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Lucena
18-11-2005, 12:29 AM
I was thinking about the "US is filth" thread, and how a country that is constituted of people you would normally consider on the whole as fairly unobjectionable individually, can through its government oversee actions that are objectionable, even at times repugnant[even Matthew Sweeney pointed out that it was the US corporately and not its individual citizens that is what is in question]. Then (and others pointed this out before I thought of it), I got to thinking - is it in order for us in Oz to do some examining of our own backyard also?

To start with, East Timor (various), Aboriginal reconciliation, Tampa, mandatory detention, Siev X(that one is debatable), children overboard...

Lucena
18-11-2005, 08:03 PM
speaking of Australian immigration policy...
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17286263%255E1702,00.html

bergil
12-12-2005, 10:28 AM
Gareth's heading rings true in light of events in Cronulla and the southern shire of NSW. The racism displayed by those on the weekend has been excused/explained by Bruce Baird Federal MP for the area on ABC radio this morning because of 9/11, Bali bombing, illegal immigration, recent and yet to be proved "terrorist raids" in Sydney and Melbourne and the latest attack by a gang of thugs of middle eastern appearance on two Cronulla lifegaurds and alcohol.

John Howard must be proud of his fellow Australians and his colleague but may have wished this occurred closer to election time so everyone will forget his IR policies and vote him in again.

shaun
12-12-2005, 10:31 AM
Howards Australia: First wrap yourself in the flag, then do anything you want.

Watto
12-12-2005, 12:15 PM
Mondays are bad enough without waking up to pictures like that on the front page. Depressing.
:(

There’s a Sorry book which I’ve seen recently- based on a US website. Quite extraordinary. Thousands of ordinary Americans sent in their photos with captions they’ve scrawled in or posters they’re holding up. Just saying sorry to the world for having voted in Bush. Sorry for not having done more to change things. Sorry for polluting the world. Trying to send out a message that not all Americans think they’re the most important people in the world, think invading countries is okay and so on. The photos are tremendously varied as are the people; moving too in a way I hadn't expected.

If things keep going the way they are, there might be a need for a similar website here :(

Watto
12-12-2005, 12:25 PM
Mondays are bad enough without waking up to pictures like that on the front page. Depressing.
:(

There’s a Sorry book which I’ve seen recently- based on a US website. Quite extraordinary. Thousands of ordinary Americans sent in their photos with captions they’ve scrawled in or posters they’re holding up. Just saying sorry to the world for having voted in Bush.

Actually, they're not saying sorry for voting in Bush! They're all adamant they didn't vote for Bush, saying that half the voting country didn't and they're sorry they didn't do more to ensure he wasn't voted in...

Sorry to the sorry site for my clumsy language. ;)

four four two
12-12-2005, 12:59 PM
Apathy...its a killer. :thumdown:

What I find interesting is how they keep referring to sunday's events as a "race riot". When really its a clash of cultures,the "middle eastern appearance=Lebanese" is hardly a homogenous group of people .
In the end the mob ended up attacking anyone who they perceived as not being "dinky-di" aussies,some of the people beaten were supposedly italian.

The guy I saw on the news who spouted the biggest load of crap was the guy who said words to the effect "My grandfather fought in wars to stop these "people"[the lifeguard attackers] from doing these things".
I can just see the right wing element of the RSL's reitterating this kind of rubbish, talk back radio will be giving them plenty of time to say things like "its all the fault of multiculturalism,we should never have let in the bloody middle eastern lot and the chinks". :mad:

Spiny Norman
12-12-2005, 01:02 PM
44, given that you say that it is a clash of cultures (and I agree with that assessment) ... how can multiculturalism escape blameless from the inevitable recriminations that are now to follow?

four four two
12-12-2005, 01:18 PM
There are very few autonomous states that are exclusively one ethnic culture,the vast majority of countries have many cultural minorities.
"Multiculturalism" is hardly a new phenomenon.

Having cultural minorities per se isnt a problem,they dont inherently lead to aggressive and violent behaviour . The point people here should remember is that the kind of behaviour that has taken place in Sydney in the last week is actually alot more common overseas .That doesnt mean that the mobs behaviour should be excused,but it does show that Australia has a much better track record on cultural diversity than many other countries. :ponder:

Alan Shore
12-12-2005, 02:37 PM
Actually, they're not saying sorry for voting in Bush! They're all adamant they didn't vote for Bush, saying that half the voting country didn't and they're sorry they didn't do more to ensure he wasn't voted in...

Sorry to the sorry site for my clumsy language. ;)

I saw the site straight after the elections.

An example:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8962/se66qv.jpg

bergil
12-12-2005, 02:55 PM
This is less a clash of cultures and more a case of wanna be tough guys trying to impress and boost their egos by intimidating and hurting others. Then "Australia First Party" right wing crackers see a chance to divide the community by playing up the race issue for all its worth. Here what they had on their web site:

Australian Youth And Families Should Support The Cronulla Mass Mobilisation On December 11

After months of racial taunts, threats and violence against Australian youth and families in the Cronulla area of Sydney - courtesy of gangs of Middle Eastern youths - a mass reaction has erupted right outside of the rules and forms of normal politics.Tired of being fobbed off by police commanders and local politicians, Australian youth took the matter into their own hands. It is the likely case that on Sunday, December 11, hundreds if not thousands of Australian youth and family people, will occupy the Cronulla beach area as an effective demonstration of solidarity with the victims of anti-Australian race hate and violence.

This demonstration is proper and should be supported by all residents and patriotic people.

The response of the Premier of the State, a man steeped in what is called multiculturalist ideology, was to call for a massive police presence to avert violence between angry Australians and the Middle Eastern gangs. Indeed, the participants should observe restraint and offer self-defence only if attacked. It is the very fact they will appear in great numbers, as living testimony to the rightful method of mass action, which will for this day at least, cow the hatemongers and show this Premier and those who stand with him, they are no longer intimidated by an ideology and policy that is now generally hated and loathed by the Australian people.

All members and friends of Australia First, particularly those in the Sutherland Shire, will participate as individuals in this first great mobilisation of Australians against the terror of multiculturalist ideology and practise in this country's history.

Kaitlin
12-12-2005, 03:36 PM
Didnt they have riots at Cronnulla yesterday - I heard something on the radio .....[edit] ... ahhh thats wat your post is about ---> that will teach me to read all of a post before replying and look at the date :P

Davidflude
12-12-2005, 04:25 PM
Has the lying rodent made any statement about the riot or is he still figuring out how to turn it to his political advantage.

arosar
12-12-2005, 04:27 PM
Shit, you step out of the country for a week and then this!

Anyway, what if I suggest that the Lebos deserved it? Think gang rapes, drive-by shootings.

AR

tigerninja
12-12-2005, 04:43 PM
no australia isnt filth :cool:

pballard
12-12-2005, 04:50 PM
Anyway, what if I suggest that the Lebos deserved it?

You'd be wrong.

arosar
12-12-2005, 04:59 PM
You'd be wrong.

OK...why not? As I understand it, they started this and basically disrespected the locals.

AR

Alan Shore
12-12-2005, 05:35 PM
Shit, you step out of the country for a week and then this!

Anyway, what if I suggest that the Lebos deserved it? Think gang rapes, drive-by shootings.

AR

I don't think it is deserved. However, I wouldn't say they were all 'completely innocent' victims - perhaps there was an indirect cause -> effect, perhaps it was largely unrelated, I'm sure we'll find out more in the coming weeks. Even so, it is no excuse for that kind of violent behaviour, it is disgraceful.

pballard
12-12-2005, 05:49 PM
OK...why not? As I understand it, they started this and basically disrespected the locals.


Who is "they"? The entire Lebanese community? The bystanders who happened to be dark skinned?

firegoat7
12-12-2005, 06:00 PM
OK...why not? As I understand it, they started this and basically disrespected the locals.

AR

AR,


One TV report suggested that this feuding had been happening for 30 years. Given what I know about surf culture, how much of it is related to the local versus westie phenomenon? Do you think the media over emphasised the rascist aspects, compared to the local autonomy issues.

cheers Fg7

Davidflude
12-12-2005, 06:09 PM
Has the lying rodent made any statement about the riot or is he still figuring out how to turn it to his political advantage.

I apologise for the above comment. The rodent made a reasonable statement on television.

four four two
12-12-2005, 06:44 PM
Howard is still a lying rodent, David...just not compulsive. ;)

arosar
12-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Out of all the ethnic people in this beautiful country that has accepted us and given us a wonderful life, how come the arabs cause the most trouble?

There are more Chinese people here than lebos. But do you see Chinese attract this much attention? Just wondering.

AR

four four two
12-12-2005, 09:24 PM
Keep digging Arosar,the hole you will find yourself in is gonna get mighty deep. :rolleyes:

Alan Shore
12-12-2005, 09:27 PM
Out of all the ethnic people in this beautiful country that has accepted us and given us a wonderful life, how come the arabs cause the most trouble?

There are more Chinese people here than lebos. But do you see Chinese attract this much attention? Just wondering.

AR

So.. what are you saying? Is the problem genetic? Cultural?

Perhaps chinese people aren't big and strong enough to wield baseball bats etc.? :P

(That's just parody by the way, if anyone were to misconstrue my words).

arosar
12-12-2005, 09:31 PM
Keep digging Arosar,the hole you will find yourself in is gonna get mighty deep. :rolleyes:

Well, I'm not saying anything. Just asking really. So I'm wondering if somebody well educated can shed some light. It's just a curious situation that out of all the ethnic groups in our beautiful multicultural melting pot, the lebos are always in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons.

AR

shaun
12-12-2005, 09:40 PM
Out of all the ethnic people in this beautiful country that has accepted us and given us a wonderful life, how come the arabs cause the most trouble?

There are more Chinese people here than lebos. But do you see Chinese attract this much attention? Just wondering.

AR

When I was a teenager it was the "Asians" who didn't fit in, unlike the Italians, who were "good migrants". And when my father was a teenager it was the "Italians" who didn't fit in, unlike the Irish ....

Alan Shore
12-12-2005, 09:40 PM
Well, I'm not saying anything. Just asking really. So I'm wondering if somebody well educated can shed some light. It's just a curious situation that out of all the ethnic groups in our beautiful multicultural melting pot, the lebos are always in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons.

AR

Actually, I could comment on a number of issues here - have done research on social psychology and minority groups in the past; cultural and social norms (including overt and covert attitudes), genetic predisposition, education and upbringing are all factors which bring us to understanding cause -> effect.

It'd be too long a post to go into detail though and my hands haven't recovered enough for that yet.

arosar
12-12-2005, 09:49 PM
Actually, I could comment on a number of issues here - have done research on social psychology and minority groups in the past; cultural and social norms (including overt and covert attitudes), genetic predisposition, education and upbringing are all factors which bring us to understanding cause -> effect.

It'd be too long a post to go into detail though and my hands haven't recovered enough for that yet.

Stop being such a useless intellectual. Speak from the gut.

AR

Alan Shore
12-12-2005, 09:54 PM
Stop being such a useless intellectual. Speak from the gut.

AR

:(

I'd be happy to discuss it in person, are you coming to Brisbane?

ElevatorEscapee
12-12-2005, 09:55 PM
Stop being such a useless intellectual. Speak from the gut.

AR

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrpppppp!!!! :lol:

Lucena
13-12-2005, 12:27 AM
I noticed a poll on Ninemsn asked:


Do you think Australia has a race problem?

Sounds like a pretty slimy question to me. Does anyone want to having a go at deconstructing it?

ElevatorEscapee
13-12-2005, 01:21 AM
Nah... someone else is bound to get there first! :P

bergil
13-12-2005, 05:55 AM
I noticed a poll on Ninemsn asked:

We do, in a small minority of the community but its not that bad that we have resorted to civil wars or genocide as other countries have (Yet).

Howards re-election on the back of the "People Overboard" and Pacific Island Solution along with Hansen's One Nation Party have proved that given the chance more than a few Australians will let slip there predjudices.

Spiny Norman
13-12-2005, 05:59 AM
There are more Chinese people here than lebos. But do you see Chinese attract this much attention? Just wondering.
There was a time, back a ways, when Chinese people DID get this much attention. It was around the 1850s here in Victoria and there was a lot of violence directed against them on the goldfields:

http://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.html?storyid=56

When I was a much younger man, as others have pointed out, it was the Asian community being targeted, whereas Italians and Greeks who'd previously been the target of a certain amount of abuse (but perhaps not much in the way of violence?) had assimilated into Australian culture and been accepted.

But I think the difference back then might've been this: Once upon a time it was considered acceptable to let off a bit of steam verbally, so everyone did. We probably all remember "wogs". It wasn't nice, admittedly. These days all expression is suppressed. Otherwise you are a racist. So people bottle up their differences and eventually it boils over directly into violence.

It seems to me to be an inherent human trait to want to group together with other people that are "like oneself". Fair enough. We all know of suburbs where that trait is exemplified. I don't see a problem with that. But what I think I object to is being told how to think and how to speak by the politically correct think-mongers in government. It really boils down to a massive social engineering experiment. "can't think this" and "can't say that" because you are a racist. So it all goes underground. If anyone thinks that by telling people what and how to think you are going to actually make them think and act a certain way, well, I think they're deluded.

Back in the 50s and 60s the "wogs" tended to group together and nobody minded. Gradually people got used to the idea. They worked together. They shouted drinks at the pub. Eventually the sting in the name "wog" was blunted and everyone learned to get along. We crossed the boundaries in sharing food. Souvlaki, pasta, etc. Its all good. But it happened "naturally" with nobody telling anyone else how to think or how fast it had to happen.

These days people are forced together too rapidly and some can't handle the pace of change. Fear enters the equation. Fear's friend is anger. Not allowed to speak about your fear, so it festers.

The incident which caused things to boil over, the bashing of the life guards, is the thing which I am interested in the most. Our beaches, our livesavers, are Aussie icons. One might almost draw parallels between surf culture and a "religion". Someone defiled one of our Aussie holy places, so just like other religious zealots all over the world, "we" rioted. Does anyone think that this would have happened if the three that were bashed have been drunk kids on their way home from a party?

I have a personal view that lack of police resourcing over many years has allowed lots of anti-social behaviour to be tolerated where it once was not acceptable. In decades long gone, if a bunch of kids got a bit out of hand, a visit from the local constabulary and a cuff behind the ear was probably enough to correct the problem. But nowadays it seems to be ignored until someone is stabbed, or bashed, or run over by a car, or whatever. The problems aren't being addressed early enough, so they escalate.

Our culture, terrific though it be, is a thin veneer that papers over very disturbing human tendencies towards anger and violence. We have seen it year after year in other countries (ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sudan and countless other places). Every time I see that, I wonder if/when it will visit our land.

Is the genie out of the bottle? What is the path forward from here?

Jabbus
13-12-2005, 08:05 AM
I noticed a poll on Ninemsn asked:



Do you think Australia has a race problem?

Sounds like a pretty slimy question to me. Does anyone want to having a go at deconstructing it?

:) I'll take it on, by way of introducing myself to this forum.

"Do you think Australia has a race problem?" starts with the assumption that any of our opinions matter, that we agree on what a "race problem" is, and by seemingly casting the net as wide as Australia, prejudices answers towards prescribing a national solution, ie. immigration policy. How am I doing here ? :owned:

Of course our opinions matter. But this is just the kind of question talkback jocks use to get debate going, before censoring half of it. Like so many of the emotive issues that these meatheads like to stir up, there is nothing that listeners can really do about gang violence other than ... well, mob violence. I hope the jocks learn a lesson from what happens when a time and a place are mentioned to their frustrated listeners.

"A race problem" ... well this is the slimiest bit of the question, isn't it. "Lets talk about the race problem, or alternatively deny that it exists." When your neighbour burns plastic in her incinerator, it's a problem, but if she wants to drink herself to death, that's HER problem. The implication here is that 'race is a problem.' We're given a chance to agree or disagree, rather than comment on racial diversity, its problems but also its advantages.

And finally, the use of the word "Australia." I believe gangs are a symptom of poverty, but that's not the issue here. It's the big city, and we're getting the same problems as big cities in other prosperous nations. Suggesting that it's a national problem biases the answer towards national solutions, i.e. restricting immigration, or increasing it in the unlikely event that today of all days the debate tended towards "Not a problem."

This reply took me so long to write, I might have repeated what quicker posters said. If so, I'm sorry. I was playing chess :)

pax
13-12-2005, 08:30 AM
From the footage that I saw, the raving mobs were not stopping to ask "excuse me, but are you Lebanese?" before kicking the sh*t out of someone that looked vaguely olive skinned.

four four two
13-12-2005, 10:42 AM
Shit, you step out of the country for a week and then this!

Anyway, what if I suggest that the Lebos deserved it? Think gang rapes, drive-by shootings.

AR



OK...why not? As I understand it, they started this and basically disrespected the locals.

AR



Out of all the ethnic people in this beautiful country that has accepted us and given us a wonderful life, how come the arabs cause the most trouble?



AR



Well, I'm not saying anything. Just asking really.

AR


Your not saying anything? This is either a patheticly low attempt at trolling to try and draw Antichrist back onto the board or you are just plain rascist. :buttkick:

You are very selective about one migrant community being "the bad element",and yet the government statistics will clearly show that crime occurs across all migrant backgrounds. With New Zealanders being the highest offending group,and not the lebanese. :hand:

How can you possibly judge a community that numbers over 200,000 in Australia on the basis of the actions of less than 2000 people? :hmm:

Your statements would be no better than me saying Filipino women deserve to be bashed by white men cause their parents sell them into prostitution. Your reputation on this board is reaching a new low. :thumdown:

arosar
13-12-2005, 02:08 PM
Your reputation on this board is reaching a new low. :thumdown:

Are you upset? You're not lebo, are you?

Anyway, I think it's best to speak to our last remaining lebo - jenni. Well, she's sorta part leb, which I absolutely cannot believe!

jenni, what do you think of all troubles?

AR

Vlad
13-12-2005, 02:44 PM
OK...why not? As I understand it, they started this and basically disrespected the locals.

AR

This is a very wrong way of looking at things. In the big community like Sydney there are many accidents. How many people are being attacked in Sydney every day? I think the number will be of order at least 100.

The problem is in the attitude. Whenever white people attack others - nobody cares. Once lebanese attacked white people - here we go.

Garvinator
13-12-2005, 03:23 PM
Anyway, I think it's best to speak to our last remaining lebo - jenni. Well, she's sorta part leb, which I absolutely cannot believe!

jenni, what do you think of all troubles?

AR
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: ok now i am horrified and i think i need to go see a psychiatrist. When I was out earlier today and reading the Australian paper, i was thinking that i would come on here and see what Jenni thought of all this as she has seen quite a bit of all this stuff overseas.

As soon as I log into this thread, Amiel has beaten me to it. oh nooooooooo :eek: :eek: :eek: :uhoh:

shaun
13-12-2005, 03:24 PM
Amiel I think you are falling into the trap of "self fulfilling belief". You start with a premise (in this case "Lebanese cause more trouble than anyone else") and then you collect evidence to support this position ("See its all over the news"). But of course you're going to notice the evidence that supports your claim far more than the evidence that doesn't.
Another example. When I worked for the Department of Defence there were a number of Navy guys who didn't have a single good word to say about pinoys. To them pinoys were the worst people they had ever come across (thieves, pirates etc). This evidence was gathered after a number of deployments around SE Asia, and based on the number of fights, brawls, arguments they had during trips to Manilla.
So what to make of all this. Either their dislike of pinoys was increased by incidents caused by their dislike of pinoys, or it wasn't their fault and Amiel better stear clear of Garden Island.

arosar
13-12-2005, 07:20 PM
Man, don't start me on navy and pinoys. That bloody useless Pinoy Navy is, to this very day, still using yankee hand-me-downs from WW2. Useless pricks!

Anyway, I was talking to a mate of mine today, a lebo, and he reckoned that this is not all lebos. It's only a certain kind of lebos.

Look, I live in leboland. My fave cafe is a lebo owned. Once I even sat next to bloody, whatshisname, Mamdou Habib. So I have no problem with these people. I'm just sorta wondering about all this trouble. I mean, how come? The rest of us folks just come to this beautiful country and make a good living. You see where I'm coming from?

AR

jenni
13-12-2005, 07:25 PM
Anyway, I think it's best to speak to our last remaining lebo - jenni. Well, she's sorta part leb, which I absolutely cannot believe!


Why can't you believe it? Allowing yourself stereotypes I think. I am most definitely part leb. 25% to be exact. You only have to look at Gareth to see the leb ancestry.

Anyway, my opinion is that yobbos will use any excuse for violence. They just put different labels on it. Christian vs Muslim, Black vs White, Irish Catholic vs Irish Protestant, Shiites vs Sunnis.

By the way my Lebanese grandmother was one of the worst rascists I have ever come across......

shaun
13-12-2005, 07:31 PM
Anyway, I was talking to a mate of mine today, a lebo, and he reckoned that this is not all lebos. It's only a certain kind of lebos.

Look, I live in leboland. My fave cafe is a lebo owned. Once I even sat next to bloody, whatshisname, Mamdou Habib. So I have no problem with these people. I'm just sorta wondering about all this trouble. I mean, how come? The rest of us folks just come to this beautiful country and make a good living. You see where I'm coming from?

AR

Not at all, unless you are trying the "some of my best friends are black" gambit.

Spiny Norman
13-12-2005, 08:44 PM
There was a time, back a ways, when Chinese people DID get this much attention. It was around the 1850s here in Victoria and there was a lot of violence directed against them on the goldfields:

http://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.html?storyid=56
I was thinking about this tonight as I waited to pick up my take-away from the Oriental Palace restaurant in Lilydale ... and was very glad that the Chinese found a way to survive their very rough first few years in Australia, not withstanding the crap that we put them through.

I wonder whether the same thing will apply to the current situation when we look back on it in 20, 30 or 40 years?

Trent Parker
14-12-2005, 04:30 AM
I think someone has laready commented on the police shortage and it would be interesting to se if there is any correlation between sydney's population and it's police force.

I think the shortage of police is the Key issue. The victims of what has happened feel that the police have not done enough.

Another issue is the cultural differences in the cultural groups in sydney. AFAIK not all lebs are muslims as i know a coupla leb females and they do not use the head scarfs that the vast majority of female muslims are "required" to wear (i know there are exceptions eg Turkey)

So unless i am mistaken Lebanese are not out to reign terror on "the infidels" (and i'm not saying that all muslims are.)


What i think has happened in the past is that, for example, "the wog" culture gelled in with the australian culture so that the two can live in harmony. What i think needs to happen with these lebanese and perhaps muslims is to perhaps find some common ground that both cultures agree with and perhaps there will be less crime due to an increased understanding of the two different cultures.


I think the media has alot to answer for. I think the media somewhat insights the violence. I saw an interview on the Today show yesterday morning and they had the "bra boys" from maroubra on. now they don't want violence of any kind and they have already started to talk to the lebanese leaders to hopefully broker a ceasefire in the racial violence that has been happening.

But the thing that annoys me is that the violence is spreading. Apparently a church was burnt down in Macquarie Fields, which is another area which, i believe has a reasonable amount of lebanese living in the area.

I reckon they should put the advertisments with the song:
We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We share a dream and sing with one voice:
I am, you are, we are Australian

It might have an effect.

BFG
15-12-2005, 04:55 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/series/cartoon/13tueedcar.html

bergil
17-12-2005, 04:59 AM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/series/cartoon/13tueedcar.html
What do you call an Lebanese/Australian bloke flying a plane? :hmm:

The pilot you racist! :P

Kaitlin
17-12-2005, 06:57 AM
There was a time, back a ways, when Chinese people DID get this much attention. It was around the 1850s here in Victoria and there was a lot of violence directed against them on the goldfields:
http://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.html?storyid=56

And in th in some town called Young back in those days, the miners had a riot cause they thought that there was lots of chinese comming in a takeing 'their' gold. And the governement or who ever was in charge sent the army in to squish the riot - which they did... but out of those riots emerged the White Australia policy - which set back the Chinese takeaway industry for years and years.

Dozy
17-12-2005, 09:56 AM
And in th in some town called Young back in those days, the miners had a riot cause they thought that there was lots of chinese comming in a takeing 'their' gold. And the governement or who ever was in charge sent the army in to squish the riot - which they did... but out of those riots emerged the White Australia policy - which set back the Chinese takeaway industry for years and years.Funny you should mention that, Kaitlin, becoz a couple of years ago it looked as though Little Johnny Howard was going to re-introduce the White Australia policy.

He said he wanted Australians to be fairer!

Alan Shore
17-12-2005, 01:03 PM
Funny you should mention that, Kaitlin, becoz a couple of years ago it looked as though Little Johnny Howard was going to re-introduce the White Australia policy.

He said he wanted Australians to be fairer!

When? I don't remember that? Or is that when Ruddock was immigration minister and introduced those restrictions?

Dozy
17-12-2005, 01:11 PM
When? I don't remember that? Or is that when Ruddock was immigration minister and introduced those restrictions?Sorry, Belthasar, I didn't think anybody would interpret it literally.
He wasn't setting the clock back: I think he wanted us to be more "fair minded"...

Kaitlin
17-12-2005, 02:01 PM
or was it that fair trade stuff - oranges and stuff form overseas

Davidflude
18-12-2005, 08:18 AM
A dinki di Aussie bloke I know married a sheila of chinese extraction. She took great pleasure in pointing out that she was fourth generation aussie and he was only second generation.\

It is disgusting that the rodent is so totally amoral in the way he exploits ethnic
differences. When the libs finally go down the tube it will be more shattering than what happened to the Pom tories when the electorate turned against them.
Thatcher.

bergil
18-12-2005, 10:33 AM
A dinki di Aussie bloke I know married a sheila of chinese extraction. She took great pleasure in pointing out that she was fourth generation aussie and he was only second generation.\

It is disgusting that the rodent is so totally amoral in the way he exploits ethnic
differences. When the libs finally go down the tube it will be more shattering than what happened to the Pom tories when the electorate turned against them.
Thatcher.
Lets hope so. :pray:

pballard
18-12-2005, 09:06 PM
Funny you should mention that, Kaitlin, becoz a couple of years ago it looked as though Little Johnny Howard was going to re-introduce the White Australia policy.


I know you've back tracked on that comment, but in all seriousness Howard did suggest it (or a form of it) during his first stint as opposition leader in the 80s.

antichrist
03-04-2006, 06:32 PM
It came out in an Insight program a few weeks ago that on the day after the so-called attack on the lifeguards the Daily Telegraph reported in one tiny paragraph that it was the lifeguards who were off duty that started the fight??????????

Tomas Kessler
03-04-2006, 11:00 PM
Sorry David, I don't think this electorate has the brains to ever vote the Liberal Party out of office. I know of people who are "dirt poor" who will never admit it but secretly vote for John Howard. A good read is Judith Brett's essay on the Howard Government. The Packer media including Channel 9 have got the little Aussie 'battler' worried about "the economy" rather than their own hip pocket.

Tomas Kessler
03-04-2006, 11:14 PM
Remember what the Canadians did to the government that passed their version of the G.S.T.? ("Dogwhistle politics" doesn't work there because it is a nation that enjoys far more cultural diversity than Australia)
.........ahem.......when did I become a moderator incidently?...........I mean I'm flattered but sheesh!

?

Spiny Norman
04-04-2006, 07:02 AM
Sorry David, I don't think this electorate has the brains to ever vote the Liberal Party out of office. I know of people who are "dirt poor" who will never admit it but secretly vote for John Howard. A good read is Judith Brett's essay on the Howard Government. The Packer media including Channel 9 have got the little Aussie 'battler' worried about "the economy" rather than their own hip pocket.
What absolute rubbish. So you think that the electorate is "dumb" because you don't like the way it consistently votes? Try having a look at the quality of the competing offering before you malign voters. I think they are a lot smarter than you give them credit for.

Of course, at the next election, if they voted Howard out, you'd suddenly ascribe new intelligence to them would you? :hand:

bergil
04-04-2006, 10:52 AM
What absolute rubbish. So you think that the electorate is "dumb" because you don't like the way it consistently votes? Try having a look at the quality of the competing offering before you malign voters. I think they are a lot smarter than you give them credit for.

Of course, at the next election, if they voted Howard out, you'd suddenly ascribe new intelligence to them would you? :hand:
Not new intelligence but there are only so many lies and beatings you can take before you give up or walk away.

The electorate isn't very smart and has been play for fools from Baby overboard to the latest wheat scandal. Divide and conquer, lie and deny remember when the Howard government proudly came in with a ministerial code of conduct?

The new IR laws will drive down the average wage which in turn will drive down the pension. If those people already struggling have less money to look after themselves it will have a bearing on the Medicare health system which given half the chance is another Howard target he'd like to see disappear and further alienate the haves from the have nots.

The case of the 30 workers at an abattoir in Cowra who were given 5 weeks notice and on the back of the notice were given the opportunity to reapply for jobs the day after they finish for about $200 a week less! Whether this is legal nobody is sure but this is the climate the Federal government has created.

Spiny Norman
04-04-2006, 01:31 PM
bergil, nothing you have posted there indicates the electorate is "dumb" as best I can see ... and for the record, I don't like the new IR changes, nor do I like the AWB scandal.

bergil
04-04-2006, 02:56 PM
bergil, nothing you have posted there indicates the electorate is "dumb" as best I can see ... and for the record, I don't like the new IR changes, nor do I like the AWB scandal.It was you who said they were dumb, not I!!

If University educated, your fees kept increasing in the last ten years and you now amass a very large debt upon earning your qualification. But we voted them back in

If a semi skilled worker, Foreshadowed IR laws had and now has your wages, conditions and job sercurity under threat. But we voted them back in.

Pensioners were not compensated adequately for the introduction of the GST and now with the IR laws will see their pension fall behind even further. But voted them back in.

Middle class, because America had three planes flown into buildings killing thousands of poor unfortunate people. We joined the coalition of the willing ignored the UN and wasted hundreds of millions on "Defence" restricted personal freedoms, created, heightened and exploited xenophobia and racism. But we voted them back in.

Time and again Howard's government has used wedge politics lied, denied and switched focus on one group or another but they were voted back in.

How smart are you if you keep falling for "Hey, look over there!"? :hmm:

Lucena
04-04-2006, 03:26 PM
bergil, nothing you have posted there indicates the electorate is "dumb" as best I can see


It was you who said they were dumb, not I!!
:

You could have fooled me.




The electorate isn't very smart

antichrist
04-04-2006, 03:31 PM
What I don't like him is how they lowered capital gains tax and something else which I have forgotten which facilitated the real estate boom of 1999 onwards. This boom has made it very difficult for young people starting off to get into their own home. As well the new workplace agreements (as well as previous ones) will prevent many youngsters from the capacity to take out loans to purchase their own home. Talk about sabatoging the lower working class - the real battlers. The boom also resulted in probably many tens of billions of dollars of more foreign debt for Australians which they have to pay off instead of being able to have children at a proper age. And he reakons he cares about family.

ursogr8
04-04-2006, 05:23 PM
You could have fooled me.

:lol:


Nicely done him on his petard.

Lucena
04-04-2006, 05:31 PM
I don't think it's a matter of smartness Bergil, more of self-interest. A lot of it has to do with Australia's economic prosperity. People are reluctant to vote out someone they see as providing financial security. And bear in mind the Liberals ran a very effective scare campaign on interest rates at the last election. I suspect most people were prepared to overlook some of Mr Howard's less admirable features if it meant continued good economic conditions. Also I have heard there is a general growing public cynicism toward politicians, so people expect them to be two-faced or duplicitous or dishonest or whatever you want to call it. All of the above said, I can't say I'm exactly Mr Howard's greatest fan.

Spiny Norman
05-04-2006, 07:05 AM
Hawke/Keating used to own the "middle ground", all through the 80's and early 90's anyway. Now it is Howard/Costello. It would take a significant issue, bigger than AWB I suspect, in order to make people elect someone like Beazley and his team over Howard. Julia Gillard is an interesting cloud on the horizon though. Not shy of self-promotion that one. Maybe its about time Australia had a female PM ...

bergil
05-04-2006, 10:58 AM
Hawke/Keating used to own the "middle ground", all through the 80's and early 90's anyway. Now it is Howard/Costello. It would take a significant issue, bigger than AWB I suspect, in order to make people elect someone like Beazley and his team over Howard.
I'm sure you are correct but that "middle ground" was leaning right it seems that Australia is so far to the right now that a true labour party may never get back in.

Tomas Kessler
05-04-2006, 11:23 AM
Frosty why troll?
Fact: Australia has some of the highest levels of non-literacy in the OECD.
This issue alone has tremendous implications for political debate and sophistication of the electorate.

Lucena
05-04-2006, 11:55 AM
Frosty why troll?
Fact: Australia has some of the highest levels of non-literacy in the OECD.

Have you got any evidence to justify this assertion?

Spiny Norman
05-04-2006, 12:05 PM
Frosty why troll?
You're accusing ME of trolling after what you posted to start this little tiff? :hand:


Fact: Australia has some of the highest levels of non-literacy in the OECD.
This issue alone has tremendous implications for political debate and sophistication of the electorate.
I think it would be good for you to provide some stats to support that statement. Also, you should clarify what sort of literacy you are talking about.

For example, in terms of mathematical and scientific literacy, Australia scores above the OECD average (http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/1301.0Feature Article172006?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=1301.0&issue=2006&num=&view=).

Tomas Kessler
05-04-2006, 02:02 PM
Our primary and secondary schools have been captive to a discredited system of teaching language, spelling, oral communication. Brendan Nelson had something to say about how something like 40% of our high school graduates were functionally illiterate. He waived an OECD report that I did read which basically said the same thing.
It seems to me you do not contribute to this scientific literacy!
It would be good if you, a self confessed 'flat earther' subscribed to the validity of science. Creationism is hogwash whichever way you label it.
Ask a young person or an old person a question like "What are tariffs?"
or "What is deregulation of the workforce?" or even Who was Billy Hughes and why did he 'defect' to the conservatives, What were the issues?"
These matters are still current, see what the average person says.
These are things are VERY IMPORTANT.
Maybe the average australian wants to discuss footy and cricket i.e. Things which are unimportant.

Duff McKagan
05-04-2006, 04:27 PM
Our primary and secondary schools have been captive to a discredited system of teaching language, spelling, oral communication. Brendan Nelson had something to say about how something like 40% of our high school graduates were functionally illiterate. He waived an OECD report that I did read which basically said the same thing.

Yes it is a sign of the times. People think about the current and not the future. So long as they are getting their wage they don't give a ****. Let's hope John Titor's predictions come true soon.


Creationism is hogwash whichever way you label it.

Don't get JONO started on this BB with comments like this.


Maybe the average australian wants to discuss footy and cricket i.e. Things which are unimportant.

Unimportant to some, but important to others, it all depends on the individual.Or maybe important to all but footy is more interesting to talk about, don't wanna bore the people at the pub :D

Tomas Kessler
05-04-2006, 04:47 PM
Aussie Rules Football is boring to watch and even more boring to talk about:-
"Cousins just pulled a hammy is suffering from a corky and copped a bewdy last Satdy" :sick:

Spiny Norman
05-04-2006, 05:31 PM
It seems to me you do not contribute to this scientific literacy! It would be good if you, a self confessed 'flat earther' subscribed to the validity of science. Creationism is hogwash whichever way you label it.
ker-plunk!

antichrist
06-04-2006, 12:17 PM
Aussie Rules Football is boring to watch and even more boring to talk about:-
"Cousins just pulled a hammy is suffering from a corky and copped a bewdy last Satdy" :sick:

Power to you brother. I have earlier described ARL as playing draughts with each side's pieces beginning on different colours, that is that never meet. There is just nothing in it. I could draw analogies but will keep it clean.

bergil
06-04-2006, 12:58 PM
Power to you brother. I have earlier described ARL as playing draughts with each side's pieces beginning on different colours, that is that never meet. There is just nothing in it. I could draw analogies but will keep it clean.
He was talking about the AFL Australian Rules, where as the ARL is Rugby League. Regardsless you are both wrong about their entertainment value to Australians.

Tomas is right about it being boring the way they so over report, analyes and sensationalize every trivial thing in aussie rules. The only other sport in regards hype over content is the American NFL or Gridiron, which far surpasses it.