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Carl Gorka
17-01-2006, 08:48 PM
If a player in a tournament game makes an illegal move but the game is carried on because neither player saw the move was illegal (for instance, missing a discovered check) and the game was then finished in favour of the player who made the illegal move, can the losing player appeal after the game when he discovers that an illegal move has been played? And what happens if the player notices a few moves later in the game? Can he get the position reset with the help of an arbiter?

Thanks :)

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 08:58 PM
If a player in a tournament game makes an illegal move but the game is carried on because neither player saw the move was illegal (for instance, missing a discovered check) and the game was then finished in favour of the player who made the illegal move, can the losing player appeal after the game when he discovers that an illegal move has been played?Once the game has ended no claim can be made.


And what happens if the player notices a few moves later in the game? Can he get the position reset with the help of an arbiter?Yes. It is covered by Article 7.4.


7.4
a. If during a game it is found that an illegal move, including failing to meet the requirements of the promotion of a pawn or capturing the opponent`s king, has been completed, the position immediately before the irregularity shall be reinstated. If the position immediately before the irregularity cannot be determined, the game shall continue from the last identifiable position prior to the irregularity. The clocks shall be adjusted according to Article 6.14. Article 4.3 applies to the move replacing the illegal move. The game shall then continue from this reinstated position.

b. After the action taken under Article 7.4(a), for the first two illegal moves by a player the arbiter shall give two minutes extra time to his opponent in each instance; for a third illegal move by the same player, the arbiter shall declare the game lost by this player.

eclectic
18-01-2006, 05:11 AM
Once the game has ended no claim can be made.

So how are such games entered into databases etc .... truncated to a point before the illegality and deemed as though the losing party had resigned there and then?

pax
18-01-2006, 07:55 AM
So how are such games entered into databases etc .... truncated to a point before the illegality and deemed as though the losing party had resigned there and then?

Illegal moves only very rarely happen at a level where the moves are entered in databases, and more rarely still are not detected until the game is concluded (does anyone know of any examples?), so it's a pretty moot point. I suppose you can put all of the scoresheet moves in the PGN with a comment at the point of the illegal move.

Carl Gorka
18-01-2006, 10:58 AM
Thanks Bill, that was exactly what I wanted to know.

Pax, check out the oz junior champs, there are a number of games where an illegal move was made, especially in the under 12's and the girls under 12's. As the games were put online in databases this had to be addressed and the games where illegal moves were made were stopped at that point with a comment such as illegal move made, White won on move X.

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2006, 11:54 AM
Illegal moves only very rarely happen at a level where the moves are entered in databases, and more rarely still are not detected until the game is concluded (does anyone know of any examples?),

Zhao-Rujevic, Aus Champs Mingara 1999-2000 round 5. Zhao played 30.Qh5xb5 which was illegal as he had a pawn on g5 but neither player noticed until the game was finished. He had a clearly won position anyway when this occurred.

I would like game editing software to include an override to permit you to include illegal moves.

eclectic
18-01-2006, 12:00 PM
Zhao-Rujevic, Aus Champs Mingara 1999-2000 round 5. Zhao played 30.Qh5xb5 which was illegal as he had a pawn on g5 but neither player noticed until the game was finished. He had a clearly won position anyway when this occurred.

I would like game editing software to include an override to permit you to include illegal moves.

better still ...

if a mobile phone going off loses a game why not making an illegal move?

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 12:15 PM
better still ...

if a mobile phone going off loses a game why not making an illegal move?
because the phone going off disturbs everybody in the playing hall. An illegal move is easily rectified most of the time.

Never mind that mobiles can be used to communicate moves etc, especially in tournaments with dgt broadcasting.

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 12:40 PM
So how are such games entered into databases etc .... truncated to a point before the illegality and deemed as though the losing party had resigned there and then?You can include the illegal move and the remaining moves as comments in the game score. Therefore athough this wont allow playing the moves in the software, a record of the whole game can be shown.

Ian Rout
18-01-2006, 12:58 PM
You can record a game in Chessbase starting from a set-up position other than the original so it's possible to save the game in two fragments. Not ideal (and not quick) but failing anything else it's at least of way of saving a record of the game. However it probably wouldn't be impossible for CB to change the program to allow entry of illegal moves. It already allows input of a null move, for instance to explain in the notes what the threat is.

eclectic
18-01-2006, 01:02 PM
because the phone going off disturbs everybody in the playing hall. An illegal move is easily rectified most of the time.

Never mind that mobiles can be used to communicate moves etc, especially in tournaments with dgt broadcasting.

and i'm sure that deliberately played illegal moves disturb only the person that needs to be disturbed viz the opponent never mind that they are "compensated" with extra time the damage is usually already done

no doubt the experienced chess "hustler" will when cornered resort to this "tactic" with consummate effect

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 01:04 PM
and i'm sure that deliberately played illegal moves disturb only the person that needs to be disturbed viz the opponent never mind that they are "compensated" with extra time the damage is usually already done

no doubt the experienced chess "hustler" will when cornered resort to this "tactic" with consummate effect
take it up with fide

eclectic
18-01-2006, 01:07 PM
take it up with fide

perhaps guert already haunts this forum for light reading ... [wink]

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 01:10 PM
perhaps guert already haunts this forum for light reading ... [wink]
or maybe he just hovers : p

pax
18-01-2006, 05:47 PM
and i'm sure that deliberately played illegal moves disturb only the person that needs to be disturbed viz the opponent never mind that they are "compensated" with extra time the damage is usually already done

no doubt the experienced chess "hustler" will when cornered resort to this "tactic" with consummate effect

I was a victim of an attempted 'hustle' many years ago in an Australian Junior Lightning. My opponent was a top player (and indeed went on to win the Lightning).

I was crap at lightning, and placed my rook en prise to his queen. When he failed to capture my rook (much to my surprise), I captured his queen. I went on to win the game with checkmate. My opponent did not acknowledge the checkmate and instead sat looking at the board. After failing to extract any acknowledgement from him, I went off to record the result. While I was away from the board, my opponent escaped from checkmate with an illegal move, pressed my clock, and my flag fell. He then attempted to claim a win on time (more to my surprise). Fortunately, the arbiter was having none of it and correctly ruled that the game had ended with checkmate.

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:38 PM
I was a victim of an attempted 'hustle' many years ago in an Australian Junior Lightning. My opponent was a top player (and indeed went on to win the Lightning).I wonder if starter will carry out a forensic investigation to determine what year you played in the Australian Junior.

pax
18-01-2006, 09:13 PM
I wonder if starter will carry out a forensic investigation to determine what year you played in the Australian Junior.

But maybe I only played the lightning ; - )

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 09:17 PM
But maybe I only played the lightning ; - )In which case it would likely be one played in WA. ;)

Bereaved
19-01-2006, 12:29 AM
Hello everyone,
This is probably the most blatent form of an illegal move that I have had to cope with personally... see note to Black's move 27 within the game score.


Nother,A - Macavity
Australian Major 1998
[Fritz 6 (30s)]

1.d4 B07: Pirc Defence: Miscellaneous Systems 1...Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nbd2 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0 c5 7.c3 b6N [7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nc6 9.h3 (9.a3 e5 (9...Nd7 10.Nb3 e5 11.Be3 exd4 12.Nbxd4 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Nxd4 Qb6 15.Bc4 Ne5 16.Bb3 Bg4 17.Qd2 Rac8 18.Rac1 Rc5 19.Bd5 Rfc8 20.Rxc5 Rxc5 21.h3 Bd7 22.Kh2 - Meduna,E-Mirumian,V/Lazne Bohdanec 1997/CBM 57 (22)) 10.d5 Ne7 11.a4 Ne8 12.b3 f5 13.Ba3 Kh8 14.Nc4 Ng8 15.Qc2 Rf7 16.Rac1 f4 17.Qd2 g5 18.Qa5 b6 19.Nxb6 Qxb6 20.Nxg5 Rf6 21.Qxb6 axb6 22.Bb5 h6 23.Nf3 Ba6 Akopian,V-Ehlvest,J/Erevan 1996/TUR 96/- (45); 9...e5 10.Nb3 (10.d5 Nb4 11.Bb1 a5 12.Nc4 b5 13.Ne3 Bd7 14.Re1 Bh6 15.Bd2 Na6 16.a4 bxa4 17.Nc4 Bxd2 18.Nfxd2 Qc7 19.Ra3 Nc5 20.Rc3 Rfe8 21.Qf3 Kg7 22.Rec1 Bb5 23.Qe3 Nfd7 24.f4 f6 Deutsch,L-Steiner,P/AUT 1998/EXT 99/1-0 (48)) 10...a5 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Be3 a4 13.Nc5 Qa5 14.a3 Rd8 15.b4 axb3 16.Qxb3 b6 17.Rfc1 bxc5 18.Rxc5 Ba6 19.Bc4 Bxc4 20.Qxc4 Qa4 21.Rxc6 Nxe4 22.Bb6 Rdb8 23.Rc1 Qxc4 24.R1xc4 Nf6 25.Nxe5 Re8 26.Bd4 Nd5 - Karolyi,T-Yurtaev,L/Frunze 1987/TD 87\01 (26)] 8.Re1 Ba6 9.Bc2 cxd4 10.cxd4 Nc6 11.a3 e5 12.d5 Ne7 13.Nf1 Ne8 14.Ng3 Bc8 15.Bb3 h6 16.Bd2 f5 17.a4 f4 18.Nf1 g5 19.Bb4 Ng6 20.N3d2 g4 21.Rc1 [21.f3 Qg5] 21...Rf7 [21...f3 22.g3=] 22.Rc2 [22.Rc3 Bh8] 22...Bf8 [22...f3 23.g3=] 23.Qe2 [23.Bc4!? is worth looking at] 23...f3 24.Qe3 [24.gxf3 Nf4 25.Qe3 gxf3 26.Nxf3 Qd7] 24...fxg2 [24...Nh4 25.Rec1 Nxg2 26.Qc3-+] 25.Kxg2 Nh4+ [25...Qh4 26.Ng3 Be7] 26.Kg1? [26.Kh1 and White is still in the game] 26...Nf3+-+ 27.Nxf3 [27.Kg2 Nxe1+ 28.Qxe1 Qh4-+] 27...Rxf3 [B]I left the board at this time to go downstairs to have a cigarette; upon return, I found that my opponent had played [27...gxf3?! 28.Ng3=] 28.Qd2 but one other aspect of the position was different, white's b2 pawn was on a2, defending his Bb3. Being unsure what to do, I eventually cheekily leant across and said "J'adoube!!" in a firm voice, and pushed the pawn back to b2, its correct square. At this little episode my opponent immediately began to bluster about that he had bumped the pawn and didn't know where it was; hardly likely with a 1700+ rating, is it?? [28.Qe2 Rxb3 29.Bc3 b5-+] 28...Rxb3 29.Bc3 Kh7 [29...b5!? keeps an even firmer grip 30.axb5 Nf6 31.Qd3-+] 30.Qd3 Bd7 [30...b5 31.a5-+] 31.Qc4 [31.Nd2 Rxc3 32.Rxc3 Bxa4-+] 31...Rxc3 32.Rxc3 h5 [32...Rc8 33.Qb4-+] 33.Rec1 Bh6 34.R1c2 Bf4 [34...Rc8 35.Qa6 Rxc3 36.Rxc3-+] 35.Qa6 Kg6 36.b3 b5 37.Qb7 [37.axb5 Qb6 38.Ra2 Qxa6 39.bxa6 Nf6-+] 37...Rb8 [37...bxa4!? makes it even easier for Black 38.bxa4 Bxa4 39.Rc8 Rxc8 40.Rxc8-+] 38.Qxa7 bxa4 39.bxa4 Rb1 [39...Ra8 40.Qb7-+] 40.Kg2 [40.f3 Qg5 41.fxg4 Bxg4-+ (41...Qxg4+?? 42.Rg2 Nf6 43.Rc7+-) ] 40...Ra1 41.Qb7 Bxa4 42.Rc8 [42.Rb2 Re1 43.Rb1 Rxe4 44.Ng3 Bxg3 45.hxg3-+] 42...Qh4 43.R2c3 Ra2 [43...Rxf1!? and Black can already relax 44.Kxf1 Qxh2 45.Rb3-+] 44.Rg3 Bxg3 45.hxg3 Qh3+ 46.Kg1 Ra1 47.Qa6 Bd1 48.Qb5 The mate threat is Qxe8 [48.Qxa1 Bf3 49.Ne3 Qh1#] 48...Nf6 49.Rg8+ [49.Rf8 Bc2 50.Qe2 Bxe4 51.f3 Bxf3 52.Qc2+ Kg7 53.Qc7+ Kxf8 54.Qxd6+ Kg7 55.Qe7+ Kg6 56.Qxf6+ Kxf6 57.Kf2 Qxf1+ 58.Ke3 Qe2#] 49...Nxg8 50.Qe8+ Kg7 51.Qd7+ Kh8 52.Qxd6 [52.Qg7+ doesn't improve anything 52...Kxg7 53.f4 Bc2 54.Kf2 Qxf1+ 55.Ke3 Qe1#] 52...Qxf1+!? [52...Qxf1+ 53.Kh2 (53.Kxf1 Bf3#) 53...Qxf2+ 54.Kh1 Bf3#] 0-1


What do people think; did I react appropriately, or would it have been better to call the arbiter?

Feedback appreciated,

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

WhiteElephant
19-01-2006, 12:41 AM
I wonder if starter will carry out a forensic investigation to determine what year you played in the Australian Junior.

No need, just tell us who your opponent was :)

(Pax that is, not Bill)

WhiteElephant
19-01-2006, 12:44 AM
Hello everyone,
This is probably the most blatent form of an illegal move that I have had to cope with personally... see note to Black's move 27 within the game score.

What do people think; did I react appropriately, or would it have been better to call the arbiter?

Feedback appreciated,

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Nicely handled with tact and decorum.

People who try to cheat like that have no shame....

Garvinator
19-01-2006, 12:46 AM
What do people think; did I react appropriately, or would it have been better to call the arbiter?
I will always say stop the clocks and call the arbiter ; )

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2006, 12:53 AM
What do people think; did I react appropriately, or would it have been better to call the arbiter?

Feedback appreciated,

Art 4.2 says the player having the move "may adjust one or more pieces on their squares". It doesn't say "onto their squares" but as an arbiter I turn a blind eye to such irregularities provided that justice is delivered and an incident avoided.

I do wonder why the opponent bothered since the game is recorded and could be easily reconstructed.

arosar
19-01-2006, 06:39 AM
In such circumstances, there is only one appropriate response. Take out a "contract".

Seriously, there were a couple of instances involving illegal moves here in Qtown which forced Gary Bekker to make an announcement the following day that maybe some players need to brush up on their basic chess rules.

For example, a mate of mine had a N on e4. His opponent moved his K to f6. But instead of saying, "you're in check", my mate captured a pawn on d6! They only discovered the error when they put the game through Fritz.

AR

Rincewind
19-01-2006, 06:57 AM
Mistakes and misunderstandings happen, apparently even in GM play. I might be remembering this story wrong but I recall the reporting of an incident where a visiting GM was playing in an Australian event. His opponent played o-o-o but the GM appealled as he believed the move was illegal since he had a piece attacking b1 (or b8 as I can't recall the colours). He was politely informed that only c1-e1 need not be attacked to enable castling queenside, I don't remember if there were further ramifications. Perhaps someone can provide more details.

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 07:37 AM
Many years ago I had a bombshell sacrifice played against me and nearly lost a won game. It was only when analysing the game afterwards that it was realised that my opponent had offered a piece sacrifice by taking one of his own pawns.

Trent Parker
19-01-2006, 09:10 AM
Last Year at the ANU.....

I was playing a NSW Junior

I was black and coming off of losing to 2 ACT Juniors. It was a QGD and my opponent played Bg5. I won the game and then we decided to analyse it afterwards. Both of our scoresheets showed my opponent as playing e3 before playing Bg5. I found it astonishing that i did not see it at the time....

Oepty
19-01-2006, 05:39 PM
I castled in a game after moving my King. I had allowed a sac on f7 wining a pawn in the opening and then my King went back to e8. This game is in a database of SA games and extra moves were added to allow the peices to rearrange themselves into the position which occurred. It was my third rated game I think.
Scott

ElevatorEscapee
19-01-2006, 09:09 PM
Isn't there a famous game, where Black castled twice? (First on the Kingside, then moved his King back to it's original square after an early attack... then later on the Queenside? ... with neither player realizing until after the game?) I am sure I read that somewhere in "The Complete Chess Addict". ;)

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2006, 12:26 AM
Isn't there a famous game, where Black castled twice? (First on the Kingside, then moved his King back to it's original square after an early attack... then later on the Queenside? ... with neither player realizing until after the game?) I am sure I read that somewhere in "The Complete Chess Addict". ;)Yes, Heidenfeld did it against Kerins in an Irish club match in 1973.

Heidenfeld - Kerins, Dublin 1973: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Be3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Nf3 Qb6 8.Qd2 c4 9.Be2 Na5 10.0-0 f5 11.Ng5 Be7 12.g4 Bxg5 13.fxg5 Nf8 14.gxf5 exf5 15.Bf3 Be6 16.Qg2 0-0-0 17.Na3 Ng6 18.Qd2 f4 19.Bf2 Bh3 20.Rfb1 Bf5 21.Nc2 h6 22.gxh6 Rxh6 23.Nb4 Qe6 24.Qe2 Ne7 25.b3 Qg6+ 26.Kf1 Bxb1 27.bxc4 dxc4 28.Qb2 Bd3+ 29.Ke1 Be4 30.Qe2 Bxf3 31.Qxf3 Rxh2 32.d5 Qf5 33.0-0-0 Rh3 34.Qe2 Rxc3+ 35.Kb2 Rh3 36.d6 Nec6 37.Nxc6 Nxc6 38.e6 Qe5+ 39.Qxe5 Nxe5 40.d7+ Nxd7 0-1.

ElevatorEscapee
20-01-2006, 12:36 AM
Thanks Bill! I was having a flick through the book before I posted it... and for the life of me I couldn't find it

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2006, 12:42 AM
Thanks Bill! I was having a flick through the book before I posted it... and for the life of me I couldn't find itThe game isnt in the book, it is only mentioned.

arosar
20-01-2006, 07:00 AM
Mistakes and misunderstandings happen, apparently even in GM play. I might be remembering this story wrong but I recall the reporting of an incident where a visiting GM was playing in an Australian event. His opponent played o-o-o but the GM appealled as he believed the move was illegal since he had a piece attacking b1 (or b8 as I can't recall the colours). He was politely informed that only c1-e1 need not be attacked to enable castling queenside, I don't remember if there were further ramifications. Perhaps someone can provide more details.

Sounds similar to Kortchnoi in his match against Karpov in Baguio (I think)?

AR

eclectic
20-01-2006, 07:11 AM
Sounds similar to Kortchnoi in his match against Karpov in Baguio (I think)?

AR

perhaps you mean their 1974 candidates match in which kortchnoi asked the arbiter if castling when the castling rook is under attack is legal ... it is

Trizza
20-01-2006, 04:13 PM
Several amusing incidents from when I was a (young) junior:

In a tournament game I almost played Qg7 takes pawn on b2, even though I had a pawn on e5. I had actually analysed the move a fair bit to make sure my queen wasn't going to be trapped!

In a training (i.e. not rated) game prior to an Aust junior I castled on move 40. Actually it wasn't the best move but I was a piece up in an ending and thought this would be the latest I'd ever castle. Earlier in the game I'd played Rh1-h3, and shuffled it along the 3rd rank a few times before eventually returning it to h1! Neither of us noticed during the game or the post mortem, it was only when I played over the game some time later I realised.