PDA

View Full Version : Opponent Forgets to Press Clock - What to Do?



bioniclime
23-09-2006, 05:02 AM
Here's a situation that I've encountered a few times, and I'm sure other's have too...

Your opponent makes a move, and forgets to press the clock. Let's say it is in the middle of a game, and no one is in serious time pressure.

What do you do?

Do you wait a few minutes and point to the clock?

Do you wait it out, until s/he notices? How do you deal with the opponent glaring at you, especially if his/her flag falls?

What if the move you play is (in essence) a forced recapture? Then your opponent definitely knows that you didn't point out his/her mistake...

Does it make a difference if the game is: (1) simply between friends with nothing at stake; (2) a tournament game, but no money at stake (only ratings points); (3) the last round game for first place (and a cash/trophy prize)?

I'm interested to hear what people think about this...

harry
23-09-2006, 07:34 AM
I always hit it for them . if you dont you look so wrong. If you run down everyones clock you will end up like nigelated .Anyways who wants to win like that

Rincewind
23-09-2006, 08:21 AM
What do you do if your opponent leaves their queen en prise? In a game between friends you might offer a take back. In a tournament game I rarely do, in fact in OTB tournament games I believe I never have. I probably should do the same with the clock but my philosophy is this:

If I am playing against someone who is not experienced with playing with a clock I will remind them the first couple of times they forget. After that it is their responsibility. If I am playing with someone who is experienced with a clock then it is their responsibility, not mine.

If there is no time pressure I will just make my move as per normal. If I am under time pressure (and I notice) I will think for longer. I can't remember being in a situation where my opponent was under time pressure and forgot to clock.

Kevin Bonham
23-09-2006, 10:37 AM
There was some previous discussion of this on this thread. (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=109934)

My comment there was:


If an opponent forgets to press the clock I will generally think on their time. Once I have done as much thinking as I feel is useful I will typically make a gesture to indicate they have forgotten to press their clock. There was one case where I not only let the opponent's clock run but also did my best to fake an interest in the position - but that was an opponent who had significantly annoyed me off board and to whom I felt I owed no favours.

The onus is completely on a player to remember to press their own clock. A player who forgets and is angry at you for not reminding them is 100% out of line.

I will typically make the press-clock gesture straight away when dealing with inexperienced players, unless the position is such that I feel I need the time.

MichaelBaron
23-09-2006, 11:29 AM
I will make press-clock gesture irrespective of the position on the board...

antichrist
23-09-2006, 03:42 PM
I will make press-clock gesture irrespective of the position on the board...

I will believe that when I see it. I intensely look at positon on board pretending nothing wrong and so can't be thought bad of when and if opponent wakes up to it. Of course I will look forever if opp does not wake up to it, and will make my move immediately he does wake up to it.

I reminded a chessmate a few times in a rated game and he abused me for it - can you believe, said I was distracting him.

firegoat7
23-09-2006, 08:29 PM
Your opponent makes a move, and forgets to press the clock.

What do you do?



Take them out on time, then insist that your opponent signs the scoresheets. Then laugh about it for the next couple of years. Bring out the scoresheet everytime you have to play your opponent in the future. Make sure you remind everyone that you were winning anyway. As everyone laughs at your opponents misfortune (Personally I recommend learning the notation for time and writing it on the scoresheet), point out that the position was so complicated that your opponent could not find the best move in the required time period allotted to them..

Then watch as your opponent falls apart psychologically every time they play you in the future.

Never give a sucker an even break!

cheers Fg7

Chessbum
23-09-2006, 09:07 PM
In a tournament game, I would certainly wait until his flag fell, or made a move.

MichaelBaron
24-09-2006, 02:07 PM
Hmm....:hmm:

Surely there are better ways to win

bergil
24-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Hmm....:hmm:

Surely there are better ways to winYeah but taking queen's odds from A/C doesn't happen every day of the week! ;)

Garrett
24-09-2006, 05:25 PM
Yeah but taking queen's odds from A/C doesn't happen every day of the week! ;)

Antichrist doesn't give queen odds, he gives double bishop odds because they remind him too much of jesus and the roman catholic church.

antichrist
25-09-2006, 06:28 PM
Antichrist doesn't give queen odds, he gives double bishop odds because they remind him too much of jesus and the roman catholic church.

Am I supposed to have something against queens

likesforests
25-09-2006, 07:40 PM
(1) simply between friends with nothing at stake;

I would warn them, the first couple times it happens.


(2) a tournament game, but no money at stake (only ratings points);

I would let the clock tick away. What better way to help them remember? Next time, the game might be important. I might make an exception if they have a provisional rating.


(3) the last round game for first place (and a cash/trophy prize)?

I would let the clock tick away, while I plan how to spend my winnings!

firegoat7
25-09-2006, 08:04 PM
I would let the clock tick away, while I plan how to spend my winnings!

:P thats the spirit, you will go far little grasshopper.

cheers Fg7

Garvinator
25-09-2006, 08:31 PM
I generally dont tell my opponent that they have forgotten to press their clock. I take a similar position to Kevin in that I use the 'extra' time to consider the position more thoroughly.

I dont play many social games though, almost all of my games are competition games.

I take the attitude that it only takes one time for the opponent to suffer because of not pressing their clock and they wont forget again.

Kevin Bonham
25-09-2006, 11:31 PM
Playing with a new brand of clock tonight, I twice indicated to my opponent that he needed to press (on the basis of his unfamiliarity with said clock). First time was after move 1, second time in a position where I had decided my next move already but could have made some use of the extra time had I wanted to.

EGOR
26-09-2006, 09:03 PM
Playing with a new brand of clock tonight, I twice indicated to my opponent that he needed to press (on the basis of his unfamiliarity with said clock). First time was after move 1, second time in a position where I had decided my next move already but could have made some use of the extra time had I wanted to.
You're an incredably generious man.:wink:

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2006, 11:34 PM
I should have added that:

(i) by the time of the second non-press my position was already +/-.
(ii) my opponent plays so fast he never gets into time trouble.

bioniclime
27-09-2006, 04:49 AM
Now, does any of this change when you are playing a child (lets say under 12 years old) who is rated higher than you are. What if the child is under 9 years old?

Basil
27-09-2006, 04:52 AM
Now, does any of this change when you are playing a child (lets say under 12 years old) who is rated higher than you are. What if the child is under 9 years old?
Interesting you should introduce both the age and the rating in this hypothetical.

While I am not buying onto the broader discussion (a clock is part of the game and the onus is on the player to use it - why not point out an OTB blunder?), I would say that if a person is old enough to beat you (on account of the higher rating) then their age is an entirely irrelevent consideration.

I have alerted my opponent to their unpressed clock situation on a number of tumes, but this is done on a whim and consideration of many prevailing factors at the time.

Arrogant-One
27-09-2006, 05:17 PM
Here's a situation that I've encountered a few times, and I'm sure other's have too...

Your opponent makes a move, and forgets to press the clock. Let's say it is in the middle of a game, and no one is in serious time pressure.

What do you do?
I've had this happen to me several times over the years.

Once a lady, who I soundly defeated, even refused to shake my hand because I had not told her she forgot to press her clock!

My position is simple, mistakes happen on the board (ie. Moving a piece to a square where its captured without any compensation - hanging a rook for instance) but they also occur off the board, as in forgetting to hit your clock or forgetting you are in check.

Mistakes cost games, and if your opponent doesn't 'remind' you to hit your clock, thats no basis to whinge about it. It isn't your opponent's responsibility to remind you to hit your clock - tough luck.

There's nothing wrong with trying to capitalize off such a mistake anymore than there is trying to capitalize off your opponent's doubled pawns.

Final Analysis: Wait quietly at the board until your opponent remembers.

Sneaky Tip: Pretend you are thinking about your move, even perhaps moving your hand partially over the board like you are about to move a piece, then withdraw it and looked perplexed. :) Then your opponent will think its your move whilst their time ticks away.

I don't recommend that people do this, but only advise so that people are aware of it in the event that someone tries to use this tactic on them!

Rincewind
27-09-2006, 05:20 PM
Now, does any of this change when you are playing a child (lets say under 12 years old) who is rated higher than you are. What if the child is under 9 years old?

Age is not an issue. In my first post I indicated that I give inexperienced players a bit of a grace period. A junior with a high rating should be experienced enough to know the procedure and I wouldn't handle the situation any differently.

Zwischenzug
27-09-2006, 07:04 PM
Doesn't it seem unsportsmanlike to not warn your opponent? Question: if your opponent forgets to press the clock, can you make your move and then press the clock for him/her and for yourself? Or is it against tournament rules?

Axiom
27-09-2006, 07:12 PM
i agree, for an inexperienced player, i would advise, but an experienced player,may require the harsh brutal reality lesson......they are unlikely to do it again,its like doing them a favour! ;) (dementia sufferers excepted)

Rincewind
27-09-2006, 07:33 PM
Doesn't it seem unsportsmanlike to not warn your opponent? Question: if your opponent forgets to press the clock, can you make your move and then press the clock for him/her and for yourself? Or is it against tournament rules?

"Sportsmanship" is a relative term. I certainly do not expect my opponent to warn me if I forget to clock nor would I bear any kind of a grudge if they were to use my time for their next move. So in a relative sense (which is the only meaningful context), no, I do not believe it is unsportmanlike.

The correct procedure is probably before moving, inform your opponent they they have not clocked. They should clock immediately and then you play your move and clock as per normal.

If I hadn't noticed the lack of clock (which happens often) or my opponent is not present at the board. I would just move and then press the clock as you would for a normal move. Pressing the clock as for a normal move does not change the status of the clock but I find I do it either out of not noticing that my clock was not started or just force of habit.

Sunshine
27-09-2006, 07:39 PM
I think it comes down to what is how important "the result" is to you, what you are prepared to do to achieve it and what impact the action will have in allowing you to achieve it.

While in most instances I would not want to win or gain an advantage by these means - I know there will be situations where I will take whatever edge I can get.

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2006, 07:55 PM
Now, does any of this change when you are playing a child (lets say under 12 years old) who is rated higher than you are.

Any child under 12 who is rated higher than I am should have a very good idea how to use a chess clock, so no.

MichaelBaron
28-09-2006, 12:43 AM
When i was just learning how to play chess, my coach used to tell me that if your opponent forgets to press the clock, it is a common courtesy to remind him. Thats what I have been doing ever since. The last time I had to do it, was last saturday at MCC allegro tournament in my game against Krunic.

1min_grandmaster
28-09-2006, 10:16 AM
There are a few points that have yet to be mentioned.

1) A player who forgets to press their clock and is not reminded by their opponent is in no position to be upset at their opponent simply because their opponent may not have noticed it either.

2) In some cases it may actually be advantageous for the player who 'forgets' to press the clock. For example, in a game with increments, if player A makes a move without pressing the clock, then player B makes a move, and the clock's lever has not changed position twice, then neither player will have received the increment. This can be very bad for player B if they are in time trouble, and hence be advantageous to player A.

3) This problem (2) is made more serious when ridiculous time controls such as "90 mins for the first 40 moves" are used. In such cases, the digital clock is pre-set to count how many moves are made according to how many times it is pressed. If for a move (or even more), the clock is not pressed, then players may lose on time even though they have supposedly successfully reached the time control. That is, they may have made 40 moves, are thinking about their 41st move, and they suddently find they have lost on time.


Finally, when my opponent forgets to press the clock, I will indicate to the clock so as to remind them, unless I myself am in serious time trouble, not because I need the time, but because I consider it quite distracting to have to indicate (I would probably indicate eventually, but not immediately in this case). However, I would never expect this from my opponent and I would not get upset at them if they failed to do this.

arosar
28-09-2006, 10:33 AM
Players who memorise pages and pages of theory ought to have enough left in their brains to remember to press the clock - even in the heat of OTB combat. I mean, you know, chess players are just becoming sooo precious these days - whinging about everything. Take responsibility for yourselves for God's sake. Honestly!

AR

Phil Bourke
28-09-2006, 12:05 PM
Take responsibility for yourselves for God's sake. Honestly!

AR
Amiel,
This would nearly have to be the most forlorn piece of advice I have ever read here :)
A great sentiment though, and one I hope is taken up by all.

EZBeet
28-09-2006, 01:05 PM
It's very simple.

The move is completed when the player presses the button on their clock. Just wait patiently until they complete their move, this is just etiquette.

It may be that eventually the person will think 'hmmm they are taking a long time over this move' and glance at the clock to see how much time you have left. This is when they notice which clock is running and press their button (somewhat hurriedly sometimes).

Now it is your move. Proceed to make your move, say nothing.

Igor_Goldenberg
03-10-2006, 08:25 PM
I will make press-clock gesture irrespective of the position on the board...

same here.

Jezza
01-08-2007, 10:39 AM
Hey everyone,

What should happen if you opponent leaves their clock running after they have played their move? You are not supposed to talk to them when it is still their turn, but I would hate to win a game on time if their clock ran out and I was just sitting there waiting for them to press it. I usually just point to the clock and tell them, but I am technically distracting them which is not allowed. I would be interested in peoples views on this or if another thread has already covered it, I would like to be pointed in the right direction.

Jezza

[Originally this post was the start of a new thread - mod]

Basil
01-08-2007, 10:47 AM
Hi Jezza

Good question, raising good issues.

Now, $50 HCDs to anyone who can link to a previous thread and save us the trouble ;)
BTW the short answer is leave the clock running. The intricacies and intrigue of the long answer are a bit beyond my constitution ATM.

pax
01-08-2007, 12:08 PM
1. You are perfectly entitled to let their clock keep running.

2. You are a complete loser if you win on time in this way (mind you they are probably a bit slow if they don't figure it out).

3. If you quietly remind them that their clock is running and they complain that you are distracting them, feel free to punch their lights out scowl at them across the table.

EGOR
01-08-2007, 12:30 PM
1. You are perfectly entitled to let their clock keep running.
Yes, some people even try to look like they're hard to decide their next move, but that's a bit unsporting.:(

2. You are a complete loser if you win on time in this way (mind you they are probably a bit slow if they don't figure it out).
Loser! But you've got the point!;)
There are some cases where I think it's valid to just let the other players clock run down. I would definitely do it in a lighting game. Also, see below.


3. If you quietly remind them that their clock is running and they complain that you are distracting them, feel free to punch their lights out scowl at them across the table.
If the player is stupid enough to complain to you for distracting them, or even complain to the arbiter (who will most likely think the player is stupid, but give a warning to comply with the rules) you should just take note to never remind that player again. If in that game, or some later game, they loss on time because they forgot to press the clock, it's a perfectly valid win for you.

Spiny Norman
01-08-2007, 01:25 PM
Managing the clock is part of the game, just like managing your pieces. It is a resource to be used. If my opponent is a poor resource manager, so be it. In such situations, I will work out what move I want to play, then just sit quietly and check and re-check my analysis, or spend the time doing some long term planning, or thinking about pawn structures, or if there's nothing better to do and I am getting really bored, I will go for a walk around the room (that usually prompts them to press the clock mind you).

But in cases where we have a new player on the premises, then I will politely point to the clock as soon as they have made their move and if it is clear that they have forgotten. I just think that is a courtesy which is worth extending ... and I will usually make a point of talking to them after the game and encourage them to get into a routine (work out your move, make your move, press the clock, write the move down).

Aaron Guthrie
01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
I think if it distracts you to have their clock running, tell them. If it distracts you to point it out, don't tell them.

Capablanca-Fan
01-08-2007, 02:17 PM
It is possible simply to make your move, but then the rules say that the opponent must be allowed to stop his clock. So make move, opponent realizes that his clock was not pressed, so he is allowed to press it. Then you press it back.

CameronD
01-08-2007, 02:37 PM
I dont think its possible to make your move when your opponent hasn't completed their move

Basil
01-08-2007, 02:46 PM
This is great stuff! Let's keep it going ... :P

Although Pax's #3 was goodie.

Garvinator
01-08-2007, 02:51 PM
For a new player, I would remind them only once.

The only times I would tell a more experienced player about their clock is:

1) Large increment play, where I want the increment more than the few seconds off their clock
2) Using a move counter dgt time control.

I am just not big on talking to my opponent at all during a game.

Bill Gletsos
01-08-2007, 03:07 PM
I dont think its possible to make your move when your opponent hasn't completed their moveIncorrect.
You are permitted to touch and make your move before your opponent stops their clock as soon as your opponent has released their peice upon the square.

Bill Gletsos
01-08-2007, 03:10 PM
If the player is stupid enough to complain to you for distracting them, or even complain to the arbiter (who will most likely think the player is stupid, but give a warning to comply with the rules)..The arbiter is not required to issue any penalty so he could choose to issue no warning.

Igor_Goldenberg
01-08-2007, 04:39 PM
It does not happen often, but it is polite (and a good sportsmanship) to remind your opponent if he forgot to press the clock.

EGOR
01-08-2007, 07:50 PM
The arbiter is not required to issue any penalty so he could choose to issue no warning.
But do you agree that the arbiter is likely to think the complaint is stupid?

Bill Gletsos
01-08-2007, 08:03 PM
But do you agree that the arbiter is likely to think the complaint is stupid?Absolutely. That was why I was making the point that the arbiter does not have to impose any penalty at all.

EGOR
01-08-2007, 08:04 PM
Just checking.:)

Kevin Bonham
04-08-2007, 12:46 PM
Merged two threads covering the same issue so you can now see previous posts on this issue at the top of this thread.

EDIT: Thanks for the kind feedback on this act, but being irrelevant to this thread, it has been deleted.

Denis_Jessop
04-08-2007, 04:34 PM
This is a great case of eveyone being right.

Technically, the opponent of a player who leaves his clock running should say nothing. That also applies to spectators and the arbiter.

But I have almost always acted on the view that it is sporting to draw the opponent's attention to it and no opponent has ever complained. I say "almost" because occasionally there is an opponent who just keeps forgetting to press his clock and after a couple of misses I let him go. After all a player is supposed to attend to his own clock and it can be distracting to the opponent, if he is sporting, to leave your clock running.

DJ

Basil
04-08-2007, 04:45 PM
This is a great case of eveyone being right.
Inspector Morse (or Agatha Christie) Christmas Special?

Bereaved
04-08-2007, 04:54 PM
Hello everyone,


I have no problem telling my opponent if they fail to press their clock, except in the circumstances mentioned by Denis, ie multiple repeats during one game.

What does bother me is sticky noses poking their head into the side of the board to remind an errant clock pusher that they have failed to press their clock. they almost place their head over the board in an attempt to grab the players attention.

That is definitely not in the spirit of chess. Also the multiple key janglers out there; do not jangle your keys beside people when they are playing! it is the height of rudeness.

And finally those who gather to watch an important game, please refrain from blocking those who are playing the game from returning to complete it!

Anyway, those are my gripes, for the next 2 minutes

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Basil
04-08-2007, 05:06 PM
Key janglers!

Hate the key janglers. One of my good-ish friends at the B(International)CC is both an Iraqi AND a key jangler! What a combo. If I've told him once ...

Anyway ... last time time I heard the dreaded sound and looked up ... he had bloody worry beads. I must leave you at this juncture. I may continue at a later date if I feel up to it.

Capablanca-Fan
06-08-2007, 12:53 PM
What does bother me is sticky noses poking their head into the side of the board to remind an errant clock pusher that they have failed to press their clock. they almost place their head over the board in an attempt to grab the players attention.
An arbiter should expel such a spectator, because such interference is strictly forbidden by the laws. Even the arbiter himself is not permitted to inform a player of this forgetfulness.


That is definitely not in the spirit of chess. Also the multiple key janglers out there; do not jangle your keys beside people when they are playing! it is the height of rudeness.
Grounds for a warning from arbiter, and if it is not heeded, expulsion.


And finally those who gather to watch an important game, please refrain from blocking those who are playing the game from returning to complete it!

Bill Gletsos
06-08-2007, 01:39 PM
An arbiter should expel such a spectator, because such interference is strictly forbidden by the laws. Even the arbiter himself is not permitted to inform a player of this forgetfulness.That is correct, unfortunately FIDE complicated this matter in the 2001 Laws.

The 1997 laws had as part of Article 13.6
The arbiter shall refrain from informing a player that his opponent has made a move, or that he has failed to press his clock.

The 2001 laws changed this to:
The arbiter shall refrain from informing a player that his opponent has completed a move.

The current 2005 laws read:
The arbiter shall refrain from informing a player that his opponent has completed a move or that the player has not pressed his clock.

Trent Parker
06-08-2007, 02:16 PM
I have a three strikes policy

1. After a minute or two I Point at the clock; maybe with a whisper of "you forgot to press the clock"
2. After a minute or two or after i've done my analysis I get my opponents eye contact then look at the clock. When I look at they clock they generally look at the clock and realise that they have not pressed the button.
3. Your out! I'm not giving you any more suggestions that you have failed to press the clock

Denis_Jessop
06-08-2007, 08:20 PM
That is correct, unfortunately FIDE complicated this matter in the 2001 Laws.

The 1997 laws had as part of Article 13.6
The arbiter shall refrain from informing a player that his opponent has made a move, or that he has failed to press his clock.

The 2001 laws changed this to:
The arbiter shall refrain from informing a player that his opponent has completed a move.

The current 2005 laws read:
The arbiter shall refrain from informing a player that his opponent has completed a move or that the player has not pressed his clock.

I think I can see the reason for these versions and it seems to me that the 2005 version is right. That is, what it says is that the arbiter must not tell a player that his opponent has completed a move - ie made a move and pressed his clock so that the player's clock is running - or that a player has not pressed his clock - this applies to both players. In other words the arbiter must not tell a player that it is his turn to move or that, having made a move he has not pressed his clock (ie has not completed the move). If one player has not pressed his clock there is no reason why the arbiter would want to inform the other player of that fact.

DJ

Jezza
07-08-2007, 11:52 AM
I find it funny when someone has not pressed their clock and they ask "Whose turn is it?" I could see this happening in a lightning game where the person who forgot to press the clock would think that it is their move again and they would move twice. Would this count as an illegal move and would they lose the game?

EGOR
07-08-2007, 12:17 PM
I find it funny when someone has not pressed their clock and they ask "Whose turn is it?" I could see this happening in a lightning game where the person who forgot to press the clock would think that it is their move again and they would move twice. Would this count as an illegal move and would they lose the game?
Yes, if you noticed and claimed the win before hitting your clock.

CameronD
07-08-2007, 12:52 PM
I find it funny when someone has not pressed their clock and they ask "Whose turn is it?" I could see this happening in a lightning game where the person who forgot to press the clock would think that it is their move again and they would move twice. Would this count as an illegal move and would they lose the game?

But what if there were no witnesses and both parties believe there correct.

- Player A believes player B moved
- Player B said he didn't move.

Would the arbiter have to restart the game.

Trent Parker
07-08-2007, 04:10 PM
I've actually had someone play a move. A complicated move at that. Where I've had to think for a long time and I didnt realise that my opponent hadn't hit the clock. He went for a walk and then came back and then went to make a move because his clock was going!

Kevin Bonham
07-08-2007, 09:52 PM
But what if there were no witnesses and both parties believe there correct.

- Player A believes player B moved
- Player B said he didn't move.

Would the arbiter have to restart the game.

Most likely he would give the player against whom the win was claimed the benefit of the doubt (this time) and allow the game to continue.

If he restarted the game then this would set a precedent for players using false double-move claims to force a restart.

Denis_Jessop
08-08-2007, 04:17 PM
Most likely he would give the player against whom the win was claimed the benefit of the doubt (this time) and allow the game to continue.

If he restarted the game then this would set a precedent for players using false double-move claims to force a restart.

If the players can't agree on the facts and there were no witnesses, the arbiter has no option but to rule that the game continue. Geurt Gijssen has said something to that effect but it's commonsense anyway. For the arbiter to rule otherwise he would have to form an opinion about what actually happened which is well nigh impossible in the absence of witnesses and the conflicting evidence of the two players.

DJ