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View Full Version : Forced Advantage for black in the opening



Frank Walker
28-08-2005, 05:43 PM
I have recently tried a program that my son bought called Fritz 8 and I have figure out what the +=, (0.45), (-0.19) etc. mean but I have found that in a starting position White is always winning and it is never 0.00 is there any forced way of making it 0.00 or -0.??

boardumb
28-08-2005, 07:53 PM
Not really, the score given has something to do with the engine heuristics. If you adjust the starting score then everything else will just be skewed somewhat to one side.

The point (IMO) is to acknowledge that +0.20 or whatever is not going to win you a game, and that the decimal points should be taken with a grain of salt.

Just use Fritz to look out for changes of +/-1 or more.

qpawn
23-01-2006, 08:50 PM
I also have fritz 8. Could someone explain what all that 0.3 etc stuff after each move means?

jase
23-01-2006, 09:32 PM
+1.0 is the equivalent of White being a pawn up in the engine's assessment of the game.

If the number is in positive terms, eg +0.5, White is up; if it read -0.5 then Fritz's assessment is that Black is about half a pawn down.

+3.0 would be the equivalent of White being a piece ahead etc etc

Phil Bourke
23-01-2006, 09:45 PM
I also have fritz 8. Could someone explain what all that 0.3 etc stuff after each move means?
It is the computer's evaluation of the position, if it favours White, it will be a positive number, and of course a negative number means it favours Black.
This can be a little misleading though. Put the computer on infinite analysis, then play the moves it recommends, or picks, as the best. Just by playing these moves, the evaluation can fluctuate wildly, which to me means, the original evaluation must be a little flawed.
I sometimes have found that if you let Fritz analyse a position, and a line which it gives as favourable turns out bad, then go back to the original position and try one of the lines it rates as being even (=), these lines often turn out as the best play in the position.

qpawn
24-01-2006, 08:49 PM
Yeah. I have found that the numbers for evaluation can fluctuate a bit.

I also find that in quite positional struggles the computer will not always choose the most thoughtful plan.

e.g
1. d4 nf6
2. c4 e6
3. nc3 bb4
4. e3 c5
5. bd3 d5
6. nge2 nc6
7. a3 bc3+
8. bc3 cd4
9. cd4 dc4
10. Bc4 0-0
11. 0-0 b6
12. Bb2 Bb7

Now, instead of the moves fritz suggests such as moving a rook to c1, what about 13. f3 preparing e4? The fork is easily dealt with by Qd3. The computers didn't even consider 13. f3. I followed its analysis from f3 and white opens up black's kingside and gets a great centre at e4 and d4.

continuing...

13. f3 nd5
14. qd3 na5
15. ba2 qg5
16. bc1 nc7
17. e4 qf6
18. e5 qh4
19. g3 qe7
20. bb1 f5
21. ef6 gf6
22. bh6 [this one fritz did not consider but it can't be bad]
22...rfd8
23. ba2 kh8 [to be going this defensive fritz/black can't be doing that well]
24. rfd1

From memory I think that the computer puts black at about half a pawn advantage here. I have to disagree. White has 2 bishops, access to the c file and has opened up black's king. It is a bit hair raising with the pawn weaknesses both sides have. But white surely controls the centre with those pawns.

If this eg is typical I can see why people say that computers are useless for correspondence chess at any high level.

fRITZ is a great program but it can't think; leave that to humans :)

Davidflude
25-01-2006, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=qpawn]Yeah. I have found that the numbers for evaluation can fluctuate a bit.

The computer prints the evaluation it has reached at the depth it has anaysed
often by addeing up material and then using positional weighting factors. Try setting up a dead drawn bishops of opposite colour ending wher one player is two pawns ahed and look at the evaluation.

Another point is that often the evaluation will alter drastically as the machine analyses deeper.

Last the computer programs can come up with big imptrovements over book.
I am not going to quote the variation as I am sure I will get to play it but I was setting up a position to analyse. For sixty years the line given has been supposed to be good for black. My door bell rang one move before the critical position. When I had driven away the missionaries at my door I discovered that the computer was insisting on playing a move that blundered a piece. After many hours of analysis I am convinced that If black grabs the material the wheels come off but if he declines it he is still in trouble.

Phil Bourke
25-01-2006, 01:05 PM
[QUOTE=qpawn]Last the computer programs can come up with big imptrovements over book.
I am not going to quote the variation as I am sure I will get to play it but I was setting up a position to analyse. For sixty years the line given has been supposed to be good for black. My door bell rang one move before the critical position. When I had driven away the missionaries at my door I discovered that the computer was insisting on playing a move that blundered a piece. After many hours of analysis I am convinced that If black grabs the material the wheels come off but if he declines it he is still in trouble.

Spoilsport :D
The rest I agree with, sometimes you have to play through numerous lines of the computer's analysis, plus giving the silicon monster some time is always a big bonus, because as you said, it gets deeper into the position. I often like to put a position into Fritz, then use the Deep Position Analysis function, and let it run overnight. That will often come up with moves that aren't in the book.