide president, and is a great speaker and journalist. So by these metrics - +1 Ian.

My hunch is he was also our strongest too. Modern sport events are much more competitive than previously. ...
In my db i have Kasparov 4 - Rogers 0. Did Ian ever beat him ?

I doubt Ian ever played him. And am sure he never defeated him whilst he was champ. The closest anyone in this region defeating any champ was Torre from Philippines

Garrett
15-07-2011, 06:47 PM
I doubt Ian ever played him.

Did you even finish reading post #93 before you started dribbling shit ?

There are 3 games in my database.

antichrist
15-07-2011, 06:59 PM
Did you even finish reading post #93 before you started dribbling shit ?

There are 3 games in my database.

You have a point there, but not necessary for me to consult any database, I certainly would have heard of it. Torre defeated Karpov I think it was. check that out on yorr database

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1041314

Kevin Bonham
15-07-2011, 08:27 PM
You have a point there, but not necessary for me to consult any database, I certainly would have heard of it.

The problem is that you said "I doubt Ian ever played him" although the post you were replying to clearly indicated Ian did play him.

There is a Wikipedia list of Kasparov-beaters here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_beaten_Garry_Kasparov_in_c hess). Can't vouch for its completeness but suspect that if Ian had beaten him he would be there - and yes, even you would know about it.

antichrist
15-07-2011, 11:13 PM
I noticed on that list that Spassky is level pegging with Kasparov, probably in Kasparov's earlier years. At time of Fisher Spassky tussle we were all barracking for Fisher and believing he could do no wrong whereas we learn afterwards it may have been him doing the dirty tricks.

Been following international chess now for 45 years. Jumbled up it may be.

Agent Smith
15-07-2011, 11:24 PM
In the 1989 Groningen tourney , Ian got a good result, winning the thing ahead of Anand.
[Hmmm... i try to paste the crosstable, but preview post fails. So have attached a screenshot (i hope)]

And in my DBs, Murray Chandler has beaten Kasparov twice. Once when K. was a teen and then 9 years later in this game. Chandler's King goes awol very early in the game, but he manages a win!

[Event "?"]
[Site "Hamburg"]
[Date "1985.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Chandler, M."]
[Black "Kasparov Garry"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.e5 Nd5 8.Ne4
Qc7 9.f4 Qb6 10.c4 Bb4+ 11.Ke2 f5 12.Nf2 Ba6 13.Kf3 Ne7 14.Be3 Bc5 15.Bxc5
Qxc5 16.Qd6 Qb6 17.b3 c5 18.Rd1 Bb7+ 19.Ke3 Kf7 20.Qxb6 axb6 21.Rxd7 Bc6
22.Rd2 g5 23.Nh3 h6 24.fxg5 Ng6 25.gxh6 Nxe5 26.Be2 Rxh6 27.Nf4 Rg8 28.h3
Ke7 29.Rhd1 Ng6 30.Bf3 Bxf3 31.Kxf3 Nxf4 32.Kxf4 Rhg6 33.Ke5 1-0

Hobbes
15-07-2011, 11:34 PM
The screenshot has the players ages at the time (Rogers 29, Anand 20)

Edit: (was replying to a deleted AC post)

Kevin Bonham
15-07-2011, 11:41 PM
The second Chandler win against Kasparov was a clock "super simul" where Kasparov played eight strong opponents. It was the first such simul that Kasparov played and apparently the only one where Kasparov was outscored by his opponents. There is an article about these simuls here:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1016404

Agent Smith
15-07-2011, 11:43 PM
The screenshot has the players ages at the time (Rogers 29, Anand 20)

Yeah... Anand *was* young.

I've got a negative age too... should probably fix that ;>

Agent Smith
15-07-2011, 11:50 PM
The second Chandler win against Kasparov was a clock "super simul" where Kasparov played eight strong opponents.
Oh, ok. Garry *was* a champion.. I heard Ian speak about facing him across the board, and Kasparov's aggressive presence. I kind of get the impression Carlsen has a similar trait.

In his first loss to Chandler, they were only 13 and 16 years respectively i think. So not proper victories perhaps.

Metro
16-07-2011, 12:21 AM
Oh, ok. Garry *was* a champion.. I heard Ian speak about facing him across the board, and Kasparov's aggressive presence. I kind of get the impression Carlsen has a similar trait.

Rogers said he felt that GK literally wanted to kill him.I doubt Carlsen has this presence.

ER
16-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Ivanchuk and Magnus before the battle! Hardly any Wiking aggro! :P

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee481/jak_jak1/medias71b.jpg

Photo: Courtesy of Chessbase

antichrist
16-07-2011, 11:03 AM
Wins against players when they are not champions should not really count. It is like defeating Lloyd Fell in his last days - it did not mean much. It should not attribute to a country greatest player''s record

machomortensen
11-08-2011, 11:20 PM
A great and interesting thread.

jammo
25-12-2011, 10:17 PM
I think the strongest Australian player ever is between Steiner and Browne.
Steiner was probably ranked higher in the world but his best was before he became an Australian.

Browne was only an Australian from 1969-1973ish but was a very strong GM in 1973. He was probably stronger than Ian Rogers at his peak.

Cheers,
Jammo

chessonaleg
30-03-2012, 09:02 PM
So many players. So many memories. So much chess talent and achievement.

But there can only be two winners. So, let us announce the male and female winners of "Australia's greatest ever chess player".

First of all, this man makes Bush Tucker man look like an amateur. He lived in a tent in the Australian champs. He is controversial and always full of opinions that nobody else wants to hear. He is the one, the only...drum roll...

JOHNNY BOLENS.

Unfortunately he cannot be here tonight. He's somewhere in your neighborhood in a tent. In fact, look out your window right now and you could see this intrepid chess player of renown.

For the fairer sex, there were worthy contenders. Arianne. Laura. Ngan. But again there is one who stands out.

This lady's eyeware made her look like a KGB secret agent: huge, dark, wide spectacles. Perhaps in such clandestine pursuits she played casual games with Russians. For her 2100ish rating was not to be sneezed at. She is:

VERONICA KLIMENKO.

machomortensen
31-03-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm sorry but the joke about Johnny Bolens is beyond my horizon...

Agent Smith
31-03-2012, 09:46 PM
I think the strongest Australian player ever is between Steiner and Browne.
Steiner was probably ranked higher in the world but his best was before he became an Australian.

Browne was only an Australian from 1969-1973ish but was a very strong GM in 1973. He was probably stronger than Ian Rogers at his peak.
I don't know Browne, but every time i exam a game of Ian's - i think - this guy is the most attacking GM i've ever seen!

jammo
01-04-2012, 04:47 PM
I don't know Browne, but every time i exam a game of Ian's - i think - this guy is the most attacking GM i've ever seen!

Interesting graph but is it correct? Chessmetrics says Browne was 2678 in May 1982.

In any case when you adjust for rating inflation I think Browne is probably ahead.

Thanks,
Jammo

Agent Smith
02-04-2012, 06:46 PM
The graph is from the TWIC archives
Million Base 1.74
1.74 million quality chess games in PGN format. ... Updated and contributed by Ben van Vlierden with the the archives from TWIC.
This graph is from Dann Corbit's junkbase. There is one period in 1983 Browne rated 2635, though it vaguely appears to be a statistical anomaly