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PHAT
03-09-2005, 01:34 AM
The reason that the man made New Orleans desaster is not being "fixed" is that 90% of the peole there are black. No Australian who has lived and worked in the USA (as I have) will disagree.

bergil
03-09-2005, 02:23 AM
The reason that the man made New Orleans desaster is not being "fixed" is that 90% of the peole there are black. No Australian who has lived and worked in the USA (as I have) will disagree.
The tragedy in New Orleans was not man made and foolish of you to say so, it has however been made worse by poor planning and rescue management by the state and federal governments. Adding to the problem is the scum with guns who are shooting at the rescuers! :evil:

I was sickened when that moron George.W.Bush, was interviewed with a idiot grin on his face when responding to question about the speed and amount of resources being given. He also went on to say that the private sector was expected to make a sizeable contribution.

arosar
03-09-2005, 02:28 AM
. . . it has however been made worse by poor planning and rescue management by the state and federal governments. Adding to the problem is the scum with guns who are shooting at the rescuers! :evil:

I think that's what Matt was referring to as "man-made disaster". He seems to have borrowed the observation from today's editorial of NYT.

AR

Garvinator
03-09-2005, 02:37 AM
the man made disaster is in two parts:

1) Deciding in the first place to allow such a large city to be built below sea level in a known hurricane hot spot.
2) Not building the levees to be able to withstand the storm surge of a cat 5 hurricane. The levees were only built for a cat 3 hurricane.

I am trying to think of in the world a worse spot for a large city.

PHAT
03-09-2005, 02:50 AM
The tragedy in New Orleans was not man made and foolish of you to say so, ...

If a nuclear reactor was built on top of an active volcano, I would call it a man made disaster.


Adding to the problem is the scum with guns who are shooting at the rescuers! :evil:
The evil is the scum that created the scum and then gave that scum the right to have guns.


I was sickened when that moron George.W.Bush...

Agreed.

bergil
03-09-2005, 03:02 AM
the man made disaster is in two parts:

1) Deciding in the first place to allow such a large city to be built below sea level in a known hurricane hot spot.
2) Not building the levees to be able to withstand the storm surge of a cat 5 hurricane. The levees were only built for a cat 3 hurricane.

I am trying to think of in the world a worse spot for a large city.
Anywhere you reside? What a simpleton you must be!

Cat 5 hurricanes don't happen all the time or they didn't before global warming. How many people live in 100 year flood zones or near volcano's and fault lines? C'mon tell us where all the people should live who have the potential of a natural disaster. So pacific islands out, Japan's out, half of the U.S.A out, and so on and on

bergil
03-09-2005, 03:07 AM
If a nuclear reactor was built on top of an active volcano, I would call it a man made disaster.
That didn't happen as usual you go off on some bulls**t tangent!



The evil is the scum that created the scum and then gave that scum the right to have guns.
More crud that is not relavant



Agreed.[/QUOTE]
Good that we can finally agree with each other

antichrist
03-09-2005, 11:12 AM
The damage caused by the hurricane is mainly to property and probably the same as only a planeful of clusterbombs, and how many planeloads did USA drop on Iraq? That was a deliberate man-made act to eliminate people, the hurricane was not - so which was worse, God or Man? (USA man to be specific)

bergil
03-09-2005, 02:03 PM
The damage caused by the hurricane is mainly to property and probably the same as only a planeful of clusterbombs, and how many planeloads did USA drop on Iraq? That was a deliberate man-made act to eliminate people, the hurricane was not - so which was worse, God or Man? (USA man to be specific)
The tragic situation in New Orleans is not to be compared with Iraq, only a fool would try to make such a shallow and pathetic comparison. The one thing that links them is that people died that would rather have lived, this is not a political game!

Regardless of America's stupidity elsewhere, these people are just as deserving of our compassion and sympathy as any on the planet.

antichrist
03-09-2005, 03:31 PM
If USA had about a two hundred New Orleans they may get an inkling of what they are inflicting upon Iraq. The callice destructure of infrastructure and life in Iraq was deliberate , where in New Orleans it is only infrastructure and was "unavoidable".

The New Orleanians by their own suffering may learn a little something of what their nation is doing overseas. That is the only good that could come out of it. But I won't hold my breath.

WhiteElephant
03-09-2005, 04:25 PM
Bergil mate, take it easy. You have called MS foolish, gg a simpleton and A/C a fool in the space of a few posts. Argue, the point, mate, namecalling is not required.

On the subject of Matthew's original post, I don't believe the USA is filth, they are displaying the arrogance characteristic of the dominant power, which history has shown will likely lead to its own downfall. I don't think this is a problem peculiar to the USA, it is simply human nature when granted too much power, at the individual or national level. Remember that poem we all studied at high school: 'I am Ozymandias, King of Kings........'

PHAT
03-09-2005, 05:34 PM
I don't believe the USA is filth, they are displaying the arrogance characteristic of the dominant power...

WE, perhaps you have a different understanding to me, of the word "filth." I mean it as being corrupting, polluting, deceiving, immoral blah blah blah. As such, a hedgemony such as the USA cannot be anything but filth. To re-jig a phrase to fit your own description of the USA, an arrogant dominating power corrupts, and an absolutely arrogant dominating power corrupts absolutely.

The whole man made New Orleans-Katrina disaster has grown from a corrupting, polluting, deceiving, immoral society. Thus, USA is filth.

WhiteElephant
03-09-2005, 06:26 PM
WE, perhaps you have a different understanding to me, of the word "filth." I mean it as being corrupting, polluting, deceiving, immoral blah blah blah. As such, a hedgemony such as the USA cannot be anything but filth. To re-jig a phrase to fit your own description of the USA, an arrogant dominating power corrupts, and an absolutely arrogant dominating power corrupts absolutely.

The whole man made New Orleans-Katrina disaster has grown from a corrupting, polluting, deceiving, immoral society. Thus, USA is filth.

I agree that what is happening to the USA is an undesirable extreme consequence of the free market system. There is much corruption, immorality, etc as you say. However, I do not feel comfortable labelling an entire country as filth - seems a bit strong. There are many individuals living in the USA who:
1) Do not agree with the policies of the prevailing political powers
2) Are not happy with the prevailing economic system but have little power to change it
As with the Roman empire, the USA will surely implode in its own arrogance (perhaps Australia will follow?). The trick is to learn from this and design a system in which there is disincentive for those in power to be corrupt and attempt to dominate those around them. But perhaps this is not possible, I don't know.

Garvinator
03-09-2005, 06:45 PM
One thing that has been shown up by Hurricane Katrina is how little things have really changed since September 11, 2001 in getting help to those who need it.

WhiteElephant
03-09-2005, 06:52 PM
One thing that has been shown up by Hurricane Katrina is how little things have really changed since September 11, 2001 in getting help to those who need it.

Wasn't there a massive effort to help survivors of 911 - huge spending on relief efforts, thousands of volunteers coming to help from all over the USA, celebrities and others doing fundraising, charities putting all their resources into helping.....

Garvinator
03-09-2005, 07:05 PM
Wasn't there a massive effort to help survivors of 911 - huge spending on relief efforts, thousands of volunteers coming to help from all over the USA, celebrities and others doing fundraising, charities putting all their resources into helping.....
i was talking more about all the reforms that were supposed to happen all over the place so when another massive disaster happened, all the agencies could work together better to get relief to those who need it most quickest.

In this case, Hurricane Katrina's impact was known for at least two days prior. If systems are already in place, then that is quite a bit of time to get things moving if the political will is there to get things done.

Experts in the field of hurricane disaster prediction had already modelled what the impact of a large hurricane would be on New Orleans, so most of this disaster was a predictable event.

firegoat7
03-09-2005, 09:10 PM
The tragedy in New Orleans was not man made and foolish of you to say so, it has however been made worse by poor planning and rescue management by the state and federal governments. Adding to the problem is the scum with guns who are shooting at the rescuers! :evil:



Actually the tragedy is man made.

Ask yourself these questions

1. How long does the average human last without water in summer?
2. If looting is an offense punishable by death, how do you get your water if the government does not provide it?
3. Why would the looting of food and water be considered an illegal act in a disaster zone?
4. How much of the food and waters still in shops will actually be sold?
5. If somebody shot at the police in your local street, would the police clear the area and leave the person alone?
6. How mant days will it take for people to be evacuated?
7. When a neo-liberal says that the market will provide, does the market provide for disater relief in time?
8. Would the response be so slow if the same disaster had occured in richer socio-economic areas?
9. Would you watch the tennis while a million of your compatriots were starving to death?
10. Why does the USA want no foreign diplomats to remain in the area?
11. Is the heating up of the water level a man made disaster?
12. Would a hurricane have occured without global warming?
13. Did george Bush lead the nation in prayer?
14. Are the poor in America lliving in 3rd world conditions?


cheers fg7

bergil
04-09-2005, 12:14 AM
Bergil mate, take it easy. You have called MS foolish, gg a simpleton and A/C a fool in the space of a few posts. Argue, the point, mate, namecalling is not required.
If the shoe fits.... I said it was foolish to say it was a man made disaster!

GG may not be a simpleton but his post was callow.

While A/C was callous to try to compare this with Iraq.

It is fine to normally humour these people but this is tragedy, they can't just say any old rubbish and expect not to be called on it.

bergil
04-09-2005, 12:39 AM
Actually the tragedy is man made.

Ask yourself these questions

1. How long does the average human last without water in summer?
2. If looting is an offense punishable by death, how do you get your water if the government does not provide it?
3. Why would the looting of food and water be considered an illegal act in a disaster zone?
4. How much of the food and waters still in shops will actually be sold?
5. If somebody shot at the police in your local street, would the police clear the area and leave the person alone?
6. How mant days will it take for people to be evacuated?
7. When a neo-liberal says that the market will provide, does the market provide for disater relief in time?
8. Would the response be so slow if the same disaster had occured in richer socio-economic areas?
9. Would you watch the tennis while a million of your compatriots were starving to death?
10. Why does the USA want no foreign diplomats to remain in the area?
11. Is the heating up of the water level a man made disaster?
12. Would a hurricane have occured without global warming?
13. Did george Bush lead the nation in prayer?
14. Are the poor in America lliving in 3rd world conditions?


cheers fg7
1. That is not the cause of the tragedy, it does however make it worse
2. They are not shooting anyone for taking food or water, just goods like TV's and such
3. It isn't they have already looked the other way when this happened
4. Who knows,
5. what are you taking about?
6. far to many, but that is a result of this natural disaster
7. doesn't look like it
8. Hard to know as nobody would have thought they would respond so poorly to this
9. No but what do you want them to do?
10. Irrelevant
11. Heating of the worlds oceans may be in part due to man but that does not make it a man made disaster.
12. Yes
13. Who cares, Irrelevant
14. aren't most poor anywhere in the world?

Not one of these points caused this disaster, however some of them did make it worse.

PHAT
04-09-2005, 07:34 AM
However, I do not feel comfortable labelling an entire country as filth - seems a bit strong. There are many individuals living in the USA who: ...


Agreed. In fact, most people, even yanks, are good decent people. It is important though, to remember that the sum of the parts is not the whole. Heart lungs skin and bones are each sublime, but Martin Bryant is not.

Libby
04-09-2005, 05:14 PM
It was my understanding they initially expected the hurricane to hit New Orleans full-on.

So they may not have anticipated the flooding but must have anticipated a major disaster.

I'm not sure why national disaster relief wasn't on standby in anticipation of the hurricane hit.

And on the poverty issue, I think I saw something scroll over the Good Morning America screen about 32 million Americans living in poverty?

antichrist
04-09-2005, 05:22 PM
From what I gather from reading this Board, every chess mother in Australia is also poverty stricken!

PHAT
04-09-2005, 06:16 PM
I'm not sure why national disaster relief wasn't on standby in anticipation of the hurricane hit.

Because it was going top hit a poor Southern black city. If a catastophe hit San Fransicko, the place would have been 100% evacuated in 48 hours.

Libby
04-09-2005, 06:38 PM
Because it was going top hit a poor Southern black city. If a catastophe hit San Fransicko, the place would have been 100% evacuated in 48 hours.

I'm assuming that's a deliberate spelling error for a change ;)

Obviously they needed to watch that "television event" I mercifully missed a week or two ago - 10.5 I think

Dozy
04-09-2005, 10:13 PM
And on the poverty issue, I think I saw something scroll over the Good Morning America screen about 32 million Americans living in poverty?

The official figures for 2004 were 37 million living in poverty, up 1.1 million from 2003. That's 12.7% of all Americans.
You can check out the US Census on http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty04/pov04hi.html

Bereaved
05-09-2005, 12:23 AM
From what I gather from reading this Board, every chess mother in Australia is also poverty stricken!

Hi A/C,

Do you feel better having attacked a whole social group of chess and their families now? If so, why stop there?

Surely you must have something unncharitable to say about most of us; don't keep us in suspense!!

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

NB I don't find the above quote to be of a very suitable nature and it does you no credit; as humour, unlikely to get you a gig at Edinburgh, M

antichrist
05-09-2005, 03:14 PM
Hi A/C,

Do you feel better having attacked a whole social group of chess and their families now? If so, why stop there?

Surely you must have something unncharitable to say about most of us; don't keep us in suspense!!

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

NB I don't find the above quote to be of a very suitable nature and it does you no credit; as humour, unlikely to get you a gig at Edinburgh, M

I have previously had my say about people of this Board maybe before your day. UCJ had crashed and had re-opened empty. So I populated it by naming a thread after all the BB regulars a giving them a serve. Ask around the ladies if you like, they will tell you. Careful you don't get your face slapped!

firegoat7
05-09-2005, 06:42 PM
5. what are you taking about?
10. Irrelevant
13. Who cares, Irrelevant

Not one of these points caused this disaster, however some of them did make it worse.

Thanks for the response Bergil,

5. Well according to news reports in at least one incident choppers refused to drop food because they were being shot at. Now I ask you if somebody shoots at you in a normal situation do you think the police helicopter would fly away? Of course they would not! So why allow it in a disaster zone?

10. This is hardly irrelevent. Clearly the USA prevented the evacuation of foreigners from New Orleans because it denied diplomats access to their citizens......obviously the major question is why? are they so paranoid of spies actually viewing their lack of organisation? or are they keen to prevent pictures of the breakdown of their society emerging on the internet? maybe there is a simple reason, but ultimately it is unusual move.

13. Well I agree with you on this poiint, but if Bush wants to play the religous card in an election then the least he could do would be to lead the country in prayer. But then again maybe it is just a media image, could George still be the cocaine totting party animal he used to be?

cheers Fg7

bergil
06-09-2005, 02:29 AM
5. Well according to news reports in at least one incident choppers refused to drop food because they were being shot at. Now I ask you if somebody shoots at you in a normal situation do you think the police helicopter would fly away? Of course they would not! So why allow it in a disaster zone?
Thats a pity but you can't help anyone if your dead, with so many people needing supplies wouldn't you fly off and give them to others who were not shooting at you?



10. This is hardly irrelevent. Clearly the USA prevented the evacuation of foreigners from New Orleans because it denied diplomats access to their citizens......obviously the major question is why? are they so paranoid of spies actually viewing their lack of organisation? or are they keen to prevent pictures of the breakdown of their society emerging on the internet? maybe there is a simple reason, but ultimately it is unusual move.
Don't know, I think it has more to do with not wanting to put more people in harms way. Also with all the trouble in New Orleans the last thing you'd want is a bunch foreigners giving special treatment to other foreigners, it might cause a riot.




13. Well I agree with you on this poiint, but if Bush wants to play the religous card in an election then the least he could do would be to lead the country in prayer. But then again maybe it is just a media image, could George still be the cocaine totting party animal he used to be?

:eek: :hmm:

antichrist
07-09-2005, 07:09 PM
How cruel and callice of Bush admin and capitalism.

They spent money earmarked for levee work to protect poor people was spent on illegally and immorally invading Iraq and for giving tax breaks to the rich - FG7 I will join you for that dawn appointment.

Spiny Norman
08-09-2005, 07:37 AM
How cruel and callice of Bush admin and capitalism.
They spent money earmarked for levee work to protect poor people was spent on illegally and immorally invading Iraq and for giving tax breaks to the rich - FG7 I will join you for that dawn appointment.
Have fun explaining the fact that the part of the levee which failed was one which had very recently been upgraded.

Suggest you take a closer look at the role of the mayor of New Orleans in this fiasco. If anyone is a disgrace, he is, for not evacuating the city when experts were telling him to do so.

Libby
08-09-2005, 08:39 AM
Especially when you see bits on the news this morning about finding 30 bodies in a nursing home.

We had Andrew Bolt etc rabbiting on about why people failed to evacuate themselves when "everyone" knew the hurricane was coming.

There seems to have been no program to evacuate the helpless - in hospital, in nursing homes - in advance of the hurricane. And therefore, even less prospect of anyone attempting to assist the poor who were without the means (cars or cash) to evacuate themselves, let alone find somewhere for them to go.

It's not a pretty picture given they actually expected the Hurricane to hit New Orleans. So whilst the flood may have been unexpected, devastation was not.

antichrist
08-09-2005, 09:10 AM
Have fun explaining the fact that the part of the levee which failed was one which had very recently been upgraded.

Suggest you take a closer look at the role of the mayor of New Orleans in this fiasco. If anyone is a disgrace, he is, for not evacuating the city when experts were telling him to do so.

Now listen Frosty, I have been taking it easy on you lately because had been concentrating on stirring other people but your god is to blame. He has parted waters, made people speak babbel, turned wives into pillars of salt, caused floods and now this hurricane was just another leaf in his page of having a bit fun - just like I like to do occasionally, we would get on well together that god of yours and myself.

That levee may have been recently upgraded but I was referring to US TV reports that the money was diverted. Surely the national government is responsible for the defence forces which has the heavy equipment to just drive in with their humvees and amphidious(?) landing craft. They could have just driven straight up to those large centres with truckloads of medicine and food. I seen it said on TV about 4am when woke up early this morning.

Part of the problem was lack of public transport. Did you know that when the Yanks took over in the Philippines over a hundred of years ago they deliberately tore up the railway tracks that the Poms had installed, hundreds of miles of it. They obviously don't care for the poor. And the poor in the US, being in a hopeless situation, all become Bible Christians (or crims) because their lives are so hopeless in this world they give up - they can only hope in another world. Desparate people do desparate thngs.

Spiny Norman
08-09-2005, 10:40 AM
There seems to have been no program to evacuate the helpless - in hospital, in nursing homes - in advance of the hurricane.
You're right Libby, it seems to have been a shambles. Did anyone see the picture of the school bus parking lot? Dozens of them, all lined up in rows. They could have been used to ferry thousands of people out before the trouble hit. That isn't a federal issue, its a local government issue predominantly.

Has anyone stopped to consider this: if a disaster hit Sydney, or Melbourne, would we be any better prepared than the Yanks? I think not. Whose fault would that be then? Local? State? Federal? Won't be my fault ... I'm getting in early (i.e. now!) and pointing out that we're not prepared ... pollies and public servants, take notice! ;)

Libby
08-09-2005, 11:16 AM
amphidious(?)

those military vehicles - both insidious & amphibious ...

WhiteElephant
08-09-2005, 11:41 AM
Now listen Frosty, I have been taking it easy on you lately because had been concentrating on stirring other people but your god is to blame. He has parted waters, made people speak babbel, turned wives into pillars of salt, caused floods and now this hurricane was just another leaf in his page of having a bit fun

Have to agree with A/C on this one, Frosty. You are blaming the mayor of New Orleans, but isn't he only human, which is the way God created us? Surely on this one God must take some responsibility.

Garvinator
08-09-2005, 11:47 AM
while I have had a good laugh at the last few posts :D, can we keep the god talk out of this thread. It might be a good discussion if that topic is avoided.

WhiteElephant
08-09-2005, 11:53 AM
while I have had a good laugh at the last few posts :D, can we keep the god talk out of this thread. It might be a good discussion if that topic is avoided.

1. I think discussions of God are particularly relevant in a thread such as this because tragedy causes us to contemplate our existence and mortality.

2. Garvin, I suggest you have a good think about some of the negative comments you have been spouting about Narelle and her IM title before you go around telling people what they should be posting.

Trent Parker
08-09-2005, 12:24 PM
God works in mysterious ways


while I have had a good laugh at the last few posts :D, can we keep the god talk out of this thread.
Yes please keep god talk out of this thread.

WhiteElephant
08-09-2005, 12:26 PM
God works in mysterious ways


Yes please keep god talk out of this thread.

Ok, I've been outvoted :)

Where's A/C when you need him?

Rincewind
08-09-2005, 01:11 PM
Where's A/C when you need him?

No idea. I've never been in that situation.

antichrist
08-09-2005, 01:41 PM
while I have had a good laugh at the last few posts :D, can we keep the god talk out of this thread. It might be a good discussion if that topic is avoided.

Well religous folk reakon there is good and evil in the world all set up by God. In the Bible it talks of plagues of locusts etc for disobeying his commandments. The Great Flood is a perfect example of sin leading to retribution.

So what do we have in Louisana: the home of evil Devil's Music; of poor and black uncontrolled breeding out of wedlock, illicit drugs, sly grog, dirty dancing - you name it - there is not a chrystal cathedral in sight. No wonder God chose Louisana to get revenge. They were asking for it - just like me on this BB sometime.

Alternatively, keep your God out of it and tell the pastor where to shove it because God is no longer relevant to the human condition.

Believers are like the National/Country Party - privatise the profits and socialise the losses. That is thank God for what is good but don't blame him for when things go wrong.

Remember those Orthodox Jews being herded onto those trains for the gas chambers - they yelled out: THERE IS NO GOD, THERE IS NO GOD, THERE IS NO GOD.

God bless you.

Dozy
08-09-2005, 06:30 PM
The looting wasn't only confined to survivors, at least some of the police were involved as well. Check out this video http://www.killsometime.com/video/video.asp?video=Hurricane-Katrina-Looting. It's disturbing . . . but it's sad, too.

arosar
09-09-2005, 01:14 PM
This disaster has really brought out some oddities. For the first time since 1846, Mexican military has entered US soil. And now there are reports of private commandos, mercenaries, patrolling Louisiana. These guys are carrying machineguns. It's kinda like being back in the Cowboy days.

All we need now is for Bush to accept Castro's help and the picture is complete.

AR

Spiny Norman
09-09-2005, 03:01 PM
Reported in today's paper: When the Red Cross tried to deliver food aid to New Orleans in the first few days after the disaster they were prevented from doing so by local officials.

The local administration there apparently only ordered the evacuation of the city 24 hours hours before the hurricane hit after George Bush personally phoned the mayor and made a personal plea for evacuation.

Another nail (or two, or three) in the coffin for Bush-is-the-devil-incarnate conspiracy theorists.

Don't let your hatred get in the way of the facts ...

antichrist
09-09-2005, 03:22 PM
You still have to get God out of the equasion.

Your previous post does have truth but there is another ingredient. That is the whole capitalism, low tax mentallity of Bush via Maggie Thatcher.

A lot of state and local govt. initiatves need federal funding which we know in this case went to Iraq war and to tax cuts for the rich.

The Chinese "communists" immediately send in the army - by the millions. I was in the Philippines after their volcano went off 13 years ago - they did almost zero and the wet season was coming - capitalism again.

bergil
09-09-2005, 04:45 PM
The local administration there apparently only ordered the evacuation of the city 24 hours hours before the hurricane hit after George Bush personally phoned the mayor and made a personal plea for evacuation.

Another nail (or two, or three) in the coffin for Bush-is-the-devil-incarnate conspiracy theorists.

Don't let your hatred get in the way of the facts ...
Pure spin, If he cared so much why was he oblivious to the plight of the city after the levees broke?

Bush isn't the devil, nor is competent to be President. He has divided the country (U.S.A) and the world and on two occasions, this one and 9/11 where he sat in front of school children doing nothing he failed to act!

Don't let uncaring ideology get in the way of your humanity.

antichrist
09-09-2005, 05:04 PM
What shocks me is the US mentality in general. Last night they showed on TV bodies on sides of major roads being there for 5 days - the living is their priority is their response. The Muslims with their edict to bury deceased within 24 hours is more civilised.

I spoke to a Yank friend about this, and his attitude was why pick up the body when someone else will come along and do it.

Aussie would not be like this.

Also we would give the lame preference - officially and privately, they would be our first response. Different mentality - as simple as that.

Dozy
10-09-2005, 08:09 AM
I found this remarkable article from the National Georgraphic published in October 2004 in which Katrina's devastation was accurately predicted by retired coastal engineer, Joe Suhayda, of Louisiana State University.

I quote in part, "When did this calamity happen? It hasn't -- yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on NYC."

Read it here: http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

antichrist
10-09-2005, 08:13 AM
Exactly the same could be said about global warning. The environmental movement was warning about it 30 years ago that I am aware of.

YET WE STILL DRIVE CARS EVERYWHERE ON UNNECESSARY TRIPS

THINK ABOUT IT

Spiny Norman
10-09-2005, 11:08 AM
YET WE STILL DRIVE CARS EVERYWHERE ON UNNECESSARY TRIPS.
On the radio this morning, researchers in Tasmania are doing leading-edge work on hydrogen-powered vehicles ... using wind power to produce enough electric current to separate H20 into H (for fuel) and O (harmless emission). Report said they're going to trial it on some islands for electricity generation.

arosar
10-09-2005, 11:18 AM
That wasn't Newsradio, was it?

I heard the same.

AR

Dozy
10-09-2005, 02:31 PM
On the radio this morning, researchers in Tasmania are doing leading-edge work on hydrogen-powered vehicles ... using wind power to produce enough electric current to separate H20 into H (for fuel) and O (harmless emission). Report said they're going to trial it on some islands for electricity generation.
Daizy (that's Mrs Dozy to you) reckons that'll never work in Sydney. She said it's great in theory being able to run your hose into the petrol tank to top up, but if the current water restrictions continue we'll only be able to do it on Sundays and Wednesdays!

Spiny Norman
10-09-2005, 02:47 PM
Daizy (that's Mrs Dozy to you) reckons that'll never work in Sydney. She said it's great in theory being able to run your hose into the petrol tank to top up, but if the current water restrictions continue we'll only be able to do it on Sundays and Wednesdays!
Yeah, I reckon the plan is first to develop the hydrogen-powered car that runs on water, then (in order to overcome the water shortages) develop the wind-powered de-salination plant using sea water to produce the pure water, then get all the politicans together in one place so that their hot air drives the turbines ... then we'll all get together in our pollie-powered, de-salinated, water burning, hydrogen-injected cars ... and run over the mob of politicans. Thus, the cycle is complete, reducing the need for cars. A self-sustaining proposal.

antichrist
11-09-2005, 09:26 AM
But In The Meantime Everyone Will Keep Their Heads In The Sand And Drive Cars Unnecessary And Not Changing Lifestyles

frogmogdog
11-09-2005, 10:25 AM
here's a good article on new orleans:

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2005-09/03parenti.cfm

September 03, 2005

How the Free Market Killed New Orleans

By Michael Parenti

The free market played a crucial role in the destruction of New Orleans and the death of thousands of its residents. Forewarned that a momentous (force 5) hurricane was going to hit that city and surrounding areas, what did officials do? They played the free market.

They announced that everyone should evacuate. Everyone was expected to devise their own way out of the disaster area by private means, just like people do when disaster hits free-market Third World countries.

It is a beautiful thing this free market in which every individual pursues his or her own personal interests and thereby effects an optimal outcome for the entire society. Thus does the invisible hand work its wonders in mysterious ways.

In New Orleans there would be none of the collectivistic regimented evacuation as occurred in Cuba. When an especially powerful hurricane hit that island in 2004, the Castro government, abetted by neighborhood citizen committees and local Communist party cadres, evacuated 1.5 million people, more than 10 percent of the country’s population. The Cubans lost 20,000 homes to that hurricane---but not a single life was lost, a heartening feat that went largely unmentioned in the U.S. press.

On Day One of the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina, it was already clear that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Americans had perished in New Orleans. Many people had “refused” to evacuate, media reporters explained, because they were just plain “stubborn.”

It was not until Day Three that the relatively affluent telecasters began to realize that tens of thousands of people had failed to flee because they had nowhere to go and no means of getting there. With hardly any cash at hand or no motor vehicle to call their own, they had to sit tight and hope for the best. In the end, the free market did not work so well for them.

Many of these people were low-income African Americans, along with fewer numbers of poor whites. It should be remembered that most of them had jobs before Katrina’s lethal visit. That’s what most poor people do in this country: they work, usually quite hard at dismally paying jobs, sometimes more than one job at a time. They are poor not because they’re lazy but because they have a hard time surviving on poverty wages while burdened by high prices, high rents, and regressive taxes.

The free market played a role in other ways. Bush’s agenda is to cut government services to the bone and make people rely on the private sector for the things they might need. So he sliced $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. Plans to fortify New Orleans levees and upgrade the system of pumping out water had to be shelved.

Army Corps of Engineer personnel had started work to build new levees several years ago but many of them were taken off such projects and sent to Iraq. In addition, the president cut $30 million in flood control appropriations.

Bush took to the airways (“Good Morning America” 1 September 2005) and said “I don’t think anyone anticipated that breach of the levees.” Just another untruth tumbling from his lips. The catastrophic flooding of New Orleans had been foreseen by storm experts, engineers, Louisiana journalists and state officials, and even some federal agencies. All sorts of people had been predicting disaster for years, pointing to the danger of rising water levels and the need to strengthen the levees and pumps, and fortify the entire coastland.

In their campaign to starve out the public sector, the Bushite reactionaries also allowed developers to drain vast areas of wetlands. Again, that old invisible hand of the free market would take care of things. The developers, pursuing their own private profit, would devise outcomes that would benefit us all.

But wetlands served as a natural absorbent and barrier between New Orleans and the storms riding in from across the sea. And for some years now, the wetlands have been disappearing at a frightening pace on the Gulf‘ coast. All this was of no concern to the reactionaries in the White House.

As for the rescue operation, the free-marketeers like to say that relief to the more unfortunate among us should be left to private charity. It was a favorite preachment of President Ronald Reagan that “private charity can do the job.” And for the first few days that indeed seemed to be the policy with the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina.

The federal government was nowhere in sight but the Red Cross went into action. Its message: “Don’t send food or blankets; send money.” The Salvation Army also began to muster up its aging troops. Meanwhile Pat Robertson and the Christian Broadcasting Network---taking a moment off from God’s work of pushing John Roberts nomination to the Supreme Court---called for donations and announced “Operation Blessing” which consisted of a highly-publicized but totally inadequate shipment of canned goods and bibles.

By Day Three even the myopic media began to realize the immense failure of the rescue operation. People were dying because relief had not arrived. The authorities seemed more concerned with the looting than with rescuing people, more concerned with “crowd control,” which consisted of corralling thousands into barren open lots devoid of decent shelter, and not allowing them to leave.

Questions arose that the free market seem incapable of answering: Who was in charge of the rescue operation? Why so few helicopters and just a scattering of Coast Guard rescuers? Why did it take helicopters five hours to lift six people out of one hospital? When would the rescue operation gather some steam? Where were the feds? The state troopers? The National Guard? Where were the buses and trucks? the shelters and portable toilets? The medical supplies and water?

And where was Homeland Security? What has Homeland Security done with the $33.8 billions allocated to it in fiscal 2005? By Day Four, almost all the major media were reporting that the federal government’s response was “a national disgrace.” Meanwhile George Bush finally made his photo-op appearance in a few well-chosen disaster areas---before romping off to play golf.

In a moment of delicious (and perhaps mischievous) irony, offers of foreign aid were tendered by France, Germany, Venezuela, and several other nations. Russia offered to send two plane loads of food and other materials for the victims. Cuba--which has a record of sending doctors to dozens of countries, including a thankful Sri Lanka during the tsunami disaster---offered 1,100 doctors. Predictably, all these proposals were sharply declined by the U.S. State Department.

America the Beautiful and Powerful, America the Supreme Rescuer and World Leader, America the Purveyor of Global Prosperity could not accept foreign aid from others. That would be a most deflating and insulting role reversal. Were the French looking for another punch in the nose? Were the Cubans up to their old subversive tricks?

Besides, to have accepted foreign aid would have been to admit the truth---that the Bushite reactionaries had neither the desire nor the decency to provide for ordinary citizens, not even those in the most extreme straits.

I recently heard someone complain, “Bush is trying to save the world when he can’t even take care of his own people here at home.” Not quite true. He certainly does take very good care of his own people, that tiny fraction of one percent, the superrich. It’s just that the working people of New Orleans do not number among them.

------- Michael Parenti's recent books include Superpatriotism (City Lights) and The Assassination of Julius Caesar (New Press), both available in paperback. His forthcoming The Culture Struggle (Seven Stories Press) will be published in the fall. For more information visit: www.michaelparenti.org.

antichrist
11-09-2005, 11:37 AM
And those car trips are probably causing global warming and rising ocean levels, so when hurricanes hit the coastline the flooding is higher and more devastating.

Keep driving - devouring our children's future.

PHAT
11-09-2005, 07:00 PM
As I read this opinion piece it reminded me of the truth that, empires come and empires go.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/editorial/0509/10/D08-309629.htm

and this

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/No_Child_Left_Behind.pdf

antichrist
11-09-2005, 07:29 PM
What I was surprised to read it that Washington has double the rate of infant mortality than Beijing.

Spiny Norman
12-09-2005, 07:12 AM
As I read this opinion piece it reminded me of the truth that, empires come and empires go.
When a society fails to confront those forces (within, or without) that seek to destroy it, that society is doomed.

Are we perhaps seeing the beginning of the end for Team USA?

I agree that unrestrained capitalism is just as destructive a force as any other you'd care to name.

four four two
12-09-2005, 10:58 AM
Where do you read this rubbish ac? While it is true to say that the usa has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world,no american city as small as washington would have an infant mortality rate as large as a huge city in a thirld world country. Washington DC use to have the highest per capita murder rate in the USA,but adults/teens shooting people hardly classifies as infant mortality! If Washington had a higher infant mortality rate than Beijing ,than naturally Washington DC would have a lower life expectancy.Even with the murder rate Washinton DC still has a higher life expectancy. And btw Frosty, there is no TEAM in the USA, just DOG EAT DOG! The hurricane has exposed once and for all that if you are poor and vulnerable in the USA then your government can and will leave you too die. Sad but true.

antichrist
12-09-2005, 01:44 PM
Where do you read this rubbish ac? While it is true to say that the usa has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world,no american city as small as washington would have an infant mortality rate as large as a huge city in a thirld world country. Washington DC use to have the highest per capita murder rate in the USA,but adults/teens shooting people hardly classifies as infant mortality! If Washington had a higher infant mortality rate than Beijing ,than naturally Washington DC would have a lower life expectancy.Even with the murder rate Washinton DC still has a higher life expectancy. And btw Frosty, there is no TEAM in the USA, just DOG EAT DOG! The hurricane has exposed once and for all that if you are poor and vulnerable in the USA then your government can and will leave you too die. Sad but true.

Well I read in it SMH a few days ago, but the rubbish went this morning so maybe its gone as well.

bergil
08-10-2005, 03:01 PM
This is a transcript of an ACTUAL radio conversation (between a US ship
and Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October,
1995).
Communication released by US Chief of Naval Operations, 10-10-95.

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees North to avoid
collision.

Canadians: Recommend YOU divert YOUR course 15 degrees to South...

Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again,
divert YOUR course.

Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.

Americans: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS LINCOLN, THE SECOND
LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE
ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS, AND NUMEROUS
SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH,
THAT'S ONE FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR
COUNTER-MEASURES WILL BE TAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.

Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

four four two
08-10-2005, 04:32 PM
Its an oldie but a goodie. ;)

ursogr8
08-10-2005, 04:41 PM
This is a transcript of an ACTUAL radio conversation (between a US ship
and Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October,
1995).
Communication released by US Chief of Naval Operations, 10-10-95.

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees North to avoid
collision.

Canadians: Recommend YOU divert YOUR course 15 degrees to South...

Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again,
divert YOUR course.

Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.

Americans: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS LINCOLN, THE SECOND
LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE
ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS, AND NUMEROUS
SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH,
THAT'S ONE FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR
COUNTER-MEASURES WILL BE TAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.

Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.


If it helps, I have this script on a 1/2 Meg file of a video depicting the dilemma. It was given out a couple of years back on a managerial training course about "Test your assumptions".









It is one of about 30 videos making various points about decision-making.

bergil
08-10-2005, 04:46 PM
Thanks that would be good.

bergil
09-10-2005, 10:12 AM
Not so sure about this but what do others think? :hmm:

Privatization of U.S. relief efforts is letting government off the hook

By Ted Rall

HURRICANE KATRINA has prompted Americans to donate more than $700 million to charity, reports the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So many suckers, so little foresight.

Government has been shirking its basic responsibilities since the '80s, when Ronald Reagan sold us his belief that the sick, poor and unlucky should no longer count on "big government" to help them, but should rather live and die at the whim of contributors to private charities. The Katrina disaster, whose total damage estimate has risen from $100 to $125 billion, marks the culmination of Reagan's privatization of despair.

The American Red Cross leads the post-Katrina sweepstakes, quickly closing in on the $534 million it took in just after 9/11. But Red Cross spokeswoman Sheila Graham told the Associated Press it needs another half billion "to provide emergency relief over the coming weeks for thousands of evacuees who have scattered among 675 of its shelters in 23 states."

Shelley Borysiewicz of Catholic Charities USA, which has raised $7 million thus far, also continues to solicit donations: "We don't want people to lose sight of the fact that this is going to take years of recovery, and we're going to be there to help the people who fall through the cracks."

What "cracks"? Why should New Orleans' dispossessed have to live in private shelters? We live in the United States, not Mali. There's only one reason flood victims aren't getting help from the government: because the government refuses to help them. The Red Cross and its cohorts are letting lazy, incompetent and corrupt politicians off the hook, and so are their donors.

It's ridiculous, but people evidently need to be reminded that the United States is not only the world's wealthiest nation but the wealthiest society that has existed anywhere, ever. The U.S. government can easily pick up the tab for people inconvenienced by bad weather—if helping them is a priority. That goes double for Katrina, a disaster caused by the government's conscious decision to eliminate the $50 million pittance needed to improve New Orleans' levees.

For our leaders the optional war against Iraq is such a priority, which the Congressional Budget Office expects to cost $600 billion by 2010. That's four or five Katrinas right there. (That's also where the levee money went.) Because rich people are always a political priority, their taxes have been slashed by $4 trillion over a decade—the equivalent of 32 Katrinas. So worried are our public servants about the tax burden placed on the rich that they're looking out for rich dead people. This is why they've gutted the estate tax that, at a cost of $75 billion annually, will run half a Katrina a year. Trickle-down economists beginning with Milton Friedman shout "starve the beast," but while the social programs are put on a diet, the mean and powerful pig out more than ever.

Disaster relief is too important to be left to private fundraisers, with their self-sustaining fundraising expenses, administrative overhead (9 percent for the Red Cross) and their parochial, often religious, agendas. It's also way too expensive. In the final analysis, after the poor neighborhoods of New Orleans have been razed under eminent domain, major charities will be lucky if they've managed to raise 1 percent of the total cost of Katrina. Congress, recognizing the reality that only the federal government possesses the means to deal with the calamity, has already allocated $58 billion—over 70 times the amount raised by charities—to flood relief along the Gulf of Mexico. As Bush says, that's only a "down payment."

Cutting a check to the Red Cross isn't just a vote for irresponsible government. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what you'll end up paying for Katrina in increased taxes.

Granted, in terms of popularity of likelihood of success, trying to make a case against giving money to charities compares to lobbying against puppies. The impulse to donate, after all, is rooted in our best human traits. As we watched New Orleanians die of thirst, disease and anarchic violence in the face of Bush administration disinterest and local government incompetence, millions of us did the only thing we thought we could to do to help: cut a check or click a PayPal button. Tragically, that generosity feeds into the mind-set of the sinister ideologues who argue that government shouldn't help people—the very mind-set that caused the levee break that turned Katrina into a holocaust and led to official unresponsiveness. And it is already setting the stage for the next avoidable disaster.

It's time to "starve the beast": private charities used by the government to justify the abdication of its duties to its citizens.

antichrist
20-10-2005, 09:30 PM
On Australian Story tonight tells of Australian kindness and acceptance of US black soldiers in contrast to brutal racism of white US military police who even shot the blacks. The Aussies even backed the negroes in fights against white Yanks. God bless the Aussies.

amswartz43
04-11-2005, 08:35 AM
why the are you so antiusa..i guess i'm hated. i just like the way you guys judge a whole country based on a few people in the media...seems kinda lame to hate something or someone..its a waste of time. and yes you can go on and on about hateful people in the US and racism and greed and whatever else you want..but that just means people in your countries are hating us..whats the difference between hating people in other countries and hating them in your own??

Rincewind
04-11-2005, 09:17 AM
why the are you so antiusa..i guess i'm hated. i just like the way you guys judge a whole country based on a few people in the media...seems kinda lame to hate something or someone..its a waste of time. and yes you can go on and on about hateful people in the US and racism and greed and whatever else you want..but that just means people in your countries are hating us..whats the difference between hating people in other countries and hating them in your own??

I assure you most of the people here don't hate you. There are a few absolutists here who might, but any who do are not worthy of concern. Don't make the same mistake of judging all chesschat users based on the post of the vocal minority.

I am certainly no fan of Bushism but it doesn't affect the way I feel about Americans generally.

Watto
04-11-2005, 09:46 AM
An American said to me last year, 'that PLATE your eating off is brighter than George Bush!'.

They're a diverse bunch.

antichrist
04-11-2005, 10:31 AM
why the are you so antiusa..i guess i'm hated. i just like the way you guys judge a whole country based on a few people in the media...seems kinda lame to hate something or someone..its a waste of time. and yes you can go on and on about hateful people in the US and racism and greed and whatever else you want..but that just means people in your countries are hating us..whats the difference between hating people in other countries and hating them in your own??

USA as such a strong influence in the world has extra responsibility e.g., on reduction of greenhouse gases, disarmament of nuke and chemical weapons etc. but it seems like she is prepared to take the rest of the world down with it. She has triumphantly and very selfishly upped the ante on both issues for years.

I spoke to an American friend during the period of those corpse rotting on the highways for days after the hurricane, his response why do it when someone else will eventually. They did not care about communal dieseases spreading etc. how sick for an educated and rich country.

I have lived in a number of third world countries sometimes during natural disasters and never witnessed any caliceness and apathy approaching this.

Nothing against you as I don't even know you. You are even welcome to stay for a holiday.

PHAT
05-11-2005, 06:39 AM
why the are you so antiusa..i guess i'm hated. i just like the way you guys judge a whole country based on a few people in the media...seems kinda lame to hate something or someone..its a waste of time. and yes you can go on and on about hateful people in the US and racism and greed and whatever else you want..but that just means people in your countries are hating us..whats the difference between hating people in other countries and hating them in your own??

I started this thead. It is directed at the USA as a hegemonic evil power. It is not an attack on the individual people of the USA. If fact, I must say the yanks I have known both here and in the USA have in general been generous, kind and well mannered. The nation that is the USA is an entirely different beast.