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MichaelBaron
17-05-2006, 05:51 PM
I found the following job advertised at the www.seek.com.au website today:

Chess Teacher

Teacher
Primary school
Sessional

Chess Ideas is an organisation devoted to development and fostering chess at the highest level. Our company was established 15 years ago by (IM) Michael Gluzman & Ross Thomas, who are extremely passionate about Chess and imparting knowledge and love for the game on to children.

Chess improves children's mental prowess, concentration, memory and analytical skills. Several research studies have shown that chess can improve student's academic results.

You know how to teach, we will train you in ‘chess’. Good sessional rates.
Please contact Zeev:

95328370 or 0403225788 or email your CV to admin@chessideas.com.au
Training and equipment are provided.




Zeev Zafrin
Genaral Manager
p: 95328370
f: 95328360
mobile: 0403225788
email: admin@chessideas.com.au
Email: Please click the 'Apply Now' button below.

WhiteElephant
17-05-2006, 07:02 PM
'We will teach you chess'.

Are there no decent chess teachers looking for work from among the chess community?

This ad is right out of the David Cordover school of staff recruitment. No chess knowledge required. It reminds me of one time when I was working at Chess Kids, I heard one new chess teacher, after having just taught his first class, asking the head coach: Um...excuse me...can you tell me how the king moves again.'

Desmond
17-05-2006, 08:42 PM
Chess Ideas is an organisation devoted to development and fostering chess at the highest level.

I guess teaching its coaches how to push the wood is an important step then. :lol:

Rincewind
17-05-2006, 09:26 PM
I think it really depends on the level at which the teaching is pitched. By way of analogy consider the mathematical abiity of teachers of mathematics at primary, secondary and tertiary levels.

At primary the emphasis is on the teaching. The mathematics is of a more fundamental level and a high level of technical knowledge is not required by the teacher. In general the teachers have education qualifications but not mathematics degrees.

At secondary level the teaching is still a big component but the level of technical knowledge is a step up. Ideallythe teachers should (I believe) have mathematics and education qualifications.

At the tertiary level the specialist knowledge is another step up. The teachers would ideally have post-graduate maths qualification (probably PhD) and some education training or qualification. But the balance is completely the opposite of what is required for the primary level.

So if Chess Ideas are recruiting teachers of primary chess fundamentals I think the emphasis is on getting good teachers who can be chessed up rather than the other way around. This seems to be the thrust of their advertisment.

MichaelBaron
17-05-2006, 09:42 PM
I.
.

So if Chess Kids are recruiting teachers of primary chess fundamentals I think the emphasis is on getting good teachers who can be chessed up rather than the other way around. This seems to be the thrust of their advertisment.


The emphasis is on getting entertainers to go around the schools and entertain the kids:hand: .

Steve K
17-05-2006, 10:13 PM
I wonder if the 'train the trainer' sessions are free or whether the applicant is expected to pay. Now there's a chance for 'double dipping'.

Basil
17-05-2006, 10:26 PM
I wonder if the 'train the trainer' sessions are free or whether the applicant is expected to pay. Now there's a chance for 'double dipping'.
I'd be certain that the training is for free. Its what employers do.

Rincewind
17-05-2006, 10:29 PM
The emphasis is on getting entertainers to go around the schools and entertain the kids:hand: .

What is the justification for that statement? The ad clearly targets those with education qualification/experience.

MichaelBaron
17-05-2006, 11:21 PM
What is the justification for that statement? The ad clearly targets those with education qualification/experience.


Just some conversations I have had with Chess Kids/Chess Ideas coaches:whistle:

Axiom
17-05-2006, 11:35 PM
chess IS entertainment............. educational benefits arise by adhering to this axiom. :)

Rincewind
17-05-2006, 11:40 PM
Just some conversations I have had with Chess Kids/Chess Ideas coaches:whistle:

OK Well that is a whole other kettle of herring.

Note I meant Chess Ideas in the last para of my previous post, not Chess Kids. I'll correct.

MichaelBaron
18-05-2006, 10:02 AM
OK Well that is a whole other kettle of herring.

Note I meant Chess Ideas in the last para of my previous post, not Chess Kids. I'll correct.


Is there that much of a difference between Chess Kids and Chess Ideas?

The business owners are different but the business proposition is very much the same - entertaining school kids ;)

Rincewind
18-05-2006, 10:11 AM
Is there that much of a difference between Chess Kids and Chess Ideas?

The business owners are different but the business proposition is very much the same - entertaining school kids ;)

No the whole other kettle of herring was in reference to your opinion being formed from discussions with coaches, not based on the the advertisement alone.

My point was just that the focus on teaching rather than chess ability could be valid in some contexts.

MichaelBaron
18-05-2006, 10:18 AM
My point was just that the focus on teaching rather than chess ability could be valid in some contexts.


Ok, that I strongly agree with! But what are these contexts?

Chess at schools can be introduced with 3 basic purposes (may be there are more but these are the 3 i can think of from the top of my head).

1) to entertain the kids (probably most suitable for the Australian market)
2) to improve logical thinking and analitical skills
3) to raise some some strong chess players

Rincewind
18-05-2006, 11:51 AM
Ok, that I strongly agree with! But what are these contexts?

Chess at schools can be introduced with 3 basic purposes (may be there are more but these are the 3 i can think of from the top of my head).

1) to entertain the kids (probably most suitable for the Australian market)
2) to improve logical thinking and analitical skills
3) to raise some some strong chess players

Now you are talking about motivation and I was only considering the outcome itself. If you have some young children who are completely new to the game you need a competent teacher first and chess mastery second. So in the context of that level of chess teaching I think the focus on teaching is appropriate.

From a complete business model point of view, if your purpose is to develop stong chess players, it is important to be able to provide services with a greater level of technical chess knowledge. This is all down the track, if and when the individual student requires it.

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 11:58 AM
I think that one thing a 'chessed up' primary school teacher cannot do that a chessplayer can, is convey their enthusiasm and passion for the game.. A chessplayer will have stories of exciting tournament victories, narrow losses, and practical advice gained from their own play which cannot be learned from a quick course in chess teaching.

Having said that, I have seen a couple of excellent chess teachers at early primary levels who started teaching with little knowledge of chess and developed their chess skills over several years. It does take a fair bit of voluntary self study on the part of the teacher and it is rare, but possible.

On the subject of entertaining kids, that is certainly a big part of being a good chess teacher at low skill levels. Children often find it difficult to concentrate in class, especially on a game as complex as chess. One of the skills a chess teacher needs is to make the subject matter interesting, rather than show endless GM games to grade 1s and 2s like some teachers I know :)

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 11:59 AM
Is there that much of a difference between Chess Kids and Chess Ideas?

Yes!

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 12:00 PM
I'd be certain that the training is for free. Its what employers do.

Ha you'd be surprised. Imagine charging for a chess teaching course then not guaranteeing a job afterwards. But I'll say no more.

Desmond
18-05-2006, 12:12 PM
Ha you'd be surprised. Imagine charging for a chess teaching course then not guaranteeing a job afterwards. But I'll say no more.

Coming up on Today Tonight ...

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 12:18 PM
Coming up on Today Tonight ...

Chess coaching company directors caught in secret sex tape!

Basil
18-05-2006, 12:56 PM
Ha you'd be surprised. Imagine charging for a chess teaching course then not guaranteeing a job afterwards. But I'll say no more.
Indeed. But that person would not be an employer. That person would be a criminal.

I wonder if there would be a politicalleaning correlations between employers and criminals - perhaps we would find they would vote different ways? :)

Oh don't bite - get over it, you lot :) :)

Garvinator
18-05-2006, 02:16 PM
I see this thread being yanked very soon.

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 02:19 PM
I see this thread being yanked very soon.

Why?

Do you have a view on whether ordinary teachers can be trained to be good coaches?

jenni
18-05-2006, 02:36 PM
Why?

Do you have a view on whether ordinary teachers can be trained to be good coaches?
It happened in Canberra - Geoff Butler put together a package to basically train teachers as chess instructors and allow them to give lessons following his lesson plan. Not sure how successful it was, but I know a number of schools did buy it.

Certainly teachers seem to do good work in Canberra in getting their classes enthused and started in chess. Proper chess coaches can then expand on that. What you need for the grass root level is very different to what you need to turn someone into a competent player.

I phoned one of my pet principals yesterday, as I wanted to make sure she had an early opportunity to make use of my soon to arrive IM. She has a teacher who is teaching chess in the school and she was raving about how he enthuses the kids (apparently they parade around being kings and queens and singing). He does teach them actual chess as well, at a basic level. She also plans to create an extension group, using Andras once he arrives, as she recognises the difference between the two.

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 02:59 PM
Hi Jenni,


It happened in Canberra - Geoff Butler put together a package to basically train teachers as chess instructors and allow them to give lessons following his lesson plan. Not sure how successful it was, but I know a number of schools did buy it.

Is this the same as Geoff's Chess in Schools Program with 3 parts? I am familiar with that and it is a great product.


Certainly teachers seem to do good work in Canberra in getting their classes enthused and started in chess. Proper chess coaches can then expand on that. What you need for the grass root level is very different to what you need to turn someone into a competent player.

I phoned one of my pet principals yesterday, as I wanted to make sure she had an early opportunity to make use of my soon to arrive IM. She has a teacher who is teaching chess in the school and she was raving about how he enthuses the kids (apparently they parade around being kings and queens and singing). He does teach them actual chess as well, at a basic level. She also plans to create an extension group, using Andras once he arrives, as she recognises the difference between the two.

That's great when it works. I have seen it work in schools where a teacher who has a passion for chess (nothing to do with chess coaching companies) starts a chess club and develops his or her own chess skills in order to teach it to the children. This is often the best kind of chess teaching because the teacher is always available at the school and the primary motivation is love of chess rather than financial.

I am still yet to be convinced about advertising for someone with no chess skills at all because it will probably just attract out of work teachers who need cash, and not necessarily have any interest in chess. I'd rather advertise for actual chessplayers, say, through chess clubs and only go to seek.com as an absolutely last resort.

I do like the idea of having 2 (or more) groups within the one school, a generalist chess teacher to get the kids enthused and a more intensive workshop for those who want to take it further.

jenni
18-05-2006, 04:26 PM
Hi Jenni,



Is this the same as Geoff's Chess in Schools Program with 3 parts? I am familiar with that and it is a great product.


yes that is the one - he had teacher input into it and of course he had many years experience coaching at schools, so it should have been a good product.



I am still yet to be convinced about advertising for someone with no chess skills at all because it will probably just attract out of work teachers who need cash, and not necessarily have any interest in chess. I'd rather advertise for actual chessplayers, say, through chess clubs and only go to seek.com as an absolutely last resort.


Good point - although over the years I have seen chess players dragooned into coaching at schools, purely for the money, and with very little interest or liking of young children it can be disasterous.

I think you need a combination of the two - interest in chess AND rapport with children and then you have an ideal schools chess coach.



I do like the idea of having 2 (or more) groups within the one school, a generalist chess teacher to get the kids enthused and a more intensive workshop for those who want to take it further.

It is my preferred model - grass roots development, extension program and then migrate kids from that to playing JCL junior clubs and weekend stuff (and then of course to adult clubs :) )

Oepty
18-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Surely there must be some chess playing teachers in Victoria. I know of 4 here in SA, 3 who do coaching at the schools they teach at, plus 2 current and 1 recently retired university lecturers.
Scott

MichaelBaron
18-05-2006, 06:06 PM
Surely there must be some chess playing teachers in Victoria. I know of 4 here in SA, 3 who do coaching at the schools they teach at, plus 2 current and 1 recently retired university lecturers.
Scott


But how many of these teachers would be prepared to travel to some school for 1-2 hours of chess coaching work. I think this vacancy will be filled in by some people with teaching background who is unemployed right now:hmm: .

WhiteElephant
18-05-2006, 06:17 PM
There are a few good chess teachers in Melbourne and they are employed doing just that. There is plenty of demand from schools though so the extra peripheral work has to be done by uni students, part time chess players, part time teachers, etc.

There is also the problem of a full time chess teacher having enough work. Currently, most schools which offer chess have chess clubs before school, at lunchtime or after school. Few schools currently have chess during curriculum time, though the trend seems to be that the number is increasing. So for a talented individual, working 3 hours a day plus a few extra here and there may not be sufficient to lure him to be a chess coach.

So we have the problem of companies having to create new coaches from somewhere. Like Michael said, sadlly some schools will get a substandard coach because the good coaches are busy during the time they want chess or because a crappy coach lives nearby.

MichaelBaron
18-05-2006, 11:32 PM
There are a few good chess teachers in Melbourne and they are employed doing just that. There is plenty of demand from schools though so the extra peripheral work has to be done by uni students, part time chess players, part time teachers, etc.

There is also the problem of a full time chess teacher having enough work. Currently, most schools which offer chess have chess clubs before school, at lunchtime or after school. Few schools currently have chess during curriculum time, though the trend seems to be that the number is increasing. So for a talented individual, working 3 hours a day plus a few extra here and there may not be sufficient to lure him to be a chess coach.

So we have the problem of companies having to create new coaches from somewhere. Like Michael said, sadlly some schools will get a substandard coach because the good coaches are busy during the time they want chess or because a crappy coach lives nearby.

So where do we find a solution? need to try to increase size of the marketplace i guess :doh:

WhiteElephant
19-05-2006, 09:52 AM
So where do we find a solution? need to try to increase size of the marketplace i guess :doh:

There is a finite number of schools and most are already innundated with marketing from chess coaching companies. I think what we need is for schools which currently offer voluntary chess clubs to start offering chess as a compulsory curriculum sunject. For many of them, it requires a shift in their thinking that chess is not ony a fun hobby but has many educational benefits as well.

When more schools start offering chess classes during all hours of the day, there will be enough full time work and talented people will start entering the industry, not just part timers.

WhiteElephant
19-05-2006, 10:08 AM
Or maybe we need to find new markets. Who else can we teach chess to? Older people? Yuppies? Company directors?

MichaelBaron
19-05-2006, 11:34 AM
Or maybe we need to find new markets. Who else can we teach chess to? Older people? Yuppies? Company directors?


Good Point!

bobby1972
19-05-2006, 02:11 PM
how about the unemployed with obssesive tendencies ,preferably with no family or partner so that nothing nohing will interrupt there study,the type that can surrender their souls to caissa.imagine pupils like that,man we could fill up every club in melbourne.may even get a grant from the department of human services imagine that would be a JOB for life.

MichaelBaron
19-05-2006, 02:15 PM
how about the unemployed with obssesive tendencies ,preferably with no family or partner so that nothing nohing will interrupt there study,the type that can surrender their souls to caissa.imagine pupils like that,man we could fill up every club in melbourne.may even get a grant from the department of human services imagine that would be a JOB for life.

I doubt many coaches would be comfortable getting into a room with such a student:hmm:

bobby1972
19-05-2006, 02:44 PM
its ok just get the goat :D

Igor_Goldenberg
19-05-2006, 03:15 PM
I doubt many coaches would be comfortable getting into a room with such a student:hmm:

Why not? Get the grant from the government for keeping someone out of workforce so he can also get money from the government. The opportunities seem endless ;)

Axiom
19-05-2006, 03:24 PM
i think a good business idea is to set up a chess boot camp.....you sign up for a week, of early mornings, cold showers, 12 hours study a day,mostly endings,tested daily......and those that "just dont get it" - then whippings and pushups

MichaelBaron
19-05-2006, 03:30 PM
i think a good business idea is to set up a chess boot camp.....you sign up for a week, of early mornings, cold showers, 12 hours study a day,mostly endings,tested daily......and those that "just dont get it" - then whippings and pushups


I like the cold showers bit..even if it won't make them improve, they will at very least will not be able to turn up at chessclub unshowered:D

firegoat7
20-05-2006, 04:22 PM
its ok just get the goat :D

Alternatively,

We could develop a market for non democratic middle class nobodies similar to yourself who despite all the coaching in the world really need to see a psychiatrist rather then a coach to improve at chess. I bet you the chess market place would be full of these types. Losers who decided to be normal because that was 'real life' as oppossed to the life that everybody really does live. Just remember my theory bobby- Those who cannot cut the mustard are the same nobodies who were never really prepared to give it a full go. At some point being a strong chess player scared them. They were fightened to stare in to the abyss of mediocrity as an end result. Existentially timid and unable to develop real personal strength they found strength in middle class escapism which denied that life was a means of fulfilment and not an end result. They make me sick these egotist sheep who cannot accept there own complicity in their life choices.


cheers Fg7
P.S Having said that your games at Doeberl were the best I have ever seen you play. Your a slow learner, but I really do admire your love for the game, if not your expression of others.....ok mate:hand:

jenni
20-05-2006, 04:27 PM
cheers Fg7
P.S Having said that your games at Doeberl were the best I have ever seen you play. Your a slow learner, but I really do admire your love for the game, if not your expression of others.....ok mate:hand:

Well I am glad you added this PS. :eek: I was reading the rest of it and thinking - Good Grief, what's the goat on about - Bobby played so well at Doeberl. I am glad yet again to find us in agreement....

firegoat7
20-05-2006, 04:32 PM
Well I am glad you added this PS. :eek: I was reading the rest of it and thinking - Good Grief, what's the goat on about - Bobby played so well at Doeberl. I am glad yet again to find us in agreement....

:eek: shhhhhhhhhhhh ;)

bobby1972
21-05-2006, 05:26 PM
very happy with my life choices,my young lovely wife and son,my job,even happy with my chess lately bonus,hope your as as happy with your life choices and of course your chess.wishing you happiness my friend.

Basil
21-05-2006, 06:16 PM
very happy with my life choices,my young lovely wife and son,my job,even happy with my chess lately bonus,hope your as as happy with your life choices and of course your chess.wishing you happiness my friend.

I'd like to vote that "Post of the Month".

Axiom
21-05-2006, 06:30 PM
I'd like to vote that "Post of the Month".
AND "OUCH!" OF THE MONTH TOO