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Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 01:53 PM
1. until 17.f4 Ly was clearly better against Rogers. Now it's not that clear
2. zhao is better, even though not decisive. Zhao will probably get there.
3. don't like last white move in Chandler - Wade, but he probably knows what he is doing better then me
4. Bourmistrov - Wohl. unclear. Personally wouldn't play 16.f4, now black's position is preferrable.
5. Johnson - Sermek. Black is probably strong enough to eventually capitalise on c-pawns weaknesses. Unless there is some tactics, black's position is clearly better.

Tha's my 2cents worth.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 02:03 PM
1. until 17.f4 Ly was clearly better against Rogers. Now it's not that clear
2. zhao is better, even though not decisive. Zhao will probably get there.
3. don't like last white move in Chandler - Wade, but he probably knows what he is doing better then me
4. Bourmistrov - Wohl. unclear. Personally wouldn't play 16.f4, now black's position is preferrable.
5. Johnson - Sermek. Black is probably strong enough to eventually capitalise on c-pawns weaknesses. Unless there is some tactics, black's position is clearly better.

Tha's my 2cents worth.

I did not like f4 at first but when i looked at the position closer, I thought that was a good way to solve the d4 threat.

19 ..Kf2 looks dubious to me though.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:08 PM
d4 is a threat, so he should've played Nd2 or even Nc1. Pawn is still a pawn though. Now black is even slightly better (not much though).

As for 19.Kf2, alternatives aren't much better.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:13 PM
After forcing white light square bishop off the board, black is clearly better. Something like 18.Bc4 would probably be the best chance. 16.f4 was a very bad move. Playing accurately, white still can manage to hold.

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2006, 02:14 PM
Move 22 of Ly-Rogers and White doesn't look that bad to me, am I missing something?

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:15 PM
It seems to me 22.Rxe7 Qxe7 23. Qd2 wins for white.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 02:15 PM
Move 22 of Ly-Rogers and White doesn't look that bad to me, am I missing something?

Yes, it is probably about equal, while white used to be a pawn up.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:17 PM
Move 22 of Ly-Rogers and White doesn't look that bad to me, am I missing something?

I don't like 22.gf3. Black now seems definetely better (too many week pawns for white)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:19 PM
Instead of trying to equalise, black is playing for attack which has no chances of succeeding. 20.Rd1 looks pretty good

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:23 PM
20... d5 was completely unexpected to me. I thought about something like 20...Qa6. Guess that's the difference between GM and FM

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:25 PM
I don't understand 18...Qd7. Would prefer 18...Qe7 to protect pawn e4, then put a knight on d5 and cover e5 square with f6.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 02:26 PM
I don't like 22.gf3. Black now seems definetely better (too many week pawns for white)

Both black and white have 3 pawn islands. The knight on d4 is very good. The position is equal other than black is gm black currently has nothing.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:29 PM
I don't think Nxe6 is a threat as black would be happy to recapture with the pawn anyway. Accidently, h7 pawn is untouchable because of Rh8 (in case white hopes for 27.Bxh7 g6 28. Nxe6 fxe6 29. Bxg6)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:31 PM
Both black and white have 3 pawn islands. The knight on d4 is very good. The position is equal other than black is gm black currently has nothing.

I agree it's almost equal, but white pawns are easier to attack and black a bit more active. I'd say very small plus for black (and Rogers definetely better in the endgame. Maybe he deliberately went for worse endgame in the beginning?)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:33 PM
I don't think Nxe6 is a threat as black would be happy to recapture with the pawn anyway. Accidently, h7 pawn is untouchable because of Rh8 (in case white hopes for 27.Bxh7 g6 28. Nxe6 fxe6 29. Bxg6)

Obviously, Rogers had different opinion. That is not going to be my last mistake :)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:35 PM
I don't understand 18...Qd7. Would prefer 18...Qe7 to protect pawn e4, then put a knight on d5 and cover e5 square with f6.

OK, didn't realise pe4 is untouchable (after Re1 still poisoned due to Bf5).

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:37 PM
21. e6 looks tempting

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2006, 02:42 PM
So what is Moulthun's endgame like?

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:42 PM
Black does not seem winning any more. Maybe 20...d5 wasn't such a good move?

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:43 PM
So what is Moulthun's endgame like?

about equal. Very small plus for black. I can't see an active plan for black, though. Rook cannot attack f and h pawns at the moment

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:45 PM
What about 25.fxg5 ?

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2006, 02:49 PM
about equal. Very small plus for black. I can't see an active plan for black, though. Rook cannot attack f and h pawns at the moment

I mean how well does Moulthun play endgames these days; is he good enough to hold a slightly worse position against a GM?

I played an endgame against him myself but that was a year, and in his case 300 ratings points, ago.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:51 PM
Wohl miscalculated. After 24. Nc5 white should have an extra pawn in the endgame (but black will have very good chances for a draw).

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:53 PM
I mean how well does Moulthun play endgames these days; is he good enough to hold a slightly worse position against a GM?

I played an endgame against him myself but that was a year, and in his case 300 ratings points, ago.

Not as good as Rogers. He had better endgame against me in the championship and and against Solomon in the rapid, but did not find anything. I don't belleive that his endgame against Song was lost (before he gave all the pawns away). That said, he must still be good enough to hold this position.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:56 PM
I got it all wrong, did not see Rxe3. Nc5 was still better then g5, though

Trizza
16-01-2006, 02:56 PM
Wohl miscalculated. After 24. Nc5 white should have an extra pawn in the endgame (but black will have very good chances for a draw).

Am I missing something? After 24 Nc5 Rxe3 how does white end up with an extra pawn?

In any case it was better than 24.Ng5 as played. Now Rxe3 seems to win material, with the d3 bishop undefended.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 02:57 PM
Am I missing something? After 24 Nc5 Rxe3 how does white end up with an extra pawn?

In any case it was better than 24.Ng5 as played. Now Rxe3 seems to win material, with the d3 bishop undefended.

You are right. Rd1 still holds, though (but pawn f4 is gone)

pax
16-01-2006, 02:58 PM
We have seen several times recently that Rogers is quite happy to trade into a slightly better endgame if he thinks he can outplay his opponent in the last stage. I'm guessing that will happen again here.

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 03:03 PM
You are right. Rd1 still holds, though (but pawn f4 is gone)Isnt this winning easily for Black.
1. Ng5 Rxe3 2. Red1 Bxd3 3. Rxd3 Re1+ 4. Kf2 Re8

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:04 PM
We have seen several times recently that Rogers is quite happy to trade into a slightly better endgame if he thinks he can outplay his opponent in the last stage. I'm guessing that will happen again here.

Now he has some permanent advantage (2 pawn islands against 3, bishop better then night, despite pawn c4 weakness). Rook can alternate between attacking pb2 and king-size pawns

Trizza
16-01-2006, 03:05 PM
Isnt this winning easily for Black.
1. Ng5 Rxe3 2. Red1 Bxd3 3. Rxd3 Re1+ 4. Kf2 Re8

Looks like it. I was thinking Rxd3 wins a piece but this seems even better.

Edit: Rxd3 has been played. Still an easy win.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:05 PM
Isnt this winning easily for Black.
1. Ng5 Rxe3 2. Red1 Bxd3 3. Rxd3 Re1+ 4. Kf2 Re8

No. 5.Qd2. But Wohl found much better way. I am ashamed for not seeing it.

WhiteElephant
16-01-2006, 03:06 PM
Looks like it. I was thinking Rxd3 wins a piece but this seems even better.

As much as I want me mate Denis to win, I think his position is now resignable.

Davidflude
16-01-2006, 03:07 PM
Am I missing something. I feel that Ly should play to swap off the rooks and then he has an exellent knight versus bishop ending. Obviously Ian will try to avoid this.

WhiteElephant
16-01-2006, 03:08 PM
Whoa...he resigned....

Trizza
16-01-2006, 03:08 PM
No. 5.Qd2. But Wohl found much better way. I am ashamed for not seeing it.

Doesn't that run straight into Re2+ ??

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 03:09 PM
No. 5.Qd2. But Wohl found much better way. I am ashamed for not seeing it.How does Qd2 help, as it just loses to 5. Re2+ winning the Queen.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:09 PM
Am I missing something. I feel that Ly should play to swap off the rooks and then he has an exellent knight versus bishop ending. Obviously Ian will try to avoid this.

I don't think knight versus bishop is good for white here. After all, we have 3-2 on each side with white pawns much weaker.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:10 PM
Am I missing something. I feel that Ly should play to swap off the rooks and then he has an exellent knight versus bishop ending. Obviously Ian will try to avoid this.

It is very drawish either way...

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:10 PM
How does Qd2 help, as it just loses to 5. Re2+ winning the Queen.

Yes, you are right

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 03:11 PM
Yes, you are rightNo, fritz 9 is. ;)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:11 PM
It is very drawish either way...

I'd rather have black in this position

Trizza
16-01-2006, 03:12 PM
Yes, you are right

Doesn't matter, we all make mistakes and you were obviously analysing much better in Brisbane. Gave my friend Jay a fair beating.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:12 PM
it looks like Molton is very close to his goal. Rd4 is an excelent attempt to go to completely drawn rook endgame.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:14 PM
it looks like Molton is very close to his goal. Rd4 is an excelent attempt to go to completely drawn rook endgame.

Yes, Nc4 now!!!

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 03:15 PM
I got it all wrong, did not see Rxe3. Nc5 was still better then g5, thoughYour Nc5 is quite playable according to Fritz with a slight advantage to Black.

1. Nc5 Rxe3 2. Qf2 Bxd3 3. Nxd3 Re8 4. Rxe3 Qxe3 5. Re1 Qxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Rxe1 7. Kxe1 Nc4

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:16 PM
Yes, Nc4 now!!!

I'd hate to play this endgame with white

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:18 PM
I'd hate to play this endgame with white

Even if all pawns on queenside are gone, the rook ending is easily drawn.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:19 PM
What about 37.Qxg6?

If 37... Qxh3, then 38.Nh2
Of 37... Qxg6 38.Rxg6 Rc1+ 39.Ng1 (not Kg2 Re2).

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:21 PM
I really like white's position. Would be a shame if he doesn't win

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:22 PM
I really like white's position. Would be a shame if he doesn't win

34. axb5 was premature, though

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 03:23 PM
34. Rd6 was better for Ly than Rd4 and Rh5 was better for Rogers than Rb5.

29. Nc2 Rxe1 30. Rxe1 Nc4 31. Bxc4 dxc4 32. Ne3 Be6 33. Rd1 Ra5 34. Rd4 (34. Rd6 Rb5 35. Nxc4 Ke7 36. Rd4 Bxc4 37. Rxc4 Rxb2+ 38. Kg3) 34... Rb5 (34... Rh5 35. Kg3 b5) 35. Rd2 (35. Nxc4 Bxc4 36. Rxc4 Rxb2+ 37. Kg3 b5 38. Rf4+ Ke5)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:27 PM
How many of us saw 38.Qf1 after 36...Qf5? I didn't.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:27 PM
34. Rd6 was better for Ly than Rd4 and Rh5 was better for Rogers than Rb5.

29. Nc2 Rxe1 30. Rxe1 Nc4 31. Bxc4 dxc4 32. Ne3 Be6 33. Rd1 Ra5 34. Rd4 (34. Rd6 Rb5 35. Nxc4 Ke7 36. Rd4 Bxc4 37. Rxc4 Rxb2+ 38. Kg3) 34... Rb5 (34... Rh5 35. Kg3 b5)

Come on, fritzy does not understand this position! The only difference is that the black king is on e7 rather than f6.. How could it possibly matter?

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:31 PM
Zhao tactics is exellent. 25. Bc7 wins at least a pawn

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:32 PM
Rooks exchange favours black, minor pieces exchange favours white

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:33 PM
Even if all pawns on queenside are gone, the rook ending is easily drawn.

35 Nc4 Bc4 36 Rc4 Rb2 37 Kg3 Now

if 37 ... Rb3 then 38 a4 and 39 Rb4
if 37 ... b5 then 38 Rc6+ and 39 c4

In both cases white hold a pass pawn on a file. It is a technical draw.

Now after 35 Rd2 the position is complicated enough for Molton to blunder.:((

pax
16-01-2006, 03:33 PM
Even if all pawns on queenside are gone, the rook ending is easily drawn.

I don't think any rook endings are easily anything : - )

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:34 PM
White now has to play very carefully to hold a draw

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 03:35 PM
Come on, fritzy does not understand this position! The only difference is that the black king is on e7 rather than f6.. How could it possibly matter?It only makes no difference because Ian didnt play 34. ..Rh5. If he had played Rh5 then he can push the b5 pawn to protect c4.

If Ly had played 34. Rd6. Ian would not have had the possibility to play Rh5 because in that line then Ly would get a passed a pawn via 34... Rh5 35. Rxb6 Rxh2+ 36. Kg3 Rh3+ 37. Kg2 Rh4 38. a4

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:37 PM
40. Bg6+ - what a blunder!!
40... Kxg6

Trizza
16-01-2006, 03:39 PM
40... Qxe5! ouch!!

Johnson has also just thrown away a bishop - probably due to lack of time.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:40 PM
Any chance to see his face expression after 40...Qxe5?

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:43 PM
I don't think any rook endings are easily anything : - )

It is true in general, but in this case it is technically drawn position. If 2300 player can't hold it would be a shame.:))

Altecman
16-01-2006, 03:45 PM
I think 37. f5 would have been better then 37.Kf3 because if 37..Bxf5 38.Nxc4

Altecman
16-01-2006, 03:48 PM
Hmm bad for Johnson, i think he could of won that game if it was not for time trouble

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:48 PM
I think 37. f5 would have been better then 37.Kf3 because if 37..Bxf5 38.Nxc4

And get 3-1 on each side?

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:48 PM
Bf7 is a nasty threat

Altecman
16-01-2006, 03:49 PM
Dizdarivic does not look to good either, does anyone know the any other results for the other games? (not the top 5 boards)

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:50 PM
What about 40. Rd6 b5 41.a4 or 41. Rb6

Altecman
16-01-2006, 03:51 PM
And get 3-1 on each side?


Yeah, i htought that would be a way for Ly to try to win because whites king is closer to blacks 3 then black is to Whites.. and then maby a4 might be on the cards after Nxc4

Altecman
16-01-2006, 03:53 PM
I think Ly- rogers should be a drew if correct play from Ly, i dont thionk rogers can win

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:55 PM
Yeah, i htought that would be a way for Ly to try to win because whites king is closer to blacks 3 then black is to Whites.. and then maby a4 might be on the cards after Nxc4

Wouldn't bet on it. Generally bishop is way better then knight in this sort of position.

It would be intresting to analyse 41. Rxg6, as white king is much more active now and white can attack queen side very fast. Need to calculate carefully.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 03:56 PM
How is white going to win after 43... Rxg2 and 44... Qxd5 ? According to Rogers, Chandler has a very good endgame technique, but would it help in this position? Intresting to see.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 03:59 PM
I think Ly- rogers should be a drew if correct play from Ly, i dont thionk rogers can win

the same trick as in my game against Molton, Rogers is winning now.:(

WhiteElephant
16-01-2006, 04:01 PM
Yeah, looks like Rogers can force a queen swap and the king will clean up the pawns.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 04:01 PM
He can force exchange of queens and pawn ending is easily won. Did he see it when exchanging pieces? If yes, it's amazing!

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 04:02 PM
Obviously, Chandler didn't like his position. Very unfortunate blunder on e5

Altecman
16-01-2006, 04:06 PM
Well it looks like ly is about to lose

Altecman
16-01-2006, 04:06 PM
So does anyone know any results to other games

Trizza
16-01-2006, 04:07 PM
Obviously, Chandler didn't like his position. Very unfortunate blunder on e5

Possibly his clock position had something to do with it also, plus the shock of the blunder.

For Zhao, wasn't the simple g3 even more effective than the flashy Bxf7+ ?
Still looking very good though.

Altecman
16-01-2006, 04:08 PM
Zhao has won his game im pritty sure

Altecman
16-01-2006, 04:09 PM
Also a very good result for Wade, drawing with Chandler!!

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 04:13 PM
Also a very good result for Wade, drawing with Chandler!!

Lucky after white's blunder. Chandler played a very good game until 40.d5.
Unlucky 40th moves aren't in the history bin yet.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 04:13 PM
Zhao is very comfortable playing queen vs rook + bishop endgame. I had one against him 1/2 year ago. Black can result now.:)

Vlad
16-01-2006, 04:16 PM
He can force exchange of queens and pawn ending is easily won. Did he see it when exchanging pieces? If yes, it's amazing!

I think Rogers has seen the analysis of Molton - Smirnov endgame. The win for black there had exactly the same idea.:)

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Ly should not have allowed that unless 41.Ng4+ was somehow forced. Looks like it was just a blunder. I tell people this again and again - if you have time on your clock (Moulthun had 20+ minutes) do not exchange into a pure pawn ending without calculating it. It's just so easy to lose.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 04:18 PM
Wouldn't bet on it. Generally bishop is way better then knight in this sort of position.

It would be intresting to analyse 41. Rxg6, as white king is much more active now and white can attack queen side very fast. Need to calculate carefully.

41. Rxg6 wasn't good either, as black can hold queen side, which means eventual win. Should've just hold the position.

This a common mistake, a desire to force a draw. Physcologically it's very difficult to hold a slightly worse position against stronger player without trying to force a draw immediately.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-01-2006, 04:23 PM
a6 pawn is gone, it's all over

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 04:26 PM
a6 pawn is gone, it's all overLooks like he preferred the h6 pawn.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 04:26 PM
Looks like he preferred the h6 pawn.

I think he wants both of them.:)

Vlad
16-01-2006, 04:29 PM
Ly should not have allowed that unless 41.Ng4+ was somehow forced. Looks like it was just a blunder. I tell people this again and again - if you have time on your clock (Moulthun had 20+ minutes) do not exchange into a pure pawn ending without calculating it. It's just so easy to lose.

it is not so easy to calculate though. At the beginning it really looked like it was a drawn endgame. The only thing I would blame Molton for is not analyzing his own games.

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2006, 04:29 PM
I think he wants both of them.:)Perhaps incorrectly I assumed he isnt interested in a6 but wants the g pawn so as to protect g2 and get the h pawn running.

Vlad
16-01-2006, 04:31 PM
Perhaps incorrectly I assumed he isnt interested in a6 but wants the g pawn so as to protect g2 and get the h pawn running.

he could do that as well, in a position like this literally anything works.:)

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2006, 12:00 PM
Just been looking at Chandler-Wade from yesterday.

After 38...Ree2 White is effectively more than a piece up and stays that way if he just plays 39.Rg5. But instead the plan with 39.Bb3 and 40.d5 fails because Chandler, probably short of time had overlooked 40...Qxe5! and, even more to the point, 41...Qe4! White is probably still winning after 39.Bb3 if he switches plans, eg 40.Bd6+ Ke8 and now according to Fritz 41.Ba3 or 41.Bd1 both force exchanges into very favourable if rather strange endings for White with white rook and three pieces for black queen and three pawns (plus one or two pawns for either side depending on the line). Chandler's time trouble was a significant factor but all credit to Wade for a wonderful swindle from a clearly lost position.

pax
17-01-2006, 12:03 PM
Hi all,

I now have unofficial coverage of Queenstown on my website at:
http://paxmans.net/queenstown/

The available PGN is also accessible in a play-through applet.

At the moment I am entering results manually, so there may be errors (if you spot any pls PM or email me).

Jon

Altecman
17-01-2006, 12:24 PM
Couple of french games there, i felt like watching a sicilian to be honest but of well

Phil Bourke
17-01-2006, 12:37 PM
Heaven for some of us ; )
Plus Lane has played a Dutch-Leningrad, life doesn't get much better.

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Couple of french games there, i felt like watching a sicilian to be honest but of wellAlthough the Wohl game isnt your typical French.

Lucena
17-01-2006, 12:43 PM
Although the Wohl game isnt your typical French. I was thinking it was more of a Grob deferred:D

Altecman
17-01-2006, 12:43 PM
lol, yeah but i dont think Wohl likes to play "traditional" openings, for example when he played Smerdon rd 10 Aust Championships with 1.a3! lol and here 2.Qe2 in the french :)

Sutek
17-01-2006, 12:43 PM
Although the Wohl game isnt your typical French.

I have a feeling the Wohl position is probably wrong and he played 3.g3 not 3.g4?

Altecman
17-01-2006, 12:47 PM
3.g4 is ment to be very attacking, it is a plan in the french but not a very good one, he prob thinks it would work against his oppodent

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2006, 12:54 PM
Rogers-Geveke is the Winawer 6...Qc7 line that I play a lot of the time albeit with rather double-edged results. However I play 7...f5. Don't know anything about 7...f6 so will follow this with interest. According to chessbase it's in obscure territory theoretically already as early as move 10.

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 12:55 PM
lol, yeah but i dont think Wohl likes to play "traditional" openings, for example when he played Smerdon rd 10 Aust Championships with 1.a3! lol and here 2.Qe2 in the french :)2. Qe2 in the French isnt that strange. There are 3356 games in Mega2006 and 1981 after 2... c5.
Interestingly there are 664 with 3.g3 but none with 3. g4.

Phil Bourke
17-01-2006, 12:59 PM
Mastering the French has only one line against 7...f6, 8 Bb5+ Kf8 9 a4!? with the comment "is very messy"
I too stick with 7...f5 so have no experience in this line, though it doesn't look too bad at the moment, many French positions look fine for Black, until they implode : )

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2006, 01:04 PM
2.Qe2 is a pretty common and well known line for people who want to avoid the main lines.

If the pawn is on g4 Black could have taken it without apparent disaster. I reckon it is on g3.

Davidflude
17-01-2006, 01:14 PM
Wohl is playing a similar line to one that I play against the sicilian in correspondence. I cannot show games as they are still in progress.

1 e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g4

The ideas are rather similar to get a King's Indian attack where white has gained time by playing g4 in on move rather than in two moves. There is so little theory on these lines that both players have to think for themselves much earlier than is normal.

Go to Jeremy Silman's site and look at the opening analysis section.

Phil Bourke
17-01-2006, 01:18 PM
That is the one titled, "Oops, I slipped" : )
I just checked, it is under "Bits and pieces", titled "My hand slipped".

gambitcrazy
17-01-2006, 01:27 PM
2.Qe2 is a pretty common and well known line for people who want to avoid the main lines.

If the pawn is on g4 Black could have taken it without apparent disaster. I reckon it is on g3.

Also, if it was on g4 then after 12. h4 black can simply play 12. ... Bxh4, if the pawn is really on g3 as it would seem to be then it protects h4

I wonder what will happen when a piece (or the g3 pawn) really is moved to g4? will the board throw a fit and refuse to show anymore moves? or will the g4 pawn just dissapear? or something else?

GC

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2006, 01:37 PM
Mastering the French has only one line against 7...f6, 8 Bb5+ Kf8 9 a4!? with the comment "is very messy"

NCO has 8.Bb5+ (8.Nf3 Nc6 (8,c4 Qg3 +/-) 9.Bb5 Qf7 10.0-0 +/=) 8...Kf8 9.Nf3 a6 10.Bd3 cxd4 11.0-0 dxc3 12.a4 +/=

Watson ignores 7...f6 entirely.

The old Gligoric and Uhlmann book says it is an "idea worth noting" and quotes Matulovic-R.Byrne, Sousse Interzonal 1967, which continued 8.Nf3 c4 ("not 8...Nc6 9.Qg3!") 9.Bd2 Nc6 10.0-0 Qf7 11.Qh3 Nge7 12.a4 Be7 13.Ba3 0-0-0 14.a5 h5 15.Ne2 "and now Black could have equalised with [15...Nf5]" (May be mistakes in those moves as I have translated them from algebraic.)

I also have an old five-volume ECO which gives the Matulovic-Byrne game with an !? for 8...c4 and a net evaluation of equals as well as 8... Nc6 9.Qg3 Qf7 10.dc5 Nge7 11.Bd3 fe5 12.Ne5 Ne6 13.Qe5 0-0 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Qg3 e5 16.Be3+/- Smyslov-Botvinnik, Moscow 1957 and 8...Nc6 9.Nf3 Qf7 10.0-0 (10.dc5! intending c4) Nge7 11.a4 Bd7 12.Ba3 f5 (Diex del Corral-Keene, Montilla 1974) 13.Qh4 c4 14.Bc6 +/-

Interestingly given the Gligoric-Uhlmann commentary and the +/- assessment in ECO, 9.Qg3 was played by Rogers in this game.

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2006, 01:42 PM
Also, if it was on g4 then after 12. h4 black can simply play 12. ... Bxh4, if the pawn is really on g3 as it would seem to be then it protects h4

I wonder what will happen when a piece (or the g3 pawn) really is moved to g4? will the board throw a fit and refuse to show anymore moves? or will the g4 pawn just dissapear? or something else?

Yes, it must be on g3. We now see the thematic KIA-style g3/h4 pawn formation.

The thing with Wohl is that he is such an original and offbeat player in the opening that people could really credit him playing a move like 3.g4. With anyone else it would just be too obvious the board was wrong.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:24 PM
1. Wohl - Steadman. first of all, the pawn could be on g4. Bxh4 was loosing because of unprotected Nc6. Hard to estimate, but I think white is better, mainly because black has no counterplay on wueenside and some weaknesses in the centre.

2. Rogers - Geveke. White's position is preferrable. The extra c-pawn, despite being trippled, is not that bad. Bishops pair is also helpful

3. Lukey - Lane. Intresting position. Generally I prefer to play white in this sort of position, but I think black equalised and have enough counter-chances

4. Sermek - Green +-
5. Reily - Zhao - don't see much compo for black's extra pawn

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:28 PM
I might be wrong, actually.
19... Bxd4
20 cd4 Qxd4
21 Rc7

might be unpleasant for black

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:31 PM
I don't understand Rogers's plan. Pawn c5 is too good to give up.
Can black take c3 pawn?

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:33 PM
Unless there is some tactics, I don't think it's a good move. 18.Nc2 seems safe enough.

Now b4 pawn is weaker, black can move e pawn or play d5 supporting the knight.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:36 PM
IMHO, black seems to be better (unless Rogers sees something I don't. which is quite likely:) )

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:37 PM
What is going on????

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:39 PM
Zhao decided d4 that taking d4 pawn is dangerous.
Now black is still slightly better, but Reily should be able to hold without many problems

gambitcrazy
17-01-2006, 02:46 PM
What is going on????

What on earth is up with Bxh6??! Its beyond my comprehension ... and why didnt Steadman reply with gxh6?

GC

Altecman
17-01-2006, 02:46 PM
I think Rogers is losing in his game, black is happy in his position... i dont think Rogers should of given up his c5 pawn

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 02:47 PM
What is going on????Bxh6 is just losing. It would therefore seem those moves cannot possibly be correct.

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 02:49 PM
I think Rogers is losing in his game, black is happy in his position... i dont think Rogers should of given up his c5 pawn16. Qc7 would have been interesting instead of Nxf5.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 02:54 PM
I think Rogers is losing in his game, black is happy in his position... i dont think Rogers should of given up his c5 pawn

Not losing yet, but black is better

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 03:07 PM
Wohl - Steadman and Rogers - Geveke seem to be stuck.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-01-2006, 03:29 PM
All games seem to be stuck

Altecman
17-01-2006, 03:44 PM
is there anything wrong with the web site or are they just moving really slow?

Altecman
17-01-2006, 03:45 PM
I dont understand Bxh6? isn't that move just tossing a piece?

Davidflude
17-01-2006, 03:53 PM
I suspect something is wrong with the moves being shown. Well we will just have to wait and see.

Axiom
17-01-2006, 05:56 PM
it appears its something so wrong, as to render the input of moves into a software program impossible

jase
17-01-2006, 06:03 PM
My impressions of the TOMA software and DGT Boards from running the Australian Championships in Brisbane are that everything appears well designed and functional, yet for reasons unexplained the software will occasionally lock up, and the boards and pieces themselves are beginning to suffer from wear.

Pieces will infrequently not be registered by the DGT equipment, which the TOMA software seems to be able to cope with. As noted above there is a manual input option to cover discrepancies between the position being read by the program and the avtual board position.

These problems appear consistent with those experienced by tournaments overseas. If officials are thin on the ground, it may become difficult to both maintain transmission manually and fulfil arbitering duties.

Garvinator
17-01-2006, 06:07 PM
it appears its something so wrong, as to render the input of moves into a software program impossible
what can happen and did happen in Brisbane a couple of times is that the software locks up and so transmitting isnt possible. The only way to fix it and get transmission going again is to shut down the software program (toma) and restart it.

Doing this in the middle of the game then means having to get all the moves from the scoresheets again. Combined with redoing all the settings is a time consuming process.

I would imagine that for Gary Bekker, not only is he trying to broadcast, also has many other duties to do that taking the time to retrieve the coverage is very difficult and not worth the trouble.

arosar
17-01-2006, 06:13 PM
Civin - Caoili, 0-1.

AR

Garvinator
17-01-2006, 06:16 PM
To add a bit more.

To maintain regular coverage, three things are required:

1) Broadband internet- dial up drops out too often.
2) A specific decent computer that is only used for the software and transmission
3) A dedicated operator whose role is to ensure transmission while play is happening.

Axiom
17-01-2006, 06:41 PM
thankyou jase and gg, i understand now

pax
17-01-2006, 07:00 PM
Civin - Caoili, 0-1.

AR

Big scalp!! *clappy smilies*

Garvinator
17-01-2006, 07:13 PM
These problems appear consistent with those experienced by tournaments overseas. If officials are thin on the ground, it may become difficult to both maintain transmission manually and fulfil arbitering duties.
To add a bit more to this, the licence costs are way out of proportion with the usability of the software and its reliability. There are currently 10 dgt acf boards plus I believe there are possibly another three I believe I could get my hands on if needed. Starting from stratch to get the licence to broadcast all 13 boards, the total cost for the software is over $A1000, 920 euro including VAT to be exact. This is just the software licence cost and doesnt include the cost of the 13 dgt boards.

This is a ridiculously high cost that is totally out of proportion for its reliability and functionality. The software drops out, freezes up and requires alot of manual intervention (to the point of needing someone to specifically watch it and know how to manually make changes).

Surely another company could design a better and cheaper product that the toma software. It cant be that difficult for people with experience in this area.

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 07:38 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.17"]
[Round "3"]
[White "GM Rogers, Ian"]
[Black "FM Geveke, Michael"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f6 8. Nf3 Nc6 9. Qg3 Qf7 10. Bb5 Nge7 11. dxc5 O-O 12. O-O Nf5 13. Qf4 Nce7 14. exf6 gxf6 15. Nd4 Kh8 16. Nxf5 Nxf5 17. f3 Qe7 18. a4 Qxc5+ 19. Kh1 Qxc3 20. Ba3 e5 21. Qc1 Rg8 22. Bb2 Qc5 23. f4 d4 24. fxe5 Qd5 25. Qd2 Ne3 26. Rf2 Bh3 27. Rg1 fxe5 28. Bf1 Raf8 29. c4 Qe4 30. Rxf8 Rxf8 31. Bd3 Qc6 32. Qe2 Rg8 0-1

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 07:39 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.17"]
[Round "3"]
[White "IM Wohl, Alex"]
[Black "Steadman, Michael"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 c5 3. g3 Nc6 4. c3 Nf6 5. Bg2 d5 6. d3 Be7 7. Nd2 b5 8. Ngf3 a5 9. O-O b4 10. c4 d4 11. e5 Nd7 12. h4 Qc7 13. Re1 Bb7 14. Nf1 h6 15. N1h2 O-O-O 16. Ng4 Rde8 17. h5 a4 18. Bf4 Qb6 19. Nd2 Bd8 20. Nf3 Bc7 21. Qd2 Ne7 22. Nfh2 g5 23. hxg6 Nxg6 24. Bxh6 Ndxe5 25. Nxe5 Nxe5 26. Bg7 Bxg2 27. Bxh8 Rxh8 28. Rxe5 Bxe5 29. Kxg2 Qc6+ 30. Nf3 Rg8 31. Re1 Bc7 32. Qh6 Kb7 33. Qh7 Qe8 34. Qh5 Kb6 35. Ng5 Rf8 36. Kg1 e5 37. Qh6+ Kb7 38. Ne4 Qe7 39. Nf6 Rd8 40. Qh1+ Kb8 41. Qc6 Rd6 42. Qb5+ Kc8 43. Nd5 1-0

Lucena
17-01-2006, 07:52 PM
Yes, it must be on g3. We now see the thematic KIA-style g3/h4 pawn formation.

The thing with Wohl is that he is such an original and offbeat player in the opening that people could really credit him playing a move like 3.g4. With anyone else it would just be too obvious the board was wrong.

Quite frankly when I saw g4 on the board I didn't even give it a second thought! :oops: Admittedly it doesn't make sense later on.

Phil Bourke
17-01-2006, 07:52 PM
Any chance you have the moves for Lukey v Lane?

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 08:16 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.17"]
[Round "3"]
[White "FM Lukey, Stephen"]
[Black "IM Lane, Gary"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 f5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 Qe8 8. d5 a5 9. Nd4 Na6 10. Rb1 Nc5 11. b3 Bd7 12. a3 c6 13. b4 axb4 14. axb4 Nce4 15. Nxe4 Nxe4 16. Bb2 Qf7 17. Qd3 Ra4 18. dxc6 bxc6 19. Nc2 Bxb2 20. Rxb2 Be6 21. Ne3 c5 22. b5 Bxc4 23. Qc2 Bxb5 24. Rxb5 Ra2 25. Rb2 Rfa8 26. Rfb1 Rxb2 27. Qxb2 Ra2 28. Qb8+ Kg7 29. Bxe4 fxe4 30. Rb2 Ra1+ 31. Kg2 Re1 32. Rd2 Rxe2 33. Qb2+ 1-0

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 08:28 PM
To add a bit more to this, the licence costs are way out of proportion with the usability of the software and its reliability. There are currently 10 dgt acf boards plus I believe there are possibly another three I believe I could get my hands on if needed. Starting from stratch to get the licence to broadcast all 13 boards, the total cost for the software is over $A1000, 920 euro including VAT to be exact. This is just the software licence cost and doesnt include the cost of the 13 dgt boards.

This is a ridiculously high cost that is totally out of proportion for its reliability and functionality. The software drops out, freezes up and requires alot of manual intervention (to the point of needing someone to specifically watch it and know how to manually make changes).

Surely another company could design a better and cheaper product that the toma software. It cant be that difficult for people with experience in this area.There has been upgrades to the TOMA software as late as July 2005. One would hope that those responsible for running it have downloaded the latest version from the DGT website.

I thought there was a Russian company that had written software that handled the DGT boards for internet presentation but I cannot find it mentioned on the web.

Altecman
17-01-2006, 08:35 PM
This tourney is really ful of upsets!!

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 08:46 PM
This tourney is really ful of upsets!!There is no need to post the same comment in multiple threads.

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 08:51 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.17"]
[Round "3"]
[White "FM Reilly, Tim"]
[Black "IM Zhao, Zong Yuan"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bg5 Ne4 5. Bh4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 dxc4 7. e3 Be6 8. Rb1 Nd7 9. Rxb7 Bg7 10. Nf3 O-O 11. Be2 Nb6 12. Bg3 c5 13. O-O Bd5 14. Rc7 cxd4 15. exd4 e5 16. Rc5 exd4 17. Nxd4 Re8 18. Bf3 Bxf3 19. Qxf3 Rc8 20. Rxc8 Qxc8 21. Nb5 Qd7 22. Nd6 Re6 23. Ne4 Qd5 0-1

pax
17-01-2006, 09:43 PM
Lakner continues his domination of Canfell (with white this time).. Go the Sandgropers!

Phil Bourke
17-01-2006, 10:11 PM
Many thanks Bill

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2006, 10:23 PM
Lukey-Lane is showing as 1-0 not drawn on the round 3 results list so something has gone wrong somewhere in the recording of the result for this game.

Rogers-Geveke: I thought when Rogers played Bb2 that he was setting up a serious attack down the long diagonal but actually it was White who ended up getting demolished in no uncertain fashion. Frankly I've been getting a tad bored with how 7...f5 commits Black to either a queen swap or dark square holes on the kingside. I shall be investigating this 7...f6 business closely.

Frank Walker
17-01-2006, 10:28 PM
A bit harsh gletzo, the guys got an opinion....
dont fret *smile (wondering what happened to smilies)*

pax
17-01-2006, 10:30 PM
Lukey-Lane is showing as 1-0 not drawn on the round 3 results list so something has gone wrong somewhere in the recording of the result for this game.

It's definitely a win for white when you see the final position.

Careth
17-01-2006, 10:36 PM
Hey pax, Jay wasnt the only sandgroper to defeat their higher rated opponent! Dennis Holland (1715) defeated French Jerome Lachaux(2102 FIDE and ACF)! Also, WA's lowest rated representative Blair Slack-Smith(1290) came through for a draw with Yohan Vosloo(1584). Unfortunately Yita didnt cut the mustard with Charles Zworestine:-(

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 11:12 PM
Lukey-Lane is showing as 1-0 not drawn on the round 3 results list so something has gone wrong somewhere in the recording of the result for this game.I've corrected the result in the games score.

Bill Gletsos
17-01-2006, 11:14 PM
A bit harsh gletzo, the guys got an opinion....
dont fret *smile (wondering what happened to smilies)*No frankie a bit harsh would have been to delete it. There is no need for him to post the same thing in multiple threads, especilaly in threads that are both dedicated to the same event.

Davidflude
17-01-2006, 11:48 PM
This round it was Derek who defeated a much higher rated opponent.

Davidflude
18-01-2006, 12:15 AM
The captain of my team in the Champions League claims that a line called the Tait Variation refutes the Winawer. Pretty strong stuff but he had a game published in Chess Mail where black got crushed without any play. Of course what works in correspondence often too hard to play over the board.

I will try and dig out a copy of the game but it will take time.

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 12:23 AM
The captain of my team in the Champions League claims that a line called the Tait Variation refutes the Winawer. Pretty strong stuff but he had a game published in Chess Mail where black got crushed without any play. Of course what works in correspondence often too hard to play over the board.

I will try and dig out a copy of the game but it will take time.
Google does it again I think.

Is this the article:

http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/04.txt

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2006, 12:59 AM
The captain of my team in the Champions League claims that a line called the Tait Variation refutes the Winawer. Pretty strong stuff but he had a game published in Chess Mail where black got crushed without any play. Of course what works in correspondence often too hard to play over the board.

I will try and dig out a copy of the game but it will take time.

Tait Variation is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 Bd7 12.Qd3 dxc3 13.Rb1 0-0-0 14.h4 Nf5 15.h5 d4 16.Rg1.

A line starting on moves 14-16 after Black has had numerous other options cannot possibly refute the whole Winawer however much damage it may or may not eventually do to the "main line".

arosar
18-01-2006, 07:08 AM
Big scalp!! *clappy smilies*

You cannot imagine how happy she was. Of course, as she was wearing my lucky jumper I have to claim some credit.

AR

pax
18-01-2006, 07:48 AM
The Rd 3 media release suggested that the "no agreed draws before move 30" policy may have contributed to Rogers' defeat. Otherwise, Ian may have offered a draw just as it was starting to go bad - and it would have taken a brave FM to turn it down..

arosar
18-01-2006, 09:34 AM
The Corsican Rule is applied to the top 10 boards. There is a note on their boards reminding players of this. But the rest of the field are strongly encouraged to adopt it as well. I must say, even I am mindful of this rule in my games. It ought to be adopted widely.

AR

Davidflude
18-01-2006, 09:51 AM
Google does it again I think.

Is this the article:

http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/04.txt


Thank you very much, I had not seen these articles which are fascinating. As has been pointed out and inferred in my original posting the Tait variation only destroys one variation of the winawer at best and there are lots of other ideas black can try. Nevertheless the classical, Burn and Rubenstein variations seem to have become more popular over recent years and the Winawer less popular.
Maybe it is just fashion.

Rincewind
18-01-2006, 09:55 AM
The Corsican Rule is applied to the top 10 boards. There is a note on their boards reminding players of this. But the rest of the field are strongly encouraged to adopt it as well. I must say, even I am mindful of this rule in my games. It ought to be adopted widely.

Isn't Corsican Rules when no agreed draws are allowed at all. No draw by agreement before move 30 (if that is what is being applied) would be a much watered down version of that.

eclectic
18-01-2006, 09:58 AM
Isn't Corsican Rules when no agreed draws are allowed at all. No draw by agreement before move 30 (if that is what is being applied) would be a much watered down version of that.

wouldn't you just love it if you were needing a draw for the tournament title or for a norm or for a title only to have that rule shoved in your face?

arosar
18-01-2006, 10:01 AM
Well, my understanding is that Corsican Rules (plural) is actually a whole host of rules, whereas Corsican Rule (singular) is specifically "no agreed draws". Of course, I could be wrong, but I just call it the Corsican Rule (singular) anyway.

Anyway, photos from round 3 are up: http://www.flickr.com/photos/closetgrandmaster/

And Bill mate, lady in green shirt.

AR

Davidflude
18-01-2006, 11:06 AM
One infamous example occured in a World Junior where two USA girls played a totally preposterous series of moves and the game ended in stalemate with all
sixtryfour men still on the board. The DOP did not have the bottle to double default them.

Rincewind
18-01-2006, 11:16 AM
One infamous example occured in a World Junior where two USA girls played a totally preposterous series of moves and the game ended in stalemate with all
sixtryfour men still on the board. The DOP did not have the bottle to double default them.

I remember a similar game between two swedish (?) juniors a while ago too.

gambitcrazy
18-01-2006, 12:13 PM
They must be using the same board as Wohl - Steadman were .. once again it showed g4 instead of g3! But it was fixed very quickly this time .. is there something wrong with that board? Or maybe its just the software

GC

Phil Bourke
18-01-2006, 12:30 PM
All this tournament is doing is provide a good advertisement for the merit of the MonRei systems : )
It looks as though Geveke - Smerdon is frozen after White's 3rd move!

gambitcrazy
18-01-2006, 12:34 PM
All this tournament is doing is provide a good advertisement for the merit of the MonRei systems : )
It looks as though Geveke - Smerdon is frozen after White's 3rd move!


There hasnt been any moves in any games for a while ... its frozen again

GC

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2006, 12:37 PM
The Rd 3 media release suggested that the "no agreed draws before move 30" policy may have contributed to Rogers' defeat. Otherwise, Ian may have offered a draw just as it was starting to go bad

An outrageous suggestion by the media release. Ian Rogers would never offer a draw on move 2!

Seriously can anyone explain the merit of 11.dxc5 in that game? I've always thought White needs very strong reasons to accept the tripled pawns in the Winawer. Sometimes you do it because you follow it up with c4 and rip Black's centre apart, or sometimes it clamps Black and Black never gets the pawn back, and sometimes there are other reasons, but in this game I don't see it.

Davidflude
18-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Does the Minrei system enable you to show the games live on the Internet.

If so then it is a far better and more flexible system than the DGT boards plus software approach.

Phil Bourke
18-01-2006, 12:47 PM
Does the Minrei system enable you to show the games live on the Internet.

If so then it is a far better and more flexible system than the DGT boards plus software approach.

That and a whole lot more, according to them ; )
http://www.monroi.com/
Works in conjuntion with the Professional Tournament Manager which reads as though it takes the place of the DOP !
Wonder how it would rule on disputes LOL
Of course, just like the Toma DGT boards, it would need testing before it could be said to be a better idea.
Though, if it was reasonably priced, it could be a requirement for every competitor to have his own Personal Chess Assistant, leaving the organisers just the expense of having the Tournament Manager.

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 12:50 PM
An outrageous suggestion by the media release. Ian Rogers would never offer a draw on move 2!

Seriously can anyone explain the merit of 11.dxc5 in that game? I've always thought White needs very strong reasons to accept the tripled pawns in the Winawer. Sometimes you do it because you follow it up with c4 and rip Black's centre apart, or sometimes it clamps Black and Black never gets the pawn back, and sometimes there are other reasons, but in this game I don't see it.Yes, Fritz preferred other moves instead of 11. dxc5 and Fritz certainly didnt like 17. f3 when its evalution went from being equal to a slight plus for Black.

Fritz preferred 16. Qc7 instead of Nxf5.

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2006, 12:54 PM
Wow, another of my pets gets a run. Zhao-Lukey, French Closed Tarrasch.

I didn't realise the time control was so slow. I guess the games starting earlier (our time) because of time zone differences fooled me but I see on the website that it is G100/+1 minute, ie Aus Champs time control with 10 extra minutes.

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 12:59 PM
All this tournament is doing is provide a good advertisement for the merit of the MonRei systems : )
It looks as though Geveke - Smerdon is frozen after White's 3rd move!
ok this is ridiculous. Havent really been following the games online since day one, but this is silly.

As I am in Brisbane I have no idea what is going on, but what ever it is, it is just not good enough.

When the program freezes on move 3, it is rather easy to restart it and enter the moves again manually. I dont know what is going on.

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 01:00 PM
Wow, another of my pets gets a run. Zhao-Lukey, French Closed Tarrasch.

I didn't realise the time control was so slow. I guess the games starting earlier (our time) because of time zone differences fooled me but I see on the website that it is G100/+1 minute, ie Aus Champs time control with 10 extra minutes.
you wouldnt have noticed the move rate cause it keeps dropping out ; )

Phil Bourke
18-01-2006, 01:20 PM
GG, I think it may be a classic example of technology being sold as simple to use, and the buyers believing it. Hence, nobody on hand that understands or knows how to get around the little problems this software is having.
Oh, what we would give to have a few of the Brissie people in Queenstown!

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2006, 01:31 PM
you wouldnt have noticed the move rate cause it keeps dropping out ; )

Indeed. Zhao-Lukey now appears to have gone into multiple universe mode. The time is the same as it was on move seven, the board is on move nine and the bar at the bottom is on move eleven.

For the record Watson reckons Zhao's 8.a3 is harmless, although 9.b3 is not discussed.

Igor_Goldenberg
18-01-2006, 01:36 PM
An outrageous suggestion by the media release. Ian Rogers would never offer a draw on move 2!

Seriously can anyone explain the merit of 11.dxc5 in that game? I've always thought White needs very strong reasons to accept the tripled pawns in the Winawer. Sometimes you do it because you follow it up with c4 and rip Black's centre apart, or sometimes it clamps Black and Black never gets the pawn back, and sometimes there are other reasons, but in this game I don't see it.

11.dc5 by itself is not bad. The power of those trippled pawns is often underestimated (as well as exagurated:) ). I did not analyze game is details, but only Rogers can explain why he went on to knights exchange and did not try to protect c5 pawn.

And you are right, c4 is usually quite good in this sort of position.

Rincewind
18-01-2006, 01:43 PM
Indeed. Zhao-Lukey now appears to have gone into multiple universe mode.

Is the technical term "multiverse"?

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 01:46 PM
GG, I think it may be a classic example of technology being sold as simple to use, and the buyers believing it. Hence, nobody on hand that understands or knows how to get around the little problems this software is having.
Oh, what we would give to have a few of the Brissie people in Queenstown!
One of the two Brisbane ppl for the dgt technology is on hand. IA Gary Bekker is there as an arbiter as is responsible for making sure the boards run correctly.

With one person doing the dgt board transmission and also being an arbiter, the organisers of the tournament can place other demands on the arbiter. This means that his/her time is divided between many tasks and something suffers.

In this situation, it is always that outside broadcasting that suffers, generally because the organisers havent taken it seriously to make sure it works and stays working during the tournament.

Brisbane was fortunate to have two dgt operators and one of them wasnt a formal arbiter, which helped to make sure it worked as much as it could. Lead in time was a problem which meant problems had to be fixed as they came up. Also the hacking attack made life very difficult for transmitting through the website after the attack.

Gary and I did come up with a solution in Brisbane where a ftp program would upload the game information every 5 minutes or so after the hacking attack.

I do wonder why that isnt happening here to at least keep something going.

jase
18-01-2006, 02:05 PM
The ftp uploading program Gary attached was terrific - even when the TOMA software carked it the program would still retrieve the data and upload it to our website.

I am more sympathetic towards officials of these tournament now that I have experienced the problems myself, but the outcomes remain inadequate.

I dont want to add to the headaches, but it would be great to have a chat window at the web page to discuss games rather than having to post here.

When I follow games on Playchess or ICC there is kibitzing of each game being broadcast.

Igor_Goldenberg
18-01-2006, 02:10 PM
I have no idea about the quality, but could it be tried as an alternative?

http://www.enpassant.dk/chess/palview/palive/

pax
18-01-2006, 02:21 PM
I have no idea about the quality, but could it be tried as an alternative?

http://www.enpassant.dk/chess/palview/palive/

If you have PGN and just need to upload and display, there are hundred of options which cost very little or nothing.

Presumably with the DGT boards you need the TOMA software to turn the digital output from the boards into PGN?

Spiny Norman
18-01-2006, 03:35 PM
I notice that the TOMA software documentation allows for "up to 8" boards (COM1 thru COM8). How is this implemented in practice on the controller PC ... are there 8 physical COM ports, each with a unique IRQ and memory address ... or is it a kludge? If the latter, perhaps some of the broadcast/reliability problems are caused by interrupt conflicts in the PC?

Garvinator
18-01-2006, 04:03 PM
I notice that the TOMA software documentation allows for "up to 8" boards (COM1 thru COM8). How is this implemented in practice on the controller PC ... are there 8 physical COM ports, each with a unique IRQ and memory address ... or is it a kludge? If the latter, perhaps some of the broadcast/reliability problems are caused by interrupt conflicts in the PC?
The com settings you refer to do not apply to how many boards you can connect up.

I take it you have gone to Settings > COM settings > Multi-Board (Bus Cabling) and seen COM 1, COM 2, COM 3 etc.

If you continue down Settings > COM settings > Single Board, you will see the same COM 1, COM 2 etc.

Those settings are just telling TOMA where the adapter is connected into your computer.

A toma software licence is required to run more than one board. The reason there has been a focus on eight boards is that is the number of boards that Gary's licence is for. So Gary or I hook up eight boards. TOMA cracks the shits if you try and connect nine boards together with an eight board licence.

Also the more boards that are connected up together, the better the internet connection is required. Therefore broadband is definetely required.

arosar
18-01-2006, 04:19 PM
Just 5 mins ago, Dive - Song, Raymond, 0-1

Pics just moments after coming up!

AR

jase
18-01-2006, 04:26 PM
Thanks Amiel.

Great result for Ray.

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:32 PM
Nokes 0.5 - 0.5 sermek
Susilodinata 0.5 - 0.5 Froehlich
Sutton 0 - 1 Wohl
Zhao 1 - 0 Lukey
Geveke 0 - 1 Smerdon

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:33 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "FM Nokes, Roger"]
[Black "GM Sermek, Drazen"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd6 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 a6 6. g3 Bg4 7. Bg2 e6 8. O-O Be7 9. h3 Bxf3 10. Bxf3 c6 11. Ne4 Nxe4 12. Bxe4 Nd7 13. Bf4 Qb4 14. Qd2 Qxd2 15. Bxd2 Nf6 16. Bg2 O-O-O 17. c3 Nd5 18. Rad1 Bf6 19. Rfe1 Rd7 20. h4 h6 21. h5 Rhd8 22. Bc1 Nb6 23. Bf3 Na4 24. Be4 c5 25. Bc2 b5 26. dxc5 Nxc5 27. Rxd7 Rxd7 28. Kf1 Nd3 29. Bxd3 Rxd3 30. g4 Kc7 1/2-1/2

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:34 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Susilodinata, Andrean"]
[Black "IM Froehlich, Peter"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c4 d6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nf6 6. Nc3 b6 7. Bd3 Bb7 8. O-O e6 9. f4 Nbd7 10. Nb3 Qc7 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Be3 O-O 13. g4 d5 14. cxd5 exd5 15. e5 Ne4 16. Rac1 Ndc5 17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Bb1 Rad8 19. Nxc5 Bxc5 20. Bxc5 bxc5 21. Bxe4 Bxe4 22. Qxe4 Qb6 23. Qg2 Rd4 24. Rcd1 Rfd8 25. Rxd4 cxd4 26. Rd1 d3+ 27. Qf2 Qe6 28. Qf3 Qb6+ 29. Qf2 Qe6 30. Qf3 Qxa2 31. Rd2 Qc4 32. Kg2 h6 33. f5 Qd4 34. Kh3 h5 35. gxh5 Qxe5 36. Rxd3 Rxd3 37. Qxd3 Qxb2 38. Qxa6 Qc3+ 39. Kg4 Qd4+ 40. Kf3 Qd5+ 41. Kf4 Qd2+ 42. Kf3 Qxh2 43. Qa8+ Kh7 44. Kg4 Qg1+ 45. Kf4 Qc1+ 46. Kg4 f6 47. Qf3 Qg5+ 48. Kh3 Kh6 49. Qg4 Qxh5+ 50. Kg3 Qg5 51. Kf3 Qxg4+ 52. Kxg4 Kh7 53. Kh5 Kh8 54. Kh4 Kg8 55. Kg4 Kf8 56. Kf4 Ke7 57. Ke4 Ke8 58. Ke3 Kd8 59. Kd4 Kd7 60. Kd5 Kd8 61. Kd4 Ke8 62. Ke3 Kf8 63. Kf4 Ke7 64. Ke4 Kd7 65. Kd5 Ke8 66. Ke4 Ke7 67. Ke3 Kd7 68. Kd3 Ke7 69. Ke4 Kf8 70. Kf4 Kg8 71. Kg4 Kf7 72. Kf4 Kf8 73. Kf3 Ke7 74. Ke4 Kd8 75. Kd4 Kc8 76. Kc4 Kc7 77. Kc5 Kd7 78. Kd5 Ke8 79. Ke4 Ke7 80. Ke3 Kd7 81. Kd3 Kc7 82. Kc3 Kb7 83. Kb3 Kb8 84. Kb4 Kc8 85. Kc4 Kd8 86. Kd4 Ke7 87. Ke4 Kf7 88. Kf4 g5+ 89. fxg6+ Kxg6 1/2-1/2

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:34 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "FM Sutton, Richard"]
[Black "IM Wohl, Alex"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 O-O 5. Nf3 d6 6. Qc2 c5 7. Be2 Nc6 8. O-O Qe7 9. Bd2 b6 10. a3 Bxc3 11. Bxc3 Bb7 12. Rfd1 Rac8 13. b3 Rfd8 14. Rac1 cxd4 15. Nxd4 Nxd4 16. Rxd4 e5 17. Rdd1 Ne4 18. Be1 d5 19. f3 Nd6 20. Bb4 Qg5 21. Qd2 Nf5 22. f4 exf4 23. exf4 Qf6 24. c5 a5 25. Bc3 d4 26. Bb2 bxc5 27. Bg4 Qg6 28. Bxf5 Qxf5 29. Qxa5 Bxg2 30. Rxd4 Rxd4 31. Bxd4 Bb7 32. Rxc5 Qg4+ 33. Kf1 Qd1+ 0-1

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:35 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "IM Zhao, Zong Yuan"]
[Black "FM Lukey, Stephen"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. c3 c5 6. f4 Nc6 7. Ndf3 Qb6 8. a3 a5 9. b3 Be7 10. h4 O-O 11. Bd3 f5 12. Ne2 Qc7 13. g4 cxd4 14. cxd4 Nb6 15. Rg1 Bd7 16. Kf2 Kh8 17. h5 Nd8 18. a4 Nf7 19. gxf5 exf5 20. Ba3 Bxa3 21. Rxa3 Nh6 22. Qd2 Be8 23. Ng3 Nc8 24. Qc1 Bc6 25. Qc5 Ne7 26. Ra2 Rac8 27. Rc2 Qd8 28. Qd6 Qe8 29. Ng5 Nf7 30. Nxf7+ Qxf7 31. Kf3 Rfd8 32. Qa3 Bd7 33. Rxc8 Rxc8 34. Rc1 Nc6 35. Ke3 g5 36. hxg6 Qxg6 37. Ne2 Qh6 38. Qa1 Qh3+ 39. Kd2 Rg8 40. Rg1 Rg2 41. Rxg2 Qxg2 42. Qc3 h5 43. Qc5 Kg7 44. Qd6 Be8 45. Qf6+ Kg8 46. Kc3 Qg6 47. Qxf5 Qxf5 48. Bxf5 Ne7 49. Be6+ Bf7 50. Bh3 Bg6 51. b4 b6 52. bxa5 bxa5 53. Kd2 Bf5 54. Bg2 h4 55. Nc3 h3 56. Bf3 Be6 57. Ke1 Nf5 58. Ne2 Kg7 59. Kf2 Kg6 60. Bh1 Kh5 61. Ng3+ Kg4 62. Nxf5 Kxf5 63. Kg3 h2 64. Bf3 Bf7 65. Bg2 Bg8 66. Bh3+ Ke4 67. Kxh2 Kxf4 68. e6 Ke3 69. Kg3 Kxd4 70. Kf2 Kc3 71. e7 Bf7 72. Bd7 d4 73. e8=Q Bxe8 74. Bxe8 d3 75. Ke3 Kc2 76. Kd4 d2 77. Bh5 1-0

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2006, 07:36 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "FM Geveke, Michael"]
[Black "IM Smerdon, David"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. g3 c5 3. d5 e6 4. c4 exd5 5. cxd5 g6 6. Nc3 d6 7. Bg2 Bg7 8. Nf3
O-O 9. Nd2 a6 10. a4 Nbd7 11. Nc4 Nb6 12. Na3 Bd7 13. O-O Re8 14. Qb3 Nxa4 15. Nxa4 b5 16. Nc3 b4 17. Nc4 bxc3 18. Nxd6 Rb8 19. Qc2 cxb2 20. Bxb2 Rxb2 21. Qxb2 Ne4 22. Qxg7+ Kxg7 23. Nxe4 Bb5 24. Rfc1 Qxd5 25. Nf6 Qd6 26. Nxe8+ Bxe8 27. Ra2 Bb5 28. Rac2 c4 29. e3 h5 30. h4 Qe5 31. Kh2 g5 32. f4 Qxe3 33. fxg5 a5 34. Rf1 Qd3 35. Rcf2 Qd7 36. Bf3 c3 37. Rd1 Qf5 38. Rd5 Qc8 39. Bxh5 c2 40. Rxf7+ Kg8 41. Rf6 Be8 42. Bxe8 c1=Q 43. Bf7+ Kg7 44. Rdf5 Q8c2+ 45. Rf2 Qe4 46. R6f3 Qeb1 47. Kh3 Qh1+ 48. Kg4 Qe4+ 0-1

arosar
18-01-2006, 07:38 PM
[Event "Queenstown Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown"]
[Date "2006.01.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Susilodinata, Andrean"]
[Black "IM Froehlich, Peter"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]


Finally, a draw! I have a photo of this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/closetgrandmaster/88149560/

And the rest of round 4 are now available too.

AR

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2006, 11:02 PM
Looks like in Zhao-Lukey 35...g5 was a plan that was never going to work. I found Zhao's play early in this game throwing pawns up the board all over the place entertaining.

In Sutton-Wohl 24.c5 was bad; 24.cxd5 instead looks OK (even very good for White if Black responds incorrectly).

The end of Geveke-Smerdon with two black queens against white's rooks, bishop and pawns is amusing.

Susilodonta-Froehlich: Black gets a dead drawn ending a pawn up and spends thirty-seven moves making sure White's technique is up to scratch. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

And speaking of zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, looks like Sermek wanted a half-point bye today.

The_Wise_Man
18-01-2006, 11:07 PM
Susilodonta-Froehlich: Black gets a dead drawn ending a pawn up and spends thirty-seven moves making sure White's technique is up to scratch. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


Must have wanted to get their time up on the show boards!

Wise

ps ZYZ's king walk was also very entertaining...

arosar
19-01-2006, 06:26 AM
Susilodonta-Froehlich: Black gets a dead drawn ending a pawn up and spends thirty-seven moves making sure White's technique is up to scratch. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I had a rather satisfying moment yesterday. As Froehlich stood over our board, I was playing Wendy Smith, I delivered the winning move which provoked an immediate resignation.

Uumm...Mm!

AR

Ian_Rogers
19-01-2006, 09:10 AM
Re the Rogers-Geveke game and comments:

dxc5 is the main line in this variation, although usually played a move earlier as in an old Smyslov-Botvinnik game.
Probably exf6 was too risky- Re1 was simple and good.
f3 was an error - c6! was better.
Later White should have settled for an endgame with Qb4 instead of Qc1 - the whole idea of trying to win on the long diagonal with f4 was suicidal.

Ian

P.S. I am surprised to hear there have been problems with the DGT board transmissions. Gary Bekker's only jobs here are the DGT boards and the web page - he doesn't have to worry about arbiting work - and he had thought everything was running smoothly yesterday.

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 10:49 AM
An on-going problem is that of spectators crowding around top boards during tournaments. One simple solution is to set up some form of barrier between the players and the spectators. This approach is shown in one of the tournament photos showed spectators watching the top boards from behind a barrier but close to the players. At Box Hill we have used a refinement to the DGT system which allowed the spectators to watch the games live but without causing congestion around the players.

PC's were set up in the analysis room showing the games live. Spectators could watch the games and comment on the games at will as they were not in the tournament hall. This of course had the added advantage of encouraging player's whose games were completed to leave the tournament hall.

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 11:08 AM
Re the Rogers-Geveke game and comments:

dxc5 is the main line in this variation, although usually played a move earlier as in an old Smyslov-Botvinnik game.
Probably exf6 was too risky- Re1 was simple and good.
f3 was an error - c6! was better.
Later White should have settled for an endgame with Qb4 instead of Qc1 - the whole idea of trying to win on the long diagonal with f4 was suicidal.

Ian



What about swapping knights?

pax
19-01-2006, 12:42 PM
Rd 3 games up to board 30 now on http://queenstown.paxmans.net/

I notice in the current Smerdon-Zhao game, that Smerdon plays the interesting 9.Nbd2 in the gambit variation of the French advance. I see he has played it at least a couple of times before with success. Anyone know anything about this variation?

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 12:59 PM
Rd 3 games up to board 30 now on http://queenstown.paxmans.net/

I notice in the current Smerdon-Zhao game, that Smerdon plays the interesting 9.Nbd2 in the gambit variation of the French advance. I see he has played it at least a couple of times before with success. Anyone know anything about this variation?

This is the Jiri Nun gambit dealt with from P156 of "Four Gambits to beat the French" by Tim Harding. There is very little theory and it is likely that there are
improvements for either side.

The Smurf is going for it.

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2006, 12:59 PM
Rd 3 games up to board 30 now on http://queenstown.paxmans.net/

I notice in the current Smerdon-Zhao game, that Smerdon plays the interesting 9.Nbd2 in the gambit variation of the French advance. I see he has played it at least a couple of times before with success. Anyone know anything about this variation?

Watson alleges it is "tricky but insufficient" but only gives 9...Nc6 and 9...Nxf3+ as replies not Zhao's 9...Bc5. The latter seems to be very obscure - chessbase only has four games with it (all wins to black) and none of them are high-rated.

Smerdon has played this line before vs West, Ly and Steadman winning all three. Humphrey-Sedina at Mt Buller (drawn) also featured this line. So I expect that 9...Bc5 is Zhao's preparation for this game.

pax
19-01-2006, 01:10 PM
This is the Jiri Nun gambit dealt with from P156 of "Four Gambits to beat the French" by Tim Harding. There is very little theory and it is likely that there are
improvements for either side.

The Smurf is going for it.

I noticed a lot of Jiri Nun in Chessbase. Is he a correspondence player? He doesn't seem to have a FIDE rating..

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2006, 01:11 PM
P.S. I am surprised to hear there have been problems with the DGT board transmissions. Gary Bekker's only jobs here are the DGT boards and the web page - he doesn't have to worry about arbiting work - and he had thought everything was running smoothly yesterday.

I have to assume from this that they do not have a screen set up and actually connected to the internet where they can check what is actually being beamed out to the world.

More problems today - Solomon-Noakes clock not going.

pax
19-01-2006, 01:12 PM
Smerdon plays 12.Ng5, preparing a sac on f7!

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 01:16 PM
I noticed a lot of Jiri Nun in Chessbase. Is he a correspondence player? He doesn't seem to have a FIDE rating..

Jiri Nun is a czech master not to be confused with Joseph Nun who is a fearsomely strong correspondence player.

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 01:20 PM
Smerdon plays 12.Ng5, preparing a sac on f7!

This also cuts down black options. Preventing 0-0-0 and threatening Rb1 followed by an invasion on the b file. Why do players not consolidate after winning one pawn. I have won many games in fixed openings tournaments where my opponents got greedy.

Vlad
19-01-2006, 01:28 PM
This also cuts down black options. Preventing 0-0-0 and threatening Rb1 followed by an invasion on the b file. Why do players not consolidate after winning one pawn. I have won many games in fixed openings tournaments where my opponents got greedy.

What would you propose instead of 11...Qb4 Black did not seem to have any other options. Once they took on d4 they prettu much had to take on b4..

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 01:38 PM
Rd 3 games up to board 30 now on http://queenstown.paxmans.net/



That's great!!! Where did you get them from?

pax
19-01-2006, 01:42 PM
That's great!!! Where did you get them from?

From the official site. They add more games to the PGN intermittently. It looks like the top 30-40 boards is as much as we will see though, I suspect their volunteers are a bit stretched.

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 01:43 PM
How should the Smurf continue after Nh6?

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 01:44 PM
A few moves ago West looked to have great compensation for the pawn. Now I expect him to get ground.

Vlad
19-01-2006, 01:45 PM
How should the Smurf continue after Nh6?

Presumably you do not like Bh7?:)

Phil Bourke
19-01-2006, 01:45 PM
I think ...Nh6 is the finite answer for Zhao in this position, I can't find any way for White to continue his attack. Smurf is going to have to do some more homework on this gambit.

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 01:48 PM
From the official site. They add more games to the PGN intermittently. It looks like the top 30-40 boards is as much as we will see though, I suspect their volunteers are a bit stretched.

I looked at few pgn files, they had only top five games

Vlad
19-01-2006, 01:48 PM
A few moves ago West looked to have great compensation for the pawn. Now I expect him to get ground.

That is funny.. This is the exact moment when I thought that he had a compensation, while I did not think before.:)

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 01:49 PM
I think ...Nh6 is the finite answer for Zhao in this position, I can't find any way for White to continue his attack. Smurf is going to have to do some more homework on this gambit.

Nxh7 (after Nh6) looks good enough for me (even though black should be able to hold). I'd feel uncomfortable with black in this position (especially agaisnt Smerdon)

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 01:55 PM
Sermek - West. Few moves ago I thought black does not have much for a pawn. I think now black is at least equal.

Drummond - Chandler. Personally do not like 12.d4, I'd rather swap on e4 or kept tension in the centre (unless there is some tactics that I usually miss). I think black has equal chances now.

Solomon - Nokes. If it wasn't for stupid knight on f7, I'd prefer black. White did not achive anything in the opening. However, if white manages e4 and activate dark-square bishop, he'd have a good position.

Wohl - Garbett. Intresting, hard to judge. I'd say chances for both.

pax
19-01-2006, 01:55 PM
Presumably you do not like Bh7?:)

Bh7 Be7 looks excellent for black

Phil Bourke
19-01-2006, 01:57 PM
Ah, but ; )
That Bxh7 does open up some more avenues.
Best I can see is 14 ...Be7

pax
19-01-2006, 01:57 PM
Nxh7 (after Nh6) looks good enough for me (even though black should be able to hold). I'd feel uncomfortable with black in this position (especially agaisnt Smerdon)

Nh7 looks better, but Qd4 looks a good reply...

Vlad
19-01-2006, 01:59 PM
Nxh7 (after Nh6) looks good enough for me (even though black should be able to hold). I'd feel uncomfortable with black in this position (especially agaisnt Smerdon)

after Nh7 black plays Bb5 and it looks to me that white is in trouble. After exchange not only knight is on but also Bd4 is the threat.

Phil Bourke
19-01-2006, 01:59 PM
Nxh7 (after Nh6) looks good enough for me (even though black should be able to hold). I'd feel uncomfortable with black in this position (especially agaisnt Smerdon)

I thought that ....Qd4 would do against Nxh7.

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:00 PM
Intresting position. Could someone with Fritz put some variation?

I am considering 14. Nxh7
If 14... Nf5, then 15.Bxf5 ef5 16.Nf6+ Ke7 17.Nxd5+ looks good for white.
Another possibility 14...0-0-0. 15.Bxh6 gh6 16.Qf7 Bd4 17.Rc1+ Kb8 - very unclear

Maybe just 14...Be7?

pax
19-01-2006, 02:01 PM
I looked at few pgn files, they had only top five games

They have more now. You might have old PGN files stuck in your cache if you aren't seeing them. Try clearing your cache in your browser options.

Vlad
19-01-2006, 02:01 PM
after Nh7 black plays Bb5 and it looks to me that white is in trouble. After exchange not only knight is on but also Bd4 is the threat.

Actually after Nh7 Qd4 straihgt away atacks rook and bishop.

Vlad
19-01-2006, 02:02 PM
I thought that ....Qd4 would do against Nxh7.

yes, i justrealized myself:)

pax
19-01-2006, 02:03 PM
Intresting position. Could someone with Fritz put some variation?

I am considering 14. Nxh7
If 14... Nf5, then 15.Bxf5 ef5 16.Nf6+ Ke7 17.Nxd5+ looks good for white.
Another possibility 14...0-0-0. 15.Bxh6 gh6 16.Qf7 Bd4 17.Rc1+ Kb8 - very unclear

Maybe just 14...Be7?

This is the analysis after 14.Nxh7 Qd4 (the engine is Toga II which is at least the equal of Fritz). The best lines are at the bottom:



Toga II 1.1a:
1/5 00:00 6 0 -3.21 Qh5e2 Qd4xa1 Bc1xh6
1/5 00:00 13 0 -1.73 Bc1xh6 Qd4xd3
2/10 00:00 756 0 -1.73 Bc1xh6 Qd4xd3
3/10- 00:00 1.169 0 -3.37 Bc1xh6 Qd4xd3 Nh7g5 Rh8xh6 Qh5xf7+ Ke8d8 Qf7xg7
3/10 00:00 1.354 0 -1.43 Qh5e2 Nh6f5 Bc1b2
4/10 00:00 1.930 0 -1.76 Qh5e2 Nh6f5 Bc1b2 Qd4f4
5/14 00:00 4.406 0 -1.62 Qh5e2 Nh6f5 Bc1b2 Qd4f4 Qe2h5
6/16 00:00 10.796 0 -1.53 Qh5e2 Nh6f5 Bc1b2 Qd4h4 Bd3xf5 e6xf5 Rf1c1
7/17 00:00 23.842 0 -1.64 Qh5e2 Nh6f5 Bd3xf5 Qd4xa1 Bc1h6 Qa1d4 Bh6xg7
8/23+ 00:00 61.151 0 -1.23 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4f4 g2g3 Qf4b4 Ra1c1 Ra8c8
9/23 00:00 71.822 0 -1.26 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4f4 g2g3 Qf4b4 Ra1b1 Ra8c8 Qe2f3
10/23 00:00 132.289 0 -1.19 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4b4 Ra1b1 Ng4xh2 Rf1c1 Bc5e7 Rc1c7 Qb4h4
11/23 00:00 233.883 0 -1.23 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4b4 Ra1b1 Qb4f4 g2g3 Qf4a4 Bb2c3 g7g6 Nh7f6+ Ng4xf6 e5xf6
12/25 00:00 534.129 0 -1.04 Qh5e2 Nh6f5 Bd3xf5 Qd4xa1 Bc1h6 Qa1d4 Bh6xg7 000 Bg7xh8 Rd8xh8 Bf5d3 Qd4f4 Rf1b1
13/29 00:01 1.132.937 690.000 -1.02 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4a4 Ra1b1 g7g6 Qe2xg4 Rh8xh7 Qg4xa4 Bd7xa4 Rf1c1 b7b6 Bb2c3 Ra8c8
14/34 00:05 3.314.081 648.000 -1.00 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4a4 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 h2h3 Ng4h6 Nh7g5 Qa4xa2 Bd3b5 Qa2b3 Bb5xd7+ Ke8xd7 Rf1d1 Kd7e8
15/40 00:15 9.397.910 634.286 -0.98 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4a4 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 h2h3 Ng4h6 Rc1c2 Nh6f5 Rf1c1 b7b6 Bd3xf5 e6xf5 Qe2h5 Qa4xa2
16/43 00:55 32.736.751 596.148 -0.85 Qh5e2 Nh6g4 Bc1b2 Qd4a4 Ra1c1 Ra8c8 h2h3 Ng4h6 Rc1c2 b7b6 Rf1c1 Qa4f4 Bb2a3 Nh6f5 Ba3xc5 Rc8xc5 Bd3xf5 Qf4xf5

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:07 PM
I thought that ....Qd4 would do against Nxh7.

Looks very strong to me, did not even consider. I wonder what Zhao had in mind with Rxh7. Could it be that he did not see 14...Qd4?

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:09 PM
I think black has compensation for exchange, position about equal (but not drawish:) ). Pawn e5 is very weak, though

Vlad
19-01-2006, 02:10 PM
He seems to be choosing between Qh3 and Qg4..:)

Phil Bourke
19-01-2006, 02:11 PM
Well Zhao has chosen a path we never even considered !!
Guess that is the difference between IM's and us woodpushers : )
Not sure, but after Bxh7 Qg4, Qg4 Ng4, it leaves an interesting struggle of 2 B's and R + 1P against 2 R's and B, with some open files for the Rooks. I would favour White in that position.

Altecman
19-01-2006, 02:13 PM
Ill run fritz

Vlad
19-01-2006, 02:13 PM
Does not West get his pawn back with 19 Bd3..

Vlad
19-01-2006, 02:14 PM
Does not West get his pawn back with 19 Bd3..

Actually it is a nice trap.:)) White will play Ne5

Altecman
19-01-2006, 02:16 PM
Fritz says Nxh7 is bad because of Qd4 Qe2 and Nf5

Phil Bourke
19-01-2006, 02:16 PM
Moving the pieces two quick on the board, of course Black has the Knight + 1P v Rook after the Q exchange. I still favour White, those open files will serve Rooks better than the Knight : )

Davidflude
19-01-2006, 02:17 PM
Sermek - West. Few moves ago I thought black does not have much for a pawn. I think now black is at least equal.

You could be right, it is very interesting

Drummond - Chandler. Personally do not like 12.d4, I'd rather swap on e4 or kept tension in the centre (unless there is some tactics that I usually miss). I think black has equal chances now.

Solomon - Nokes. If it wasn't for stupid knight on f7, I'd prefer black. White did not achive anything in the opening. However, if white manages e4 and activate dark-square bishop, he'd have a good position.

Look at the times - zero for both players - did they forget to start the clocks?

Wohl - Garbett. Intresting, hard to judge. I'd say chances for both.

unclear

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:18 PM
Qg4 looks dangerous, but unclear. After 16.Qxg4 Nxg4 17.Rb1 seema a must (because of ...Bb5 threat). If 17...b6, then after 18.Bf4 white is alright. But 17...Nxe5 18.Rb7 seems good for black.

after 16.Qh3 Qxh3 17.gh3 Bd4 pawn e5 is exchanged for pawn b7 anyway, but white had doubled h pawns.

Generally I'd prefer Qxg4, but one need to calculate everything carefully.

Altecman
19-01-2006, 02:18 PM
Fritz after 14.Nxh7 -+ 14..Qd4 15Qe2 15..Nf5 16.Bxf5 16..Qxa1

Vlad
19-01-2006, 02:19 PM
After Qg4 Ng4 black not only attacks e5 but also threaten Bb5 and taking pawn on f2. So it is pretty much 2 pawns for exchange. I would prefer black. I also think Zhao is better in such positions than smurfo.

Altecman
19-01-2006, 02:20 PM
After 15..Qg4 Fritz reccomends 16.Qxg4 Nxg4 17.Bf4 Bd4 18.Rad1 Bc3 19 Rb1

Black is better according to fritz -/+

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:21 PM
23.Qh5!

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:22 PM
Well Zhao has chosen a path we never even considered !!
Guess that is the difference between IM's and us woodpushers : )
Not sure, but after Bxh7 Qg4, Qg4 Ng4, it leaves an interesting struggle of 2 B's and R + 1P against 2 R's and B, with some open files for the Rooks. I would favour White in that position.

He did not see 14...Qd4

Altecman
19-01-2006, 02:22 PM
sorry, after 17.Bf4 Bb5 is good for black because of the threat to f2

Altecman
19-01-2006, 02:24 PM
WHats so great about Qh5?

Igor_Goldenberg
19-01-2006, 02:25 PM
After 20... cd4 21.Rxc2 dc3 black has small, but stable advantage