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ChessGuru
11-08-2005, 08:17 PM
A few weeks ago someone was posting about the ACF getting something going in the NT. I'm interested to know if people really believe that?

What should the ACF do about NT (if anything)?

Why should they do it?

Who should do it?

How much should it cost?

Mischa
11-08-2005, 08:35 PM
It would be good tho

PHAT
11-08-2005, 09:10 PM
The ACF shafted the NT at its last AGM. I spoke against such a move, but hey, what would I know about fairness and the long-term interests of Australian chess.

Bill Gletsos
12-08-2005, 12:19 AM
The ACF shafted the NT at its last AGM. I spoke against such a move, but hey, what would I know about fairness and the long-term interests of Australian chess.You got that right. What would you know when it came to the CANT.

The Chess Association of the Northern Territory was defunct. It had not participated in any ACF business in well over 18mths. As such there was no point having it remain as an affiliated Association and was removed by a vote of 19-2.

Garvinator
12-08-2005, 02:06 AM
You got that right. What would you know when it came to the CANT.

The Chess Association of the Northern Territory was defunct. It had not participated in any ACF business in well over 18mths. As such there was no point having it remain as an affiliated Association and was removed by a vote of 19-2.
Adding a little more to this, sorry Bill ;) , if someone was to restart CANT and get chess going again in NT, then I am sure they would be accepted back to the acf and could re apply for affiliation, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

Since their disaffiliation, I have not been hearing any cries from NT about their disaffiliation, which would give rise to the fact that there is no formal chess scene in NT :( .

For anyone considering starting formalised chess in NT, i would first consider a name change away from CANT. Not the best name for an association getting off the ground ;)

Brian_Jones
12-08-2005, 08:28 AM
Since their disaffiliation, I have not been hearing any cries from NT about their disaffiliation, which would give rise to the fact that there is no formal chess scene in NT

I know lots of chess enthusiasts in NT. But why would they need a "formal" chess scene unless they wanted to start a club in Darwin, Alice Springs or some other town?

Why would these chess enthusiasts need ACF formality when they play their mates or on the internet or through CCLA?

ChessGuru
12-08-2005, 08:59 AM
All of this is focusing on the CANT. I was talking about getting more people playing chess (or organised chess) in the Territory.

Is the ACF's only role to promote chess to ITS MEMBERS (ie. affiliated state assns). Or do they have a higher purpose?

Even if the CANT is dead and has no likelyhood of re-starting should the ACF still try and get more people playing chess in NT? Should they be making even more of an effort to promote chess in an area that isn't represented by a 'formal' association?

Perhaps once there are lots of ppl playing some organised chess (even without a CANT) then they will start wanting some of the ACF formality? But i guess that comes back to the ACF's goal - is it to Promote Chess in Australia. Or is it to Promote Chess to its Members (in order to derive funds from said members)?

What if the CV disbanded. Should the ACF then ban any GP tournaments, ratings, players going overseas etc from Victoria?

pax
12-08-2005, 04:50 PM
There is a limit to what the ACF can do.

If there are one or two people in the NT that are willing and able to make a concerted effort to organise tournaments/clubs/events, then the ACF can probably support them with equipment and/or startup money.

Without local organisers, the ACF cannot practically help. Paying someone to go the NT to organise things for 6 months or a year would a) cost a fortune and b) probably result in activities drying up at the end of that time.



All of this is focusing on the CANT. I was talking about getting more people playing chess (or organised chess) in the Territory.

Is the ACF's only role to promote chess to ITS MEMBERS (ie. affiliated state assns). Or do they have a higher purpose?

Even if the CANT is dead and has no likelyhood of re-starting should the ACF still try and get more people playing chess in NT? Should they be making even more of an effort to promote chess in an area that isn't represented by a 'formal' association?

Perhaps once there are lots of ppl playing some organised chess (even without a CANT) then they will start wanting some of the ACF formality? But i guess that comes back to the ACF's goal - is it to Promote Chess in Australia. Or is it to Promote Chess to its Members (in order to derive funds from said members)?

What if the CV disbanded. Should the ACF then ban any GP tournaments, ratings, players going overseas etc from Victoria?

eclectic
12-08-2005, 05:28 PM
is CG's agenda here to help re-establish an association whose membership numbers were minimal and to give it as much power (possibly?) as the NSWCA at ACF conferences etc?

what next, a relocation of his business ventures to darwin and alice springs with a view to eventually finding his way onto the ACF as the NT delegate?

but then i remember ... it's "membership" "numbers" were probably on a par with those of chess victoria anyway .... :whistle:

eclectic

auriga
12-08-2005, 10:41 PM
i personally thought disbanding the NT chess assocation was a step backward.
(also it should have been called simply the NTCA right?!)

chess activity, like everything, is cyclical. people come into and out of chess in 1/5/10 year periods. nt has a history of players in darwin and alice. a few years back (was it 5 or 10 years back) alice springs had a proper chess tournament there.
however, i would agree at the moment there doesn't seem to be heaps of activity in those centres. however, i know darwin is a fairly vibrant place (and is recognised as one of the fastest growing capitals in australia eg. property and office space there is undervalued due to the discount for the risk of cyclones, etc. so, in 10 years time who knows it could double in population (from 80k to 160k or whatever it is, i'm not too sure).

the association was the platform (foundation) for the players/organisers.
if no one was able to represent then someone from north qld or north wa would have been ok to represent (i guess there could have been a legal problem here but it could have been overcome i'm sure). reforming the assocation now takes endless committee meetings, time, etc. not to mention the momentum is get the suggestion supported again and reformed.

also, say for example the nt government gave money to chess (or the australian sports commission did the same). this is not as completely ridiculous as you would think to happen in the next 1/5/10/20 years. they give money to lawn bowls to promote the game to the young. how could this money be directed towards NT without any type of barebone structure in place.

i realise it was disbanded so that the voting in acf meeting wasn't skewed for the 1 absent nt vote. but at the end of the day to me this was of lesser importance as oppose to establishing a foundation for nt chess and enabling it to grow in the future from there. as it stand it will remain a bit of a black hole.

PHAT
12-08-2005, 11:11 PM
For anyone considering starting formalised chess in NT, i would first consider a name change away from CANT. Not the best name for an association getting off the ground ;)

Perhaps thay could be a called a chess union or something.

ChessGuru
13-08-2005, 11:02 AM
What comes first, the chess players or the administrators?

Should the ACF be trying to get some of whichever comes first in the NT?

Lucena
13-08-2005, 11:35 AM
is CG's agenda here to help re-establish an association whose membership numbers were minimal and to give it as much power (possibly?) as the NSWCA at ACF conferences etc?

This raises an interesting issure. Can someone remind me whether the number of votes/delegates or whatever depends on the state's population or its chess population?

Lucena
13-08-2005, 11:40 AM
Perhaps thay could be a called a chess union or something.

:rolleyes: :hand: :naughty: :eek:

shaun
13-08-2005, 01:33 PM
This raises an interesting issure. Can someone remind me whether the number of votes/delegates or whatever depends on the state's population or its chess population?

State Population. 1 vote per million residents or part thereof. Population at the last published census.

On the matter at hand, there is also legal issues that need to be noted. The ACF is an incoporated body and members of an incoporated body are either individuals or other incorporated bodies. If the NTCA has ceased to be an incorporated body in its own right (eg through failure to lodge statutory returns) then to my mind it cannot legally hold a vote on the ACF Council. So whether the ACF wanted to, or did not want to, vote it out should not matter. Legally there is no NTCA and therefore it is not part of the ACF.

Denis_Jessop
13-08-2005, 03:36 PM
i personally thought disbanding the NT chess assocation was a step backward.
(also it should have been called simply the NTCA right?!)

chess activity, like everything, is cyclical. people come into and out of chess in 1/5/10 year periods. nt has a history of players in darwin and alice. a few years back (was it 5 or 10 years back) alice springs had a proper chess tournament there.
however, i would agree at the moment there doesn't seem to be heaps of activity in those centres. however, i know darwin is a fairly vibrant place (and is recognised as one of the fastest growing capitals in australia eg. property and office space there is undervalued due to the discount for the risk of cyclones, etc. so, in 10 years time who knows it could double in population (from 80k to 160k or whatever it is, i'm not too sure).

the association was the platform (foundation) for the players/organisers.
if no one was able to represent then someone from north qld or north wa would have been ok to represent (i guess there could have been a legal problem here but it could have been overcome i'm sure). reforming the assocation now takes endless committee meetings, time, etc. not to mention the momentum is get the suggestion supported again and reformed.

also, say for example the nt government gave money to chess (or the australian sports commission did the same). this is not as completely ridiculous as you would think to happen in the next 1/5/10/20 years. they give money to lawn bowls to promote the game to the young. how could this money be directed towards NT without any type of barebone structure in place.

i realise it was disbanded so that the voting in acf meeting wasn't skewed for the 1 absent nt vote. but at the end of the day to me this was of lesser importance as oppose to establishing a foundation for nt chess and enabling it to grow in the future from there. as it stand it will remain a bit of a black hole.

This posting seems to proceed on a misconception. The CANT was neither formed nor disbanded by the ACF. It was formed by NT Chess Clubs in Darwin and Alice Springs and the prime movers were Terry O'Neill (Darwin) and Norm Taylor (Alice Springs). The name was chosen by them. The ACF afffiliated it, having been informed that the CANT had been incorporated as an incorporated association under NT law and recognising it as most representative of NT chess players. The CANT was represented at one subsequent ACF Council meeting since when there has been silence and the contacts that the ACF had do not respond. Consequently the ACF disaffiliated the CANT last January. As far as I know the CANT still exists as a legal entity though I assume it is not functioning. I am sure that the ACF Council would gladly re-affiliate a rejuvenated CANT, or affiliate some other body, that is most representative of NT chess players, if satisfied of that fact.

DJ

PHAT
13-08-2005, 03:39 PM
If the NTCA has ceased to be an incorporated body in its own right ... then to my mind it cannot legally hold a vote on the ACF Council. So whether the ACF wanted to, or did not want to, vote it out should not matter. Legally there is no NTCA and therefore it is not part of the ACF.

WOW! that is a compelling argument. May be I am stupid, and did not hear/remember that argument at the ACF AGM, or the whole group of the ACF delegates did not put that argument and is thus, 20 times more stupid than me.

auriga
13-08-2005, 04:34 PM
This posting seems to proceed on a misconception. The CANT was neither formed nor disbanded by the ACF. It was formed by NT Chess Clubs in Darwin and Alice Springs and the prime movers were Terry O'Neill (Darwin) and Norm Taylor (Alice Springs). The name was chosen by them. The ACF afffiliated it, having been informed that the CANT had been incorporated as an incorporated association under NT law and recognising it as most representative of NT chess players. The CANT was represented at one subsequent ACF Council meeting since when there has been silence and the contacts that the ACF had do not respond. Consequently the ACF disaffiliated the CANT last January. As far as I know the CANT still exists as a legal entity though I assume it is not functioning. I am sure that the ACF Council would gladly re-affiliate a rejuvenated CANT, or affiliate some other body, that is most representative of NT chess players, if satisfied of that fact.

DJ

thanks denis, this makes it clear what happened.

i still feel we (chess community) could have helped a bit more to
keep the CANT functioning.

maybe enlisted 2 other people to take over as president/secretary
and meet minimum regulatory requirements (annual meeting and fill out forms).

if there was absolutely no-one i guess not much could be done.

ChessGuru
14-08-2005, 05:38 AM
On the matter at hand, there is also legal issues that need to be noted. The ACF is an incoporated body and members of an incoporated body are either individuals or other incorporated bodies.

But the TCA isn't an incorporated body? But it isn't an individual person either?

pax
14-08-2005, 09:57 PM
What comes first, the chess players or the administrators?

Should the ACF be trying to get some of whichever comes first in the NT?

How exactly do you "get" some chess players, if you don't have administrators to "get" them? Perhaps the ACF should wave it's magic wand and some will appear in a puff of smoke?

Kevin Bonham
14-08-2005, 11:46 PM
i still feel we (chess community) could have helped a bit more to
keep the CANT functioning.

maybe enlisted 2 other people to take over as president/secretary
and meet minimum regulatory requirements (annual meeting and fill out forms).

if there was absolutely no-one i guess not much could be done.

I don't think you can just step in and take over an association unilaterally, even if it is an inactive one. Yes, despite many attempts to contact those formerly involved we were not able to raise any signs of life there.

peter_parr
15-08-2005, 03:13 PM
Northern Territory
More than a quarter of a century ago I was invited by the NT Government to direct the Chess Championship of the NT at the Lord Mayor’s chambers in Darwin.
The champions of Darwin, Alice Springs and Nhulunbuy all played. I gave a simultaneous exhibition to about 35-40 players with numerous spectators.

The great Territorian Charles See-Kee of Darwin Chess Club organised the events, many schools participated in the Darwin inter-schools competition.

The Lord Mayor, Rolf Harris, myself and an Australian army general (who was taught chess by Captain Koshnitsky in the war) were on stage for the March past of the Australian Armed Forces.

Peter Parr (OAM)

eclectic
15-08-2005, 04:42 PM
I don't think you can just step in and take over an association unilaterally, even if it is an inactive one. Yes, despite many attempts to contact those formerly involved we were not able to raise any signs of life there.

surely if an association has not held an AGM and appointed executives after a certain period of time then that association ceases to exist ... there must be provisions under articles of the various national/ state/territory incorporations acts which would require this

and yeah, for those so interested in getting chess in the northern territory up and running why not hold an international open up in darwin each year for the next ten years and have it incorporate the australian championships?

think of the all the titled players north of there who would love to come down and play and the increased chances of players here getting norms or titles

never mind ... i'm going outside to watch a pig or three fly past ...

eclectic

Rincewind
15-08-2005, 04:44 PM
surely if an association has not held an AGM and appointed executives after a certain period of time then that association ceases to exist ... there must be provisions under articles of the various national/ state/territory incorporations acts which would require this

and yeah, for those so interested in getting chess in the northern territory up and running why not hold an international open up in darwin each year for the next ten years and have it incorporate the australian championships?

think of the all the titled players north of there who would love to come down and play and the increased chances of players here getting norms or titles

never mind ... i'm going outside to watch a pig or three fly past ...

Not as silly as you might think. The proximity of Darwin to strong chess playing countries in the SE Asia region would mean hosting an international tournament there would have certain advantages over Melbourne or Sydney.

pax
15-08-2005, 05:17 PM
Not as silly as you might think. The proximity of Darwin to strong chess playing countries in the SE Asia region would mean hosting an international tournament there would have certain advantages over Melbourne or Sydney.

Contrary to what you might assume, it is actually generally MORE expensive to get from SE Asia to Darwin, than it is to get to, say, Sydney. This is just because it's a small airport, demand is low, and there aren't many flights.

Rincewind
15-08-2005, 05:38 PM
Contrary to what you might assume, it is actually generally MORE expensive to get from SE Asia to Darwin, than it is to get to, say, Sydney. This is just because it's a small airport, demand is low, and there aren't many flights.

Which is weird when you think that fuel costs must be a major factor. Don't tell me there is cross-subsidising going on! ;)

eclectic
15-08-2005, 10:05 PM
never mind ...

i was most likely suffering a relapse or a variant of the

australian chess wheel invented yet again syndrome ...

what with this cold snap and all ...

please forgive me

sniffle ...

eclectic

pax
16-08-2005, 12:13 PM
Which is weird when you think that fuel costs must be a major factor. Don't tell me there is cross-subsidising going on! ;)

No, just simple economics.

If you have 25 flights a week on a particular route, it is generally cheaper per seat than if you have 5 flights per week. There is also more competition on flights in and out of Sydney compared to Darwin.

Kevin Bonham
16-08-2005, 11:36 PM
Nature abhors a vacuum. I wonder how long it is before Chess Kids Northern Territory leaps into existence to fill this gaping hole.

PHAT
17-08-2005, 12:20 AM
Nature abhors a vacuum. I wonder how long it is before Chess Kids Northern Territory leaps into existence to fill this gaping hole.

It lept into another gaping hole in the far far south. ;)

Lucena
08-09-2005, 09:52 PM
Nature abhors a vacuum. I wonder how long it is before Chess Kids Northern Territory leaps into existence to fill this gaping hole.

http://www.auschess.org.au/bulletins/newbull.htm#NT

jay_vee
08-09-2005, 09:59 PM
So now, instead of for-profit businesses sponsoring the not-for-profit org it's supposed to work the other way around? :eek:

PHAT
08-09-2005, 10:28 PM
So now, instead of for-profit businesses sponsoring the not-for-profit org it's supposed to work the other way around? :eek:

Karl Marx was right. "They" want to nationalise the losses and privatise the profits.

ursogr8
08-09-2005, 11:19 PM
Karl Marx was right. "They" want to nationalise the losses and privatise the profits.

You don't happen to be sitting on a fence Matt, are you?

Just for the hypothetical........imagine you are an ACF Councillor.
You are allowed to vote NO to the motion, and NT goes ahead at the rate of psoriasis covering the whole body, or you vote YES and development occurs under private enterprise.
Can you put your Aus. Democrat hair-shirt away for a while and advise how you would vote?

starter

PHAT
09-09-2005, 12:00 AM
Just for the hypothetical........imagine you are an ACF Councillor.
You are allowed to vote NO to the motion, and NT goes ahead at the rate of psoriasis covering the whole body, or you vote YES and development occurs under private enterprise.


Unlike many here, I will lash my soul to my flag and answer the question put.

I vote NO to that proposal - because it stinks. (see Karl Marx)

I get on the dog and bone and start horse trading with the Guru.

"Mate," I say, "how would you like the nod to run the Vic Juniors and be the Vic Juniors selector for a few years. We would want a cap on your entry fees but at least we can deal CV out of the picture for you."

"What's the catch Shylock?"

"Yea of little faith, Shirlock. There be no catch, except you have to get NT up and running at, say, 1000 rated games per year."

pax
09-09-2005, 09:45 AM
http://www.auschess.org.au/bulletins/newbull.htm#NT

Presumably the ACF will recieve (or have recieved) a proposal outlining exactly how this grant would be spent, and what outcomes should be expected in return.

If the proposal is well thought out and reasonable, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If DC manages to start a ChissKids NT, and run an active school chess scene in the NT, then that would be a great boost for Australian Chess (and possibly also for DC's bottom line).

That said, public-private partnerships have a pretty dodgy record.

ursogr8
09-09-2005, 10:04 AM
Unlike many here, I will lash my soul to my flag and answer the question put.

I vote NO to that proposal - because it stinks. (see Karl Marx)

I get on the dog and bone and start horse trading with the Guru.

"Mate," I say, "how would you like the nod to run the Vic Juniors and be the Vic Juniors selector for a few years. We would want a cap on your entry fees but at least we can deal CV out of the picture for you."

"What's the catch Shylock?"

"Yea of little faith, Shirlock. There be no catch, except you have to get NT up and running at, say, 1000 rated games per year."

We do appreciate your responses here Matt, even though it takes me longer than doing the Sukodu to work out that Shirlock is Shylock with a magnifying glass. ;)

So...to the issue of your post. It seems you have the position that it would be good for the GURU to develop activities in the NT.....but you want to haggle on the price. In which case you would, as an ACF Councillor, move an amendment, THEN vote YES.
And what will you have achieved by the amendment? You will have moved from the transparency of $5k, clear to all, to the 'hidden' benefit of a sinecure on a remotish market. Typical Aus. Democrat. :rolleyes:

starter

antichrist
09-09-2005, 10:51 AM
I think it should be more a labour of love than a profit motive. $5K won't go anywhere if accom and full travel expenses are charged.

If performed by a local there will be no accomm charge and travel charges can be heavily discounted by doing circles of personal chores (social etc) at same time. Also being a loco their hearts are more likely to be in it.

If motion adopted payments should be in installments with final 33% only on proof of results achieved. That is so many registered paid up players, and so many schools have chess in their weekly program.

It could be that the Territory culture is not very chess-oriented, which in that case schools programs are essential. Realistic assessments must be made of what can be achieved.

Due to Aborigines evolving different to ourselves - in that they can remember aspects of a picture better than us "whiteys" - I have always thought of it as a special opportunity and challenge to teach them and see if that special quality comes through. I am expecting no blind spots amongst them.

Ian Rout
09-09-2005, 10:51 AM
I think there are four issues (at least)

- In terms of bang for the buck, is this really the best use of this amount of money? It's an area with a population of a little over 200,000 and no doubt there is scope to expand the amount of chess being played. But the same is true of, say, Wollongong. Would ACF be better off giving the funds to Matthew to establish some clubs and programs? The idea of identifying priority zones and giving start-up assistance is interesting but maybe trying to push chess into the NT psyche may not be a cost-effective exercise.

- Who gets the money? If the ACF feels that NT is a priority area it should call for bids and proposals, not annoint one deliverer. Presumably someone whose past history suggests that they may take the money then announce that the project is too hard and they will do it in Melbourne instead would be at a disadvantage.

- And on that subject, what performance indicators and penalty clauses will be attached? Is the proponent undertaking to deliver x registered players in NT, y rated games per year etc or your money back?

- And is the proponent putting in a matching amount, or refunding the grant from profits if any successful business starts up in Darwin?

PHAT
09-09-2005, 08:12 PM
I think there are four issues (at least)

- In terms of bang for the buck, is this really the best use of this amount of money? I

THAT, depends on how much the ACF pays. :roll eyes:

Who gets the money? If the ACF feels that NT is a priority area it should call for bids and proposals, not annoint one deliverer.

Begger cannot be chosers. If a "doer" want to put a proposal, all those who did not put a similar proposal can GF.


... what performance indicators and penalty clauses will be attached?

The vision comes before the plan, the plan before the detail. Leave the details to the ACF - it is called trusting your elected (:lol:) leaders. or, errrrrr, don't you trust them? Name names (c).

firegoat7
10-09-2005, 12:49 PM
- And is the proponent putting in a matching amount, or refunding the grant from profits if any successful business starts up in Darwin?

Well its the Chinese numbers business game scam, is it not?. Guru claims numbers will be good for chess, to develop those numbers Guru needs money from PUBLIC resources. The implied suggestion is that the mythical Chinese chess numbers in Darwin, will then contribute to the ACF coffers.

But of course anybody who has any common sense can see that GURU will get a quick buck and there is no guarantee of success for his project. Just a possibility.

Nevertheless the project may work, but a key question is why should the ACF have to risk any of its money for that project to succeed.? Well the answer to that question my friends is that the ACF should not risk any of its money. Investing $5000 in the development of Northern territory junior chess is not something the ACF is responsible for, given its small amount of financial resources.

The ACF ought to be aiming to build a financial nest egg, not partaking in every privatised scheme that comes before it from well connected chess people. Lets face it the chess mafia is alive and well in Australia and given Gurus recent history with ChessVictoria and the Mt Buller fiasco it seems amazing that the ACF even entertains the idea.

Let Guru fund his own developments. Let the ACF spend our PUBLIC money wisely.

Cheers Fg7

Gringo
10-09-2005, 02:25 PM
Guru down the Plug Hole, 3 cheers.......

PHAT
10-09-2005, 03:27 PM
Let Guru fund his own developments. Let the ACF spend our PUBLIC money wisely.


Yes, FG, I tend to agree. That is why I would put a deal on the table that costs the ACF $0 but may well appeal to the Guru. The ACF should be in the busines of attracting people who might be able to help expand Australian Chess. But don't hold your breath. I mean realy :rolleyes: ... Right now they have NO corporate face, NO Olympiad face, and no junior selection coord. face. but why is it so?

THE ACF STINKS SO BAD that it cannot even attract people to be seen with there names on the same web page as the current incombants. I think it is a case of everyone in Australian chess saying that joining the ACF would be like joining the Australian Democrats.

four four two
12-09-2005, 12:05 PM
Why o why is the ACF even considering that proposal from DC? With his shakey record of organising surely he should be one of the last people you would consider? The running of a state/territory MUST be run by someone who lives there long term. Could you imagine how local and potential members would feel if say the tassie chess association was being run part time by someone from sydney or melbourne?
If the previous locals who ran the NT are of no availability anymore the ACF should at least try to advertise the situation to potential locals through official NT govt websites,hell you might even get a grant!

:wall: :evil: