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View Full Version : Robert Isted rating discussion, sf Burnie Shines Weekender



Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 02:58 PM
No attempt to be devious (in case anyone thought otherwise)

I just forgot my login.No doubt like you forgot how to import players into Swiss Perfect events. :doh:

BTW are you going to submit the Robert Isted Memorial events for rating. If so can you send them ASAP to the TCA Ratings Officer.

PhilD707
23-11-2006, 06:26 PM
No doubt like you forgot how to import players into Swiss Perfect events. :doh:

BTW are you going to submit the Robert Isted Memorial events for rating. If so can you send them ASAP to the TCA Ratings Officer.

The results of the Robert Isted went in some time ago. I haven't heard anything from Nigel Frame so have presumed he's carrying on with it?

It's been some time since I imported players to an event and even then I have only done it on a few (two?) occasions. I was only ratings officer for a brief period in time. I have now passed on the ratings officer guidelines that I inherited to to Nigel. At short notice I was unable to find clear instructions on how to go about doing it again. I tried Brian Jones site and originally but could not find the tutorial that was supposed to be there. I tried again today and the entire page relating to the tutorial was blank?


I tried the ACF ratings page today and could see no obvious link to instructions. Within the download of ACFMAST.trn and ACFRAPID.trn I fould a very brief textfile named "Import readme.txt". The instructions in this textfile do not inform the reader how to import players into a Swiss Perfect file.

I would strongly suggest that as part of your responsibilty in your position as ratings officer that it is incumbent upon you to ensure that clear and adequate instruction on all rating matters is made available to the State Ratings Officers and that they in turn do the same with their Tournament Directors.
Currently this is not happening.

Lastly by pure coincidence, sensitive to the fact that it is a pain for other people to have to re-enter a tournament, I have been working up some documentation on the process myself today. I've done this for my own benefit but will probably post it in html on the web in due course in case anyone else happens to forget how to import players in to one of their tournaments.

Phil.

Kevin Bonham
23-11-2006, 06:33 PM
I tried Brian Jones site and originally but could not find the tutorial that was supposed to be there. I tried again today and the entire page relating to the tutorial was blank?

I just looked and found the Word document download link easily from http://www.chessaustralia.com.au/grandprix/index.cfm?p=section&a=organisers

and also found the tutorial at http://www.chessaustralia.com.au/media/main_grandprix_ratings.swf

working fine too.

The tutorial is an extremely useful feature of Brian's site. He directed me to it when I first submitted a manually entered SP file and I have found it very handy. Indeed having done it once I did not need to look it up again for subsequent uses.

PhilD707
23-11-2006, 07:36 PM
I just looked and found the Word document download link easily from http://www.chessaustralia.com.au/grandprix/index.cfm?p=section&a=organisers

and also found the tutorial at http://www.chessaustralia.com.au/media/main_grandprix_ratings.swf

working fine too.

The tutorial is an extremely useful feature of Brian's site. He directed me to it when I first submitted a manually entered SP file and I have found it very handy. Indeed having done it once I did not need to look it up again for subsequent uses.

Agreed.
I have just looked at it too and it seems to be a happening thing.
I came at it before from behind a Govt. proxy firewall and it didn't work.
Maybe some scripting was being blocked.
If so the web site owner should be made aware of it.
Other things to consider does it work on older browsers? What if the browser is blocking popups? etc.
Phil.

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 07:47 PM
The results of the Robert Isted went in some time ago.I wouldnt call less than a week sometime ago.

I haven't heard anything from Nigel Frame so have presumed he's carrying on with it?They arrived in the last few hours
It's been some time since I imported players to an event and even then I have only done it on a few (two?) occasions. I was only ratings officer for a brief period in time. I have now passed on the ratings officer guidelines that I inherited to to Nigel. At short notice I was unable to find clear instructions on how to go about doing it again.It isnt that difficult. I'm surprised you couldnt remember.

Then again on second thoughts I probably shouldnt be.:whistle:

I tried Brian Jones site and originally but could not find the tutorial that was supposed to be there. I tried again today and the entire page relating to the tutorial was blank?Must be a problem at your end as it works fine for me and that includes even from behind a secure firewall.

I tried the ACF ratings page today and could see no obvious link to instructions. Within the download of ACFMAST.trn and ACFRAPID.trn I fould a very brief textfile named "Import readme.txt". The instructions in this textfile do not inform the reader how to import players into a Swiss Perfect file.SP has builtin help that explains how to import players into tournaments. The "Import readme.txt" file simply explains how to setup the mapping for the ACF trn master file.

I would strongly suggest that as part of your responsibilty in your position as ratings officer that it is incumbent upon you to ensure that clear and adequate instruction on all rating matters is made available to the State Ratings Officers and that they in turn do the same with their Tournament Directors.
Currently this is not happening.As far as I am aware the State Rating Officers dont have issues importing players into SP.
If they have issues with any Arbiters/DOP's they havent mentioned it to me.

Lastly by pure coincidence, sensitive to the fact that it is a pain for other people to have to re-enter a tournament, I have been working up some documentation on the process myself today. I've done this for my own benefit but will probably post it in html on the web in due course in case anyone else happens to forget how to import players in to one of their tournaments.Hopefully their memory will be better than yours.

arosar
23-11-2006, 07:58 PM
Listen here Bill, your last post above is confrontational. Everybody can see this. Just calm down man. As for me, I'm too effing young to have a bloody hard blood pressure. I'm telling you, sometimes you just provoke people.

AR

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 08:09 PM
Listen here Bill, your last post above is confrontational.As far as I'm concerned Phil's post was confrontational.

Everybody can see this. Just calm down man.If I was any calmer, I'd be in deep mediatation.

As for me, I'm too effing young to have a bloody hard blood pressure. I'm telling you, sometimes you just provoke people.The post wasnt directed at you, you decided to buy into this.
As such if you want to keep your blood pressure low then mind your own business.

arosar
23-11-2006, 08:18 PM
The post wasnt directed at you, you decided to buy into this.
As such if you want to keep your blood pressure low then mind your own business.

Mate, tell that to Kevo everytime he tells fg7 off when that poor Mexican says he doesn't wanna talk to your mate.

I'm tell you cos it's for your own good. Consider it upward feedback mate.

AR

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 08:33 PM
Mate, tell that to Kevo everytime he tells fg7 off when that poor Mexican says he doesn't wanna talk to your mate.The situations are different as I simply told you to mind your own business for the sake of your blood prerssure.

I'm tell you cos it's for your own good. Consider it upward feedback mate. ;)

PhilD707
23-11-2006, 08:38 PM
I wouldnt call less than a week sometime ago.
They arrived in the last few hoursIt isnt that difficult. I'm surprised you couldnt remember.

Then again on second thoughts I probably shouldnt be.:whistle:
Must be a problem at your end as it works fine for me and that includes even from behind a secure firewall.
SP has builtin help that explains how to import players into tournaments. The "Import readme.txt" file simply explains how to setup the mapping for the ACF trn master file.
As far as I am aware the State Rating Officers dont have issues importing players into SP.
If they have issues with any Arbiters/DOP's they havent mentioned it to me.
Hopefully their memory will be better than yours.

Bill,
I'm going to ignore this incredible post.
Please delete it mate, go to bed, have a good night's sleep and come back tomorrrow with something more sane before too many people get to see this one.

Come back tomorrow and give me proper answer to the question
Why are you, as ACF ratings officer, not providing adequate documentation to facilitate the the import of tournament results into the ACF ratings system?
Sleep on it.

Phil.
PS Sorry my memory's not what it used to be.
I'm trying to work within my limitations.

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 08:43 PM
Phil,

Further to the Robert Isred events, I received the Trophy and the Reserves for rating.

Now I am aware that the crosstables for those include the results of the games played in the preliminaries.

However what about the results of games in the preliminaries between players that did not meet in the Trophy or the Reserves.

e.g. your results in the preliminaries against the 4 players that ended up in the Reserves.

They do not appear at all.

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 08:46 PM
Bill,
I'm going to ignore this incredible post.Your post got the response it deserved.

Please delete it mate, go to bed, have a good night's sleep and come back tomorrrow with something more sane before too many people get to see this one.

Come back tomorrow and give me proper answer to the question
Why are you, as ACF ratings officer, not providing adequate documentation to facilitate the the import of tournament results into the ACF ratings system?The only person seemingly having a problem is you.
I suggest you lift your game.

Sleep on it.Follow that advice yourself and perhaps you will get a clue.

PS Sorry my memory's not what it used to be.
I'm trying to work within my limitations.You need to work harder.

PhilD707
23-11-2006, 09:08 PM
Phil,

Further to the Robert Isred events, I received the Trophy and the Reserves for rating.

Now I am aware that the crosstables for those include the results of the games played in the preliminaries.

However what about the results of games in the preliminaries between players that did not meet in the Trophy or the Reserves.

e.g. your results in the preliminaries against the 4 players that ended up in the Reserves.

They do not appear at all.

Bill,
You should have had the results for games played in the preliminaries also.
I've no idea why the ratings officer did not forward them?
The Burnie Chess Club came up with an innovative way to run an event which involved a lot of entrants in a limited time.
I realise it was tricky/unusual for the Nigel but I did give a detailed explanation of the event to him with all the results that he needed in an Excel spreadsheet.
I made it very clear what games were up for rating.
As I said before I have had no communication back from Nigel so have had no reason to believe that he was on top of it.
Phil.

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 09:16 PM
Bill,
You should have had the results for games played in the preliminaries also.
I've no idea why the ratings officer did not forward them?
The Burnie Chess Club came up with an innovative way to run an event which involved a lot of entrants in a limited time.
I realise it was tricky/unusual for the Nigel but I did give a detailed explanation of the event to him with all the results that he needed in an Excel spreadsheet.Why didnt you submit it properly as 4 sets of SP files.

I made it very clear what games were up for rating.I've seen your email and I wouldnt describe it that way.

As I said before I have had no communication back from Nigel so have had no reason to believe that he was on top of it.
Phil.Then I suggest if you want the full event rated you take it up with Nigel and get it sorted out ASAP.

P.S. What was the date of the final rounds of the 4 preliminaries and the Trophy/Reserves.

PhilD707
23-11-2006, 10:10 PM
Why didnt you submit it properly as 4 sets of SP files.
I've seen your email and I wouldnt describe it that way.
Then I suggest if you want the full event rated you take it up with Nigel and get it sorted out ASAP.

P.S. What was the date of the final rounds of the 4 preliminaries and the Trophy/Reserves.

Bill,
I have to say I am totally gobsmacked by your response on this.
The Burnie Chess Club has been submitting events in Excel spreadsheet format for rating since 2000. That is to say, since I have been the Tournament Director.
The Tas. ratings Officer has always accepted these events in this format and they have always been duly rated and we have always paid the ratings fee.
I believe that the BCC has paid the ratings fee for the Robert Isted already.
Your post to me on a public bulletin board is the first indication to me that the national ratings Officer feels the BCC is not in fact submitting its tournament results "properly".

I had no prior knowledge of this and I repeat that I have had no communication whatsoever from the Tas. ratings officer.

While I appreciate that you feel animosity towards me I would ask you not to penalise the BCC in an effort to settle a score with me.

Have you communicated with your Tas Ratings Officer?
If so what does he have to say?

Ultimately I would strongly suggest that the ChessChat forum is the very last place where we should be discussing particular Tas. state ratings admin issues.

Please talk to your state ratings officer and tell him what your concerns are.
He is empowered to ask the clubs in his state to respond to these concerns.
I am positive that the BCC will do its utmost to facilitate the ratings process and do what we can to support Nigel in his role as State Ratings Officer.

Phil.

Bill Gletsos
23-11-2006, 10:31 PM
Bill,
I have to say I am totally gobsmacked by your response on this.
The Burnie Chess Club has been submitting events in Excel spreadsheet format for rating since 2000. That is to say, since I have been the Tournament Director.
The Tas. ratings Officer has always accepted these events in this format and they have always been duly rated and we have always paid the ratings fee.No doubt because the TCA Ratings Offcier was a nice guy.

I believe that the BCC has paid the ratings fee for the Robert Isted already.
Your post to me on a public bulletin board is the first indication to me that the national ratings Officer feels the BCC is not in fact submitting its tournament results "properly".Why do you think we publically publish ACF SP master files on the ACF website for importing into SP.
It certainly isnt for the benefit of the State Rating Officers who I email the files to directly.
It is for the use by Arbiters and DOP's.

I had no prior knowledge of this and I repeat that I have had no communication whatsoever from the Tas. ratings officer.No doubt because the TAS Ratings occicer was a nice guy even though you were wasting his time.

While I appreciate that you feel animosity towards me I would ask you not to penalise the BCC in an effort to settle a score with me.I dont have any anomosity towards you, I just think you are clueless and I'm certainly not going to penalise BHCC for any of your shortcomings.
It is however all quite simple.
I'm telling you the organiser what I received from your State Ratings Officer.
If that is incorrect then you need to take it up with your State Ratings Officer.

Have you communicated with your Tas Ratings Officer?
If so what does he have to say?I have spoken to him.
If what I have is incorrect then you need to take it up with your State Ratings Officer.

Ultimately I would strongly suggest that the ChessChat forum is the very last place where we should be discussing particular Tas. state ratings admin issues.You seem to be the only person having problems submitting events for rating.

Your excel Spreadsheet for the Burnie Club Championship was a mess as well.


Please talk to your state ratings officer and tell him what your concerns are.He is aware of my opinion.
I already told him its a complete joke that you are not submitting events in SP.

He is empowered to ask the clubs in his state to respond to these concerns.
I am positive that the BCC will do its utmost to facilitate the ratings process and do what we can to support Nigel in his role as State Ratings Officer.I think I'll just raise the issue with the TCA ACF delegate.

Kevin Bonham
23-11-2006, 11:07 PM
Bill,
I have to say I am totally gobsmacked by your response on this.
The Burnie Chess Club has been submitting events in Excel spreadsheet format for rating since 2000. That is to say, since I have been the Tournament Director.
The Tas. ratings Officer has always accepted these events in this format and they have always been duly rated and we have always paid the ratings fee.

The TCA Ratings Officer immediately prior to your extremely brief tenure, David Christian, was retired, and as such had sufficient time to manually convert events from spreadsheets into coded SP form. As I have now started converting crosstables myself I appreciate how much effort he put into it and would not take for granted that anyone should have the sort of time to do that for several tournaments at once.


I believe that the BCC has paid the ratings fee for the Robert Isted already.

I have a vague idea that the TCA Treasurer has not as yet received it, although I try not to talk to that person too often; maybe you should check with him? :lol:

(It may well be in the mail; it does not seem like anyone in Tas is slow about paying their due fees.)


While I appreciate that you feel animosity towards me I would ask you not to penalise the BCC in an effort to settle a score with me.

Yet you were quite happy to potentially penalise other entrants who might have wanted to report on an event in order to attempt to maintain an already losing score against me. :D

Garvinator
23-11-2006, 11:32 PM
I think I'll just raise the issue with the TCA ACF delegate.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :whistle:

WhiteElephant
24-11-2006, 07:36 AM
Can I ask a question - apologies if it is ignorant and has already been discussed - I have only skimmed the majority of the posts on this thread. Why are Burnie events submitted in Excel Spreadsheets (and from the sounds of Kevin's post, other Tas tournaments as well)?

Is this because SP isn't used for pairings in Tas? What is the reason for this decision?

Ian Rout
24-11-2006, 09:15 AM
I would strongly suggest that as part of your responsibilty in your position as ratings officer that it is incumbent upon you to ensure that clear and adequate instruction on all rating matters is made available to the State Ratings Officers and that they in turn do the same with their Tournament Directors.
Currently this is not happening.

If anyone is unable to find documentation in their own back yard they might want to check the ACT's page which apart from obvious local elements is largely applicable everywhere:

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/ratings/

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 10:00 AM
If anyone is unable to find documentation in their own back yard they might want to check the ACT's page which apart from obvious local elements is largely applicable everywhere:

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/ratings/

Thanks Ian,
(and its good to see that Captain Kirk is still playing chess in the ACT :) )
It seems that there are a few documents and/or tools around to help with this.
In my view though really the authorative source for doco relating to ratings should be located on the ACF ratings site.
It is surely the ACF ratings officer's responsibility to provide and maintain this information?

Ian Rout
24-11-2006, 10:16 AM
Thanks Ian,
(and its good to see that Captain Kirk is still playing chess in the ACT :) )
It seems that there are a few documents and/or tools around to help with this.
In my view though really the authorative source for doco relating to ratings should be located on the ACF ratings site.
It is surely the ACF ratings officer's responsibility to provide and maintain this information?
I think it would be good to at least throw a few links together. I suppose ideally the ratings officer should have access to the ratings page so that he can do some development and get lists up promptly.

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 10:23 AM
Can I ask a question - apologies if it is ignorant and has already been discussed - I have only skimmed the majority of the posts on this thread. Why are Burnie events submitted in Excel Spreadsheets (and from the sounds of Kevin's post, other Tas tournaments as well)?

Is this because SP isn't used for pairings in Tas? What is the reason for this decision?

Hi George,
At weekend swiss events we always set up my personal pc and run the events via SP.

At Club tournaments however we don't have a computer to available to run the Club's major round robin events through but in anycase we prefer to use an Excel spreadsheet format that I developed back in 2000.
It has all the formulas to calculate points and games played built into it and it's convenient to use.
It has several advantages over SP
It looks way more appealing than the spartan SP interface which was developed under an early windows version.
It's also very flexible in terms of rejigging the draw due to absentees and having special round robin draws in whichc not all players played each other suc as occured this year at the BCC.
From Excel (2003 version) I can also save the tables and draws as a web page.
It's popular with the members so I continue to use it.

You can see a couple of examples of the Web rendering of the Excel crosstables on the Burnie Site home page though they do lose a bit in translation to the web format.

Phil.

WhiteElephant
24-11-2006, 10:41 AM
Hi George,
At weekend swiss events we always set up my personal pc and run the events via SP.

At Club tournaments however we don't have a computer to available to run the Club's major round robin events through but in anycase we prefer to use an Excel spreadsheet format that I developed back in 2000.
It has all the formulas to calculate points and games played built into it and it's convenient to use.
It has several advantages over SP
It looks way more appealing than the spartan SP interface which was developed under an early windows version.
It's also very flexible in terms of rejigging the draw due to absentees and having special round robin draws in whichc not all players played each other suc as occured this year at the BCC.
From Excel (2003 version) I can also save the tables and draws as a web page.
It's popular with the members so I continue to use it.

You can see a couple of examples of the Web rendering of the Excel crosstables on the Burnie Site home page though they do lose a bit in translation to the web format.

Phil.


Thanks Phil, that makes things clearer.

I can see why you'd want to continue using the Spreadsheets but can also understand why Bill would get annoyed if all other tournaments are submitted in SP. I guess someone has to take on the job of converting the Spreadsheets to SP - yourself/ TCA Ratings Officer/ Bill.

Hmm...I don't know how long this takes to do - maybe an hour or so for a tournament? I have no idea. Problem is deciding who gets the job :)

By the way, if you don't have access to a PC at club events, how do you use the Spreadsheets, do you print the draw out, write results in manually and update on a PC later?

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 12:24 PM
Thanks Phil, that makes things clearer.

I can see why you'd want to continue using the Spreadsheets but can also understand why Bill would get annoyed if all other tournaments are submitted in SP. I guess someone has to take on the job of converting the Spreadsheets to SP - yourself/ TCA Ratings Officer/ Bill.

Hmm...I don't know how long this takes to do - maybe an hour or so for a tournament? I have no idea. Problem is deciding who gets the job :)

By the way, if you don't have access to a PC at club events, how do you use the Spreadsheets, do you print the draw out, write results in manually and update on a PC later?



Yes I do print the draw and crosstables, often multiple copies so people can plan nasty surprises in the openings for their opponents :)

We only have 17 entrants in the current tournament (and that's a lot for the BCC) so its easy to enter details by hand later.

It was great having David Christian as ratings officer as he would creat a new SP event for each Excel spreadsheet and enter them by hand.
I had no idea that he was doing this, or that he had to do it, for quite some time
As BG says "he is a nice guy".

I haven't heard anything from Nigel as yet but if he prefers not to do this then I guess we can talk about but again I have to stress that he has not contacted me with any complaint or query.
The first hint that I had that there might be a problem was when BG raised it on the Chess Chat forum (of all places).
I have a feeling that the BCC Club championships were also submitted in an excel spreadsheet and the games got rated OK I believe.
Perhaps something's changed since June this year??

This sort of situation would not arise really if sensible procedures were followed such as: -
1. The ACF makes clear and adequate instruction available to all State rating Officers on the ACF rating page. This instruction would cover all aspects of his tournament requirents in terms of conditions and software used etc.
2. It is then up to the individual State ratings officer to decide how best to meet these requirements and determine what they need from the Tournament Directors.

If there are any issues then really the ACF ratings officer should deal with the relevant State Officer and not kick the thing around in an argumentative manner on a Chat forum with a particular Tournament Director.

Isn't that just common sense?

Phil.

Kevin Bonham
24-11-2006, 12:55 PM
I have a feeling that the BCC Club championships were also submitted in an excel spreadsheet and the games got rated OK I believe.

They did after a lot of hassles which Bill discussed in detail here (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=118899).

WE: Quite a lot of Tasmanian tournaments are round robins of some kind - in fact outside the weekenders Swiss draws are virtually never used because of the small number of participants and the need for flexibility in small clubs where not everyone consistently turns up. And I totally agree with Phil that SP is a clumsy and inflexible program for running round robins.

Indeed SP has a very severe defect when pairing round robins - if you just enter players by rating and then pair it will always give the top seed white against the second seed and, in an event with an even number of players seed 1 will always get a +1 colour balance while seed 2 gets a -1 colour balance. This can be overcome by giving the players random international ratings and prioritising international rating over normal but it's messy.

I recommend that round robins be run by systems other than SP but then the crosstable should be converted to SP format by the submitting club. This is simply a matter of entering in all player details to a fictitious SP round robin then entering game results. You can reverse colours for pairings where colours are incorrect but as this does not affect rating there is no need to do this.

Bill Gletsos
24-11-2006, 01:03 PM
I haven't heard anything from Nigel as yet but if he prefers not to do this then I guess we can talk about but again I have to stress that he has not contacted me with any complaint or query.
The first hint that I had that there might be a problem was when BG raised it on the Chess Chat forum (of all places).
I have a feeling that the BCC Club championships were also submitted in an excel spreadsheet and the games got rated OK I believe.It was a mess. As Nigel was new I coded it for him from the Excel spreadsheet.

Perhaps something's changed since June this year??Prior to that I wasnt aware you were wasting the Rating Officers time by submititng events in Excel.

This sort of situation would not arise really if sensible procedures were followed such as: -
1. The ACF makes clear and adequate instruction available to all State rating Officers on the ACF rating page. This instruction would cover all aspects of his tournament requirents in terms of conditions and software used etc.The State Rating Officers know what is expected.
They know I will only accept SP files from them.

2. It is then up to the individual State ratings officer to decide how best to meet these requirements and determine what they need from the Tournament Directors.The only individual having a problem appears to be you.
Why should state rating officers be inconcenieved by recalitrant DOP's.
Perhaps instead of offering solutions for everyone else from web page design to the GP supervisor to rating submissions, you get your act together.

If there are any issues then really the ACF ratings officer should deal with the relevant State Officer and not kick the thing around in an argumentative manner on a Chat forum with a particular Tournament Director.Because the issue is with you. You are the one submitting the events to the State Rating Officer as Excel files instead of SP files.

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 01:44 PM
It was a mess. As Nigel was new I coded it for him from the Excel spreadsheet.
Prior to that I wasnt aware you were wasting the Rating Officers time by submititng events in Excel.
The State Rating Officers know what is expected.
They know I will only accept SP files from them.
The only individual having a problem appears to be you.
Why should state rating officers be inconcenieved by recalitrant DOP's.
Perhaps instead of offering solutions for everyone else from web page design to the GP supervisor to rating submissions, you get your act together.
Because the issue is with you. You are the one submitting the events to the State Rating Officer as Excel files instead of SP files.


Everyone makes typos, especially me, but there's no doubt about it, you are in a league of your own in that regard.
I refer you to your post 54 above which was written late at night and I am wondering if it was written under the affluence of incohol perhaps ??

EG "I just think you are clueless and I'm certainly not going to penalise BHCC for any of your shortcomings"

Is that the Burnie Club or the Hobart Club or one somewhere in between?

and in this from your last post
"Why should state rating officers be inconcenieved by recalitrant DOP's."
Why indeed?

Most of the time these errors are just amusing but at times, as I have noted before, it is hard to understand what you are on about.


I regret that you thought my Excel spreadsheet was a mess. I have pretty good skills in Excel but obviously not up to your high standards.

As I made clear earlier to WhiteElephant I am keen to make sure that what needs to be done to get Burnie events rated will be done and will discuss with Nigel asap.


I have a question for you though...
I have noticed that some Burnie Club members have a rapid rating, as given in the ACFRAPID.trn, that is the same as their normal rating as given in the ACFMAST.trn

Seems a bit odd?

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 02:02 PM
They did after a lot of hassles which Bill discussed in detail here (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=118899).



An internet chat forum is NOT the appropriate means of communication with State ratings officers and/or Tournament Directors.

If there were hassles then when was the Burnie Chess Club notified of this?
Are we expected to be mind readers?
Somehow spiritually detecting a vibe from NSW indicating that we were submitting our tournaments incorrectly?

How about you two, Bonham and Gletsos, give the BCC and myself a break?

Bill Gletsos
24-11-2006, 02:04 PM
Everyone makes typos, especially me, but there's no doubt about it, you are in a league of your own in that regard.You must be desperate if you are resorting to picking on typing errors.

I refer you to your post 54 above which was written late at night and I am wondering if it was written under the affluence of incohol perhaps ??I always post sober, I just make typing errors.

EG "I just think you are clueless and I'm certainly not going to penalise BHCC for any of your shortcomings"

Is that the Burnie Club or the Hobart Club or one somewhere in between?It is a simple typing error.

and in this from your last post
"Why should state rating officers be inconcenieved by recalitrant DOP's."
Why indeed?

Most of the time these errors are just amusing but at times, as I have noted before, it is hard to understand what you are on about.Everyone but the clueless and the stupid can see what I'm on about.

I regret that you thought my Excel spreadsheet was a mess. I have pretty good skills in Excel but obviously not up to your high standards.It has nothing to do with Excel skills but contradictory information.

As I made clear earlier to WhiteElephant I am keen to make sure that what needs to be done to get Burnie events rated will be done and will discuss with Nigel asap.Good.

I have a question for you though...
I have noticed that some Burnie Club members have a rapid rating, as given in the ACFRAPID.trn, that is the same as their normal rating as given in the ACFMAST.trn

Seems a bit odd?Not At all.
If you check the rapid master file listing you will find they are unrated.
However in the acfrapid.trn file if a player is unrated their normal rating is included. This was was requested as virtually all DOP's running rapid events would enter players without rapid ratings with their normal ratings.

Note the opposite is not true for the acfmast.trn file.

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 02:12 PM
If you check the rapid master file listing you will find they are unrated.
However in the acfrapid.trn file if a player is unrated their normal rating is included. This was was requested as virtually all DOP's running rapid events would enter players without rapid ratings with their normal ratings.

Note the opposite is not true for the acfmast.trn file.


Is this curious fact documented somewhere?
I mean how are people supposed to know this?

Bill Gletsos
24-11-2006, 02:14 PM
An internet chat forum is NOT the appropriate means of communication with State ratings officers and/or Tournament Directors.I dont use the BB to communicate with State Ratings Officers, I use email or the phone.

If there were hassles then when was the Burnie Chess Club notified of this?
Are we expected to be mind readers?Perhaps you were too busy carrying on your vendetta against kevin on here to read the thread.

Somehow spiritually detecting a vibe from NSW indicating that we were submitting our tournaments incorrectly?Perhaps the State rating Officer like myself assumed it wasnt your normal practice.

How about you two, Bonham and Gletsos, give the BCC and myself a break?I did.
I coded and rated the BCC Club Championship.

Unfortunately for all and sundry it appears you are more interested in carrying on vendettas with Kevin and introducing stupid conditions for tournaments.

You should be thankful that I try and keep abreast of events Australia wide including club events (not part of the job description) and wondered about your Preliminary events being missing.
Otherwise the December ratings would have been processed without it being noticed they were missing.

PhilD707
24-11-2006, 02:31 PM
I did.
I coded and rated the BCC Club Championship.



So we do get something out of you for our ratings fee!
That's good to know.
Rest assured as I have already stated here, that the BCC will liase with NF in an effort to ensure that you are not asked to perform this onerous task again.

That ought to free up some time for you to write up some documentation together on your curious ratings system.

Bill Gletsos
24-11-2006, 02:36 PM
So we do get something out of you for our ratings fee!Firstly you arent paying me anything. I'm an unpaid volunteer.
Secondly you are under the misaprehension you pay a rating fee. You dont you pay the ACF Admin fee.

That's good to know.
Rest assured as I have already stated here, that the BCC will liase with NF in an effort to ensure that you are not asked to perform this onerous task again.The task is only onerous when idiots like you cant do a simple task like submitting events as SP files. Even when you did manage to do so you couldnt even import the players. :whistle:

That ought to free up some time for you to write up some documentation together on your curious ratings system.Thank you for your unwanted advice.

PhilD707
26-11-2006, 07:20 AM
Your excel Spreadsheet for the Burnie Club Championship was a mess as well.


Mr. Gletsos,

I am an Information technology career professional.
I have high level IT skills in a wide range of areas one of which happens to be customising Microsoft Excel documents to suit business requirements.
I have an excellent professional reputation and I am held in high regard by my colleagues in industry and in Government.
I developed the corporate time sheet in Excel for Forestry Tasmania that has been in use since 1996 and I believe is still use today by staff in their offices around the State.

The Burnie Chess Club Championship 2006 Excel workbook was not a mess.

As your remark above has been made on a public forum it is llikely to damage my professional repuation.

I ask you to please withdraw the remark and apologise for it.

Phil.

Bill Gletsos
26-11-2006, 08:44 AM
Mr. Gletsos,

I am an Information technology career professional.
I have high level IT skills in a wide range of areas one of which happens to be customising Microsoft Excel documents to suit business requirements.
I have an excellent professional reputation and I am held in high regard by my colleagues in industry and in Government.
I developed the corporate time sheet in Excel for Forestry Tasmania that has been in use since 1996 and I believe is still use today by staff in their offices around the State.

The Burnie Chess Club Championship 2006 Excel workbook was not a mess.It contained contradictory information. As a means of rating the event it was a mess.

As your remark above has been made on a public forum it is llikely to damage my professional repuation.You dont seem to care who you criticise on here.

I ask you to please withdraw the remark and apologise for it.The spreadsheet contained contradictory information.
That is a statement of fact.

Bill Gletsos
26-11-2006, 09:05 AM
How about Keeping Ratings issues to private correspondence now? We all know what now happens at Burnie Chess club.Actually I think all you know is how Phil chooses to do things.

How about agreeing to improve your format for the rating of your tournament? Hell, I'll even agree that if you email me/ pm me with players and results i'll even update an sp file week by week for you. Anything that'll shut Mr Gletsos up :DSurely you are not suggesting that a person of Phil's self proclaimed skills isnt able to do something as simple as use SP to submit a round robin event.

PhilD707
26-11-2006, 11:13 AM
How about agreeing to improve your format for the rating of your tournament? Hell, I'll even agree that if you email me/ pm me with players and results i'll even update an sp file week by week for you. Anything that'll shut Mr Gletsos up :)
.



That is just an assumption on your part.
That has been the hallmark of Phils style. I'll stop highlighting his shortcomings when he stops making factually incorrect statements.
Actually I think all you know is how Phil chooses to do things.
Surely you are not suggesting that a person of Phil's self proclaimed skills isnt able to do something as simple as use SP to submit a round robin event.

This another cheap shot.
Mr. Gletsos knows full well that as soon as I became aware that the time honoured format was no longer accpetable via this bulletin board I promised to put the tables through Swiss pefect and submit them.
I have kept my promise and the necessary SP have been emailed to him and Nigel Frame this morning.

I am not sure what more I can do to appease the ACF ratings officer?

PhilD707
26-11-2006, 11:19 AM
It contained contradictory information. As a means of rating the event it was a mess.
You dont seem to care who you criticise on here.
The spreadsheet contained contradictory information.
That is a statement of fact.

Would you provide all your relevant evidence of this fact please. (In relation to the Exel workbook containing the table of the 2006 Burnie Club Championship)

Kevin Bonham
26-11-2006, 12:07 PM
Concerning the BCC Champs crosstable, I was sent a paper copy of the crosstable and the copy I was sent contained inconsistencies. Not many and no big deal (and also no reflection on the professional abilities of whoever produced it since anyone, however skilled, can still make the odd clerical slip) but I certainly noticed a small number (two?) of cases in which the result on one side of the crosstable did not match the result on the other side for the same game.

PhilD707
26-11-2006, 01:00 PM
Concerning the BCC Champs crosstable, I was sent a paper copy of the crosstable and the copy I was sent contained inconsistencies. Not many and no big deal (and also no reflection on the professional abilities of whoever produced it since anyone, however skilled, can still make the odd clerical slip) but I certainly noticed a small number (two?) of cases in which the result on one side of the crosstable did not match the result on the other side for the same game.



I don't know what copy of the crosstable you got a hold of. I certainly didn't send you anything.
The official crosstable that I have just checked looks fine. 120 points were gleaned from 120 games which sounds about right to me.

Kevin Bonham
26-11-2006, 01:15 PM
I don't know what copy of the crosstable you got a hold of. I certainly didn't send you anything.
The official crosstable that I have just checked looks fine. 120 points were gleaned from 120 games which sounds about right to me.

Yes but in the version I saw not all the results lined up correctly across the diagonal. If I can find it again I will scan and post it!

Bill Gletsos
26-11-2006, 06:51 PM
This another cheap shot.Nothing cheap about it.

Mr. Gletsos knows full well that as soon as I became aware that the time honoured format was no longer accpetable via this bulletin board I promised to put the tables through Swiss pefect and submit them.
I have kept my promise and the necessary SP have been emailed to him and Nigel Frame this morning.Emailed nearly an hour and three-quarters after my post above and missing any information giving the dates of the final round of each event.

I am not sure what more I can do to appease the ACF ratings officer?I would hope simply code the events correctly.
Having looked at the files they have problems.
In the Trophy and Reserves there are games with no results shown.
Now I realise this is because those players already met in the preliminary but in that case the pairing should have been deleted frpm the Trophy/Reserves as no such game actually took place in the event.

PhilD707
27-11-2006, 08:19 AM
Nothing cheap about it.

Having looked at the files they have problems.
In the Trophy and Reserves there are games with no results shown.
Now I realise this is because those players already met in the preliminary but in that case the pairing should have been deleted frpm the Trophy/Reserves as no such game actually took place in the event.

This is pretty sad response mate.
I am bending over backwards to accomodate you.

As I have said before I cannot read your mind.
You need to provide documentation on your requirents unless you wish people submitting them, particularly less experienced people, to go through this same riduculous process of trial and error.

In any case didn't you say that you have already entered the Trophy and reserves divisions in Swiss Perfect?
And even if so, now how long would it take you to scoot through the files and remove the null pairings, 1 minute, 2 minutes??

I will be putting a proposal to the Club committee that a formal request be sent from the BCC to the ACF requesting the provision of a user manual to assist Tournament Directors to enter tournaments correctly.

The Club looks forward to receiving the first draft of the user manual for comment.

Phil.

Arrogant-One
27-11-2006, 09:35 AM
Everyone makes typos, especially me, but there's no doubt about it, you are in a league of your own in that regard. ...Most of the time these errors are just amusing but at times, as I have noted before, it is hard to understand what you are on about.
When it comes to proper grammar and spelling, Bill Gletsos is 'Clueless'. :P

Desmond
27-11-2006, 09:41 AM
When it comes to proper grammer and spelling, Bill Gletsos is 'Clueless'. :POh, that is precious. Care to check your own spelling?

Arrogant-One
27-11-2006, 10:58 AM
As I have said before I cannot read your (Bill Gletsos') mind.
I am not sure why this is the case Phil as most people can read Bill like a book. Even the chimpanzee's at Sydney zoo are able to read Bill's mind. Afterall, its not like there's much to read. :P

Bill Gletsos
27-11-2006, 11:30 AM
This is pretty sad response mate.
I am bending over backwards to accomodate you.

As I have said before I cannot read your mind.Anyone with any sense would realise you dont include pairings in an event that were not actually scheduled to take place.

I note you still havent provided the dates of the final rounds of each event.

You need to provide documentation on your requirents unless you wish people submitting them, particularly less experienced people, to go through this same riduculous process of trial and error.Interestingly you seem to be the only one with difficulty.

In any case didn't you say that you have already entered the Trophy and reserves divisions in Swiss Perfect?They were coded from the Excel file and were incorrect as they had the preliminary results included.

And even if so, now how long would it take you to scoot through the files and remove the null pairings, 1 minute, 2 minutes??Of course I can and will. However that isnt the point.
The point is that if particular games were not actually part of the event.
If games are included it is reasonable to expect them to have a result coded.
I recently received an event where although the pairings for the 7th round had been done the game results were missing.
It was clear that this was the case and I followed it up to obtain the missing results.

However in your case the results were not missing but simply the games should not have been listed in the first place.

I will be putting a proposal to the Club committee that a formal request be sent from the BCC to the ACF requesting the provision of a user manual to assist Tournament Directors to enter tournaments correctly.As I said others dont seem to have your problem.

The Club looks forward to receiving the first draft of the user manual for comment.It appears you are in more of a need of a manual on common sense.

"Clues for the Clueless"
by Scott Adams

pax
27-11-2006, 11:37 AM
For the benefit of viewers watching at home, would you care to elaborate what you are referring to Boris? :D

You might want to look up the word "grammer" in the dictionary.

PhilD707
27-11-2006, 01:10 PM
You might want to look up the word "grammer" in the dictionary.

Well spotted hawkeye.
I read it twice and missed it too.
But should we look in Australian English or American English dictionary?

You know, we say potatar, they say potater, and so on. :)

Desmond
27-11-2006, 01:31 PM
Well spotted hawkeye.
I read it twice and missed it too.
But should look in Australian English or American English dictionary?

You know, we say potatar, they say potater, and so on. :) Yes, it's a common mistake and certainly not one that I would point out in the normal run of things. However, when someone takes the high road of criticising spelling and grammar, they'd better make sure that their own is impeccable - for 1 post at least!

pax
27-11-2006, 01:49 PM
But should look in Australian English or American English dictionary?

You won't find it in either. Try "Who's Who". :)

Kevin Bonham
27-11-2006, 01:57 PM
What really amuses me is that Arrogant-One attempts to flame Bill's grammar and spelling but cannot use apostrophes correctly:


Even the chimpanzee's at Sydney zoo

(Clearly no accident; he did it twice!)

:rolleyes:

Basil
27-11-2006, 05:32 PM
When it comes to proper grammar and spelling, Bill Gletsos is 'Clueless'. :P
Anyone got 5 years to spare? Do a search [this BB] on the non existent word 'avator'. Spelled incorrectly, repeatedly, blindly and cluelessly since Hardy first got wind of my mischievous muppet (actually Sesame Street).

'Avator' pays out like a fruit machine!