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qpawn
27-02-2006, 07:58 PM
Interesting what you find in some of the FIDE laws: it is specified that you must move with one hand!

That in mind, is there any rule that covers what happens if your opponent doesn't remove a captured piece before pressing a clock, hence costing you time. As a junior I had this very bad habit purely out of ignorance/carelessness rather than any deliberate attempt to put off my opponent. One person pressed down my clock and said that I must "clear the pieces in my own time". I believe that he was morally justified in doing so. But in the FIDE rules is there anything stated specifically that gives someone the right to push the opponent's clock in this circumstance?

eclectic
27-02-2006, 08:45 PM
Interesting what you find in some of the FIDE laws: it is specified that you must move with one hand!

That in mind, is there any rule that covers what happens if your opponent doesn't remove a captured piece before pressing a clock, hence costing you time. As a junior I had this very bad habit purely out of ignorance/carelessness rather than any deliberate attempt to put off my opponent. One person pressed down my clock and said that I must "clear the pieces in my own time". I believe that he was morally justified in doing so. But in the FIDE rules is there anything stated specifically that gives someone the right to push the opponent's clock in this circumstance?




4.6 When, as a legal move or part of a legal move, a piece has been released on a square, it cannot then be moved to another square. The move is considered to have been made when all the relevant requirements of Article 3 have been fulfilled.

a.

in the case of a capture, when the captured piece has been removed from the chessboard and the player, having placed his own piece on its new square, has released this capturing piece from his hand;

clearly indicates the captured piece has to be removed from the chessboard for the move to be complete

as for counterpressing the clock to insist on the captured piece being removed my intuition suggests it would be much wiser to stop the clock and call the arbiter

ElevatorEscapee
27-02-2006, 10:49 PM
Particularly if it is using one of these new fangled digital clocks that adds time every time you press it... or counts the moves (eg if you are playing a 40/90 time limit). ;)

arosar
28-02-2006, 09:08 AM
Consider this, and for simplicity's sake, let's look at the opening moves of the Scandinavian.

1. e4 d5 2. ed5 Qd5

I'm playing black. When playing my second move, I:

i.) pick up the white pawn on d5 with my left hand
ii.) pick up my Queen with my right hand and place it on d5
iii.) press the clock with my right hand.

Of course all these happen within a split second.

Question: am I satisfying rule 4.1? I ask this because I observed one game in the Queenstown blitz where one player, an IM, was doing exactly this movement. The opponent protested by saying, "play with one hand only, alright!"

In an agry tone, the IM, an Aussie, replied, "I am playing with one hand!" Was he?

Thanks.

AR

EGOR
28-02-2006, 09:23 AM
Consider this, and for simplicity's sake, let's look at the opening moves of the Scandinavian.

1. e4 d5 2. ed5 Qd5

I'm playing black. When playing my second move, I:

i.) pick up the white pawn on d5 with my left hand
ii.) pick up my Queen with my right hand and place it on d5
iii.) press the clock with my right hand.

Of course all these happen within a split second.

Question: am I satisfying rule 4.1? I ask this because I observed one game in the Queenstown blitz where one player, an IM, was doing exactly this movement. The opponent protested by saying, "play with one hand only, alright!"

In an agry tone, the IM, an Aussie, replied, "I am playing with one hand!" Was he?

Thanks.

AR

I would say that the IM is clearly not playing with one hand and, unless I'm missing something, is clearly breaking 4.1.

Bill Gletsos
28-02-2006, 09:42 AM
I would say that the IM is clearly not playing with one hand and, unless I'm missing something, is clearly breaking 4.1.He is clearly in breach of the rules. Also the hand that moves the piece must be the hand that presses the clock as per Article 6.8 b.

Denis_Jessop
28-02-2006, 03:09 PM
I assume that qpawn is relatively new to the game so it might be worth mentioning that the rule that a move must be made with one hand was introduced to prevent two-handed castling (picking up the K and R in different hands at the one time and moving them at the same time) which became very trendy in the 1970s (a bit like writing down your move before making it had become trendy in the 1980s and 90s).

DJ

Ian Rout
28-02-2006, 03:22 PM
I assume that qpawn is relatively new to the game so it might be worth mentioning that the rule that a move must be made with one hand was introduced to prevent two-handed castling (picking up the K and R in different hands at the one time and moving them at the same time) which became very trendy in the 1970s (a bit like writing down your move before making it had become trendy in the 1980s and 90s).

DJ
I had the impression that it was more to stop people moving with one hand and pressing the clock with the other. It was possible to press a fraction of a second early without it being detectable to the naked eye, so you would get the benefit of the doubt. I recall it was always (in my lifetime) barred in lightning for that reason, but only in longer games from the mid 1990s after shorter time limits became more common.

I don't see there would be a lot of point introducing it for one move (except where someone manages to castle twice in a game).

eclectic
28-02-2006, 03:42 PM
there's nothing wrong with using one hand to move the pieces and press the clock while using the other to write your moves, is there?

(just an aside)

Rincewind
28-02-2006, 04:27 PM
there's nothing wrong with using one hand to move the pieces and press the clock while using the other to write your moves, is there?

(just an aside)

A more convoluted aside...

Do you need to write your opponent's moves down with the same hand that they use to move the piece. ;)

I can see such a rule would cause much concern to one-handed chessplayers.

Garvinator
28-02-2006, 04:34 PM
there's nothing wrong with using one hand to move the pieces and press the clock while using the other to write your moves, is there?

(just an aside)
this is a very common practice and is very much legal. In fact I would recommend it for most players as a good and simple time saver.

Garvinator
28-02-2006, 04:35 PM
I had the impression that it was more to stop people moving with one hand and pressing the clock with the other. It was possible to press a fraction of a second early without it being detectable to the naked eye, so you would get the benefit of the doubt. I recall it was always (in my lifetime) barred in lightning for that reason, but only in longer games from the mid 1990s after shorter time limits became more common.

I don't see there would be a lot of point introducing it for one move (except where someone manages to castle twice in a game).
this would be my opinion too. Also it helps to alleviate players hoving with their hand over the clock.

Denis_Jessop
28-02-2006, 08:16 PM
I had the impression that it was more to stop people moving with one hand and pressing the clock with the other. It was possible to press a fraction of a second early without it being detectable to the naked eye, so you would get the benefit of the doubt. I recall it was always (in my lifetime) barred in lightning for that reason, but only in longer games from the mid 1990s after shorter time limits became more common.

I don't see there would be a lot of point introducing it for one move (except where someone manages to castle twice in a game).

I'm sure I'm right as I remember the kerfuffle about two-handed castling at the time. And anyway banning the writing of a move before making it is open to the same comment.

Moreover there is a different rule that requires that the move and the clock operation be done by the same hand.

Note also that the rule about moving with one hand is in the Basic Rules (Art.4.1) and so applies even where clocks are not used. The other rule is in the Competition Rules (Art.6.8b). The same para includes the prohibition on keeping your finger on the button or hovering over the clock.

To make it quite clear, Art 4.1 says "Each move must be made with one hand only" and Art. 4.6 relevantly says "The move is considered to have been made when all the requirements of Art. 3 have been fulfilled". It follows that Art. 4.1 has nothing to do with clock management.

DJ

Denis_Jessop
28-02-2006, 08:22 PM
there's nothing wrong with using one hand to move the pieces and press the clock while using the other to write your moves, is there?

(just an aside)

No; that's quite OK. I do it myself being naturally left-handed but having been made to write right-handed in the 1940s. Thus I move and press the clock with my left hand and write the moves with my right. Any prohibition of that practice might end up in the European Human Rights Commission.
:hmm: :rolleyes:

DJ

Ian Rout
28-02-2006, 08:53 PM
I'm sure I'm right as I remember the kerfuffle about two-handed castling at the time. And anyway banning the writing of a move before making it is open to the same comment.

Moreover there is a different rule that requires that the move and the clock operation be done by the same hand.

Note also that the rule about moving with one hand is in the Basic Rules (Art.4.1) and so applies even where clocks are not used. The other rule is in the Competition Rules (Art.6.8b). The same para includes the prohibition on keeping your finger on the button or hovering over the clock.

To make it quite clear, Art 4.1 says "Each move must be made with one hand only" and Art. 4.6 relevantly says "The move is considered to have been made when all the requirements of Art. 3 have been fulfilled". It follows that Art. 4.1 has nothing to do with clock management.

DJ

Possibly it's a package of both, it makes sense to require everything with one hand.

Denis_Jessop
01-03-2006, 04:43 PM
Possibly it's a package of both, it makes sense to require everything with one hand.

Well, maybe. But I can't recall its being common practice to use two hands to move a single piece, in the sense that the term "move" is used in Art 3 and 4, whereas two-handed castling was common and controversial at the time. On the other hand I don't know if the rule is observed in using outdoor sets as in Hyde Park, Sydney. But they have their own rules, I think, and also you are advised never to play there armed with less than a hand gun, so I believe.

DJ