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BroadZ
14-03-2004, 10:48 PM
that was just the one time!

PHAT
17-03-2004, 04:28 PM
I hate volunteer work. I expect to get paid. Besides, I can't bloody work with 'em ACF mob.


You don't have th workwith them!! Just have PB put a "Request for Photos" from 2004 from all states, in the ACF bulletin and collect them. Doctor them, cut and paste them into a calender template, and then ..... ummm .... Print a 50 glossies and send them to the clubs as a sample, and take orders.

You, Amiel, would be a real photograher with real product to your name. Think CV. [not Chess Victoria, the other one :wink:]

jenni
17-03-2004, 04:53 PM
I hate volunteer work. I expect to get paid.

AR

Why? If everyone else had that attitude our sociey would collapse!

Would you like it if you had no weekenders to play in - no Doeberl Cup, no ratings coming out. That's just an awful attitude.

I don't mind people not helping out all the time - everyone has different circumstances. When I had my babies, I didn't do much either, as I had enough work just coping with the family, but as they have grown older I have done my bit.

I think everyone should do some volunteering at some point in their life, whether it is taking meals to the aged, or fighting bushfires or whatever. If you just take and don't give, then you are a sad person!

arosar
17-03-2004, 04:58 PM
Yeah...yeah....you're all a bunch of bloody saints and martyrs, ain't ya? Well good on youse you lot. The 'volunteer' ethic is exactly why chess can't move forward. I think of it more as a 'mendicant culture' really.

AR

jenni
17-03-2004, 05:43 PM
Yeah...yeah....you're call a bunch of bloody saints and martyrs, ain't ya? Well good on youse you lot. The 'volunteer' ethic is exactly why chess can't move forward. I think of it more as a 'mendicant culture' really.

AR
please explain I am genuinely trying to understand but having a lot of trouble. Tell me how you would run (for e,g,) Doeberl without any volunteers?

WBA
17-03-2004, 06:11 PM
please explain I am genuinely trying to understand but having a lot of trouble. Tell me how you would run (for e,g,) Doeberl without any volunteers?

Okay Jenni I might give this a shot as it happens to be something I have thought and fought about a fair bit recently

First Step - Tenders are called for. Organiser needs to meet certain guidlines, namely

Date/Prizemoney/Strength/Time Limits/International Ratings

Chess Organiser wins tender and runs event. Venue is provided (is it now?) and vendor shows some foresight and organises all media, hires the right people with the right contacts. Aggressively chases sponsorship (not that hard, with a big event to promote), chases internationals, runs at a profit and splits a % of proceedings with the State Organisation.

You see the individual working for himself is going to have more to gain and will achieve a lot more than most working for state bodies. An event such as Doeberl should be tendered out, I think you might be surprised at just how much profit it might make in the right hands.

Bill Gletsos
17-03-2004, 06:20 PM
Okay Jenni I might give this a shot as it happens to be something I have thought and fought about a fair bit recently

First Step - Tenders are called for. Organiser needs to meet certain guidlines, namely

Date/Prizemoney/Strength/Time Limits/International Ratings

Chess Organiser wins tender and runs event. Venue is provided (is it now?) and vendor shows some foresight and organises all media, hires the right people with the right contacts. Aggressively chases sponsorship (not that hard, with a big event to promote), chases internationals, runs at a profit and splits a % of proceedings with the State Organisation.

You see the individual working for himself is going to have more to gain and will achieve a lot more than most working for state bodies. An event such as Doeberl should be tendered out, I think you might be surprised at just how much profit it might make in the right hands.
Since I dont recall ever seeing you post on the old ACF BB its likely you never saw the opinions of those who belived that chess organisers should make as little a profit as possible out of any event they may organise and that all income for the event should be spent on reasonable expenses and all the rest go back to the players as prize money.

WBA
17-03-2004, 06:34 PM
Hi Bill

Your assumption is correct I in fact never read a single post on the old board. But I believe the consensus of the posters who feel that way are wrong.
Now before anyone gets on their high horses I am not completely against volunteer work. I have given plenty of my time to MCC and before that I was doing the same thing in Shepparton and coaching the juniors for nothing. I have also contriubuted my time to community centres not involved in chess. This is not a stupid attempt at spruiking "look at me" behaviour, this is just informing where I sit, and showing I do hold volunteers in High regard.

But the truth is that Doeberl could be run without any unpaid volunteers and it could be run very successfully. I am of the opinion that people working on promoting their own tournaments will have greater success. They are usually very highly motivated and successful people, very persuasive people and very efficient people. If someone can run a weekender that makes a $4000 profit and the organisation (s) get their share I cannot see a problem. Until chess organisers are more professional then the standards of most of the tournaments in Aus will be remain very poor.

arosar
17-03-2004, 06:36 PM
please explain I am genuinely trying to understand but having a lot of trouble. Tell me how you would run (for e,g,) Doeberl without any volunteers?

Don't be so ridiculous, alright? You're stuck in this idea that volunteering is the only way to make an event happen. The least of what I'm suggesting is to actually compensate people for their commitment - not just freakin' exploit them. I mean, think about it: some blokes here who actually 'volunteer' are volunteering their professional expertise for which they normally get paid $$$ per hour. Chess, and Aussie chess especially, just exploits that. We have a freeloading culture. And it should stop.

So now you wonder, alright, where we gonna get the dough from? Well, from the likes of me, of course. Now if you people wanna charge me $100 membership, say - and I reckon there's value in it - I'll happily fork out. Problem with you lot is that you set your sights so so low. Always thinking, "what about 'em poor pensioners, students, unemployed". I say, "f**k 'em!" They wanna play, they pay. Easy. Profit. Profit. Profit. That must be the objective.

AR

WBA
17-03-2004, 06:44 PM
Don't be so ridiculous, alright? You're stuck in this idea that volunteering is the only way to make an event happen. The least of what I'm suggesting is to actually compensate people for their commitment - not just freakin' exploit them. I mean, think about it: some blokes here who actually 'volunteer' are volunteering their professional expertise for which they normally get paid $$$ per hour. Chess, and Aussie chess especially, just exploits that. We have a freeloading culture. And it should stop.

So now you wonder, alright, where we gonna get the dough from? Well, from the likes of me, of course. Now if you people wanna charge me $100 membership, say - and I reckon there's value in it - I'll happily fork out. Problem with you lot is that you set your sights so so low. Always thinking, "what about 'em poor pensioners, students, unemployed". I say, "f**k 'em!" They wanna play, they pay. Easy. Profit. Profit. Profit. That must be the objective.

AR

I do not think all volunteers are exploited, parents help out whilst spending time with their children and others actualyl like helping, but you are right about standards and sight ebing so low.

Australian chess is off the radar when it comes to successful well run events, they just barely exist if at all and one of the reasons is that expectations are so low. What would be considered as an abject failure within some sporting communities is an acceptable return in chess and the bar really needs to be raised to the next level.

AR your comments about students pensioners etc looks like one made to shock, but it reads stupid and hard headed. The Unemployed, The juniors & their parents as well as grandparents (retirees/pensioners) are among those that can do the most good for an organisation. Without them nobody survives

arosar
17-03-2004, 06:56 PM
The Unemployed, The juniors & their parents as well as grandparents (retirees/pensioners) are among those that can do the most good for an organisation. Without them nobody survives

Fine! But charge 'em. You can charge 'em a discount - but higher than what we're charging them at the moment. Trust me...increase the fee and they'll still be around.

AR

jenni
17-03-2004, 07:39 PM
Hi Bill

Your assumption is correct I in fact never read a single post on the old board. But I believe the consensus of the posters who feel that way are wrong.
Now before anyone gets on their high horses I am not completely against volunteer work. I have given plenty of my time to MCC and before that I was doing the same thing in Shepparton and coaching the juniors for nothing. I have also contriubuted my time to community centres not involved in chess. This is not a stupid attempt at spruiking "look at me" behaviour, this is just informing where I sit, and showing I do hold volunteers in High regard.

But the truth is that Doeberl could be run without any unpaid volunteers and it could be run very successfully. I am of the opinion that people working on promoting their own tournaments will have greater success. They are usually very highly motivated and successful people, very persuasive people and very efficient people. If someone can run a weekender that makes a $4000 profit and the organisation (s) get their share I cannot see a problem. Until chess organisers are more professional then the standards of most of the tournaments in Aus will be remain very poor.

I sort of agree with a lot of this - there is no reason why major tournaments cannot become more professional and be run better. It is what Cordover is doing with his Mt Buller concept and I support what he is trying to do (with the exception of the schools comp), until such time as it has happened and can be evaluated in the light of the experience.

I suppose it is the blanket attack on volunteering that I object to. While Doeberl can probably run without volunteers (there are only about 4 people who do all the work at the moment), it is more the clubs and development activities that would collapse.

I even have a little bit of sympathy for AR's attack on special rates for disadvantaged, because often the people who complain about costs are the ones who are most capable of paying. However I do think we ought to be a bit more of a caring society. I wonder how AR will end his days? A very lonely old man, dependent on all those hated volunteers for a bit of sunlight in his life!

I don't feel a martyr because of the volunteer work I do - I love it! I have made friends with people all over Australia (except probably WA!) and a great sense of achievement - much more so than paid work.

peanbrain
17-03-2004, 07:43 PM
Fine! But charge 'em. You can charge 'em a discount - but higher than what we're charging them at the moment. Trust me...increase the fee and they'll still be around.

AR

Excellent!!

I look forward to the first tournament to be commercially run by AR and WBA jointly. When is it going to happen guys?? :clap:

jenni
17-03-2004, 07:49 PM
We have a freeloading culture. And it should stop.


AR

Well I am not an Australian originally either, but I think the strong volunteer culture that exists is one of the things I like best about Australia. It is not free loading - I think you are the free loader!

Maybe we could have a two tiered entry system to comps - those people who have a record of helping in their organisations get a discounted entry and the AR's who don't believe in volunteering and who believe that volunteers should be paid, could pay maybe twice the going rate. This sounds like a win win to me - the tournament/club gets its normal entry fees and AR is happy because we no longer have volunteers - they get paid in entry fees. :clap:

chesslover
17-03-2004, 08:07 PM
Yeah...yeah....you're all a bunch of bloody saints and martyrs, ain't ya? Well good on youse you lot. The 'volunteer' ethic is exactly why chess can't move forward. I think of it more as a 'mendicant culture' really.

AR

I agree with you 1million% AR :clap: :clap:

Helping chess is more than volunteering. If you spend $ on buying chess books and chess videos then you are probably doing far more than a volunteer. Ask yourself why do people volunteer when they can instead work and get more money and help australain chess

people can be so narrowminded :mad:

jenni
17-03-2004, 08:15 PM
I agree with you 1million% AR :clap: :clap:

Helping chess is more than volunteering. If you spend $ on buying chess books and chess videos then you are probably doing far more than a volunteer. Ask yourself why do people volunteer when they can instead work and get more money and help australain chess

people can be so narrowminded :mad:

I would actually be pretty pissed off at this, except I became convinced after that post of yours when your vote didn't get counted for best post, that you couldn't be for real. No-one could be that stupid! :p

eclectic
17-03-2004, 09:39 PM
I was thinking of going in to see my bank manager Mr Smith and asking ...

"Mr Smith ..."

"Yes Mr Eclectic ... "

"I did forty-five hours of volunteer work last month ... is there any chance I might be able to convert this into a home loan repayment or two?"

" Why certainly Mr Eclectic, our in-house actuaries have the appropriate conversion tables on hand and the necessary adjustment in your favour shall be made forthwith."

"Why, thank you, Mr Smith"

"It's a pleasure, Mr Eclectic."

WBA
17-03-2004, 09:45 PM
Excellent!!

I look forward to the first tournament to be commercially run by AR and WBA jointly. When is it going to happen guys??

Do you often clap to yourself peanbrain?? Strange habit I must admit. For your information I have put money and time into chess clubs.


I agree with you 1million% AR

Helping chess is more than volunteering. If you spend $ on buying chess books and chess videos then you are probably doing far more than a volunteer. Ask yourself why do people volunteer when they can instead work and get more money and help australain chess

people can be so narrowminded

You cannot be serious??

To suggest that someone walking into Cordover's/Parr's/Jone's etc and buying a book is doing the same for chess as the Malitis, Rudzitis, Koshnitsky or even Jammo have done is completely ludicruous and I am convinced you are just trying to rock the boat as is AR.
However if that is what feeds your ego then munch away, but I think those mushroom appear to have some mystical magicial powers

peanbrain
17-03-2004, 09:53 PM
I would actually be pretty pissed off at this, except I became convinced after that post of yours when your vote didn't get counted for best post, that you couldn't be for real. No-one could be that stupid! :p

Actually I've finally figured it out .... chesslover is really george bush junior!!
good little george enjoys chess so much that he used torre attack on Iraq just to make his games more real. Read other threads written by chesslover and you can find traces of bush all over.

skip to my lou
17-03-2004, 09:57 PM
I agree with arosar. All my work for websites in chess used to be volunteer work. Didn't work out at all.

Bill Gletsos
17-03-2004, 10:24 PM
You cannot be serious??

To suggest that someone walking into Cordover's/Parr's/Jone's etc and buying a book is doing the same for chess as the Malitis, Rudzitis, Koshnitsky or even Jammo have done is completely ludicruous and I am convinced you are just trying to rock the boat as is AR.
However if that is what feeds your ego then munch away, but I think those mushroom appear to have some mystical magicial powers
Unfortunately CL is just being a total goose, so you can safely dismiss his opinion. Likewise AR's total dismissal of volunteers is just plain stupid.

Now, isnt it amazing that those that do absolutely nothing for Australian chess are the first to attack volunteers.

Let me suggest to you freeloaders that the reason people volunteer their services is because they believe that they get something out of chess(it varies for different people) and that therefore because they can they decide to put something back into the chess scene. Volunteers, volunteer you morons because they want to make a contribution.

Of couse some of us could charge at our usual rate of between $75-$200/hr but neither the state associations nor the ACF could afford to pay.

Imagine for example, if the ACF was charged by the national ratings officers
for their time, services and experise and the ACF Council says, hey you guys should work out whats wrong with the ACT junior ratings. Yeah no problem we say, we will get right on it and we will charge on a time an materials basis at the bargain price of $100/hr. Of course we cannot determine at this stage how many hours it will take, but it will be at least 200.
Guess what. You would still be waiting, because the ACF would never pay that sort of money, and if they did, all you morons would be attacking them for wasting money.

Now the same is true of the time contributed by Paul B on the web page and all the other volunteers in their respective positions, from those that volunteer at their clubs to those that do so at the state and national level.

Bill Gletsos
17-03-2004, 10:28 PM
I would actually be pretty pissed off at this, except I became convinced after that post of yours when your vote didn't get counted for best post, that you couldn't be for real. No-one could be that stupid! :p
I can see the words goose and moron at some stage becoming part of your vocabulary. ;)

Bill Gletsos
17-03-2004, 10:31 PM
I agree with arosar. All my work for websites in chess used to be volunteer work. Didn't work out at all.
Volunteers have to be able to handle criticism, especially from the morons.
You have to treat it like water of a ducks back(or maybe that should be geese). ;)

skip to my lou
18-03-2004, 12:49 AM
Its not just the criticism. Its more complicated than that. Its about "interest" and "encouraging" volunteers that are already there, not trying to get new ones.

arosar
18-03-2004, 08:11 AM
You cannot be serious??

Well, OK....maybe he went too far with that but it's easy to see his point. I submit to you that most people who 'play' chess, or to put it another way, 'patronise' your tournaments are doing something that supports chess. This mob don't do admin work/volunteering. Why should their commitment be any less than these so called martyr volunteers? See, it upsets me that we have this cabal of people like Paul S, gray, jenni, et al who always make themselves out as if they're freakin lambs to the slaughter; always yappin' on about they do all the hard work and no one else, this and that, FMD(!) - gimme a f**ken break!! Mate if these people volunteer, good luck to 'em. The first I wanna say, leave the rest of us alone and don't make yourselves out like you're MFking saints for chrissakes. Second, I just about reckon that we have a mendicant culture overall and this holds progress down complete. Amen!

AR

arosar
18-03-2004, 08:17 AM
Volunteers, volunteer you morons because they want to make a contribution

And good luck to youse, well done, slaps on the back and all that. Problem with this Reverend is that an over-reliance on volunteers leads to problems of accountability. But I'm not even especially concerned about that in practice cos I know youse blokes do a good job anyways. What upsets me is that the likes of youse make yourselves like your God's gift to the lot of us. I'll have to have the friggin' pope beatify the rest of youse you b*as*tards.

AR

jenni
18-03-2004, 08:38 AM
We have worked out a user pays system is junior chess in the ACT. Except we've done it by making "volunteering" a little bit less voluntary, rather than making them pay hard cash.

Turning up and paying to play at a club is obviously of value, but whether AR likes it or not, if all the volunteers went on strike, there wouldn't be a club or a tournament or ratings or whatever - even if he was spending mega dollars at a bookshop. If we looked at total cost recovery and a decent profit to the organisers of a club, membership would probably rise to thousands of dollars a year for a club. (remember it all flows down - The ACF peole have to get paid, Bill and Graham have to get paid for the ratings, all the way down the line). Chess would become even smaller than the already small activity it is in Australia.

Let me say once again I don't consider myself a saint or a martyr - I do love what I do, which is partly why I do it. The other part is because I have seen my children benefit enormously and I want to repay that benefit.

However I do get annoyed with freeloaders - the ones that turn up comp after comp in the junior environment and dump their kids and run - and leave you standing for an hour after a comp has finished looking after their kids, because they are too busy to get there on time to pick them up etc etc etc. So finally we decided in the ACT that we would make doing some job compulsory if you wanted to have a kid in the Development Squad.

If you didn't want to do the work that's fine - your choice. We have had a few who opted out of the Dev Squad, because of it, but not many. Most of the ones who were forced into doing something actually found they liked it and are now doing more. If you are not up to Dev squad level yet, then you can still turn up and get all the benefits without doing anything, because you are viewed as in the transient/beginner level. However if you and your child have made enough of a commitment to chess that you want to benefit from all the extras, then there is no more freeloading!

It seems to me that AR's aggression hides a guilty conscience! :p

Ian Rout
18-03-2004, 08:45 AM
AR's model is interesting. Instead of paying $50 for a weekender people would pay say $80 and the extra money would be paid to the organisers/helpers.

Where would players get this extra money for entries from? From being paid when they were the organisers. Alternatively those who preferred not to work and just pay out the extra could do so, as opposed to people neither putting in the work nor paying. Or people with no interest in playing could do the organising for profit. So everybody wins.

I don't see anything wrong with the theory. Where I would expect it to break down is in practice. All that extra financial juggling and supervising employees imposes a much greater management load on the organiser, not to mention the legalities involved when people are doing things for payment. Costs go through the roof, entry fees go up. Many chess players are on fixed or low incomes so can't or won't pay the higher entries. Finally a group of players observes that if they just rent a hall and do the legwork themselves they can put on a better tournament for half the cost.

shaun
18-03-2004, 09:28 PM
Well, OK....maybe he went too far with that but it's easy to see his point. I submit to you that most people who 'play' chess, or to put it another way, 'patronise' your tournaments are doing something that supports chess. This mob don't do admin work/volunteering. Why should their commitment be any less than these so called martyr volunteers? See, it upsets me that we have this cabal of people like Paul S, gray, jenni, et al who always make themselves out as if they're freakin lambs to the slaughter; always yappin' on about they do all the hard work and no one else, this and that, FMD(!) - gimme a f**ken break!! Mate if these people volunteer, good luck to 'em. The first I wanna say, leave the rest of us alone and don't make yourselves out like you're MFking saints for chrissakes. Second, I just about reckon that we have a mendicant culture overall and this holds progress down complete. Amen!

AR

You opinion would count for more than squat if you did more than just criticise people who support chess without expecting reward.
Case in point: Australian Chess Forum. Granted you did subscribe for 1 year (IIRC), but I would have thought with your theories about what is holding Australian Chess back, you would have supported this "for-profit" venture with a greater degree of enthusiasm.

arosar
19-03-2004, 08:07 AM
How else could I have supported your mag then? Now I gotta admit here, I recall in one NSWCA AGM I expressed the opinion that the NSWCA shouldn't have anything to do with the ACF mag cos at that time I believed that the organisation, NSWCA, shouldn't be associated with the your publication; but I, as an individual subscriber, had no problems whatsoever with the idea of buying your product.

Now listen, I gots no beef with volunteers or even a special prob with the notion of volunteering a such really insofar as this is practiced in chess circles. I just get sick and tired of this ilk of people who act like forlorn heroes. What the hell do youse all want - a freaking Victoria Cross? And second, I reckon that there's a particular smell about basically using people's special talent with zero reward (other than your own satisfaction I s'pose).

AR

jase
19-03-2004, 09:37 AM
Amiel has a previous life as a volunteer; I recall him being on the Council of the NSWCA.

I thought it was good to have someone like him on the Council, as it's often a bit stale. However the consistent opinion seemed to be that he did didly squat. Not being on the Council, or closely tied to what they're doing, I kept an open mind about Amiel's contributions, and even went to the trouble of looking up the minutes of the AGM to read his annual report regarding his duties. It read "No Report Submitted".

arosar
19-03-2004, 09:51 AM
Are you a hero too jase? I had nothing to report f**k ya - no excuses OK! Anyways, I coulda sworn I submitted one or two reports throughout me term. Did a bit of mail duties I seem to remember.

AR

ursogr8
19-03-2004, 10:07 AM
How else could I have supported your mag then? Now I gotta admit here, I recall in one NSWCA AGM I expressed the opinion that the NSWCA shouldn't have anything to do with the ACF mag cos at that time I believed that the organisation, NSWCA, shouldn't be associated with the your publication; but I, as an individual subscriber, had no problems whatsoever with the idea of buying your product.

Now listen, I gots no beef with volunteers or even a special prob with the notion of volunteering a such really insofar as this is practiced in chess circles. I just get sick and tired of this ilk of people who act like forlorn heroes. What the hell do youse all want - a freaking Victoria Cross? And second, I reckon that there's a particular smell about basically using people's special talent with zero reward (other than your own satisfaction I s'pose).

AR
Hey Amiel,

What's this Victoria Cross business?
We have got rid of all our 'crossness', and have reconciliation instead.
fg7, WBA, jammo, cg.........they have all worked it out. :D

starter

jase
19-03-2004, 10:55 AM
Are you a hero too jase? I had nothing to report f**k ya - no excuses OK!

In terms of volunteering, I could do more than I am currently. I am very appreciative of all the volunteer hours put in by members of the chess community, as with other sporting communities I have involvement in [recently cricket; soccer as of this Sunday, when for the first time since 1984, I'm lacing up the boots!].

Volunteering is the lifeblood of the community - it's present in the schools I teach in, the sports I play [I swam the Cole Classic this year, and the entire course was manned by volunteer 'clubbies' to monitor safety, keep swimmers on track, etc etc]


What upsets me is that the likes of youse make yourselves like your God's gift to the lot of us.
...
I just get sick and tired of this ilk of people who act like forlorn heroes.


I have just completed a soccer Coaching course [Junior Licence - the course was 3 hours a night over 4 nights]. Great course, which has motivated me to not only coach next term, but also play. At the end of the course, our instructor [Charlie, 50, Scottish, great bloke, as fit as a fiddle] said something like 'the greatest reward you'll all get out of this is if at the end of the season, win lose or draw, your team say they want you to be their coach again next year'.

So yes, volunteers like to feel appreciated, and to feel that they are making a positive contribution. I understand the point you make Amiel, and it's a valid one, but I also concur with jenni that you seem to have a bit of a guilty conscience!

Paul S
20-03-2004, 01:13 PM
How else could I have supported your mag then? Now I gotta admit here, I recall in one NSWCA AGM I expressed the opinion that the NSWCA shouldn't have anything to do with the ACF mag cos at that time I believed that the organisation, NSWCA, shouldn't be associated with the your publication; but I, as an individual subscriber, had no problems whatsoever with the idea of buying your product.


What the f*** is your problem? :evil: :mad: The NSWCA did not support (or "unsupport") Shaun Press' (and Paul Dunn's) magazine (ACFo).

I considered that the opportunity for NSWCA members to have the OPTION of subscribing to ACFo (at a discounted rate) was a good idea. NSWCA members had the OPTION of getting ACFo for (from memory) $40 per year instead of the standard $50 per year. As I saw it "everybody won" from this arrangement. ACFO got more subscribers, NSWCA members (who took up the option) got a chess magazine at a disounted rate, and a (albeit small) "reward" (incentive) was provided for people to become members of the NSWCA.


Now listen, I gots no beef with volunteers or even a special prob with the notion of volunteering a such really insofar as this is practiced in chess circles. I just get sick and tired of this ilk of people who act like forlorn heroes. What the hell do youse all want - a freaking Victoria Cross? And second, I reckon that there's a particular smell about basically using people's special talent with zero reward (other than your own satisfaction I s'pose).

I don't want a Victoria Cross, and I'm sure neither do other chess volunteers. Even if I did get a VC, I would NOT have deserved one - IMHO the VC should be reserved for war heroes.

I have on occasion on this BB raised the issue of lack of volunteers in chess admin, simply because it is (IMHO) the biggest problem in Australian Chess. When I have made these points I have stated that (while I make a useful contribution) my "volunteer chess work" pales into insignificance compared to a lot of other people.

As for myself, I just get sick and tired of this ilk of people (chess players) who just expect service to be provided to them yet contribute absolutely NOTHING themselves. Yet these people have the time (and availability) to contribute to chess admin, but choose instead to just whinge and criticise at those who actually ARE making a USEFUL contribution towards Australian chess. With so many of this ilk of people around, is it any wonder that a lot of "chess admin people" get p***** off after a while and just give up in disgust?

Rincewind
20-03-2004, 01:28 PM
I agree with Paul. It doesn't even need to be that big a commitment. I was surprised when I turned up for a small friendly lightening tournament in Sydney. Me and another guy from Wollongong helped set up the boards and sets because otherwise PC would have had to do them all by himself. Very few, if any, of the local offered the slightest assistence. Most waited for a set to bet set up in front of them and then proceeded to play practice games rather than even make the slightest contribution. Remember this was a small friendly tournament with a nominal entry fee!

Also between rounds I had to set up the board on at least one occasion because neither of the players from that board on the previous round had bothered to reset the pieces after their game.

I think small things like this could help the more serious volunteers and not make them feel like martyrs. But with many players with a zero tolerence to volunteering (or even helping out) it is no wonder the small number of committed volunteer administrators occasionally get jack of it.

On the other side of the coin I did note that some of the Sydney guys helped out with Matt running his CM tournament last year, so you can't be all bad. ;)

arosar
20-03-2004, 01:57 PM
What the f*** is your problem? :evil: :mad: The NSWCA did not support (or "unsupport") Shaun Press' (and Paul Dunn's) magazine (ACFo).

Don't swear Paulie. It's not you. I can outswear you anyday. I had a particular perception of the ACFo at that particular time. Hence, my view then.


Even if I did get a VC, I would NOT have deserved one...

Yeah...you reckon? You're a real genius Paulie.


. . . who just expect service to be provided to them yet who have time (and availability) to contribute to chess admin . . .

Yeah? And how do you know that? Listen, it's easy to see that you're unhappy about the lack of help in basic chores: setting up boards, clocks, cleaning tables by removing their food items, etc. etc. I sympathise with this. But to extend that unhappiness by demanding that other people partake in chess admin - you're making a mistake. You're talking about a commitment. You're talking about time. You're talking about money. We ain't all interested! Understand? Mate - I know you do good work. Well done and all that. But please, please, dude, don't make yourself out to be some hero. And next time you need help - how's about asking for it? Surely you're not that socially inept? Or are you?

AR

Paul S
20-03-2004, 02:02 PM
I agree with Paul. It doesn't even need to be that big a commitment. I was surprised when I turned up for a small friendly lightening tournament in Sydney. Me and another guy from Wollongong helped set up the boards and sets because otherwise PC would have had to do them all by himself. Very few, if any, of the local offered the slightest assistence. Most waited for a set to bet set up in front of them and then proceeded to play practice games rather than even make the slightest contribution. Remember this was a small friendly tournament with a nominal entry fee!

Also between rounds I had to set up the board on at least one occasion because neither of the players from that board on the previous round had bothered to reset the pieces after their game.

I think small things like this could help the more serious volunteers and not make them feel like martyrs. But with many players with a zero tolerence to volunteering (or even helping out) it is no wonder the small number of committed volunteer administrators occasionally get jack of it.

On the other side of the coin I did note that some of the Sydney guys helped out with Matt running his CM tournament last year, so you can't be all bad. ;)

Very good coments, Barry.

Indeed, last year (2003) I played in the NSW Championships for the first time. During the course of this 9 weeks tournament it was always Norm Greenwood, Tom Accola and myself who would set up the equipment, while others would play social games (or do other things) instead (although on about 2 of the 9 weeks others also did a bit of assistance). I find this sort of thing off-putting, and when I see things like this occur it puts me off playing in weekend chess competitions - indeed I haven't played in any weekenders since the NSW Championships (although I would have played in the 2004 Australia Day Weekender if the time limits were more reasonable - see my posts in that thread - I won't rehash them here).

Yes, small things (eg setting up pieces) do help. The saying "many hands make light work" rings true, but more importantly it does help the "more serious volunteers" to feel that they are not being taken advantage of too much (and thus minimises the risk of them "getting jack of it" after a while and giving up altogether).

Paul S
20-03-2004, 02:18 PM
Yeah? And how do you know that? Listen, it's easy to see that you're unhappy about the lack of help in basic chores: setting up boards, clocks, cleaning tables by removing their food items, etc. etc. I sympathise with this. But to extend that unhappiness by demanding that other people partake in chess admin - you're making a mistake. You're talking about a commitment. You're talking about time. You're talking about money. We ain't all interested! Understand? Mate - I know you do good work. Well done and all that. But please, please, dude, don't make yourself out to be some hero. And next time you need help - how's about asking for it? Surely you're not that socially inept? Or are you?

At Canterbury others do the setting up (although I do a lot of the packing up).

All I'm demanding is that others do their fair share. Is there something wrong with that?

I'm not interested in chess admin either! Let me clarify this. If someone else wanted to be the main organiser at Canterbury (and/or Treasurer at St George) I would gladly say "here you are, its all yours"! I would be quite content to be a "self centered chess player contributing nothing towards chess admin"! The reality, however is that nobody else is prepared to do these tasks! What is better, having nobody doing them or to have a "less than ideal person such as myself" doing them?

IMHO I do NOT intentionally make myself out to be a "chess admin superhero". In fact I have acknowldged a few times on this BB that the "chess admin superheroes" are those whose contribution to chess admin FAR exceeds mine (eg Billl Gletsos, Norm Greenwood, Peter Cassetari, George Howard etc etc).

Yes, I'll admit my social skills are "less than ideal". Yet its also true that its better to have someone with "less than ideal social skills" doing the necessary chess admin work than nobody at all!!!

shaun
20-03-2004, 05:35 PM
How else could I have supported your mag then? Now I gotta admit here, I recall in one NSWCA AGM I expressed the opinion that the NSWCA shouldn't have anything to do with the ACF mag cos at that time I believed that the organisation, NSWCA, shouldn't be associated with the your publication; but I, as an individual subscriber, had no problems whatsoever with the idea of buying your product.
AR

"By subscribing for it for more than 12 months" would be the most obvious answer. Interestingly enough a number of committed subscribers to the magazine were the very volunteers that you bag, but to most people the causal link is fairly apparent.
But based on you comments on this thread I have a question: Given you don't like the people who volunteer, or even the notion of volunteer based organisations, but at the same time don't like commercial chess activities either, what differentiates you from the garden variety "me-me-me" chess player? The obvious chip on your shoulder or something else?

Alan Shore
20-03-2004, 06:23 PM
I may just add in here between the fists of fury.. I have worked as a volunteer, and have been on my state's chess council but it gets a bit tiresome working for nothing when there are those directly around me who are just completely profiteering from doing similar jobs. So you can either have a go at those corrupt treasurers/tournament organisers who pocket a whole heap of funds that no one really questions while the purist volunteers get nothing, or you can compliment these individuals for having the business sense to make a cash out of the chess community. How do you all stand on this? Personally, my ethics would see me disliking the profiteers - which is why I discontinued my role as a volunteer. Of course as soon as you start raising questions you get all sorts of ambiguity and innunedo as to where the funds are really distributed - I know better though.

Garvinator
20-03-2004, 08:26 PM
bruce, i have sent you a pm, i hope you got it.

Alan Shore
20-03-2004, 09:36 PM
Yep, got it, sent you a reply just now.

PHAT
21-03-2004, 06:04 AM
... are just completely profiteering ... corrupt treasurers/tournament organisers who pocket a whole heap of funds ... start raising questions you get all sorts of ambiguity and innunedo as to where the funds are really distributed - I know better though.

:eek: I have heard scuttlebut of such problems from other sources. Are you saying that they are for real?

Alan Shore
21-03-2004, 08:04 AM
There's no way I'd make any real accusations without proof first.. but I would like some balance sheets to be made public.. of tournaments too.

firegoat7
21-03-2004, 12:36 PM
Ha Ha AR coping some flack,

Though I would add my 2 cents worth.

Volunteering is generally good. It increases social worth and emphasis' the human qualities of being human. Volunteering ought to be encouraged. People should share the burden of responsibility in regards to volunteering.

Volunteering can however be bad. I think that this does happen alot and is often misunderstood.

Firstly, Individuals who carry to much of a workload often fall for a Martyr complex. They simply negate all reasonable suggestions simply because they feel that those who raise questions have no right to do so. This type of personal power can become malignant because it often prevents new volunteers from stepping forward.

Secondly, Some volunteers are in it for the wrong reasons. They simply desire power in a personal form. This can be quite a destructive tendency and often destroys a particular chess scene. Their are numerous cases of this sort of behaviour in the chess world. Campomanes,Needleman and Smith etc etc.

On the other hand privatisation is no guarantee of quality. Whilst self interest can and often does make sense, it often has the reverse effect.
A point to consider might be Raymond Keene's involvement in Shorts world title bid. While undoubtly it may be great that Britain got to have a world championship match in London. It is no less equally true that the world championship title itself suffered a severe setback with the split caused by this match.

Nevertheless in todays C@pitalistic world some form of privatisation may be a necessary evil, that chess in Australia at least has appeared not to address.

However I do have my doubts. Unlike most cultural pursuits chessplayers can and often do play over periods of up to 50 years. If this is recognised as a fact then it would appear that chess is capable of maintaining its own history. Unlike smaller private companies who often depend on individual personalities to maintain their momentum. Of course if we want chess institutions to be "Corpor@te" identities then this might be another issue.

It seems then that the structure of a corporation could be a major point in deciding whether any institution should be supported on a volunteer basis by individual members. Is the business privately owned or a NGO for example.

IMO everybody contributing a little bit of volunteering time, mixed in with accountable private interests ought to ensure enough diversity to enable chess to flourish.

Cheers FG7

jase
21-03-2004, 01:03 PM
Whilst I am practically on auto-pilot to ridicule/dismiss/oppose anything you post here FG7, I must momentarily put this instinct on hold.

Excellent points, well stated.

jenni
21-03-2004, 01:39 PM
I may just add in here between the fists of fury.. I have worked as a volunteer, and have been on my state's chess council but it gets a bit tiresome working for nothing when there are those directly around me who are just completely profiteering from doing similar jobs. So you can either have a go at those corrupt treasurers/tournament organisers who pocket a whole heap of funds that no one really questions while the purist volunteers get nothing, or you can compliment these individuals for having the business sense to make a cash out of the chess community. How do you all stand on this? Personally, my ethics would see me disliking the profiteers - which is why I discontinued my role as a volunteer. Of course as soon as you start raising questions you get all sorts of ambiguity and innunedo as to where the funds are really distributed - I know better though.

I have heard similar rumours (there were even accusations in the ACT some years ago). We have introduced fairly strict accountability in the Junior Chess league. Tournament organisers collect money and deposit it and then give a report to the treasurer who checks it. The annual accounts are audited by an independent accountant (i.e one who has nothing to do with the chess community). I suppose it is possible for someone to slip $20 in their pocket out of sale of pizza lunches or something like that, but there is no way any large amounts of money can be diverted to a particular person.

We do not pay for venues (apart from an annual fee for our Chess Centre) or DOP's (apart from giving them free lunch). The only people who "profit" from the JCL are the coaches, who get paid for Dev Squad, Challenge Squad and Dev days and really the fees are at the low end.

I could see that if all the executive positions were held by people who were colluding with each other, then it would still be easy to divert money, but at the moment that is not happening and hopefully never will.

Geoff Butler
21-03-2004, 01:43 PM
I agree with "jase" wholeheartedly... your post is an excellent one FG7. I particularly agree with your stated reasons as to why some people volunteer. I have seen, are seeing... and will no doubt continue to see them in action.

Garvinator
21-03-2004, 04:45 PM
Ha Ha AR coping some flack,

Though I would add my 2 cents worth.

Volunteering is generally good. It increases social worth and emphasis' the human qualities of being human. Volunteering ought to be encouraged. People should share the burden of responsibility in regards to volunteering.

Volunteering can however be bad. I think that this does happen alot and is often misunderstood.

Firstly, Individuals who carry to much of a workload often fall for a Martyr complex. They simply negate all reasonable suggestions simply because they feel that those who raise questions have no right to do so. This type of personal power can become malignant because it often prevents new volunteers from stepping forward.

Secondly, Some volunteers are in it for the wrong reasons. They simply desire power in a personal form. This can be quite a destructive tendency and often destroys a particular chess scene. Their are numerous cases of this sort of behaviour in the chess world. Campomanes,Needleman and Smith etc etc.

On the other hand privatisation is no guarantee of quality. Whilst self interest can and often does make sense, it often has the reverse effect.
A point to consider might be Raymond Keene's involvement in Shorts world title bid. While undoubtly it may be great that Britain got to have a world championship match in London. It is no less equally true that the world championship title itself suffered a severe setback with the split caused by this match.

Nevertheless in todays C@pitalistic world some form of privatisation may be a necessary evil, that chess in Australia at least has appeared not to address.

However I do have my doubts. Unlike most cultural pursuits chessplayers can and often do play over periods of up to 50 years. If this is recognised as a fact then it would appear that chess is capable of maintaining its own history. Unlike smaller private companies who often depend on individual personalities to maintain their momentum. Of course if we want chess institutions to be "Corpor@te" identities then this might be another issue.

It seems then that the structure of a corporation could be a major point in deciding whether any institution should be supported on a volunteer basis by individual members. Is the business privately owned or a NGO for example.

IMO everybody contributing a little bit of volunteering time, mixed in with accountable private interests ought to ensure enough diversity to enable chess to flourish.

Cheers FG7
perhaps fg7 has a contender for best post of 2004 :uhoh: :eh:

eclectic
21-03-2004, 06:09 PM
i have no objection to volunteering ...

when it is actually volunteering ...

and not something tied into a centrelink mutual obligation contract ...

with the veiled threat that if you do not "volunteer" your benefits get cut off

...

comprehende ?

eclectic

ursogr8
21-03-2004, 07:14 PM
i have no objection to volunteering ...

when it is actually volunteering ...

and not something tied into a centrelink mutual obligation contract ...

with the veiled threat that if you do not "volunteer" your benefits get cut off

...

comprehende ?

eclectic

hi eclectic

Actually, I don't comprehende.

'Volunteer', I understand. That is where you do something for free because you want to.

'Mutual obligation', I understand is probably where you agree that as a consequence of receiving something you agree to do a chore for some-one. But given that you can always decline the deal how can there be a threat, veiled or otherwise.

yours, in hope of enlightenment
starter

eclectic
21-03-2004, 07:40 PM
hi eclectic

Actually, I don't comprehende.

'Volunteer', I understand. That is where you do something for free because you want to.

'Mutual obligation', I understand is probably where you agree that as a consequence of receiving something you agree to do a chore for some-one. But given that you can always decline the deal how can there be a threat, veiled or otherwise.

yours, in hope of enlightenment
starter
starter,

in an attempt to resocialise me centrelink "encouraged" me to undertake some volunteer activity. i chose one which i thought would suit me. however the experience turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. most likely this is due to many years of unemployment with the result that i am now simply too much of a loner and unable to work with others in a team context

for me volunteering in a mutual obligation context meant dancing to a tune which i liked before i had to dance to one of theirs which i didn't

eclectic

Alan Shore
21-03-2004, 08:10 PM
I hate centrelink with a passion. They have completely screwed me over on so many occasions...

Garvinator
21-03-2004, 08:51 PM
i have no objection to volunteering ...

when it is actually volunteering ...

and not something tied into a centrelink mutual obligation contract ...

with the veiled threat that if you do not "volunteer" your benefits get cut off

...

comprehende ?

eclectic
y was i singled out when i was just making a comment about fg7's post?

eclectic
21-03-2004, 09:06 PM
y was i singled out when i was just making a comment about fg7's post?
quote removed ... meant to use quick reply button

arosar
22-03-2004, 08:05 AM
"By subscribing for it for more than 12 months" would be the most obvious answer.

No doubt your records indicate a formal subscription by me of 12 months, but, in fact, I have bought virtually every single issue.


Given you don't like the people who volunteer, or even the notion of volunteer based organisations, but at the same time don't like commercial chess activities either, . . .

Don't mispresent me. It's not that I don't like 'em volunteers - only the small segment who make themselves out to be heroes and only that specific behavour. Being a volunteer is fine. Being a hero, that's quite another.

AR

arosar
22-03-2004, 08:39 AM
Firstly, Individuals who carry to much of a workload often fall for a Martyr complex. They simply negate all reasonable suggestions simply because they feel that those who raise questions have no right to do so. This type of personal power can become malignant because it often prevents new volunteers from stepping forward.

Athough you have added your touch to my use of 'martyr', I like this observation and I agree with it. All I was initially suggesting with martyr was that the likes of Paulie make themselves out to be some persecuted believers.


. . . They simply desire power in a personal form. This can be quite a destructive tendency and often destroys a particular chess scene. Their are numerous cases of this sort of behaviour in the chess world. Campomanes,Needleman and Smith etc etc.

Don't the constitutions of the various bodies have a limitation on the number of terms? (Yeah, yeah...if you do that, you'll run out of volunteers, right?)


Nevertheless in todays C@pitalistic world some form of privatisation may be a necessary evil . . .

Now I'm very curious about what exactly you're talking about. Give me an example of this evil and how is it evil? Don't be afraid.


IMO everybody contributing a little bit of volunteering time, mixed in with accountable private interests ought to ensure enough diversity to enable chess to flourish.

Amen.

AR

jenni
22-03-2004, 08:39 AM
No doubt your records indicate a formal subscription by me of 12 months, but, in fact, I have bought virtually every single issue.



Don't mispresent me. It's not that I don't like 'em volunteers - only the small segment who make themselves out to be heroes and only that specific behavour. Being a volunteer is fine. Being a hero, that's quite another.

AR

Well I haven't seen a single post on here where anyone makes themselves out to be a hero - maybe a level of frustration sometimes because people can
see how much more could be achieved with more help.

Maybe it might be helpful to this discussion if AR could round up a series of quotes from posts that have irritated him, because people are making themselves out to be heroes and martyrs. If it is happening (and it would appear that I am one of the main offenders), then I would like to see how I am doing it, so that I can rephrase my posts in future.

I have come across many people who do end up becoming control freaks and wanting to only do it their way (I have to continually rap myself over the knuckles when someone suggests something new!) It is somtimes hard to work out the difference between a change that is losing something that is fundamentally good and a change that is different but just as good or even better.

ursogr8
22-03-2004, 09:51 AM
I agree with Paul. It doesn't even need to be that big a commitment. I was surprised when I turned up for a small friendly lightening tournament in Sydney. Me and another guy from Wollongong helped set up the boards and sets because otherwise PC would have had to do them all by himself. Very few, if any, of the local offered the slightest assistence. Most waited for a set to bet set up in front of them and then proceeded to play practice games rather than even make the slightest contribution. Remember this was a small friendly tournament with a nominal entry fee!

Also between rounds I had to set up the board on at least one occasion because neither of the players from that board on the previous round had bothered to reset the pieces after their game.

I think small things like this could help the more serious volunteers and not make them feel like martyrs. But with many players with a zero tolerence to volunteering (or even helping out) it is no wonder the small number of committed volunteer administrators occasionally get jack of it.

On the other side of the coin I did note that some of the Sydney guys helped out with Matt running his CM tournament last year, so you can't be all bad. ;)

We ran an Allegro and coaching from 1.30am to 6pm yesterday. Field size was 70+.
Let me count the volunteers as they arrived

Marieke..set up and chairs
Gerrit..tables and DOP all day
Trevor..taking money
Phillip..setup new computer
Aaron..pieces set-up
Tom..pairings input
Howard..opening address
Mary..assist taking money; WHJ banking
Celia..purchased and ran door prizes
Mr Fan..results
Kerrie..pre-publicity
Bill..pre-publicity
Anna, Erika...canteen
Marcus..bookstall
Geoff, Denis ..coaching
Multiple..advising new parents re options
David..stacking away
Many..cleanup


Gee. It takes a bit doesn't it. :hmm:
And every little bit helps.

starter

arosar
22-03-2004, 10:16 AM
starter, mate, you seem like a calm person, so I wish to pose this bit of a question to you.

Recognising the holiness and nobility of your efforts as a chess organiser, we are grateful, and for which it is also recognised that you suffer greatly in 'opportunity cost', is it not fair for we players to pay you our entry fee and to do no more than play and enjoy each other's company?

AR

ursogr8
22-03-2004, 10:41 AM
starter, mate, you seem like a calm person, so I wish to pose this bit of a question to you.

Recognising the holiness and nobility of your efforts as a chess organiser, we are grateful, and for which it is also recognised that you suffer greatly in 'opportunity cost', is it not fair for we players to pay you our entry fee and to do no more than play and enjoy each other's company?

AR

AR
I have resisted all efforts so far on this core question you raise. Your question is clear; I just don't know the answer.

I guess you were pricked by my post listing all the folks who helped in our ALLEGRO yesterday. And earlier posters certainly had a few shots at your conscience.
What I didn't reveal in my list is that some are benefitting commercially from their 'volunteering'.
The bookstall. >> sales margin
The canteen roster >> free membership
The pairings man >> Centrelink giveback

And some just relieve boredom or like
The shadow banker >> gets work experience


And some just are altuistic
And some just like hanging out with good chess players.
And some don't have a wife.

So, I don't know the answer to you question. I just observe that everyone does a different deal.

starter

ps Actually, firegoats posts had some good stuff on this thread; maybe a re-read would give you absolution. ;)

arosar
22-03-2004, 11:01 AM
I guess you were pricked by my post listing all the folks who helped in our ALLEGRO yesterday. And earlier posters certainly had a few shots at your conscience.

My conscience is clear. As with most things in life I have simply chosen to pick a side. And I am most definitely on the side of the self-serving. It does not make quite a lot of sense to me to hand over my $100 for the entry fee, plus food and transport and the opportunity cost then to do that little bit of extra in 'volunteer' work.


And some don't have a wife.

In your estimation, would it be fair to add to your list: "And some don't have a LIFE"?


ps Actually, firegoats posts had some good stuff on this thread; maybe a re-read would give you absolution. ;)

I require no absolution for I have not sinned. I did once consider the righteous belief of [chess] volunteerism, but I woke up and saw the light. I blame another chess player for this.

AR

ursogr8
22-03-2004, 11:20 AM
My conscience is clear. As with most things in life I have simply chosen to pick a side.


Or maybe AR you have not met an organiser yet who has sussed out the button to press that will find you an irresistible task.




And I am most definitely on the side of the self-serving. It does not make quite a lot of sense to me to hand over my $100 for the entry fee, plus food and transport and the opportunity cost then to do that little bit of extra in 'volunteer' work.



In your estimation, would it be fair to add to your list: "And some don't have a LIFE"?



Feel free to add, AR. It was just musing, not an exhaustive list.




I require no absolution for I have not sinned. I did once consider the righteous belief of [chess] volunteerism, but I woke up and saw the light. I blame another chess player for this.

AR


No comment on this one AR because I fear Jeo. He might just declare this non-chess and bang goes our post count on this thread. :D

starter

arosar
22-03-2004, 11:43 AM
Or maybe AR you have not met an organiser yet who has sussed out the button to press that will find you an irresistible task.

I am afraid, sir, that for the righteous mob, my soul is damned. However, I am always up for shouting a few beers. Though that reminds me - you owe me two, don't you?

AR

ursogr8
22-03-2004, 11:53 AM
I am afraid, sir, that for the righteous mob, my soul is damned. However, I am always up for shouting a few beers. Though that reminds me - you owe me two, don't you?

AR

hi AR
Yes, I definitely owe you two beers. Mate, Box Hill is a dry area; perhaps the only dry municipality in the Continent. It's gunna be hard to shout.
It's one of those times that I wish I qualified for membership at MCC; now they have oodles of eateries and bars in Brunswick St and the passing crowd is entertainment in itself.
starter

jenni
22-03-2004, 01:06 PM
I require no absolution for I have not sinned. I did once consider the righteous belief of [chess] volunteerism, but I woke up and saw the light. I blame another chess player for this.

AR

Gosh!! This is almost like a soapy. First we have a rabid attack on volunteers by AR. Then it appears that in a previous life he was a volunteer. Now we learn that he was scarred for life by a fellow chess player - presumably a volunteer. And people say the BB is a boring waste of time - I can hardly wait for the next revelation.

arosar
22-03-2004, 01:48 PM
Oh you are such a gossip monger, aren't you woman? And Kerry Stead reckons I am! Anyways . . .


Now we learn that he was scarred for life by a fellow chess player - presumably a volunteer.

Yes!! He was. I tell you what though, a coupla days ago I spoke to another formerly prominent chess identity, also an ex-NSWCA councillor, who's equally tired and dismayed with the whole chess scene.


And people say the BB is a boring waste of time - I can hardly wait for the next revelation.

No, I didn't have a lover in the NSWCA when I was a councillor; I'm not gay; Bill isn't my illegitimate half-dad; I don't work for Mr. Parr; Escribano isn't my brother; and I am not chesslover.

AR

PHAT
22-03-2004, 02:57 PM
No, I didn't have a lover in the NSWCA when I was a councillor; I'm not gay; Bill isn't my illegitimate half-dad; I don't work for Mr. Parr; Escribano isn't my brother; and I am not chesslover

Ennui, thy name is arosar. I suppose that compiling the 2005 KINGS & QUEENS of CHESS CALENDER is going to take the tedium out of your life.

peanbrain
22-03-2004, 09:49 PM
My conscience is clear. As with most things in life I have simply chosen to pick a side. And I am most definitely on the side of the self-serving. It does not make quite a lot of sense to me to hand over my $100 for the entry fee, plus food and transport and the opportunity cost then to do that little bit of extra in 'volunteer' work.

AR

How about all these times you turned up in tournaments just to watch??
You certainly didn't pay any entry fee and didn't do jack so if that's not freeloading what is? :doh:

chesslover
23-03-2004, 06:11 PM
starter, mate, you seem like a calm person, so I wish to pose this bit of a question to you.

Recognising the holiness and nobility of your efforts as a chess organiser, we are grateful, and for which it is also recognised that you suffer greatly in 'opportunity cost', is it not fair for we players to pay you our entry fee and to do no more than play and enjoy each other's company?

AR

Arosar throughout this thread you have spoken words of wisdom and truth. I am glad there are others who think that the way these volunteers carry on is the be-all and end-all for chess.

Volunteers contribute to chess. So do players. so do chess businesses. so do people who by chess products and pay the entry fees. Without chess players or people who buy chess products chess will not exist as well. has anyone thought of that???????

I contribute by buying chess books and chess videos. I also where possibl;e buy things from a chess shop rather than a non chess shop. Last time I went to Parr's shop I bought a coke drink from him and not the 7-11 or other shops near Central. Small thing but shows how you can contribute to Australian chess in many ways.

Also I pay entry fees and I am comfortable with some of the entry fee being used to pay volunteers as well as DOP and prizemoney. I am also happy to pay a 10% volunteer tax for those who help out

People also should THINK why people work or volunteer. People do that for 2 reasons. It is for money or because they really like to do that thing. In the case where they really like to they do that for free and get satisfaction internally from that. That is good for them and good for others who they help out too.

But they should not carry on and pretend that it is a great sacrifice and how they are superior to others like arosar and me who contribute to chess in other ways and spend a lot of money on chess. If people did not spend money on chess or buy chess books then what would happen????? THINK about that before criticising others who do not volunteer

Garvinator
23-03-2004, 06:43 PM
Volunteers contribute to chess. So do players. so do chess businesses. so do people who by chess products and pay the entry fees. Without chess players or people who buy chess products chess will not exist as well. has anyone thought of that???????

chess business, can you plz define what you mean by chess business? do you mean the gardiner chess centre type or the type of business that sells chess books, sets etc, but does not run tournaments?


I contribute by buying chess books and chess videos. Please explain how you buying a chess books helps nswca run their council or helps to run a tournament? Buying a chess book does two things- 1) Improves your knowledge of the game 2) Makes a profit for the business. On point two, a business would not keep selling chess products if they had to do it at a loss, they do it cause they can make a profit from it.


Also I pay entry fees and I am comfortable with some of the entry fee being used to pay volunteers as well as DOP and prizemoney. I am also happy to pay a 10% volunteer tax for those who help out

easy to make this 10% claim when no one knows who you are :whistle:


People also should THINK why people work or volunteer. People do that for 2 reasons. It is for money or because they really like to do that thing. In the case where they really like to they do that for free and get satisfaction internally from that. That is good for them and good for others who they help out too.

people volunteer for a third reason, to make sure the work is done, they realise that the club is not working as it should, so they pitch in where they can. All it would take for most clubs to run well and get bigger is for a few more ppl to pitch in small amounts. I think that is why some of the harder working volunteers on here make such noise regarding this issue.

arosar
24-03-2004, 04:04 PM
On point two, a business would not keep selling chess products if they had to do it at a loss, they do it cause they can make a profit from it.

You're a very intelligent person, you know that?

CL is clearly of the view that CDS and ACE, say, are very much part of the chess scene. They provide chess products of all kinds. By engaging in an economic relationship with these two businesses, he partakes in the process of making them viable entities. Thus - CL believes, and rightly so, that he contributes to chess. I tend to agree.

AR

Alan Shore
24-03-2004, 06:27 PM
Does that make me a bastard who doesn't contribute to chess, simply because I don't waste my money on chess books when there's sufficient learning material to be found on the internet? I think not.

Garvinator
24-03-2004, 06:31 PM
Does that make me a bastard who doesn't contribute to chess, simply because I don't waste my money on chess books when there's sufficient learning material to be found on the internet? I think not.
i think cl and arosar would just say that you contribute to chess in a different way :owned:

Paul S
24-03-2004, 09:35 PM
Well I haven't seen a single post on here where anyone makes themselves out to be a hero

Neither have I.


maybe a level of frustration sometimes because people can see how much more could be achieved with more help.


Yes, frustration does build up after a while, due to seeing how much more COULD be achieved with more assistance (volunteering).



Maybe it might be helpful to this discussion if AR could round up a series of quotes from posts that have irritated him, because people are making themselves out to be heroes and martyrs.

Don't hold your breath!



If it is happening (and it would appear that I am one of the main offenders), then I would like to see how I am doing it, so that I can rephrase my posts in future.

It is NOT happening. Jenni, people like you who have made a significant contribution to Australian Chess have NOTHING to apologise for in this regard. In particular, people like you do NOT need to justify yourselves to people who have contributed NOTHING to chess admin. People like you do NOT need to justify yourself to people who just whinge and criticise but contibute nothing to chess themselves. In particular you do NOT need to justify your actions on this BB to people who claim that they "contribute" to Australian Chess by purchasing chess books etc which IMHO is really an activity that benefits only themselves and the retailer they buy the book/product from.

Jenni, there is NO NEED for you to rephrase your posts just to try to appease people who contribute NOTHING toward Australian Chess.

Garvinator
24-03-2004, 09:57 PM
Jenni, there is NO NEED for you to rephrase your posts just to try to appease people who contribute NOTHING toward Australian Chess.
paul s, do you mind if i suggest that you could rephrase your criticisms by saying that they contribute nothing to chess administration. Players play in tournament, so they are contributing to australian chess, players buy books- that is contributing to australian chess. But neither of these is contributing to chess administration. Just a thought :hmm:

Paul S
24-03-2004, 10:01 PM
paul s, do you mind if i suggest that you could rephrase your criticisms by saying that they contribute nothing to chess administration. Players play in tournament, so they are contributing to australian chess, players buy books- that is contributing to australian chess. But neither of these is contributing to chess administration. Just a thought :hmm:

Fair comment, ggrayggray.

I did NOT have you in mind when I made my post. In fact I acknowledge that you are presently making a useful contribution with your assistance to Bob Keast with the 2004 Grand Prix.

When I made my post I had others in mind!!! I had in mind people who just continually whinge, criticise and find fault with those who are actually DOING something useful, yet at the same time do NOTHING useful themselves!!!

Garvinator
24-03-2004, 10:04 PM
Fair comment, ggrayggray.

I did NOT have you in mind when I made my post. In fact I acknowledge that you are presently making a useful contribution with your assistance to Bob Keast with the 2004 Grand Prix.

When I made my post I had others in mind!!!
I didnt even think that your swipe was at me :eek: I have a very good idea who are the rabbits in your spotlight, but i thought by making that small change, it might be a bit easier to make a more convincing case for your arguments, which I do agree with.

But since you have brought up my involvement in chess admin ;) also i am a recently appointed delegate for my club and also i help out at the club with running some of the things that go on there, eg watching games when the arbiter cant be everywhere (after my game has finished of course ;)

Paul S
24-03-2004, 10:10 PM
No problem, ggrayggray. :lol: You're OK!

Indeed, I had other "rabbits" in my sights!

arosar
25-03-2004, 08:00 AM
Hilarious!! As I was reading these 2 dudes' exchanges I happened to see the words of wisdom above saying something like: "how do you combat two bishops?" (or something like that. Perhaps we can make gray and Paul S, bishop Paul and bishop gray. You boys can work your way up to 'Defender of the Faith'.

Now Paul...you really do need to get a hold of yourself. You're all upset. I mean, 'contributed nothing'?? Ever? Really?

AR

samspade
25-03-2004, 09:16 AM
please explain I am genuinely trying to understand but having a lot of trouble. Tell me how you would run (for e,g,) Doeberl without any volunteers?
an extremely good point

samspade
25-03-2004, 09:22 AM
Unfortunately CL is just being a total goose, so you can safely dismiss his opinion. Likewise AR's total dismissal of volunteers is just plain stupid.

Now, isnt it amazing that those that do absolutely nothing for Australian chess are the first to attack volunteers.

Let me suggest to you freeloaders that the reason people volunteer their services is because they believe that they get something out of chess(it varies for different people) and that therefore because they can they decide to put something back into the chess scene. Volunteers, volunteer you morons because they want to make a contribution.

Of couse some of us could charge at our usual rate of between $75-$200/hr but neither the state associations nor the ACF could afford to pay.

Imagine for example, if the ACF was charged by the national ratings officers
for their time, services and experise and the ACF Council says, hey you guys should work out whats wrong with the ACT junior ratings. Yeah no problem we say, we will get right on it and we will charge on a time an materials basis at the bargain price of $100/hr. Of course we cannot determine at this stage how many hours it will take, but it will be at least 200.
Guess what. You would still be waiting, because the ACF would never pay that sort of money, and if they did, all you morons would be attacking them for wasting money.

Now the same is true of the time contributed by Paul B on the web page and all the other volunteers in their respective positions, from those that volunteer at their clubs to those that do so at the state and national level.
EXACTLY

samspade
25-03-2004, 09:39 AM
No, I didn't have a lover in the NSWCA when I was a councillor; I'm not gay; Bill isn't my illegitimate half-dad; I don't work for Mr. Parr; Escribano isn't my brother; and I am not chesslover.

AR
Hehe:lol: :clap: :owned:

Kerry Stead
25-03-2004, 10:03 AM
Oh you are such a gossip monger, aren't you woman? And Kerry Stead reckons I am!

But you ARE Amiel! There may be others in other states who have superior gossip-mongering qualities (not that I was implying Jenni in this), but as far as Sydney is concerned, I think you have the title of 'Biggest Gossip' all to yourself!

samspade
25-03-2004, 10:03 AM
While I think of it, I realised I have been unfair to Matthew Sweeney in a couple of ways on this BB. I have said a number of things about him that in retrospect were quite nasty and unnecessary and which I retract. The reason I'm posting this here is that it reminded me that Matthew also is a volunteer and I guess I should have had some respect for that. Volunteer or not, though, my comments were overly vitriolic and when I can locate them I'll delete them.

arosar
25-03-2004, 10:09 AM
But you ARE Amiel! There may be others in other states who have superior gossip-mongering qualities (not that I was implying Jenni in this), but as far as Sydney is concerned, I think you have the title of 'Biggest Gossip' all to yourself!

Righto Kerry, how many more Baileys is it gonna cost me for you to spill all?

AR

Kerry Stead
25-03-2004, 03:11 PM
Righto Kerry, how many more Baileys is it gonna cost me for you to spill all?

AR

You'd have to try a LOT ... I don't spill things easily!

chesslover
25-03-2004, 08:12 PM
I am so sick and tired of idiots like jason and others carrying on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on :mad: :mad:

Look at me Look at me
I am a volunteer I am a volunteer
Look how I am sufffering Look how I am suffering
I am a martyr I am a martyr
I am so high and mighty I am so high and mighty
I am so superior I am so superior

Give me a bloody break :mad: :mad:

HOW DARE you think that arosar and I do not contribute to chess. I BUY books and videos and support chess. I play and support Australian chess. I pay my entry fee and support Australian chess. I pay teh ratings fee and support Australian chess. I pay NSWCA membership and support Australian chess. I pay local club fees and support Australian chess

Volunteering is not the only way to support Australian chess. I am so sick and tired of these martyrs carrying on and on as if that is the only way to support Australian chess.

Ask for extra non-volunteer tax for playing chess or being a member or ratings. I do not care. But do not go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on as if volunteers are so superior to others :mad: :mad:

skip to my lou
25-03-2004, 08:30 PM
They ARE so superior to others. Because they do everything that you do, plus more.

Paul S
25-03-2004, 08:58 PM
HOW DARE you think that arosar and I do not contribute to chess. I BUY books and videos and support chess. I play and support Australian chess. I pay my entry fee and support Australian chess. I pay teh ratings fee and support Australian chess. I pay NSWCA membership and support Australian chess. I pay local club fees and support Australian chess.

Volunteering is not the only way to support Australian chess. I am so sick and tired of these martyrs carrying on and on as if that is the only way to support Australian chess.


Yes, I'll concede that some of what you say are fair comments. It is likely that in my zeal to try and get more people involved in chess admin (as you know, IMHO the biggest problem in chess is the lack of people doing the "chess admin work"), I may have overstepped the mark on a couple of occasions on this BB.

Despite what some people may think on this BB, I don't mind people not contributing to chess admin, and I can even accept/tolerate the occasional complaints/criticisms from these people.

What I cannot accept/tolerate is people who contribute NOTHING to chess admin but who ALSO continually whinge and criticise those who are at least having a go (these whingers also usually just sit back and expect "service to be provided to them"). This annoys me more than anything else in chess, and largely because of having to put up with this sort of behaviour from others for the last several years, in late 2003/early 2004 I almost gave up chess altogether.

I don't think that buying books and videos is "supporting chess". Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to people buying chesss books/videos and there is of course nothing wrong with this. However it is ludicrous to compare this "contribution" to chess (buying books/videos) in the same league as the admin work that people like Bill Gletsos (ACF Ratings Officer + NSWCA President + Ryde-Eastwood tournament oganiser) or Norm Greenwood (ACF and NSWCA Treasurer + North Sydney and Manly main organiser), etc etc. The way I see it, buying books/videos essentially benefits the buyer + chess retailer + author and does NOT benefit the chess community as a whole.

Sure, volunteering is not the ONLY way to support Australian Chess. However, volunteering (chess admin work) is the best and most practical way to support Australian Chess and is the most needed if chess is to ever rise out of its present status as a near irrelevance in Australia (when compared to a lot of other sports).

Bill Gletsos
25-03-2004, 11:05 PM
HOW DARE you think that arosar and I do not contribute to chess. I BUY books and videos and support chess.
I susp*** I spend considerable more than the average Joe at the local chess businesses. However I dont consider I'm contributing to Australian Chess. I'm contributing to their bottom line(profit). Dont get me wrong I dont mind this after all I am buying goods(books etc).


I play and support Australian chess. I pay my entry fee and support Australian chess. I pay teh ratings fee and support Australian chess. I pay NSWCA membership and support Australian chess. I pay local club fees and support Australian chess
Yes, very good CL, however if all the volunteers stopped volunteering then all you non volunteers would be stuffed.
Who would organise your tournaments, who would do the ratings etc.
Ah you say.
Someone will come forward and do that.
Yes, you are probably right they will.
But guess what you goose, by the very act of coming forward and doing what you and AR will not they become volunteers.

Rincewind
25-03-2004, 11:18 PM
Yes, very good CL, however if all the volunteers stopped volunteering then all you non volunteers would be stuffed.
Who would organise your tournaments, who would do the ratings etc.
Ah you say.
Someone will come forward and do that.
Yes, you are probably right they will.
But guess what you goose, by the very act of coming forward and doing what you and AR will not they become volunteers.

I'm reminded of a quote which I can't quite remember who or exactly but it goes like this.


I used to think with so many problems in the world, "why doesn't someone do something out this issue or that problem?" Until I realised, I was someone.


If someone recognises the quote and can correct it, or supply the author, I'd be appreciative.

PHAT
25-03-2004, 11:19 PM
While I think of it, I realised I have been unfair to Matthew Sweeney in a couple of ways on this BB. I have said a number of things about him that in retrospect were quite nasty and unnecessary and which I retract. The reason I'm posting this here is that it reminded me that Matthew also is a volunteer and I guess I should have had some respect for that. Volunteer or not, though, my comments were overly vitriolic and when I can locate them I'll delete them.

Ummm, I do not even recall them. Not that that means I didn't listen and take note. It is just that the BB is mostly a free-for-all and 97% of it is, well, forgetable nonsense. The other 3% are my posts.

Garvinator
25-03-2004, 11:44 PM
Ummm, I do not even recall them. Not that that means I didn't listen and take note. It is just that the BB is mostly a free-for-all and 97% of it is, well, forgetable nonsense. The other 3% are my posts.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :hand: :whistle:

PHAT
25-03-2004, 11:48 PM
I am so sick and tired of idiots like jason and others carrying on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ...



The "best post" was a a good idea that was turned into a fiasco. I stayed out of it because it was a fiasco. This "voluteer" thread is going the same way and I want to stay out of it. However, I really truly-ruly am a sick of you and others saying that voluteers here, (most of the BB inhabitants) are playing emotional blackmail. None of us are! We do it because, we want to. We feel better when we do that when we do not voluteer. I do not know why some people are like that and some are not. Nevertheless, you continue to benefit from voluteers. Personally, I wish you would leave us alone, just say nothing more. Personally I do not expect that I/we will we thanked, but when I/we are, it is "nice". However, CL, when you declair that voluteers are martyrs, I personally feel more than pieved.

Take this as a threat. One more post from you on this subject, you paracite appologist, and I will go for your throat.

Garvinator
25-03-2004, 11:58 PM
Take this as a threat. One more post from you on this subject, you paracite appologist, and I will go for your throat.
can i have odds on matt being on about 1700 posts by the end of the week :lol: we all know that threatening cl just makes him post more and more :(

eclectic
26-03-2004, 12:06 AM
can i have odds on matt being on about 1700 posts by the end of the week :lol: we all know that threatening cl just makes him post more and more :(
and to think ... if all posters here were "made to volunteer" ten dollars for every post they have made to the forthcoming olympiad appeal ...

let's leave it there :hmm:

eclectic

Alan Shore
26-03-2004, 12:35 AM
I'm reminded of a quote which I can't quite remember who or exactly but it goes like this.


I used to think with so many problems in the world, "why doesn't someone do something out this issue or that problem?" Until I realised, I was someone.


If someone recognises the quote and can correct it, or supply the author, I'd be appreciative.


Reminds me of a quote of my own:

"From now on I'm only thinking of me." Major Danby replied indulgently with a superior smile: "But Yossarian, suppose everyone felt that way." "Then," said Yossarian, "I'd be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?"

- Joseph Heller - 'Catch-22'

Bill Gletsos
26-03-2004, 12:39 AM
Ummm, I do not even recall them. Not that that means I didn't listen and take note. It is just that the BB is mostly a free-for-all and 97% of it is, well, forgetable nonsense. The other 3% are my posts.
Yes and all the other posters forget that 3%. ;)

Lucena
28-03-2004, 06:02 PM
But you ARE Amiel! There may be others in other states who have superior gossip-mongering qualities (not that I was implying Jenni in this), but as far as Sydney is concerned, I think you have the title of 'Biggest Gossip' all to yourself!

Yep. No contest. Hands down.

Garvinator
28-03-2004, 06:23 PM
Yep. No contest. Hands down.
i am from qld so i have no clue who you are gareth, can you tell me something about you :owned:

Bill Gletsos
28-03-2004, 06:27 PM
i am from qld so i have no clue who you are gareth, can you tell me something about you :owned:
Lets just say although gareth is a chess lover he is not chesslover. :owned:

Garvinator
28-03-2004, 06:35 PM
Lets just say although gareth is a chess lover he is not chesslover. :owned:
:lol: :lol: i was actually asking an innocent question on that one, but i did think about asking, are you chesslover :eek: :hand:

Lucena
28-03-2004, 11:06 PM
i am from qld so i have no clue who you are gareth, can you tell me something about you :owned:

I played in the Australian Champs in Adelaide recently that I think you were at, I am a Sydney player, Fide 2191(I think), ACF 2037(actually now 2106 due to the 70 point hike), I recently marked off Graham Richardson to vote at local government election, and I am not chesslover.

Garvinator
28-03-2004, 11:09 PM
I played in the Australian Champs in Adelaide recently that I think you were at, I was all set to go to adelaide, then on dec 26 i received some news which prevented my attendance. I am still chasing some matters regarding this.


and I am not chesslover. good to read ;) :clap: :clap:

chesslover
29-03-2004, 12:22 AM
Yep. No contest. Hands down.

Not fair gareth. Amiel is a nice decent young man who has contributed a lot for chess. If you had read this thread you will know that people can contribute to chess in many ways. I contribute by spending a lot of money at australian chess shops and by paying my NSWCA fees and tournament fees. I know Amiel and I can vouch for the fact that he spends a lot of money on chess products and that he is very interested in the australian chess scene.

Yet there are others who do not enter touranaments regularly and do not buy chess products but just volunteer. Who is the better person and contributes to Australian chess more?

I would say it would be people like me and Amiel who buy from Australian chess shops and help them survive.

Kerry Stead
29-03-2004, 03:38 AM
Not fair gareth. Amiel is a nice decent young man who has contributed a lot for chess. If you had read this thread you will know that people can contribute to chess in many ways. I contribute by spending a lot of money at australian chess shops and by paying my NSWCA fees and tournament fees. I know Amiel and I can vouch for the fact that he spends a lot of money on chess products and that he is very interested in the australian chess scene.

Yet there are others who do not enter touranaments regularly and do not buy chess products but just volunteer. Who is the better person and contributes to Australian chess more?

I would say it would be people like me and Amiel who buy from Australian chess shops and help them survive.

Just because you buy chess books does not make you someone who contributes to Australian Chess ... as you may have seen Bill post already - you are merely patronising a business. Your NSWCA membership and tournament fees are a more noticeable contribution to Australian Chess. However I don't think you can campare it to 'just' volunteering. Personally I value volunteering much higher (after all, who would be running the NSWCA that you are a member of?) ... You should also compare scales ... like if someone pays NSWCA membership & enters one tournament per year, their contribution, although appriciated, can hardly be called noteworthy. The same could be said for someone who volunteers to run a canteen (or the like) at a tournament for one day, and that is all as far as their contribution is concerned.

arosar
29-03-2004, 09:50 AM
Not fair gareth.

No need to defend me mate. Gazza's a mate of mine. We had a jolly good time in Adelaide - we actually shared a room with a coupla other top blokes (one of whom I predict to be a future recipient of the Nobel Prize for biochemistry).

And, of course, you are correct about volunteering in chess admin. It is over-rated.

AR

Rincewind
29-03-2004, 10:50 AM
we actually shared a room with a coupla other top blokes (one of whom I predict to be a future recipient of the Nobel Prize for biochemistry).

That's a big call. Considering currently there is no Nobel Prize for Biochemistry. Still they may be in the running for the Chemistry or Medicine/Physiology prizes. :D

chesslover
29-03-2004, 07:12 PM
Just because you buy chess books does not make you someone who contributes to Australian Chess ... as you may have seen Bill post already - you are merely patronising a business. Your NSWCA membership and tournament fees are a more noticeable contribution to Australian Chess. However I don't think you can campare it to 'just' volunteering. Personally I value volunteering much higher (after all, who would be running the NSWCA that you are a member of?) ... You should also compare scales ... like if someone pays NSWCA membership & enters one tournament per year, their contribution, although appriciated, can hardly be called noteworthy. The same could be said for someone who volunteers to run a canteen (or the like) at a tournament for one day, and that is all as far as their contribution is concerned.

let us agree to disagree and not argue about this

I get up and look at the mirror and feel that I have contributed to Australian chess by buying books and paying fees and playing in tournaments.

I am sure Amiel feels that he has been a great contributer to Australian chess and I can vouch personally that he cares a great deal about australian chess and is very passionate about that.

You contribute to australian chess, Bill contrinutes, PaulS contributes, kevin contributes, Barry contributes, ggray contributes. Amiel contributes and I do. We just contribute in a different way

Garvinator
29-03-2004, 07:23 PM
i thought i covered this topic with paul s by saying that to have a better argument, the pro volunteering crowd should use, volunteering in chess administration, not volunteering in australian chess :hmm:

I do have a question though, how is paying entry fees for a chess tournament have anything to do with volunteering? I thought volunteering was giving your time for free or small recompense to help an organisation or community sector :hmm:

chesslover
29-03-2004, 07:34 PM
I do have a question though, how is paying entry fees for a chess tournament have anything to do with volunteering? I thought volunteering was giving your time for free or small recompense to help an organisation or community sector :hmm:

we are talking about the value to australian chess

paying money for tournaments is the same value as volunteering to help in the same tournament

Garvinator
29-03-2004, 07:39 PM
we are talking about the value to australian chess

paying money for tournaments is the same value as volunteering to help in the same tournament
here is an idea then cl, if paying money for tournaments is the same value, why dont tournament volunteers get free entry then? :doh: :clap:

peanbrain
29-03-2004, 07:40 PM
I get up and look at the mirror and feel that I have contributed to Australian chess by buying books and paying fees and playing in tournaments.


CL - I like to know who you see when you look yourself in the mirror! :uhoh:

Also I think your contribution to chess is more than buying books etc. The fact you stirred such a discussion on your possible identity is quite an achievement in itself. :lol:

chesslover
29-03-2004, 08:15 PM
here is an idea then cl, if paying money for tournaments is the same value, why dont tournament volunteers get free entry then? :doh: :clap:

I dont have any problems wirh discounted entry for volunteers

try is and see. say it is $for all players and ($ - 50%) for those players who volunteer to help out in the tournament

PHAT
29-03-2004, 08:19 PM
we are talking about the value to australian chess

paying money for tournaments is the same value as volunteering to help in the same tournament

This is absolutely false.

If you want to play tournament chess you have to pay the entry fee.
Therefore, the entry fee is compulsory.
If paying an entry fee was volutary, few, if any, would pay it.
Thus, entry fees are a "tax".

There is NOTHING voluntary about your style of "contribution".

Now, FO.

chesslover
29-03-2004, 08:19 PM
CL - I like to know who you see when you look yourself in the mirror! :uhoh:

Also I think your contribution to chess is more than buying books etc. The fact you stirred such a discussion on your possible identity is quite an achievement in itself. :lol:

I am the annonymous person who has posted the most and becuase of my anti elite and anti ACF stance they are trying to out me and destroy my chess career.

But then once they finish exposing me they will come ater you and all other annonymous people in this BB

mark my words mark my words and heed them

All annonymous people should stick together otherwise they will expose us one by one by one

chesslover
29-03-2004, 08:25 PM
This is absolutely false.

If you want to play tournament chess you have to pay the entry fee.
Therefore, the entry fee is compulsory.
If paying an entry fee was volutary, few, if any, would pay it.
Thus, entry fees are a "tax".

There is NOTHING voluntary about your style of "contribution".

Now, FO.

FO yourselfand wash your hands :mad:

I am saying that there are different ways to contribute to chess. Volunteering is one way and buying books is another and paying fees is another and so is paying tournament fees.

There are different ways to contribute

Whhen you organise a tournament you contribute
when you help out by setting pieces and packing up you contribute
when you staff a canteen you contribute
when you pay the NSWCA fees you contribute
when you pay teh tournament fees you contrinute
when you give a team mate a lift you contribute
when you buy books or videos you contribute

so stop being a martyr and thinking that volunteering si the only way you can contribute

FO now and wash your hands :mad:

Bill Gletsos
29-03-2004, 08:47 PM
This is absolutely false.

If you want to play tournament chess you have to pay the entry fee.
Therefore, the entry fee is compulsory.
If paying an entry fee was volutary, few, if any, would pay it.
Thus, entry fees are a "tax".

There is NOTHING voluntary about your style of "contribution".

Now, FO.
Ah the true Matt shines thru.
Welcome back. ;)

Garvinator
29-03-2004, 08:49 PM
Ah the true Matt shines thru.
Welcome back. ;)
yes i had wondered where the real matt had been, i thought he might have been nobbled by the nswca council so all we got was an inferior version. :p :whistle:

Bill Gletsos
29-03-2004, 08:53 PM
There are different ways to contribute

Whhen you organise a tournament you contribute
I'll agree with this. What tournaments have you organised.

when you help out by setting pieces and packing up you contribute
This makes you a volunteer but a very minor one. It no way comapres to the likes of NSWCA Council members or chess club officials.

when you staff a canteen you contribute
Again your a volunteer. And again its a minor contribution.

when you pay the NSWCA fees you contribute
This does contribute, but then again its also like a tax. If it was optional few would pay it.

when you pay teh tournament fees you contrinute
This doesnt. It goes towards the expenses of running the tournament along with thje prize money. As Matt said if entry fees were voluntary very few would pay them(make that virtually no one).

when you give a team mate a lift you contribute
No that helps your mate.

when you buy books or videos you contribute
No you dont. Your supporting a chess business. Nothing more nothing less.

ursogr8
29-03-2004, 10:41 PM
I am the annonymous person who has posted the most and becuase of my anti elite and anti ACF stance they are trying to out me and destroy my chess career.


All anonymous people should stick together otherwise they will expose us one by one by one

hi CL

What do we actually do when we stick together ?

Is it some sort of voting cartel? At the next best post contest?

Do we protest vehmently to those who control things; PaulB, Jeo, Gandalf, Kevin, Bill, Barry?

Do we buy the same books?

Do we lay clues in the contrary direction?

Just what sort of ALLIANCE would I be getting into? Is fg7 welcome? And jammo too?


starter

Garvinator
29-03-2004, 10:45 PM
hi CL

What do we actually do when we stick together ?

Is it some sort of voting cartel? At the next best post contest?

Do we protest vehmently to those who control things; PaulB, Jeo, Gandalf, Kevin, Bill, Barry?

Do we buy the same books?

Do we lay clues in the contrary direction?

Just what sort of ALLIANCE would I be getting into? Is fg7 welcome? And jammo too?


starter

starter, i dont think there really could be any alliance with the people you have mentioned. fg7, jammo, you and I have all been outed ;)

Bill Gletsos
29-03-2004, 11:01 PM
starter, i dont think there really could be any alliance with the people you have mentioned. fg7, jammo, you and I have all been outed ;)
Yes well you and jammo didnt really try to hide it.

Garvinator
29-03-2004, 11:03 PM
Yes well you and jammo didnt really try to hide it.
i dont think starter did either with his constant references to box hill chess club and saying that he is auditor of cv books.

Rincewind
30-03-2004, 12:41 AM
Yes well you and jammo didnt really try to hide it.

That's right :D

It would be the equivalent of Chesslover adopting the username of Fritz. ;)

chesslover
30-03-2004, 12:56 AM
That's right :D

It would be the equivalent of Chesslover adopting the username of Fritz. ;)
very witty buddy

what made it even more witty was your use of context in making the joke. I had a lot of merry laughs at this post of yours

Do you have any other oneline jokes or has this exhausted your armoury??

Rincewind
30-03-2004, 01:00 AM
Do you have any other oneline jokes or has this exhausted your armoury??

Have you read the one about the budgie yet?

chesslover
30-03-2004, 01:10 AM
Have you read the one about the budgie yet?

Yup. Budgie is dead now

I am blaming the cat

Rincewind
30-03-2004, 01:15 AM
Yup. Budgie is dead now

I am blaming the cat

A little bird told me rumours of its demise had been greatly exaggerated.

ursogr8
30-03-2004, 07:49 AM
i dont think starter did either with his constant references to box hill chess club and saying that he is auditor of cv books.
r'a'g'y

Don't tell me you have been putting 2 and 2 together, laboriously? :eek:
You only needed to PM and ask. :p

starter

Garvinator
30-03-2004, 09:49 AM
r'a'g'y

Don't tell me you have been putting 2 and 2 together, laboriously? :eek:
You only needed to PM and ask. :p

starter
considering our discussions during the petra stuff last year, i still have your mobile number ;)

jenni
28-04-2004, 09:31 PM
this thread has gone very dead!

I thought it might be nice to use it to thank a volunteer who does something special.

I would like to kick it off by thanking Jennie Johnson, who has just sewn 70 cloth chess bags. 40 are going to Belconnen Chess club, whose chess sets are currently kept in a collection of very broken plastic boxes and plastic bags. The rest will be topping up the ACTJCL's supply.

arosar
30-04-2004, 09:57 AM
Ba.stards!

"Volunteering to be a Better Manager"

http://www.strategy-business.com/enewsarticle/enews042904

AR

ursogr8
30-04-2004, 10:11 AM
Ba.stards!

"Volunteering to be a Better Manager"

http://www.strategy-business.com/enewsarticle/enews042904

AR

hi AR


Nice article AR.
You want to know how I would use my 1% allocation?
I would look around for a BB that I could join and set myself the task of starting a few topics that turned a few recalcitrant non-volunteers into active contributors. :uhoh: ;)

starter

ps Remind me again, who did you vote for in best-post-2003? That is not incest is it? :hmm: