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View Full Version : australian open at 2004, are posters really intending



Garvinator
03-04-2004, 12:07 AM
I would like to know, are the posters who are questioning some events/concerns related to matters of the australian open 2004 really intending to do something about their concerns, or are they just having a whinge and have no intention of making any of their concerns serious in nature?

peanbrain
03-04-2004, 12:11 AM
I would like to know, are the posters who are questioning some events/concerns related to matters of the australian open 2004 really intending to do something about their concerns, or are they just having a whinge and have no intention of making any of their concerns serious in nature?

How can you do something when the bid was already awarded without conditions?! :doh:

Garvinator
03-04-2004, 12:24 AM
How can you do something when the bid was already awarded without conditions?! :doh:
ok what can you do, well as has being assembled from the australian championships, there is a report being compiled of what is best advised for organisers when they are hosting national events.

Maybe if many concerns are raised in a serious nature and the answers are not satisfactory from the organisers, then maybe tenders will be more heavily scrutinised before being accepted.

Disclaimer- at this stage most of us have commented one way or another and i hope/expect that there will be many more postings on these issues, but still no real judgement can be passed until David cordover has had a chance to reply and address any concerns raised.

jase
03-04-2004, 01:09 AM
I would like to know, are the posters who are questioning some events/concerns related to matters of the australian open 2004 really intending to do something about their concerns, or are they just having a whinge and have no intention of making any of their concerns serious in nature?

David Cordover presents as a professional and engaging person with whom I get along well with. I am aware of many grumblings about his ethics, however one has only to read the histrionics of the "Mexican" thread to see how easily judgements can be clouded.

DC's correspondence with Darryl Johansen [see Ian Rogers posts on the "Mexican" thread] is an example of the dubious nature of David's ethics: David offers Johansen $10 per rating point over 2500, whilst Gary Bekker, of the organising committee, was offering $1,500. Clearly Gary had David's authorisation, as he confirmed with Darryl:


I would be most pleased if you continued your negotiations with either Gary Bekker or Chris Depasquale, both of whom have authority to offer conditions...

I have had involvement with Darryl as an organiser and whilst rarely efficient or prompt, he is always courteous, helpful, and reasonable.

Getting foreign GMs to play here is brilliant - but offensive negotiating that eliminates both of our GMs is poor form. Unfortunately it gets worse. It is my understanding that the conditions offered to Australian IMs were as follows:
- free accommodation
- $200

After accepting these conditions [which are excellent, btw] they were apparently withdrawn, in an email along the lines of "Thanks for accepting our offer. Conditions have now changed. we are no longer able to provide accommodation or an appearance fee. But please come and play anyway."

I don't want to whinge about the Australian Open. I hope it's a roaring success. But this standard of organising is poor and I understand has resulted in one resignation from the organising committee.

The event website reflects a similar picture. Despite the assertion on JANUARY 12, 2004 that


Within a week or so there will be a tournament website at www.mindsports.com.au This site will have all the details that you need!

there is hardly any content at all, some 3 months later. The total content for the Australian Open Chess Championships would total less than this post. ChessGuru has written far more detail on this BB than appears on the official site. It looks great though :D

I want to see our top players challenged by some top foreign GMs - that makes for good theatre, good press - a most unlikelt scenario, apparently.

chesslover
03-04-2004, 01:28 AM
Getting foreign GMs to play here is brilliant - but offensive negotiating that eliminates both of our GMs is poor form. Unfortunately it gets worse. It is my understanding that the conditions offered to Australian IMs were as follows:
- free accommodation
- $200

After accepting these conditions [which are excellent, btw] they were apparently withdrawn, in an email along the lines of "Thanks for accepting our offer. Conditions have now changed. we are no longer able to provide accommodation or an appearance fee. But please come and play anyway."

I want to see our top players challenged by some top foreign GMs - that makes for good theatre, good press - a most unlikelt scenario, apparently.

Yo jase, you sure about the aussie IM proposition mate?

Rogers only talked about Daryl not the IMs

and if our GMs dont come and a lot of our IM's dont then having the 6 overseas GM will not compensate

ChessGuru
04-04-2004, 07:05 PM
Jase,

I refer to your comment
"DC's correspondence with Darryl Johansen [see Ian Rogers posts on the "Mexican" thread] is an example of the dubious nature of David's ethics: David offers Johansen $10 per rating point over 2500, whilst Gary Bekker, of the organising committee, was offering $1,500. Clearly Gary had David's authorisation, as he confirmed with Darryl:"

Basically the problem everyone has is that it appears that Aussie GMs were offered something different from Internationals.

Please look carefully at the facts and notice that EVERY time i have made an offer it has been the same, regardless of to whom. The offers I have made have also been ratified by our committee meetings and anyone on the "Advisory Panel" will be able to confirm as much.

The only DIFFERENT thing is the Gary Bekker email which went out which looked to offer more. You assume this had my authorisation. This is NOT CORRECT. Gary sent that email on the very night we were having a committee meeting which determined the conditions to be offered! (He was of course absent from that meeting, being at home emailing people!).

He has since emailed the same people admitting that the conditions offered in his email were a mistake and not authorised! So please in future check your facts.

I will be available in Canberra over the Doeberl Cup in particular at the ACF meeting on Thursday before Doeberl starts to answer in person any and all questions or problems people have about this event or anything else. I also have a phone which you are welcome to ring at ANY TIME during the day or night to check your facts before you (i am referring to everyone here) post stupid claims and get all up in arms about things.

PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME! I would love to get the website more updated however for the past MONTH I have been without a regular email account (note my infrequent postings here) and also have to wait for DUE PROCESS ... ie, committee decisions. If i could then i would run the entire thing without any input etc from CV, ACF etc and do a bloody good job, however we have a beaurocratic society and i can't post "Official" conditions entry fees, etc etc on a website before being approved by a bloody useless ACF which of course won't be until after Doeberl. If i did then i'd get blasted for putting details up and then changing them...

eclectic
04-04-2004, 07:17 PM
PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME! I would love to get the website more updated however for the past MONTH I have been without a regular email account (note my infrequent postings here) and also have to wait for DUE PROCESS ... ie, committee decisions. If i could then i would run the entire thing without any input etc from CV, ACF etc and do a bloody good job, however we have a beaurocratic society and i can't post "Official" conditions entry fees, etc etc on a website before being approved by a bloody useless ACF which of course won't be until after Doeberl. If i did then i'd get blasted for putting details up and then changing them...
no comment required

:hmm:

eclectic

Bill Gletsos
04-04-2004, 07:23 PM
PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME! I would love to get the website more updated however for the past MONTH I have been without a regular email account (note my infrequent postings here) and also have to wait for DUE PROCESS ... ie, committee decisions. If i could then i would run the entire thing without any input etc from CV, ACF etc and do a bloody good job, however we have a beaurocratic society and i can't post "Official" conditions entry fees, etc etc on a website before being approved by a bloody useless ACF which of course won't be until after Doeberl. If i did then i'd get blasted for putting details up and then changing them...
You are aware that the ACF can make binding decsions via email vote. As such there was no necessity to wait for the council meeting this coming week in Canberra.
It fact it would appear there was nothing stopping you getting your fellow CV committee member and ACF Vice President Gary Wastell to raise such issues with the ACF Council and request an email vote.

firegoat7
04-04-2004, 08:35 PM
Dear pinocchio,

Are you related to Chessguru or Jammo? Because when CG claims
Please look carefully at the facts and notice that EVERY time i have made an offer it has been the same, regardless of to whom. The offers I have made have also been ratified by our committee meetings and anyone on the "Advisory Panel" will be able to confirm as much.

I would certainly love to hear Mr Beckers and Mr Depasquales interpretation of events. It seems CG and Jammo are both contesting DKJ's claims and Ian Rogers claims, despite evidence to the contray.

Furthermore as Jase alluded, Australian IM's have also had conditions revoked that they were initially promised.

Truth,dare,double dare, kiss or promise?

regards Woodpusher.

Kevin Bonham
04-04-2004, 08:39 PM
A question I have (in absolute pig-ignorance of what the normal custom with such things is this time) - are there other tournaments that pay appearance fees on a sliding scale based on ratings points?

arosar
04-04-2004, 08:41 PM
I would certainly love to hear Mr Beckers and Mr Depasquales interpretation of events.

Their interpretation? How's about the facts?

AR

firegoat7
04-04-2004, 09:15 PM
Cordover busted talking poppycock!

chessguru quotes in his email to DKJ
So I responded: "In the meantime I would be most pleased if you continued your negotiations with either Gary Bekker or Chris Depasquale, both of whom have authority to offer conditions. As I said earlier, I am really hoping that you will play in this Australian Open." Who issued the authority????? then later on forgeting about his amnesia claims
The only DIFFERENT thing is the Gary Bekker email which went out which looked to offer more. You assume this had my authorisation. This is NOT CORRECT. Gary sent that email on the very night we were having a committee meeting which determined the conditions to be offered! (He was of course absent from that meeting, being at home emailing people!).

Your an amatuer Chessguru. You are also a complete liar based on your own evidence. Stop wasting our time and get out of chess administration you clown!

Regards FG7 and friends

ursogr8
04-04-2004, 09:19 PM
You are aware that the ACF can make binding decsions via email vote. As such there was no necessity to wait for the council meeting this coming week in Canberra.
It fact it would appear there was nothing stopping you getting your fellow CV committee member and ACF Vice President Gary Wastell to raise such issues with the ACF Council and request an email vote.

Bill

You make it sound easy, but details can go off the rails. The VIC OPEN organising committee had a quick round-table to decide how the requested invitations from the Phillipines should be handled. I thought we all agreed; but gazza actioned something quite different. Not malicious or even unilateral; just mucked-up communications.

Frankly I have a bit of sympathy for David C and the complextity of the task he has set himself. I just wish that if anyone was going to be put off-side it was not a local GM, or two. Getting it right with Ian and Darrel should be number 1 priority. Good luck from here on in CG.

starter

ursogr8
04-04-2004, 09:37 PM
Cordover busted talking poppycock!

chessguru quotes in his email to DKJ Who issued the authority????? then later on forgeting about his amnesia claims

Your an amatuer Chessguru. You are also a complete liar based on your own evidence. Stop wasting our time and get out of chess administration you clown!

Regards FG7 and friends
hi fg7
When I started replying to your post it had a different last noun in the title. What happened?

I don't have a problem with CG's explanation that Bekker had authority to negotiate conditions and that he ended up with an unauthorised set of conditions. A simple example would be if GB was told "you are able to offer Price = $x", and in fact GB goes away and offers Price = $(x+y). In this scenario GB has acted with bounds to offer Price in the negotiation; it is just that there is a stuff-up in the number. Unfortunate, undesirable and CG obviously wishes he had avoided it. But we have to support the bloke having a GO.

starter

firegoat7
04-04-2004, 09:54 PM
I changed the title Starter because I did not want to risk having it censored.
Meanwhile, I think you are in complete denial of the facts. If you let CG get away with this one then....all I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

Cheers FG7

Bill Gletsos
04-04-2004, 10:01 PM
Bill

You make it sound easy, but details can go off the rails. The VIC OPEN organising committee had a quick round-table to decide how the requested invitations from the Phillipines should be handled. I thought we all agreed; but gazza actioned something quite different. Not malicious or even unilateral; just mucked-up communications.
All I can say is so what.
Apparently your meetings were face to face and there was a foul up.
That does not immediately imply that an email debate and vote will follow the same path and have the same fate.
CG was bemoaning the fact he needed to wait for an ACF Council meeting.
I'm simply pointing out that that is not the case.

jase
04-04-2004, 10:38 PM
Basically the problem everyone has is that it appears that Aussie GMs were offered something different from Internationals.


David, please read carefully before replying. The problem is not with offering different conditions to Australian titled players. It is always far more difficult and costly to get foreign title players here [expensive airfares, in the case of GMs]. The problem is two members of the organising committee offering different conditions to the same player.

It's incompetent organising [and there's no need to "check (my) facts", as firegoat has already highlighted].

It's only April and already the excuses meter is ticking away.
1. It's GB's fault
2. It's ACF/CV Beaurocray at fault
3. It's because I don't have access to email [WHAT?????]

You encourage feedback and then get shirty because it's "WASTING MY TIME". Is GB going to be carrying the can for withdrawing agreed conditions to Australian IM[s] too?

KB - Yes there are some organisers who pay appearance fees on a sliding scale based on ratings. Some do it in brackets [eg you get $X per 50 points over Y] or as David is offering, per point.

From a negotiating and also budgeting point of view, I prefer to simply offer a set fee [eg when Joel Benjamin came out it was airfares + accommodation + $X]. I did once have an arrangement with Ian Rogers where there were two figures agreed upon, the higher conditional on his rating being above a certain point. He was very confident of that being the case, so I was able to budget accurately.

ursogr8
05-04-2004, 08:22 AM
I changed the title Starter because I did not want to risk having it censored.
Meanwhile, I think you are in complete denial of the facts. If you let CG get away with this one then....all I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

Cheers FG7
fg7

I thought the reason was something along those lines. But it did display how we can all have second thoughts; over small or large matters.

Clearly, CG's negotiation has similarly been affected by second versions, and I am sure he regrets the current outcome. However, your call for him to resign from running what looks to be a significant tournament seems to me to be 'over the top' (your description on another thread).

starter

jase
05-04-2004, 11:13 AM
Clearly, CG's negotiation has similarly been affected by second versions, and I am sure he regrets the current outcome. However, your call for him to resign from running what looks to be a significant tournament seems to me to be 'over the top' (your description on another thread).


Agreed, calling for David to resign is a bit crazy - we all hope and perhaps need a great Australian Open, and hopefully his team will deliver.

At a time when there is little on offer for Australia's top players, it's pretty disappointing to learn of the way opur GMs and IMs are being treated.

I wonder also why Ian Rogers elected so far ahead of time not to consider playing in the Australian Open? Perhaps he had a long-standing or too-good-to-refuse offer from the Germans, or maybe he felt he wouldn't get a good deal from the Australian Open organisers?

I think the chess community would like to see Ian line up against Shabalov and other foreign titled players on home turf; it is beneficial for publicity to have our top player present; and Ian is very articulate and therefore good for any media than can be obtained.

firegoat7
06-04-2004, 12:16 AM
No I want him to resign from ChessVictoria. I hope his tournament is a success.

Cheers FG7

eclectic
06-04-2004, 12:22 AM
No I want him to resign from ChessVictoria. I hope his tournament is a success.

Cheers FG7
ditto

eclectic

ursogr8
06-04-2004, 08:01 AM
No I want him to resign from ChessVictoria. I hope his tournament is a success.

Cheers FG7

Good morning fg7

Your post #12 was two short criticisms of David's negotiations in regard to the AUS.OPEN.
You then leap from there to calling for his resignation from Chess VICTORIA. And you say he should continue with organising the AUS.OPEN.
Care to comment on the apparent inconsistency in your logic.

starter

george
06-04-2004, 01:44 PM
HI David,

Please refrain from calling the ACF "Bloody Useless" - if the pressure of organising the Open etc is proving too much or if you are having problems with criticsm (deserved or not) that is your issue not the ACF's.

You have been around long enough to know how the ACF works - it works on a democratic system not a dictatorship hence decisions need to be considered by the ACF Council. You knew all this when you submitted your proposal for the tournaments. In any event I understand you are now the Chess Victoria rep on the ACF Council so I look forward to your sunny disposition.

Your energy and enthusiasm is to be applauded but please dont abuse the ACF - having Chaired the Organising Committee for the Recent Aus Champs I can assure you the pressure will only build.

Again - good luck with the organising and I look forward to seeing you in Canberra.

George Howard

arosar
06-04-2004, 06:30 PM
Hey u blokes...I was talking to this chap this avro and he said to me that he'd love to go down to the Open cos he wouldn't mind doing a bit of skiing. I thought to meself, FMD(!), ain't it friggin sweltering hot down there in Dec/Jan? I'm right, right?

AR

eclectic
06-04-2004, 06:45 PM
Hey u blokes...I was talking to this chap this avro and he said to me that he'd love to go down to the Open cos he wouldn't mind doing a bit of skiing. I thought to meself, FMD(!), ain't it friggin sweltering hot down there in Dec/Jan? I'm right, right?

AR
arosar,

it would seem that you are right ...

but then I thoughts to meself ...

perhaps this chap intends ducking/goosing over to New Zealand before or after the Open where the mountains are higher and thus some of the snow is perhaps? permanent ...

or is chessguru getting the snow making machine subsidised? ...

some mountain goat may be more fired up on this matter

;)

eclectic

Kevin Bonham
06-04-2004, 09:12 PM
Hey u blokes...I was talking to this chap this avro and he said to me that he'd love to go down to the Open cos he wouldn't mind doing a bit of skiing. I thought to meself, FMD(!), ain't it friggin sweltering hot down there in Dec/Jan? I'm right, right?

Dunno about "sweltering hot" at altitude but you'd be looking pretty hard to find any natural snow would be my guess.

Me, I love alpine scenery in the summer and I'm looking forward to getting over there and checking the place out, if I can make it.

chesslover
06-04-2004, 09:39 PM
Hey u blokes...I was talking to this chap this avro and he said to me that he'd love to go down to the Open cos he wouldn't mind doing a bit of skiing. I thought to meself, FMD(!), ain't it friggin sweltering hot down there in Dec/Jan? I'm right, right?

AR

they have snow making machines there

Garvinator
06-04-2004, 09:47 PM
they have snow making machines there

i can confirm that in summer mt buller is just like any other summer place, rather warm and no snow in australia. the snow making machines are only used in the ski season as any other time of the year the artificial snow would melt.