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Bill Gletsos
16-04-2006, 03:46 PM
FIDE has announced that a World Championship Match of 12 games between Topalov and Kramnik will take place in Elista between 21 September - 13 October 2006.

See details at http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=978 or http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3045

four four two
16-04-2006, 03:54 PM
The question is ,will this match be dependant on Kirsan winning the FIDE election?:hmm:

While I'm sure the right move campaign would like to see a reunification match at some point I doubt Kalmykia would be their first choice of venue.:whistle:

Garvinator
16-04-2006, 06:46 PM
agree with 442

Duff McKagan
16-04-2006, 07:19 PM
Kirsan will win... it's in the bag. Third world countries debt to FIDE will be overlooked for a Kirsan vote. Bet on it if you can now.

Garvinator
17-04-2006, 08:23 AM
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I see one devil in the detail just been released already.

In the case of a draw after 12 games, the players will play 4 25 minute games :evil:

Desmond
17-04-2006, 09:01 AM
:In the case of a draw after 12 games, the players will play 4 25 minute games :evil:

I have a better idea:

"Veselin, I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10 ..."

four four two
17-04-2006, 09:33 AM
:evil:

I see one devil in the detail just been released already.

In the case of a draw after 12 games, the players will play 4 25 minute games :evil:

Would you prefer 25 four minute games?:hmm: ;)

I would say they decided on twelve games for a variety of reasons...Topalov didnt want to wear him self out for the other FIDE world championship and was worried that if it was 16 games that Kramnik might get better as the match went on and actually beat him. Either way I would take this match "announcement" with a grain of salt...plenty of other matches have fallen apart before...Kasparov vs Shirov,Kasparov vs Ponomariov.;)

Rincewind
17-04-2006, 10:16 AM
What's wrong with Ro Sham Bo?

Garvinator
17-04-2006, 10:16 PM
Kasparov vs Shirov,Kasparov vs Ponomariov.;)
kasparov v kasimjanov:P

pballard
18-04-2006, 05:05 PM
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I see one devil in the detail just been released already.

In the case of a draw after 12 games, the players will play 4 25 minute games :evil:

Given that unlimited matches are a thing of the past, I'd say a rapid playoff is the least bad option. Certainly better than the roulette wheel which was used in an 80s candidates match.

An even stranger detail is that the loser is eliminated from the 2007 World Championship. That's a bit like the Wimbledon runnerup being excluded from the next year's tournament.

But then the whole FIDE setup (matches to gain entry to a World Championship tournament, instead of the other way around) is bizarre.

Garvinator
18-04-2006, 07:10 PM
Would you prefer 25 four minute games?:hmm: ;)
certainly not, someone gets 13 whites;)

Garvinator
18-04-2006, 07:12 PM
Given that unlimited matches are a thing of the past, I'd say a rapid playoff is the least bad option. Certainly better than the roulette wheel which was used in an 80s candidates match.
my displeasure was for the rapid playoffs, not for the 12 game classical match. This is a reunification match for the classical world championship, not for the rapid world championship.

I think what would be better is that if the two players are tied after 12 games, they draw colours and play sudden death games at classical time controls. First person to lose one game loses the match.

Yes, this could take longer, but is better than rapid playoff games for a match of this importance.

Kevin Bonham
18-04-2006, 09:33 PM
So what happens if the four 25 minute games are drawn as well? Has this detail been released yet?

The existence of a match at all is great news, even if it is on the short side. Amazing what Kirsan can finally pull out of the bag when his re-election is on the line and this is one of the issues making people vote against him - too late for many, however.

The rapid games are annoying. I realise it was unlikely either player would have agreed to this match with draw odds for the other. However while I wouldn't mind some speedup in the time control to make a result within a defined number of games possible, going straight to rapids is too much.

Also while the exclusion of the loser from the FIDE championship after it is an amusing device to stop the inconclusive situation that would happen if the loser then won the eight-player event, what happens anyway if the winner of the Topalov-Kramnik event then fails to win the eight-player tournament?

Garvinator
18-04-2006, 09:36 PM
So what happens if the four 25 minute games are drawn as well? Has this detail been released yet?
doesnt say yet. Armageddon maybe;) :P

pballard
20-04-2006, 04:16 PM
Also while the exclusion of the loser from the FIDE championship after it is an amusing device to stop the inconclusive situation that would happen if the loser then won the eight-player event, what happens anyway if the winner of the Topalov-Kramnik event then fails to win the eight-player tournament?

Simple: the Topalov-Kramnik winner is champion from 2006 until 2007, while the tournament winner is champion from 2007 onwards.

Kevin Bonham
20-04-2006, 11:44 PM
Simple: the Topalov-Kramnik winner is champion from 2006 until 2007, while the tournament winner is champion from 2007 onwards.

Well, that could be the same even if you included the loser of T-K in the tournament. My concern isn't with the formality but about how strong the tournament winner's claim to be the best in the world will appear to the chess world in general. Then again I doubt we can hope for anything better and I think most people will accept it out of weariness with things being so much worse.

Garvinator
21-04-2006, 01:03 AM
I see Bessel is slapping fide around again, quite rightly in my opinion.

pballard
21-04-2006, 10:46 AM
Well, that could be the same even if you included the loser of T-K in the tournament. My concern isn't with the formality but about how strong the tournament winner's claim to be the best in the world will appear to the chess world in general. Then again I doubt we can hope for anything better and I think most people will accept it out of weariness with things being so much worse.

And I share that concern.

But if the Topalov-Kramnik winner agrees to put up his title in a tournament, and himself agrees that the tournament winner is the new world champion, then it's pretty hard for ordinary fans to argue against it. So I don't like the change from matches to tournaments, but I'm almost resigned to it, at least in the short term. Which I guess is the "weariness" you refer to.

I don't think it will change until the objections become reality, e.g. caused by a 3-way tie, or perhaps a suspicious loss by the last placed finisher. Just like they didn't ditch the unlimited match until what was feared (a ridiculously long match) actually happened.

The_Wise_Man
29-04-2006, 04:22 PM
So what happens if the four 25 minute games are drawn as well? Has this detail been released yet?

From Chessbase today!

The plan is for a total of 12 classical games, and if the score is level, another four rapid games, and if necessary, two blitz games and finally, a sudden death blitz.

antichrist
29-04-2006, 04:51 PM
I will be the fool again, is it possible to draw in a blitz? Both not possessing mateable material?

Garvinator
29-04-2006, 06:38 PM
From Chessbase today!

The plan is for a total of 12 classical games, and if the score is level, another four rapid games, and if necessary, two blitz games and finally, a sudden death blitz.
as i said, armageddon blitz to decide the CLASSICAL world chess championship.

Hope someone takes the king:P and the classical world championship is decided that way.

Fide, you are a pack of fools.

Kevin Bonham
05-05-2006, 02:46 PM
as i said, armageddon blitz to decide the CLASSICAL world chess championship.

:rolleyes:

They were so close to getting it bearable, too.

Garvinator
05-05-2006, 04:37 PM
:rolleyes:

They were so close to getting it bearable, too.
Memo from the ioc:

Alterations to the rules of the marathon athletics event:

If two or more runners are tied at the finish of the marathon, this tie shall be split by a 100 metre sprint run.:doh:

Kevin Bonham
06-05-2006, 01:44 PM
OK, here's a challenge for those who disagree with the blitz decider proposal: How would you do it better? I suggest the following constraints: the match must be practical, the players must stand as equals, and the format should encourage a player to win rather than the players to play for draws.

This is what I came up with in <5 minutes.

1. Irrespective of the match result both players qualify for the next 8-player WC.
2. If the match is tied, keep the 4-game rapid tiebreak.
3. If the match is still tied, title is declared vacant (ie there is no World Champion) until title is determined by next 8-player WC.

An option would be to add a 2-game rapid tiebreak after step 2.

(I am OK with rapid tiebreaks but not blitz. Rapids I can tolerate given the quality of many rapid games these days - certain FIDE finals excluded - and the increase in opening knowledge. I see that a rapid game was voted best of volume in Informator for 2004.)

Garvinator
06-05-2006, 02:43 PM
OK, here's a challenge for those who disagree with the blitz decider proposal: How would you do it better? I suggest the following constraints: the match must be practical, the players must stand as equals, and the format should encourage a player to win rather than the players to play for draws.

This is what I came up with in <5 minutes.

1. Irrespective of the match result both players qualify for the next 8-player WC.
2. If the match is tied, keep the 4-game rapid tiebreak.
3. If the match is still tied, title is declared vacant (ie there is no World Champion) until title is determined by next 8-player WC.

An option would be to add a 2-game rapid tiebreak after step 2.

(I am OK with rapid tiebreaks but not blitz. Rapids I can tolerate given the quality of many rapid games these days - certain FIDE finals excluded - and the increase in opening knowledge. I see that a rapid game was voted best of volume in Informator for 2004.)

Considering the amount of money involved ie prizemoney, sponsorships (generally) etc, I think if the two players are tied after the 12 games, they should draw colours again and play sudden death classical games until there is a winner.

Yes it has the potential to go a few games, but it is better than blitz chess. We are talking about full time professional chess players, not the general rank and file players.

I dont agree with the 8 player round robin anyways. I would rather see the classical world championship title decide by match format.

Desmond
09-08-2006, 07:31 PM
For my money:

Topalov to win 6.5:5.5

Garvinator
09-08-2006, 07:38 PM
about a week out when all the details are confirmed I will create a poll as to the result.

Garvinator
16-08-2006, 11:50 PM
A summary of the main regulations has been posted on chessbase.


Summary of the match regulations

* The World Chess Championship match will consist of 12 games, the winner is the first player to score 6.5 points or more. If the scores are level after the twelve games four tie-break games will be played. No postponement of games are allowed, except with permission of the FIDE President.

* The rate of play is 120 minutes for the first 40 moves, 60 minutes for the next 20 moves and then 15 minutes for the rest of the game plus an additional 30 seconds per move starting from move 61. However, if both players agree, then the time control used in the World Cup (90 minutes for the first 40 moves followed by 15 minutes for the rest of the game with an addition of 30 seconds per move from move 1) can be applied.

* For the tiebreak games the rate of play is 25 minutes for each player for all the moves, plus 10 seconds increment after each move. If the score is still level, the a single decisive sudden death game will be played. The player, who wins the drawing of lots, may choose the colour. White receives six minutes, black five minutes, without any increments. In case of a draw the player with the black pieces is the winner.

* Topalov and Kramnik can inspect the accommodation arranged for them three days before the first game. They can inspect the playing hall two days before the first game.

* The prize fund of the WCC match 2006 is minimum US $1,000,000 USD, and will be paid free of taxes. The sum will be shared equally between Topalov and Kramnik, independent from the final result. If a player withdraws after the start of a match without having a satisfactory reason for doing so, he shall receive no prize money. The prize fund shall be paid within seven days of the termination of the match by direct banker’s order drawn in United States Dollars on UBS, Lausanne or any other official FIDE bank.

* The playing conditions require that only the players, principals and stewards will be allowed in the actual playing area, except with the permission of the Chief Arbiter. During the playing session the following additional regulations shall be in force:

o The players are not permitted to bring into the playing area technical and other equipment extraneous to play, which may in any way disturb or upset the opponent. The Chief Arbiter shall decide what constitutes extraneous equipment liable to offend the opponent.

o A player may talk only to an arbiter or communicate with a steward, or with his opponent as permitted by the Laws of Chess.
o During the playing session, players are not allowed to leave the playing area without the permission of the Chief Arbiter.

* The players are expected to co-operate reasonably with the media. Both players are required to make themselves available for post game press conferences, of not more than 20 minutes duration, immediately after each game. Additional interviews with them can be arranged through the Press Officer and the managers of the players, but exclusive interviews will only be possible after the WCC match has been concluded.

Most of this seems pretty ordinary stuff, except for three things:

1) I see that Kirsan is trying to get his fide time control accepted as part of the match, 40 moves in 90 etc etc.
2) No postponements except with permission of the fide president, I always thought this was the domain of the arbiters.
3) Blitz is still mentioned as tie break, especially armageddon blitz :evil: :evil: :evil:

Vlad
17-08-2006, 09:43 AM
For my money:

Topalov to win 6.5:5.5

Can anybody suggest where one can bet on the result in this match?

Kramnik is gonna make me rich.:owned:

Garrett
17-08-2006, 05:27 PM
Can anybody suggest where one can bet on the result in this match?

Kramnik is gonna make me rich.:owned:
Yeah I gotta agree. In a super GM tourney Toppa, but one on one I reckon Kramnik.

EZBeet
18-08-2006, 02:07 PM
I too consider Kramnik to be the firm favourite in this match.

Maybe a poll is required?

Garvinator
03-09-2006, 04:59 PM
Play begins Sept 23 9pm est.

Southpaw Jim
05-09-2006, 10:42 PM
Looking forward to following this :)

Kevin Bonham
21-09-2006, 11:43 AM
Official site: http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp

The schedule fits in nicely for me - should be able to watch nearly all the games live (if the coverage works!) I thought I was going to miss the playoffs because of a field trip but they are actually the night before.

Garrett
21-09-2006, 12:43 PM
yeah Kev, it will start at 9pm our time wont it ? That's a little late for me to watch the whole game all the time. At least the good thing is we will know by about 10- 10:30 whether the game is going to be a dull draw or not. There probably wont be any Schevshnikov's but hopefully a Najdorf or two.

Garrett
21-09-2006, 12:46 PM
Who wants to bet on the openings in the first couple of clashes ?

When Kramnik has white I bet it will be a Sicilian Najdorf, If Toppy is white than I predict Kramnik will start out with a Caro Kann like he did against Leko a couple of years ago.

Kevin Bonham
22-09-2006, 01:54 PM
Kramnik white in game one.

Kevin Bonham
23-09-2006, 09:43 PM
Previous game in the Catalan-turned-Bogo line being played by Topalov. 8...c6 was only previously seen this game and Topalov's 12...Ba6 is new.

[Event "RUS-chT 13th"]
[Site "Sochi"]
[Date "2006.04.20"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Grischuk,Alexander"]
[Black "Moiseenko,Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E04"]


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 a5 7.Qc2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6
9.a4 b5 10.axb5 cxb5 11.Qg5 0-0 12.Qxb5 Na6 13.Qxc4 Nb4 14.Qb3 e5 15.Nxe5 Rb8 16.0-0 Qxd4
17.Rxa5 Be6 18.Qc3 Qd8 19.Rc5 Qb6 20.Na3 Nbd5 21.Qc1 Qxb2 22.Nc6 Qxc1 23.Rfxc1 Rb3 24.Nb5 Rb2
25.Nbd4 Re8 26.Nxe6 fxe6 27.Bf3 Nd7 28.Ra5 N5f6 29.Rd1 e5 30.Bd5+ Nxd5 31.Raxd5 Nf6 32.R5d2 Rxd2
33.Rxd2 Kf7 34.Rd6 e4 35.Nd4 g6 36.Kg2 Re7 37.Nc6 Re8 38.h3 h5 39.Nd8+ Kg7 40.Ne6+ Kf7
41.Ng5+ Kg7 42.Ne6+ Kf7 43.Ng5+ Kg7 44.Rc6 Re7 45.Ne6+ Kf7 46.Nd8+ Kg7 47.Ne6+ Kf7 48.Nf4 Rd7
49.Rc5 Rd6 50.Re5 Ra6 51.h4 Ra8 52.Rb5 Ra7 53.Rg5 Ra2 54.Kf1 Ra1+ 55.Kg2 Ra2 56.Rb5 Ra7
57.Rc5 Rb7 58.Ra5 Rc7 59.Rg5 Rc2 60.Rb5 Rc7 61.Nh3 Re7 62.Rg5 Nh7 63.Rc5 Nf6 64.Ra5 Nh7
65.Nf4 Rb7 66.Re5 Nf6 67.Ne6 Re7 68.Nd8+ Kf8 69.Nc6 Rc7 70.Re6 Kg7 71.Ne5 Ra7 72.Rc6 Re7
73.Rc5 Ra7 74.Rc2 Re7 75.Nc6 Rc7 76.Nd4 Rxc2 77.Nxc2 Ng4 78.f3 exf3+ 79.Kxf3 Kf6 80.Kf4 Ne5
81.Nd4 Nd7 82.Nf3 Nc5 83.Ng5 Nd7 84.e4 Ne5 85.Nf3 Nd3+ 86.Ke3 Nb4 87.Kd4 Ke6 88.Ng5+ Kd6
89.e5+ Ke7 90.Nh3 Ke6 91.Nf4+ Kf5 92.e6 Nc6+ 93.Kc5 Ne7 94.Kd6 Ng8 95.e7 Nxe7 96.Kxe7 g5
97.Ng2 Kg4 98.Kf6 gxh4 99.gxh4 Kg3 100.Kg5 Kxg2 101.Kxh5 Kg3 102.Kg5 1-0

Kevin Bonham
24-09-2006, 01:05 AM
Current position below:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 a5 7.Qc2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9.a4 b5 10.axb5 cxb5 11.Qg5 0-0 12.Qxb5 Ba6 13.Qa4 Qb6 14.0-0 Qxb2 15.Nbd2 Bb5 16.Nxc4 Bxa4 17.Nxb2 Bb5 18.Ne5 Ra7 19.Bf3 Nbd7 20.Nec4 Rb8 21.Rfb1 g5 22.e3 g4 23.Bd1 Bc6 24.Rc1 Be4 25.Na4 Rb4 26.Nd6 Bf3 27.Bxf3 gxf3 28.Nc8 Ra8 29.Ne7+ Kg7 30.Nc6 Rb3 31.Nc5 Rb5 32.h3 Nxc5 33.Rxc5 Rb2 34.Rg5+ Kh6 35.Rgxa5 Rxa5 36.Nxa5 Ne4 37.Rf1 Nd2 38.Rc1 Ne4 39.Rf1 f6 40.Nc6

Draw soon most likely.

Bill Gletsos
24-09-2006, 01:20 AM
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 a5 7. Qc2 Bxd2+ 8. Qxd2 c6 9. a4 b5 10. axb5 cxb5 11. Qg5 O-O 12. Qxb5 Ba6 13. Qa4 Qb6 14. O-O Qxb2 15. Nbd2 Bb5 16. Nxc4 Bxa4 17. Nxb2 Bb5 18. Ne5 Ra7 19. Bf3 Nbd7 20. Nec4 Rb8 21. Rfb1 g5 22. e3 g4 23. Bd1 Bc6 24. Rc1 Be4 25. Na4 Rb4 26. Nd6 Bf3 27. Bxf3 gxf3 28. Nc8 Ra8 29. Ne7+ Kg7 30. Nc6 Rb3 31. Nc5 Rb5 32. h3 Nxc5 33. Rxc5 Rb2 34. Rg5+ Kh6 35. Rgxa5 Rxa5 36. Nxa5 Ne4 37. Rf1 Nd2 38. Rc1 Ne4 39. Rf1 f6 40. Nc6 Nd2 41. Rd1 Ne4 42. Rf1 Kg6

Kevin Bonham
24-09-2006, 03:02 AM
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 a5 7.Qc2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9.a4 b5 10.axb5 cxb5 11.Qg5 0-0 12.Qxb5 Ba6 13.Qa4 Qb6 14.0-0 Qxb2 15.Nbd2 Bb5 16.Nxc4 Bxa4 17.Nxb2 Bb5 18.Ne5 Ra7 19.Bf3 Nbd7 20.Nec4 Rb8 21.Rfb1 g5 22.e3 g4 23.Bd1 Bc6 24.Rc1 Be4 25.Na4 Rb4 26.Nd6 Bf3 27.Bxf3 gxf3 28.Nc8 Ra8 29.Ne7+ Kg7 30.Nc6 Rb3 31.Nc5 Rb5 32.h3 Nxc5 33.Rxc5 Rb2 34.Rg5+ Kh6 35.Rgxa5 Rxa5 36.Nxa5 Ne4 37.Rf1 Nd2 38.Rc1 Ne4 39.Rf1 f6 40.Nc6 Nd2 41.Rd1 Ne4 42.Rf1 Kg6 43.Nd8 [43.Ne7+ A) 43...Kg5 44.h4+ (44.Nc8) 44...Kg4 45.Ng8; B) 43...Kf7 44.Nc6] 43...Rb6 44.Rc1 h5 45.Ra1 h4 46.gxh4 Kh5 47.Ra2 Kxh4 48.Kh2 Kh5 49.Rc2 Kh6 50.Ra2 Kg6 51.Rc2 Kf5 52.Ra2 Rb5 53.Nc6 Rb7 54.Ra5+ Kg6 55.Ra2 Kh5 56.d5 e5 57.Ra4 f5 58.Nxe5 Rb2 59.Nd3

according to chessbase.

Kevin Bonham
24-09-2006, 03:39 AM
Kramnik wins after massive blunder 57...f5?? by Topalov:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 a5 7.Qc2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9.a4 b5 10.axb5 cxb5 11.Qg5 0-0 12.Qxb5 Ba6 13.Qa4 Qb6 14.0-0 Qxb2 15.Nbd2 Bb5 16.Nxc4 Bxa4 17.Nxb2 Bb5 18.Ne5 Ra7 19.Bf3 Nbd7 20.Nec4 Rb8 21.Rfb1 g5 22.e3 g4 23.Bd1 Bc6 24.Rc1 Be4 25.Na4 Rb4 26.Nd6 Bf3 27.Bxf3 gxf3 28.Nc8 Ra8 29.Ne7+ Kg7 30.Nc6 Rb3 31.Nc5 Rb5 32.h3 Nxc5 33.Rxc5 Rb2 34.Rg5+ Kh6 35.Rgxa5 Rxa5 36.Nxa5 Ne4 37.Rf1 Nd2 38.Rc1 Ne4 39.Rf1 f6 40.Nc6 Nd2 41.Rd1 Ne4 42.Rf1 Kg6 43.Nd8 Rb6 44.Rc1 h5 45.Ra1 h4 46.gxh4 Kh5 47.Ra2 Kxh4 48.Kh2 Kh5 49.Rc2 Kh6 50.Ra2 Kg6 51.Rc2 Kf5 52.Ra2 Rb5 53.Nc6 Rb7 54.Ra5+ Kg6 55.Ra2 Kh5 56.d5 e5 57.Ra4 f5 58.Nxe5 Rb2 59.Nd3 Rb7 60.Rd4 Rb6 61.d6 Nxd6 62.Kg3 Ne4+ 63.Kxf3 Kg5 64.h4+ Kf6 65.Rd5 Nc3 66.Rd8 Rb1 67.Rf8+ Ke6 68.Nf4+ Ke5 69.Re8+ Kf6 70.Nh5+ Kg6 71.Ng3 Rb2 72.h5+ Kf7 73.Re5 Nd1 74.Ne2 Kf6 75.Rd5 1-0

dkTransform
24-09-2006, 04:54 AM
twelve games may not be enough, but this one game sure was a good measure of the form of both players!

WhiteElephant
24-09-2006, 08:35 AM
It was great to see Topalov going for the win but the mindnumbingly boring style of Kramnik wins out yet again.

MichaelBaron
24-09-2006, 02:05 PM
It is very sad if Kramnik ends up winning due to Topalov's fighting spirit. This is why Kramnik sticks to matches only and avoids playing WC tournaments. Topalove was a better, more creative player but simply overpressed in his desire to win.

Kevin Bonham
24-09-2006, 02:28 PM
Moved a few posts here from the "Twelve games too soft a measure" thread as it's best to keep discussion of the games on one thread now that the match is underway.


It is very sad if Kramnik ends up winning due to Topalov's fighting spirit. This is why Kramnik sticks to matches only and avoids playing WC tournaments.

Supposedly if he wins this match he will defend that title in an eight-player tournament next year so then he will have to account for himself in that environment where he will need to play for multiple wins. But I guess he figures that if Topalov is already eliminated that task will be a lot easier.

Kevin Bonham
24-09-2006, 07:20 PM
TWIC predicts a Queen's Indian tonight.

Denis_Jessop
24-09-2006, 09:27 PM
TWIC predicts a Queen's Indian tonight.

No doubt harking longingly back to Victoria and the glories of the British Empire ;) :hmm:

DJ

Basil
24-09-2006, 09:30 PM
No doubt harking longingly back to Victoria and the glories of the British Empire ;) :hmm:

DJ

Not bad. A Queen's Indian conjures up many mental images ... most unfit for publication on this BB.

bergil
24-09-2006, 09:40 PM
Not bad. A Queen's Indian conjures up many mental images ... most unfit for publication on this BB.PM me then. ;)

Phil Bourke
24-09-2006, 09:43 PM
But I guess he figures that if Topalov is already eliminated that task will be a lot easier.
How does Topalov get eliminated from the 8 player tournament for the title if he loses this match?
It doesn't make sense to have the Nr 2 player according to the result of this match ineligible for the the title next year!

Kevin Bonham
24-09-2006, 09:45 PM
How does Topalov get eliminated from the 8 player tournament for the title if he loses this match?
It doesn't make sense to have the Nr 2 player according to the result of this match ineligible for the the title next year!

I suggest check the World Championship 2007 thread for discussion of this.

Bill Gletsos
24-09-2006, 10:21 PM
[Event "World Championship Match"]
[Site "Elista"]
[Date "2006.09.24"]
[Round "2"]
[White "GM Topalov, Veselin(BUL)"]
[Black "GM Kramnik, Vladimir(RUS)"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 Bb4 8. O-O Nbd7 9. Qe2 Bg6 10. e4 O-O 11. Bd3 Bh5 12. e5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. Qe3 Bg6 15. Ng5 Re8 16. f4 Bxd3 17. Qxd3 f5 18. Be3 Nf8 19. Kh1 Rc8 20. g4

Bill Gletsos
24-09-2006, 11:10 PM
[Event "World Championship Match"]
[Site "Elista"]
[Date "2006.09.24"]
[Round "2"]
[White "GM Topalov, Veselin(BUL)"]
[Black "GM Kramnik, Vladimir(RUS)"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 Bb4 8. O-O Nbd7 9. Qe2 Bg6 10. e4 O-O 11. Bd3 Bh5 12. e5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. Qe3 Bg6 15. Ng5 Re8 16. f4 Bxd3 17. Qxd3 f5 18. Be3 Nf8 19. Kh1 Rc8 20. g4 Qd7 21. Rg1 Be7 {GM Short: Ne6!} 22. Nf3 Rc4 23. Rg2 fxg4 24. Rxg4 Rxa4 25. Rag1 g6 26. h4 Rb4 27. h5 Qb5 28. Qc2 Rxb2 29. hxg6 h5 30. g7 hxg4 31. gxf8Q+

Bill Gletsos
25-09-2006, 12:44 AM
Due to a problem with the PGN viewer not handling the promotion I have restarted after Whites 31st move.

31... Bxf8 32. Qg6+ Bg7 33. f5 Re7 34. f6 Qe2 35. Qxg4 Rf7 36. Rc1 Rc2 37. Rxc2 Qd1+ 38. Kg2 Qxc2+ 39. Kg3 Qe4

Desmond
25-09-2006, 12:48 AM
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 Bb4 8. O-O Nbd7 9. Qe2 Bg6 10. e4 O-O 11. Bd3 Bh5 12. e5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. Qe3 Bg6 15. Ng5 Re8 16. f4 Bxd3 17. Qxd3 f5 18. Be3 Nf8 19. Kh1 Rc8 20. g4 Qd7 21. Rg1 Be7 {GM Short: Ne6!} 22. Nf3 Rc4 23. Rg2 fxg4 24. Rxg4 Rxa4 25. Rag1 g6 26. h4 Rb4 27. h5 Qb5 28. Qc2 Rxb2 29. hxg6 h5 30. g7 hxg4 31. gxf8=Q+ Bxf8 32. Qg6+ Bg7 33. f5 Re7 34. f6 Qe2 35. Qxg4 Rf7 36. Rc1 Rc2 37. Rxc2 Qd1+ 38. Kg2 Qxc2+ 39. Kg3

There's a trick to it, Bill ;)

Bill Gletsos
25-09-2006, 12:50 AM
Ah so it doesnt take Chessbase generated notation. :doh:

Bill Gletsos
25-09-2006, 02:59 AM
[Event "World Championship Match"]
[Site "Elista"]
[Date "2006.09.24"]
[Round "2"]
[White "GM Topalov, Veselin(BUL)"]
[Black "GM Kramnik, Vladimir(RUS)"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 Bb4 8. O-O Nbd7 9. Qe2 Bg6 10. e4 O-O 11. Bd3 Bh5 12. e5 Nd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. Qe3 Bg6 15. Ng5 Re8 16. f4 Bxd3 17. Qxd3 f5 18. Be3 Nf8 19. Kh1 Rc8 20. g4 Qd7 21. Rg1 Be7 22. Nf3 Rc4 23. Rg2 fxg4 24. Rxg4 Rxa4 25. Rag1 g6 26. h4 Rb4 27. h5 Qb5 28. Qc2 Rxb2 29. hxg6 h5 30. g7 hxg4 31. gxf8=Q+ Bxf8 32. Qg6+ Bg7 33. f5 Re7 34. f6 Qe2 35. Qxg4 Rf7 36. Rc1 Rc2 37. Rxc2 Qd1+ 38. Kg2 Qxc2+ 39. Kg3 Qe4 40. Bf4 Qf5 41. Qxf5 exf5 42. Bg5 a5 43. Kf4 a4 44. Kxf5 a3 45. Bc1 Bf8 46. e6 Rc7 47. Bxa3 Bxa3 48. Ke5 Rc1 49. Ng5 Rf1 50. e7 Re1+ 51. Kxd5 Bxe7 52. fxe7 Rxe7 53. Kd6 Re1 54. d5 Kf8 55. Ne6+ Ke8 56. Nc7+ Kd8 57. Ne6+ Kc8 58. Ke7 Rh1 59. Ng5 b5 60. d6 Rd1 61. Ne6 b4 62. Nc5 Re1+ 63. Kf6 Re3 0-1

Chessbum
25-09-2006, 03:03 AM
An exciting but error filled game.

Desmond
25-09-2006, 08:25 AM
Wow, has a 2800 player ever demonstrated being such a fish?

pax
25-09-2006, 10:02 AM
Good article from Ian in the Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/give-piece-a-chance/2006/09/24/1159036415732.html

AhmedFaris
25-09-2006, 10:26 AM
If someone doesn't like Kramnik's style then he must start to like it !!
Kramnik plays chess as if it's a chemical formula ,no place for errors (blunders) .Topalov is a tournament player but not a world champion ! That's why he might lose by a big margin .

WhiteElephant
25-09-2006, 12:05 PM
Yes, but Kramnik's style is killing chess as a spectator sport.
I stayed up till 4am last night watching the game because Topalov made the game exciting with g4. Imagine watching Kramnik Vs Kramnik....

Desmond
25-09-2006, 12:10 PM
Yes, but Kramnik's style is killing chess as a spectator sport.
I stayed up till 4am last night watching the game because Topalov made the game exciting with g4. Imagine watching Kramnik Vs Kramnik....
Yes, I agree, and it is an absolute tragedy that Toppy didn't cash in.

arosar
25-09-2006, 01:07 PM
Comments by Svidler on game 1.

http://chesspro.ru/match/events/1/

AR

antichrist
25-09-2006, 01:17 PM
Is it in the rules that a third party can make a move? The hand of God.

Kevin Bonham
25-09-2006, 01:19 PM
It's not unusual to have some celebrity make the first move on behalf of a player in that way.

antichrist
25-09-2006, 01:23 PM
It's not unusual to have some celebrity make the first move on behalf of a player in that way.

Assuming he asks White first what move he wants? He would not want to resign on his first move because 24 moves later...........

antichrist
25-09-2006, 01:26 PM
As the game goes for at least 6 hours, are there standard lunch and toilet breaks?

Ian Rout
25-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Assuming he asks White first what move he wants? He would not want to resign on his first move because 24 moves later...........
I've wondered about that from time to time. In a football match where a celebrity kicks off it's just for effect and they return the ball and do it properly.

You would think even a non-chess playing celebrity could be trained to do it right. On the other hand if they did play chess they might think it a great joke to open with 1.g4.

Kevin Bonham
25-09-2006, 01:53 PM
Assuming he asks White first what move he wants?

Yes. I am not sure what the protocol is; whether the player says the move or writes it down for the person making it.


As the game goes for at least 6 hours, are there standard lunch and toilet breaks?

Usually in matches of this kind each player has their own rest area where there are toilets, food etc.

That was a very interesting game last night until the horrendous double blunder. It is a shame we didn't get to see what would have happened after 31...Kf8. The key line appears to run 32.Qh7 Qe2 33.Qh8+ Kf7 34.Qh5+ Kf8 35.Qxg4 Bg5 36.Re1 leading to a messy position with white with the two minors for rook and pawn and both sides' kings exposed. Probably better for white.

Also a shame we didn't get to see the fabulous endgame that would have happened after 40.Qxe4 dxe4 41.Ng5 with Nxe6 to come and all six pawns on the board are passed. :cool:

Overall though: the double blunder cancelled out and apart from that Topalov made too many little errors.

kveldulv
25-09-2006, 02:32 PM
On the other hand if they did play chess they might think it a great joke to open with 1.g4.

That reminds me of this Chessbase report (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2713) where Gorbachev did exactly that to Karpov!

Ian Rout
25-09-2006, 03:05 PM
That reminds me of this Chessbase report (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2713) where Gorbachev did exactly that to Karpov!
No doubt Putin would do the same for Kasparov.

Vlad
25-09-2006, 04:07 PM
No doubt Putin would do the same for Kasparov.

The fact that Kasparov continuously attacks Puting does not necessarily imply the above. I would think Putin is just unlikely to make the first move for Kasparov. In the unlikely event he has to do that, I would not expect g4 from Putin. He is certainly smarter than that.

angel
25-09-2006, 08:26 PM
Good article from Ian in the Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/give-piece-a-chance/2006/09/24/1159036415732.html

Nice to see chess as a blog in the sports section. Maybe we need to put some comments so the SMH knows it is popular?

Go here to make comments

http://blogs.smh.com.au/sport/

Denis_Jessop
25-09-2006, 10:11 PM
I see that the official match website has an item beginning:


Having performed d2-d4 on the first move by Kramnik’s request, the match guests of honor...

which seems to settle part of the question. I wouldn't doubt that K actually wrote the move - though not before it was made ;)

DJ

themovingman
25-09-2006, 10:33 PM
I've wondered about that from time to time. In a football match where a celebrity kicks off it's just for effect and they return the ball and do it properly.

You would think even a non-chess playing celebrity could be trained to do it right. On the other hand if they did play chess they might think it a great joke to open with 1.g4.
I think (it might have been Castro) made the initial move - which after the photos were done away with, that move was quietly retracted and the preferred one made (by the real player), a tournament in South America I think.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2006, 08:52 PM
Interview after game two here (http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?cat=0) is worth a read.

Shows that Kramnik offered a draw during the repetitions in game one, and as for missing the win in game two:


I didn’t see the mate and didn’t look for it. I figured that after 31…Kxf8 there is no win. Therefore when I saw 31…Bxf8, I was so happy that almost instantly gave a check.

Garvinator
26-09-2006, 09:09 PM
Game 3 under way.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2006, 09:37 PM
Currently at move 12 and the stem game still being followed (whether knowingly or not I am not sure) is:


[Event "FRA-chT 9900"]
[Site "France"]
[Date "1999.02.04"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Tkachiev,Vladislav"]
[Black "Solozhenkin,Evgeniy"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E02"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Nc6 6.Qa4 Bd7 7.Qxc4 Na5 8.Qd3 c5
9.0-0 Bc6 10.Nc3 cxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Rd1 Bxg2 13.Qb5+ Nd7 14.Kxg2 a6 15.Qd3 Be7 16.Bf4 Rc8
17.Nf3 Nc4 18.Na4 b5 19.b3 Ncb6 20.Nxb6 Nxb6 21.Qxd8+ Bxd8 22.e4 f6 23.Rd6 Ke7 24.Nd4 e5
25.Nf5+ Kf7 26.Be3 g6 27.Nh6+ Kg7 28.Rad1 Rb8 29.Rd7+ Nxd7 30.Rxd7+ Kf8 31.Nf7 Rg8 32.Nd6 g5
33.Rf7+ 1-0

Garvinator
26-09-2006, 09:49 PM
:hmm: Kramnik spending over half an hour in a known opening line.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2006, 10:11 PM
:hmm: Kramnik spending over half an hour in a known opening line.

Not known anymore, after 15...Rc8 it is new (Solozhenkin played that next move and ...Be7 first).

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2006, 10:59 PM
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Nc6 6.Qa4 Bd7 7.Qxc4 Na5 8.Qd3 c5 9.0-0 Bc6 10.Nc3 cxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Rd1 Bxg2 13.Qb5+ Nd7 14.Kxg2 a6 15.Qd3 Rc8 16.Bg5 Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.Rac1 Nc4

Critical position move 17 - Kramnik wimps out of very strong looking 17.Ne4 with idea 17...Nc4 18.Rac1 (provisionally !!)

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2006, 12:48 AM
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 Nc6 6.Qa4 Bd7 7.Qxc4 Na5 8.Qd3 c5 9.0-0 Bc6 10.Nc3 cxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Rd1 Bxg2 13.Qb5+ Nd7 14.Kxg2 a6 15.Qd3 Rc8 16.Bg5 Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.Rac1 Nc4 19.Na4 b5 20.b3 0-0 21.bxc4 bxa4 22.Nc6 Rxc6 23.Qxd7 Qc5 24.Rc3 g6 25.Rb1 h5 26.Rb7 e5 27.e4 Rf6 28.Rc2 Qa3 29.Qd1 Rd6 30.Rd2 Rfd8 31.Rd5 Rxd5 32.cxd5 Qxa2 33.Qf3 Rf8 34.Qd3 a3 35.Rb3 f5 36.Qxa6 Qxb3 37.Qxg6+ Kh8 38.Qh6+ Kg8 ½-½

Second critical position move 32- Kramnik apparently takes with wrong pawn; it looks like 32.exd5 was winning.

Desmond
27-09-2006, 09:44 AM
Second critical position move 32- Kramnik apparently takes with wrong pawn; it looks like 32.exd5 was winning.Susan Polgar at the time said that she was shocked by 32.cxd5. I can only assume that Kramnik was afraid of ...e4 ...f5 ideas. Or perhaps he overestimated his chances in the game line.

EZBeet
27-09-2006, 02:58 PM
Whatever you might think of kramniks' style he has got to where he is through the line of champions starting all the back to Morphy (and maybe even before, feel free to correct me on this).
Topalov, for all his freshness and vigor on the board gained the title of champion through a breakaway branch from this 'pedigree'.
I really feel that it would be a huge benefit to the cause of those who are looking to make FIDE more of a players organisation if Kramnik wins this match.

Garvinator
27-09-2006, 03:10 PM
I really feel that it would be a huge benefit to the cause of those who are looking to make FIDE more of a players organisation if Kramnik wins this match.
I want to see the candidates matches and match format for the world championship retained, instead of a tournament format, so I want to see Kramnik win for that sake as he has gained and retained the title through match play so far.

EZBeet
27-09-2006, 03:14 PM
That's it Garvin. Candidates and matches, rather then knockout tournaments are the way to go.

antichrist
27-09-2006, 03:58 PM
Peter Parr covers game 2 in today's SMH, but unfortunately the print for commentary is pretty weak.

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2006, 09:14 PM
Apparently one of the mysterious names on the Veselin Topalov team is that of a mystic or parapsychologist, as Topalov's second Silvio Danailov admits. "We do not show him in public," said Danailov, "because we are worryied about overreaction from the media. Such people do not like publicity. Sometimes he talks with Veselin, but more often chats with me. As for the starting losses, I would warn you against hasty conclusions. This did not tell negatively on Topalov’s fighting spirit."

Vladimir Kramnik's manager reacted to the presence of the the mystic: "I can tell you my personal attitude. I do not want to sound rude, but in my opinion using parapsychologists is just a lot of nonsense [a stronger expression was used]. Such things affect you only when you take them seriously, and we do not. Vladimir has a very strong personality, and he feels fully responsible for his own decisions, both at the board and outside it. So there is nothing to worry about."

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3367

Desmond
28-09-2006, 08:59 AM
Another unbalanced, exciting game last night. Kramnik must surely be the overwhelming favourite being 3-1 up, but if Toppy keeps it up, who knows what can happen.

Garvinator
29-09-2006, 01:46 AM
as I thought, the paranoia is beginning. Topalov threatens to abandon the World Championship Match

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3370

ER
29-09-2006, 03:16 AM
as I thought, the paranoia is beginning. Topalov threatens to abandon the World Championship Match

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3370

yeah i couldn't believe it! We had the under the table kicking gambit, then the yoghurt gambit, now the loo gambit! I love it!!! :clap:

Desmond
29-09-2006, 08:44 AM
as I thought, the paranoia is beginning. Topalov threatens to abandon the World Championship MatchAs I said ages ago, I'll be happy if the match is completed.

Garrett
29-09-2006, 10:57 AM
as I thought, the paranoia is beginning. Topalov threatens to abandon the World Championship Match

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3370

Yes.

Topalov might have a complaint except

1) He missed a forced draw in game one.
2) He missed a mate in three in game two.

He has no-one to blame but himself.

Denis_Jessop
29-09-2006, 06:19 PM
I'm not sure what's going on here. I see that the Fide Appeals Committee has rejected the Bulgarian appeal, partly on the ground that the Bulgarian excremental allegations were greatly exaggerated. But they have ordered the rest area toilets to be locked and both players to share a common toilet. I foresee a real dispute about who is allowed to use it and when unless there are two thunder boxes there. And is it proposed that each player be allowed to observe the other in action? :hmm: :rolleyes: :whistle:

Meanwhile there are no moves for game 4 on the official website, but there is a copy of the Appeals Committee's decision.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2006, 06:24 PM
Appeal outcome http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1122

Vlad
29-09-2006, 07:37 PM
Bulgarians published an article in one of the Bulgarian papers. The link is

http://topsport.ibox.bg/material/id_627695350/fpage_0/#clist

A short translation is as follows.

Danailov is unhappy about the decision.
1) He requests Kramnik to be followed by one of the arbiters whenever Kramnik attends the loo.
2) Danailov requests that Topalov does not shake a hand with Kramnik before a game anymore. He also does not want Kramnik and Topalov to have press conferences together...

P.S. I can't read the article myself, but I have read a Russian translation on www.chesspro.ru.

Vlad
29-09-2006, 07:43 PM
Reply by Kramnik -

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/event/kratop06/kratoppress3.html

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2006, 07:46 PM
Yes, now Kramnik is threatening to abandon the match unless his right to use his own toilet is respected and is also demanding that some of the appeal committee be removed!

His story is that he is using the bathroom for exercise between moves as the rest area is small.

Will be interesting to see if we actually get any moves tonight!

WhiteElephant
29-09-2006, 07:55 PM
From Kramnik's response:
'The Topalov team includes a parapsychologist and more people which are obviously having no other tasks as to distract and to insult Mr. Kramnik especially since their team is realizing that Mr. Topalov finds himself in a difficult situation. This is what we call an utterly unfair behaviour which is not in accordance with the FIDE Code of Ethics. The decision taken by the Appeals Committee can only be seen as another attempt to disturb Mr. Kramniks concentration since it is difficult to understand what kind of improvement it shall be to have one toilet instead of two.'

Hahaha great stuff. I love it. Makes the off board action almost as exciting to follow as the games themselves. I'm looking forward to today's game starting in an hour (if they decide to go through with it that is!)

Garrett
29-09-2006, 08:02 PM
Topalov is a sook.

Denis_Jessop
29-09-2006, 08:12 PM
Actually this off-board stuff is very reminiscent of a Kevin v. Firegoat Chess Chat encounter so it ought to make it easy for us to predict the outcome. For example, Topalov gets sh*t off ;) and tells Kramnik to drop dead so FIDE puts a 4-game ban on him taking Kramnik's lead out to 7 - 1. Topalov then goes off to play some mates on another board. And so on...

DJ

Vlad
29-09-2006, 08:23 PM
Reply by Danailov in English

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/event/kratop06/kratoppress2.html

Vlad
29-09-2006, 08:29 PM
If the match were to continue, the World Champion would refrain from shaking hands with Mr. Kramnik before the games and would not take part in joint press-conferences with him. Veselin Topalov will make statements for the media separately.

We look forward to receiving your response by 14.30 h hoping that it will give concrete answers to the questions that we pose.



It is 14.32 now.

qpawn
29-09-2006, 08:37 PM
Cynic that I am
I think that Topalov has a plan
Whine and bitch like a pom
even call for you mom
if it puts Kramnik off
Topalov will be laughing a lot
It worked for Fischer in 72
The tactics of prima donna ballyhoo

:D

Basil
29-09-2006, 08:54 PM
Whine and bitch like a pom

:uhoh:

Vlad
29-09-2006, 09:00 PM
From the Russian chat...

14.50
No game today. Kramnik requests change of the committee. Illumzinov is away. It is possible that there will be a press conference. Let us hope for the best.

Vlad
29-09-2006, 09:02 PM
From the Russian chat..

14.55
The info changes every minute. Both participants have arrived. There is a chance they will play.

Vlad
29-09-2006, 09:05 PM
From the Russian chat...

15.05
The game will start 15 minutes later. The latest info they gonna play. I do not believe it myself untill I see the first move.:))))

Vlad
29-09-2006, 09:10 PM
From the Russian chat.

15.06
Why 15 minutes delay? Gisen said because of "technical reasons". Good reason, is not it? Yeah, right; Topalov went to check the bathroom...:))

Vlad
29-09-2006, 09:19 PM
15.20

15 minutes finished. The only hope they both are in the room. There is a hope they find a solution.

Garvinator
29-09-2006, 09:23 PM
and just when we all thought that finally this match might solve all the reunification title problems :doh: :doh: :doh:

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2006, 09:45 PM
I was worried that something like this might happen - that FIDE's preference for "their" champion over the owner of the "other" title might result in a more favourable environment for Topalov.

I actually think this is total rubbish from FIDE. The players had every opportunity to request match conditions regulating visits to the bathroom and did not do so. If it was considered a potential issue then it should have been regulated in advance. Topalov can't prove Kramnik's claimed reason for visiting the bathroom so often is wrong so the whole thing is a beatup and sour grapes as well.

I wouldn't blame Kramnik if he abandoned the match immediately, but I think the cost to chess in terms of prospects for a unified world title would be terrible and already the publicity from this will not be good for the sport.

Garvinator
29-09-2006, 10:10 PM
Why would any sponsor bother?

qpawn
29-09-2006, 10:45 PM
I don't feel like making any jokes about it: it isn't funny.

If anyone thought that the bad old days of politics in sport ended when Bronstein was pressured into losing the WCC then, clearly, it is still just as bad.

Both players should have their heads bashed together. Ban them bothfrom all pro events for a year; the damage that this whole farce is doing to chess is beyong exaggeration. Imagine what the media will make of this? "Chess champs fight over loo rights " etc.

End the match now. It no longer has any point. Have amatch instead between Susan Polgar and Carlsen; I couldn't imagine those two being drama queens like this.

This is the saddest, blackest day for chess since Fischer w alked out in 72.

Bill Gletsos
29-09-2006, 10:51 PM
I don't feel like making any jokes about it: it isn't funny.

If anyone thought that the bad old days of politics in sport ended when Bronstein was pressured into losing the WCC then, clearly, it is still just as bad.

Both players should have their heads bashed together. Ban them bothfrom all pro events for a year; the damage that this whole farce is doing to chess is beyong exaggeration. Imagine what the media will make of this? "Chess champs fight over loo rights " etc. It isnt Kramnik's fault. Topalov's team essentially called Kramnik a cheat.

Also the restroom etc arre apparently part of the match conditions.
As such Kramnik is simply standing up for his rights under the match contract.

End the match now. It no longer has any point. Have amatch instead between Susan Polgar and Carlsen; I couldn't imagine those two being drama queens like this.Now you are just being silly.

This is the saddest, blackest day for chess since Fischer w alked out in 72.No, as he went on to still win that match.
With regards Fischer the saddest day was when he failed to defend the title against Karpov.

Vlad
29-09-2006, 11:05 PM
Kramnik appeared at the Makropoulos press conference and made a statement, saying that the Appeals committee is clearly biased. Kramnik demands replacing all members of the Appeals committee, and said he is prepared to play the fifth game of the match tomorrow, according to the rules accepted prior to the match.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3375

Basil
29-09-2006, 11:07 PM
Kramnik demands replacing all members of the Appeals committee...
Bloody hell. That's a straight steal from Qld chess politics! :)

Vlad
29-09-2006, 11:21 PM
At the moment Illumzinov and Zhukov are meeting with Putin in Sochi regarding development of Russian South. They have got the info but they can't leave the meeting.:)

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2006, 11:21 PM
I wonder how this can possibly get sorted out. The Fischer-Spassky dispute in '72 only got sorted because Spassky was a softie. I'll be surprised if FIDE cares enough about the credibility of their title to sort it out - they seldom have before. I'll also be surprised if Topalov wants to settle, given that he is losing the match and given that he has another title to win if Kramnik abandons the match. Kramnik might cave in but I wonder how much he cares.

Basically it appears that FIDE has erred by resolving an appeal in a manner contrary to the agreed conditions. It is like if an arbiter makes a decision that contradicts the Laws of Chess. If that is what they have done it is a terrible mistake that could easily transform the old Kasparov-FIDE feud to a new generation of players.

Vlad
29-09-2006, 11:28 PM
The meeting is about to finish. Right now Puting is giving his final speech. It would be interesting to see if they are going to make any comments.

Vlad
29-09-2006, 11:54 PM
17:45h: Kramnik appeared at the Marko's press conference and made a statement. Here are a few exerpts from it:

"Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili are very good friends of Danailov. Their actions are clearly biased in favor of Topalov. The decision to grant Danailov full access to videotapes is incorrect and outrageous. I did not sign the contract for acting in a reality show. This goes against all ethical norms and violates my privacy.

I am ready to continue the match and play the 5th game tomorrow on the conditions that were accepted prior to the start of the match. My dignity does not allow me to stand this situation. Now I am going to return to my cottage and rest."

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3375

Garvinator
29-09-2006, 11:54 PM
All that can really be said about this is that the world chess federations are getting exactly what they voted for at the Turin Olympiad. The world chess federations as a majority are getting exactly what they voted for.

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 12:02 AM
All that can really be said about this is that the world chess federations are getting exactly what they voted for at the Turin Olympiad. The world chess federations as a majority are getting exactly what they voted for.

Agreed. Would any of the local Kirsan sycophants (how many are there? one?) care to venture a comment?

Hopefully it will still get sorted out somehow. I'm not hopeful.

EZBeet
30-09-2006, 12:09 AM
The important phrase it seems to me from Kramniks' statement, is that he is prepared to play game 5 'tomorrow'...

He has already lost game 5 on forfeit so this indicates he is not going to wear the loss.

Topalov, of course will not tolerate the point taken from him.

The result...no unification match for us :(

MichaelBaron
30-09-2006, 12:18 AM
It is official now - Kramnik lost game 5 on forfeight

Vlad
30-09-2006, 01:33 AM
Zhukov gave an interview after the meeting. (Illumzinov managed to escape from the reporters.) Zhukov thinks that the match should start from 3:1; Kramnik had good enough reasons not to play.

Vlad
30-09-2006, 01:58 AM
Mig writes...

Well, this isn't funny anymore. Today's game five has been cancelled. Is Topalov out of his mind? Are all chessplayers insane? I've always joked that it seems the moment someone wins a world title, any world title, they either go into the witness protection program start behaving like a pharaoh.

So now we have the old "won't shake hands" trick. What, Topalov is worried that Kramnik doesn't wash his hands in all those trips to the bathroom? No seriously, this is ridiculous. FIDE responded to Topalov's appeal, saying Danailov's claims of Kramnik's bathroom usage were exaggerated, if "unusual" in quantity. The appeals committee decided that the players' private bathrooms should be closed and they should share one. Kramnik's team protested, although the item in they quote from the rules doesn't say the players get a private bathroom. The rest of it is aggro and distraction about favoritism that don't seem relevant to the original complaint.

So as it stands, it's Kramnik who didn't show up today to play and the official site lists him as having forfeited game five on time. I'm disgusted. This sort of mind-game BS has a long history in big matches, of course. Protests, counter-protests, the besmirched honor of suddenly virginal martyrs. What a joke. Topalov should be ashamed. I predict it will continue tomorrow with no forfeit. Wishful thinking?

Desmond
30-09-2006, 02:03 AM
Topalov should show up tomorrow, play 1. d4 and let the rest take care of itself. If Kramnik wants to do no-shows let him lose the rest of the games.

MichaelBaron
30-09-2006, 02:19 AM
Mig writes...

I predict it will continue tomorrow with no forfeit. Wishful thinking?

I predict that the match is unlikely to continue (unfortunately enough).

Two possible scenarios

a) Topalov's win on forfeight stays and Kramnik refuses to continue
b) Fide decides to continue the match from the 3:1 score and Topalov refuses to continue

Is there an option C?:hmm: I hope there is but it is unlikely

Vlad
30-09-2006, 02:29 AM
I think tomorrow everything will be under control. They will start the 5-th game. Otherwise too much noise. I do not think Illumzinov wants it. It may get him in trouble with Putin, who usually does not like crap like that.

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 03:55 AM
From Susan Polgar's blog- www.susanpolgar.blogspot.com


Open Letter from FIDE President Ilyumzhinov to Kramnik


Sochi, 29 September 2006

GM V. Kramnik

Dear Vladimir,

I am currently in Sochi, at meeting of meeting of the Heads of the Regions of the South Russian Region of the Russian Federation led by the President of Russia V. Putin.

I have carefully read your open letter of today addressed to me, and I hereby inform you of my full trust in the members of the Match Appeals Committee and their latest decision taken in respect of the appeal of Topalov’s team dated 28 September 2006.

I am also asking you in good faith to continue your participation in this match for the sake of the principles of our sport and prevention of the destruction of our long-sought efforts to organize this World Championship match, which is of utter importance for the whole world.

Millions of chess fans in the whole world are following this match with great interest and are looking forward for the just outcome produced over the chessboard and not from exchanging open letters which we are receiving from both teams. The Republic of Kalmykia and me personally as well as the Russian Chess Federation with its President, Mr. A. Zhukov have done our best in order to secure excellent conditions for the both participants. Therefore, I am kindly asking you to respect all these steps taken towards the smooth organization of the event.

Yours sincerely,
Kirsan Ilyumzhinov
President

I am sure that the Kramnik camp will notice that there is no letter to Topalov's team regarding their behaviour in all this mess. The Kramnik camp will take this as a sure sign of favouritism and Team Kramnik will walk.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the appeals committee eered as they attempted to make a compromise decision- which they admit when they say: (my bolding below)

In order that the World Championship can continue running smoothly, the Appeals Committee has decided: (a) To close both the toilets in the players’ rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players.
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players.
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players.
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov.

It is so easy in hindsight to see where mistakes have been made in the regulations, but I think one area that Team Kramnik made an error was leaving open who would be on the appeals committee. They should have insisted before the match started in having it written into the contracts as to who would be the appeals committee.

endless_knight
30-09-2006, 03:58 AM
Kram should have continued to play under protest with a reservation of rights. The changes to the initial agreement were not fatal, not a big enough deal to forfeit today. Now I see Topa's side more. Both overreacted. We have two Fischer's this time! uh-oh!

endless_knight
30-09-2006, 04:03 AM
Kramnik overreacted and should have played today after his lawyer issued a protest and made a reservation of rights so as not to waive any objections. The changes were not enough to forfeit over! It appears we have two Fischer's this time! Topa will look like a sore loser. But if Kram quits, he'll look childish too.

sleepless
30-09-2006, 07:39 AM
It's just theatre. Hopefully the match will resume after due consideration of the prize-money on offer.

qpawn
30-09-2006, 09:51 AM
The match won't resume. There is stoo much bad blood staining the floor. It's over.

MichaelBaron
30-09-2006, 11:18 AM
The match won't resume. There is stoo much bad blood staining the floor. It's over.

Agreed

Desmond
30-09-2006, 11:24 AM
So, assuming that Michael and qpawn are correct, will Topalov be crowned champion?

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 11:52 AM
It is so easy in hindsight to see where mistakes have been made in the regulations, but I think one area that Team Kramnik made an error was leaving open who would be on the appeals committee. They should have insisted before the match started in having it written into the contracts as to who would be the appeals committee.

I agree with this comment. I think that Kramnik was too naive and trusting about the extent to which attempts to manipulate the match by bias towards Topalov would be made. I expected such attempts, which was my main reason for intuitively suspecting that Topalov would win, but I thought it would be far more subtle than this.

I don't think Kramnik is going to resume for the sake of the prizemoney. If he walks he will sue FIDE for it citing breach of contract so he probably figures he will eventually get it all anyway.

Desmond
30-09-2006, 11:59 AM
I think you're right about the prizemoney Kevin. They should have had bonuses for wins. It would make the match more interesting.

Ian Rout
30-09-2006, 12:56 PM
I think that Kramnik was too naive and trusting about the extent to which attempts to manipulate the match by bias towards Topalov would be made.
I don't see where you get "bias" from. The results of games 1 to 4 were allowed to stand and no penalty or adverse finding was made. A direction was given to both players regarding future behaviour; the rule is the same for both and does not favour either.

The principle that players may not receive any sort of assistance is one of the sacred principles of the game and the only way it can be enforced and be seen to be enforced is if the players are visible for the whole game. Allowing players to escape scrutiny to go to the toilet is a practical concession but to use that concession to spend excessive lengths of time out of view is an abuse of the spirit in which it is given.

While nobody seriously believes that Kramnik is doing anything untoward while out of view, I don't see the "right" to hide from the view of arbiters and opponents for excessive and unnecessary periods to be a noble cause on which to take a principled stand. If Kramnik were behind in the match I doubt he would get much sympathy - it's only because he is ahead and can make it seem that Topalov is a bad loser that he has any chance to get away with it.

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 01:32 PM
I don't see where you get "bias" from. The results of games 1 to 4 were allowed to stand and no penalty or adverse finding was made. A direction was given to both players regarding future behaviour; the rule is the same for both and does not favour either.

I'm vaguely open to the idea that it was complete incompetence rather than bias. It's a fact that the Appeals Committee have imposed changes to the players' restroom conditions when those conditions had been previously signed off on, so they cannot make that decision without Kramnik's agreement. According to Kramnik the appeal by Topalov was not even lodged within the stipulated window, although I do not know for a fact whether this is true.


The principle that players may not receive any sort of assistance is one of the sacred principles of the game and the only way it can be enforced and be seen to be enforced is if the players are visible for the whole game. Allowing players to escape scrutiny to go to the toilet is a practical concession but to use that concession to spend excessive lengths of time out of view is an abuse of the spirit in which it is given.

Kramnik's stated reason for doing so was lack of sufficient exercise space within his rest area - nobody has challenged or refuted this explanation. The environment was already teeming with security systems set up to prevent the use of computers, including electronic interference systems to jam outside communications.


While nobody seriously believes that Kramnik is doing anything untoward while out of view, I don't see the "right" to hide from the view of arbiters and opponents for excessive and unnecessary periods to be a noble cause on which to take a principled stand.

I actually find the whole idea that a player should need to be under video surveillance in their rest area at all ridiculous to begin with. Set up adequate security systems to ensure there is no way anyone can bring a computer or other device into the rest room area to begin with and there is no need for all this nonsense.

Garrett
30-09-2006, 01:48 PM
Well said Kevin :clap:

Denis_Jessop
30-09-2006, 02:27 PM
I don't see where you get "bias" from. The results of games 1 to 4 were allowed to stand and no penalty or adverse finding was made. A direction was given to both players regarding future behaviour; the rule is the same for both and does not favour either.

The principle that players may not receive any sort of assistance is one of the sacred principles of the game and the only way it can be enforced and be seen to be enforced is if the players are visible for the whole game. Allowing players to escape scrutiny to go to the toilet is a practical concession but to use that concession to spend excessive lengths of time out of view is an abuse of the spirit in which it is given.

While nobody seriously believes that Kramnik is doing anything untoward while out of view, I don't see the "right" to hide from the view of arbiters and opponents for excessive and unnecessary periods to be a noble cause on which to take a principled stand. If Kramnik were behind in the match I doubt he would get much sympathy - it's only because he is ahead and can make it seem that Topalov is a bad loser that he has any chance to get away with it.

I respectfully must disagree with Ian in several respects.

First, the mention of bias by Kevin is clearly not confined to the actual games and I believe that there is a fair indication that Kramnik and Topalov are not being treated equally in this dispute. Ilyumzhinov's letter to K but not to T is, as has already been mentioned, a clear example.

Moreover, there is no doubt that the appeal by Topalov contained a clear implication of cheating, barely stopping short of actually saying so. It said, among other things:


The logical question arises: How many times during a game does a player need to go to the bathroom and with what regularity? The logical answer is: between 5 -10 times at the most, but not 50 as the statistics from the games played so far shows.

We would like to once again remind you that the bathroom is the only place without video or audio surveillance.

In our opinion these facts are quite strange, if not suspicious.
...............
If a player needs to go to the bathroom, he can use the public bathroom, but only with permission from the Arbiter and accompanied by an assistant arbiter.

The Appeals Committee found the claims of the number of visits to be exaggerated:


In the appeal there is an exaggeration of the number of times that Mr. Kramnik visited the toilet. Despite there being an unusual number of visits, this is insufficient on its own to come to a conclusion.

Yet the committee went on to vary the agreed match conditions by closing the rest area toilets.

The text of the Topalov appeal makes it clear that his camp


seriously believes that Kramnik is doing {something} untoward while out of view

or, if it doesn't, it's behaviour is reprehensible.

When the match conditions were agreed both players apparently thought that the provision of rest area toilets was reasonable and proper so why is one party now complaining in an exaggerated manner (as found) and yet getting away with it.

Also I think that


The principle that players may not receive any sort of assistance is one of the sacred principles of the game and the only way it can be enforced and be seen to be enforced is if the players are visible for the whole game. Allowing players to escape scrutiny to go to the toilet is a practical concession but to use that concession to spend excessive lengths of time out of view is an abuse of the spirit in which it is given.

is in a way accepting the Topalov view.

My own view on what we know is that the behaviour of the Topalov camp in this matter is quite unsporting, especially as he is losing, and is clearly designed to intimidate and to upset Kramnik. Note that I said unsporting, not unprofessional, as I fear that true sporting behaviour and professionalism no longer coincide in this arena.

DJ

PS The result of game 4 has been allowed to stand but where are the moves - was it really played? :uhoh: :hmm:

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 04:44 PM
Maybe this aggro should have been anticipated given the unusual situation of FIDE conducting a unifier between its title and another World Championship title - there is no real precedent for this situation.

If the match collapses, any further unification attempt should be run by a neutral body.

I have seen no breaking news on this so I have no idea whether we will see play tonight. Hard to see how it can be resolved but odder things have happened. Fischer took his forfeit on the chin because Spassky agreed to give him what he wanted. Maybe if all the nonsense stops apart from some token concession (like Kramnik's proposal to seal the toilets between sessions), Kramnik might be willing to continue with a 3-2 lead.

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 05:24 PM
I have seen no breaking news on this so I have no idea whether we will see play tonight. Hard to see how it can be resolved but odder things have happened. Fischer took his forfeit on the chin because Spassky agreed to give him what he wanted. Maybe if all the nonsense stops apart from some token concession (like Kramnik's proposal to seal the toilets between sessions), Kramnik might be willing to continue with a 3-2 lead.
I dont think this will happen. Kramnik has 'lost' one of his white games and now faces two black games in a row if tonight is considered as Game 6.

I would say that the only way that the match will continue is if Kirsan makes a sweeping decision of some kind, hence the last option in the poll. I dont see this happening however as Kirsan has already written support in favour of the appeals committee.

Regarding the appeals committee, it seems strange, but not surprising, that only one of the three on the appeals committee are IA's- Information gained from the fide website. Maybe I missed something.
But if only one of the three are IA's, then it does seem a 'strange' choice of committee,especially considering that Makrapolous and Azmaiparashvili are on the fide committee. I can see how allegations of bias are easy to be read into and when someone is of this opinion, it is almost impossible to change their mind.

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 05:35 PM
Another factor here is Kirsan's potential conflict of interest as president of a republic of Kramnik's nation. If Kirsan does not resolve this he will be much hated in Russia and the implications for the game of any rift between Russian chess and FIDE over the matter could be huge. Though I wonder whether Putin would have even considered a chess situation to be something worth talking about with Kirsan.


I would say that the only way that the match will continue is if Kirsan makes a sweeping decision of some kind, hence the last option in the poll. I dont see this happening however as Kirsan has already written support in favour of the appeals committee.

True, though it remains to be seen whether this is merely an ambit offer for the sake of diplomatically supporting the appeals committee or whether it is his permanent position.

I do think Kramnik's demand for the appeal committee to be replaced on account of one clearly incorrect decision and the appearance of bias is excessive. As Seirawan suggests the decision should be overturned and the appeals committee should remain in place, provided they do not make further similar mistakes. While bias rather than incompetence seems the most likely explanation for their error, they should still be given the benefit of the doubt too.

However in a situation like this it is normal that both sides make excessive demands in the hope that some small portion of those demands will be accepted.

Garrett
30-09-2006, 05:49 PM
but odder things have happened. Fischer took his forfeit on the chin because Spassky agreed to give him what he wanted.

An important difference between Fischer and Kramnik is that Kramnik is already world champion and doesn't have to put up with all this shit.

MichaelBaron
30-09-2006, 06:03 PM
So, assuming that Michael and qpawn are correct, will Topalov be crowned champion?

This is the biggest question of all for now:hmm:

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 06:29 PM
I am tipping this picture to be todays general state of affairs.

ElevatorEscapee
30-09-2006, 06:34 PM
Yet again top level International chess becomes a farcical 'human interest' story for the worlds' media... :lol:

PS try Immodium™ Vlad, it works for me! :D

Vlad
30-09-2006, 06:37 PM
I don't see where you get "bias" from. The results of games 1 to 4 were allowed to stand and no penalty or adverse finding was made. A direction was given to both players regarding future behaviour; the rule is the same for both and does not favour either.

What you have said is true only under assumption that players are homogeneous. If there is any heterogeneity that implies that the same change in the conditions will affect one party more than the other. That is exactly the point of the full discussion. AK decided to close the toilets, which is exactly what Kramnik's weakness is. He already explained many times that he has medical conditions and he needs access to the bathroom all the time. I am pretty sure he will be happy to have an attendant in the bathroom if Danailov has paranoia. This is in fact what happened during Kramnik - Kasparov match.

I think the real reason why Danailov is so mad, is because before the competition Kramnik insisted on anti-computer restrictions. Suddenly Topalov is not Topalov anymore. One just needs to have a look at faces of Topalov and Danailov yesterday. That alone is enough to see that all accusations made by Morozevich, Kasimdzanov and other leading chess players are true.

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 06:57 PM
Well, in about 150 mins from now, all our blabberings will count for zero and we will find out the what the reality really is.

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 07:10 PM
Another point about the whole farce is that the idea of making players share a toilet is ridiculous. What happens if they confront each other in the toilets? Maybe if they were accompanied by guards until they entered the cubicle, they each had their own cubicle, and there was no way material could be transmitted from one cubicle to another, it might work out OK, but I've seen no mention of that being the plan.

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 07:25 PM
Another point about the whole farce is that the idea of making players share a toilet is ridiculous. What happens if they confront each other in the toilets? Maybe if they were accompanied by guards until they entered the cubicle, they each had their own cubicle, and there was no way material could be transmitted from one cubicle to another, it might work out OK, but I've seen no mention of that being the plan.
I am sure most people would think that the reason both players have separate rest rooms and toilets is so the contact between them is minimised during the games. Seems strange, again, to start off with separate rooms, which nobody had a problem with and then change it to the situation that normally is tried to be avoided at all costs.

Leonid Sandler
30-09-2006, 07:29 PM
Latest news :Technical time-out announced for today.Apparently both players are ready to continue but with different score.Topalov wants to have 2-3 but Kramnik 3-1.
FIDE President is actively searching for the solution.

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 07:38 PM
Latest news :Technical time-out announced for today.Apparently both players are ready to continue but with different score.Topalov wants to have 2-3 but Kramnik 3-1.
FIDE President is actively searching for the solution.
how do you know this?

qpawn
30-09-2006, 07:46 PM
Kevin makes a good point; if there is no trust between the players and they share a bathroom what is to stop one of the camps saying " the other player threatened me to move x or said "if you move y then I will pay you such and such dollars" etc.

You can't have a WCC if the two players can't trust one another.

I wonder what would happen if FIDE suggested that the moves of both players be compared afterwards to those of an engine to try to stop any cheating. Just a thought. I mean it is what happens with school assignment cheating isn't it: there is a program that teachers can use to suss out any cheating with internet stock papers etc.

I find the whole incident so sickeningly farcical that I am not interested in following top level chess anymore. They can all go to hell. I am happy with my postal chess. What we saw today in the AFL grand final, and will hopefully see again tomorrow in the league, is at least a full blooded contest. Not a full-bladdered contest. :mad:

Basil
30-09-2006, 07:50 PM
You can't have a WCC if the two players can't trust one another.
And apparently nor a WC, either :)

Denis_Jessop
30-09-2006, 08:21 PM
If the match collapses, any further unification attempt should be run by a neutral body.

As between us we have probably ruled out the ACF :rolleyes: I suggest the Papua New Guinea Chess Federation as one of the few possibly neutral bodies around :clap: Shaun Press where are you when the world needs you :wall:

In an earlier post I made the point about the shared toilet problem which actually creates all sorts of fascinating possibilities.

I notice that someone in Kramnik's camp has already suggested that the toilets are policed by the local security forces so the level of trust in Elista must be in the minus zone by now.

I'm not quite sure how Kirsan will live this down especially as he is also out of the country. Perhaps, when speaking of conflicts of interest, Kevin, there may be a real one between his role as President of Kalmykia and as President of FIDE.

DJ

Denis_Jessop
30-09-2006, 08:27 PM
This is the most recent item on the official website


FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov accepted the proposal of the Chief Arbiter of the World Chess Championship Match Topalov-Kramnik Mr. Geurt Gijssen to postpone the Game of today. In his Letter to the players, the FIDE President calls the players to discuss the actual situation and solve the problems.

I wonder why the President of FIDE or someone authorised by him doesn't try to resolve the problems by conciliation. :hmm:

DJ

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2006, 08:27 PM
Latest news :Technical time-out announced for today.Apparently both players are ready to continue but with different score.Topalov wants to have 2-3 but Kramnik 3-1.
FIDE President is actively searching for the solution.

This appears correct. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=70398

I'm rather pleased about this provided the match continues. I'm going out tonight and don't want to miss any chess. :D

Perhaps they should split the difference and resume with the score 3-1.5 in Kramnik's favour and either seven or eight games to go. That would have the added advantage of getting rid of the stupid tiebreaks! :cool: :cool: :owned:

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 08:31 PM
Playchess is saying game postponed

qpawn
30-09-2006, 08:31 PM
I suggest the following bodies as being reputable and neutral:

[1] The Chess Association of Antarctica

[2] The Chess Association of Belize [ Well they are a tax haven so they have an excellent degree of amoral aloofness.]

[3] The Pope. All he asks is that neither player use contraceptives during the match.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

EZBeet
30-09-2006, 08:40 PM
This from the tournament rules on the official site upholds Kramniks' claim that Team Topalovs' appeal was in fact illegal anyway. It obviously took them too long to think up.

3.17 Appeals Committee.

3. 17. 1 The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player.

All protests must be submitted in writing to the Appeals Committee not more than two (2) hours after the relevant playing session, or the particular infringement complained against.

Official Rules (http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1081)

Garvinator
30-09-2006, 11:52 PM
From John Nunn, chessbase article:


John Nunn: 'It's about imposing your will on the opponent'
30.09.2006 After Yasser Seirawan another highly repected grandmaster has written to us, presenting his opinion on the current crisis in the World Championship match in Elista. John Nunn, who worked in the GMA and has vast experience in the mechanics of such events, says once again chess has shot itself in the foot.

The Kramnik – Topalov dispute

In many disputes between top chess players, there is no clear right and wrong – forming a clear opinion from the letters of protest, contradictions and mutual accusations is virtually impossible. However, the Kramnik-Topalov case is an exception.

We have to start with the background. Topalov and his team have worked closely with FIDE for some time. Topalov is the FIDE champion and he supported Ilyumzhinov’s re-election campaign. Kramnik, by contrast, is much more an outsider. His world championship title derived from Brain Games and then the PCA, so he has had much less contact with FIDE.

The current match is FIDE organised and sponsored, and is being played in FIDE’s home territory of Kalmykia. To avoid any suspicion of favouritism, it would have made sense for all the match officials to be clearly independent and unbiased. Instead, what do we have? The Appeals committee consists of Georgios Makropoulos (Deputy President of FIDE), Zurab Azmaiparashvili (Vice-President of FIDE) and Jorge Vega (FIDE Continental President for the Americas) – a selection which can hardly inspire confidence in the impartiality of the Appeals Committee. Nor are the members of the Appeals Committee especially qualified for such a potentially sensitive post, since only one of the three (Vega) is an International Arbiter and only one (Azmaiparashvili) has any experience of high-level chess.

The first extraordinary act was the handing over of the video of Kramnik in his rest room to Topalov’s team. This could easily be used against Kramnik, for example by seeing if he looked agitated after a particular move in the opening. This act was so obviously wrong that one can hardly imagine it being committed by an unbiased person.

Next was the ‘toilet protest’ from Topalov’s team. Notice that not only has Kramnik not been proved to have done anything wrong, there isn’t even a single piece of evidence that he has done anything wrong. All he has done, apparently, is to wander in and out of his bathroom – a bathroom which, one must remember, was open to inspection at any time before the game.

However, this didn’t stop the Appeals Committee from deciding to lock Kramnik’s bathroom. This may not sound such a serious matter, but chess at the highest level is largely about psychology and the imposition of your will on the opponent. Achieving this away from the chessboard could easily be the first step towards doing the same on the board itself. The organisers have stated that they do not believe Kramnik is cheating; in that case, where is the logic in punishing Kramnik by making a decision that is so obviously favourable to Topalov? Moreover, Topalov declared that he would not shake hands with Kramnik. There is no requirement in the Laws of Chess that the players shake hands before the game, but not to do so is a substantial insult.

It is hard to avoid the impression that Topalov’s team realised that it would be an uphill struggle to win two games from eight (and against a player who went 15 games without loss against Garry Kasparov!) and decided to launch a psychological attack. Such tactics are far from unknown in top-level chess, but they are usually frustrated by the fair and common-sense approach of match officials, an approach which has been notably lacking in Elista. Not only was the actual decision of the Appeals Committee clearly wrong, it was also wrong to start Game 5 without any kind of agreement between the players. The result has been to plunge the whole match into crisis, since now that Topalov has been awarded Game 5 by default, it is hard to see him playing it again.

Once again chess has shot itself in the foot; who will want to sponsor a top-level chess match if the whole thing can grind to a halt over a dispute about a toilet? At least when the 1984/5 Karpov-Kasparov match was controversially terminated by the then FIDE President Campomanes, the players had managed to entertain the chess public with 48 games before everything collapsed in chaos. Apparently today’s players only have the stamina to manage 4!

John Nunn

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 02:29 AM
The "handshake" thing is irrelevant - it is a way that players can indicate dislike of their opponent without taking things to an unacceptable level, and I think it is better if they do so that way than some other way (if only that was all that was going on here).

Apart from that trivial point I completely agree with Nunn's article.

Kirsan's statements of today on the official site don't look too bad but we still have to see if he can actually broker a settlement, and if so what it is.

ER
01-10-2006, 07:10 AM
Kirsan
Kick them both out and bring back Bobby and Anatoly. If we are to start allover again let's do it the proper way!:)
Cheers and good luck!

Desmond
01-10-2006, 09:57 AM
Is the official score now 3-3 or 3-2?

EZBeet
01-10-2006, 10:33 AM
Is the official score now 3-3 or 3-2?


There is no 'official' score at present.

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 11:18 AM
I think Kirsan has already made a mistake with the negotiations, he is dealing with Topa's manager instead of Topalov himself. Kirsan should be speaking to both players directly and making them take responsibility for their own actions. Then there can be no buck passing or blaming others.

Igor_Goldenberg
01-10-2006, 11:34 AM
My own view on what we know is that the behaviour of the Topalov camp in this matter is quite unsporting, especially as he is losing, and is clearly designed to intimidate and to upset Kramnik. Note that I said unsporting, not unprofessional, as I fear that true sporting behaviour and professionalism no longer coincide in this arena.


Well said, I totally agree.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 01:27 PM
I think Kirsan has already made a mistake with the negotiations, he is dealing with Topa's manager instead of Topalov himself. Kirsan should be speaking to both players directly and making them take responsibility for their own actions. Then there can be no buck passing or blaming others.

I am frequently tempted to use the word "owner" instead of "manager" to describe Danailov's relation to Topalov. Topa himself comes across as an amiable soul but his entourage is another matter.

Actually one thing I don't like about Kirsan's interview is the way he is making it sound like this is all the players' fault when the issue would not have arisen but for the incompetent resolution imposed by the FIDE Appeals Committee. A competent Appeals Committee would have given Topalov's initial challenge short shrift leaving Topalov with the choice of quitting over nothing he could prove while down 3-1, which would be very widely seen as just a dummy-spit, or getting on with playing some chess. As such Kirsan should be taking the lead in admitting that the problem is not just created by the players.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 02:14 PM
From Kirsan's interview it seems that noon today match time (3 hours before game start) is the deadline for an agreement to be sorted out.

Vlad
01-10-2006, 02:46 PM
The following story was told by Kramnik.

When he was signing in the hotel, one of the attendants there asked him - "Is it true that Kasparov is sitting in the toilet and telling Kramnik the moves?"

Garrett
01-10-2006, 02:46 PM
Is the official score now 3-3 or 3-2?

If you think it's confusing now just wait until Kirsan runs out of fingers.

qpawn
01-10-2006, 02:58 PM
Maybe the whole system for teh world chamoionshipo has to be changed.

If you had a "world cup" format with a league etc. then this shenanigans wouldn't matter as much becuase there would be many other players there to take the title instead.

Desmond
01-10-2006, 03:00 PM
<groan> here we go

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 04:06 PM
From Kirsan's interview it seems that noon today match time (3 hours before game start) is the deadline for an agreement to be sorted out.
Two hours to go according to this time line and no word yet. Looks like this match is toast.

MichaelBaron
01-10-2006, 04:24 PM
Two hours to go according to this time line and no word yet. Looks like this match is toast.

I am still very sure that the match will not continue...:(

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 06:14 PM
Press-release



On 29-30 September 2006, in City Chess the FIDE President has held several rounds of negotiations with the representatives of the World Chess Championship match participants. Despite existing deep contradictions in the approaches for the settlement of the conflict situation, the parties have succeeded in reaching considerable progress.

Firstly, the issue of the bathrooms for the players has been solved. The team of V. Topalov has agreed for opening the bathrooms in the restrooms of the players. Also, an agreement has been reached that the players will be using the restrooms permanently assigned to each of them during the whole duration of the match. The both teams will be provided with a possibility of thorough inspection of the respective opponent’s bathroom.

Secondly, the members of the Match Appeals Committee with the aim of assisting to the FIDE President in finding a solution in this conflict situation and fully realizing the necessity to continue the match, have submitted a letter with their voluntary resignation to the FIDE President. The petition has been satisfied. Until the appointment of the new members and their arrival in Elista, the functions of the Appeals Committee will be performed by the FIDE President.

At the same time there is a continuation of the negotiations in respect of the issues, which have remained unsettled.

The FIDE President once again addresses both parties with an appeal to meet each other halfway in order to continue the match for the sake of the millions of chess fans who are impatiently waiting for the peaceful outcome of the conflict.

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 06:15 PM
Appeals committee- have submitted a letter with their voluntary resignation to the FIDE President. and not a moment too soon.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 06:30 PM
It is interesting to see that Topalov has conceded substantial ground over the toilets issue. Of course he can afford to do this because a willingness to compromise strengthens his hand when it comes to what is now a bigger issue: the match score.

I'll be impressed if play starts on time today. And yes, good riddance to the appeals committee but at the same time their decision to resign should be praised. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Let's hope that if the match gets back underway, nothing else dodgy happens, because Kirsan himself is conflicted by both his presidencies - albeit in opposite directions!

Vlad
01-10-2006, 07:12 PM
Apparently Kirsan suggested having 14 games rather than 12 and starting from 3:1. Topalov agreed, while Kramnik did not.

On the one hand if you think about everything being started by Topalov with no reason at all, accepting this offer could be considered as a loss to Kramnik. A couple games later Topalov may want to increase the match till 16 by attacking Kramnik on some other issue.

On the hand one should take into account the fact that Kramnik had a unexpected two day rest, which I think he needed. In addition to that if you think about us observers, two additional games is a compensation for all this crap in the last few days.

I really hope Kramnik will accept this offer.

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 07:18 PM
On the hand one should take into account the fact that Kramnik had a unexpected two day rest, which I think he needed. In addition to that if you think about us observers, two additional games is a compensation for all this crap in the last few days.

I really hope Kramnik will accept this offer.
I wouldnt be calling it a rest at all as a lot of nervous and physical tension would have been spent on all this.

In all the negotiations, can they negotiate away the rapid and blitz tiebreaks please;) :uhoh:

Vlad
01-10-2006, 07:25 PM
My point was that the offer is possibly not 100% fair to Kramnik but at least is a reasonable compromise. I really hope for the sake of chess Kramnik will accept.

I can’t see how tiebreaks are relevant. Kramnik is the best match player leading +2.:)

Vlad
01-10-2006, 08:05 PM
From www.chessbase.com

The point I have made two days ago...:)

Jake Palmer, NY, NY, USA
At NSA headquarters we recorded the following conversation between Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, President of the Russian Republic of Kalmykia, and Vladimir Putin, President of the Russian Federation. Due to the intelligence technology used (bugs) we could only record one side of the conversation. Anyway, here it is:

- Vladimir? Oh, sorry, I need to speak to Vladimir Putin. I have been waiting for an hour now.

- No, I don't have an appointment. He asked me brief him on the chess match, when there are new developments. Okay, I'll wait...

- Vladimir, is it you? Oh, good. Well, the match is over...

- Yes, I know, but one of the players had to be disqualified after game four. Kramnik. Yes, our Russian world champion. It was because of the number of times he was visiting the toilet. His opponents claimed it was too often and very suspicious...

- Topalov. The Bulgarian. Yes, he is now the world champion...

- No, actually he was trailing by 1:3, and Kramnik was looking very solid. But we had to disqualify him...

- Vladimir, please be reasonable. It was not my decision...

- Vladimir, I know you are very upset, and I can understand that, but it was the Appeals Committee that took the decision and awarded the title to the Bulgarian...

- The "Appeals Committee". They control the outcome of the match.

- One is Greek, one is Mexican and one I forget. Okay, don't shout. He's Georgian. And the Chief Arbiter is Dutch. Yes, they disqualified the Russian and awarded the title to the Bulgarian...

- Yes, I know I am the President of Kalmykia, and am paying for the event. But it is their decision, and even if I don't agree with it...

- Vladimir, you are shouting again. You are very upset, I can see that. I think it is better to continue this discussion later...

- What do you mean? Yes of course I want to keep my position. You nominated me yourself a last October.

- Vladimir, look, I really think it is better to continue talking when you calm down. I'm hanging up now. No really. Alexander is calling on the other line. Alexander Zhukov, your deputy. Yes, the Chess Federation guy. They say he sounds very angry.

- Talk to you later, Vladimir. And please don't do anything rash. I'll find a way out of this mess. I promise.

- (Deep, long sigh, then click. End of conversation.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 08:08 PM
Apparently Kirsan suggested having 14 games rather than 12 and starting from 3:1. Topalov agreed, while Kramnik did not.

I reckon Kramnik should accept that. I won't blame him if he doesn't, since there is no reason the original conditions should change, but if he can get out of forfeiting a game in protest with nothing but a longer match, then that is a good practical outcome. When you take the extreme step of forfeiting a game in protest you have to expect to wear some kind of change as a result.

However he may have other commitments such that the extra time is inconvenient.

MichaelBaron
01-10-2006, 08:28 PM
Some issues have been resolved but the key obstacle to continuation of the match remains. Unless Kramnik agrees to 3-2, the match will not continue

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2006, 08:33 PM
Declaration of the Russian Chess Federation

The Russian Chess Federation expresses its regret that Grandmaster Topalov (Bulgaria), in his match for the world championship against Vladimir Kramnik (Russia), should have resorted to incorrect methods of behaviour. Such events should be decided in an honest struggle at the chessboard, and not by poring over video footage of Kramnik in his rest room, and counting how many times he visits the toilet. The protest by the Topalov team reflects the weakness of their playing position in the match.

The Russian Chess Federations demands:

The cancellation, as being unethical, of the decision of the Appeals Committee to allow the video footage of the players’ rest rooms, taken by the judges, to be made available to the members of the two players teams. This is because we believe such action is a breach of the privacy of the players, and also allows the opposing team to see how the player thinks and reacts to his opponent’s moves.

The cancellation of the decision of the Appeals Committee to close the individual toilets attached to the players’ rest rooms.

The replacement of the members of the Appeals Committee.

That the match Kramnik-Topalov be continued, with the score 3-1 in favour of Kramnik, under the exact conditions in which the match was started. The Russian Chess Federation hopes that the President of FIDE and the Organisation Committee will act wisely and not allow the Topalov team to terminate a match, which has begun badly for them.

The Russian Chess Federation

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2006, 08:35 PM
Also from chessbase:


Bulgarian Chess Federation Supports Veselin Topalov
30 September 2006

We have learnt that the Bulgarian Chess Federation is firmly supporting the demands of the FIDE world champion Veselin Topalov, "so the fight for the title could continue in normal conditions that exclude all doubts for getting additional help during the games.” This is part of the declaration published in the official website of the Bulgarian Chess Federation.

“We support the decisions of the Appeal Committee of the match and insist all parties to abide to them. All demands for change of members of the committee are an attempt to discredit the International Chess Federation and its president. The chess should be played on the stage, at the TV cameras and in front of the spectators," the declaration says.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2006, 09:06 PM
No game tonight according to Chessbase.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 09:12 PM
Some issues have been resolved but the key obstacle to continuation of the match remains. Unless Kramnik agrees to 3-2, the match will not continue

I do wonder about that.

I've been wondering whether the whole intention of the Topalov team is simply to temporarily derail the match so as to break up Kramnik's momentum and try to get him rattled, and whether they will eventually just concede more or less everything and just get on with it in the hope that the psychological balance has then changed.

Kramnik strikes me as being a very rational, objective, literal type sort in his attitude to all this. Topalov's team may be trying to exploit Kramnik's unwillingness to compromise where he doesn't feel he should have to.

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 09:20 PM
One idea I have seen proposed is that Game 5 is declared drawn and so both players split the point. The match then continues from Game 6 with Topalov as white.

Topalov then dodges a black game, which considering that all the negotiations have moved towards Kramnik's original position, might not be so bad. Also this still means that Topalov will have two white games in a row (Games 6 and 7).

Kramnik gets one game closer to the title and is still two games in front and has all the other conditions restored.

This might be a compromise situation that both players get some advantage out of.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2006, 09:33 PM
It could however be argued that Kramnik has done nothing wrong and that Game 5 should never have been started.

Garvinator
01-10-2006, 09:38 PM
It could however be argued that Kramnik has done nothing wrong and that Game 5 should never have been started.
Of course that can be argued and I am sure someone over there has argued this point ;) .

My idea was just a thought that allows both players to get out of this situation with some win win thoughts and allows the match to continue.

Rhubarb
01-10-2006, 09:44 PM
In the absence of any actual chess in this thread for several days, I thought I'd offer the following (but mods, please feel free to move to somewhere more appropriate if necessary), back in the days when Topalov's manager, IM Silvio Danailov, played all his games on the chess board. I threw the kitchen sink at him, Goldsmith style, but the bastard escaped with a draw.

Canfell - Danailov
Australian Masters 1991

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.a4 e6 7.Be2 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.f4 Qc7 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Kh1 Re8 12.Bf3 Rb8 13.Qe2 Na5 14.g4 Bf8 15.g5 Nd7 16.Bg2 b6 17.Rae1 Bb7 18.Qh5 Nc4 19.Bc1 g6 20.Qh3 Bg7 21.Rd1 Qc5 22.Nb3 Qb4 23.f5 Nc5 24.f6 Bf8 25.Rf4 Nxb3 26.Rd3 h5 27.Rh4 Nxc1 28.Rxh5 gxh5 29.Qxh5 Nxd3 30.g6 Nf2+ 31.Kg1 Nh3+ 32.Kh1 Nf2+ 33.Kg1 Nh3+ 34.Kh1 Nf2+ &#189;-&#189;

ER
01-10-2006, 10:09 PM
The damage has been done in Elista! If it wasn't so tragic, it would be comical!

TELEGRAPH UK
Grandmaster's lavatory defence just won't wash
MOSNEWS
Russian Chess Champion Accused of Cheating in Toilet
INDIATIMES
Will this prove to be chess' Waterloo?
KUTV
Chess Championship Halts Over Toilet Tiff
HERALD TRIBUNE
Toilet time stalemates chess match

And that's only a few of the headings I saw in the international press at work today.
Cheers and good luck!

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2006, 10:24 PM
Interesting game. It seems to me that after 27.Rh4 both sides have nothing better than the draw. Did you find anything for white that looks like it would have been more dangerous?

Basil
01-10-2006, 10:37 PM
Was 26. Rd3 necessary? Will the main plan of of 26. Rh4 straight away work anyway?

Rhubarb
01-10-2006, 10:46 PM
KB & HD,

From what I recall, we looked at it for a while after the game and concluded that the draw was the right result. Of course this was B.E. (Before Engines) and I haven't bothered to feed it in since.

I think we thought that 26.Rh4 actually comes to (almost) the same thing after 26...h5 27.Rxh5 gxh5 28.Qxh5 Ne5 29.Rd3 Nxd3 30.g6 Nf2+ etc. - the difference being that I've sacced one less piece! I wanted to play 26. Rd3 a tempo - and yes I'm sure in the back of my mind there was the incredibly optimistic hope that he'd miss the threat of 27.Qxh7+. :D

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2006, 11:46 PM
Susan polgar on her Blog quotes the following from Chessbase:

Joan Thornton, Melbourne, Australia wrote to ChessBase

This is the saddest day for chess since Fischer walked out in the 1972 WCC match. Both players should have their heads banged together. Ban them both from all pro events for a year. Instead, have a match between Susan Polgar and Magnus Carlsen.
and replies:

No, I don't think we should ban either player. There are enough turmoil in chess. No need create more. However, playing a match against Magnus is an interesting idea :)


The Thornton quote looks a lot like comments made by qpawn earlier in this thread in post http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=124966&postcount=116

I wonder where Chessbase got Joan from. :doh:

Basil
01-10-2006, 11:56 PM
I wonder where Chessbase got Joan from. :doh:
:eek:

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 02:02 AM
It looks like Kramnik is just going to refuse to budge significantly and FIDE will be unable to forfeit him either game 5 or the match without being sued to blazes for breach of contract, so at some point Topalov will have to get over it and play or he could forfeit the match and FIDE might have to crown Kramnik. :eek:

The latest I have seen from chessbase is consitent with Michael's post above - Topalov is threatening to go home if he doesn't get his forfeit, while Kramnik is refusing to forfeit the game.

A rich little strategic/tactical struggle this is. :lol:

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 02:08 AM
Bessel Kok comments (http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3387)

If this is the sham FIDE is going to deliver I find myself in total agreement with point 6:


Proceed as quickly as possible with the outsourcing of all top-level chess competitions to a separate company manage by professional organisers.

I also totally agree with the rest.

MichaelBaron
02-10-2006, 02:51 AM
The damage has been done in Elista! If it wasn't so tragic, it would be comical!

TELEGRAPH UK
Grandmaster's lavatory defence just won't wash
MOSNEWS
Russian Chess Champion Accused of Cheating in Toilet
INDIATIMES
Will this prove to be chess' Waterloo?
KUTV
Chess Championship Halts Over Toilet Tiff
HERALD TRIBUNE
Toilet time stalemates chess match

And that's only a few of the headings I saw in the international press at work today.
Cheers and good luck!

Thats right, Topalov, Kramnik and Fide are all becoming laughing stock.

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 04:02 AM
Topalov's team's argument is that the forfeit having been awarded has to stand (assuming he does not agree otherwise). I am unsure of who exactly ruled Kramnik to have forfeited - was it Gijssen or the Appeals Committee? If the latter, he has a point since 3.17 states that the decision of the appeals committee is final. However since the conditions under which the game was forfeited breached the match conditions, Kramnik has a point that he could not have been correctly made to play game 5 anyway.

I suppose they could always get around it by declaring that the forfeit stands but that Kramnik is awarded a point in compensation for having been wrongly forfeited, and continue at 4-2.

EZBeet
02-10-2006, 08:19 AM
Well , looks like the match is back on.

Kramnik in a generous mood it seems, he probably knows by now that Topalov will not be able to beat him over the board anyway.

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 10:55 AM
So after all is said and done, after fide acknowledges that decisions have been incorrectly made, Kirsan makes the final decision in favour of Topalov, why arent I surprised.

So the bottom line is, what happened to all that negotiation regarding the match score? Doesnt seem like much real negotiation at all. Topalov has given up nothing.

MichaelBaron
02-10-2006, 10:55 AM
Lets see what happens if Topalov wins game 6...:hmm:
Kramnik's generosity may disappear. Anyway, there is now no way for both of them to bail out of the match

Vlad
02-10-2006, 11:17 AM
Kramnik never agreed, in fact many people believe he is about to leave. The only hope for him to stay is that two friends Svidler and Bareev have just arrived to support Vladimir.

EZBeet
02-10-2006, 11:22 AM
hmmm, are you certain he never agreed?

If I was Kramnik I don't think I would. Common sense dictates the point was awarded erroneously. I do have confidence in Kramniks ability to win the match anyway. Perhaps he has as much faith in himself?

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 11:39 AM
ACP Statement on Topalov-Kramnik Unification Match crisis

The situation arisen in the Topalov-Kramnik Unification Match brings a lot of damage to the image of chess. The Association of Chess Professionals will thoroughly analyse all the facts and express our opinion on the whole matter soon, but even right now we want to clearly stand that we find the letter written by Silvio Danailov, Manager to Veselin Topalov, on the 28th of September 2006 disgraceful. Especially a sentence "If the match were to continue, the World Champion would refrain from shaking hands with Mr. Kramnik before the games" is unacceptable. It is abusive, contradictive with the FIDE motto "Gens una sumus", moreover, Mr Danailov not only accussed Mr Kramnik of cheating, without showing any serious evidence, but already found him guilty, prior to any investigation.

As the purpose of the ACP, as described by the Article 2 of the ACP Statutes, is "the protection of professional chess players' rights, the practice and promotion of chess worldwide", we strongly protest against behaviour of Mr Silvio Danailov, Manager to Veselin Topalov, and expect him to officially apologise to Mr Kramnik. Otherwise, we believe that the case should be carefully investigated by the FIDE Ethics Commission and proper measures taken to avoid such situations in the future.

Best regards
ACP Board
1st of October 2006

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 11:40 AM
it is a shame that all this now counts for absolutely zero due to the decision of the fide president to unilaterally make the match score 3:2 and start from Game 6.

Desmond
02-10-2006, 11:57 AM
It looks like Kramnik is just going to refuse to budge significantly and FIDE will be unable to forfeit him either game 5 or the match without being sued to blazes for breach of contract, so at some point Topalov will have to get over it and play or he could forfeit the match and FIDE might have to crown Kramnik. :eek:Perhaps a double-forfeit of the match, leaving the title vacant is in order :hmm:

Vlad
02-10-2006, 12:07 PM
One of the reasons for 3:2 was the fact that apparently Kramnik's team forgot to lodge an official complaint regarding the result in the 5-th game. By tournament rules it has to be done during the first two hours after the game finished. Now Illumzinov claims that lawyers advised him that he would loose in the court if he were to amend the result to 3:1.

Garrett
02-10-2006, 12:54 PM
Has Kramnik agreed to play from 3-2 ?

I think it would be a bad move to do so.

If the match does not proceed then Kramnik is in a stronger position then before. He still won't be world champ as far as FIDE is concerned but will be champion as far as most of the rest of the chess players in the world are concerned (+2 after 4 games against strongest challenger) and can pick and choose whether he plays in the stupid tournament next year.

eclectic
02-10-2006, 12:59 PM
My Kramnik Topalov match compromise.
Eliminate tie breaks make it 16 games
Kramnik takes match if score tied.
Resume at Game 5 with score 3-1
Forfeit transferred to game 16.
Topalov may choose to use it then.
Allow loser access to 2007 event.

antichrist
02-10-2006, 01:15 PM
I believe there was a similar allegation against a Sydney player cheating whilst out in the toilets a few decades ago??

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 01:42 PM
One of the reasons for 3:2 was the fact that apparently Kramnik's team forgot to lodge an official complaint regarding the result in the 5-th game. By tournament rules it has to be done during the first two hours after the game finished. Now Illumzinov claims that lawyers advised him that he would loose in the court if he were to amend the result to 3:1.

Oh dear. That would be most unfortunate if Kramnik's team had indeed failed to complete that technicality. Topalov's team's protest after round 4 was apparently also not filed in time and was erroneously considered acceptable by the appeal committee, but as that protest has now been effectively overturned that point is now moot.

Could be that Kramnik has to take his medicine and get on with it at 3-2 or else go home and forfeit.

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 01:51 PM
I still think it could be argued that since the Appeals Committee had no authority to change the playing conditions after the first game, then the starting of game 5 under differnt playing conditions by the arbiter was incorrect.
As such Kramnik cannot lose a game that was illegally started and the FIDE President could/should rule that way.

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 03:16 PM
Latest info on Susan Polgars Blog states:

The rumor from Elista is Kramnik has brought in the big guns: super GM Svidler and Bareev. No one seems to know their official capacity but I assume to help him with his preparation. Does that mean that we will have game 6 tomorrow? I certainly hope so! I think most of us have had enough of this mess and we are looking forward to some real fighting chess.

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 03:19 PM
I think the situation now is very simple. If Kramnik fronts up and plays Game 6, all the protesting stops.

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 03:20 PM
I still think it could be argued that since the Appeals Committee had no authority to change the playing conditions after the first game, then the starting of game 5 under differnt playing conditions by the arbiter was incorrect.

All of this is clearly true but it looks like if Kramnik did not lodge a timely formal appeal against the incorrectly started game then he has no leg to stand on over it.

I hope there is more to it than that because if that is the way that it is and Kramnik does vacate the scene I may have to regard him as having forfeited the match.

Would be interesting to see what Denis makes of the issue - is FIDE's legal advice that the score now stands at 3-2 likely to be correct?

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 03:24 PM
All of this is clearly true but it looks like if Kramnik did not lodge a timely formal appeal against the incorrectly started game then he has no leg to stand on over it.But why would he appeal to what he deemed a biased Appeals Committee.
Also with regards changes to the Match conditions should he even have to appeal.
Could he not simply expect the FIDE President to uphold the Match Conditions without him having to appeal.

eclectic
02-10-2006, 03:34 PM
Should we use a computer analogy here?

If we need to fix errors in Windows XP we have the option of choosing one of a number of "restore points".

Kramnik wants the roll back to occur to a "restore point" before game 5.

In that case his failure to lodge a protest after game 5 would be moot.

Does that make sense?

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 03:35 PM
From Mig on Chessninja:

Quoth Kasparov: "The first point by a Bulgarian in the match was scored by Danailov!" His next New In Chess article is a scorcher...

Basil
02-10-2006, 03:35 PM
So the bottom line is, what happened to all that negotiation regarding the match score? Doesnt seem like much real negotiation at all. Topalov has given up nothing.
Garvin, meboy ... in this crazy little world, we sometimes have to give up everything to win the house! And sometimes those who keep everything, have nothing :)

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 03:36 PM
Has Kramnik agreed to play from 3-2 ?

I think it would be a bad move to do so.

If the match does not proceed then Kramnik is in a stronger position then before. He still won't be world champ as far as FIDE is concerned but will be champion as far as most of the rest of the chess players in the world are concerned (+2 after 4 games against strongest challenger) and can pick and choose whether he plays in the stupid tournament next year.
Hello George,

Read the following with a caveat, my instincts are telling me that I think there has been a change of the regulations to allow the winner of the current match to participate, but I cant find anywhere that says it so far.

I assume you are referring to the world championship tournament between eight players next year.

Kramnik has no path to the world championship tournament. If Topalov loses, he is still already qualified for the WCT.

For the eight players in the wct, four have already qualified due to their top four placings in San Luis tournament (Topalov, Anand, Svidler and Morozevich).

The other four placings come from candidate matches (maybe a candidates tournament) involving the following players:

Levon Aronian
Peter Leko
Ruslan Ponomariov
Boris Gelfand
Etienne Bacrot
Alexander Grischuk
Judith Polgar
Alexei Shirov
Michael Adams
Evgeny Bareev
Vladimir Malakhov
Gata Kamsky
Rustam Kasimjanov
Sergei Rublevsky
Mikhail Gurevich
Magnus Carlsen

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 03:44 PM
I do wonder what Geurt Gijssen's next chesscafe article will be about ;)

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 03:44 PM
Kramnik has no path to the world championship tournament. If Topalov loses, he is still already qualified for the WCT.

For the eight players in the wct, four have already qualified due to their top four placings in San Luis tournament (Topalov, Anand, Svidler and Morozevich).

That arrangement came prior to the agreement to play this match and at a time when it was assumed Kramnik would not compete in the cycle.

As I understand it if Kramnik wins the match, Topalov is removed from the cycle and Kramnik takes his place, because there is no room for Topalov.

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 03:47 PM
Kramnik has no path to the world championship tournament. If Topalov loses, he is still already qualified for the WCT.That is incorrect.
If Topalov loses he is replaced in that event by Kramnik.

Garvinator
02-10-2006, 03:57 PM
To both Kevin and Bill, I did say caveat ;)

Garrett
02-10-2006, 04:36 PM
If Kramnik refuses to play from a 3-2 scoreline (which I expect) then I would still consider him to be world champion, with an even stronger case then before (+2 versus strongest challenger).

I know Kirsan will say otherwise but I doubt even his wife listens to him anymore.

antichrist
02-10-2006, 05:23 PM
But was a Sydney player facing a similar allegation in the seventies?

MichaelBaron
02-10-2006, 06:22 PM
So are they playing tonight or not?:hmm:

Basil
02-10-2006, 06:27 PM
So are they playing tonight or not?:hmm:
Mike, I 'm not even sure they know.

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 06:28 PM
I doubt we will actually know until the scheduled start time in around 2.5 hours.

eclectic
02-10-2006, 08:50 PM
It is on.
Kramnik is playing under protest.

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2006, 09:11 PM
Official statement and protest on the decision made by FIDE

To FIDE President H.E. Kirsan Iljumshinov
To the WCC Appeals Committee

On 2 October 2006 my manager received the following decision from FIDE:

“Tomorrow, 2 October 2006, at 15.00, the 6th Game of the World Chess Championship Match a Topalov-Kramnik with the score 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, will take place.”

Based on this decision I make the following statement:

I inform that I am ready to proceed playing the match by reserving all my rights. My further participation will be subject to the condition to clarify my rights regarding game five at later stage.

I do not agree with the decision made by FIDE and I formally protest against it. The decisions made on my requests, especially the resignation of the Appeals Committee, opening the toilets to the restrooms again, are chrystal clear admissions of FIDE of having taken a false decision. Logically FIDE admits herewith that it was a mistake to start game five by violating the rules and regulations of the competition and by changing the agreed playing rules and conditions during the match without my approval.

I deeply regret the unsportsmanlike and unequaled behaviour of my opponent whom FIDE donated a victory outside of the board by using dirty tricks.

High level functionaries inside FIDE once again were making the professional part of the chess world a disgraceful playground of their own interests. I strongly believe and hope that the course of these events made it obvious to everyone that drastic changes with regard to the professional management structures inside FIDE are evident.

By deciding just a couple of hours ago I had to assess between my personal interests and the interests of the entire chess world. It is very difficult to play under these circumstances. But I came to the conclusion to proceed under protest because I do not want to disappoint the overwhelming majority of the chess fans which are hoping for the unification since so many years.

I also had in mind the people of Kalmykia which are doing their utmost to organize this match on the highest level possible.

Last but not least I would like to thank very much for all the support I experienced during these days.

Elista, 2 October 2006
Vladimir Kramnik
Classical World Chess Champion

Axiom
02-10-2006, 09:30 PM
Official statement and protest on the decision made by FIDE
'chrystal'clear ? is it fide corruption, or something else?
i notice vlad does not give any explanaton of his hyper frequent toilet visits.

Desmond
02-10-2006, 09:32 PM
'chrystal'clear ? is it fide corruption, or something else?
i notice vlad does not give any explanaton of his hyper frequent toilet visits.
Curry?

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2006, 09:39 PM
Well we have moves coming out of the screen at last!

I am pleasantly but not very surprised that the match is back underway. As I suggested before Kramnik is a very rational, literal, rules-minded sort of character and would probably realise that his failure to submit an appeal had, in a strictly legal sense, damaged his rights although the moral high ground is very much his.

It's actually hard to concentrate on there actually being a game of chess going on after all that has happened! If Kramnik can play a good game with black under this pressure I will be most impressed.

I actually think Kirsan has handled this situation quite well, apart from the odd injudicious statement here and there. Kramnik is to be praised for resuming the match. As for Topalov, desperate times, desperate measures (etc). The geese from the appeals committee, however, should be tarred and feathered and not seen officiating in a major event for a very long time (I mean, seriously, whose idea was it to put Azmai on an appeals committee?)

Axiom
02-10-2006, 09:54 PM
Curry?i give kram curry for not then at least state that it was curry!

but,yes i too am happy to see resumption, but the source of the dispute,yet to be explained...curiously enough.

EZBeet
03-10-2006, 12:30 PM
i notice vlad does not give any explanaton of his hyper frequent toilet visits.

I thought the matter had been clarified.

Kramnik can use the rest area provided to the players as much as he wants to. Once there he has a tendency to pace up and down while he is thinking. The door to the bathroom area he likes to have open which gives him more room for this pacing.

The Bulgarian team counted every time he walked in and out of the bathroom as a separate 'visit'.

Bill Gletsos
03-10-2006, 01:54 PM
Game 7 is tomorrow night with Topalov again having white.

Igor_Goldenberg
03-10-2006, 02:08 PM
To have a moral claim for a crown topalov has to win at least +2. But perhaps he would not understand what it means.

Kevin Bonham
03-10-2006, 03:23 PM
So the schedule will presumably now be

Game 7 4 Oct T-K
Game 8 5 Oct K-T
Game 9 7 Oct T-K
Game 10 8 Oct K-T
Game 11 10 Oct T-K
Game 12 11 Oct K-T
playoff 13 Oct.

I'm assuming Kramnik's lingering protest over game 5 won't come into play again during the match, ie he will play out the match and it will be resolved after. It will only matter if the match is tied and Topalov wins the playoff, or Topalov wins 7-5 including the forfeit.

Bill Gletsos
03-10-2006, 05:23 PM
No, there is an additional rest day after game 11.
There is no rest day between round 12 and the tiebreaks.

Game 11 10 Oct T-K
Game 12 12 Oct K-T
playoff 13 Oct.