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Alan Shore
05-09-2006, 10:31 PM
Just another example of John Howard's bigotry. Howard publicly telling Muslims (notice not immigrants, but specifically Muslims) to embrace 'Australian Values'. Just what are these mystical values anyway? Australia is a young and developing multicultural nation that should be open to embracing alternate cultural ideals - why is it deemed necessary to stick with some kind of defined, narrow set of subjective ill-defined values?

One of many sources:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,20324313-1702,00.html?from=public_rss

Basil
05-09-2006, 10:41 PM
I can't agree with your statement at all Dion. The article you cite clearly has John Howard referring to immigrants, not Muslims. In fact he specifically refutes your statement and is quoted as such.

How can you then attribute he refers only to Muslims when he says:

"And I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate, and that means speaking English as quickly as possible, it means embracing Australian values and it also means making sure that no matter what the culture of the country from which they come might have been, Australia requires women to be treated fairly and equally and in the same fashion as men."

As far as 'Australian Values' is concerned, I think I understand your point. I have always had a similar jar when the poms or aussie citizens generally say "that's not British", or "its unAustralian". The inference is that the quality in question is the sole purvey of the author.

Nevertheless, I think JH and the citizens I quote are done an injustice when I or you take their position too literally. In this instance, I think JH attributes Australian values as speaking the lingo [or trying very hard to] and not bashin' ya bee-atch.

Desmond
05-09-2006, 10:49 PM
Are you sure it wasn't Poorline?

Alan Shore
05-09-2006, 10:53 PM
I can't agree with your statement at all Dion. The article you cite clearly has John Howard referring to immigrants, not Muslims. In fact he specifically refutes your statement and is quoted as such.

How can you then attribute he refers only to Muslims when he says:

"And I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate, and that means speaking English as quickly as possible, it means embracing Australian values and it also means making sure that no matter what the culture of the country from which they come might have been, Australia requires women to be treated fairly and equally and in the same fashion as men."

Sorry but you are incorrect. You obviously missed the part in the article that states


"There's a small section of the Islamic population which is unwilling to integrate," he said.

Not only that but this is but one article that is addressing a response by Howard in regard to his earlier comments that also singled out Muslims as an example.

JH may have supposedly 'meant' to have made a general comment but he did not and he used a specific example.


As far as 'Australian Values' is concerned, I think I understand your point. I have always had a similar jar when the poms or aussie citizens generally say "that's not British", or "its unAustralian". The inference is that the quality in question is the sole purvey of the author.

It's problematic when one uses it as justification for bigotry - in particular after introducing sedition laws.


Nevertheless, I think JH and the citizens I quote are done an injustice when I or you take their position too literally. In this instance, I think JH attributes Australian values as speaking the lingo [or trying very hard to] and not bashin' ya bee-atch.

Yes, I am being critical, but justifiably so - individuals in high positions of power have to be more responsible with their comments - you only have to look at what happened when Pauline Hanson made her little ill-considered speech.

firegoat7
05-09-2006, 10:54 PM
I can't agree with your statement at all Dion.


Why are we not surprised Howard.



The article you cite clearly has John Howard referring to immigrants, not Muslims. In fact he specifically refutes your statement and is quoted as such.
Nonsense.

The media article states quite clearly:

"Mr Howard sparked controversy yesterday by saying on talk-back radio that a small group of Muslim migrants had refused to accept their adopted country's values and had not learned English."

OMG, English is not even Oztraaaalian.

The rodent also said......
"And I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate, and that means speaking English as quickly as possible, it means embracing Australian values ...."

Just like Howards forefathers all immigrants should integrate and learn ENGLISH, but surely if they really believed in these cultural values we would all speak some indigenous languages....:hand: After all who were the migrants 200 years ago and why didn't they integrate with the locals then?

cheers Fg7

Basil
05-09-2006, 10:58 PM
JH may have supposedly 'meant' to have made a general comment but he did not and he used a specific example.
I don't think he meant to make a general comment. I think he intended to make a specific comment about Muslims on this occasion. I think he then qualified his position by widening it to capture all peoples that don't wish to meet our broad values. I still maintain you are being unfair to JH. He doesn't seek to address one's political or religious values [although many certainly claim otherwise] - just the very broadest of community ones.

Southpaw Jim
05-09-2006, 11:00 PM
I think it's the fact that he and Costello repeatedly make these kind of statements when talking about the Muslim community. I've yet to hear him say such things when also referring to, say, European or Asian migrants.

Another example (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/our-values-or-go-home-costello/2006/02/23/1140670207642.html) from earlier this year, where again reference is made to a 'small fragment' of the Islamic community that is apparently a problem.

John (and Howard? :P) seem to think we're stupid when they refer to Muslims in one sentence and 'immigrants' in the next. It's part of the way JH plays the media like a puppet, never saying the wrong thing but still getting the idea implanted within the public consciousness.

There are no "Australian" values. There are Anglo-saxon values, Aboriginal values, Chinese values, Greek values... there obviously will be a lot of crossover on certain issues. If they exist, I certainly don't know what "Australian" values are (apart from a political cudgel) - and when my family migrated here in 1838, what chance does a first generation migrant have of making sense of JH & co? (Danna Vale? :wall: ).

Basil
05-09-2006, 11:07 PM
but surely if they really believed in these cultural values we would all speak some indigenous languages. After all who were the migrants 200 years ago and why didn't they integrate with the locals then?
Certainly the invasion of Australia was a disgrace [as were all other invasions]. I can't and wouldn't care to defend any of them. But here we are. What do you propose?

a) We all speak a common language? Which one?
b) We speak the language of our choice.
c) ???

bergil
05-09-2006, 11:15 PM
Just what are these mystical values anyway? "Australian Values" exist although they are being eroded, they are in part a health disrespect for authority, mateship, a fair go for all in an egalitarian society, Support of the under dog or battler, the ability to own your own home with a yard for your kids to play in. (pass my a hanky :oops:)

I can't agree with your statement at all Dion. The article you cite clearly has John Howard referring to immigrants, not Muslims. In fact he specifically refutes your statement and is quoted as such.
I recall him saying it a few days ago or if not him it was the Treasurer Peter Costello.

MichaelBaron
05-09-2006, 11:18 PM
Anyway, what are the Australian Values?:hmm:

Drinking Beer every friday night?:hmm:
Using the word "mate" extensively?
Preferring "good time" to studies (Thats why 90% of scholarships go to first or second generation migrants)?
Having casual "one night" relationships?
Taking pride in being the strongest Footy nation in the world (and we are indeed the best since nobody else plays auzzie rules)

To me and many other migrants being a "true aussie" means taking things easy :) Am I wrong?

Or are there any other "values" that i missed out on?

Seriously speaking, after 15 years in australia i am still struggling to understand what the Australian values are all about.

Alan Shore
05-09-2006, 11:47 PM
I don't think he meant to make a general comment. I think he intended to make a specific comment about Muslims on this occasion.

But you just said he was referring to immigrants, not Muslims - which is it? You're sounding like Bruce Flegg and the 500 beds! ;)


I think he then qualified his position by widening it to capture all peoples that don't wish to meet our broad values.

Right. So you believe he intended to make a specific comment, realised 'oh no better cover my ass' and came out with 'It doesn't involve singling out a group.' I don't know how many will be fooled by that one but there are always some poor misguided souls.


I still maintain you are being unfair to JH.

Oh pleeeeeeease. :rolleyes:


He doesn't seek to address one's political or religious values [although many certainly claim otherwise] - just the very broadest of community ones.

Are you for real? Oh sure - he's not addressing anyone's political or religious values - as long as they're consistent with his own ideas about Australian values.

People are already living in this country under its laws (even the ridiculous ones). JH has no right to force people to 'integrate into society' making some kind of medieval proclaimation to reinforce his pathological need to control everything.

bergil
06-09-2006, 12:05 AM
Anyway, what are the Australian Values?:hmm:

Drinking Beer every friday night?:hmm:
Using the word "mate" extensively?
Preferring "good time" to studies (Thats why 90% of scholarships go to first or second generation migrants)?
Having casual "one night" relationships?
Taking pride in being the strongest Footy nation in the world (and we are indeed the best since nobody else plays auzzie rules)

To me and many other migrants being a "true aussie" means taking things easy :) Am I wrong?

Or are there any other "values" that i missed out on?

Seriously speaking, after 15 years in australia i am still struggling to understand what the Australian values are all about.Aussie values:
Not killing civilians
A health disrespect for authority
Mateship
A fair go for all in an egalitarian society
Support of the under dog or battler
Taking the piss - laughing at misfortune
She'll be right - No whinging
Defiance
Cultural chringe
Dislike of righteous moralisers
Humanitarianism
The ability to own your own home with a yard for your kids to play in

bergil
06-09-2006, 12:24 AM
More Howard government bigotry.

Education Minister Brendon Nelson:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/accept-australian-values-or-get-out/2005/08/24/1124562921555.html

The Treasurer Peter Costello:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/our-values-or-go-home-costello/2006/02/23/1140670207642.html

Southpaw Jim
06-09-2006, 08:23 AM
McCarthy v.2.0 :mad:

pax
06-09-2006, 09:18 AM
The Alan Joneses of this world would like to connect the business about immigrants learning English with the 'threat of terrorism'. And that is the clear angle on Howard's comments being presented in some parts of the media.

It's garbage of course, since terrorist acts in Western countries have almost universally been committed by young, educated people with excellent command of English.

bergil
06-09-2006, 10:02 AM
The Alan Joneses of this world would like to connect the business about immigrants learning English with the 'threat of terrorism'. And that is the clear angle on Howard's comments being presented in some parts of the media.

It's garbage of course, since terrorist acts in Western countries have almost universally been committed by young, educated people with excellent command of English.Rules me out as a terrorist! :doh:

Kevin Bonham
06-09-2006, 11:48 AM
This is typical Howard behaviour. He frequently makes symbolic statements with no actual policy implications but that aim to reassure the ex-Hanson talkback-radio racist right that he is listening to their concerns.

The Left in this country makes a serious mistake by getting huffy about comments of this kind and trying to take them on intellectually and in an offended fashion as if they show up Howard as a more extreme racist than he is. Howard's tactics should be simply exposed for what they are - throwing bones to dogs he wants to keep voting Liberal/National (especially the latter) rather than risking another right-wing populist minor party rebellion. Howard knows that if he doesn't come out with this guff every now and then there will be 15 Bob Katters in federal parliament and not surprisingly he doesn't want that.

Vlad
06-09-2006, 12:25 PM
It's garbage of course, since terrorist acts in Western countries have almost universally been committed by young, educated people with excellent command of English.

As usual you are missing the point, mate. :wall: It does not matter who commit the terrorist acts; what matters is how many people support it.

I seldom find myself supporting JH but in this very instance I truly do. The government should force migrants to learn English and there is a clear connection of this with possible terrorism.

pax
06-09-2006, 12:51 PM
I seldom find myself supporting JH but in this very instance I truly do. The government should force migrants to learn English and there is a clear connection of this with possible terrorism.

Bullshit. How many Greek mamas do you see involved in terrorism?

Seriously, the ones who have trouble learning English are older people for whom it really is difficult. There is no evidence that Islamic communities are any worse than any other immigrant groups in this regard.

Q: where were the London bombers born?
A: Britain. Born and bred.

arosar
06-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Well, I'm not making a link between No-English and terrorism, but I tell you what, I am truly annoyed at some of these blow-ins who come in here without a single word of English. These people should not be permitted to enter the country. How are they suppose to interact with the wider population?

I tell you something. Many times I have been approached by complete strangers at the train station and they just start speaking to me in their own lingo. THey should also be taught basic manners particularly about not speaking too loudly. I don't know why but it seems some languages have to be spoken so goddamn loudly and it's very annoying to my ears.

And one more thing while I'm at it. Asians surely have to have a tougher driving test. That's all I can say.

AR

pax
06-09-2006, 02:09 PM
I tell you something. Many times I have been approached by complete strangers at the train station and they just start speaking to me in their own lingo. THey should also be taught basic manners particularly about not speaking too loudly. I don't know why but it seems some languages have to be spoken so goddamn loudly and it's very annoying to my ears.

Did you think that maybe they were tourists? Perhaps they were surprised by the total lack of any foreign language information in the train station and desperately trying to find someone that spoke Spanish/Italian/Arabic or whatever to help them catch the train to wherever they were going to.

English speaking people do exactly the same thing.

"Excuse me, do you speak English?"

*blank stare*

"EX-CUSE ME, DO YOU UN-DER-STAND ME WHEN I SPEAK LOU-DER AND SLO-WER??"

antichrist
06-09-2006, 02:30 PM
Well, I'm not making a link between No-English and terrorism, but I tell you what, I am truly annoyed at some of these blow-ins who come in here without a single word of English. These people should not be permitted to enter the country. How are they suppose to interact with the wider population?

I tell you something. Many times I have been approached by complete strangers at the train station and they just start speaking to me in their own lingo. THey should also be taught basic manners particularly about not speaking too loudly. I don't know why but it seems some languages have to be spoken so goddamn loudly and it's very annoying to my ears.

And one more thing while I'm at it. Asians surely have to have a tougher driving test. That's all I can say.

AR

As I have commented earlier, some migrants, especially in western and south western suburbs of Sydney are refugees, should they be turned away becasue they don't know English. We could have been justified in refusing refugees from Holocaust on those grounds. We could justify sending back refugees from Western New Guinea as well, yet these fuzzy wuzzy angels (upset FG now?) saved Aussie soldiers and are now being persecuted by Indos who very well could learn English and migrate to Aussie.

In other words, fair suck of the sav!

I would reakon that Aussie guys who visited prostitutes in Australia who could not speak English were probably still satisfied. (hope don't get barred for this - but once mistakenly went into an upstairs brothel in Bankstown [AR terroritory] and they were all Asian who didn't sound like they speaka da Inglish. It wasn't that I meant to go into a downstairs brothel just a commercial office.

Listen AR, you sound you would like to be in a more snobby suburb but frustrated because you can't afford it. Bad luck cobber.

If there is anyone I have missed slandering please put in writing and I will amend tomorrow.

arosar
06-09-2006, 02:44 PM
Listen AR, you sound you would like to be in a more snobby suburb but frustrated because you can't afford it. Bad luck cobber.

Listen here Arab, I tell you something about your kind, especially about your Mohameddan cousins. Youse all got a bad PR, you know. And your teenagers aren't doing yourselves any favours. Just a bunch of troublemakers.

I tell you last, right, last Monday, these two Lebos got on the bloody train and said, "Tickets please". We all turned around thinking it was genuine ticket inspectors. Turns out just a couple of good for nothing kids. Then, more disturbingly, they proceeded to harass this Asian chick. FMD!

Now listen, I'm not snobby. See lucky, if I'd been an Aussie, you'd be calling me a racist. I just don't like to see these people come in here with no English and not make an effort then just bludge off the rest of us by getting bloody government benefits as soon as they step off the friggin' boat!

AR

antichrist
06-09-2006, 02:54 PM
AR, as you are aware I have known dozens of your type since before you were even born - and could I give you some ripe stories about their tricks, but how I see it when we have Fed governments spending billions on Iraq war etc (Vietnam war in my day) I don't care if someone small time ripes them off, it is less money they have on unjust wars.

Some of those "cousins of mine" don't mind have gigantic families all on social security, they will outbreed us all one day.

They can't harrass their own chicks as will be knifed so has to harrass someone, and Asian chicks can be so delicious. It is a compliment to Asians that they leave skippies alone.

How much benefits will Vivian Salez (?) get, about ten million she is going for. And she can't speak English or anything, a bit gone unfortunately so can't even ask for tickets on train or to Manila and back.

Just tuck into delicious Bankstown babaganous and you will be making me jealous. Why don't you put on a ches comp at the big Grand Feista at Bankstown Raceway coming up shortly. They have not had for awhile since Rooty Hill comp being on that weekend. I go there to chase up a few old flames.

arosar
06-09-2006, 03:38 PM
http://crikey.com.au/Media/20060906-A-sad-day-for-Australian-democracy.html

And were we talking about this chick: http://crikey.com.au/Media/20060906-The-remaking-of-Naomi-Robson.html ?

AR

arosar
06-09-2006, 05:34 PM
Did you think that maybe they were tourists?

For a moment there I thought you said "terrorists"! Jesus.

No, I am quite certain they were not tourists. Trust me, the context and place were enough to tell me this.

AR

firegoat7
06-09-2006, 06:22 PM
Certainly the invasion of Australia was a disgrace [as were all other invasions]. I can't and wouldn't care to defend any of them. But here we are. What do you propose?

a) We all speak a common language? Which one?
b) We speak the language of our choice.
c) ???

What is your point?

cheers Fg7

firegoat7
06-09-2006, 06:29 PM
There are no "Australian" values.

I don't think this claim is accurate. There are many different types of Australian values.




There are Anglo-saxon values, Aboriginal values, Chinese values, Greek values... there obviously will be a lot of crossover on certain issues.


All cultural groups of people have values and yes there are no definitive Anglo Saxon or Greek values! Which is what Belthaser has elucidated.



If they exist, I certainly don't know what "Australian" values are (apart from a political cudgel) - and when my family migrated here in 1838, what chance does a first generation migrant have of making sense of JH & co? (Danna Vale? :wall: ).

I am sure you can do much better then that. Australian have values, they are just not universal ones :hand:

cheers Fg7

firegoat7
06-09-2006, 06:41 PM
"Australian Values" exist although they are being eroded, they are in part a health disrespect for authority, mateship, a fair go for all in an egalitarian society, Support of the under dog or battler, the ability to own your own home with a yard for your kids to play in. (pass my a hanky :oops:)
I recall him saying it a few days ago or if not him it was the Treasurer Peter Costello.


This is typical of the sort of jingoistic nonsense that has been embedded in the typical "Australian psyche".

Of course it is a complete myth.

Why are they being eroded? Are they not always changing?

" A disrespect for authority" ..... Do you mean Menzies and the Queen?
"Mateship" ..... Are you telling me the Catholics and Protestants were always mates?
"A fair go in an egalitarian society" You mean like the fair go Batman gave the indigenous people in Melbourne or the fair go that women had when they recieved half the pay of males for the same work?

"support for the underdog" .....granted a common response in most Australians, but not all of them.

Look its true Australia was a more egalitarian society for part of its society, namely working white men, but really was it ever really that fair?

cheers fg7

firegoat7
06-09-2006, 06:43 PM
It's garbage of course, since terrorist acts in Western countries have almost universally been committed by young, educated people with excellent command of English.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Good on you Paxman. I agree with you 100%:eek:

cheers Fg7

firegoat7
06-09-2006, 06:45 PM
I seldom find myself supporting JH but in this very instance I truly do. The government should force migrants to learn English and there is a clear connection of this with possible terrorism.

Go back to Siberria and take your Josef Stalin attitude with ya:hand:

cheers Fg7

firegoat7
06-09-2006, 06:46 PM
As I have commented earlier, .....

Do not feed the troll!:lol:

cheers Fg7

bergil
07-09-2006, 01:59 AM
This is typical of the sort of jingoistic nonsense that has been embedded in the typical "Australian psyche".

Of course it is a complete myth.So if its embedded in our psyche how is it a complete myth?



Why are they being eroded? Are they not always changing? They evolve but Individualism is eroding community and in turn if you are not associating with those you live amongst it is hard to know or shared the same values and beliefs.



" A disrespect for authority" ..... Do you mean Menzies and the Queen? I mean respect is earnt not automatically given just because of the position. Australians have always had some contempt or scepticism of those in authority especially if they thought they were better than you because of it.

"Mateship" ..... Are you telling me the Catholics and Protestants were always mates?No not always but did we have the same level of hatred in Australia? My father is Protestant and my mother is Catholic and there have been other cases of such marriages in our extended families before the 60's.


"A fair go in an egalitarian society" You mean like the fair go Batman gave the indigenous people in Melbourne or the fair go that women had when they received half the pay of males for the same work? Or when women became pregnant they lost their jobs? No, like education for all and universal health care and a classless society



"support for the underdog" .....granted a common response in most Australians, but not all of them.Every "Australian Value" I named are not be held by every single Australian but a majority of them or were once. Has anyone else named some? What do you think are Australian values David?



Look its true Australia was a more egalitarian society for part of its society, namely working white men, but really was it ever really that fair?

cheers fg7 Compared to what, when and who?

Your right it was horribly unjust and reprisals should take place immediately.

arosar
07-09-2006, 11:45 AM
So if its embedded in our psyche how is it a complete myth?

He's probably talking about "false consciousness". He'll explain it to you.

AR

firegoat7
07-09-2006, 01:57 PM
So if its embedded in our psyche how is it a complete myth?


Because we conveniently ignore the reality of our everyday existence. You claimed for instance that Australia was a more egalitarian society. This is universalist propoganda because it presumes that Australia was egalitarian from a particular perspective ie. working class male. Now of course this perspective does have some truth, but at the same time it is also completely bogus. For instance, indigenous people were not classified as voting citizens until the late 1960's. So from their perspective Australian values were not very egalitarian. The same goes for women who despite being half the population did not have the same economic rights as men.
Therefore the idea that this country was an egalitarian society is a myth. It was never ever really like that and any attempt to say it was is just romanticising the past.



They evolve but Individualism is eroding community and in turn if you are not associating with those you live amongst it is hard to know or shared the same values and beliefs. Lets face it, community was never all it pretended to be anyway. Furthermore, while I agree that indiviualism has eroded community, it must be remembered that it is not necessary to have shared values and beliefs to have a community. The days of monothematic culture never really completely existed anyway,there were always differences. Often people just like to romanticise their experiences of the past and this tends to cause them to look back with regret over something they have lost instead of focussing on what they have gained.



I mean respect is earnt not automatically given just because of the position. Australians have always had some contempt or scepticism of those in authority especially if they thought they were better than you because of it. No not always but did we have the same level of hatred in Australia? My father is Protestant and my mother is Catholic and there have been other cases of such marriages in our extended families before the 60's.

True to some degree, and yes Australia's history is littered with tragic hatred and supression of other peoples. So you are wrong about that aspect of our past. Our general historical trend has always tended towards paranoia of Asian people, while for goodness sakes, the state of Tasmania placed a bounty on indigenous peoples scalps. Would that happen nowdays?




Or when women became pregnant they lost their jobs? No, like education for all and universal health care and a classless society

Bergil, pregnant women still lose their jobs occassionally. Education is no longer free and has not been free for a while. Moreover, it was not free for most of the 20th century. We do not have universal health care in this country. Amnesty International has often spoke about this particular hidden point of Australian society.
To suggest that our country is classless is just absolutely absurd. All industrial societies are class divided. If you don't believe me just go to your local supermarket and consider what you eat, why you eat it and what you would eat if you had no financial considerations. Compare what you put in your shopping market with what other people put in their shopping basket. Then ask yourself is that person really buying the fish fingers instead of tiger prawns simply because class does not exist? Of course they are not!:hand:



Every "Australian Value" I named are not be held by every single Australian but a majority of them or were once.

I am not even sure that this claim is true. I think their is enough doubt to suggest that this may even be a minority myth, although I cannot be certain about this.



Has anyone else named some? What do you think are Australian values David?


Here are some general values I believe exist in our societies that would be closer to a majority viewpoint.

Australian's generally tend to require more personal space then other people in other parts of the world.

Australian's are one of the most, or at least in the top ten, nationally diverse multicultural groups of people on the planet.

Australian's generally love their sport.

Australian's are generally very ignorant about indigenous people and continue to want to claim their cultural heritage to showcase to the rest of the world as culture, while at the same time denying them basic human rights that have been established for other indigenous people around the globe.

I cannot speak any indigenous languages can you? What sort of Australian people does that make us? Answer:most probably, children of ignorant English speaking ,colonial, propogandisized immigrants. How dare we tell other people to assimilate to our standards of ignorance.:hand: What are we trying to protect?

Of course we have our cultural values which we should keep alive, but why should they be enforced upon everyone? Belthasar's point is that little Johnny does not speak for him, and he is an "Australian", he has already won the argument quite convincingly.

cheers Fg7