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Ian Murray
25-11-2019, 09:21 AM
The antisemites fail to differentiate between deaths of Palestinian children in the schools from where Hamas launches rockets or conscripted into terrorism at a young age, and Israeli children on school buses and in pizza restaurants.

I wouldn't know what antisemites do, but you're raking over long-cold ashes. The last suicide attack was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks). And Palestinian munitions were stored (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/) in (not fired from) schools and mosques as part of the Gaza military network to withstand the ongoing Israeli invasions (2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014).

MichaelBaron
25-11-2019, 04:39 PM
U]munitions were stored[/U][/URL] in (not fired from) schools and mosques as part of the Gaza military network to withstand the ongoing Israeli invasions (2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014).

So...Schools and Mosques included into a ''Military Network'' - any comments on this?

Ian Murray
25-11-2019, 05:26 PM
So...Schools and Mosques included into a ''Military Network'' - any comments on this?

Five years ago. Not now.

It worked both ways at the time:

U.N. says Israel violated international law, after shells hit school in Gaza (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-attack-16-killed-at-un-school/2014/07/30/4a643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html)

Capablanca-Fan
02-12-2019, 02:46 PM
U.N. says Israel violated international law, after shells hit school in Gaza (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-attack-16-killed-at-un-school/2014/07/30/4a643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html)

Who cares what this kakistocracy thinks? If it were any other country, the UN would condemn as war criminals those who launched rockets near schools. If the UN don't want their schools hit, then they should make sure that terrorists don't launch rockets or hide weaponry in or near them.

Ian Murray
03-12-2019, 08:34 PM
Who cares what this kakistocracy thinks? If it were any other country, the UN would condemn as war criminals those who launched rockets near schools. If the UN don't want their schools hit, then they should make sure that terrorists don't launch rockets or hide weaponry in or near them.

From the same report:
"Hidden caches of rockets have been discovered at three U.N. schools in Gaza since the conflict began, and the refugee agency has accused unnamed groups of putting civilians at risk. “We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of U.N. property,” UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said in a statement Tuesday, after weapons were found at one such facility. "

MichaelBaron
03-12-2019, 10:56 PM
We all know how ''objective'' UN is :)

Capablanca-Fan
04-12-2019, 02:17 AM
From the same report:
"Hidden caches of rockets have been discovered at three U.N. schools in Gaza since the conflict began, and the refugee agency has accused unnamed groups of putting civilians at risk. “We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of U.N. property,” UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said in a statement Tuesday, after weapons were found at one such facility. "

So which “unnamed groups” could have put civilians at risk by hiding caches of rockets in UN schools, do you think? A false flag operation by the IDF?

antichrist
04-12-2019, 05:12 AM
So which “unnamed groups” could have put civilians at risk by hiding caches of rockets in UN schools, do you think? A false flag operation by the IDF?

The Israeli leaders have put their own civilians at risk by housing them on stolen land and a war zone. Due to the nature and length of this occupation I expect that eventually an anti-Israeli will purchase a nuclear or a few and clandestinely bomb Israel. There are already reports of attempted purchases of such.

Ian Murray
04-12-2019, 07:01 AM
So which “unnamed groups” could have put civilians at risk by hiding caches of rockets in UN schools, do you think? A false flag operation by the IDF?

It's unlikely they were still in their original Amazon packaging addressed to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Resistance Committees, Fatah or the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine

Capablanca-Fan
04-12-2019, 08:29 AM
It's unlikely they were still in their original Amazon packaging addressed to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Resistance Committees, Fatah or the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine

I.e. all groups committed to the annihilation of Israel. Most likely to be Hamas since they are the most prominent in Gaza.

Ian Murray
04-12-2019, 09:40 AM
I.e. all groups committed to the annihilation of Israel. Most likely to be Hamas since they are the most prominent in Gaza.

Meanwhile Israel proceeds with its plans to annihilate Palestine by annexation, now with Trump's connivance.

The extra population will make Israel more Arab than Jewish of course, which will be a bit of a problem. Democracy or apartheid?

Capablanca-Fan
04-12-2019, 03:12 PM
Trump and Netanyahu: Both Being Investigated for Made-Up Crimes (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15217/trump-netanyahu-impeachment-indictment)
by Alan M. Dershowitz, Gatestone Institute, 27 Nov 2019


The most striking similarity is that both are being investigated for actions that their legislatures have not explicitly made criminal.
Politicians always seek good coverage and many vote with that in mind. Some even negotiate good coverage in advance of voting. That is why they have press secretaries and media consultants.
Nor could a reasonable statute be drafted that covered Netanyahu's alleged conduct, but not that of other Knesset members who bartered their votes for good coverage. That is why no legislature in a country governed by the rule of law has ever made positive media coverage the "quid" or "quo" necessary for a bribery conviction, and that is why the bribery indictment of Netanyahu should not be upheld by the courts.
[I]t is simply not a crime for a President to use his power over foreign policy for political, partisan or even personal advantage. Imagine Congress trying to pass a law defining what would constitute a criminal abuse of the foreign policy power, as distinguished from a political or moral abuse.... Presidents have even engaged in military actions for political gain.
The central aspect of the rule of law is that no one may be investigated, prosecuted or impeached unless his conduct violates pre-existing and unambiguous prohibitions. Neither Congress nor prosecutors can make it up as they go along, because they, too, are not above the law.

Capablanca-Fan
04-12-2019, 03:22 PM
'Israel is what the Arab world can be but is unable to be' (https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/12/01/israel-is-what-the-arab-world-can-be-but-is-unable-to-be/)
Egyptian-born Hussein Aboubakr was 14 when he discovered much of what he was told about Israel was a lie and the revelation sent him down a harrowing path, from which he emerged as a pro-Israel advocate in the United States. "I dream of making the Arabs understand what Israel really stands for," he says.
by Dudi Caspi, Israel Hayom, 1 Dec 2019

MichaelBaron
04-12-2019, 04:40 PM
So....the case is closed. A fair outcome. Sometimes law does prevail over political correctness. I am pretty surre, Israel is happy with the settlement

Ian Murray
04-12-2019, 04:54 PM
So....the case is closed. A fair outcome. Sometimes law does prevail over political correctness. I am pretty surre, Israel is happy with the settlement

[head-scratching] I think he might mean Israel Falou, not the Land of. Certainly the case is not closed against Netanyahu

Patrick Byrom
04-12-2019, 05:59 PM
Trump and Netanyahu: Both Being Investigated for Made-Up Crimes (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15217/trump-netanyahu-impeachment-indictment) by Alan M. Dershowitz, Gatestone Institute, 27 Nov 2019

... [I]t is simply not a crime for a President to use his power over foreign policy for political, partisan or even personal advantage. Imagine Congress trying to pass a law defining what would constitute a criminal abuse of the foreign policy power, as distinguished from a political or moral abuse.... Presidents have even engaged in military actions for political gain.
The central aspect of the rule of law is that no one may be investigated, prosecuted or impeached unless his conduct violates pre-existing and unambiguous prohibitions. Neither Congress nor prosecutors can make it up as they go along, because they, too, are not above the law.
Seeking foreign interference in a US election is a crime! And Congress doesn't need to pass a law - Trump is being impeached for using foreign aid to benefit himself, a clearly impeachable offence. He is also obstructing the impeachment inquiry - another impeachable offence.

Is Dershowitz seriously arguing that a person can't even be investigated unless there is clear evidence of their guilt!? What's the point of a criminal investigation then?

antichrist
04-12-2019, 06:01 PM
So....the case is closed. A fair outcome. Sometimes law does prevail over political correctness. I am pretty surre, Israel is happy with the settlement
I am sure Israel is more than happy with all their illegal settlements getting recognition from Trump.

Capablanca-Fan
06-12-2019, 03:11 AM
Seeking foreign interference in a US election is a crime! And Congress doesn't need to pass a law - Trump is being impeached for using foreign aid to benefit himself, a clearly impeachable offence. He is also obstructing the impeachment inquiry - another impeachable offence.

Is Dershowitz seriously arguing that a person can't even be investigated unless there is clear evidence of their guilt!? What's the point of a criminal investigation then?

No, that a person should not be investigated unless there is evidence of an actual crime, not the made-up crimes you and the Dems whinge about. Contrast that with Beria: "Show me the man, and I'll find the crime."

Ian Murray
06-12-2019, 06:53 AM
No, that a person should not be investigated unless there is evidence of an actual crime, ...

The aim of an investigation is to uncover the evidence, if any. If evidence of a crime is established then no investigation is necessary

Patrick Byrom
06-12-2019, 12:09 PM
No, that a person should not be investigated unless there is evidence of an actual crime, not the made-up crimes you and the Dems whinge about. Contrast that with Beria: "Show me the man, and I'll find the crime."That's not what Dershowitz said (my italics):

The central aspect of the rule of law is that no one may be investigated, prosecuted or impeached unless his conduct violates pre-existing and unambiguous prohibitions. Neither Congress nor prosecutors can make it up as they go along, because they, too, are not above the law.
So he is saying that a person can't even be investigated unless there is already evidence that they have committed a crime!

The first half of Law and Order would be a lot shorter if that were the case:

Detective Briscoe: Does this person have an alibi for the night of the murder?
Detective Green: We can't ask him - the Dershowitz rule means we already have to have evidence that he committed the crime before we can investigate him for it.
Detective Briscoe: I'm glad I'm retiring next year!

antichrist
06-12-2019, 12:39 PM
That's not what Dershowitz said (my italics):

The central aspect of the rule of law is that no one may be investigated, prosecuted or impeached unless his conduct violates pre-existing and unambiguous prohibitions. Neither Congress nor prosecutors can make it up as they go along, because they, too, are not above the law.
So he is saying that a person can't even be investigated unless there is already evidence that they have committed a crime!

The first half of Law and Order would be a lot shorter if that were the case:

Detective Briscoe: Does this person have an alibi for the night of the murder?
Detective Green: We can't ask him - the Dershowitz rule means we already have to have evidence that he committed the crime before we can investigate him for it.
Detective Briscoe: I'm glad I'm retiring next year!

Like when playing 500 and going Open Misire and then playing their hand for them as too complicated!

Capablanca-Fan
08-12-2019, 03:14 AM
Nikki Haley Says Canada Made ‘Deal With the Devil’ With Recent Turn Against Israel at UN (https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/12/06/nikki-haley-says-canada-made-deal-with-the-devil-with-recent-turn-against-israel-at-un)
by Karys Rhea, Algemeiner, 7 Dec 2019

“Two weeks ago, Canada surprised Israel’s friends by voting for a North Korean resolution that challenges the legitimacy of Israel,” Haley noted. “This is a resolution that Canadian governments for years have voted against.”

Haley — an ex-South Carolina governor and potential future Republican presidential candidate — also described a “culture of bullies” at the UN, and said the global intergovernmental body was “time and again” failing to “live up to its charter.”

She called the UN Security Council’s regular meeting on the Middle East a “monthly Israel bashing session.”

“If we want to talk about security in the Middle East, we should talk about Iran or Syria or Hezbollah or Hamas or ISIS or the famine in Yemen,” Haley pointed out. “There are about ten major problems facing the Middle East, and Israel doesn’t have anything to do with any of them.”

She also criticized the UN Human Rights Council, where an array of human rights-violating nations — such as China, Cuba, Egypt, Qatar, Nigeria, Somalia, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia — currently hold sway, and a number of others — including Venezuela, Mauritania, Sudan and Libya — are set to join in January.

“Many encouraged us to remain on the council because the United States, they said, provided the last shred of credibility the Human Rights Council had,” Haley recalled. “And that was precisely why we decided to leave. The United States should not lend any credibility to this cesspool of political hypocrisy and corruption.”

antichrist
08-12-2019, 06:40 AM
CP, the quote of Haley shows just how unsuitable she is to be involved in any foreign policy area what so ever.

Ian Murray
08-12-2019, 07:22 AM
Nikki Haley Says Canada Made ‘Deal With the Devil’ With Recent Turn Against Israel at UN (https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/12/06/nikki-haley-says-canada-made-deal-with-the-devil-with-recent-turn-against-israel-at-un)
by Karys Rhea, Algemeiner, 7 Dec 2019

“Two weeks ago, Canada surprised Israel’s friends by voting for a North Korean resolution that challenges the legitimacy of Israel,” Haley noted. “This is a resolution that Canadian governments for years have voted against.”…

Not quite. Unlike the US, Canada retains its recognition of international law.


Speaking on background, an official at Global Affairs Canada said the vote sends a message that Canada does not agree with U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's assertion on Monday that Israeli settlements in the Occupied Territories are "not, per se, inconsistent with international law."

The official added that Canada has in the recent past opposed motions that are consistent with its own policy positions — to send a message that it considered the UN's focus on Israel's sins one-sided and inconsistent with the treatment of other nations. The official said that today's vote reflected core Canadian principles on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which include embracing a two-state solution with viable borders for both peoples.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-palestinian-vote-canada-israel-us-1.5365637

The resolution supported by Canada et al and opposed by the US and Israel (and US client states Marshall Islands, Nauru and the Federated States of Micronesia) was:

The General Assembly...(preamble skipped)
1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,
including the right to their independent State of Palestine;
2. Urges all States and the specialized agencies and organizations of the
United Nations system to continue to support and assist the Palestinian people in the
early realization of their right to self-determination.

https://undocs.org/A/C.3/74/L.58

Note: The preambles are significant components of international agreements, including UN resolutions. Recommended reading

Capablanca-Fan
12-12-2019, 02:19 AM
CP, the quote of Haley shows just how unsuitable she is to be involved in any foreign policy area what so ever.

Haley was one of the best USA ambassadors to the UN in history. If she becomes the Republican presidential nominee in 2024, I would be happy to vote for her.

antichrist
12-12-2019, 06:23 AM
Haley was one of the best USA ambassadors to the UN in history. If she becomes the Republican presidential nominee in 2024, I would be happy to vote for her.

She cut with Trump so her would not become too contaminated making her unelectable when the time come.

antichrist
12-12-2019, 11:55 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

this mob have just carried out a minor mass killing in the USA against more conventionally accepted Jews. These Afro-Americans claim to be biological descendants of Israelites. I guess like all religions they can make up anything they want and are all just as valid/invalid. As Justice Murphy decided in Oz about 45 years ago when it came to Scientology.

Capablanca-Fan
17-12-2019, 08:48 AM
If You Hate Israel, You're No Friend of the Jews (https://www.prageru.com/video/if-you-hate-israel-youre-no-friend-of-the-jews/)
Dennis Prager, Dec 2019

It’s one thing to criticize Israel. It’s another thing entirely to be against the very existence of the Jewish state. In this clarifying video, Dennis Prager defines the difference and explains why anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are one and the same:


Imagine a group of people who work to destroy Italy because, they claim, Italy’s origins are illegitimate. Imagine further that these people maintain that of all the countries in the world, only Italy doesn’t deserve to exist. And then imagine that these people vigorously deny that they are anti-Italian. Would you believe them?

Now substitute “Israel” for “Italy,” and you’ll understand the dishonesty and absurdity of the argument that one can be anti-Zionist—that is, against the existence of a Jewish state—but not anti-Semitic.

But that is precisely what anti-Zionists say. They argue that Israel’s existence is illegitimate. They don’t believe this of any other country in the world, no matter how bloody its origins. And then they get offended when they’re accused of being anti-Semitic.

Finally, the anti-Zionists claim that Israel’s origins are illegitimate. Of all the world’s 200-plus countries, the only country anti-Zionists declare illegitimate is also the only Jewish one. That’s pretty much all you need to know about their motives. Why, for example, don’t they make this claim about Pakistan? In 1947, nine months before the establishment of Israel, India was partitioned into a Muslim state—Pakistan, and a Hindu state—India.

Unlike Israel, Pakistan had never existed before. Unlike Israel’s founding, which created about 700,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands and about 700,000 Arab refugees from what became Israel, the founding of Pakistan created about 7 million Muslim refugees from India and about 7 million Hindu refugees from Pakistan. And while the highest estimate of Arab deaths in the fighting that took place when Israel was established is 10,000, the number of deaths as a result of Pakistan’s creation is around 1 million.

So why is Israel’s legitimacy challenged while Pakistan’s isn’t? There is only one answer: Israel is the one Jewish state.

Ian Murray
17-12-2019, 09:28 AM
If You Hate Israel, You're No Friend of the Jews (https://www.prageru.com/video/if-you-hate-israel-youre-no-friend-of-the-jews/)
Dennis Prager, Dec 2019

It’s one thing to criticize Israel. It’s another thing entirely to be against the very existence of the Jewish state. In this clarifying video, Dennis Prager defines the difference and explains why anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are one and the same:...

So by definition I'm not anti-semitic. I knew that.

antichrist
17-12-2019, 11:52 AM
So by definition I'm not anti-semitic. I knew that.

As I am a genuine Semite I get a free pass. Lloyd Fell also claimed the same privilege.

antichrist
17-12-2019, 12:02 PM
If you check out this activist who was being awarded by a Holocaust museum in Belgium


Belgian Holocaust museum cancels event honoring anti-Israel activist Jewish groups had protested planned recognition of Brigitte Herremans, who claimed pro-Israel lobbyists ‘vastly inflate ...
Images of Brigitte Herreman Belgian Museum

BDS activist to be honored as ‘peace envoy’ at Belgian ...
https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Antisemitism/BDS-activist-to-be-honored-as-peace-envoy...

11/12/2019 · BDS activist to be honored as ‘peace envoy’ at Belgian Holocaust memorial Brigitte Herremans will receive the “ambassador for peace” prize from Belgian Catholic NGO Pax …
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Honesty can hurt . Some highly moralistic Jewish Israel's even cancel their Israel citizenship due to Israel's actions.

Capablanca-Fan
19-12-2019, 03:10 AM
That's not what Dershowitz said (my italics):

The central aspect of the rule of law is that no one may be investigated, prosecuted or impeached unless his conduct violates pre-existing and unambiguous prohibitions. Neither Congress nor prosecutors can make it up as they go along, because they, too, are not above the law.
So he is saying that a person can't even be investigated unless there is already evidence that they have committed a crime!

No, he is saying that a person should not be investigated unless they know that any crime has been committed. Dershowitz argues that the actions alleged don't amount to crimes, i.e. violations of existing laws.


The first half of Law and Order would be a lot shorter if that were the case:

Detective Briscoe: Does this person have an alibi for the night of the murder?
Detective Green: We can't ask him - the Dershowitz rule means we already have to have evidence that he committed the crime before we can investigate him for it.
Detective Briscoe: I'm glad I'm retiring next year!

No, murder is a known crime, because there is a clear law against it. The issue here is that abuse of power (vaguely defined as any constitutionally authorized power exercised by the President that the Dems don't like) and obstruction of Congress (but the executive and legislative branches are equal) are not crimes in the first place.

If you want a better [I]Law and Order comparison, it would be investigating someone for nothing but having gay sex (borrowing from Dershowitz's example elsewhere), because this is not a crime.

antichrist
19-12-2019, 08:42 AM
Hey Capa have you sleepwalk with this post.

Patrick Byrom
19-12-2019, 02:00 PM
No, he is saying that a person should not be investigated unless they know that any crime has been committed. Dershowitz argues that the actions alleged don't amount to crimes, i.e. violations of existing laws.Dershowitz clearly said: "his conduct violates pre-existing and unambiguous prohibitions". In other words, a person can't be investigated unless there is already evidence against him - Catch 22!

Patrick Byrom
19-12-2019, 02:02 PM
Hey Capa have you sleepwalk with this post.Maybe he wants it applied to Netanyahu.

Ian Murray
06-01-2020, 12:21 PM
2 teens arrested in West Bank said to have been en route to ‘price tag’ attack (https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-israeli-teens-arrested-in-west-bank-for-security-related-offense/)
Times of Israel
2.1.20

... A security official told The Times of Israel then that there had been a notable increase in settler violence targeting Palestinians surrounding the Bat Ayin settlement in recent weeks. ...

He added that the current situation in the West Bank was reminiscent of the lead-up to the 2015 firebombing of the Dawabsha family home in the village of Duma, a terror attack that killed a couple and their baby.

antichrist
07-01-2020, 07:52 AM
2 teens arrested in West Bank said to have been en route to ‘price tag’ attack (https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-israeli-teens-arrested-in-west-bank-for-security-related-offense/)
Times of Israel
2.1.20

... A security official told The Times of Israel then that there had been a notable increase in settler violence targeting Palestinians surrounding the Bat Ayin settlement in recent weeks. ...

He added that the current situation in the West Bank was reminiscent of the lead-up to the 2015 firebombing of the Dawabsha family home in the village of Duma, a terror attack that killed a couple and their baby.
Many of those Palestinians are original Jews that were forced to convert to Islam by HRH Mohammed. They are being killed by Jewish converts - a bit ironic.

Capablanca-Fan
13-01-2020, 01:12 PM
These women traveled 4 hours with 5 trucks of supplies to cook meals for exhausted Australian firefighters (https://www.wral.com/these-women-traveled-4-hours-with-5-trucks-of-supplies-to-cook-meals-for-exhausted-australian-firefighters/18871171/)
By Amanda Jackson, CNN

As bushfires raged around them, the ladies of the Australian Islamic Centre felt compelled to help out their community.

The group from Newport, Victoria, a suburb of Melbourne, filled five trucks full of donated supplies and raised $1,500 in only 48 hours. They traveled, along with other volunteers, more than four hours to distribute the supplies to victims, according to Rashid Elhouli, who oversees online public relations for the Australian Islamic Centre.

They didn't stop there.

When they arrived to Johnsonville, the ladies cooked breakfast for 150 firefighters.

Capablanca-Fan
13-01-2020, 01:43 PM
Iran's sole female Olympic medalist says she's defected (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/12/middleeast/iran-kimia-alizadeh-defects/?hpt=ob_blogfooterold)
By Vasco Cotovio, CNN, 12 Jan 2020

Iran's sole female Olympic medalist, Kimia Alizadeh, has announced that she's permanently left her country for Europe.

"Let me start with a greeting, a farewell or condolences," the 21-year-old wrote in an Instagram post explaining why she was defecting. "I am one of the millions of oppressed women in Iran who they have been playing with for years."

Alizadeh became the first Iranian woman to win an Olympic medal after claiming bronze in the 57kg category of Taekwondo at the 2016 Rio Olympics.

Affectionately known in Iran as "The Tsunami," Alizadeh announced she was leaving her birth country amid searing criticism of the regime in Tehran.

"They took me wherever they wanted. I wore whatever they said. Every sentence they ordered me to say, I repeated. Whenever they saw fit, they exploited me," she wrote, adding that credit for her success always went to those in charge.

"I wasn't important to them. None of us mattered to them, we were tools," Alizadeh added, explaining that while the regime celebrated her medals, it criticized the sport she had chosen: "The virtue of a woman is not to stretch her legs!"

antichrist
17-01-2020, 11:26 PM
I have just come across Middle East Monitor that has excellent articles on the desperate plight of Palestinians.

antichrist
01-02-2020, 04:56 PM
As Capa Fan states in the British poll thread? How dare people want independence?

If is good enough for the British then why not also for the Palestinians?

Ian Murray
01-02-2020, 07:12 PM
Israeli youth on Gaza border raise money for Australian firefighters (https://plus61j.net.au/australia/israeli-youth-gaza-border-raise-money-australian-firefighters/)

... three 16-year-olds organised an online donation campaign to support the people of NSW. None of them have ever been down under or even met an Australian before. ...

antichrist
01-02-2020, 08:00 PM
Israeli youth on Gaza border raise money for Australian firefighters (https://plus61j.net.au/australia/israeli-youth-gaza-border-raise-money-australian-firefighters/)

... three 16-year-olds organised an online donation campaign to support the people of NSW. None of them have ever been down under or even met an Australian before. ...

Israel had been using this trick for years to earn GW to gloss over her crim record sheet. And it is working on simple people and unprincipled leaders

Capablanca-Fan
15-02-2020, 02:27 PM
The United Nations Once Again Proves Its Anti-Semitism (https://townhall.com/columnists/davidharsanyi/2020/02/14/the-united-nations-once-again-proves-its-antisemitism-n2561321)
David HarsanyiDavid Harsanyi | 14 Feb 2020

The depraved totalitarians, nefarious barbarians, two-bit gangsters, odious scoundrels and bigoted scum who run the United Nations recently set up a new "database" to help anti-Semites around the world target Jewish businesses in the disputed territories of Judea and Samaria—businesses that not only offer economic opportunities for Palestinians but opportunities that pay higher than most other jobs in the West Bank.

In no other international dispute—and there are hundreds of global conflicts—does the United Nations target peaceful civilians or institutions. Certainly in no place do they work to destroy the businesses of noncombatants based on their ethnicity or religion. The 112 companies on the U.N.'s list are run and staffed, no doubt, by people with diverse viewpoints, at least some of whom likely support the creation of a Palestinian state. All of them create jobs, products and services that foster cooperation.

In 2018, while the Bashar al-Assad regime was gassing its own women and children and thousands of civilians were dying in a vicious civil war, the Human Rights Council passed only two condemnations directed at the Syrian regime but five directed at the Jewish state. Incidentally, Israel was delivering aid to refugees of that conflict at the time.

The only other countries to receive even one condemnation in 2018 were South Sudan, Myanmar, Iran and the slave state of North Korea. The United Nations has drafted so many anti-Israel resolutions that I've noticed people have given up on entering them into Wikipedia.

Ian Murray
16-02-2020, 10:06 AM
The United Nations Once Again Proves Its Anti-Semitism
David HarsanyiDavid Harsanyi | 14 Feb 2020


I note that nowhere in that article does it mention that operating businesses or expropriating land and resources within Israeli settlements in the West Bank is in violation of international law. If businesses do so to cash in on the generous incentives and subsidies provided by the Israeli government, then they should rightly be held to account for the concomitant abuses of the rights of Palestinians.


Israeli settlements in the West Bank violate the laws of occupation. The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring its citizens into the territory it occupies and from transferring or displacing the population of an occupied territory within or outside the territory. ...

Israel’s confiscation of land, water, and other natural resources for the benefit of settlements and residents of Israel also violate the Hague Regulations of 1907, which prohibit an occupying power from expropriating the resources of occupied territory for its own benefit. In addition, Israel’s settlement project violates international human rights law, in particular, Israel’s discriminatory policies against Palestinians that govern virtually every aspect of life in the area of the West Bank under Israel’s exclusive control, known as Area C, and that forcibly displace Palestinians while encouraging the growth of Jewish settlements. ...

by virtue of doing business in or with settlements or settlement businesses, companies contribute to one or more of these violations of international humanitarian law and human rights abuses. Settlement businesses depend on and benefit from Israel’s unlawful confiscation of Palestinian land and other resources, and facilitate the functioning and growth of settlements. Settlement-related activities also directly benefit from Israel’s discriminatory policies in planning and zoning, the allocation of land, natural resources, financial incentives, and access to utilities and infrastructure. These policies result in the forced displacement of Palestinians and place Palestinians at an enormous disadvantage in comparison with settlers. Israel’s discriminatory restrictions on Palestinians have harmed the Palestinian economy and left many Palestinians dependent on jobs in settlements—a dependency that settlement proponents then cite to justify settlement businesses. ...

businesses are expected to undertake human rights due diligence to identify and mitigate contributions to human rights violations of not only their own activities but also activities to which they are directly linked by their business relationships. They are also expected to take effective steps to avoid or mitigate potential human rights harms—and to consider ending business activity where severe negative human rights consequences cannot be avoided or mitigated. ...

In Human Rights Watch’s view, the context of human rights abuse to which settlement business activity contributes is so pervasive and severe that businesses should cease carrying out activities inside or for the benefit of settlements, such as building housing units or infrastructure, or providing waste removal and landfill services. They should also stop financing, administering, trading with or otherwise supporting settlements or settlement-related activities and infrastructure. ...

https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/01/19/occupation-inc/how-settlement-businesses-contribute-israels-violations-palestinian

ER
05-03-2020, 06:08 AM
I think this is the most relevant thread to transfer the post from the Asylum thread

Greece was the only European state that voted against the UN recognition of Israel as an independed state in 1947!
In recent years this situation has been corrected considerably and the two countries enjoy a very good co-operation culturally, trade and military.

Greece like Australia, has not fully formalized relations with "Palestine" due to many geopolitical disputes, despite the pledges of the ex-Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras who is a member
of the left-wing Syriza Party known for its support for the "Palestinian" cause, to make such changes. Therefore, relations between the two countries have worsened considerably. (Wikipedia)

Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting (1948):

In favour of recognition of Israel: 33

Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstained: 10
Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

antichrist
07-03-2020, 10:38 AM
You may find that twenty years later some of those same countries voted to declare Zionism as racism.

antichrist
14-05-2020, 07:37 PM
https://www.meforum.org/campus-watch/58426/supporters-some-protesters-attend-not-backing

In 28 states of USA pro- Palestinian discussion has been curtailed on grounds of anti-semitism

Ian Murray
15-05-2020, 08:58 AM
After three inconclusive elections, Israel is settling for a power-sharing government led by Netanyahu and Benny Gantz.Both sides are committed to annexing part of the West Bank, in flagrant disregard of international law

Netanyahu's emergency unity government will fight the pandemic — but fail Palestinians (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/netanyahu-s-emergency-unity-government-fighting-pandemic-failing-palestinians-ncna1205246)

antichrist
15-05-2020, 09:18 AM
After three inconclusive elections, Israel is settling for a power-sharing government led by Netanyahu and Benny Gantz.Both sides are committed to annexing part of the West Bank, in flagrant disregard of international law

Netanyahu's emergency unity government will fight the pandemic — but fail Palestinians (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/netanyahu-s-emergency-unity-government-fighting-pandemic-failing-palestinians-ncna1205246)

The rest of Palestinine including Jordan should surrender to Israel as well then the Arabs will have a majority of votes- that would teach them.

Ian Murray
15-05-2020, 06:02 PM
The rest of Palestinine including Jordan should surrender to Israel as well then the Arabs will have a majority of votes- that would teach them.

Not necessary - Israel is already on the brink of seeing Israeli Jews outnumbered by Israeli Arabs. Expect steps being taken to lower the nationality status somehow of the Arab majority.

Capablanca-Fan
07-07-2020, 02:26 PM
How Palestinians Terrorize Their Own People (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16196/palestinians-censorship-terror)
by Bassam Tawil, Gatestone Institute, 6 July 2020


"We see corruption everywhere. Is the Palestinian Authority headed towards self-destruction? Or is it just destroying the [Palestinian] people so that its own sons and relatives can rise to power?" — Nadia Harhash, journalist, who awoke on June 1, 2020 to find her car being torched, raialyoum.com.
Instead of heeding the call of the Palestinian Coalition for Accountability and Integrity and many Palestinians to end nepotism and ensure accountability and transparency, the PA has chosen to remain silent.
Thanks to the criminal negligence of the international community and the so-called human rights organizations, however, the Palestinian Authority leadership can simply continue to pursue its policy of deadly intimidation against Palestinian journalists. These groups are much too busy drafting condemnations of Israel to have time left over to expose the true Palestinian menace: the Palestinian Authority.

The leadership of the Western-funded Palestinian Authority (PA) has again proved that it does not—and will not—tolerate any form of criticism, particularly when it comes from its own people. In the past few days, at least three Palestinian journalists have fallen victim to the PA's long-time policy of terrorizing and silencing dissenting voices.

PA leaders have always resorted to various methods to silence and intimidate their critics. These methods include, among other things, arrests, recurring summons' for interrogation, dismissal from work, and physical and psychological abuse.

The PA leadership has drawn deeper from its well of malevolent creativity to muzzle Palestinians from expressing critique: they are now also torching private cars.

This is an old technique of Palestinian activists to silence voices that dare to speak out against corruption, embezzlement of public funds and abuse of power.

The victims of car-torching are considered "lucky": fire is directed at their property and not their bodies -- it is better to have your car set on fire for your views than to get shot or stabbed for them. Torching cars has a twofold goal: to inflict financial damage and to send a deterrent message to both the victim and the surrounding environment.

Ian Murray
07-07-2020, 06:01 PM
How Palestinians Terrorize Their Own People
by Bassam Tawil, Gatestone Institute, 6 July 2020


With the aim of distracting attention as Israel gets set to illegally annex occupied Palestinian territory

antichrist
31-07-2020, 05:45 PM
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/seth-rogen-israel-creation-fed-lies-social-media-divided

Seth Rogen says he was fed lies about the creation of Israel. Social media is divided

and

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/seth-rogen-israel-occupation-palestine

Why It Matters That Seth Rogen Spoke Out Against Israel

ER
31-07-2020, 06:16 PM
From the same publication some more important news from Hezbollah country (Lebanon)..

4369

Full story here

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/lebanon-financial-crisis-children-starve-death

ER
04-08-2020, 11:28 PM
I hope this doesn't escalate... with all the other hotspot troubled areas in the Middle East, it could cause a full catastophe.
Israel, however, keep on their main military policy not to suffer fools gladly.

4381

The full article of the New York Times here

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/ap-ml-israel-syria.html

Kevin Bonham
07-08-2020, 12:19 AM
Posts moved

Beirut explosion posts moved to http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18132-Beirut-explosion-(sf-Israel-Palestine) as this doesn't appear to be a terrorism-related incident or a direct product of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Any discussion of this decision may occur in the Help and Feedback section only.

antichrist
10-08-2020, 01:47 PM
discussing any possible terrorist link etc to the bombing. I am only guessing but that explosive could have been for making bombs to attack Israel with but was discovered and diverted. Then years later accidentally caught fire due to carelessness. If Israel had not being created by violence etc. then that explosive may not have been in Lebanon at all as there would have no battle against Israel.

Capablanca-Fan
17-08-2020, 01:32 PM
Israel-UAE Deal is a Win-Win for Peace (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16358/israel-uae-deal-peace)
by Alan M. Dershowitz, Gatestone Institute, 16 August 2020


The United Arab Emirates will derive many benefits from closer relationships with the Middle East's most stable and advanced county. These include economic and technological partnerships, military and intelligence sharing, mutual tourism and better relationships with the US and much of the rest of the world.
The deal also demonstrates how quickly changes occur in this volatile part of the globe. It was only a few decades ago when Israel's strongest allies were Iran and Turkey, and its most intractable enemies were Egypt, Jordan and the Gulf states. Now the reverse is true. The only constant constructive element in the region is a democratic Israel, with its close ties to the United States.
The other constant — but a destructive one— has been the Palestinian leadership. They constantly say no to everything that involves normalization with Israel. This stance goes back to the 1930s when they rejected the Peel Commission recommendation that would have given them a state in the vast majority of the British Mandate. But because it would also have given the Jews a tiny, non-contiguous state, the Palestinians said no. They wanted there not to be a Jewish state more than they wanted there to be a Palestinian state. This naysaying... continues today with their refusal even to negotiate over the Trump peace plan.

Most US Democratic Party leaders including presidential candidate Joe Biden and his vice-presidential pick, Kamala Harris, have praised the deal. One of the very few prominent Americans who belittled the agreement, nevertheless, was Ben Rhodes, a foreign policy adviser to former President Barack Obama, who was instrumental in making the terrible deal with Iran that essentially green-lighted the mullahs' quest for a nuclear arsenal. Ironically and perversely, it was the pro- Iranian policy of Obama and Rhodes that contributed to the fear that drove the UAE closer to Israel. The Emirates know that Israel will never allow Iran to develop or acquire nuclear weapons, no matter what it takes to stop them. For the rest of the world — including the US— a nuclear Iran is a regional diplomatic problem. For Israel, it is an existential threat. For the Gulf States, it poses a serious threat to their regimes.

Ian Murray
18-08-2020, 09:48 AM
In UAE Deal, Netanyahu Trades Imaginary Annexation for Real Life Diplomacy Win (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-in-uae-deal-netanyahu-trades-imaginary-annexation-for-real-life-diplomacy-win-1.9071474?v=1597707670863)

Benjamin Netanyahu never had a real plan for annexing parts of the West Bank. There was no timetable, no map, no draft resolution to be brought to the government or the Knesset. Just a pile of broken election promises and a lot of empty talk. On Thursday, that plan he never planned to carry out has bought him a significant diplomatic coup.

The joint declaration with the United Arab Emirates is not yet a full peace plan. There is no clear commitment from the Emiratis on doing anything yet, certainly not opening embassies in either country any time soon. But this remains the most visible and concrete recognition by an Arab Gulf region state of the hitherto secret alliance with Israel. It is an achievement for Netanyahu that his predecessors, who were prepared to make major concessions to the Palestinians, only dreamed of ...

Patrick Byrom
22-08-2020, 12:36 PM
The Trump administration wants it both ways with the Iran deal. On the one hand, they withdrew from it, claiming that it was a terrible deal; on the other hand they are trying to use it (after they've withdrawn!) to trigger sanctions (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/21/us-iran-sanctions-un-mike-pompeo):

The extent of US isolation at the UN has been driven home by formal letters from 13 of the 15 security council members opposing Trump administration attempts to extend the economic embargo on Iran. The letters by the council members were all issued in the 24 hours since the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, came to the UN’s New York headquarters to declare Iran in non-compliance with a 2015 nuclear deal. Under that deal (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA), comprehensive UN sanctions on Iran would be restored 30 days after the declaration. But almost every other council member has issued letters saying that the US has no standing to trigger this sanctions “snapback” because it left the JCPOA in May 2018.

Capablanca-Fan
17-09-2020, 12:32 AM
How Trump Defied the Experts and Forged a Breakthrough in the Middle East (https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/09/how-trump-defied-the-experts-and-forged-a-breakthrough-in-the-middle-east)
The UAE–Israel deal showed that the conventional wisdom was wrong.
By RICH LOWRY, National Review, 15 Sep 2020

Trump’s Bold Moves Set the Predicate

The story of the diplomatic breakthrough is, at bottom, one of Trump making bold moves in the region, which set the conditions for new thinking to work, even as elite opinion was starkly — and, of course, unapologetically — wrong every step of the way.

Rather than ending any possibility of peace in the region, moving the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem forged a tight relationship of trust with Israel that made everything else possible.

Rather than alienating our allies, pulling out of the Iran deal drew our allies in the region closer to us.

Rather than causing a war, as even some of Trump’s ideological allies feared, the killing of Soleimani sent an unmistakable message of resolve. “I think that the Soleimani killing was a huge boon,” says the senior administration official, “because it showed that the president was bold and was serious, and I think that shifted the Middle East massively.”

A Fresh Approach

Of course, all of this ran exactly counter to Barack Obama’s strategy in the region. As a State Department official puts it: “When we came into office, the United States and the prior administration had alienated our Gulf partners, Israel, and the Palestinians, which is really hard to do. They had tried to accommodate Iran and to strengthen Iran as part of a larger gamble that it would moderate Iran.”

It’s possible that the new state of play could create an opening for political change among the Palestinians. Says the U.S. negotiator:


I think the Palestinian people look around and they say to themselves, “Wait a second. Why is it that those countries can sit at the table, but our leadership has chosen the path of just completely, obstinately sticking out, saying, ‘We’re not going to negotiate with you’?”

“Who loses in this?” asks Adam Boehler, who, as head of the U.S. International Development Finance Corporation, has been heavily involved in the economic diplomacy. “Iran and the Palestinian Authority leadership because their strategy isn’t working. Ultimately, it will be better for the Palestinians. The administration has been clear that we want to invest in the economic security of the Palestinian people, and I hope that this empowers them to demand needed change from their leadership.”

Regardless, one thing is clear: The conventional wisdom in the Middle East needs an upgrade.

Capablanca-Fan
17-09-2020, 02:10 AM
The Abraham Accords Peace Deal How Trump Made It Happen (https://lidblog.com/abraham-accord-peace-deal/)
by Jeff Dunetz, The Lid, 15 Sep 2020

Trump correctly figured out that many of the moderate Arab States were tiring of the Palestinians refusal to even try to make peace. They were tired of having to carry the Palestinians and were already dealing with Israel behind the scenes. The ones already working with Israel were the Sunni-led states like UAE and Bahrain (and the Saudis), because of their fear of Shia Iran.

But two things had to happen before the U.S. could take advantage of that gulf states’ frustration. Trump had to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and move the U.S. embassy there. What this did was take the religious component out of the equation. The Arab States who made peace would not be conceding the Muslim’s third holiest city to Israel, now that it’s a done deal.

The second move Trump had to make was making America energy independent. With that independence, no oil-producing nation could claim economic leverage over the United States.

The next moves were the “out of the box” ones. As you may remember, the supposed peace experts of previous administrations always claimed that no Arab country would ever formalize ties with Israel before a Palestinian state was created. Trump figured out that if he started with the “low-hanging fruit,” the rest of the Arab world, beginning with the ones physically closest to Iran, a breakthrough was possible.

Ian Murray
25-01-2021, 09:35 AM
The terrorism goes on, and on ...

When police kill a settler, settlers rain terror on Palestinians (https://www.972mag.com/settler-violence-tawamin-west-bank/)

Last month, on Dec. 21, Israeli police led a high-speed chase near the settlement of Kochav Hashachar in the occupied West Bank. The car being pursued was carrying several young, radical Israeli settlers who were suspected of throwing rocks at oncoming Palestinian vehicles just moments before. During the chase, the police car reportedly slammed into the settlers’ car, flipping it over, and killing 16-year-old Ahuvia Sandak. ...

Sandak’s death sparked a series of protests in the West Bank and Israel, followed by an outburst of violence against Palestinians — who had nothing to do with Sandak’s death — in the occupied territories ...

Capablanca-Fan
08-02-2021, 11:11 AM
Will the Trump Successes in the Middle East Survive? (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17032/trump-successes-middle-east)
by Guy Milličre, Gatestone Institute, 7 Feb 2021

The Abraham Accords—between Israel, the UAE and Bahrain—will lead to billions of dollars of investment and trade between Israel and its partners in peace. The Accords will also allow the Emirates and Bahrain to benefit from Israeli technology, and see their defense strengthened against Iran.

Sudan, freshly removed from the list of terrorist states, now has help from Israel, one of the world-leaders in agricultural technologies, and will be able to improve its food production.

President Trump added to the agreement the recognition of Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara, a territory claimed by a guerrilla group supported by Algeria and more recently by the Islamic Republic of Iran and Hezbollah. President Trump's decision strengthens Morocco, an ally of the United States, and refuses to reward enemies of the United States.

Saudi Arabia's educational curricula are being modified in a direction of tolerance and all traces of anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli statements have been removed. The religious discourse in the country is also changing.... Saudi Arabia's Grand Mufti, now says that religion should be spread through words, not through the sword....Saudi Arabia is... moving in an extremely promising direction. Let us hope that outside forces do not thwart it.

The outline of a more stable Middle East, less marked by war, appears to be taking shape—if other countries will just let it. The mullahs' regime, no longer a major nuisance, seems on the road to asphyxiation. Let us hope that process is not thwarted, either.

The new Biden administration, in under two weeks, is already threatening to undermine these and other victories. It had indicated...that it would like to return to the catastrophic nuclear "Iran deal".... [New] conditions seem to boil down to a demand that Iran respect the terms of the JCPOA, which Iran has, in fact, never respected. Evidently perceiving an American wishing to appease it, the mullahs announced on January 4 that they had decided to resume enriching uranium to the 20% level, close to the purity used for nuclear weapons. The same day, the mullahs seized a South Korean-flagged chemical tanker in the Strait of Hormuz.

The Biden administration also seems eager to restore U.S. aid to the Palestinian Authority and reconnect with its leaders—without talking to them about their support for terrorism, treating them again, as "partners for peace", no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, and attempting to move toward renewed support yet again for a potentially lethal "two-state solution".

Presumably Iran can only want to weaken the agreements between Israel, Bahrain, the Emirates, Morocco and Sudan.

Patrick Byrom
08-02-2021, 06:51 PM
Will the Trump Successes in the Middle East Survive? (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17032/trump-successes-middle-east) by Guy Milličre, Gatestone Institute, 7 Feb 2021

... The new Biden administration, in under two weeks, is already threatening to undermine these and other victories. It had indicated...that it would like to return to the catastrophic nuclear "Iran deal".... [New] conditions seem to boil down to a demand that Iran respect the terms of the JCPOA, which Iran has, in fact, never respected. Evidently perceiving an American wishing to appease it, the mullahs announced on January 4 that they had decided to resume enriching uranium to the 20% level, close to the purity used for nuclear weapons. The same day, the mullahs seized a South Korean-flagged chemical tanker in the Strait of Hormuz. ... I'm glad you recognise that Trump and his supporters are living in a fantasy world when they claim that he won the election. However, he was still President on January 4, so any action taken by Iran on that date was his responsibility to deal with, not Biden's.

Capablanca-Fan
23-02-2021, 10:25 AM
The ICC has some nerve to target Israel (https://nypost.com/2019/12/29/the-icc-has-some-nerve-to-target-israel/)
By Josh Hammer, NY Post, 29 Dec 2019

Among the institutions of the so-called international community, anti-Israel bias is so prevalent and obvious, it’s taken for granted and almost funny. The year-end statistics from the UN General Assembly tell nearly the whole story: Of the 25 condemnatory resolutions passed this year, 18 targeted the world’s sole Jewish state.

As I said, almost funny.

But now a more serious threat looms. The United Nations, for all its institutionalized anti-Semitism, remains a toothless body. Not so the Hague-based International Criminal Court, whose judgments can make life miserable for Israeli leaders and soldiers, rendering them vulnerable to arrest abroad.

On Dec. 20, Fatou Bensouda, a Gambian who has served as the ICC’s chief prosecutor since 2012, announced her intention to formally investigate the “situation in Palestine” and alleged Israeli war crimes that “have been or are being committed there.”

Bensouda served as a prosecutor and later justice minister under Gambia’s iron-fisted former dictator Yahya Jammeh. Speaking *before a Gambian truth-and-reconciliation commission, one dissident accused her of “masterminding” the torture he suffered. (Bensouda has denied knowledge of this torture.)

No wonder she is bent on making a scapegoat of Jews. Specifically, she wants to probe Israel’s military operations in the Gaza Strip during the last full-scale war against Hamas, in 2014. She also plans to investigate the Jewish state’s response to Hamas’ attempt last year to infiltrate the border fence that separates Israel from the terrorist-run territory.

Israel should lead a team of like-minded *allies in to fight the ICC jackals, including by exposing Bensouda’s own checkered past and her (at a minimum) alleged tacit involvement in *African human-rights violations. The Jewish, democratic and rule-of-law state of Israel doesn’t need a Gambian dictator’s lackey to lecture it on the ethics of war and peace.

Ian Murray
23-02-2021, 07:29 PM
... The Jewish, democratic and rule-of-law state of Israel doesn’t need a Gambian dictator’s lackey to lecture it on the ethics of war and peace.

Jews and non-Jews are not treated equally

Israel: A Democratic State? (https://www.e-ir.info/2019/08/25/israel-a-democratic-state/)

... Although East Jerusalem has been explicitly integrated into the Israeli polity, Israel has refrained from extending full citizenship rights to all inhabitants of Jerusalem, in clear violation of democratic values. Moreover, the Israeli reign over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would only not violate democratic standards if occupation were temporary. However, after more than fifty years of colonizing East Jerusalem and the West Bank and more than ten years of blockading the Gaza Strip, the assumption that occupation is temporary lacks plausibility. It is very unlikely that Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories will come to an end in the foreseeable future, particularly as since the millennium, no serious Israeli attempt at implementing the Palestinian right to self-determination has been empirically observable. As Israel has established an undemocratic reign in Jerusalem and as it is highly doubtful whether it honestly intends to terminate occupation in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, Western justification for strongly supporting Israel in their foreign policies and containing the BDS movement on the basis of portraying Israel as a democratic state is not well-grounded.

Ian Murray
20-04-2021, 09:25 AM
Attempting to retain power in Israel, Bibi provokes regional tensions

Shadow warrior: Benjamin Netanyahu takes a dangerous gamble with Iran (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/18/shadow-warrior-benjamin-netanyahu-takes-a-dangerous-gamble-with-iran)

In a region famous for warmongers and tyrants, who is the most dangerous man in the Middle East right now? Not Bashar al-Assad, the isolated gauleiter of Damascus. Not disgraced Mohammed bin Salman, the princely Saudi executioner. Not even Turkey’s misogynist-in-chief, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the local neighbourhood bully.

Step forward Benjamin Netanyahu, easily the most convincing contender for the “danger man” title. Israel’s prime minister has outdone himself of late, threatening war with Iran, ordering one-off attacks, assassinating a top scientist, sabotaging international fence-mending, and defying the US, his country’s indispensable ally. ...

Capablanca-Fan
12-05-2021, 03:37 AM
Palestinians: Our True Goal is to Destroy Israel (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17361/palestinian-goal-destroy-israel)
by Bassam Tawil, Gatestone Institute, 11 May 2021


The Palestinians are upset because Jews are being permitted to tour the Temple Mount. The Palestinians do not want to see Jews visiting their holy site; they do not want to see Jews in Jerusalem, and they do not want to see any Jew at all in the land that stretches from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
No one is disputing the Palestinians' right to protest Israeli policies. Yet when the protests turn into large pro-Hamas demonstrations, with calls for bombing Tel Aviv and killing Jews, they expose the true deadly intention of the protesters.
When thousands of Palestinians chant “We are all Mohammed Deif” they are saying that they see themselves as terrorists ready to attack and destroy Israel. They are saying that Deif is their role model because he managed to murder many Jews and remains at large, despite Israeli attempts to apprehend or kill him.
Hamas owes its growing popularity to the anti-Israel inflammatory campaign waged in the Palestinian media, especially social media platforms, the mosques and public rhetoric of Palestinian leaders. Hamas also owes its popularity to the ongoing corruption and incompetence of the Palestinian Authority and its autocratic president, Mahmoud Abbas.
The demonstrations in favor of Hamas should also sound alarm bells with the Biden administration and serve as an accurate indicator as to Palestinian priorities. The Biden administration is talking about reviving the stalled peace process between Israel and the Palestinians on the basis of the “two-state solution”. Hamas and the thousands of Palestinians who chanted slogans in support of Hamas and Deif, however, have a different solution in mind: the annihilation of Israel and the deaths of Jews—the more the merrier.

antichrist
12-05-2021, 06:07 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with dismantling Israel as a state. They are collectively a country of robbers. Some very decent ones have renounced their Israeli citizenship rather than have that stain on their name. They are stateless.

Ian Murray
12-05-2021, 08:21 AM
Sheikh Jarrah and the Renewed Israeli-Palestinian Violence (https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/sheikh-jarrah-and-the-renewed-israeli-palestinian-violence)

Until the evictions, unequal rights, and pervasive discrimination in Jerusalem end, clashes will continue.

... As I write, the worst clashes between Palestinians and Israelis since the 2014 war in Gaza are unfolding. On Monday, Israeli police stormed the al-Aqsa compound, where thousands of worshippers had gathered to defend themselves from encroachment by settlers. Three hundred Palestinians and twenty-one Israeli officers were wounded. Hamas responded by firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza into Israel, some of which struck in Tel Aviv, Ashkelon, and other cities. Israel retaliated with a hundred and thirty air strikes in Gaza. Over the last two days, at least twenty-six Palestinians, including nine children, and two Israelis have been killed.

... For decades, the Israeli national government and Jerusalem’s municipal authorities have pursued policies aimed at increasing the Jewish presence in the city and restricting the expansion of the Palestinian community. Initially, this meant expanding Jerusalem’s borders and building Jewish settlements to the east, outside of the city. Over the past decade, right-wing groups supported by the Israeli government have also spearheaded attempts to increase the Jewish presence in the Palestinian areas at the heart of East Jerusalem. This is the case not only in Sheikh Jarrah, where the settler group Lahav Shomron has been pursuing the eviction of Palestinians, but also in the Silwan neighborhood, where, last November, another settler group, Ateret Cohanim, succeeded in getting an Israeli court to ratify the eviction of eighty-seven Palestinians. ...

MichaelBaron
12-05-2021, 11:17 AM
Palestinians: Our True Goal is to Destroy Israel (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17361/palestinian-goal-destroy-israel)
by Bassam Tawil, Gatestone Institute, 11 May 2021


The Palestinians are upset because Jews are being permitted to tour the Temple Mount. The Palestinians do not want to see Jews visiting their holy site; they do not want to see Jews in Jerusalem, and they do not want to see any Jew at all in the land that stretches from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
No one is disputing the Palestinians' right to protest Israeli policies. Yet when the protests turn into large pro-Hamas demonstrations, with calls for bombing Tel Aviv and killing Jews, they expose the true deadly intention of the protesters.
When thousands of Palestinians chant “We are all Mohammed Deif” they are saying that they see themselves as terrorists ready to attack and destroy Israel. They are saying that Deif is their role model because he managed to murder many Jews and remains at large, despite Israeli attempts to apprehend or kill him.
Hamas owes its growing popularity to the anti-Israel inflammatory campaign waged in the Palestinian media, especially social media platforms, the mosques and public rhetoric of Palestinian leaders. Hamas also owes its popularity to the ongoing corruption and incompetence of the Palestinian Authority and its autocratic president, Mahmoud Abbas.
The demonstrations in favor of Hamas should also sound alarm bells with the Biden administration and serve as an accurate indicator as to Palestinian priorities. The Biden administration is talking about reviving the stalled peace process between Israel and the Palestinians on the basis of the “two-state solution”. Hamas and the thousands of Palestinians who chanted slogans in support of Hamas and Deif, however, have a different solution in mind: the annihilation of Israel and the deaths of Jews—the more the merrier.


And how can you deal with people who have such a goal? Any point in arguing with barbarians?

MichaelBaron
12-05-2021, 11:18 AM
Attempting to retain power in Israel, Bibi provokes regional tensions

Shadow warrior: Benjamin Netanyahu takes a dangerous gamble with Iran (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/18/shadow-warrior-benjamin-netanyahu-takes-a-dangerous-gamble-with-iran)

In a region famous for warmongers and tyrants, who is the most dangerous man in the Middle East right now? Not Bashar al-Assad, the isolated gauleiter of Damascus. Not disgraced Mohammed bin Salman, the princely Saudi executioner. Not even Turkey’s misogynist-in-chief, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the local neighbourhood bully.

Step forward Benjamin Netanyahu, easily the most convincing contender for the “danger man” title. Israel’s prime minister has outdone himself of late, threatening war with Iran, ordering one-off attacks, assassinating a top scientist, sabotaging international fence-mending, and defying the US, his country’s indispensable ally. ...

So terrorists are being ''provoked''? How does it justify terrorism?

Ian Murray
12-05-2021, 12:58 PM
So terrorists are being ''provoked''? How does it justify terrorism?

Define terrorism

Patrick Byrom
12-05-2021, 01:27 PM
And how can you deal with people who have such a goal? Any point in arguing with barbarians?What is your evidence that the Palestinian '"people" have such a goal?

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 12:53 PM
It is sad to see the conflict erupt with violence from both sides, both sides trying to kill the other and to some extent both sides have succeeded.

Both sides are wrong to kill and attempt to kill the other side as all killing is wrong.

Hopefully there will be a ceasefire arranged very soon and Israel does not embark on a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip as this would just lead to more wrong killing by both sides.

antichrist
14-05-2021, 02:32 PM
It is sad to see the conflict erupt with violence from both sides, both sides trying to kill the other and to some extent both sides have succeeded.

Both sides are wrong to kill and attempt to kill the other side as all killing is wrong.

Hopefully there will be a ceasefire arranged very soon and Israel does not embark on a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip as this would just lead to more wrong killing by both sides.

Violence has been used in the modern era to create Israel and to maintain and expand such to the eternal detriment of the then prevailing inhabitants that were a mixture of peoples being for centuries and thousands of years. Zionist extremism further fuelled by the European Holocaust has provided a toxic result paid for every day by the innocent Palestinians. Unfortunately non violence or violence provides no answers. Injustice must be specifically addressed. As Liz Cheney had decided "Here I stand!" The same stance for justice must be adopted by the world for Palestine but don't go on a hunger strike waiting for it. But i appreciate your good intent.

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 02:41 PM
Violence has been used in the modern era to create Israel and to maintain and expand such to the eternal detriment of the then prevailing inhabitants that were a mixture of peoples being for centuries and thousands of years. Zionist extremism further fuelled by the European Holocaust has provided a toxic result paid for every day by the innocent Palestinians. Unfortunately non violence or violence provides no answers. Injustice must be specifically addressed. As Liz Cheney had decided "Here I stand!" The same stance for justice must be adopted by the world for Palestine but don't go on a hunger strike waiting for it. But i appreciate your good intent.

Violence was not used to create Israel, it was created by a vote in the UN, perhaps a mistake. It then defended itself in 1948 and in times since. Still in defending itself it committed killing in war which were inexcusably wrong. Both sides in war are always wrong.

MichaelBaron
14-05-2021, 02:49 PM
So who started it this time? Israel? Did Israel start the escalation by bombing innocent civilians?

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 03:00 PM
So who started it this time? Israel? Did Israel start the escalation by bombing innocent civilians?

Does it really matter who started it? Both sides are willing participants trying to wrongly kill the other side.

Patrick Byrom
14-05-2021, 03:12 PM
Violence was not used to create Israel, it was created by a vote in the UN, perhaps a mistake. It then defended itself in 1948 and in times since. Still in defending itself it committed killing in war which were inexcusably wrong. Both sides in war are always wrong.Violence was definitely involved in the creation of Israel, unfortunately. The group that carried out that violence, Lehi (or the Stern gang) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)) has even been recognised by the government for their contribution towards the establishment of the Israeli state.

Patrick Byrom
14-05-2021, 03:17 PM
So who started it this time? Israel? Did Israel start the escalation by bombing innocent civilians?Israel definitely started the escalation by bombing innocent civilians. The death toll in Gaza is far greater (especially among children) than that in Israel, and there are even reports that Israel is planning to invade Gaza.

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 03:29 PM
Violence was definitely involved in the creation of Israel, unfortunately. The group that carried out that violence, Lehi (or the Stern gang) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)) has even been recognised by the government for their contribution towards the establishment of the Israeli state.

No you are wrong. There was violence before the creation of the state of Israel but it was the vote in the UN that actually created the state of Israel. The violence by anyone before the creation of the state of Israel was wrong.

Capablanca-Fan
14-05-2021, 03:31 PM
Israel definitely started the escalation by bombing innocent civilians. The death toll in Gaza is far greater (especially among children) than that in Israel, and there are even reports that Israel is planning to invade Gaza.

According to the rules of war, the responsibility for death of human shields belongs to those who use them.

There is also no doubt that Hamas targets Israeli civilians, including children, and only the Iron Dome prevented many missiles reaching their intended targets.

Capablanca-Fan
14-05-2021, 03:33 PM
Does it really matter who started it? Both sides are willing participants trying to wrongly kill the other side.

Not so. Israel wants peace, and honours its peace treaties (Egypt and Jordan, and four more Arab nations thanks to Trump's brokering). Hamas has made it crystal clear that it wants to annihilate Israel.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more ‎violence. If the Jews put ‎down their weapons ‎today, there would be no ‎more Israel'‎”
― Benjamin Netanyahu

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
― Golda Meir

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 03:34 PM
Israel definitely started the escalation by bombing innocent civilians. The death toll in Gaza is far greater (especially among children) than that in Israel, and there are even reports that Israel is planning to invade Gaza.

The death toll is a bad measure of the efforts by either side to kill the other side. The Palestinians are trying at least as hard to kill they just do not have the technology to do it as effectively. We should be condemning based on motivation not results. Both sides are in the wrong because both sides are trying to kill. It does not really matter who started it, I doubt a starter can even be determined, as both sides are willing trying to kill.

If Israel invade the Gaza Strip they would be wrong to do so.

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 03:36 PM
Not so. Israel wants peace, and honours its peace treaties (Egypt and Jordan, and four more Arab nations thanks to Trump's brokering). Hamas has made it crystal clear that it wants to annihilate Israel.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more ‎violence. If the Jews put ‎down their weapons ‎today, there would be no ‎more Israel'‎”
― Benjamin Netanyahu

Israel are killing Palestinians, they are wrong to do so, all killing is wrong. Killing is the opposite of peace, if Israel want peace then they should stop killing. Very simple.

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 03:39 PM
According to the rules of war, the responsibility for death of human shields belongs to those who use them.

There is also no doubt that Hamas targets Israeli civilians, including children, and only the Iron Dome prevented many missiles reaching their intended targets.

The whole concept of rules of war is ridiculous. There should be one rule, NO WAR. And this is not a war. Israel is responsible for killing children, this is wrong.

Capablanca-Fan
14-05-2021, 04:10 PM
Israel are killing Palestinians, they are wrong to do so, all killing is wrong. Killing is the opposite of peace, if Israel want peace then they should stop killing. Very simple.
Israel kills only to avoid being killed.


The whole concept of rules of war is ridiculous. There should be one rule, NO WAR.
Israel would like nothing more. But it takes two to have no war. What do you think the Allies should have done about Hitler? Nothing? Sometimes war IS the answer!


And this is not a war. Israel is responsible for killing children, this is wrong.
No, Hamas is responsible for children's deaths when they shoot rockets from places with lots of children.

Ian Murray
14-05-2021, 04:16 PM
The tensions leading to the current open conflict stem from the efforts of Jewish settlers to evict Palestinians from the homes in East Jerusalem they have lived in since 1957 (after being driven from their homes in now-Israeli territory). It reached flashpoint when Israeli police stormed the Al-Aqsa mosque compound during Ramadan prayers, firing munitions into the mosque itself.

Police-protestor violence continued for three days, until Hamas warned Israeli forces to withdraw or face the consequences (an ultimatum which no-one expected Israel to heed). Hamas then commenced its rocket barrages against Israeli cities within range, including Tel Aviv. The IDF responded with air strikes against Gaza City. The air strikes have now been joined by artillery fire.

Israel-Palestine Conflict: Death toll rises to 83 as Gaza conflict intensifies | Here's a timeline of events (https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/israel-palestine-conflict-death-toll-rises-to-83-as-gaza-conflict-intensifies-heres-a-timeline-of-events/ar-BB1gHkZZ)

It seems apparent to me that waving the national security flag suits Netanyahu very well at present, deflecting attention from his inability to form a coalition government and his exposure to criminal corruption charges.

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 04:27 PM
Israel kills only to avoid being killed.

Bullshit



Israel would like nothing more. But it takes two to have no war. What do you think the Allies should have done about Hitler? Nothing? Sometimes war IS the answer!

Allies should have done nothing against Hitler. Getting into a war just lead to the unnecessary deaths of many on both sides. This is getting off topic.



No, Hamas is responsible for children's deaths when they shoot rockets from places with lots of children.

It was Israel's explosives it is Israel's responsibility.

Ian Murray
14-05-2021, 04:38 PM
Bullshit

Couldn't have put it better myself :)

Ian Murray
14-05-2021, 05:14 PM
No, Hamas is responsible for children's deaths when they shoot rockets from places with lots of children.

While IDF bases and installations are sited within Israeli cities and settlements, or behind civilian rocket targets. And Ben-Gurion Airport is a joint civil-military air base.

Israeli Army Accidentally Reveals Secret Bases in Online Map (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-army-secret-bases-online-map-1.9643700)

After Hezbollah Circulated Coordinates of Israeli Military Sites in Urban Areas, Zionist Map Mistake Reveals Secret Bases’ Locations (https://english.almanar.com.lb/1300906)

antichrist
14-05-2021, 05:49 PM
Violence was not used to create Israel, it was created by a vote in the UN, perhaps a mistake. It then defended itself in 1948 and in times since. Still in defending itself it committed killing in war which were inexcusably wrong. Both sides in war are always wrong.

It was only created by the UN after Jewish terrorist groups had terrorized the Arabs off the land, hence the millions of refugees for 70 years.

Note all the recognition of Israel was after the illegal and murderous activities described below.

Here it is from Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Illegal_Jewish_immigration_and_i nsurgency

Illegal Jewish immigration and insurgency
Main articles: Bricha and Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine
See also: Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–46

The British Empire was severely weakened by the war. In the Middle East, the war had made Britain conscious of its dependence on Arab oil. British firms controlled Iraqi oil and Britain ruled Kuwait, Bahrain and the Emirates. Shortly after VE Day, the Labour Party won the general election in Britain. Although Labour Party conferences had for years called for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, the Labour government now decided to maintain the 1939 White Paper policies.[147]


Buchenwald survivors arrive in Haifa to be arrested by the British, 15 July 1945
Illegal migration (Aliyah Bet) became the main form of Jewish entry into Palestine. Across Europe Bricha ("flight"), an organization of former partisans and ghetto fighters, smuggled Holocaust survivors from Eastern Europe to Mediterranean ports, where small boats tried to breach the British blockade of Palestine. Meanwhile, Jews from Arab countries began moving into Palestine overland. Despite British efforts to curb immigration, during the 14 years of the Aliyah Bet, over 110,000 Jews entered Palestine. By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population.[148]

In an effort to win independence, Zionists now waged a guerrilla war against the British. The main underground Jewish militia, the Haganah, formed an alliance called the Jewish Resistance Movement with the Etzel and Stern Gang to fight the British. This alliance was dissolved after the King David bombings. In June 1946, following instances of Jewish sabotage, the British launched Operation Agatha, arresting 2,700 Jews, including the leadership of the Jewish Agency, whose headquarters were raided. Those arrested were held without trial.

On 4 July 1946 a massive pogrom in Poland led to a wave of Holocaust survivors fleeing Europe for Palestine. Three weeks later, Irgun bombed the British Military Headquarters of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 people. In the days following the bombing, Tel Aviv was placed under curfew and over 120,000 Jews, nearly 20% of the Jewish population of Palestine, were questioned by the police. In the US, Congress criticized British handling of the situation and considered delaying loans that were vital to British post-war recovery.[149]

Between 1945 and 1948, 100,000–120,000 Jews left Poland. Their departure was largely organized by Zionist activists in Poland under the umbrella of the semi-clandestine organization Berihah ("Flight").[150] Berihah was also responsible for the organized emigration of Jews from Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, totalling 250,000 (including Poland) Holocaust survivors. The British imprisoned the Jews trying to enter Palestine in the Atlit detainee camp and Cyprus internment camps. Those held were mainly Holocaust survivors, including large numbers of children and orphans. In response to Cypriot fears that the Jews would never leave (since they lacked a state or documentation) and because the 75,000 quota established by the 1939 White Paper had never been filled, the British allowed the refugees to enter Palestine at a rate of 750 per month.

By 1947 the Labour Government was ready to refer the Palestine problem to the newly created United Nations.

Ian Murray
14-05-2021, 10:25 PM
Irish MP Destroys Israel's Ambassador


https://youtu.be/kgyLQ9oKiCk

Scott Colliver
14-05-2021, 10:25 PM
This is what Israel has done.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1WRKBMWUAUlxB8?format=jpg&name=900x900

Patrick Byrom
14-05-2021, 10:38 PM
The death toll is a bad measure of the efforts by either side to kill the other side. The Palestinians are trying at least as hard to kill they just do not have the technology to do it as effectively. We should be condemning based on motivation not results. Both sides are in the wrong because both sides are trying to kill. It does not really matter who started it, I doubt a starter can even be determined, as both sides are willing trying to kill. If Israel invade the Gaza Strip they would be wrong to do so.I wasn't assigning condemnation, just pointing out (in reply to Michael) that the Israelis definitely escalated the conflict. As the Washington Post reported (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israel-gaza-hamas-idf-rockets/2021/05/12/7989b49c-b28e-11eb-bc96-fdf55de43bef_story.html): "Civilians in Israel and the Gaza Strip endured a third day of deadly rocket attacks and airstrikes on Wednesday, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying his government planned to further escalate its military campaign against the militant Hamas group."

I agree with you that both sides are at fault.

antichrist
15-05-2021, 12:49 AM
Violence is the only currency that Israel respects. Gaza was only "given back" due to Israel being no longer able to quell the protests and resistance. Sharon, an infamous militant land robber, finally recognized that there can't be peace while there is occupation so let go of Gaza. His stated intention was to do the same with the Left Bank but he collapsed into coma. Pro Palestinian Israeli Jewish activists are puzzled if Sharon would and could have achieved such letting go of the Left Bank. This war man became a pragmatist for stability. He had Zionist fanatics bundled up and carted off Gaza back to Israel. Only an Israeli can do that. Justice and peace must come from the Israeli side because only they possess the power. Violence beget violence and Israel has always been violent.

Capablanca-Fan
15-05-2021, 10:34 AM
“Israel uses its weapons to protect its citizens. Hamas use their citizens to protect their weapons.”
—Ted Cruz

Ian Murray
15-05-2021, 12:06 PM
“Israel uses its weapons to protect its citizens. Hamas use their citizens to protect their weapons.”
—Ted Cruz

Really? How did daily police assaults on Palestinians at prayer at the Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan, injuring hundreds of civilians, protect Israeli citizens?

Occupied East Jerusalem: Forced expulsions and raids on Al-Aqsa (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/11/forced-expulsion-israeli-mosque-raid-ignite-middle-east-conflict)

Scott Colliver
15-05-2021, 07:43 PM
“Israel uses its weapons to protect its citizens. Hamas use their citizens to protect their weapons.”
—Ted Cruz

Even IF this is true it does not justify Israel killing. Killing is always wrong, self defence does not justify killing.

MichaelBaron
15-05-2021, 09:52 PM
Israel definitely started the escalation by bombing innocent civilians. The death toll in Gaza is far greater (especially among children) than that in Israel, and there are even reports that Israel is planning to invade Gaza.

Are you saying that Terrorism is justified? It was in response to terrorism and clearly not aiming at civilians (unlike Hamas who uses children as human schields)

Ian Murray
15-05-2021, 10:50 PM
Are you saying that Terrorism is justified? It was in response to terrorism and clearly not aiming at civilians (unlike Hamas who uses children as human schields)

Israeli police over five days attacked Palestinians at prayer during Ramadan at the Al-Aqsa mosque, injuring 400-odd civilians while preventing medics from reaching the scene. It was a flagrant breach of Muslim ritual, requiring removal of footwear and washing hands and feet before entering a mosque, to force entry in military boots and fire munitions into the mosque. The predictable result was outrage and anger, followed by throwing shoes, water bottles and anything else at hand at the police. The response was rubber bullets and tear gas.

Hamas, the Gazans defence force, demanded that the police attacks be stopped, or it would take defensive action. The attacks continued so Hamas retaliated with the weapons in its armoury, its short and medium range rockets. Israel retaliated with air strikes against Gaza City, inter alia toppling multi-storey apartment buildings. Artillery later joined the bombardment. And the beat goes on ...

Destroying city buildings clearly has no regard for civilian casualties. And the IDF sites its bases and installations within cities and settlements, behind the civilian populations. Both sides can be accused of using human shields.

MichaelBaron
15-05-2021, 11:32 PM
Israeli police over five days attacked Palestinians at prayer during Ramadan at the Al-Aqsa mosque, injuring 400-odd civilians while preventing medics from reaching the scene. It was a flagrant breach of Muslim ritual, requiring removal of footwear and washing hands and feet before entering a mosque, to force entry in military boots and fire munitions into the mosque. The predictable result was outrage and anger, followed by throwing shoes, water bottles and anything else at hand at the police. The response was rubber bullets and tear gas.

Hamas, the Gazans defence force, demanded that the police attacks be stopped, or it would take defensive action. The attacks continued so Hamas retaliated with the weapons in its armoury, its short and medium range rockets. Israel retaliated with air strikes against Gaza City, inter alia toppling multi-storey apartment buildings. Artillery later joined the bombardment. And the beat goes on ...

Destroying city buildings clearly has no regard for civilian casualties. And the IDF sites its bases and installations within cities and settlements, behind the civilian populations. Both sides can be accused of using human shields.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Or am I missing something? P.S. Israel NEVER uses human shields!

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 12:50 AM
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Or am I missing something? P.S. Israel NEVER uses human shields!

Yes Hamas is a terrorist organisation. It should not exist and it should not be firing rockets into Israel trying, with limited success, to kill Israelis.

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 02:22 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Human_shields - a brief explanation how Hamas exploits the civilians.

Capablanca-Fan
16-05-2021, 03:02 AM
Even IF this is true it does not justify Israel killing. Killing is always wrong, self defence does not justify killing.

Of course it does. Should the Allies not have gone to war to stop Hitler and the Holocaust?

Murder is wrong, but not all killing is murder.

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 03:12 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Human_shields - a brief explanation how Hamas exploits the civilians.

And another quote from Wiki:
On May 2, 2011, Hamas leader and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan by the United States.[546] Haniyeh praised Bin Laden, the founder of the jihadist organization al-Qaeda, as a "martyr" and an "Arab holy warrior".[547][548] The United States government condemned his remarks as "outrageous".[549] Hamas has reportedly maintained operational and financial ties with al Qaeda.[550]

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 06:19 AM
Of course it does. Should the Allies not have gone to war to stop Hitler and the Holocaust?

Murder is wrong, but not all killing is murder.

No, what the Allies did was wrong.

All killing is wrong.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 06:26 AM
And another quote from Wiki:
On May 2, 2011, Hamas leader and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan by the United States.[546] Haniyeh praised Bin Laden, the founder of the jihadist organization al-Qaeda, as a "martyr" and an "Arab holy warrior".[547][548] The United States government condemned his remarks as "outrageous".[549] Hamas has reportedly maintained operational and financial ties with al Qaeda.[550]

The killing of Osama bin Laden was wrong, Obama wrongly killed bin Laden and should be punished along with the Seals who actually shot him.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 06:58 AM
Hamas has announced it will continue its wrong actions by targeting Tel Aviv at midnight, in a few minutes, with rockets. HAMAS SHOULD STOP IMMEDIATELY.

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 09:45 AM
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Or am I missing something?

Also from your source Wikipedia:


Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan and the United States classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom classify only its military wing as a terrorist organization. It is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Is non-state terrorism (e.g. by Hamas) worse than state-sponsored terrorism (e.g. by Israel)?


P.S. Israel NEVER uses human shields!

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620)

Israeli Soldiers Continue To Use Children As Human Shields (https://countercurrents.org/pmonitor140510.htm)

Busting the myth of Palestinian ‘human shields’ in Gaza (https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/busting-the-myth-of-palestinian-human-shields-in-gaza-46645)

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 09:54 AM
Hamas has announced it will continue its wrong actions by targeting Tel Aviv at midnight, in a few minutes, with rockets. HAMAS SHOULD STOP IMMEDIATELY.

Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against deadly force? If so, how, considering the overwhelming military might deployed against them?

Firing rockets towards civilian centres is deplorable, but Israel will not allow Hamas to build conventional army and air forces to fight on equal terms, so Hamas utilises whatever it can, from the early homemade Qassam rockets to the longer-range missiles in use today.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 10:05 AM
Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against deadly force?

No they do not. Human rights are an illusion, no one has a right to anything. There is no objective basis for rights.

Even if they did have the right to defend themselves firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel is not a defensive measure.


If so, how, considering the overwhelming military might deployed against them?

Firing rockets towards civilian centres is deplorable, but Israel will not allow Hamas to build conventional army and air forces to fight on equal terms, so Hamas utilises whatever it can, from the early homemade Qassam rockets to the longer-range missiles in use today.

Armed forces are evil, the Palestinians having armed forces would only make matters worse. The way forward is for Israel (and all nations) to dismantle its armed forces and become a nation of peace.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgkThdzX-8

"Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace"

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 10:38 AM
No they do not. Human rights are an illusion, no one has a right to anything. There is no objective basis for rights.

Even if they did have the right to defend themselves firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel is not a defensive measure.

Armed forces are evil, the Palestinians having armed forces would only make matters worse. The way forward is for Israel (and all nations) to dismantle its armed forces and become a nation of peace.

"Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace"

Utopia would be nice, but none of us will live to see it

4885

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 11:09 AM
One way to avoid unwanted media attention

Statement: AP ‘horrified’ by Israeli attack on its office (https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israel-palestinian-conflict-f595d0ea0a7e21a4e4974ae55e00024d?utm_campaign=Soci alFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP)

An Israeli airstrike destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets on Saturday. All AP employees and freelancers evacuated the building safely.

AP President and CEO Gary Pruitt has released the following statement:

We are shocked and horrified that the Israeli military would target and destroy the building housing AP’s bureau and other news organizations in Gaza. They have long known the location of our bureau and knew journalists were there. We received a warning that the building would be hit. ...

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 11:16 AM
One way to avoid unwanted media attention

Statement: AP ‘horrified’ by Israeli attack on its office (https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-israel-palestinian-conflict-f595d0ea0a7e21a4e4974ae55e00024d?utm_campaign=Soci alFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP)

An Israeli airstrike destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets on Saturday. All AP employees and freelancers evacuated the building safely.

AP President and CEO Gary Pruitt has released the following statement:

We are shocked and horrified that the Israeli military would target and destroy the building housing AP’s bureau and other news organizations in Gaza. They have long known the location of our bureau and knew journalists were there. We received a warning that the building would be hit. ...

Israel gave 1 hour warning so that the extremely dangerous doctors rooms and apartments in the building could be evacuated. Of course it also means if there were any Hamas elements in the building they left. Just pointless destruction of a perfectly good building that achieved nothing but making people homeless.

Of course Israel are doing far worse like continuing to kill children.

ISRAEL SHOULD STAND DOWN AND STOP KILLING CHILDREN.

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 11:18 AM
Israel gave 1 hour warning so that the extremely dangerous doctors rooms and apartments in the building could be evacuated. Of course it also means if there were any Hamas elements in the building they left. Just pointless destruction of a perfectly good building that achieved nothing but making people homeless.

Of course Israel are doing far worse like continuing to kill children.

ISRAEL SHOULD STAND DOWN AND STOP KILLING CHILDREN.

What would you suggest Israel is to do, Scott if a terrorist organization keeps on sending missiles ? Any alternatives to attempting to shut the terrorists down?

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 11:28 AM
What would you suggest Israel is to do, Scott if a terrorist organization keeps on sending missiles ? Any alternatives to attempting to shut the terrorists down?

Short term. Rely on the Iron dome and start diplomacy for a ceasefire.

Then show good will to the people of Gaza by doing things like rebuilding the building that have been destroyed in the Gaza. Help improve health care and other services in the Gaza strip. Work on getting better leadership for the people of Gaza.

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 11:32 AM
There's No Room for Doubt: This Was the Execution of a Helpless 60-year-old Palestinian Woman (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-no-room-for-doubt-this-was-an-execution-of-a-helpless-60-year-old-palestinian-woman-1.9781917)

May. 7, 2021

It’s an appalling video that leaves no room for doubt: This was an execution. The victim was a helpless, older woman who wanted to end her life. The soldiers who executed her were either craven cowards of the sort who take fright at the sight of a sick, elderly woman with a knife, or they were cruel and inhuman and had no sense of judgment. One of them did shout to the others “Stop!” – but it was too late. Soldiers of the Nahal Brigade apparently know only one surefire way stop a mentally unstable woman, who could be their grandmother. A woman holding a kitchen knife in her limp hand – her husband later confirmed that it had been taken from their home – who did not endanger them for a second. And that way is: Shoot to kill.

They roared at her and then backed away as if she were a bold, young terrorist and not a heavyset woman who barely moved forward. The Israel Defense Forces thought these soldiers had acted properly, perhaps even in an outstanding way. The army doesn’t always release video footage of incidents like this one, but this time it made the video of the execution available – proof, ostensibly, that the troops had acted correctly. But this clip actually leaves no room for doubt: This was the execution of a helpless, 60-year-old woman. There is no other way to describe what happened this past Sunday morning at the Gush Etzion junction in the West Bank, near Bethlehem. ...

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 11:45 AM
There's No Room for Doubt: This Was the Execution of a Helpless 60-year-old Palestinian Woman (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-no-room-for-doubt-this-was-an-execution-of-a-helpless-60-year-old-palestinian-woman-1.9781917)

May. 7, 2021

It’s an appalling video that leaves no room for doubt: This was an execution. The victim was a helpless, older woman who wanted to end her life. The soldiers who executed her were either craven cowards of the sort who take fright at the sight of a sick, elderly woman with a knife, or they were cruel and inhuman and had no sense of judgment. One of them did shout to the others “Stop!” – but it was too late. Soldiers of the Nahal Brigade apparently know only one surefire way stop a mentally unstable woman, who could be their grandmother. A woman holding a kitchen knife in her limp hand – her husband later confirmed that it had been taken from their home – who did not endanger them for a second. And that way is: Shoot to kill.

They roared at her and then backed away as if she were a bold, young terrorist and not a heavyset woman who barely moved forward. The Israel Defense Forces thought these soldiers had acted properly, perhaps even in an outstanding way. The army doesn’t always release video footage of incidents like this one, but this time it made the video of the execution available – proof, ostensibly, that the troops had acted correctly. But this clip actually leaves no room for doubt: This was the execution of a helpless, 60-year-old woman. There is no other way to describe what happened this past Sunday morning at the Gush Etzion junction in the West Bank, near Bethlehem. ...

A sad story, major failure in the care of a mentally ill person and a failure to recognise what she really was by those who shot her.

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 12:04 PM
Short term. Rely on the Iron dome and start diplomacy for a ceasefire.

Then show good will to the people of Gaza by doing things like rebuilding the building that have been destroyed in the Gaza. Help improve health care and other services in the Gaza strip. Work on getting better leadership for the people of Gaza.

So...be attacked and not fight back....will it a) decrease attacks of the terrorists or decrease attacks? Does it work with barbarians like Hamas? Do you seriously think that responding to attacks with improving health services will win?

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 12:06 PM
I just wonder...is there a way to deal with terrorists other than fighting back? If Yes, would you do it if they attack your home? Is that what we should consider here in Australia if acts of terror (God forbid) occur?

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 01:27 PM
Short term. Rely on the Iron dome and start diplomacy for a ceasefire.

"Israel turned down an Egyptian proposal for a one-year truce that Hamas rulers had accepted, an Egyptian official told the AP on Friday"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/15/israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-claims-eight-young-cousins?utm_term=1ecfc82e54fc4ebf06de381dcbd7fe63&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayAUS&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTAU_email


Then show good will to the people of Gaza by doing things like rebuilding the building that have been destroyed in the Gaza. Help improve health care and other services in the Gaza strip. Work on getting better leadership for the people of Gaza.

The Palestinians don't want Israeli charity. Lift the blockade and let Gaza have its own port and airport so they can stand on their own feet without endless Israeli repression

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 01:32 PM
A sad story, major failure in the care of a mentally ill person and a failure to recognise what she really was by those who shot her.

A failure to recognise what she definitely was not - any sort of lethal threat to heavily armed soldiers. Or another wilful disregard for Palestinian lives

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 06:27 PM
The Palestinians don't want Israeli charity. Lift the blockade and let Gaza have its own port and airport so they can stand on their own feet without endless Israeli repression
But do they want to stop terrorism?
Is use of terrorism acceptable for any cause?
In my view, right now - supporting Hamas = supporting a terrorist organisation

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 06:28 PM
A failure to recognise what she definitely was not - any sort of lethal threat to heavily armed soldiers. Or another wilful disregard for Palestinian lives

Ian, so I asked before...what to do with terrorists? How to stop terrorism? Give in? Or just let it continue?

Patrick Byrom
16-05-2021, 06:57 PM
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Or am I missing something? P.S. Israel NEVER uses human shields!Whether Hamas is a terrorist organisation depends on where you live: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=Israel%20and%20Hamas%20have%20since, wing%20as%20a%20terrorist%20organization.)

Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan and the United States classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom classify only its military wing as a terrorist organization. It is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization.

And Israel has used human shields (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/israel-challenged-over-use-of-human-shields-1.978269):

Human-rights activists have asked Israel's highest court to ban the Israeli military from all use of Palestinian civilians as "human shields" in military operations. Israel's Supreme Court barred the practice in 2002 after soldiers forced the neighbour of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver an ultimatum to surrender. The militant shot and killed the man.

Patrick Byrom
16-05-2021, 07:00 PM
But do they want to stop terrorism? Is use of terrorism acceptable for any cause? In my view, right now - supporting Hamas = supporting a terrorist organisationSo China is a supporter of terrorism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Palestine_relations)?

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 07:17 PM
Whether Hamas is a terrorist organisation depends on where you live: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=Israel%20and%20Hamas%20have%20since, wing%20as%20a%20terrorist%20organization.)

Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan and the United States classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom classify only its military wing as a terrorist organization. It is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization.

And Israel has used human shields (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/israel-challenged-over-use-of-human-shields-1.978269):

Human-rights activists have asked Israel's highest court to ban the Israeli military from all use of Palestinian civilians as "human shields" in military operations. Israel's Supreme Court barred the practice in 2002 after soldiers forced the neighbour of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver an ultimatum to surrender. The militant shot and killed the man.

You are trying hard to refrain from answering directly so...''only'' military wing is terrorist...I think it is very clear that all the countries that suffered from it in the past as well as the entire Western world considers it to be terrorist (despite supporting it occasionally due to lack of spine) . China does not support Hamas either.
Re human shileds...so much drama over Israel using it BEFORE 2002...what about Palestine using it now and using all the time?
I find it amazing how left-wing people have all kind of reasons not to consider terrorists to be terrorists.
So if someone starts suiside bomb attacks or missile attacks in Australia for some 'worthy cause'' - will we call it terrorism?

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 07:34 PM
Ian, so I asked before...what to do with terrorists? How to stop terrorism? Give in? Or just let it continue?

We rely, of course, on our police and intelligence agencies acting to prevent terrorism here.

However terrorism is not defined as 'violence I don't agree with'. There is no clear definition; many scholars and governments have attempted to do so, e.g. Canada's, which includes 'causing intentional death, bodily harm, damage to public and private property, and causing interference with or serious disruption to essential services, amongst others, as incidents defined as terrorism'.

In that light, both Hamas and Israel are guilty of terrorism.

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 07:45 PM
We rely, of course, on our police and intelligence agencies acting to prevent terrorism here.

However terrorism is not defined as 'violence I don't agree with'. There is no clear definition; many scholars and governments have attempted to do so, e.g. Canada's, which includes 'causing intentional death, bodily harm, damage to public and private property, and causing interference with or serious disruption to essential services, amongst others, as incidents defined as terrorism'.

In that light, both Hamas and Israel are guilty of terrorism.

Israel targets military targets whom does Hamas target? Can you really compare?
The real nightmare for Australia will start if we start brining in ''Palestinian refugees'' in large numbers...I can only imagine what it will lead to. Note that Majority of the Muslim countries even are very cautious about letting Palestinians come in.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 08:02 PM
Israel targets military targets whom does Hamas target? Can you really compare?
The real nightmare for Australia will start if we start brining in ''Palestinian refugees'' in large numbers...I can only imagine what it will lead to. Note that Majority of the Muslim countries even are very cautious about letting Palestinians come in.

So it is okay to kill children as long as they are near a military target?
Do the lives of terrorist not matter?

ALL LIVES MATTER, KILL NO ONE

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 08:12 PM
Life is everything, without life there is nothing. It is up to every human to protect lives not kill. The taking of life is always wrong no matter the circumstance, nothing justifies the taking of a life.

Israel is taking lives, they are doing wrong, they should stop

Hamas is taking lives, they are doing wrong, they should stop

Anyone who supports either of these sides is part of the problem, stand up for life, stand up for peace, demand an end to this conflict.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 08:19 PM
The children Israel has killed, they should be held to account for these killings

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1gHD-8UUAMh325?format=jpg&name=small

Patrick Byrom
16-05-2021, 08:24 PM
You are trying hard to refrain from answering directly so...''only'' military wing is terrorist...I think it is very clear that all the countries that suffered from it in the past as well as the entire Western world considers it to be terrorist (despite supporting it occasionally due to lack of spine) . China does not support Hamas either. Re human shileds...so much drama over Israel using it BEFORE 2002...what about Palestine using it now and using all the time? I find it amazing how left-wing people have all kind of reasons not to consider terrorists to be terrorists. So if someone starts suiside bomb attacks or missile attacks in Australia for some 'worthy cause'' - will we call it terrorism?China definitely supports Hamas (from my previous link):

After the victory of Hamas, a Palestinian military group that favored the restoration of historical Palestine in the 2006 Palestinian elections, China refused to call the group a terrorist organization and called them elected representatives of the Palestinian People. This statement was clarified by the PRC Foreign Ministry in January 2006. The PRC invited the Hamas Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar to attend the China-Arab Cooperation Forum in June 2006 ignoring protests by both the United States and Israel but received praise from Mahmoud Abbas. ...
It doesn't consider it a terrorist organisation either.

I assume that you will immediately condemn China for its blatant support of Hamas?

You originally claimed that Israel "NEVER" uses human shields. That is obviously wrong. And they continue to use them (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials-30483468.html): "Israeli Defense Forces made use of 'human shield' procedures on 1,200 occasions over the last five years, officials said."

Patrick Byrom
16-05-2021, 08:29 PM
Israel targets military targets whom does Hamas target? Can you really compare? The real nightmare for Australia will start if we start brining in ''Palestinian refugees'' in large numbers...I can only imagine what it will lead to. Note that Majority of the Muslim countries even are very cautious about letting Palestinians come in.Australia already has 50 000 Palestinians! Most have been here much longer than you have - you've probably heard of Joe Hockey, at least. And Jordan (clearly a Muslim country) has millions of Palestinians.

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 09:07 PM
Israel targets military targets whom does Hamas target? Can you really compare?

By no stretch of the imagination can apartment blocks, international media bureaus and homes be described as military targets. Just because Israel says so doesn't make it true.

In Pictures: Death and destruction in Gaza as Israel attacks (https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/5/14/in-pictures-death-and-destructions-in-gaza-amid-israeli-attacks)


The real nightmare for Australia will start if we start brining in ''Palestinian refugees'' in large numbers...I can only imagine what it will lead to. Note that Majority of the Muslim countries even are very cautious about letting Palestinians come in.

Palestinian refugees seek immigration, find Australia most welcoming country (https://www.arabnews.com/node/1553316/middle-east)

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 09:21 PM
Iran is supporting Hamas

https://metrowatchonline.com/iran-promises-hamas-support-in-fight-against-israel/

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 09:37 PM
By no stretch of the imagination can apartment blocks, international media bureaus and homes be described as military targets. Just because Israel says so doesn't make it true.

In Pictures: Death and destruction in Gaza as Israel attacks (https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/5/14/in-pictures-death-and-destructions-in-gaza-amid-israeli-attacks)



Palestinian refugees seek immigration, find Australia most welcoming country (https://www.arabnews.com/node/1553316/middle-east)

So who is using apartment blocks to to launch missiles: Israelis or Palestinians.
Anyone found with a link to Hamas should be a) denied access to the country and b) treated as a a person who has a link to a terrorist organisation

MichaelBaron
16-05-2021, 09:38 PM
Iran is supporting Hamas

https://metrowatchonline.com/iran-promises-hamas-support-in-fight-against-israel/

No wonder that it does :).
I am sure there are all kind of Alliances possible between Hamas an Al-Queda as well

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 09:39 PM
Iran is supporting Hamas

https://metrowatchonline.com/iran-promises-hamas-support-in-fight-against-israel/

So? USA is supporting Israel.

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 09:42 PM
So who is using apartment blocks to to launch missiles: Israelis or Palestinians.


Don't be silly. Missiles can't be launched from buildings - the back-blast would do more damage than the missile.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 09:43 PM
So? USA is supporting Israel.

It just seemed like interesting, although unsurprising, news.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 09:45 PM
UN Security Council will meet at 14:00 GMT which is 11:30pm Adelaide time.

Of course nothing useful will come of it as the USA will protect the child killing Israel.

Ian Murray
16-05-2021, 10:00 PM
It just seemed like interesting, although unsurprising, news.

Your link was blocked by my malware scanner, but Iran has been Hezbollah's munitions supplier for many years. Hamas would be a similar customer.

Scott Colliver
16-05-2021, 11:09 PM
Your link was blocked by my malware scanner, but Iran has been Hezbollah's munitions supplier for many years. Hamas would be a similar customer.

I am sorry for posting a bad link, I will try not to do it again

Capablanca-Fan
17-05-2021, 12:56 AM
Tensions Rise In Middle East As One Side Wants To Kill Jews And The Other Side Are Jews Who Don't Want To Die And Neither Will Compromise (https://babylonbee.com/news/tensions-rise-in-middle-east-as-one-side-wants-to-kill-jews-and-the-other-side-are-jews-who-dont-want-to-die-and-neither-will-compromise)
Babylon Bee, 12 May 2021

JERUSALEM—Israel has tried to get along with Palestine and other neighboring countries, but a core disagreement between the two groups has increased tensions and made peace seem impossible. For many in the Middle East, what they want most of all is to kill Jews -- which they see as a reasonable request. But a majority of Israel is made up of Jews who, first and foremost, do not want to be killed. And neither side is willing to compromise on these desires.

“We’re a simple people with a simple desire,” explained Bob Hamas, Palestinian founder of Hamas. “We just want to kill the Jews. We’re not dead set on how. Stabbings. Gunshots. Explosions. Pushing them into the sea. Any of those are fine with us, but Israel won’t allow any of those. Not even strangling. It’s keeping us from living our truth.”

Benjamin Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel and a “you can’t murder Jews” extremist, explained that from his point of view it was Hamas that was being unreasonable. “We just don’t want people to kill us, you know,” he said. “It’s the number one thing people say to me: ‘Hey, Ben, make sure no one murders us.’ And I know this throws cold water on what a lot of people out there want, but I am not moving from this position. No killing the Jews.”

Scott Colliver
17-05-2021, 01:17 AM
Watching the UN Security Council and heard both the Palestinians and Israel trying to justify their actions and blame the other side for starting the situation. Neither side took responsibility for their disgraceful actions in killing the other side. Both sides should be condemned by the Security Council

MichaelBaron
17-05-2021, 10:37 AM
Your link was blocked by my malware scanner, but Iran has been Hezbollah's munitions supplier for many years. Hamas would be a similar customer.

Similar is the right word to use! Btw, this is what has been going in Palestine for years and this is where money for terrorism also comes from: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/06/israel

MichaelBaron
17-05-2021, 10:40 AM
“We’re a simple people with a simple desire,” explained Bob Hamas, Palestinian founder of Hamas. “We just want to kill the Jews. We’re not dead set on how. Stabbings. Gunshots. Explosions. Pushing them into the sea. Any of those are fine with us, but Israel won’t allow any of those. Not even strangling. It’s keeping us from living our truth.”

Benjamin Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel and a “you can’t murder Jews” extremist, explained that from his point of view it was Hamas that was being unreasonable. “We just don’t want people to kill us, you know,” he said. “It’s the number one thing people say to me: ‘Hey, Ben, make sure no one murders us.’ And I know this throws cold water on what a lot of people out there want, but I am not moving from this position. No killing the Jews.”


I think this is central point of the conflict. An organisation wants to kill the Jews. After making such a statement, supporting such an organisation = supporting terrorism.

antichrist
17-05-2021, 11:26 AM
The Jews have been committing terrorism there before it was even Israel, going back to Joshua's longest day actually. According to their own scripts they were never invited there but occupied due to violence. They are there because of European antisemitism and Holocaust. A lesser reason is due to a substantial portion of them self imposed not integrating when they were in European countries for many centuries. This can lead to them being scapegoated when times go bad, for example Hungary after WW1.

Patrick Byrom
17-05-2021, 12:38 PM
I think this is central point of the conflict. An organisation wants to kill the Jews. After making such a statement, supporting such an organisation = supporting terrorism.You do realise that the Babylon Bee is a right-wing satirical site - and that Hamas wasn't actually founded by the (non-existent) 'Bob Hamas' :) But I'm glad you've finally admitted that China is a supporter of terrorism!

antichrist
17-05-2021, 04:32 PM
On Al Jazeera it was stated that Israel used video footage of Syrian forces using rockets in 2018 but representing it as Hamas launching rockets in this current conflict. They do con the world at the expense of suffering Gazans, whom are refugees from when Israel was established and driven out.

Ian Murray
17-05-2021, 09:01 PM
But What About Hamas’s Rockets? (https://theintercept.com/2021/05/14/palestine-israel-hamas-netanyahu-biden/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=The%20Intercept%20Newsletter)

We must be clear: What started this immediate horror was the intensification of Israel’s ethnic-cleansing campaign against Palestinians in East Jerusalem. ...

Scott Colliver
17-05-2021, 11:47 PM
But What About Hamas’s Rockets? (https://theintercept.com/2021/05/14/palestine-israel-hamas-netanyahu-biden/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=The%20Intercept%20Newsletter)

We must be clear: What started this immediate horror was the intensification of Israel’s ethnic-cleansing campaign against Palestinians in East Jerusalem. ...

Very badly written article

MichaelBaron
18-05-2021, 12:39 AM
You do realise that the Babylon Bee is a right-wing satirical site - and that Hamas wasn't actually founded by the (non-existent) 'Bob Hamas' :) But I'm glad you've finally admitted that China is a supporter of terrorism!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Israel_relations
China is certainly having a better relationship with Israel than with us...

MichaelBaron
18-05-2021, 12:42 AM
But What About Hamas’s Rockets? (https://theintercept.com/2021/05/14/palestine-israel-hamas-netanyahu-biden/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=The%20Intercept%20Newsletter)

We must be clear: What started this immediate horror was the intensification of Israel’s ethnic-cleansing campaign against Palestinians in East Jerusalem. ...

Hmm..if this is what you call good journalism...
to quote the author:
What is my personal view? I would hope that if I lived in an open-air prison where my family and neighbors were being murdered, my humanity being erased by a powerful nation backed by the most powerful government on Earth, that I would find the moral strength not to fire rockets at the civilians of the country whose government wants me dead and repeatedly attempts to murder me. But I cannot state with certainty that I would not resort to such a response if I lived, as the people of Gaza do, trapped in a killing cage. I do not want civilians killed because of the crimes of their government, even if they cheer on my attempted murder. At the same time, this is not my reality, and I have no right to judge the tactics used by the oppressed, particularly when the terror against them is being financed and openly supported by both Democrats and Republicans alike in what has long been official U.S. policy.''

Nothing but propaganda...if Israel wanted to destroy Palestine as much as Palestine wants to destroy Israel - it would certainly succeed!

Scott Colliver
18-05-2021, 09:46 AM
6 Rockets fired towards Israel from Lebanon, although none reached Israel.

Israel responded with artillery towards the sources of the rockets.

This threatens to turn the conflict into a larger conflict.

Ian Murray
18-05-2021, 10:28 AM
...

Nothing but propaganda...if Israel wanted to destroy Palestine as much as Palestine wants to destroy Israel - it would certainly succeed!

Israel has been trying to subjugate the Palestinians for 70 years, and has succeeded only in radicalising each new generation (those who weren't killed before they grew past puberty).

'We only want peace" is the Israeli catchcry, as they systematically dispossess Palestinians from their homes and lands, impose an economic and military blockade on Gaza, destroy their crops and livestock, raid their homes in the dead of night, arbitrarily arrest and imprison (or shoot) protestors (the penalty for throwing stones is 20 years imprisonment), allow ethnic cleansing and terrorism by settlers, and continually harass and humiliate ordinary civilians.

Still they haven't broken the Palestinian spirit. They've tried armed invasion with mass killing, levelling their homes and infrastructure as collective punishment, most recently before now as Operation Protective Edge (https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/dcipalestine/pages/530/attachments/original/1436292897/OPE_A_War_Waged_on_Children.pdf?1436292897) and Operation Cast Lead (https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde150152009en.pdf), while the Israeli propaganda machine blankets the international community, media and social media with its right to self-defence and its strict observance of international law.

4887
'Military targets' destroyed during Op Protective Edge

MichaelBaron
18-05-2021, 10:49 AM
Israel has been trying to subjugate the Palestinians for 70 years, and has succeeded only in radicalising each new generation (those who weren't killed before they grew past puberty).

'We only want peace" is the Israeli catchcry, as they systematically dispossess Palestinians from their homes and lands, impose an economic and military blockade on Gaza, destroy their crops and livestock, raid their homes in the dead of night, arbitrarily arrest and imprison (or shoot) protestors (the penalty for throwing stones is 20 years imprisonment), allow ethnic cleansing and terrorism by settlers, and continually harass and humiliate ordinary civilians.

Still they haven't broken the Palestinian spirit. They've tried armed invasion with mass killing, levelling their homes and infrastructure as collective punishment, most recently before now as Operation Protective Edge (https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/dcipalestine/pages/530/attachments/original/1436292897/OPE_A_War_Waged_on_Children.pdf?1436292897) and Operation Cast Lead (https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/mde150152009en.pdf), while the Israeli propaganda machine blankets the international community, media and social media with its right to self-defence and its strict observance of international law.

4887
'Military targets' destroyed during Op Protective Edge

Ian, and what has Palestine been trying to do? I am NOT supporting Israel and its actions unconditionally....but lets compare who is more civilized and who are the terrorists. We can dispute Israel's response to Palestine, We can also dispute USA methods in Afghanistan etc. but is there any doubt that they are dealing with terrorists?

Ian Murray
18-05-2021, 11:59 AM
Ian, and what has Palestine been trying to do? I am NOT supporting Israel and its actions unconditionally....but lets compare who is more civilized and who are the terrorists. We can dispute Israel's response to Palestine, We can also dispute USA methods in Afghanistan etc. but is there any doubt that they are dealing with terrorists?

Israel has the fourth most powerful military machine in the world, equipped with the last word in hi-tech weaponry. There is absolutely no possibility of Palestine achieving a military victory against that machine, but they keep on resisting. There is nothing civilised about razing civilian homes to the ground - that's terrorism. As is the Hamas rocket fire against civilian homes. The major difference is that Israeli terrorism is deadlier, as evidence by the respective body counts.

MichaelBaron
18-05-2021, 12:39 PM
Israel has the fourth most powerful military machine in the world, equipped with the last word in hi-tech weaponry. There is absolutely no possibility of Palestine achieving a military victory against that machine, but they keep on resisting. There is nothing civilised about razing civilian homes to the ground - that's terrorism. As is the Hamas rocket fire against civilian homes. The major difference is that Israeli terrorism is deadlier, as evidence by the respective body counts.

You appear to avoid the question? Are Palestinians terrorists? I can throw another question in: Do you believe that Israel would send missiles at Palestine if not for the terrorism.
Or Yes, And USA is the most powerful military machine in the world, does it justify attack on the twin towers?

Patrick Byrom
18-05-2021, 12:45 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Israel_relations
China is certainly having a better relationship with Israel than with us...China supports a country which is firing rockets into Australia!? Which one?

Ian Murray
18-05-2021, 12:48 PM
You appear to avoid the question? Are Palestinians terrorists?

As I said: "that's terrorism. As is the Hamas rocket fire against civilian homes". How is that avoiding the question?


I can throw another question in: Do you believe that Israel would send missiles at Palestine if not for the terrorism.

If the Palestinians did not resist their occupation, Israel would have no need to use military force. They could take and keep occupied territory at will


Or Yes, And USA is the most powerful military machine in the world, does it justify attack on the twin towers?

Irrelevant non sequitur

MichaelBaron
18-05-2021, 11:42 PM
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/afghanistan-ready-for-taliban-violence-after-us-withdrawal-afghan-president-says
How is it relevant to the thread? - It does portray a picture what kind of people Israel is dealing with. Are Hamas better than Taliban? and In Afghanistan, it is muslims committing actors of terror on other muslims

Capablanca-Fan
19-05-2021, 03:03 AM
Israel has the fourth most powerful military machine in the world, equipped with the last word in hi-tech weaponry. There is absolutely no possibility of Palestine achieving a military victory against that machine, but they keep on resisting.
The war could end tomorrow if the so-called Palestinians would do what Egypt, Jordan, did, and what four Arab countries did last year: recognize Israel's right to exist.


There is nothing civilised about razing civilian homes to the ground - that's terrorism.
Israel goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas goes out of its way to maximize civilian casualties, both Israeli and its own human shields.


As is the Hamas rocket fire against civilian homes. The major difference is that Israeli terrorism is deadlier, as evidence by the respective body counts.
It might be deadlier but that doesn't mean it's wrong. The US and British Commonwealth reaction to Germany and Japan was deadlier than the German and Japanese attacks, but still right.

Some of the so-called Palestinian body counts are due to their criminal human shields policies, blowing themselves up with suicide bombs or mis-aimed rockets, murdering alleged collaborators, refusal to accept blood transfusions from Jews.

Capablanca-Fan
19-05-2021, 03:05 AM
Irrelevant non sequitur
Not so. It was reasonable to ask because your argument was: Israel is militarily stronger, and this somehow excuses attacks on them.

What about another related question: would the USA, or any other country for that matter, tolerate a border country firing rockets into it?

Ian Murray
19-05-2021, 02:05 PM
The war could end tomorrow if the so-called Palestinians would do what Egypt, Jordan, did, and what four Arab countries did last year: recognize Israel's right to exist.

Palestinians are not ‘so-called’. They are ethnic Arabs who live in Palestine


Palestine is a small region of land that has played a prominent role in the ancient and modern history of the Middle East. The history of Palestine has been marked by frequent political conflict and violent land seizures because of its importance to several major world religions, and because Palestine sits at a valuable geographic crossroads between Africa and Asia. Today, Arab people who call this territory home are known as Palestinians, and the people of Palestine have a strong desire to create a free and independent state in this contested region of the world.
https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

You don’t mention that Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties with Israel in exchange, inter alia, for Israel withdrawing its troops and civilians to behind the pre-Six Day War international borders between Israel and Egypt and Jordan. Peace with Palestine would certainly be viable under the same conditions.
Egypt: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/isregypt.asp#annex1
Jordan: http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/peacetreaty.html

The recognition deals struck by Kushner/Trump with Morocco, Sudan, UAE and Bahrain “were all motivated by narrow interests—including the promise of either advanced weapons or diplomatic favors from the United States.” https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/arab-ties-israel-diplomacy-normalization-middle-east


Israel goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas goes out of its way to maximize civilian casualties, both Israeli and its own human shields.

“Israeli warplanes always target Hamas, not Palestinians, not people, not wives and husbands, not the only power plant, not fishing boats, and of course not schools and children. Every Palestinian is Hamas, and any national resistance is terrorism, in the media/Zionist narrative.”
https://www.startribune.com/more-peace-in-the-mideast-will-mean-more-land-for-israel/572256392


It might be deadlier but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

It certainly doesn’t make it right


Some of the so-called Palestinian body counts are due to their criminal human shields policies, blowing themselves up with suicide bombs or mis-aimed rockets, murdering alleged collaborators, refusal to accept blood transfusions from Jews.

You’re making stuff up. Give us a bit of evidence to substantiate your claims.

The hackneyed claim by Israeli propaganda that Hamas uses human shields has no substance – there are no reports (or photos!) of Hamas soldiers crouching behind Israeli children, let alone Arab children. Hamas would lose its popular support very quickly if it sheltered behind its own people.
Israeli soldiers have no such qualms, using Arab children as human shields as a matter of course

Israel-Gaza: IDF used Palestinians as human shields 1,200 occasions in last five years, say Israeli defence officials (http://https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials-30483468.html)

Ian Murray
19-05-2021, 03:08 PM
Not so. It was reasonable to ask because your argument was: Israel is militarily stronger, and this somehow excuses attacks on them.

That was not my argument at all. Go back a few posts for context:

Michael said:

...if Israel wanted to destroy Palestine as much as Palestine wants to destroy Israel - it would certainly succeed!
I replied:

Israel has been trying to subjugate the Palestinians for 70 years ...
Michal replied:

Ian, and what has Palestine been trying to do? ...
i.e. Palestine has been trying to subjugate Israel. I replied:

Israel has the fourth most powerful military machine in the world, equipped with the last word in hi-tech weaponry. There is absolutely no possibility of Palestine achieving a military victory against that machine, but they keep on resisting. ...

My point was that Israel has no reason to fear a Palestinian attempt to subjugate Israel


What about another related question: would the USA, or any other country for that matter, tolerate a border country firing rockets into it?

USA would certainly not tolerate rocket attacks from Canada or Mexico across international borders. However the analogy does not translate to the Gaza conflict. The international borders between Israel and Palestine (Gaza and West Bank) are still awaiting determination pending negotiations. Successful negotiations become more and more remote as Israel continues expansion of its illegal settlements on the West Bank.

A better analogy would be the European settlers overrunning North America and driving its inhabitants, the native Americans, into a reservation without treaty then walling them off. Indian rockets fired over the wall would be an equally one-sided war of resistance born of desperation

Patrick Byrom
19-05-2021, 05:44 PM
“Israeli warplanes always target Hamas, not Palestinians, not people, not wives and husbands, not the only power plant, not fishing boats, and of course not schools and children. Every Palestinian is Hamas, and any national resistance is terrorism, in the media/Zionist narrative.”
https://www.startribune.com/more-peace-in-the-mideast-will-mean-more-land-for-israel/572256392Apparently Israel doesn't target journalists either, despite destroying a building housing several news organisations - much to the delight of US rightwingers (https://www.salon.com/2021/05/16/far-right-pundits-celebrate-the-israeli-bombing-of-ap-bbc-al-jazeera-offices-in-gaza/).

Ian Murray
19-05-2021, 06:56 PM
Apparently Israel doesn't target journalists either, despite destroying a building housing several news organisations - much to the delight of US rightwingers (https://www.salon.com/2021/05/16/far-right-pundits-celebrate-the-israeli-bombing-of-ap-bbc-al-jazeera-offices-in-gaza/).

More than that - Hamas was using journos as human shields! I guess they make better shields than children, being adult-size :)

Netanyahu adviser: Condemn Hamas’ use of journalists as human shields (https://nypost.com/2021/05/16/netanyahu-adviser-hamas-using-journalists-as-human-shields/)

Instead of outrageously criticizing Israel for targeting a terror complex disguised as an office building, it is Hamas that must be strongly condemned for its deliberate use of foreign journalists as human shields.

On Saturday, the Israeli Air Force rightfully struck an emptied 12-story tower in Gaza that was utilized by Hamas as a center for waging its latest murderous campaign on Israeli civilians. The terror tower was used as a Hamas operations base for gathering intelligence for attacks against Israelis, researching and developing weapons and positioning equipment to hamper IDF operations. ...

Ian Murray
19-05-2021, 07:33 PM
Long Read from The Guardian

Debunking the myth that anti-Zionism is antisemitic
(https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic?fbclid=IwAR3Yh563nI_H95BmQWfJiO6FQmouw EAVo2HeJyj3zV6gl-v4XN2x1O69y6k)

All over the world, it is an alarming time to be Jewish – but conflating anti-Zionism with Jew-hatred is a tragic mistake ...

Scott Colliver
19-05-2021, 08:33 PM
We must remember killing is wrong.

Israel is killing so it is wrong

Hamas is killing so it is wrong.

Both sides must stop the killing, a ceasefire should start immediately.

MichaelBaron
19-05-2021, 09:30 PM
That was not my argument at all. Go back a few posts for context:

Michael said:

I replied:

Michal replied:

i.e. Palestine has been trying to subjugate Israel. I replied:


My point was that Israel has no reason to fear a Palestinian attempt to subjugate Israel



USA would certainly not tolerate rocket attacks from Canada or Mexico across international borders. However the analogy does not translate to the Gaza conflict. The international borders between Israel and Palestine (Gaza and West Bank) are still awaiting determination pending negotiations. Successful negotiations become more and more remote as Israel continues expansion of its illegal settlements on the West Bank.

A better analogy would be the European settlers overrunning North America and driving its inhabitants, the native Americans, into a reservation without treaty then walling them off. Indian rockets fired over the wall would be an equally one-sided war of resistance born of desperation

By why does Israel have to tolerate those rocket attacks? Can just finish them off! Would the be Barbarians like Hamas they would. The only reason Hamas has not destroyed Israel yet, is because they are not strong enough.

antichrist
19-05-2021, 09:58 PM
By why does Israel have to tolerate those rocket attacks? Can just finish them off! Would the be Barbarians like Hamas they would. The only reason Hamas has not destroyed Israel yet, is because they are not strong enough.

Those Barbarians have just as valid or even greater claim to all of Israel than the current Zionists do.

When the Nazis created the Jewish ghettos in Europe the Jews rightfully revolted though in vain. The Gaza situation is not that different.

Scott Colliver
20-05-2021, 01:34 AM
Four more rockets fired from Lebanon at Israel to which Israel has responded with artillery attacking targets in Lebanon.

This is a bad development which is threatening to have an expansion on of the conflict to the Lebanon - Israel border with more wrong killing occurring.

MichaelBaron
20-05-2021, 02:35 AM
Four more rockets fired from Lebanon at Israel to which Israel has responded with artillery attacking targets in Lebanon.

This is a bad development which is threatening to have an expansion on of the conflict to the Lebanon - Israel border with more wrong killing occurring.

agreed. So the question is, who is putting Lebanese under fire, Israelis or their local terrorists?

Scott Colliver
20-05-2021, 10:08 AM
To Israel's shame Netanyahu has rebuffed Joe Biden's request to de-escalate the conflict and head towards a ceasefire. Israel needs to stop the attacks on Gaza immediately so it does not wrongly kill any more Palestinians.

Scott Colliver
20-05-2021, 10:09 AM
agreed. So the question is, who is putting Lebanese under fire, Israelis or their local terrorists?

The Israelis are responsible for their own actions of firing artillery at Lebanon.

Ian Murray
20-05-2021, 10:11 AM
Analysis | This Is Israel’s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-this-is-israel-s-most-failed-and-pointless-gaza-operation-ever-it-must-end-now-1.9819484)

As of its ninth day, Operation Guardian of the Walls in Gaza has turned into Israel’s most failed and pointless border war ever, even when measured against the tough competition from the champion league of the Second Lebanon War, and Operations Pillar of Defense, Cast Lead and Protective Edge in Gaza. We have been witness to a serious military and diplomatic failure that has exposed major deficiencies in the army’s preparations and performance and in the leadership of a confused and helpless government. ...

Scott Colliver
20-05-2021, 10:13 AM
Analysis | This Is Israel’s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-this-is-israel-s-most-failed-and-pointless-gaza-operation-ever-it-must-end-now-1.9819484)

As of its ninth day, Operation Guardian of the Walls in Gaza has turned into Israel’s most failed and pointless border war ever, even when measured against the tough competition from the champion league of the Second Lebanon War, and Operations Pillar of Defense, Cast Lead and Protective Edge in Gaza. We have been witness to a serious military and diplomatic failure that has exposed major deficiencies in the army’s preparations and performance and in the leadership of a confused and helpless government. ...

Behind a paywall unfortunately

Ian Murray
20-05-2021, 10:30 AM
Behind a paywall unfortunately

You can register for free limited access (three articles per month, I think)

MichaelBaron
20-05-2021, 12:30 PM
The Israelis are responsible for their own actions of firing artillery at Lebanon.

What alternative course of action would you like to suggest for Israel when getting attacked by missiles?

MichaelBaron
20-05-2021, 12:31 PM
Analysis | This Is Israel’s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-this-is-israel-s-most-failed-and-pointless-gaza-operation-ever-it-must-end-now-1.9819484)

As of its ninth day, Operation Guardian of the Walls in Gaza has turned into Israel’s most failed and pointless border war ever, even when measured against the tough competition from the champion league of the Second Lebanon War, and Operations Pillar of Defense, Cast Lead and Protective Edge in Gaza. We have been witness to a serious military and diplomatic failure that has exposed major deficiencies in the army’s preparations and performance and in the leadership of a confused and helpless government. ...

and Hamas terrorism is not ''pointless''? Why the focus is on the country that simply defends itself and its citizens?

Scott Colliver
20-05-2021, 12:32 PM
What alternative course of action would you like to suggest for Israel when getting attacked by missiles?

Diplomatic measures to stop the rockets being fired

Scott Colliver
20-05-2021, 12:33 PM
and Hamas terrorism is not ''pointless''? Why the focus is on the country that simply defends itself and its citizens?

Israel is doing a lot more than defending itself.

MichaelBaron
20-05-2021, 12:34 PM
Diplomatic measures to stop the rockets being fired

would they work? Terrorists are firing rockets...and we are bargaining without responding? How far will we get?

Scott Colliver
21-05-2021, 09:56 AM
We have a ceasefire which hopefully will hold and the wrong killing will stop. It took too long but well done to both sides on agreeing to stop.

MichaelBaron
21-05-2021, 12:11 PM
We have a ceasefire which hopefully will hold and the wrong killing will stop. It took too long but well done to both sides on agreeing to stop.

Lets hope so but with terrorists one can never be sure

Patrick Byrom
21-05-2021, 02:39 PM
Lets hope so but with terrorists one can never be sureAre you implying that Israel negotiates with terrorists?

Good to see that there is now a ceasefire, however.

Scott Colliver
21-05-2021, 05:14 PM
Are you implying that Israel negotiates with terrorists?

Good to see that there is now a ceasefire, however.

Israel did not negotiate with Hamas, Egypt did.

Patrick Byrom
21-05-2021, 05:47 PM
Israel did not negotiate with Hamas, Egypt did.But Israel agreed to the proposed ceasefire, which is a negotiated agreement between Israel and Hamas. So if Michael believes that Hamas are terrorists, then he must also believe that Israel has made an agreement with terrorists.

MichaelBaron
22-05-2021, 12:15 AM
But Israel agreed to the proposed ceasefire, which is a negotiated agreement between Israel and Hamas. So if Michael believes that Hamas are terrorists, then he must also believe that Israel has made an agreement with terrorists.

I believe that it was under international pressure. I also believe it was not the best of the ideas. as Hamas can strike again any time. There is no point signing deals with Barbarians who make both Israel and People of Palestine suffer.

Ian Murray
22-05-2021, 09:20 AM
I believe that it was under international pressure. I also believe it was not the best of the ideas. as Hamas can strike again any time. There is no point signing deals with Barbarians who make both Israel and People of Palestine suffer.

Israeli police lost no time in provoking further violence after the cease fire, again mounting a police presence at Al-Aqsa mosque during Friday prayers. It was partly similar police incursions at the mosque which led to the eleven days of death and destruction in Gaza and Israeli cities, until yesterday's ceasefire brokered by Egypt.

One wonders why the border police find it necessary to take a get-tough stance at a Muslim holy site, which is guaranteed to inflame passions at a very sensitive time.

Israeli forces clash with Palestinians outside Al Aqsa mosque after Gaza ceasefire (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israeli-forces-clash-with-palestinians-outside-al-aqsa-mosque-after-gaza-ceasefire/ar-AAKeREF)

Patrick Byrom
22-05-2021, 12:20 PM
I believe that it was under international pressure. I also believe it was not the best of the ideas. as Hamas can strike again any time. There is no point signing deals with Barbarians who make both Israel and People of Palestine suffer.So what's your solution?

Patrick Byrom
22-05-2021, 12:30 PM
It's hard to disagree with this cynical view of the conflict: (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/05/israel-palestine-ceasefire-gaza-loses-leaders-win.html)


All the same, while there was no “victory” in this confrontation, the leaders involved all got more or less what they wanted out of it. For Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the fighting torpedoed a coalition deal among his opponents that was on the verge of finally ousting him. He will now likely stay in power at least until Israel holds its fifth general election in less than three years, when he will run in the aftermath of a military show of strength. The recent violence also makes the prospect of a Jewish-Arab political coalition—the anti-Bibi bloc’s best hope—less likely. Netanyahu still faces significant political obstacles, including allies from the right who are now criticizing him for agreeing to a cease-fire too quickly, and governing without a majority from election to election doesn’t seem like the most durable long-term political strategy, but it would be foolish to bet against his political survival at this point.

Hamas took the decision on May 9 to begin firing hundreds of rockets at Israel in response to a police crackdown on Palestinian protesters in Jerusalem, knowing that it was likely to provoke a devastating military retaliation from Israel. All in all, despite the carnage in Gaza, the group’s leaders and supporters are probably satisfied with what they accomplished over the past two weeks, as evidenced by the celebrations in the streets of Gaza City on Thursday night. While the vast majority of the rockets fired from Gaza were intercepted by the Iron Dome, Hamas did accomplish a milestone by demonstrating an ability to hit Tel Aviv, Israel’s typically secure commercial capital. And while the group no doubt incurred heavy losses from Israeli airstrikes, its military chief, Muhammad Deif, survived multiple attempts by the Israel Defense Forces to kill him. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, the group’s West Bank–based political rival, looks more isolated and irrelevant than ever, and Hamas has inched closer to being the de facto leader of the Palestinian resistance.

Ian Murray
22-05-2021, 02:39 PM
It's hard to disagree with this cynical view of the conflict: (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/05/israel-palestine-ceasefire-gaza-loses-leaders-win.html)

An essential prerequisite to any ceasefire is a victory claim by both sides.

However a ceasefire is not a peace treaty - a lasting peace is as ethereal as ever. What is clearer than ever is that partition is the only workable solution acceptable to both sides.

Ian Murray
22-05-2021, 02:52 PM
https://youtu.be/5THcQw0ns5s

Ian Murray
22-05-2021, 03:10 PM
Australia Loves Its Jews, but Nearly One in Five Question Their Loyalty, New Survey Shows (https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/asia-and-australia/.premium-australia-loves-its-jews-but-nearly-1-in-5-question-their-loyalty-new-survey-shows-1.9780442)

Australians hold a very favorable view of the local Jewish community, but nearly one in five believe that their connection to Israel compromises their loyalty to Australia, a new survey of attitudes in the country toward the Jewish community, antisemitism and Israel shows.

The survey, titled “CROSSROADS21: Australian Attitudes to Israel and Jewish People,” also shows that the overwhelming majority of Australians care little about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, though in recent years their sympathy toward the Palestinians has strengthened somewhat.

Among those who describe themselves as knowledgeable about the conflict, nearly half believe that their government should adopt a tougher stand toward Israel. ...

To gauge levels of antisemitism in the country, respondents were asked how open they were to befriending Jews and to what degree they accepted certain negative stereotypes about Jews. A total of 92 percent said they were as comfortable having Jewish friends as having friends from other groups in society.

More than 80 percent of respondents disagreed with the notions that Jewish people talk about the Holocaust to further their agenda and that they can’t be trusted in business. Well over 70 percent rejected claims that Jews consider themselves better than other Australians, that they have too much power in the media and that they are more obsessed with money than other Australians. ...

The findings show that two out of three Australians were “not interested at all” or only “a little bit interested” in the Middle East and Israeli-Palestinian conflict. When asked which side they supported, the majority of the respondents (62 percent) said they were equally sympathetic to both, while 19 percent said they sided with the Palestinians and 11 percent with the Israelis. Sympathy with the Palestinians was highest among 18-to-24-year-olds. ...

Patrick Byrom
22-05-2021, 03:28 PM
... However a ceasefire is not a peace treaty - a lasting peace is as ethereal as ever. What is clearer than ever is that partition is the only workable solution acceptable to both sides.Completely agree - it will be interesting to see what Michael's alternative is (if he has one). I'm cautiously optimistic that there will be a solution eventually, but I don't think it will happen under the current leadership (on both sides).

MichaelBaron
22-05-2021, 09:57 PM
Completely agree - it will be interesting to see what Michael's alternative is (if he has one). I'm cautiously optimistic that there will be a solution eventually, but I don't think it will happen under the current leadership (on both sides).

I do have one. First of all stop aid to Palestine unless they stop supporting terrorist organisations.

Patrick Byrom
22-05-2021, 10:43 PM
I do have one. First of all stop aid to Palestine unless they stop supporting terrorist organisations.And how does that solve anything? Even assuming that China would not just step in and replace any lost aid.

MichaelBaron
23-05-2021, 02:48 AM
And how does that solve anything? Even assuming that China would not just step in and replace any lost aid.

The money that goes towards ''people of Palestine'' usually ends up with the terrorists. Corruption in Palestine is well known

antichrist
23-05-2021, 08:23 AM
The money that goes towards ''people of Palestine'' usually ends up with the terrorists. Corruption in Palestine is well known
Just as in Jerusalem where prime ministers are charged with corruption. Israel is also becoming a haven for fleeing criminals.

Ian Murray
23-05-2021, 09:49 AM
Completely agree - it will be interesting to see what Michael's alternative is (if he has one). I'm cautiously optimistic that there will be a solution eventually, but I don't think it will happen under the current leadership (on both sides).

You're right, of course. A change of leadership and vision will be needed to establish peace and eventually harmony between Israel and Palestine. A major stumbling block now is the Israeli settlements strategically placed on Palestinian lands (plus threats of annexation) to make a simple partition impossible. It seems to me that the Israeli government will have to pay off the illegal settlers before returning the land to Palestine.

The alternative is an endless series of wars with ceasefires and a few years of quiet between each to allow both sides to re-arm.

MichaelBaron
23-05-2021, 12:35 PM
You're right, of course. A change of leadership and vision will be needed to establish peace and eventually harmony between Israel and Palestine. A major stumbling block now is the Israeli settlements strategically placed on Palestinian lands (plus threats of annexation) to make a simple partition impossible. It seems to me that the Israeli government will have to pay off the illegal settlers before returning the land to Palestine.

The alternative is an endless series of wars with ceasefires and a few years of quiet between each to allow both sides to re-arm.

''Treats'' should trigger terrorism? There are so many threats around the globe but nothing justifies terrorism. Re ceasefires with terrorists - how productive are those?

Ian Murray
23-05-2021, 01:36 PM
''Treats'' should trigger terrorism? ...

I don't understand what you're trying to say

antichrist
23-05-2021, 02:37 PM
You're right, of course. A change of leadership and vision will be needed to establish peace and eventually harmony between Israel and Palestine. A major stumbling block now is the Israeli settlements strategically placed on Palestinian lands (plus threats of annexation) to make a simple partition impossible. It seems to me that the Israeli government will have to pay off the illegal settlers before returning the land to Palestine.

The alternative is an endless series of wars with ceasefires and a few years of quiet between each to allow both sides to re-arm.

in seventy years there was only Israeli leader who gave land away and that was Sharon, an ex war monger and biggest land grabber. It was only when he realised that they could not hold on to Gaza under "friendly" circumstances. They were non compliant and still are now. Also to achieve peace he realised that there must be "justice" for the Palestinians and a viable two state solution (that I have reservations that any 2 state solution can be just - a contradiction of terms). After another thirty years another Sharon may come along.

Maybe Sharon was sabotaged health wise due to his stated desire to also give the West Bank back to Palestinians.

Capablanca-Fan
24-05-2021, 12:23 AM
I do have one. First of all stop aid to Palestine unless they stop supporting terrorist organisations.

Of course! I don't even see why this should be controversial.

Capablanca-Fan
24-05-2021, 03:56 AM
No, Israel Is Not an Apartheid State (https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/no-israel-is-not-an-apartheid-state/#slide-1)
By RICH LOWRY, National Review, 18 May 2021
It’s a democracy nothing like the South Africa of old.

The charge of apartheid is the new blood libel.

As Hamas rains rockets down on Israel, members of the Squad in Congress and other left-wing enemies are using the occasion to amplify their accusation that Israel is an “apartheid state.”

This is a transparent attempt to delegitimize — and isolate and ultimately destroy — the Jewish state by associating it with a racist regime that the world united to squeeze out of existence.

Israel is a democracy that affords its Arab citizens full rights. They vote in elections, and Arab parties sit in parliament. These parties obviously have a profoundly different worldview than the Zionist parties, which has been a barrier preventing cooperation between them. But this year, in a first, Arab parties were part of the negotiations over forming a new government before they broke down.
Arab Israelis are full participants in Israeli society. There are Arab justices on the Supreme Court. About 20 percent of doctors in Israel and about half of pharmacists are Arab. Roughly 17 percent of students seeking an undergraduate degree are Arab, a number that has roughly doubled over the past decade.

As Steve Kramer of the Times of Israel puts it, “They arguably are the most free Arabs in the Middle East.”

Then, there are the Palestinian territories, where there is a marked lack of democracy, courtesy of the Palestinians themselves.

Much is made of Israel’s border controls in Gaza and the West Bank, but a border isn’t a denial of citizenship rights, rather a demarcation between two societies. If the Palestinians would ever accept the right of Israel to exist and embrace a program of peaceful development, they’d get their own sovereign state.

Instead, they want to wipe Israel from the map and are getting an assist from purveyors of the malicious lie that Israel is morally indistinguishable from the old, racist South Africa.

Ian Murray
24-05-2021, 11:14 AM
Of course! I don't even see why this should be controversial.

Collective punishment is a war crime

Ian Murray
24-05-2021, 11:23 AM
No, Israel Is Not an Apartheid State (https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/no-israel-is-not-an-apartheid-state/#slide-1)

Yes it is

Israeli apartheid factsheet (https://waronwant.org/news-analysis/israeli-apartheid-factsheet)

... The Rome Statute (https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-library/documents/rs-eng.pdf) [of the International Criminal Court] defines the Crime of apartheid as: “inhumane acts...committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” ...

MichaelBaron
24-05-2021, 11:24 AM
Collective punishment is a war crime

Punishment of those who support terrorists? It is a well known fact that when a terrorist attack succeeds, people take it to the streets and distribute sweets to children. Where in civilized world have you seen it happening?
Palestinians have a choice. You are so vocal about Chinese people supporting a political force that you are not happy with but in Palestine you got a violent terrorist force...and you are Ok with it.

Capablanca-Fan
24-05-2021, 11:28 AM
Collective punishment is a war crime

That is what Hamas tries with Israeli citizens. It is not a crime, war or otherwise, to withhold funding to an organization that refuses not to fund terrorism.

Capablanca-Fan
24-05-2021, 11:31 AM
Yes it is

Israeli apartheid factsheet (https://waronwant.org/news-analysis/israeli-apartheid-factsheet)
This silly piece must ignore how Arabs have full human rights—in Israel more in any Arab country—and many occupy the highest positions in Israel.


... The Rome Statute (https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-library/documents/rs-eng.pdf) [of the International Criminal Court] defines the Crime of apartheid as: “inhumane acts...committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” ...

Who cares what the ICC or UN kakistocracies claims?

MichaelBaron
24-05-2021, 11:50 AM
That is what Hamas tries with Israeli citizens. It is not a crime, war or otherwise, to withhold funding to an organization that refuses not to fund terrorism.

Exactly, who is targeting civilians openly and on purpose? Hamas or the Israelis?

Patrick Byrom
24-05-2021, 12:54 PM
Palestinians have a choice. You are so vocal about Chinese people supporting a political force that you are not happy with but in Palestine you got a violent terrorist force...and you are Ok with it.On the contrary, we (Ian, myself - and Capablanca-Fan, among others) are vocal about the Chinese people not being given a choice in who they support. Ian and I are not in favour of punishing Chinese children for the actions of their government, which is what you and Capablanca-Fan are suggesting for the Palestinians.

I notice that neither you nor Capablanca-Fan have dealt with my point that removing our support would simply result in China increasing its aid to the Palestinians, making the situation even worse.

MichaelBaron
24-05-2021, 04:14 PM
On the contrary, we (Ian, myself - and Capablanca-Fan, among others) are vocal about the Chinese people not being given a choice in who they support. Ian and I are not in favour of punishing Chinese children for the actions of their government, which is what you and Capablanca-Fan are suggesting for the Palestinians.

I notice that neither you nor Capablanca-Fan have dealt with my point that removing our support would simply result in China increasing its aid to the Palestinians, making the situation even worse.

If people have a ''democratic'' choice and there are ''democratic'' elections and a terrorist group wins...what does it tell you about the entire cluster? I think its a good idea for Palestine supporters is to first spend 2 weeks living in an Israeli town and have a normal civilized life and after that 2 weeks in Palestine ...and then pick sides. The experience should include going to local authorities for some paperwork and see who will process the paperwork based on the legal standards and who will request a bribe. Muslims live in Israel and many are happy and have a normal life. How can a Jew live in Palestine? And how long will he have a normal life for?

idledim
24-05-2021, 05:37 PM
If people have a ''democratic'' choice and there are ''democratic'' elections and a terrorist group wins...what does it tell you about the entire cluster?

The last elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council were held on 25 January 2006. There have not been any elections either for president or for the legislature since those elections.

Ian Murray
24-05-2021, 05:42 PM
That is what Hamas tries with Israeli citizens. It is not a crime, war or otherwise, to withhold funding to an organization that refuses not to fund terrorism.

Michael's proposed solution, which you agreed with, is to withhold aid from Palestine as a whole, not any specific organisation

Ian Murray
24-05-2021, 05:48 PM
This silly piece must ignore how Arabs have full human rights—in Israel more in any Arab country—and many occupy the highest positions in Israel.

Arabs certainly do not have full human rights in Israel. From the latest Amnesty world report:-


... Discrimination

Israel continued to discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in areas of planning, budget allocation, policing and political participation. According to the Adalah-The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, Israel maintains over 65 laws that discriminate against Palestinians.

Local Palestinian councils in Israel went on strike to protest against discrimination in the distribution of the state budget for local councils. The vast majority of Palestinians in Israel, comprising over 20% of the total population, live in around 139 towns and villages. They received only 1.7% of the state budget for local councils.

In August, Adalah and the Arab Center for Alternative Planning filed a petition to the Israeli Supreme Court on behalf of 10 local Palestinian councils and dozens of Palestinian citizens of Israel against government policy discriminating against these communities in the distribution of housing, construction and land development benefits compared to neighbouring Jewish communities that enjoy higher socio-economic status and have access to such benefits.

Israel continued to deny Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Palestinian citizens of Israel the right to nationality by enforcing the discriminatory Entry to Israel Law.

In December, the magistrate court in Krayot, near Haifa, rejected a petition for access to education by Palestinian citizens of Israel living in Karmiel, citing the discriminatory Nation State Law. The decision said that establishing an Arabic school in the town or funding transport for its Palestinian residents to study in Arabic schools in nearby communities would undermine the town’s “Jewish character”.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/


Who cares what the ICC or UN kakistocracies claims?

Rational people

Ian Murray
24-05-2021, 05:54 PM
... The experience should include going to local authorities for some paperwork and see who will process the paperwork based on the legal standards ...

Like a Palestinian trying to obtain a building permit in East Jerusalem. 'Sorry, Jews only'


Muslims live in Israel and many are happy and have a normal life.

Behind the uprisings among Palestinians with Israeli citizenship (https://abcnews.go.com/International/uprisings-palestinians-israeli-citizenship/story?id=77741627)
Recent laws passed in Israel gave "unique" rights to only its Jewish citizens

The Israeli government declared a state of emergency on May 12 in the Tel Aviv suburb of Lod after a sudden outburst of rioting by Israeli Arabs, as the hostilities between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza escalated.

The growing tension had ignited in Lod two days previously, after a Palestinian citizen was shot dead by a Jewish resident, sparking a wave of violence in the days after his funeral. At least one synagogue and several Jewish businesses were set alight by suspected Arab citizens. Throngs of Israeli Jews threw stones and attacked a car driven by an Arab.

Israeli media reported several instances of these kind of attacks on drivers by both Jewish and Arab suspects. The Israeli President Reuven Rivlin urged calm, warning of a "senseless civil war" between the country's Arabs and Jewish citizens as the violence intensified. The violence led to the death of one Israeli Jew, 56-year-old Yigal Yehoshua, who was hit in the head with a brick. ...

Patrick Byrom
24-05-2021, 06:19 PM
If people have a ''democratic'' choice and there are ''democratic'' elections and a terrorist group wins...what does it tell you about the entire cluster?It tells me nothing about the children who didn't vote in the election, who you and Capablanca-Fan want to punish.

b.nancarrow
24-05-2021, 06:24 PM
It tells me nothing about the children who didn't vote in the election, who you and Capablanca-Fan want to punish.

Hamas do a pretty good job of putting Palestinian children in harms way, to be fair.

Patrick Byrom
24-05-2021, 07:09 PM
Hamas do a pretty good job of putting Palestinian children in harms way, to be fair.That's an argument for sanctions against Hamas, but not for sanctions against Palestinian children. For the record, Australia only supplies $10 million in aid anyway, all directed through the UN (rather than directly to Hamas or the PLO).

Ian Murray
24-05-2021, 09:11 PM
Exactly, who is targeting civilians openly and on purpose? Hamas or the Israelis?

Both

Strike from Gaza kills two as Israel topples six-storey building (https://www.9news.com.au/world/israel-hamas-trade-fire-in-gaza-as-war-rages-on/49a82308-7617-4d95-8012-991b9cca12f6)

MichaelBaron
25-05-2021, 01:24 PM
That's an argument for sanctions against Hamas, but not for sanctions against Palestinian children. For the record, Australia only supplies $10 million in aid anyway, all directed through the UN (rather than directly to Hamas or the PLO).

Really, and how do you propose to do it? And how about no sunctions agains Israeli children?

MichaelBaron
25-05-2021, 01:25 PM
Both

Strike from Gaza kills two as Israel topples six-storey building (https://www.9news.com.au/world/israel-hamas-trade-fire-in-gaza-as-war-rages-on/49a82308-7617-4d95-8012-991b9cca12f6)

If Israel does not believe there are terrorists in the building, it won't attack...Hamas on the contrary - loves targeting civilians on purpose.

Ian Murray
25-05-2021, 02:05 PM
If Israel does not believe there are terrorists in the building, it won't attack...Hamas on the contrary - loves targeting civilians on purpose.

Dream on

Israeli airstrikes kill civilians and damage MSF clinic in Gaza (https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians-and-damage-msf-clinic-gaza)

Gaza: Israeli airstrikes kill doctors and damage healthcare facilities (https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1300)

Patrick Byrom
25-05-2021, 06:46 PM
Really, and how do you propose to do it? And how about no sunctions agains Israeli children?How do I propose to do what? There are no official Australian sanctions against Israel that I'm aware of, let alone against Israeli children.

Scott Colliver
26-05-2021, 11:45 PM
If Israel does not believe there are terrorists in the building, it won't attack...Hamas on the contrary - loves targeting civilians on purpose.

I don't care whether Israel believes there is terrorists in a building, it is wrong to kill.

Israel wrongly killed children, many children. Israel must never again attack Gaza.

machomortensen
27-05-2021, 05:05 AM
Israel will - and shall - attack Gaza, as long as the hamas-crybabies are there, and despite that they always try to hide behind women and children.

Do the words "peaceful coexistence" even exist in Arabic?

Ian Murray
27-05-2021, 08:46 AM
Israel will - and shall - attack Gaza, as long as the hamas-crybabies are there, and despite that they always try to hide behind women and children.

Do the words "peaceful coexistence" even exist in Arabic?

How does one peacefully co-exist with invaders occupying one's land and restricting one's people to a subsistence economy?

antichrist
28-05-2021, 12:05 AM
Israel will - and shall - attack Gaza, as long as the hamas-crybabies are there, and despite that they always try to hide behind women and children.

Do the words "peaceful coexistence" even exist in Arabic?

You defended the biggest cry baby of them all when Michael sooked after I highlighted his manuel castleing. Those Gazans had to flee now Israel seventy years ago and still suffer every day in every way. Walk a life in their shoes. European Jews do have land in Lithuania for example that they have never been compensated for. They should not steal other people's land.

machomortensen
28-05-2021, 09:59 PM
Could you please, Ian Murray & AC, tell me what the currency was in so-called Palestine in 1948? What form of government did they have? Where were the government offices? Etc.

antichrist
28-05-2021, 11:16 PM
Could you please, Ian Murray & AC, tell me what the currency was in so-called Palestine in 1948? What form of government did they have? Where were the government offices? Etc.

It was under the British Mandate - a continuation of British and French colonialism and imperialism. The carving up if the Middle East after WW1. Actually the British handled it to the UN because of the work of the Jewish terrorists bombing King David Hotel etc..

The British carved up the M/E in a manner to control oil (Iraq) and the Suez Canel.

We will drop the Sook of the Year nominations)

antichrist
29-05-2021, 05:50 AM
Now Morto, now that Israel is much more military powerful than Lithuania they should go back invade and take back land. It was the Jerusalem of the North. And they legitimately purchased that land over many centuries - not stolen by force that they perpetrated in Palestine since year dot. They could repeat the same dose in Hungary etc etc. I am sure the USA will back them every step of the way.

Ian Murray
29-05-2021, 12:21 PM
Could you please, Ian Murray & AC, tell me what the currency was in so-called Palestine in 1948? What form of government did they have? Where were the government offices? Etc.

That's a facile argument, Henrik, one you've copied-and-pasted from a pro-Israel site. There are many, many nation-states which did not exist pre-1947 or pre-1919 (e.g. Slovakia, Pakistan, Kenya, Laos, Timor-Leste) - it is patently absurd to suggest those lands and their cities and towns were unoccupied and their populations non-existent.

machomortensen
29-05-2021, 09:52 PM
"That's a facile argument, Henrik, one you've copied-and-pasted from a pro-Israel site."

LOL ... Should this be a kind of a reply?

MichaelBaron
30-05-2021, 12:40 AM
"That's a facile argument, Henrik, one you've copied-and-pasted from a pro-Israel site."

LOL ... Should this be a kind of a reply?

Henrik, welcome to chesschat political discussions :) :) :). Enjoy debating with the left-wing!

MichaelBaron
30-05-2021, 12:42 AM
That's a facile argument, Henrik, one you've copied-and-pasted from a pro-Israel site. There are many, many nation-states which did not exist pre-1947 or pre-1919 (e.g. Slovakia, Pakistan, Kenya, Laos, Timor-Leste) - it is patently absurd to suggest those lands and their cities and towns were unoccupied and their populations non-existent.

Hamas and co are making it clear, they want complete destruction of Israel and to ''kill all the jews'' ...so what is Israel supposed to do with them?

antichrist
30-05-2021, 08:37 AM
Hamas and co are making it clear, they want complete destruction of Israel and to ''kill all the jews'' ...so what is Israel supposed to do with them?

Get the millions of Zionists robbers off their land and the problem will no longer exist. Their legally acquired land is right across Europe. Bomb there instead don't be terrorists to innocent people and create more injustice

Ian Murray
30-05-2021, 08:53 AM
"That's a facile argument, Henrik, one you've copied-and-pasted from a pro-Israel site."

LOL ... Should this be a kind of a reply?

So where did you find it before quoting it unattributed? You can't claim it as original - it's been used in this thread before.

Ian Murray
30-05-2021, 08:54 AM
Henrik, welcome to chesschat political discussions :) :) :). Enjoy debating with the left-wing!

Says the Great Debater of the Right

Ian Murray
30-05-2021, 08:56 AM
Hamas and co are making it clear, they want complete destruction of Israel and to ''kill all the jews'' ...so what is Israel supposed to do with them?

Another sweeping statement of opinion without evidence.

antichrist
30-05-2021, 10:03 AM
Another sweeping statement of opinion without evidence.

After 70 years of being in refugee camps in Gaza due to Zionist terrorism many people of the world understand their predicament. Hamas is a reaction to colonialism in the Middle East going back a century.

I wish Morto would re enter the Colosseum.

Patrick Byrom
30-05-2021, 11:35 AM
Says the Great Debater of the RightMost political debates on Chess Chat follow the same pattern. Firstly right-wingers make ridiculous unsupported claims. Left-wingers then refute the nonsense with obvious facts. Then the right-wingers admit that they were wrong - oops, just kidding! Being a right-winger means never admitting you're wrong! Instead the right-wingers simply ignore the refutation.

For example, Ian made a substantive point about how many countries have come into existence in the last 100 years, which has been ignored. And I'm still waiting for a reply to a simple question I asked Michael almost a week ago:

How do I propose to do what? There are no official Australian sanctions against Israel that I'm aware of, let alone against Israeli children.

My solution is the same response I would have in a chess game: If right-wingers are going to leave their clock running and walk away when they are losing, then I will simply claim the forfeit.

MichaelBaron
30-05-2021, 12:00 PM
Another sweeping statement of opinion without evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
You can pick where you want to start reading the covenant...Article 13 for instance...