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Bill Gletsos
23-02-2004, 06:57 PM
So far after 4 rounds there has been 12 games and only one decisive result.
5 of the 11 draws were under 30 moves.

Bob1
23-02-2004, 07:07 PM
So far after 4 rounds there has been 12 games and only one decisive result.
5 of the 11 draws were under 30 moves.
Are you saying that these guys order a full meal but don't eat the peas & carrots ?

ursogr8
23-02-2004, 09:14 PM
Are you saying that these guys order a full meal but don't eat the peas & carrots ?

Usually easy to know what point Bill is making. But since Bob1 is confused, can I speculate that Bill was starting to see the value of F_R chess. It would stop these GMs from getting bored with the same old opening and begin to enjoy the game from the very first move. Right Bill?

starter

eclectic
23-02-2004, 10:31 PM
Usually easy to know what point Bill is making. But since Bob1 is confused, can I speculate that Bill was starting to see the value of F_R chess. It would stop these GMs from getting bored with the same old opening and begin to enjoy the game from the very first move. Right Bill?

starter
Let's go the whole hog and have "wild 22.5" (borrowing from ICC, sort of)

That's right !!

Introducing

FISCHER-RANDOM CRAZYHOUSE !!

where both the traditional opening and middlegame theory / praxis get stuffed up

Perhaps really put the nail in the coffin by having underpromotions on the subultimate ranks so that even the endgame tablebases get disembowelled

:lol:

eclectic

ps not here to get drawn into some long debate - tongue in cheek - ok ?

Bill Gletsos
23-02-2004, 10:35 PM
Usually easy to know what point Bill is making. But since Bob1 is confused, can I speculate that Bill was starting to see the value of F_R chess. It would stop these GMs from getting bored with the same old opening and begin to enjoy the game from the very first move. Right Bill?
:lol: :lol:
In your dreams starter.

Perhaps you should really consider your other pet idea "how competetive do you want it to be?". ;)

ursogr8
24-02-2004, 07:00 AM
Let's go the whole hog and have "wild 22.5" (borrowing from ICC, sort of)

That's right !!

Introducing

FISCHER-RANDOM CRAZYHOUSE !!

where both the traditional opening and middlegame theory / praxis get stuffed up

Perhaps really put the nail in the coffin by having underpromotions on the subultimate ranks so that even the endgame tablebases get disembowelled

:lol:

eclectic

ps not here to get drawn into some long debate - tongue in cheek - ok ?

eclectic
You don't have to apologise for knocking over your own strawman. You built it; of course you can knock it over.
No debate from me.
starter

ursogr8
24-02-2004, 07:05 AM
:lol: :lol:
In your dreams starter.

Perhaps you should really consider your other pet idea "how competetive do you want it to be?". ;)

Bill,
This is your second oblique post on this thread alone.

Am I to draw any of the following conclusions
a) you don't like a competitive metric being calculated for tournaments
b) you don't like my competitive metric
c) you don't like the fact that I have dawdled on looking at the Aus. reserves figures
d) you don't think players are drawn to competitive events
e) other.
Please elucidate.

starter

ursogr8
24-02-2004, 07:53 AM
So far after 4 rounds there has been 12 games and only one decisive result.
5 of the 11 draws were under 30 moves.

Can you give us the best URL Bill?

Kerry Stead
24-02-2004, 10:00 AM
I think the Chessbase website (http://www.chessbase.com) has pretty good day summaries of what's happened.
TWIC (http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/twic.html) also has decent reports.
For live viewing, Chess FM (http://chess.fm/) is supposed to be good, but I haven't looked at it during the games.
If your Spanish is good, you can try the Official Site (http://www.marca.com/indices/ajedrez.html).
These should keep you up-to-date with the goings on in Linares.

arosar
24-02-2004, 07:19 PM
This is a very boring tourn, ain't it? Wijk was more exciting with more decisive games (thanks to a coupla Bareev whoppers I s'pose).

Is it still Rentero who runs the show? If it is, doesn't he have some kinda incentive for anti-draws or something?

AR

Bill Gletsos
24-02-2004, 07:24 PM
This is a very boring tourn, ain't it? Wijk was more exciting with more decisive games (thanks to a coupla Bareev whoppers I s'pose).

Is it still Rentero who runs the show? If it is, doesn't he have some kinda incentive for anti-draws or something?
He is no longer involved.

JGB
25-02-2004, 08:34 PM
It really is, as of yet a boring tourney! Its as if the players all have too much to lose and are to scared to try anything new. Playing over the same lines again and again. As soon as a new line is reached bothe players are too worried about losing so they agree to an early draw, or play out a game without taking a risk. Im not impressed! :hmm:

James.

Garvinator
25-02-2004, 08:52 PM
14 games of kramnik v leko is sounding really appealing isnt it :eek:

eclectic
25-02-2004, 09:18 PM
14 games of kramnik v leko is sounding really appealing isnt it :eek:Stop the complaining about Linares producing as many draws as one might find in a round of Association Football.

What do you all want ?

PAWNALTY SHOOTOUTS ??

:owned:

eclectic

ursogr8
26-02-2004, 07:14 AM
Stop the complaining about Linares producing as many draws as one might find in a round of Association Football.

What do you all want ?

PAWNALTY SHOOTOUTS ??

:owned:

eclectic

eclectic

You misunderstand.
It is not the back-end of the game that is the problem.
It is the front end which has the paralysis.
The solution is to bring on Fischer_Random.

starter

Garvinator
26-02-2004, 10:09 AM
eclectic

You misunderstand.
It is not the back-end of the game that is the problem.
It is the front end which has the paralysis.
The solution is to bring on Fischer_Random.

starter
no the problem could be the scoring system, could 3-1-0 work better in these type of tournaments :doh:

ursogr8
26-02-2004, 10:31 AM
no the problem could be the scoring system, could 3-1-0 work better in these type of tournaments :doh:

gr'gr'

Go back and read the posts in this thread again. There are two problems identified > post#1 too many draws, and >> post#12 'fear of loss' thus play same lines again and again.

Your proposed scoring system only addresses post#1. It does nothing for the root-cause problem.

So the answer to your 'doh' is No, not much.

starter

Garvinator
26-02-2004, 11:05 AM
gr'gr'

Go back and read the posts in this thread again. There are two problems identified > post#1 too many draws, and >> post#12 'fear of loss' thus play same lines again and again.

Your proposed scoring system only addresses post#1. It does nothing for the root-cause problem.

So the answer to your 'doh' is No, not much.

starter
but the players might be more willing to play for a win and not fear a loss if they know that two draws does not equal the same amount of points as a win.

eclectic
26-02-2004, 11:13 AM
but the players might be more willing to play for a win and not fear a loss if they know that two draws does not equal the same amount of points as a win.
If we want to play games then why not

10 points for a win

for draws

0 points for 1 to 10 moves
1 point for 11 to 30 moves
2 points for 31 to 60 moves
3 points for 61 to 100 moves
4 points for 101 to 150 moves
5 points for 151 plus moves

ie long hard fought draws do get rewarded

:whistle:

eclectic

ps as for fischer_random now when is its creator coming to linares to give a demo ?

ursogr8
26-02-2004, 11:18 AM
but the players might be more willing to play for a win and not fear a loss if they know that two draws does not equal the same amount of points as a win.

gg'gg'

An interesting theory of yours that the cure for 'fear of a failure' is to increase the size of the prize (3 points). Of course it is well-known from golf tournaments that the bigger the prize then the more likelihood that 'fear of failure will set-in and a mental collapse occurs. But maybe you are correct; if chess-players got 3-points for a win then perhaps their fear of loss and failure would subside enough to allow them to actually play for the win. I am not convinced. But you might like to run a poll on your conjecture.

(And this would give you a chance to stay ahead in the post count from the next poster).
starter

Garvinator
26-02-2004, 01:41 PM
gg'gg'

An interesting theory of yours that the cure for 'fear of a failure' is to increase the size of the prize (3 points). Of course it is well-known from golf tournaments that the bigger the prize then the more likelihood that 'fear of failure will set-in and a mental collapse occurs. But maybe you are correct; if chess-players got 3-points for a win then perhaps their fear of loss and failure would subside enough to allow them to actually play for the win. I am not convinced. But you might like to run a poll on your conjecture.

(And this would give you a chance to stay ahead in the post count from the next poster).
starter
just to show that im not completely obsessed by post counts :uhoh: , i believe 3-1-0 has already been talked about/debated on the old bb if my memory serves me correctly. Also I think the 3-1-0 system would only really make a difference to how players play in the super gms tournaments like linares. For the average tournament like we have here in australia, the 3-1-0 scoring system is not really required because most games in end wins/losses.

My main reason for saying that 3-1-0 might be a better scoring system in tourneys like linares is that almost everyone who is not playing in the tournament would like to see hard fought games with the players trying to win games. I dont think any decent chess person or sponsor would mind if we had the current ratio of draws to wins, as long as the players were attempting to actually win the games. But 18 move draws in the middle of a tournament does not give the impression that a player is really trying to win each game.

Lets take the current linares situation after round five i think. Leko had one win and everyone else draws only. Under the current system, leko was 1/2 point in front of the field. Under the 3-1-0 format, leko would have been two points in front of the field and the rest of the players would know that they have to win games to catch him. Something to think about perhaps.

ursogr8
26-02-2004, 01:55 PM
just to show that im not completely obsessed by post counts :uhoh: , i believe 3-1-0 has already been talked about/debated on the old bb if my memory serves me correctly. Also I think the 3-1-0 system would only really make a difference to how players play in the super gms tournaments like linares. For the average tournament like we have here in australia, the 3-1-0 scoring system is not really required because most games in end wins/losses.

My main reason for saying that 3-1-0 might be a better scoring system in tourneys like linares is that almost everyone who is not playing in the tournament would like to see hard fought games with the players trying to win games. I dont think any decent chess person or sponsor would mind if we had the current ratio of draws to wins, as long as the players were attempting to actually win the games. But 18 move draws in the middle of a tournament does not give the impression that a player is really trying to win each game.

Lets take the current linares situation after round five i think. Leko had one win and everyone else draws only. Under the current system, leko was 1/2 point in front of the field. Under the 3-1-0 format, leko would have been two points in front of the field and the rest of the players would know that they have to win games to catch him. Something to think about perhaps.

'ragy'
A good post by you with some thought-provoking ideas.
It is a pity that some of these beaut topics from the old BBs don't get replayed much. I am sure that new readers to the CK board could benefit from a re-run. Was a poll ever conducted as to the preference of players? What was the general consensus anyway?

(And you may not be obsessed by the poll-chase. But we are running a book on when you will be overtaken. And now that those one-liners in the non-chess area don't count....)

starter

Garvinator
26-02-2004, 02:00 PM
'ragy'
(And you may not be obsessed by the poll-chase. But we are running a book on when you will be overtaken. And now that those one-liners in the non-chess area don't count....)
starter
what is the market running, can i get in on the action :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ursogr8
26-02-2004, 02:03 PM
If we want to play games then why not

10 points for a win

for draws

0 points for 1 to 10 moves
1 point for 11 to 30 moves
2 points for 31 to 60 moves
3 points for 61 to 100 moves
4 points for 101 to 150 moves
5 points for 151 plus moves

ie long hard fought draws do get rewarded

:whistle:

eclectic

ps as for fischer_random now when is its creator coming to linares to give a demo ?

Geez electic

ggray puts up a good idea and then you create yet another 'strawman' only to knock it over yourself with a :whistle: .
Don't you know any other debating tactic?



Fischer_Random went over like a lemon when we tried it twice at Box Hill. I don't think it is an idea whose time has come. It has two basic problems. 1) It is more difficult than book-aided chess (aka normal chess), and so takes players out of their comfort zones. And 2) many players actually have 'reading chess books' as their hobby; a switch to F_R takes away this undoubted pleasure.




starter

ursogr8
26-02-2004, 02:08 PM
what is the market running, can i get in on the action :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What I do know 'gagy' is that every time you post one of these one line tags of (zero) value I have a dilemma as to whether to do something equally useless to keep up.
Usually I can resist. ;)

Bill Gletsos
26-02-2004, 02:09 PM
Lets take the current linares situation after round five i think. Leko had one win and everyone else draws only. Under the current system, leko was 1/2 point in front of the field. Under the 3-1-0 format, leko would have been two points in front of the field and the rest of the players would know that they have to win games to catch him. Something to think about perhaps.
Of course even under the current scoring system they have to win to catch him. In fact in rouind 6 Shirov won and has joined Leko in the lead.

JGB
26-02-2004, 04:45 PM
1 point for a win. 1/2 for a darw . Nixs for a loss is the only way.

Giving extra points for the length of a game that is drawn will not help. Players will of course play on to the 50th move continuing to take no risks (just rearanging the pieces if necessary!)

What will help; is more players who are of champion quality ready to take on risks, and win most of their games )of course easier saidf than done). That will really make the rest of the pack (the draw takers) seem of lesser quality!

Playing out draws may be ok for their rating, but no one will ever remember these guys in 100 years like Morphy, Capablanca, Alekhine, Fischer or Tal. For those greats the draw was like a loss whereas today it seems like a win in a super GM event. Of course the competion is much stronger than it was 70 or 100 years ago, but the future legends of chess will not be remembered by their best draws!

arosar
27-02-2004, 07:47 AM
Wow! Three decisive encounters.

[Event "XXI SuperGM"]
[Site "Linares ESP"]
[Date "2004.02.26"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kramnik,V"]
[Black "Topalov,V"]
[ECO "B90"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e5 7. Nb3 Be6 8.f3 Nbd7 9. Qd2 b5 10. O-O-O h5 11. Nd5 Bxd5 12. exd5 g6 13. Kb1 Nb6 14. Qc3 Be7 15. Qc6+ Nbd7 16. Bb6 Qxb6 17. Qxa8+ Nb8 18. Na5 Nfd7 19. Nc6 Bg5 20. Qa7 Nxc6 21. Qxb6 Nxb6 22. dxc6 Ke7 23. Rd3 Rc8 24. Ra3 Na4 25. c4 Rxc6 26. Be2 Rb6 27. cxb5 axb5 28. Bxb5 Rxb5 29. Rxa4 f5 30. Rd1 Be3 31. a3 d5 32. b4 d4 33. Ra5 Rxa5 34. bxa5 Kd6 35. Kc2 e4 36. fxe4 fxe4 37. Re1 1-0

[Event "XXI SuperGM"]
[Site "Linares ESP"]
[Date "2004.02.26"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kasparov,G"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons,F"]
[ECO "D45"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 b6 7. Bd3 Bb7 8. O-O Be7 9. b3 Rc8 10. Bb2 Qc7 11. Rad1 h6 12. e4 dxe4 13. Nxe4 O-O 14. c5 Nxe4 15. Bxe4 a5 16. Rfe1 Rfd8 17. Bh7+ Kh8 18. Bd3 Kg8 19. Bh7+ Kh8 20.Bd3 Kg8 21. Ba3 Qb8 22. Qc1 bxc5 23. Bb1 Qa7 24. Qc2 Nf6 25. Ne5 Rd5 26.Ng4 Rf5 27. Nxf6+ gxf6 28. h4 Kh8 29. Qe2 Ba6 30. Qe3 Rh5 31. Bxc5 Bxc5 32.dxc5 Qxc5 33. Qf3 Kg7 34. Qg4+ Kh8 35. Rd7 Rg8 36. Qf3 Re5 37. Qxf6+ 1-0

[Event "XXI SuperGM"]
[Site "Linares ESP"]
[Date "2004.02.26"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Leko,P"]
[Black "Shirov,A"]
[ECO "C42"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 Bd6 7. O-O O-O 8. c4 c6 9. Qc2 Na6 10. a3 Bg4 11. Ne5 Bh5 12. cxd5 cxd5 13. Nc3 Bxe5 14.dxe5 Nac5 15. Nxe4 Nxd3 16. Qxd3 Bg6 17. Qb3 Bxe4 18. Qxb7 Qh4 19. Qb3 d4 20. Qg3 Qxg3 21. hxg3 Rfc8 22. f3 Bg6 23. Rf2 h5 24. Bf4 d3 25. Bd2 Rc2 26. Bc3 Kf8 27. Rd2 Rc8 28. Rad1 Ke7 29. Kf2 Rc4 30. Ke3 Bf5 31. Rh1 g6 32. Rh4 Rxh4 33. gxh4 a6 34. Kd4 Kd7 35. Kc5 Kc7 36. a4 Rc1 37. g4 hxg4 38. fxg4 Bxg4 39. Rxd3 Rh1 40. Ba5+ Kb7 41. Rb3+ Kc8 42. Rb4 Rxh4 43. Rd4 g5 44. Be1 Rh1 45. Rxg4 Rxe1 46. Rxg5 Kd7 47. Rf5 Ke7 48. b4 Ra1 49. a5 Rc1+ 50. Kb6 Rc4 51. b5 axb5 52. a6 Ke6 53. Rf6+ Kxe5 54. Rxf7 1-0

Garvinator
27-02-2004, 10:09 AM
see guys what an influence i have on the chess world, as soon as i say im unhappy with the amount of effort being shown in linares, the players decide they are going to try and start winning games just for me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kevin Bonham
27-02-2004, 02:07 PM
AR, the pgns you posted had problems in places because there were line breaks in the original game scores you copied and pasted. I've edited them and fixed it.

arosar
27-02-2004, 02:14 PM
AR, the pgns you posted had problems in places because there were line breaks in the original game scores you copied and pasted. I've edited them and fixed it.

Cheers mate. Now, I need another quick favour. I'm keeping an eye on airfares virtually on a daily basis - cos they're so cheap. You reckon you could fill me in on Tassie tourns for 2004? Might be lucky and get a cheap seat!!

AR

Kevin Bonham
28-02-2004, 04:34 PM
Cheers mate. Now, I need another quick favour. I'm keeping an eye on airfares virtually on a daily basis - cos they're so cheap. You reckon you could fill me in on Tassie tourns for 2004? Might be lucky and get a cheap seat!!

AR

Probably too late for Tas Champs Burnie March 6-8. :lol: (I think entries have closed).
Tas Open + Tas Lightning Hobart June 12-14 (Tas Open probably 6 or 7 x G90) (Tas Lightning title can only be won by Tas residents but others are welcome to play)
Hobart Weekender Oct 30-31 (probably 7 x G60)
Still waiting for dates for Launceston Weekender, I think it will be 5-6 Sep (probably 5 x G90).

Kevin Bonham
28-02-2004, 04:37 PM
Another day of drawsies at Linares round 8 so that's 19/24 drawn I think.

Shirov blows it again! A clear pawn up against Gazza and fails to convert, now no wins from 30 rated games against this opponent. :(

Garvinator
28-02-2004, 04:39 PM
Probably too late for Tas Champs Burnie March 6-8. :lol: (I think entries have closed).
Tas Open + Tas Lightning Hobart June 12-14 (Tas Open probably 6 or 7 x G90) (Tas Lightning title can only be won by Tas residents but others are welcome to play)
Hobart Weekender Oct 30-31 (probably 7 x G60)
Still waiting for dates for Launceston Weekender, I think it will be 5-6 Sep (probably 5 x G90).
get rid of the sudden death finish and im a big chance to come for one tournament

Kevin Bonham
03-03-2004, 02:04 PM
get rid of the sudden death finish and im a big chance to come for one tournament

Buy us a fleet of digital clocks and you're on! :p Seriously, I think there's still only about 3 DGTs in the state and progress towards doing anything about it is slow.

Meanwhile in Linares I think there have now been seven results from 33 games. A superb effort from Leko to lose this game against Kramnik from a perfectly healthy position by trapping his own queen and getting knocked over by the tactics involved in trying to rescue it. :clap:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8. Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 gxf6 10. Nd5 f5 11. Bd3 Be6 12. O-O Bxd5 13. exd5 Ne7 14.Qh5 e4 15. Be2 Bg7 16. c3 Rc8 17. Nc2 Rc5 18. Ne3 f4 19. Nf5 O-O 20. a4 Nxf5 21. Qxf5 Qe7 22. axb5 axb5 23. Qxf4 Rxd5 24. Rfd1 Re5 25. Qe3 f5 26.Qb6 f4 27. Qxd6 Qg5 28. f3 e3 29. Ra7 Kh8 30. Qd7 Rg8 31. Qh3 Qg6 32.Rad7 Rh5 33. R7d6 Bf6 34. Rxf6 Qc2 35. Qxh5 Qxe2 36. g4 Qf2+ 0-1

Kramnik is now in the lead.

Garvinator
03-03-2004, 04:30 PM
Buy us a fleet of digital clocks and you're on! :p Seriously, I think there's still only about 3 DGTs in the state and progress towards doing anything about it is slow.
Well you could use a timer of say 40 moves in 60 mins, 20 moves in 30 moves repeating or something like that instead of a sudden death finish

Kevin Bonham
04-03-2004, 12:02 AM
Well you could use a timer of say 40 moves in 60 mins, 20 moves in 30 moves repeating or something like that instead of a sudden death finish

Those are impractical for a weekender when you need to play 3 games on one day - that is if the add-ons are to be significant. If that's your time limit(20 moves in 30 mins repeating) then for a game that goes past move 60 with both players short of time, every extra 20 moves adds an hour.

ursogr8
08-03-2004, 09:46 AM
From the CHESSBASE site

Vladimir Kramnik won clear first with Leko and Kasparov equal 2-3. The winner played seven draws of 23 moves or fewer but his two wins held up in a very tight field. 33 of the 42 games were drawn, or 79%.

starter comment
At amateur level our main problem might be finding volunteers to run Clubs, at professional level the problem is quite different it seems.

Half the winners games finished inside 23 moves, and he won 2 out of 14 games.

arosar
09-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Probably too late for Tas Champs Burnie March 6-8. :lol: (I think entries have closed).
Tas Open + Tas Lightning Hobart June 12-14 (Tas Open probably 6 or 7 x G90) (Tas Lightning title can only be won by Tas residents but others are welcome to play)
Hobart Weekender Oct 30-31 (probably 7 x G60)
Still waiting for dates for Launceston Weekender, I think it will be 5-6 Sep (probably 5 x G90).

Hey KB man, sorry to keep bothering you about this man, but recall last year I asked you about that backpacker place in Hobart? What's the name of that place again mate?

And the day of June 14, what time exactly does the whole event finished? See, I'm lookin' at flights. No guarantee yet, plane tickets are a bit high.

AR

arosar
09-03-2004, 12:06 PM
Hey KB man, . . .
And the day of June 14, what time exactly does the whole event finished? See, I'm lookin' at flights. No guarantee yet, plane tickets are a bit high.

Aactually Kevo another question mate. What time does the session on the 12 Jun start?

AR

Kevin Bonham
11-03-2004, 12:52 AM
Aactually Kevo another question mate. What time does the session on the 12 Jun start?

AR

Schedule's not quite finalised yet but will be very soon - waiting to hear back from the other organisers. First round on Saturday should start no earlier than 10:30am and no later than midday. Last round Monday usually finishes 12:30 pm. Backpacker nearest the venue is Transit Centre Backpackers, 199 Collins St, ph. 6231 2400. Another one very close by (<10 mins walk) is The Pickled Frog Backpackers, 281 Liverpool St, ph. 6234 7977, www.thepickledfrog.com. Will let you know when session times are confirmed - expect this within a week, hopefully sooner.

Bill Gletsos
11-03-2004, 12:58 AM
Aactually Kevo another question mate. What time does the session on the 12 Jun start?

AR
You could of course always play in the NSW Open over that weekend.

ursogr8
11-03-2004, 06:59 AM
You could of course always play in the NSW Open over that weekend.

Bill, AR

I was not going to advertise against the TAS OPEN, but since Bill has broken ranks >>> AR you could play in the VIC OPEN over that w/e. :)

starter

arosar
11-03-2004, 08:51 AM
You could of course always play in the NSW Open over that weekend.

But I never been to Tassie. And I only play tourn chess these days if I get a holiday with it too. We'll see about the airfares though.

AR

arosar
11-03-2004, 09:19 AM
Bill, AR

I was not going to advertise against the TAS OPEN, but since Bill has broken ranks >>> AR you could play in the VIC OPEN over that w/e. :)

starter

Actually, mate, could you gimme the details. I need the start time of the first round and the end time of the last round. I need this for coordinating flights. Also, the location for the tourn pls.

Cheers mate.

AR

(Late Edit: I just found some cheap flights to Melb starter...looks like I might come down in June. And I also found some cheap flights in Oct to HOB - so I will visit Kevo then instead).