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PHAT
28-02-2004, 11:06 AM
This is a fab piece of social observation by Tom Lehrer - "National Brotherhood Week." - Before you have an laugh, I want to ask a question. Are "The Christians" the only group who care that "The Jews" maybe killed Jesus?


Oh the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks,
To hate all but the right folks,
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National
Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clark are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your schools.


Oh, the rich folks hate the poor folks,
And the poor folks hate the rich folks,
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National
Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and take the hand,
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate them if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everyone hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National
Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone Smile at One-Anotherhood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear,
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year.

Cat
28-02-2004, 11:18 AM
Are "The Christians" the only group who care that "The Jews" maybe killed Jesus?


I guess the Jews may have some opinion on it. Only in America, eh?

Rincewind
28-02-2004, 11:42 AM
I'm not sure of the point of the original question. As Christians are those who believe in the divinity of Jesus then they are the main ones interested in the Jews as being responsible for his death. Although I would imagine most Christians today aren't prejudiced against Jews (at least not for this reason, although this might be used as a pretext).

However, there are many reasons why one group might hate another. For example, the Palastinians have a general animosity against the Jews as a direct result of the post-WWII Zionist moverment and establishment of the state of Israel. Many Muslims feel empathy towards the Palastinians on religious grounds and so the animosity spreads.

PHAT
28-02-2004, 12:51 PM
I'm not sure of the point of the original question. As Christians are those who believe in the divinity of Jesus then they are the main ones interested in the Jews as being responsible for his death.


The which particular group(s) are Jews worried about being whipped into a frenzy over the (apparent) portral in "The Passion of Christ" of some Jews doing historical nasty to Jesus Christ? Surely Jews are not suggesting that the Christians are about to arc up. If they are suggesting this, then they are actually calling into question the ability of Christians to behave themselves.

Rincewind
28-02-2004, 02:04 PM
The which particular group(s) are Jews worried about being whipped into a frenzy over the (apparent) portral in "The Passion of Christ" of some Jews doing historical nasty to Jesus Christ? Surely Jews are not suggesting that the Christians are about to arc up. If they are suggesting this, then they are actually calling into question the ability of Christians to behave themselves.

Maybe not all Christians just the neo-nazi Christians and others with an axe to grind.

Kevin Bonham
28-02-2004, 02:54 PM
Tom Lehrer is a legend, it's a shame he recorded so little because so much of what he recorded remains so relevant more than 40 years later. :(

Just reading the lyrics of "National Brotherhood Week" is not enough, you have to actually hear it to hear that snooty sneer he puts into the "National Everyone Smile at One-Anotherhood Week" line.

I don't have much to say about the question Matthew asks except, by way of trolling, that I do not quite understand why the death of Jesus is such a big deal (except in as much as anyone's death is a big deal). Either the guy didn't really die anyway, or else the guy was wrong. Christianity seems to want to have it both ways - both that he died horribly and that this was the greatest travesty imaginable, but also that he didn't die at all. Seems a bit incoherent to me.

PHAT
28-02-2004, 05:42 PM
Either the guy didn't really die anyway, or else the guy was wrong. Christianity seems to want to have it both ways - both that he died horribly and that this was the greatest travesty imaginable, but also that he didn't die at all. Seems a bit incoherent to me.


Well, I want to know, if had not been crucified, and died that way, would he have had to off himself in terrible pain and suffering to make the "dieing for our sins" work as a concept?

Cat
28-02-2004, 07:09 PM
The problem is that the film is probably going to create a new kind of populist orthodoxy that we're all going to have to live with. Look at Charlton Heston in 'The Ten Commandments', most Americans still think he's Moses! Millions of people will see the film with it's apparent graphic realism, and a singular image will be indelibly craved on the collective psyche of a generation. There will be no turning back, 'The Passion' will become 'The new Gospel according to St Mel'.

I wonder whether the anti-semitism is based on ignorance or design? He would doubtless have had numerous historical and religious advisors. Maybe I'm being a little paranoid, but it almost seems that 'Arianism' is beginning to re-emerge across the Atlantic.

Arian was a first century gnostic bishop that espoused the belief that the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans was confirmation the Jews were no longer God's choosen people and that mantle then belonged to Christians living within the Roman Empire. This thread has lived through European Christianity for centuries, but of course become popular with Nazi Germany, who justified the anti-semitism by calling on evolutionary theory to support their Arian beliefs. Military and political domination was considered proof that God was looking favourably on his new choosen people.

Rincewind
29-02-2004, 10:08 AM
Is KB's post serious? ("trolling" appears to indicate otherwise.) I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but the version of Xianity portayed here by KB seems to be a bit extreme. Since he is meant to be one of the more intelligent posters here, I can only imagine what he is doing is trying to provoke some sort of debate yet again with our resident fundies Goughfather and Chesslover by deliberately appearing to be ignorant. I mean what's the go Kevin? Can't you just say straight out what you mean? Am I being too harsh?:rolleyes:

I think KB asks a valid question of the Xian philosophy. It's not a point that I necessarily take them to task on, but it is worth debating nevertheless.

Either Jesus was divine or not. If he was devine it raises questions about a host of traditions: the temptation in the desert; the passion, etc.

The whole "god loved mankind so much he gave up his only son" position is decidedly fishy.

Cat
29-02-2004, 12:39 PM
I think KB asks a valid question of the Xian philosophy. It's not a point that I necessarily take them to task on, but it is worth debating nevertheless.

Either Jesus was divine or not. If he was devine it raises questions about a host of traditions: the temptation in the desert; the passion, etc.

The whole "god loved mankind so much he gave up his only son" position is decidedly fishy.

Its wonderful symbolic mythology, one of the best tales ever told. It is not reconcilable with historic fact, it's symbolic.

paulb
29-02-2004, 03:48 PM
Haven't seen the film though interested.
Can anyone tell me, re anti-semitism:
a) Is the claim that the film is unfaithful to the New Testament?
a1) If so, unfaithful in what sense?
b) If not, are not objections to the film reducible to objections to the New testament itself?
c) regarding violence, again, is the claim that it is "more violent" than the New Testament version?
c1) If not, isn't the objection reducible to the claim that the New Testament is too violent, and should be censored?
d) One for the theologians: As for the ludicrous obsession with "who killed Christ", isn't it the case that if "the Jews" or "the Romans" hadn't done it, then Christ wouldn't have died for our sins (presumably expiring from old age wouldn't count) and so we'd still be stuffed? Tough work, but someone had to do it?

Kevin Bonham
01-03-2004, 01:38 AM
Is KB's post serious? ("trolling" appears to indicate otherwise.) I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but the version of Xianity portayed here by KB seems to be a bit extreme.

Which bit seems extreme - the bit about Christians viewing the crucifiction as the greatest tragedy imaginable or the bit about Christians thinking Jesus is still "alive"?


Since he is meant to be one of the more intelligent posters here, I can only imagine what he is doing is trying to provoke some sort of debate yet again with our resident fundies Goughfather and Chesslover by deliberately appearing to be ignorant.

Neither of these gentlemen are fundies. Actually in this case, while I don't rule out an intelligent Christian having a defence against the point in question, I don't actually know what that defence would be, unless it came from a very non-mainstream tradition. I'm actually curious about this one.

And yes, the mis-spelling was intentional.

antichrist
10-07-2011, 09:30 PM
In this post many famous people including important Jews proclaim how injust is Israel's existence and policies.

Of course we dont hate the Jews but gotta put somewhere
..........................................

Selected Quotes - Israel/Palestine
“The reason that Israel has been able to appropriate Palestine unto itself with American aid and support is that Israel controls the explanation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. At least 90% of Americans, if they know anything at all of the issue, know only the Israeli propaganda line. Israel has been able to control the explanation, because the powerful Israel Lobby brands every critic of Israeli policy as an anti-semite who favors a second holocaust of the Jews.”
- Paul Craig Roberts, 2007
(See: Carter's Inconvenient Truths)


The world sees a great and ongoing injustice. They want a just Israel. They see an Israel that occupies and is clearly unjust, and they believe they should do something. We should thank them for this from the bottom of our hearts.
- Gideon Levy, 2006
(See: With a Little Help from Outside)





"The public almost automatically associates Jews and Israel. The press continues to refer to "the Jewish State." Israeli politicians often speak "in the name of the Jewish people." Yet the Zionist movement and the creation of the State of Israel have caused one of the greatest schisms in Jewish history.
- Yakov M. Rabkin, 2006
(See: A threat from within: New book describes a century of Jewish opposition to Zionism)



"It is not only the political unacceptability of Israel's Occupation which makes the call for sanction urgent and obligatory, it is the massive violations of Palestinian human rights, of international law and of numerous UN resolutions that the Occupation entails. If Israel as the Occupying Power is not held accountable for the intolerable situation within its ability, indeed, within its responsibility to end, the entire international system of justice is rendered meaningless and empty. And that is what makes the Occupation an international issue. If Israel succeeds in defying the Fourth Geneva Convention and making its Occupation permanent, if an entire population is literally locked behind walls and its right of self-determination trampled, then the ability of human rights to win out over an international order founded on power politics and militarism is jeopardized. We all have a stake in ending the Occupation"
- Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, 2005
(See: Sanctions Against the Israeli Occupation: It's Time)


“Yesterday’s South African township dwellers can tell you about today’s life in the Occupied Territories... More than an emergency is needed to get to a hospital; less than a crime earns a trip to jail... If apartheid ended, so can the occupation. But the moral force and international pressure will have to be just as determined. The current divestment effort is the first, though certainly not the only, necessary move in that direction.”
- Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Prize laureate for his work against apartheid in South Africa


“The so-called ‘Palestinian autonomous areas’ are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.”
- Nelson Mandela



"I have tried to impress on the PLO leadership, and every Palestinian or Arab I have met, that the quest for a protector in the White House is a complete chimera, since all recent presidents have been devoted to Zionist aims, and that the only way to change US policy is through a mass campaign on behalf of Palestinian human rights, out-flanking the Zionist establishment and going straight to the American people. Uninformed and yet open to appeals for justice as they are, Americans are capable of reacting as they did to the ANC campaign against apartheid, which finally changed the balance of forces inside South Africa."
- Edward Said, 2002
(See: America's Last Taboo)



“I imagine that if I were a Palestinian of the right age, I would, at some stage, have joined one of the terror organizations.”
- Ehud Barak, Israeli general, and Prime Minister 1999 - 2001



"If Jews in France were required to carry identification cards designating them Jews (even though French citizens), could not acquire land or buy or rent homes in most of the country, were not eligible for service in the armed forces, and French law banned any political party or legislation calling for equal rights for Jews, would France be widely praised in the United States as a "symbol of human decency" (New York Times) and paragon of democracy? Would there be a huge protest if France, in consequence of such laws and practices, was declared by a UN majority to be a racist state?"
- Edward S. Herman, 1994



“What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.”
- Moshe Dayan, Israeli general, 1956
(See: Israeli Apartheid and Terrorism)




“For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”. This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression. The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annexe foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.”
- Bertrand Russell, 1970
(See: Bertrand Russell's Last Message)


“No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate?”
- Bertrand Russell, 1970
(See: Bertrand Russell's Last Message)


Further reading:

The Middle East Conflict - A selection of resources for those looking for a solution to the Middle East crisis based on peace, justice, and human rights.

antichrist
15-07-2011, 02:16 AM
Kb from flamewar with FG thread

I think one difference is that in the I/P case a two-state solution might work someday

AC
under the present power of Israel the Palestinian state will be like Swiss cheese with all those holes in it, which really speaking is completely unjust and may be illegal - just as some of those separation walls were declared such even in Israel recently, which copied the international law decision of several years ago.

And that Silvio Hale who was recently arrested there only 2 days ago I gave a generous dono for that trip 6 months ago - good value. And her accomplice was a Jew by the way who could no longer tolerate that her people were doing against the Palestinians.

Capablanca-Fan
19-07-2011, 01:36 PM
How to boycott Israel properly

Arab and leftard radicals are again talking Israel boycott. To assist them here is a partial list of all the products they should immediately stop using.

A. COMPUTERS

1. Do not buy a computer with an Intel chip, by far the most common one.
2. Do not buy a laptop developed in the 20th century because their chips were all invented in Israel.
3. Do not buy any computer with a Windows NP, XP or Vista, as they were developed by Microsoft's Israel division.
4. Do not use the latest version of Microsoft Office.
5. Do not use a computer fire wall or virus protection software, which were invented by the Israel Defense Forces.
6. Stop using Instant Messengers.
7. And USB flash drives too.
8. Do not use search engines, as the most popular algorithm was developed in Israel.
9. Since Israel is first per capita and second in overall numbers in high tech inventions, just avoid using any computer-related products to make sure that the evil Zionists don't profit.


B. MODERN TECHNOLOGY

1. Do not use the camera function on your cell phone.
2. And don't use the voicemail feature either.
3. Do not use the virtual keyboard, such as those on iPhones.
4. Forget that. Cell phones were invented in Israel so stop using them altogether.
5. Similarly stay away from Amazon Kindle.
6. Also make sure to avoid earthquake detectors and tsunami detectors. When covered by a pile of rubble or water, remember, you are making the world safe from Israel.


C. MEDICINE

1. Avoid money-saving generic drugs, as the biggest such pharmaceutical company is Teva of Israel.
2. Make sure your pharmacist does not use Zionist software to properly administer drugs.
3. Do not install baby monitors that prevent the Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
4. Women must insist on the use of methods that require radiation in diagnosing breast cancer because radiation-free technology is a Zionist conspiracy.
5. Avoid camera-pills used to diagnose patients.
6. When getting cancer treatment, make sure your radiation kills both cancerous and healthy cells because cancer-targeted treatment is a Zionist plot. Also avoid Medis El Cell Scan diagnoses and detects early stages of cancer.
7. Stay away from treatments for acne, gum disease and fungus.
8. Israel has the highest number of biotech companies per capita and almost 40% of all Nobel Prizes in Medicine were awarded to the (Israeli and non-Israeli) Jews, so just avoid all medicine to be on the safe side.


D. FASHION

1. Do not buy seamless clothing as this is an Israeli patent.
2. DKNY, Ralph Lauren, Michael Kors, Calvin Klein, Joseph Abboude, Kenneth Cole, Isaac Mizrahi, Marc Jacobs, Anne Klein - all Jews. Stick to wearing the latest in anti-Zionist fashion: the burqa.

george
19-07-2011, 03:48 PM
Hi Jono,

Sometimes i find your posts interesting but the last one was a bit silly - i realise that some of the peoples of israel are clever and creative the same as some aussies. To therefore say that to boycott goods from israel one should stop using the results of their intellectual development doesnt make sense to me as it will not hurt the state of Israel financially.

What would hurt the state of Israel financially is if the US withrew its massive aid and brought it back to the level of support given to poor african countries - that is treat countries in need on a humanitarian basis rather than a political one - or at least make a reasonable attempt at redressing some sort of balanced support. In my ignorance I dont know how much support from US is from government and how much from private sources - Jono perhaps you could enlighten me say in round figures per head of population.

I would have been very keen to see any reasoned reply you could make or reasoned comment on the quotes of emminent persons in Antichrists post.

Garrett
19-07-2011, 04:11 PM
I think it was a joke George.

WhiteElephant
19-07-2011, 05:14 PM
Jono, that's brilliant. Love it!

george
21-07-2011, 07:38 PM
Hi All,

I realise Jono's missive was put in a humourous way - many of the most pointed political statements have been made in the guise of humour.

Jono was making a point - if others cant see this that is their problem.

As many here are sick of lefties Re : Captain Underpants etc I am sick of Israel apologists. One of my grandfathers was jewish but I still think I have the right to heavily disagree with the way in which the state of Israel is : not compensating the palestinians for loss of land and not allowing without predjudice the flourishing of other religions in Israel.

Unless I am mistaken both of these were conditions of israel entering the United Nations - am i correct that Israel is the only country in the United Nations which because it has not met its conditional entry obligations is on shaky ground legally speaking (not politically).

antichrist
22-07-2011, 12:13 AM
http://www.usislam.org/politics/unresolutions.htm

this list covers to about `1995, it is impossible to have a proper understanding of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict without taking into account the enormous amount of resolutions against Israeli actions. Other sites cover up to 2010.

Does any other country other than Israel enjoy such undeserved favouritism to the detriment of foreign people under her control? If any other country had just a small fraction of these non-compliances they would be invaded by a UN or Western co-alition to pull it into line.

So for over 60 years Palestinians have suffered accordingly and still have more land stolen from them.

And Australia grossly supports Israel and the US against sanctions against Israel.

Australia is part of the problem.

http://australiansforpalestine.com/48761
this is an Australian site that supports the Palestinian people, many fair-minded Jewish people belong to this organisation.

antichrist
30-07-2011, 01:45 AM
Bobby Fischer
Anti-American and anti-Israel statements
A little after Midnight on September 12, Philippines local time (four hours after the September 11, 2001 attacks in the U.S.), Fischer was interviewed live by Pablo Mercado on the Baguio City station of the Bombo Radyo network. Fischer commented on U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, saying "I applaud the act. Look nobody gets ... no one ... that the U.S. and Israel have been slaughtering the Palestinians for years." He also said "All the crimes the U.S. is committing all over the world ... This just shows, what goes around, that comes around even to the United States."

http://reference.findtarget.com/search/Bobby%20Fischer/

Kevin Bonham
30-07-2011, 10:49 AM
Quoting the ranting of someone who was clearly mentally ill at the time of the statements does absolutely nothing to strengthen your cause.

Seems to me that AC's primary purpose in bumping this thread is to use it as a repository for more of his ranting about Israel so ...

thread locked