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shaun
07-03-2006, 09:28 PM
Imagine you had to market a chess tournament that was being run at the same time (but in a different location) with a more established and succesful tournament.
How would you go about it?
Would you (a) promote the strengths of your own event, making no reference to the competition (b) put a negative focus on the other event, barely mentioning your own event or (c) some other approach

And which of (a) or (b) would you regard as better for Australian chess?

WhiteElephant
07-03-2006, 09:37 PM
Imagine you had to market a chess tournament that was being run at the same time (but in a different location) with a more established and succesful tournament.
How would you go about it?
Would you (a) promote the strengths of your own event, making no reference to the competition (b) put a negative focus on the other event, barely mentioning your own event or (c) some other approach

And which of (a) or (b) would you regard as better for Australian chess?

Definitely not (b), rubbishing the competition never works.

I think you'd have to try to establish a niche for your event and base your marketing around that. I am assuming everyone is aware that the other event is on so you can't pretend it doesn't exist. But maybe you can capture a part of their market. For example, gear your event towards juniors, or a slower or faster time control, or the location, etc etc.

Reminds me of the campaign by Avis in the rental car market in the US. Everyone knew they were way behind Hertz so their slogan was 'We're number 2 so we try harder.' They made up heaps of market share on the basis of that campaign.

Spiny Norman
07-03-2006, 10:35 PM
Imagine you had to market a chess tournament that was being run at the same time (but in a different location) with a more established and succesful tournament.
What sort of locations are we talking about Shaun? For example, Melbourne and Sydney, or two adjacent suburbs in the same capital?

Brian_Jones
08-03-2006, 06:53 AM
I think somebody is trying to pinch players from the Doeberl Cup again!?

shaun
08-03-2006, 09:38 AM
I think somebody is trying to pinch players from the Doeberl Cup again!?

No, just a simple question about whether succes is better achieved by buiding yourself up, or by tearing others down.

PHAT
08-03-2006, 10:08 AM
There is a question that needs to beasked before this quetsion.

"Should we compete?"

I say no, and thus your question, Shaun, is not necessary.

We should should not compete for two reasons.

1. Competing only divides a pie of fixed size. I believe it is better to cooperate and make the pie bigger.

2. Competing leads to a race to the bottom or to the best compromise between what could be different products. I believe it is better to cooperate and make two different types of pies.


Having said all that: if you want to compete, CRUSH the other event. Sign-up all the top names, organise a bus from every capital, ring the other organisers and tell them they might as well cancel their event, spread rumours that their prizemoney is to be dropped to a fraction of yours.

Brian_Jones
08-03-2006, 10:15 AM
Canberra or Brisbane for Easter?

To our friends in Sydney,

Hi,

The Chess Association of Queensland is holding the Qld Open from Sat 15 April to Mon 17 April, this event is a class two Australian Grand Prix Event.

You may well say so !! why tell me?

Well it is like this,

1 Our event cannot match the Mecca event in Canberra held over Easter, however your odds at gaining Grand Prix Points are better in Brisbane then Canberra as all the top guns go to Canberra.

2. Can you trust the weather in Canberra? The answer is no as it can be very cold or too hot. Brisbane is such a great place with great weather. The people are nice too.

3. As you poor guys put up with all that fast pace in Sydney, you deserve a break, so why not come to Brisbane and play Chess over Easter in The Qld Open and have a great relaxing time.

4. The Australian way is to help the under Dog, and as an Easter event we are the under Dog that will stand up and have a go, be a devil and come to Brisbane and support us.

5. Attached is an entry form, if you are not going to use it then please pass it on as other NSW members, as they may like a trip north over Easter.

Thank You,

Bill Powell
CAQ Publicity Officer.

arosar
08-03-2006, 10:28 AM
Brian -

Can you cite exactly where the above appears? Thanks.

AR

Ian Rout
08-03-2006, 11:09 AM
Having said all that: if you want to compete, CRUSH the other event. Sign-up all the top names, organise a bus from every capital, ring the other organisers and tell them they might as well cancel their event, spread rumours that their prizemoney is to be dropped to a fraction of yours.
Some of this can be expensive, and it can leave you looking silly if you make a big push and it fails. Moreover being so blatant may provoke retaliation of some sort.

A more low-key approach is possible, if you're not desperate for immediate results. Without a song and dance you can, by merely pulling some players away from the other tournament, make it less viable. If it works the other tournament will shut up shop, leaving the field clear for you; if it doesn't you explain that your event was only ever intended for those who weren't planning to go to the other event anyway and wasn't meant as competition. You can't lose.

The risk though is that some other tournament, better geared to compete, may then appear and put yours out of business.

Brian_Jones
08-03-2006, 11:19 AM
It is an email sent to selected NSWCA Councillors and others. Their mailing list looks pretty random to me!

PHAT
08-03-2006, 11:22 AM
Some of this can be expensive, and it can leave you looking silly if you make a big push and it fails. Moreover being so blatant may provoke retaliation of some sort.

Agreed, and it is consistant with my position that in competition, like war, there are only degrees of losing.

shaun
08-03-2006, 11:32 AM
I'm shocked that such a marketing approach would be approved by the CAQ, so soon after the Australian Championship and Junior in Brisbane was so strongly supported by players from other states (including the ACT).

WhiteElephant
08-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Hmmm...I thought this was a genuine hypothetical and tried to answer the question honestly but it seems to be some sort of political beat up. If there's an agenda, just get it out in the open up front.

WhiteElephant
08-03-2006, 12:13 PM
Agreed, and it is consistant with my position that in competition, like war, there are only degrees of losing.

Are you saying 2 companies can't co-exist in one industry, both with a decent market share, both chugging along happily and turning over a profit?

Rincewind
08-03-2006, 12:17 PM
Are you saying 2 companies can't co-exist in one industry, both with a decent market share, both chugging along happily and turning over a profit?

I think they can and in general terms, collusion and price-fixing both help to this end.

PHAT
08-03-2006, 12:42 PM
Are you saying 2 companies can't co-exist in one industry, both with a decent market share, both chugging along happily and turning over a profit?

Economists, managers, CEOs, and other charlatans have a acute physics envy. They talk of momentum, cycles, steady state et cetera. They attempt to use mathematics, and algorithms with 12, 20, 100 variables with abitary coefficients. (Pathetics tossers!) So, let me tickle their fancy fantasies:

The Pauli exclusion principle. :cool:

pax
08-03-2006, 01:09 PM
There is a question that needs to beasked before this quetsion.

"Should we compete?"

I say no, and thus your question, Shaun, is not necessary.


Bollocks. Easter is the longest weekend of the year. Would you seriously tell WA, or SA or QLD that they shouldn't make use of the longest weekend of the year if they so choose? I'm not talking about some high profile big-prize event, but just an ordinary weekender for muggins like you and me that either choose not to, or are unable to travel to Canberra.

If people go to the Doeberl, it is because they want to be part of Australia's number one weekender. They are pretty unlikely to be dissuaded by a low class, low prizemoney event somewhere else.

If we were talking about high profile, high prizemoney competition, then I would agree with you that it is a bit suicidal.

Garvinator
08-03-2006, 01:52 PM
Definitely not (b), rubbishing the competition never works.
disagree. It is how our politicians all get elected;)

Garvinator
08-03-2006, 01:56 PM
I'm shocked that such a marketing approach would be approved by the CAQ, so soon after the Australian Championship and Junior in Brisbane was so strongly supported by players from other states (including the ACT).
I have sent Shaun a pm and he has replied to it. Basically I wasnt aware of the email being sent out until I received it in the general email stream like everyone else.

jase
08-03-2006, 02:21 PM
Basically I wasnt aware of the email being sent out until I received it in the general email stream like everyone else.

And I think Shaun received this email also. Therefore when Brian wondered aloud whether this
Imagine you had to market a chess tournament that was being run at the same time (but in a different location) with a more established and succesful tournament. related to the Doeberl Cup, and Shaun replied
No, just a simple question about whether succes is better achieved by buiding yourself up, or by tearing others down. I think he was lying to us. :hmm:
Not that I agree with points 2 and 4 of Bill Powell's email ...

Libby
08-03-2006, 03:00 PM
Not that I agree with points 2 and 4 of Bill Powell's email ...

Agreed - thought they were on the dodgy side - coming from someone in an official capacity :mad:

More like BB banter than an appropriate way to promote an event.

Besides which, our weather can be pretty spectacular at that time of year. It's probably one of the better times to visit as we tend to get quite crisp overnight temps but sunny, mild days.

jenni
08-03-2006, 03:21 PM
and the spectacular colours as the leaves change to reds and yellows....

arosar
08-03-2006, 03:28 PM
Canberra is definitely very nice this time of year. All the Birkenstocked baby boomers come out to play in Manuka with plenty of money to burn.

AR

eclectic
08-03-2006, 03:38 PM
let's say we prioritise any events held over easter and make them indicate what is their player capacity

eg canberra first

once it is filled to capacity with PREPAID entries then leave is then given for some other event to open its books for entries


you can't be accused of taking players away from an event if that event can't accept any more ...

PHAT
08-03-2006, 04:20 PM
Bollocks. Easter is the longest weekend of the year. Would you seriously tell WA, or SA or QLD that they shouldn't make use of the longest weekend of the year if they so choose? I'm not talking about some high profile big-prize event, but just an ordinary weekender for muggins like you and me that either choose not to, or are unable to travel to Canberra.

If people go to the Doeberl, it is because they want to be part of Australia's number one weekender. They are pretty unlikely to be dissuaded by a low class, low prizemoney event somewhere else.

If we were talking about high profile, high prizemoney competition, then I would agree with you that it is a bit suicidal.

News flash: Sweeney agrees fully with PAX.

I think the nature of the thread question is, should events compete. Since what you describe are events that are seperated by both distance and play level, I do not see them as in the same market.

However, I think that QLDs bid for NSW players to go north is being sold a little too agressively.

shaun
08-03-2006, 05:24 PM
And I think Shaun received this email also. Therefore when Brian wondered aloud whether this related to the Doeberl Cup, and Shaun replied [snip] I think he was lying to us. :hmm:
Not that I agree with points 2 and 4 of Bill Powell's email ...

Lying is such an ugly word. In this case I prefer "disengenuous", especially as Brian was the person who alerted me to the CAQ press release in the first case. Brian clearly knew the answer to his question before it was asked, but asked anyway.
It would have certainly have been honest of me to phrase it in terms of "Bill Powell has never got over his Doeberl Cup fixation and is once again trying to run the tournament down, discuss", but that is not the debate I was looking for. To phrase it in that way would result in a Doeberl v SEC style argument when these have been done to death.
Instead the point I did really want to get discussed is about what is good (in a moral sense) marketing, especially in regards to Australian chess. And this is why I replied to Brian the way I did.

WhiteElephant
08-03-2006, 05:30 PM
disagree. It is how our politicians all get elected;)

If they were elected based on their balance sheet they'd have no hope. As it is, voters tick a random box based on little or no information, and whoever gets elected pretty much kicks them in the balls.

pax
08-03-2006, 05:34 PM
News flash: Sweeney agrees fully with PAX.


Gee, and I had my flameproof undies on and everything!



However, I think that QLDs bid for NSW players to go north is being sold a little too agressively.

I agree. It's a bit underhanded to go around emailing (spamming??) people individually to say "don't go THERE, WE'RE much better".. That said, the tone of the email was fairly lighthearted.

ursogr8
08-03-2006, 05:44 PM
Lying is such an ugly word. In this case I prefer "disengenuous", especially as Brian was the person who alerted me to the CAQ press release in the first case. Brian clearly knew the answer to his question before it was asked, but asked anyway.
It would have certainly have been honest of me to phrase it in terms of "Bill Powell has never got over his Doeberl Cup fixation and is once again trying to run the tournament down, discuss", but that is not the debate I was looking for. To phrase it in that way would result in a Doeberl v SEC style argument when these have been done to death.
Instead the point I did really want to get discussed is about what is good (in a moral sense) marketing, especially in regards to Australian chess. And this is why I replied to Brian the way I did.

The Japanese are reputed to spend more time on defining the question for (business) decisions than the Americans. I have seen quoted figues of 50% of (Japanese) resource-effort devoted to defining the question, versus 10% for Americans.

(Probably just high level generalisation anyway). But it does further justify your self-professed disengenuous posts. ;)

Ok. Now to my main point. (Incidentally can we call the QLD action ambush-marketing). What is the down-side to Doeberl if the ambush-marketing is partly successful?
a) A serious downside?
b) A small down-scale (of finance) with no real loss of top-level players?
c) Fewer juniors at Doeberl?
d) Other?

It is hard to answer your first-post question without knowledge of what you fear are the repercussions on Doeberl.

Or, is your question really about the style of the invitation, as your post #1 suggests?

regards
starter

eclectic
08-03-2006, 05:57 PM
i wonder if you know who of sydney easter cup infamy? is guesting this thread and laughing his head off?

:D
:P
:rolleyes:

shaun
08-03-2006, 06:00 PM
The Japanese are reputed to spend more time on defining the question for (business) decisions than the Americans. I have seem quoted figues of 50% of (Japanes) resource-effort devoted to defining the question, versus 10% for Americans.

(Probably just high level generalisation anyway). But it does further justify your self-professed disengenuous posts. ;)

Ok. Now to my main point. (Incidentally can we call the QLD action ambush-marketing). What is the down-side to Doeberl if the ambush-marketing is partly successful?
a) A serious downside?
b) A small down-scale (of finance) with no real loss of top-level players?
c) Fewer juniors at Doeberl?
d) Other?

It is hard to answer your first-post question without knowledge of what you fear are the repercussions on Doeberl.

Or, is your question really about the style of the invitation, as your post #1 suggests?

regards
starter

In terms of the downside to the Doeberl (A) is definetely the answer. The constant battle the tournament has since the death of Eric Doeberl is that one bad year will wipe us out. Australian chess history have a number of examples of succesful events having a bad year and being forced to cut back on prizes for the next, just to balance the books. From there it is a downward spiral, as smaller prizes mean smaller fields, resulting in further losses. So the year after year "whining" coming from the Doeberl Cup committee (who normally don't post here but are happy for me to do so on behalf of the tournament), is motivated by this fact.
On to your other point(s). I don't think the CAQ marketing effort can be considered ambush marketing in the normal sense. If the marketing for the Queensland tournament consisted simply of telling everyone how good it was and why they should play, with no reference to any other event, then I certainly wouldn't complain about the approach chosen, although the effect on the Doeberl field would still concern me.
But the method they have chosen is not to talk up their event, but to try an run down another event. And for everyone who wonders why Australian chess fails to grasp opportunities to improve, I think this an example of why. But I would like to hear what others think on this (general) issue, and that is why I framed the initial discussion in the way that I did.

arosar
08-03-2006, 06:18 PM
I want to know how the CAQ PR man obtained the email addies of recipients? Can someone confirm this for me quickly?

Thanks,

AR

ursogr8
08-03-2006, 07:09 PM
In terms of the downside to the Doeberl (A) is definetely the answer. The constant battle the tournament has since the death of Eric Doeberl is that one bad year will wipe us out. Australian chess history have a number of examples of succesful events having a bad year and being forced to cut back on prizes for the next, just to balance the books. From there it is a downward spiral, as smaller prizes mean smaller fields, resulting in further losses. So the year after year "whining" coming from the Doeberl Cup committee (who normally don't post here but are happy for me to do so on behalf of the tournament), is motivated by this fact.
On to your other point(s). I don't think the CAQ marketing effort can be considered ambush marketing in the normal sense. If the marketing for the Queensland tournament consisted simply of telling everyone how good it was and why they should play, with no reference to any other event, then I certainly wouldn't complain about the approach chosen, although the effect on the Doeberl field would still concern me.
But the method they have chosen is not to talk up their event, but to try an run down another event. And for everyone who wonders why Australian chess fails to grasp opportunities to improve, I think this an example of why. But I would like to hear what others think on this (general) issue, and that is why I framed the initial discussion in the way that I did.


Thanks for the response Shaun.

I am reading your reponse to answer my two questions
i) is it serious challenge?.... Yes.
ii) are you concerned by their style...Yes

Let me comment on style of (chess) marketing campaigns.
1 We wouldn't knowingly denigrate, nor copy.
2 We get cheesed off when others do.
3 Rather than legislate to protect what we have, we usually just resolve to try harder.
But we (BHCC and WHJC) are rather amateurish, compared to the local full-time chess commercials.

regards
starter

eclectic
08-03-2006, 07:17 PM
Thanks for the response Shaun.

I am reading your reponse to answer my two questions
i) is it serious challenge?.... Yes.
ii) are you concerned by their style...Yes

Let me comment on style of (chess) marketing campaigns.
1 We wouldn't knowingly denigrate, nor copy.
2 We get cheesed off when others do.
3 Rather than legislate to protect what we have, we usually just resolve to try harder.
But we (BHCC and WHJC) are rather amateurish, compared to the local full-time chess commercials.

regards
starter

but starter ...

we down mexico way have long been battle hardened by the

CV-CG clash

:cool:

Garvinator
08-03-2006, 09:21 PM
Australian chess history have a number of examples of succesful events having a bad year and being forced to cut back on prizes for the next, just to balance the books. From there it is a downward spiral, as smaller prizes mean smaller fields, resulting in further losses.
Does the Caloundra tournament sound familiar to anyone:hmm:

eclectic
08-03-2006, 09:24 PM
Does the Caloundra tournament sound familiar to anyone:hmm:

where's caloundra?

:whistle:
;)

Brian_Jones
09-03-2006, 08:05 AM
I want to know how the CAQ PR man obtained the email addies of recipients? Can someone confirm this for me quickly?

Thanks,

AR

They have an out-of-date mailing list that was created in the days of the Coolum Open (1990's). The current email was sent to all the usual suspects that have been involved with chess admin for a decade or more. It was amateurish and lacked volume and freshness. They would do better to:

1. Write something about the benefits of the Queensland Open
2. Use the Sweeney/Saint approach to email addresses!

arosar
09-03-2006, 09:38 AM
2. Use the Sweeney/Saint approach to email addresses!

Which is?

AR

PHAT
09-03-2006, 09:58 AM
Which is?

ARI email you.

arosar
09-03-2006, 10:23 AM
I thought he meant you just go and steal people's email addies without permission and spamming them. Which, as you should know, is illegal in this country. Is that what you did?

AR

PHAT
09-03-2006, 10:43 AM
Is that what you did?

No. Info is collected so that all chess officials and commercial interests can be found in one neat document, arranged in cross referenced group. Ordinary players emails ARE NOT collected or listed.

arosar
15-03-2006, 03:08 PM
Peter Hanna was spotted last Sunday at the COS. He and Bill Powell are featured here: http://closetgrandmaster.blogspot.com/2006/03/doeberl-cup-2006.html

See comments section.

AR

PHAT
15-03-2006, 04:23 PM
May I make a suggestion that the inhabitants of this BB make a pact to go to Doeberl and not else where. We will certainly have a BB dinner as a social. Furthermore, if you know someone who would like to go but travel is a problem, offer a lift.

Lucena
15-03-2006, 07:27 PM
May I make a suggestion that the inhabitants of this BB make a pact to go to Doeberl and not else where. We will certainly have a BB dinner as a social. Furthermore, if you know someone who would like to go but travel is a problem, offer a lift.

The Doeberl wins hands down (it's closer, too). I can't think of anyone south of Tweed Heads that would go to the Queensland tournament instead of Doeberl. What will you be doing, Garvin?

four four two
15-03-2006, 08:18 PM
He will be the arbiter for the qld comp,what did you think he was going to be doing?:hmm:

PHAT
15-03-2006, 08:23 PM
He will be the arbiter for the qld comp,what did you think he was going to be doing?:hmm:

I think that if you have to arbit a tournament to pay your bills, you need to get a real job.

DoroPhil
15-03-2006, 09:27 PM
I think that if you have to arbit a tournament to pay your bills, you need to get a real job.

How dare you?

How dare you attack the poor defenceless ggrayggray, you mean and nasty so-and-so?

Garvinator
16-03-2006, 12:50 AM
How dare you?

How dare you attack the poor defenceless ggrayggray, you mean and nasty so-and-so?
now i have dorophil defending me, geez i must be going bad:uhoh:

Garvinator
16-03-2006, 12:51 AM
The Doeberl wins hands down (it's closer, too). I can't think of anyone south of Tweed Heads that would go to the Queensland tournament instead of Doeberl. What will you be doing, Garvin?
Yes, I will be arbiter at the qld open. The Doeberl organisers are well aware of my opinion about Doeberl vs any other tournament and I think I made them clear in the closet grandmaster's article.

Lucena
16-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Yes, I will be arbiter at the qld open. The Doeberl organisers are well aware of my opinion about Doeberl vs any other tournament and I think I made them clear in the closet grandmaster's article.

Ok sorry Garvin I didn't realise you were going to be DOP :oops:, I was just wondering what you would do as a Queenslander. I guess I could have found out you were involved with the tournament if I had read the CAQ tournament ad (which had you as the email contact)

Garvinator
16-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Ok sorry Garvin I didn't realise you were going to be DOP :oops:, I was just wondering what you would do as a Queenslander. I guess I could have found out you were involved with the tournament if I had read the CAQ tournament ad (which had you as the email contact)
if the qld open wasnt on, then I would be off to doeberl. Should be at the qld open anyways as a member of caq council;)

jay_vee
17-03-2006, 03:25 AM
if the qld open wasnt on, then I would be off to doeberl. Should be at the qld open anyways as a member of caq council;)

Of course, the more interesting question is, if the qld open was on, but you were not involved in an official capacity, where would you play, if at all?

Garvinator
17-03-2006, 03:31 AM
Of course, the more interesting question is, if the qld open was on, but you were not involved in an official capacity, where would you play, if at all?
If i was just a player, i would be off to Doeberl this year, having not been there before. CAQ is encouraging our better players to still go to Doeberl as they can get better experience there than we can offer up here, despite what one email was recently interpreted as saying;)

arosar
19-03-2006, 10:29 PM
gray, there is a new comment waiting for you: http://closetgrandmaster.blogspot.com/2006/03/doeberl-cup-2006.html

AR

Alan Shore
20-03-2006, 01:03 AM
gray, there is a new comment waiting for you: http://closetgrandmaster.blogspot.com/2006/03/doeberl-cup-2006.html

AR

Already did comment to the Council.

Bill Powell cited some kind of '20-year old disagreement' with Shaun Press.

Obviously someone has the blinkers on.

arosar
13-04-2006, 10:07 AM
From the NSWCA:

I know it's very late notice and all, but remember that there are two chess events over the Easter long weekend:

The Doeberl Cup in Canberra
Australia's Premier Weekend Event. 4 divisions: Open, U2000, U1600, and Seniors (50 and over). Large cash prizes in all divisions.
Contact Paul Dunn: (02) 6251 1360 (h), pdunn88@aol.com

The Sydney Easter Cup at the Cabravale Diggers Club
If Canberra is too far (or too cold!) for you, why note play closer to home?
Contact: Ernest Dorn 0419 260 240

Also attached is information on upcoming events at the Hakoah Chess Club.

Happy Easter everyone!

Laura Moylan
NSWCA Communications Officer

antichrist
13-04-2006, 11:37 AM
AR, did that go out to all NSWCA members do you know (except me)?

arosar
13-04-2006, 11:40 AM
It would have gone out to whoever has an email addy registered with the NSWCA. At least I think so. But ask Laura.

AR

pax
13-04-2006, 01:01 PM
From the NSWCA:

I know it's very late notice and all, but remember that there are two chess events over the Easter long weekend:


What's the problem?

The email advertising the QLD Open listed reasons why you shouldn't play Doeberl.

The above says if you can't go (or don't want to go) to Canberra, then why not play the SEC. Seems fine to me.