PDA

View Full Version : total entry fees to be made public



bobby1992
21-01-2004, 10:15 PM
how about the total entry fees to be made public then the prizes, and expenses to compare, it seems a very fair way to run turneys that way its all out in the open.

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 07:37 AM
how about the total entry fees to be made public then the prizes, and expenses to compare, it seems a very fair way to run turneys that way its all out in the open.

Ascaro

More chess administration questions from you. :shock:

You really do want to be on the MCC Committee don't you. :shock:

Have you decided which position you are going to stand for? Looks like Treasurer to me based on this latest question. ;)

OK. We will show ours after you show me yours. Get Angelo to put together a template of format on how you want it presented and I will prepare mine.
And I will put mine on display at the next CV Committee meeting. Is good?


starter

firegoat7
22-01-2004, 08:41 AM
Hello,


My question is addressed to Starter.Why are you connecting Ascaro's comments with MCC?

He is a member of Box Hill and MCC who is asking a question. Instead of giving him a reply you play politics with him. Dosen't he deserve a response?

bobby1972
22-01-2004, 09:56 AM
i will never be in any comittee i dont want to be ever,i just asking a question,about where the money goes,why such reaction ,why all this about ridicule with my name and sheep,why dont we stick to the matter of entry and prizes,why is this such apainful question,i told you last tournament at mcc all entry fee yes pal all was paid in prizes now when i say all just do the math 10 players entry fee was $50,$40,and $5 discount for club members,prizes paid 1st $300,2nd and 3rd $80 each now that comes to $460 dollars we collected exacltly $460 now are people going to ridicule this too ,this are facts,no politics how about a straight answer where is the money saythat bh open 86 players at a minimum of $15 each and not all where concession makes $1290 that figure is the minimum amount collected how much was paid out? simple math no sheeps or goats .dont other players in this tourney wander why prizes are so low .1st $100 2nd and 3rd $50 each.over to you sir.

Bill Gletsos
22-01-2004, 10:43 AM
i will never be in any comittee i dont want to be ever
Ah the take what you can from the sport but out nothing back in attitude.


,i just asking a question,about where the money goes,why such reaction ,why all this about ridicule with my name and sheep,why dont we stick to the matter of entry and prizes,why is this such apainful question,i told you last tournament at mcc all entry fee yes pal all was paid in prizes now when i say all just do the math 10 players entry fee was $50,$40,and $5 discount for club members,prizes paid 1st $300,2nd and 3rd $80 each now that comes to $460 dollars we collected exacltly $460 now are people going to ridicule this too ,this are facts,no politics how about a straight answer where is the money saythat bh open 86 players at a minimum of $15 each and not all where concession makes $1290 that figure is the minimum amount collected how much was paid out? simple math no sheeps or goats .dont other players in this tourney wander why prizes are so low .1st $100 2nd and 3rd $50 each.over to you sir.
Haven't some of you guys ever heard of expenses.

What about rent, rating fees etc.

Even the MCC which owns its own premises must have to pay council rates, water rates and electricity.

The money has to come from somewhere.

skip to my lou
22-01-2004, 11:00 AM
Ah the take what you can from the sport but out nothing back in attitude.

You dont have to get involved in commitees and politics to give something back.

Bill Gletsos
22-01-2004, 11:13 AM
Ah the take what you can from the sport but out nothing back in attitude.

You dont have to get involved in commitees and politics to give something back.
Although that is undoubtedly true, there are far more takers than givers.

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 11:20 AM
My question is addressed to Starter.Why are you connecting Ascaro's comments with MCC?



hi firegoat.
A reasonable question that you ask.
Ascaro Pecori is listed in the Chess VICTORIA Registrar’s books as
‘Primary Club = MCC’.
A reasonable answer?





He is a member of Box Hill and MCC who is asking a question.

Correct



Instead of giving him a reply you play politics with him.



If he thinks the ‘humour’ that Barry and I indulged in yesterday is ‘politics’ then I will have to use more emoticons to say when I am tongue in cheek.
Lighten up guys.

I thought humour was acceptable to Ascaro when he introduced that very funny line about ‘mickey mouse’ clubs that are not the MCC.




Doesn't he deserve a response?



Basically, I didn’t deny him a response, eventually. I simply raised the issue of format.

I notice a second post from him on the same thread, and it is more definitive of what detail he requires. I will have a look at it.

starter

Rincewind
22-01-2004, 12:10 PM
why all this about ridicule with my name and sheep

Ascaro, let me apologise unreservedly for that - mia culpa.

As I said it was just a casual one line something like the new crowned Australian Champion is now forced to endure (Winning the Aust Champ in the Fast Lane, etc, etc, etc) - and certainly no offence was intended.

I apologise too for the thread drift, starter apparently became intrigued at the comment and the whole thing snowballed. You won't hear me again in the this thread unless it is to comment on entry fee/prize money disparity.

:D

arosar
22-01-2004, 12:14 PM
As I said it was just a casual one line something like the new crowned Australian Champion is now forced to endure (Winning the Aust Champ in the Fast Lane, etc, etc, etc) - and certainly no offence was intended.

There is a difference mate. You were clearly poking fun at his ethnicity. Even Mr starter, too, with his, "Is good?" remark.

AR

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 12:18 PM
i will never be in any comittee i dont want to be ever,



Ok Ascaro
I will stop with the Committee jokes, for you.



i just asking a question,about where the money goes



The Box Hill web-site at
http://www.boxhillchess.org.au/e2003/e0309fop/results.htm
shows prizes paid were $450.

Your calculation shows $1290 income from entry fees.
Subtract $5 x 86 players = $430 for rating from the ACF.
This leaves $410 to cover costs.

It was a 9 week tournament and rent is $50 per night.
It had a paid arbiter some nights at $20 per night.
Scoresheets cost $8.60 per night.




why all this about ridicule with my name and sheep


Ok Ascaro
I will stop with the sheep and name jokes, for you.
BTW are you a confirmed starter for the VIC OPEN?



,why dont we stick to the matter of entry and prizes,why is this such a painful question



Not a painful question by you Ascaro. Quite a reasonable question. I hope you find the details above answers the question.




,i told you last tournament at mcc all entry fee yes pal all was paid in prizes


Ascaro, I am reluctant to comment on this part because the MCC VP wants me to deal with you as a BH member.




,no politics how about a straight answer where is the money saythat bh open 86 players at a minimum of $15 each and not all where concession makes $1290 that figure is the minimum amount collected how much was paid out? simple math



Did you understand the detail I gave above about prizes, rating fees and costs? Feel free to ask more.



dont other players in this tourney want to know why prizes are so low



Ascaro, no-one else has asked about prize distribution. (Except Anton Nincevic who wanted a best senior prize also in the bottom half because he was peeved that Fluedy always won the best senior in the top half).

starter

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 12:34 PM
As I said it was just a casual one line something like the new crowned Australian Champion is now forced to endure (Winning the Aust Champ in the Fast Lane, etc, etc, etc) - and certainly no offence was intended.

There is a difference mate. You were clearly poking fun at his ethnicity. Even Mr starter, too, with his, "Is good?" remark.

AR
AR
I have spent my whole lunch-break apologising for yesterday. Let me do one more, as I missed this one so far. "It was not so good"


BTW, Barry, I think I will stick to maths puzzles in future. Any more coming?


starter

Rincewind
22-01-2004, 12:48 PM
As I said it was just a casual one line something like the new crowned Australian Champion is now forced to endure (Winning the Aust Champ in the Fast Lane, etc, etc, etc) - and certainly no offence was intended.

There is a difference mate. You were clearly poking fun at his ethnicity. Even Mr starter, too, with his, "Is good?" remark.

Not at all, mate. The only thing was my pun only made sense if you knew Italian, just as the Gary Lane puns only make sense if you know English. There was was nothing related to ethnicity (except Mrs starter's comments about New Zealanders for which I cannot be held responsible, surely).

I have never met Ascaro but judging from his name I thought there was a fair chance he knew Italian so the comment was really meant to be a private chuckle between ourselves.

In fact I still don't know if Ascaro's ethnicity is Italian (his name certainly isn't typically Italian). Even if Ascaro is Italian I don't think you could label be as anti-Italian since (for one thing) I am married to an Italo-Australian and have studied to a limited extent the language, history and culture.

PS Looks like I couldn't keep my previous promise. Sorry. Last post for sure. So if you are going to continue to troll, arosar, please do it in another thread.

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 01:00 PM
As I said it was just a casual one line something like the new crowned Australian Champion is now forced to endure (Winning the Aust Champ in the Fast Lane, etc, etc, etc) - and certainly no offence was intended.

There is a difference mate. You were clearly poking fun at his ethnicity. Even Mr starter, too, with his, "Is good?" remark.

Not at all, mate. The only thing was my pun only made sense if you knew Italian, just as the Gary Lane puns only make sense if you know English. There was was nothing related to ethnicity (except Mrs starter's comments about New Zealanders for which I cannot be held responsible, surely).


I have never met Ascaro but judging from his name I thought there was a fair chance he knew Italian so the comment was really meant to be a private chuckle between ourselves.

In fact I still don't know if Ascaro's ethnicity is Italian (his name certainly isn't typically Italian). Even if Ascaro is Italian I don't think you could label be as anti-Italian since (for one thing) I am married to an Italo-Australian and have studied to a limited extent the language, history and culture.

PS Looks like I couldn't keep my previous promise. Sorry. Last post for sure. So if you are going to continue to troll, arosar, please do it in another thread.

AR, Barry
Sorry.
Ascaro is a beaut bloke.
I am married to an Italian.
The NZ comment was probably gratuitous but who at that stage of the thread, apart from Barry, was following the drift of the conversation.
:-# :-# :-# :-# :-# :-#
starter

Ian Rout
22-01-2004, 01:21 PM
The Canberra Chess Club, where I play from time to time, has a formula where a fixed component of the entry fee ($5 per head) goes into the prize pool. The rest goes to consolidated revenue to meet rent and other running costs of the club. Prizes amount to probably less than 25% of the club's costs; rent is the big one. Belconnen is similar in a sense; it doesn't have prizes.

While it's reasonable to expect that there would be some connection between prizes and entry fees, as prizes are a portion of costs it will only be approximate. Also many expenses especially rent are fixed independent of entries.

A body like the Doeberl Cup committee does a financial report for the event but I have never seen a club prepare reports on a tournament by tournament basis - to do it meaningfully you would have to write back costs like deterioration of equipment, pro-rata share of general administration, etc; but in any case you would just come up with the not entirely earth-shattering conclusion that there are positive and negative balances that cancel each other out over the year.

In my experience most members aren't that worried about the day to day finances which is why they have a club Treasurer to look after it. Of course we would expect a Treasurer to know how much in entry fees was taken if anybody asks.

Bob1
22-01-2004, 06:29 PM
I have always created a spreadsheet "budget" for all events I (have) run where entry fees exceed about $500. (NSWCA, Fairfield and Canterbury) - I often do a number of scenarios with different entry numbers & mixes.

I then copy this budget and enter the actuals for the event and see how I went with the prediction.

And I'm getting better at it.

I am now looking for better ways to determine prize distribution.
I have tried two extremes with a >$2000 prize pool.

1st 2nd & third only (best elite turnout I have had)

and another with lots of divisional prizes - I think >40% took a prize (took forever to work out - and the presentation was longer than the last round.

I am still no wiser as to what works best.

The fixed costs
Arbiter
Rent
Rating Fees
GP Fees
Equipment Hire
Score sheets

are often a significant proportion of the budget

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 07:03 PM
I am now looking for better ways to determine prize distribution.
I have tried two extremes with a >$2000 prize pool.

1st 2nd & third only (best elite turnout I have had)

and another with lots of divisional prizes - I think >40% took a prize (took forever to work out - and the presentation was longer than the last round.

I am still no wiser as to what works best.



Bob
The old BB debated this interesting dilemma. And though I joined late, I think Matt's 'Tournament of the Common Man' must have been a consequence of the debate. Some of the older posters would know.
We have the best of both worlds in Melbourne with the two most financial organisations (Chess World and the MCC) both leaning to the elite solution. Whereas Box Hill, Whitehorse and smaller Clubs offer the other wider distribution of small prizes.

Other factors come into play also.
> Week-enders attract some, while others prefer a weekly event.
>> Some elite players like plenty of competitive games; hence they head for grades (or Interclub as it is called here).


Chess players will choose what suits them best. There is no one answer that suits all.

starter

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 07:09 PM
The fixed costs


Equipment Hire




It does surprise me that this not a service provided by your State Association. We run a few large tournaments which require 50 digital clocks to be provided by Chess Victoria. This is a service we expect to be available to an AFFILIATED club. The last thing we would expect is a charge from our representative body. Any charge would certainly put a further hole in our prize fund.

starter

Bill Gletsos
22-01-2004, 07:42 PM
The fixed costs


Equipment Hire




It does surprise me that this not a service provided by your State Association. We run a few large tournaments which require 50 digital clocks to be provided by Chess Victoria. This is a service we expect to be available to an AFFILIATED club. The last thing we would expect is a charge from our representative body. Any charge would certainly put a further hole in our prize fund.

starter
Ah grasshopper you forget that in Victoria CV membership is based on clubs. In NSW it isnt.

If the organiser can ensure that all players in his tournament are NSWCA members then their is no charge for the use of the NSWCA clocks.

Bob1
22-01-2004, 08:22 PM
I think the equipment situation in NSW is fine.
I have probably used (hired) the NSWCA equipment more than most other organisers (or acted as their hired DOP) in the last 12+ months.

NSWCA always provides me excellent equipment at a fixed cost (agreed fee - see othe BB posts). They have even been good enought to allow me to use their scoresheets (for which I have paid).

The NSWCA promotes all chess in NSW.

It is not unreasonable that players in an event subsidise the maintenance & upkeep of the equipment they use at an event.
Chess pieces get lost - batteries need replacement.
(and in the last event I even lost a chess clock - as an organiser I have to pay for that so the NSWCA are not out of pocket). Remember NSWCA represents all it's members - I am just one of them.

Over a 1 year period I am able to balance all these costs. (even if I have to pay from my own pocket - rare)

Bill's point of free equipment hire for any event where all entrants are NSWCA members is very valid - and easy to enforce. (especially as I always have the NSWCA Treasurer at my events)

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 09:36 PM
The fixed costs


Equipment Hire




It does surprise me that this not a service provided by your State Association. We run a few large tournaments which require 50 digital clocks to be provided by Chess Victoria. This is a service we expect to be available to an AFFILIATED club. The last thing we would expect is a charge from our representative body. Any charge would certainly put a further hole in our prize fund.

starter
Ah grasshopper you forget that in Victoria CV membership is based on clubs. In NSW it isnt.

If the organiser can ensure that all players in his tournament are NSWCA members then their is no charge for the use of the NSWCA clocks.


hi Bill
What does the grasshopper tag mean? :?

No, how could I ever forget that NSW membership is based on individuals, not Clubs. You have told me often enough.

But it does raise another question that I don't think I have explored before.
If you hire the clocks out free if all the players are NSW members, then I presume you are implying that some tournaments are a mixture of NSW members and non-NSW members. Yes/No?
These ‘mixed’ tournaments; are all games rated, or just the games between members?
(No ambush in this one. Just a genuine enquiry so that I can understand).

starter

Bill Gletsos
22-01-2004, 09:42 PM
The fixed costs


Equipment Hire




It does surprise me that this not a service provided by your State Association. We run a few large tournaments which require 50 digital clocks to be provided by Chess Victoria. This is a service we expect to be available to an AFFILIATED club. The last thing we would expect is a charge from our representative body. Any charge would certainly put a further hole in our prize fund.

starter
Ah grasshopper you forget that in Victoria CV membership is based on clubs. In NSW it isnt.

If the organiser can ensure that all players in his tournament are NSWCA members then their is no charge for the use of the NSWCA clocks.


hi Bill
What does the grasshopper tag mean? :?
Remember the old Kung Fu TV series where the wise old Master monk imparted wisdom the the young monk(grasshopper). :D


No, how could I ever forget that NSW membership is based on individuals, not Clubs. You have told me often enough.
Glad to hear it. ;)


But it does raise another question that I don't think I have explored before.
If you hire the clocks out free if all the players are NSW members, then I presume you are implying that some tournaments are a mixture of NSW members and non-NSW members. Yes/No?
These ‘mixed’ tournaments; are all games rated, or just the games between members?
(No ambush in this one. Just a genuine enquiry so that I can understand).

Correct we rate all tournaments submitted whether the participants are all NSW members or not.

ursogr8
22-01-2004, 09:59 PM
Correct we rate all tournaments submitted whether the participants are all NSW members or not.


Hmm
You know, now that you write it like that I think I knew before.
And I think the next question I asked previously was …do members and non-members pay the same amount to have their games rated? And I think the answer is yes.

Then we get to the point that the Victorian approach of only rating games played in AFFILIATED Clubs actually encourages players to join Clubs >> so that they can get a rating.

And now I can see why I don’t like the NSW structure much. Players are not motivated to join Clubs for the purpose of getting a rating.

1 Have I misunderstood?
2 Do I have a point.

starter

Bill Gletsos
22-01-2004, 10:43 PM
Correct we rate all tournaments submitted whether the participants are all NSW members or not.


Hmm
You know, now that you write it like that I think I knew before.
And I think the next question I asked previously was …do members and non-members pay the same amount to have their games rated? And I think the answer is yes.
Actually the acf admin fees are payed by the tournament organiser. How he funds it is up to him.
All players in NSWCA tournaments must be members.


Then we get to the point that the Victorian approach of only rating games played in AFFILIATED Clubs actually encourages players to join Clubs >> so that they can get a rating.
Well given your membership structure is based on clubs it would be a little diffiult to do it differently.


And now I can see why I don’t like the NSW structure much. Players are not motivated to join Clubs for the purpose of getting a rating.
Why should they in a state where Clubs are not members but individuals are members.

ursogr8
23-01-2004, 07:22 AM
Correct we rate all tournaments submitted whether the participants are all NSW members or not.


Hmm
You know, now that you write it like that I think I knew before.
And I think the next question I asked previously was …do members and non-members pay the same amount to have their games rated? And I think the answer is yes.
Actually the acf admin fees are payed by the tournament organiser. How he funds it is up to him.
All players in NSWCA tournaments must be members.


Then we get to the point that the Victorian approach of only rating games played in AFFILIATED Clubs actually encourages players to join Clubs >> so that they can get a rating.
Well given your membership structure is based on clubs it would be a little diffiult to do it differently.


And now I can see why I don’t like the NSW structure much. Players are not motivated to join Clubs for the purpose of getting a rating.
Why should they in a state where Clubs are not members but individuals are members.
Bill
Is what you are saying that you do not judge it to be the role of the State Association to be doing ANY action to encourage individuals to join local Clubs.
Or are you saying that you do not judge it to be the role of the State Association to be encouraging individuals to join local Clubs via the STATE Ratings OFFICERS policy-rules for which events he rates?

starter

arosar
23-01-2004, 07:28 AM
Yo starter . . . apologies for distracting you mate . . . but are you the bloke with the funny European name who emailed me some details on some outback tourney in Victoria?

AR

ursogr8
23-01-2004, 07:41 AM
Yo starter . . . apologies for distracting you mate . . . but are you the bloke with the funny European name who emailed me some details on some outback tourney in Victoria?

AR

hi AR

Having dropped me in it with "Is good", now you reverse the roles with
'Yo starter'. Looks rather ethnic to me.

Then you set me up for being clouted if I make a wrong guess as to what is a 'funny European name'.

Do you really expect me to answer?

Without prejudice I advise you
1 Drouin...contact David Bell
2 Ballarat...contact Bas van Riel
3 Melbourne...contact Ascaro Pecori


starter

PS
And no, my name is not funny. In fact, I am swearing off humour after the 'sheep' joke my wife landed me in. ;)