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Thunderspirit
27-07-2005, 01:33 PM
I just read that after 10 years at the top Premier Bob Carr has resigned. This came as a huge suprise for me, though he is resigning at 'the top' he has nothing else to prove, though the state could do with his leadership. Sadly he ruled out going into federal politics. What do people think??

Rincewind
27-07-2005, 01:36 PM
I just read that after 10 years at the top Premier Bob Carr has resigned. This came as a huge suprise for me, though he is resigning at 'the top' he has nothing else to prove, though the state could do with his leadership. Sadly he ruled out going into federal politics. What do people think??

Sounds like you are a Carr supporter in which case you don't really want to hear what I think. ;)

But good luck to Bob with whatever he has planned from here.

arosar
27-07-2005, 02:03 PM
[snip] woulda lost the next elections anyway - the bastard. He's just stuffed up everything in this bloody state.

AR

Trent Parker
27-07-2005, 04:19 PM
hopefully the state government can concentrate more on the trains than the
Car(r)s! :lol:

PHAT
27-07-2005, 04:50 PM
Now I will tell what Carr's legacies are .













































































Yep. All that.

Trent Parker
27-07-2005, 05:05 PM
Matt you've missed out turning cityrail into s**ttyrail!

Rincewind
27-07-2005, 06:21 PM
I think Carr resigning after topping Wran's record by a small margin just reduces the small regard I already held Carr in. It's not so much that he is a worse premier than Wran (although that is patently true); it's just that politics have changed so much since Wran retired. Now it is all about media management and double-guessing popular opinion. That's why will have no more Wrans, Langs, or federally Whitlams, Menzies, etc, etc. We're stuck with a choice between the political equivalents of game show hosts when really we need some of the contestants.

However, regarding Cityrail, I don't believe you can lay the blame entirely at Carr's door. Sure I don't think he has improved things at all but it was already pretty shabby when he got it. Privatise and corporatise were the flavours of the decade and there you have it. I commuted daily on the South Coast line under the Greiner and Fahey governments and things were certainly no bed of roses back then either.

bergil
27-07-2005, 09:53 PM
He has released land back to the public around the harbour, created more state forests, education: higher literacy rates and computers in every school, Olympics,

Not least of all represented NSW with class dignity and intelligence, keeped a cool head when the public distrubances in Redfern and Lakemba were on, Sound economy

bergil
27-07-2005, 09:58 PM
Matt you've missed out turning cityrail into s**ttyrail!
The trains have been hopelss before Wran was in, there will never be enough money to have great public transport in NSW.

bergil
27-07-2005, 10:02 PM
That f**kwit woulda lost the next elections anyway - the bastard. He's just stuffed up everything in this bloody state.

AR
Don't let the door hit you on the way out then. Don't forget to send a postcard from neverland, where its magical and nobody ever grows up

PHAT
28-07-2005, 12:04 AM
He has released land back to the public around the harbour, created more state forests, education: higher literacy rates and computers in every school, Olympics,

Not least of all represented NSW with class dignity and intelligence, keeped a cool head when the public distrubances in Redfern and Lakemba were on, Sound economy

Land around harbour was always "ours".

More tate forests but fewer camping areas.

Education: dumbed down HSC, fewer text books, leaking roofs, unexpellability, junk computers + no IT staff.

Olympic sized white elephant sports complex.

The Block (Redfern).

Some of the nation's highest unemployment levels in New Castle and Wollongong.

Schitzos in the streets.

Identified "at risk" kids dead.

Corrupt pigs from top to bottom.

Massive court delays.

Water restrictions.

Princes Highway: the nation's road of death.



Don't talk to me about Carr being anything other than a human turd.

Spiny Norman
28-07-2005, 08:00 AM
We're stuck with a choice between the political equivalents of game show hosts when really we need some of the contestants.

Not sure I agree with that. It may be true in NSW ... but in VIC we've had Jeff Kennett in recent memory. It couldn't be said that he shirked an issue. Federally, John Howard is occasionally hard-headed. Who can forget the GST. We all thought he was mad running a campaign based on a new tax.

But I don't know Carr, other than that he's a survivor. I would imagine that his biography will one day make interesting reading. You don't survive in politics for that many years without accumulating a lot of interesting stuff (ditto for Howard). I've just finished reading bios for Sen. Graham Richardson and Jeff Kennett. Both exceeding interesting as a reflection of those times.

Rincewind
28-07-2005, 08:49 AM
Not sure I agree with that. It may be true in NSW ... but in VIC we've had Jeff Kennett in recent memory. It couldn't be said that he shirked an issue. Federally, John Howard is occasionally hard-headed. Who can forget the GST. We all thought he was mad running a campaign based on a new tax.

I class Kennett as the southern equivalent of Joh - popular dictator who cleverly feigned stupidity.

Howard only ran the GST once labour was in such disarray they were unable to effectively counter it. He prettied it up and sold it competently but there was no meaningful resistence, the voters had no choice.

The only really hard stance Howard has taken was on guns and that was only in the wake of the Port Arthur shooting so again he was following, not leading. Immigrant detention is another but that has the support of a lot of middle Australia. It's just the bleeding-heart liberals with high-school level of education or better who oppose that.


But I don't know Carr, other than that he's a survivor. I would imagine that his biography will one day make interesting reading. You don't survive in politics for that many years without accumulating a lot of interesting stuff (ditto for Howard). I've just finished reading bios for Sen. Graham Richardson and Jeff Kennett. Both exceeding interesting as a reflection of those times.

True but really, get a good enough ghost writer and anyone's memoirs would make good reading - even yours or mine. ;)

Garvinator
28-07-2005, 01:33 PM
Immigrant detention is another but that has the support of a lot of middle Australia. It's just the bleeding-heart liberals with high-school level of education or better who oppose that.
also John Howard was also following because he was seeing the rise of Pauline Hanson and so combined some of her policies with his own and re badged them. So once again he was following, not leading.

This does raise the interesting discussion of- what are politicians supposed to be?

When they follow public opinion, which they were elected by- they are criticised as not taking a stance, but when they ignore public opinion for the so called greater good, they are then criticised for ignoring the 'majority' :hmm:

Spiny Norman
28-07-2005, 02:20 PM
what are politicians supposed to be?

I thought that their job is, first and foremost, to represent their constituents.

I guess that makes them followers ... and we're the leaders.

arosar
29-08-2005, 12:54 PM
... and out goes Brogden. He apparently called Carr's wife a 'mail order bride' and also pinched a journo's bottom. What a f**kwit.

AR

Thunderspirit
29-08-2005, 01:39 PM
... and out goes Brogden. He apparently called Carr's wife a 'mail order bride' and also pinched a journo's bottom. What a f**kwit.

AR

It's all true, though at this stage the Lib's won't be asking him to go, and there will be no leadership challenge... though a week is a long time in politics...

Libby
29-08-2005, 01:39 PM
... and out goes Brogden. He apparently called Carr's wife a 'mail order bride' and also pinched a journo's bottom. What a f**kwit.

AR

I heard him interviewed this morning. He claimed not to be drunk.

I wasn't sure that it made his case look better. It's one thing (not an excusable thing) to be in his position and act like a f**kwit when you're drunk, but to admit behaving like that when just happily tippled - well ...

Libby
29-08-2005, 01:40 PM
It's all true, though at this stage the Lib's won't be asking him to go...
They don't have to - he jumped without waiting for the push ... :clap:

Thunderspirit
29-08-2005, 01:42 PM
I heard him interviewed this morning. He claimed not to be drunk.

I wasn't sure that it made his case look better. It's one thing (not an excusable thing) to be in his position and act like a f**kwit when you're drunk, but to admit behaving like that when just happily tippled - well ...

The journo was a friend of his, though it's still unacceptable. She did feel uncomfortable by his actions though.

His comments about Helena Carr were completely unacceptable though. Ok I'm baised being a Labor voter but I like Helena Carr and I think she gained the respect of the community.

Thunderspirit
29-08-2005, 02:00 PM
Brogden just resigned! Check ninemsn.com.au for the report!!

Libby
29-08-2005, 02:03 PM
The journo was a friend of his, though it's still unacceptable. She did feel uncomfortable by his actions though.

Sorry Lee, how often do your friends (and let's not worry about gender here) grope or proposition you?

"She did feel uncomfortable" - enough said. It is utterly inappropriate for a "friend" to push the boundaries beyond where they are welcome.

Girls put up with enough sleazy, revolting guys who've had too much to drink and fancy their chances. They don't need that to come from their friends as well.

Thunderspirit
29-08-2005, 02:11 PM
Sorry Lee, how often do your friends (and let's not worry about gender here) grope or proposition you?

"She did feel uncomfortable" - enough said. It is utterly inappropriate for a "friend" to push the boundaries beyond where they are welcome.

Girls put up with enough sleazy, revolting guys who've had too much to drink and fancy their chances. They don't need that to come from their friends as well.

Hi Libby,
Friend or not what Brogden did was completely unacceptable and in no way did I try to accuse his actions...
Maybe I didn't make that clear, but I would have hoped you would have taken that for granted from me.

antichrist
29-08-2005, 02:15 PM
Many women are also very unhappy in the reverse situation, i.e., they grope you or something and you knock them back, do they turn against you.

It's even happened to me a few times.

PHAT
29-08-2005, 04:07 PM
Many women are also very unhappy in the reverse situation, i.e., they grope you or something and you knock them back, do they turn against you.

It's even happened to me a few times.

They weren't women.

Rincewind
29-08-2005, 04:18 PM
He apparently called Carr's wife a 'mail order bride'

To be fair Carr was one of the most media savvy politicians going around. He never avoided exploiting Helena's ethnicity when he thought it might win him votes. Not that that excuses Brogden's comments but might put some context around them.

PHAT
29-08-2005, 05:15 PM
Without regard for Carr's marriage, who here thinks ordering a bride by mail is a baggable behaviour? Who is gonna be brave enought to answer that?

antichrist
29-08-2005, 06:18 PM
They weren't women.

Was it Shakespeare who wrote "Hell has no fury like a woman...."

Libby
29-08-2005, 06:25 PM
To be fair Carr was one of the most media savvy politicians going around. He never avoided exploiting Helena's ethnicity when he thought it might win him votes. Not that that excuses Brogden's comments but might put some context around them.

The context being? Did Bob Carr trot her out to fulfil the slavering masses' need to fit pathetic male racist stereotypes? Or was it really no more than the average political wife being "trotted out" to nod appropriately at Breast Cancer initiatives, childcare chats and Women's Day Awards?

Tony Greig made some equally appalling gaffe during cricket commentary a few years back.

I don't give politician's too much credit (Bronwyn Bishop was exceptionally awful on Sunday Sunrise yesterday) but I generally expect those who lead a mainstream party to be savvy enough to keep such comments to themselves and certainly not air them at public functions. I'll file it with Alexander Downer's "Things that Batter." Now there's a politician to be proud of :sick: :crazy: :buttkick:

Rincewind
29-08-2005, 07:08 PM
The context being? Did Bob Carr trot her out to fulfil the slavering masses' need to fit pathetic male racist stereotypes? Or was it really no more than the average political wife being "trotted out" to nod appropriately at Breast Cancer initiatives, childcare chats and Women's Day Awards?

Actually I was thinking of the party political advertising during the 2003 election.

BTW was your comment...

Girls put up with enough sleazy, revolting guys who've had too much to drink and fancy their chances. They don't need that to come from their friends as well.

Referring to that unfortunate incident at the ANU? If so I humbly apologise.

bergil
30-08-2005, 12:25 AM
Without regard for Carr's marriage, who here thinks ordering a bride by mail is a baggable behaviour? Who is gonna be brave enought to answer that?
Its ok if both parties are happy then who cares where or how you meet.

What's bad about a so called "mail order bride" is potental for exploitation, to use the power of residency or citizenship over the other.

PHAT
30-08-2005, 06:28 AM
What's bad about a so called "mail order bride" is potental for exploitation, to use the power of residency or citizenship over the other.

There is an exploitation that cuts both ways. So, I guess it is fair to both.

Kevin Bonham
30-08-2005, 01:28 PM
One thing I've seen no explanation of in all the fuss about Brogden's "mail-order bride" question is this: is it actually true?

(I'm assuming otherwise, but I'm just astonished that the offensiveness or otherwise of the comment can be so widely explored in the media without accompanying discussion of its accuracy.)

Rincewind
30-08-2005, 01:43 PM
One thing I've seen no explanation of in all the fuss about Brogden's "mail-order bride" question is this: is it actually true?

(I'm assuming otherwise, but I'm just astonished that the offensiveness or otherwise of the comment can be so widely explored in the media without accompanying discussion of its accuracy.)

My understanding is Helena was already in Australia and a successful businesswoman when she met Bob while holidaying in Tahiti.

bergil
30-08-2005, 01:44 PM
One thing I've seen no explanation of in all the fuss about Brogden's "mail-order bride" question is this: is it actually true?

(I'm assuming otherwise, but I'm just astonished that the offensiveness or otherwise of the comment can be so widely explored in the media without accompanying discussion of its accuracy.)
His quitting and apology is proof its not.

bergil
31-08-2005, 11:37 AM
Brogden tried to take his life last night and is recovering in hospital, Bob Carr said he wished him well and to put this incident behind him.

Spiny Norman
31-08-2005, 11:43 AM
Brogden tried to take his life last night and is recovering in hospital, Bob Carr said he wished him well and to put this incident behind him.
That wasn't what he was saying about him last night on the news ... BC said some very harsh things ... I wonder if he will apologise for that?

Libby
31-08-2005, 11:47 AM
Referring to that unfortunate incident at the ANU? If so I humbly apologise.

I thought we were keeping that quiet ... I have a reputation to protect ;)

bergil
31-08-2005, 12:15 PM
That wasn't what he was saying about him last night on the news ... BC said some very harsh things ... I wonder if he will apologise for that?
Bob was right to say them, he didn't say he deserves to die or that he should kill himself. It sad that Brogden tried to take his life but don't try to blame Carr for Brogden's actions. Only a half wit does that! :hand:

Trent Parker
31-08-2005, 12:16 PM
I thought we were keeping that quiet ... I have a reputation to protect ;)

Whats this????? Do i smell a contraversy?????

I heard nothing at ANU?????

(BTW I'm only joking around guys :D)

bergil
31-08-2005, 12:22 PM
If you must point a finger, then point it at the Daily Telegraph who this morning in the first edition, was said to have published further allegations of other misdeeds of Brogden's.

arosar
31-08-2005, 12:36 PM
How about that piece of rubbish by Cumming in yesterday's SMH? It was one of the most insincere and pretentious piece of journalism, if you could call it that, that I've read in the SMH.

AR

PHAT
31-08-2005, 04:14 PM
One old woman I know said of all this, "What is wrong with these women? For heavens sake, a man gets drunk does some silly things and they want him to lose his career."

I tend to agree. Private time jokes and normal male behaviour should not form part of the way we determine who runs government. I would love to see those women's "behaviours" plastered all over the front page.

bergil
31-08-2005, 05:41 PM
One old woman I know said of all this, "What is wrong with these women? For heavens sake, a man gets drunk does some silly things and they want him to lose his career."

I tend to agree. Private time jokes and normal male behaviour should not form part of the way we determine who runs government. I would love to see those women's "behaviours" plastered all over the front page.
While its true to say that other politicans have done worse, its not fair to say it alright to make a racial slurs and a few "how's about it" as a leader of any party.(maybe the democrates)

He resigned from being leader of his party, not from parliament. Thats a pay cut to be sure but not a loss of career, as Bob Carr said this morning "this is a very forgiving society" He could in time be a minister or even leader again.

pballard
31-08-2005, 06:03 PM
While its true to say that other politicans have done worse, its not fair to say it alright to make a racial slurs and a few "how's about it" as a leader of any party.(maybe the democrates)


I agree on the racial slur, but not on the others. There's a longstanding tradition in Australia of leaving politicians' private lives alone. (Unless it's unlawful e.g. sexual harassment).

Note I don't at all condone the alleged sexual behaviour, I'm just pointing out that the Brogden's been singled out, at least in the Daily Telegraph article.

Libby
31-08-2005, 06:44 PM
One old woman I know said of all this, "What is wrong with these women? For heavens sake, a man gets drunk does some silly things and they want him to lose his career."

I tend to agree. Private time jokes and normal male behaviour should not form part of the way we determine who runs government. I would love to see those women's "behaviours" plastered all over the front page.

I tend to think - as with Shane Warne - that small, or one-off indiscretions will be easily forgiven/forgotten in the public arena and by the media.

Repeated acts of idiocy (let alone harassment) and the guy deserves all he gets. If there is any meat on the bones of the "new" allegations, it probably explains the ire of the female journalist "friends" he hit on at the party.

Nobody should be driven to suicide attempts or hounded into the ground, but guys can't wave this all away as boisterous boys having a harmless good time. We've seen where that has led enough footballers, let alone some of the girls who have certainly not "asked for it."

arosar
31-08-2005, 06:50 PM
I have no sympathy for this idiot for attempting to kill himself. He is a weak man, unwilling stand up to his wife, his family and his electorate. An embarassment.

AR

Rincewind
31-08-2005, 07:08 PM
I have no sympathy for this idiot for attempting to kill himself. He is a weak man, unwilling stand up to his wife, his family and his electorate. An embarassment.

You are the idiot.

arosar
31-08-2005, 07:16 PM
HAHAHAA...LOL

So our resident intellectual is feeling sorry for an incompetent wanna be premier who looked more like a preppy than a pollie with street cred! Oohhhh...how cute!

AR

Rincewind
31-08-2005, 07:35 PM
So our resident intellectual is feeling sorry for an incompetent wanna be premier who looked more like a preppy than a pollie with street cred! Oohhhh...how cute!

No just pointing out that uncompassionate arseholes should get some perspective before proffering an opinion on a state of mind with which they obviously have no experience. Both sides of politics were joined in wishing Brogden a swift recovery. Your post was crass, the timing was woeful and (for you) completely in character.

Rhubarb
31-08-2005, 07:39 PM
Amiel, give it a break.

I hate capital Liberal politicians with a passion, as a rule.

But Brogden is so far gone he's asking for forgiveness in the ultimate way. Have some sympathy.

arosar
31-08-2005, 08:15 PM
No just pointing out that uncompassionate ...

There you go again being a wannabe lecturer...oh wise one. You dare speak to me of compassion? As for being crass...hey, buddy, I didn't call anyone a MOB.

Just to be clear, I found his errors more amusing than unforgivable - even the MOB remark. But to go and kill yourself? How do you respect such a man?

AR

Rincewind
31-08-2005, 08:23 PM
There you go again being a wannabe lecturer...oh wise one. You dare speak to me of compassion? As for being crass...hey, buddy, I didn't call anyone a MOB.

Just to be clear, I found his errors more amusing than unforgivable - even the MOB remark. But to go and kill yourself? How do you respect such a man?

If I was a wannabe lecturer I'd set you the following homework for this week: define non sequitur - you will find ample examples in the quote above. You have painted yourself into a corner, Amiel. The only thing left is to call me "unAustralian".

arosar
31-08-2005, 08:26 PM
If I was a wannabe lecturer I'd set you the following homework for this week: define non sequitur - you will find ample examples in the quote above. You have painted yourself into a corner, Amiel. The only thing left is to call me "unAustralian".

Just as I thought! LOL...playing the usual line. You get youself confused you are left with no choice but to bang out your usual trickery with your fancy latin.

AR

arosar
31-08-2005, 08:29 PM
But Brogden is so far gone he's asking for forgiveness in the ultimate way. Have some sympathy.

Mate, Brogden's attempt at seppuku did not redeem him.

AR

Rhubarb
31-08-2005, 08:45 PM
Mate, Brogden's attempt at seppuku did not redeem him.

AR
Can anything redeem him in your eyes?

Rincewind
31-08-2005, 08:51 PM
Can anything redeem him in your eyes?

How is that rec math problem coming along, kegless? I think we have found the lowest common denominator in this thread. ;)

arosar
31-08-2005, 08:59 PM
Can anything redeem him in your eyes?

But that's the point. He was not completely sunk. He could have waited 3-5 years, toughen up, and make a comeback. It was no more than a PR crisis. To kill yourself over that? C'mon!

AR

Rhubarb
31-08-2005, 09:10 PM
How is that rec math problem coming along, kegless? I think we have found the lowest common denominator in this thread. ;)That's true. Amiel's got issues, definitely. Something must have happened to him, or his family, or his country - by the right-wing white fidiotŪ.


The rec math problem's on the way..........maybe.....

antichrist
31-08-2005, 09:11 PM
He must earn the title of The Groping Moping Insulting Melodrama Kid - Brodgen that is.

Rincewind
31-08-2005, 09:21 PM
This and other posts, good example from a mod.

I'm not a mod.

arosar
31-08-2005, 09:25 PM
Oh by the way, did I mention this (http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,16439770-5001021,00.html)?

AR

antichrist
31-08-2005, 09:26 PM
I'm not a mod.

Are you Administrator of Insults?

Rhubarb
31-08-2005, 09:40 PM
Oh by the way, did I mention this (http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,16439770-5001021,00.html)?

AR
Okay, I didn't know about all this.

One thing I must read: Goethe's Faust (no doubt it's boring as batshit).

Edit: It was in my interest to dismiss Faust in a satirical fashion. But just an initial reading on the web is enough to convince me, it's time to read the greatest piece of literature ever.

Rhubarb
01-09-2005, 02:48 AM
it's time to read the greatest piece of literature ever.

okay maybe not. man that's a come-down if ever ... what kind of eugenic f*ckwit recommends that kind of shit.... :doh: :doh:

Edit: To explain further, I only knew of Goethe as some 1700-1800 philosopher and writer. I had no idea his thoughts were part of the early 20th century German, ....well you know.

firegoat7
01-09-2005, 10:57 AM
One thing I've seen no explanation of in all the fuss about Brogden's "mail-order bride" question is this: is it actually true?

(I'm assuming otherwise, but I'm just astonished that the offensiveness or otherwise of the comment can be so widely explored in the media without accompanying discussion of its accuracy.)

It must be difficult for an a-social type like yourself to understand.

Why on earth would it matter why Carr and his wife married? Surely it is none of Brogdens business, nor anybody elses in the public arena.

Furthermore if you really are "astonished' then maybe you should ask yourself-what type of stereotype is Brogden trying to create. Answer-an inaccurate beat up based on ethnic bias.
Why on earth should the media investigate such B.S

cheers Fg7

firegoat7
01-09-2005, 11:09 AM
:boohoo:
I have no sympathy for this idiot for attempting to kill himself. He is a weak man, unwilling stand up to his wife, his family and his electorate. An embarassment.

AR :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Damn straight....the pig eats from the trough then gets shamed over something he created himself...what a joke...the guys so hopeless he cannot even kill himself properly, and he wants to be a leader? what a clown. Let us all play the :boohoo: for the poor little rich prat.

cheers Fg7

arosar
01-09-2005, 11:16 AM
...a silver spoon rrrrse licker who sexually harrasses women and beats up on ethnic minority stereotypes...

Exactly! This bloke Brogden is a sorry-assed bastard. He got himself caught out having the biggest brain explosion in modern state politics. He was gonna be in trouble with the media, the Party, his missus and his family. What does he do? He decides to kill himself - leaving behind a wife as well as, btw, a young son! How can you respect such man?

AR

antichrist
01-09-2005, 11:18 AM
Charming,compassionate and undoubtly sincere. Wonderful moral hypocrisy.

AR shows no sensitivity towards a silver spoon rrrrse licker who sexually harrasses women and beats up on ethnic minority stereotypes and you tell him to kill himself over it. Your a goose Rincewind.

cheers Fg7

I just wish Brogden would have done both of those things to my Filipina Tae Kwondo-expert friend. One guy grabbed her bum and she gave him the biggest smile to lure him in and then made mince meat out of him to everyone's delight. I have no doubt she could do the same to AR, she is bigger than him as well.

RWIPI 7.5

arosar
01-09-2005, 11:22 AM
I just wish Brogden would have done both of those things to my Filipina Tae Kwondo-expert friend. One guy grabbed her bum and she gave him the biggest smile to lure him in and then made mince meat out of him to everyone's delight. I have no doubt she could do the same to AR, she is bigger than him as well.

Mate, some blokes do like to be slapped around a bit by some sheila you know.

AR

antichrist
01-09-2005, 11:23 AM
Exactly! This bloke Brogden is a sorry-assed bastard. He got himself caught out having the biggest brain explosion in modern state politics. He was gonna be in trouble with the media, the Party, his missus and his family. What does he do? He decides to kill himself - leaving behind a wife as well as, btw, a young son! How can you respect such man?

AR

He was displaying typical female melodrama!

jenni
01-09-2005, 12:16 PM
He was displaying typical female melodrama!

no - female ineptitude. According to the statistics, fewer males attampt suicide, but they are more succesful at it.

Spiny Norman
01-09-2005, 12:17 PM
Damn straight....the pig eats from the trough then gets shamed over something he created himself...what a joke...the guys so hopeless he cannot even kill himself properly, and he wants to be a leader? what a clown. Let us all play the :boohoo: for the poor little rich prat.
You ought to go find yourself a safe electorate somewhere and see what its like ... our leaders (no matter what flavour) are done no favours by us, the media, their colleagues, etc. I have a few acquaintances in politics (I hesitate to call them friends!) and I would [edit: NOT] have their job for quids.

I suspect there's still a lot more to this story than what's been told yet. One day someone will write a 'tell all' book and it'll become clear. Brogden may well have a few more skeletons in the closet???

Kevin Bonham
01-09-2005, 02:24 PM
It must be difficult for an a-social type like yourself to understand.

Your persistent use of discredited personal stereotypes calls into question your ability to understand anything. :hand:


Why on earth would it matter why Carr and his wife married? Surely it is none of Brogdens business, nor anybody elses in the public arena.

It indeed doesn't matter why Carr and his wife married. But whether Brogden's comment is true or not makes a degree of difference to how offensive his comment was. If he was assuming that simply because Carr had married a woman of Asian ethnicity that she must be, or that it was OK to call her, a "mail order bride", then Brogden was being a flat-out racist. If on the other hand his statement had been true (from the replies above I can see that it wasn't), then that would not necessarily follow - it then might have reflected something different, like a prejudice against that form of marriage.

I also believe that whether a politician's statements are accurate or not is important. It is one thing to engage in personal vilification based on something that is true but irrelevant, and quite a worse thing to do so when the claims being made are not even true.


Furthermore if you really are "astonished' then maybe you should ask yourself-what type of stereotype is Brogden trying to create. Answer-an inaccurate beat up based on ethnic bias.

It seems like you are assuming the answer in concluding the above.

Kevin Bonham
01-09-2005, 02:45 PM
Oh by the way, did I mention this (http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,16439770-5001021,00.html)?

AR

In today's crikey.com.au mailout there was a lovely reprisal piece pointing out the sleazy sexual history of several of the Daily Telegraph staff and suggesting that their moral authority in this matter was more than a little bit suspect.

arosar
01-09-2005, 02:55 PM
In today's crikey.com.au mailout there was a lovely reprisal piece pointing out the sleazy sexual history of several of the Daily Telegraph staff and suggesting that their moral authority in this matter was more than a little bit suspect.

But these journos weren't presenting themselves as alternative premieres, were they?

AR

Spiny Norman
01-09-2005, 03:05 PM
But these journos weren't presenting themselves as alternative premieres, were they?
No, they're just judge, jury and executioner ...

Kevin Bonham
01-09-2005, 04:17 PM
But these journos weren't presenting themselves as alternative premieres, were they?

AR

Does it really matter?

I'm a bit confused about where you're coming from on this given that you're one of the top three or so on this forum when it comes to comments about women that could be seen as tacky/sexist. Are you saying:

(i) that what he did (the sexual harassment stuff, not the MOB comment) was fine and his only problem is that he can't deal with having done it?
(ii) that what he did was fine for anyone else but stupid given his position and the circumstances?
(iii) that what he did was outright unacceptable?

If sleazy behaviour by politicians is in the public interest, then why not sleazy behaviour by journos as well? For instance, if too many journos are sleazy then this could result in some women being disinclined to work in the field, with an impact on the media's ability to report gender issues accurately.

antichrist
01-09-2005, 04:24 PM
no - female ineptitude. According to the statistics, fewer males attampt suicide, but they are more succesful at it.

So will we call it a draw? Terrible to be so callice about this but about an equal number of males and females probably die, but I imagine there would be more of the walking wounded unsuccessful females.

Away from joking I do feel for sorry for them because that is terrible life, but not for Brodgen, I agree with AR. He felt okay to always put the boot in when he felt like it and he crumbles in a stew of his own making. Why didn't he just become a born-again or something - they are full of such cases.

arosar
01-09-2005, 04:38 PM
Are you saying:

I thought he was being stupid for dropping his guard like that given that he was the alternative premiere. As a regular bloke, of course I could understand his situation. But he ain't no regular bloke. So you see, I am saying he has only himself to blame and was too much of a wimp an inexperienced to face up to the pressure. I mean, did Clinton kill himself or attempt to amidst all that blowjob controversy? No!

AR

Kevin Bonham
01-09-2005, 05:03 PM
I thought he was being stupid for dropping his guard like that given that he was the alternative premiere. As a regular bloke, of course I could understand his situation. But he ain't no regular bloke. So you see, I am saying he has only himself to blame and was too much of a wimp an inexperienced to face up to the pressure. I mean, did Clinton kill himself or attempt to amidst all that blowjob controversy? No!

AR

In that case you're saying his behaviour was tactically stupid but otherwise would have been acceptable. However in that case, it only becomes tactically stupid because the media make it so by being willing to publish the details. So why not take the same position as Matt, ie that the media should just butt out of it? (NB this is not my position.)

As for Clinton, I don't think Clinton not doing the same thing necessarily proves Clinton was stronger mentally in dealing with the scandal when it broke. It may just have proved that he was shameless.

antichrist
01-09-2005, 05:03 PM
I thought he was being stupid for dropping his guard like that given that he was the alternative premiere. As a regular bloke, of course I could understand his situation. But he ain't no regular bloke. So you see, I am saying he has only himself to blame and was too much of a wimp an inexperienced to face up to the pressure. I mean, did Clinton kill himself or attempt to amidst all that blowjob controversy? No!

AR

The difference was who it was coming from. Clinton, for all his soft spots, was genuine on anti-racism and probably on women issues so that even progressive liberal women stood up for him (and he for them?).

Clintons mistake was human nature basically, whereas Brodgen's was trying to put down women, who, if they are mail-order-brides can be real heroes and martyrs for their desparate families overseas. The difference between small dried salted fish every meal or decent food, education, medicine and home for the whole family.

antichrist
01-09-2005, 06:32 PM
No one, including myself, has been game to cast asperations on AR's linage.

PHAT
01-09-2005, 07:57 PM
So many issues!!!!!

1. Something that everyone, here and in the press have missed is, that the jibe was directed at Bob Carr. MOB jibe was neither racists or sexist :uhoh:

We all know that MOBs have a very good and understandable reason to become MOBs. I for one have no problem at all with their choice to marry out of proverty. The only suspect party is the orderer - the husband. Everyone there knew Carr's wife was not in actuality a MOB, so the jibe was really a slur at Bob Carrs marriability - ie he is an ugly boring turd.

The fools that have not taken this possibility, nay, probable explanation ought to be killed by their own hand.

2. A bloke who sleezes around is not that unusual. While it is not my MO, it is his right to sleeze if it his his choice. To those who say it is unacceptable, I say you are mostly wrong. Sleezing is not a criminal offence, hence, as a society we do actually accept it. As individuals we frown on it and offen tell the sleeze to FO.

3. Brogden attempts suicide. There are three possible reasons people do this.
*Clinical depression - there can only be sympathy for them.
*Weakness in the face of adversity - there can be no sympathy for the displayed weakness, BUT, our humanity must aways be to have sympathy for the weak.
*A cry for help. How can anyone not respond to a cry for help.

To those of you who are putting the boot into Brogden, you are astoundingly cruel. :thumdown:

firegoat7
01-09-2005, 08:32 PM
I also believe that whether a politician's statements are accurate or not is important. It is one thing to engage in personal vilification based on something that is true but irrelevant, and quite a worse thing to do so when the claims being made are not even true.

It seems like you are assuming the answer in concluding the above.

Like I said before your a-social nature prevents you from seeing the bleeding obvious. It makes no difference whether his statement is true or not. In fact its probably just a reflection of your self contained academic biases.
The question you should ask yourself is why would he want to make such a statement? The Australian media at least have the sense to out this particular form of stupidity.

Blind Freddy can see why he made such a statement, but maybe the Anglo stereotype of White Tasmania is having a hard time with the view. :doh:

Cheers Fg7

Kevin Bonham
01-09-2005, 11:52 PM
It makes no difference whether his statement is true or not. In fact its probably just a reflection of your self contained academic biases.

When a person runs for public office what they do is make promises about what they will do if elected. Some of them are more inclined to try their promises than others. Knowing whether a politician is honest about virtually anything could be relevant to deciding whether they are the sort of person one should consider trusting to implement their stated policy. If a politician's not above lying to smear a rival in private, they're probably not above excessive carelessness with the truth for the sake of winning votes. (And no, not all politicians lie habitually; some are worse than others.)

Of course, as a person content to falsely call someone else "a-social" (an unprovoked return to your habit of mindless insults) largely because of your bigoted inability to contend with them having a few different philosophies, I would not expect you to care about truthfulness or whether anyone else cared about it. You seem to subscribe to the view common among impractical leftist extremists that the bigger the fib the better - only you are not fooling anyone here except yourself. :clap:


The question you should ask yourself is why would he want to make such a statement? The Australian media at least have the sense to out this particular form of stupidity.

Blind Freddy can see why he made such a statement, but maybe the Anglo stereotype of White Tasmania is having a hard time with the view. :doh:

I've already explained this - for me to know why he made the statement (rather than jumping to ill-informed conclusions about why he made it) I first wanted to know if it was true.

I'm also puzzled about Matthew's position on this. Matthew is normally the ardent defender of parental duty and here he is making excuses for a married guy with kids who goes around sleazing onto women. (It's not quite clear whether or not Brogden's efforts quite fell into the domain of sexual harassment - if they did his "society accepts it" defence looks a little bit shaky.)

I'd also propose that we have a poll here where a picture of Bob Carr is posted next to an age-adjusted picture of Matthew Sweeney (or even a non-age-adjusted one) and the women of this site vote on which they find more attractive. :lol:

As for the whole MOB thing, I'd never do it (even if I was inclined to marry) - I just find the whole idea way too artificial. But I don't have any real issue with others choosing to do it - from either side of the equation.

antichrist
02-09-2005, 01:40 AM
KB
....As for the whole MOB thing, I'd never do it (even if I was inclined to marry) - I just find the whole idea way too artificial. But I don't have any real issue with others choosing to do it - from either side of the equation....
__________________

But what astonishes me with some of the cases is how they will stay together for decades in spite of them only meeting for a few weeks beforehand and maybe being separated for a year before meeting again in Aussie.

Yet other all-Aussie true blue marriages, where they have known each other for maybe over a year beforehand, and of same culture, yet don't last the distance.

Kevin Bonham
02-09-2005, 02:45 AM
But what astonishes me with some of the cases is how they will stay together for decades in spite of them only meeting for a few weeks beforehand and maybe being separated for a year before meeting again in Aussie.

Yet other all-Aussie true blue marriages, where they have known each other for maybe over a year beforehand, and of same culture, yet don't last the distance.

I've seen the same point made in relation to arranged marriages - there's a suggestion that a lack of specifically high expectations can also lead to greater stability. I'm not sure if that's true or if it's more a reflection of the types of personalities (and/or cultural backgrounds) that go in for this sort of thing.

I'm assuming Matt's comments about marrying out of poverty (suggesting that men only choose MOBs if they can't get a bride any other way) are just stereotypes that may be true in some cases but need not hold for all.

First one to quote Bobby Fischer on this subject is a raving misogynist. :lol:

arosar
02-09-2005, 07:06 AM
But what astonishes me with some of the cases is how they will stay together for decades in spite of them only meeting for a few weeks beforehand and maybe being separated for a year before meeting again in Aussie.

Same as arranged marriages.

About a month ago, an Indian mate of mine went back to the homeland for a bit of a holiday. Little did he know that his parents had something in store for him. Within 1 week of landing, he was engaged! And by the time he returned to Australia he was a married man. Poor bloke!

AR

firegoat7
02-09-2005, 11:55 AM
When a person runs for public office what they do is make promises about what they will do if elected. Some of them are more inclined to try their promises than others. Knowing whether a politician is honest about virtually anything could be relevant to deciding whether they are the sort of person one should consider trusting to implement their stated policy. If a politician's not above lying to smear a rival in private, they're probably not above excessive carelessness with the truth for the sake of winning votes. (And no, not all politicians lie habitually; some are worse than others.)

Irrelevent and about as interesting as Tasmanian chess.

What you fail to perceive is that the media "outed' the guy because he was incredibly stupid, not because it gave a toss about whether his ignorant comments were true or false. For the third and last time, nobody actually cares if they were true or false. People care about the idiocy behind the motivation of such stupid claims.



Of course, as a person content to falsely call someone else "a-social" (an unprovoked return to your habit of mindless insults) largely because of your bigoted inability to contend with them having a few different philosophies, I would not expect you to care about truthfulness or whether anyone else cared about it. You seem to subscribe to the view common among impractical leftist extremists that the bigger the fib the better - only you are not fooling anyone here except yourself. :clap:



I have no problem with calling you anti-social, not that this is so unusual in modern society. Your behaviour on the bulletin board has demonstrated time and time again that these claims are closer to truth then falsehood. You can protest as much as you like, but as I have stated before, most people instantly understand why the media went on the attack over the comments. That is because comments such as this are unacceptable from our leaders in modern pluralistic societies.

You may want to stare at your naval and mediatate on the truth of Brogdens claims, but most people are simply not interested in the academic wank of such behaviour. Most people have the common sense (yourself excluded of course) to instantly recognise that his comments were scandalous, dividing and not the sort of comments appropriate for an elected leader of people. The media paid no attention to the truth of his claims because it is not interested in such stupidity. Clearly you are interested.






I've already explained this - for me to know why he made the statement (rather than jumping to ill-informed conclusions about why he made it) I first wanted to know if it was true.

your an idiot!

cheers fg7

arosar
02-09-2005, 12:18 PM
So why not take the same position as Matt, ie that the media should just butt out of it?

But why should the media butt out of it? And no, it was not 'tactically stupid' because the media made it so. Why blame the media? Don't get me wrong, I did find Cumming's piece in the SMH a bit insincere. But let's not be so naive, Cumming, as a journo has her own agenda (as did also The Tele) and we accept this.

Brogden played the game and he ought to have known the rules better. He got caught out. That was that.

AR

antichrist
02-09-2005, 01:11 PM
Same as arranged marriages.

About a month ago, an Indian mate of mine went back to the homeland for a bit of a holiday. Little did he know that his parents had something in store for him. Within 1 week of landing, he was engaged! And by the time he returned to Australia he was a married man. Poor bloke!

AR

Warning: inane prattle

Every year some of the cousins in OZ go to the village in Lebo and "harvest" the young lasses to be their wives. Under the wedding gown at the altar one girl had her father's dagger hard into her back. But once in Aussie she claimed she had "held out" and had marriaged annulled for lack of consumption. The guy was a bit of a roughie.

Now you go back to topic

bergil
02-09-2005, 01:32 PM
But why should the media butt out of it? And no, it was not 'tactically stupid' because the media made it so. Why blame the media? Don't get me wrong, I did find Cumming's piece in the SMH a bit insincere. But let's not be so naive, Cumming, as a journo has her own agenda (as did also The Tele) and we accept this.

Brogden played the game and he ought to have known the rules better. He got caught out. That was that.

AR
He wasn't caught out, he was sold out by the far right of the liberal party. This story was known by jurno's weeks before yet they sat on it.

Kevin Bonham
02-09-2005, 02:49 PM
What you fail to perceive is that the media "outed' the guy because he was incredibly stupid, not because it gave a toss about whether his ignorant comments were true or false. For the third and last time, nobody actually cares if they were true or false. People care about the idiocy behind the motivation of such stupid claims.

Well obviously I cared if they were true or false, so your statement is rubbish. And I also care about the idiocy motivating the statement, because while it was clearly idiotic, I need to know whether it is true or not to know in what way. Unlike you, I actually do perceive why the media outed the guy - namely, that the media are trying to make money and stories of this kind is a way for them to do it. The media do not out people just because they are incredibly stupid, as demonstrated by cases where media agencies have failed to report on stupidities within their own ranks that were picked up by other outlets.


I have no problem with calling you anti-social, not that this is so unusual in modern society. Your behaviour on the bulletin board has demonstrated time and time again that these claims are closer to truth then falsehood.

No, because those behaviours were in response to people behaving in a rather antisocial fashion themselves, typically utterly without provocation.


Most people have the common sense (yourself excluded of course) to instantly recognise that his comments were scandalous, dividing and not the sort of comments appropriate for an elected leader of people.

I recognise this too but whether they are the sort of thing someone should resign over is another matter. I would say that if his comment had been true then it would have been poor form but probably not a resigning issue. An apology would have been sufficient.


your an idiot!

Is this your idea of being social or sociable? Goose.

Kevin Bonham
02-09-2005, 03:36 PM
But why should the media butt out of it? And no, it was not 'tactically stupid' because the media made it so.

But if the media had not reported it then it would not have affected his electability and therefore would not have been "tactically stupid".

PHAT
02-09-2005, 11:33 PM
I'm also puzzled about Matthew's position on this. Matthew is normally the ardent defender of parental duty and here he is making excuses for a married guy with kids who goes around sleazing onto women.

Kevin, nicely picked up!

I am defending Brogden's human right to be a human Brogden in private. As for his sleazing, he deserves to have his wife do him painful physical damage. And if he continues to sleaze, do him financial damage too.

PHAT
02-09-2005, 11:42 PM
I'd also propose that we have a poll here where a picture of Bob Carr is posted next to an age-adjusted picture of Matthew Sweeney (or even a non-age-adjusted one) and the women of this site vote on which they find more attractive. :lol:

No contest. We have all seen pictures of Carr. Imagine that face even more contorted in the throws of orgasm. It would make a gargoil look like a cherub. Me? No doubt every female here looks at my posts and sees the professional photograph by "Glamour Shot" on the top left hand side. Ther no doubt gaze upon it and say, next to Matt, Brad Pitt is Sad Shit.

PHAT
02-09-2005, 11:50 PM
Brogden played the game and he ought to have known the rules better. He got caught out. That was that.

AR

Do you know the joke that ends with the punch line "Yes I did all those great things, but f... one sheep."

PHAT
02-09-2005, 11:56 PM
He wasn't caught out, he was sold out by the far right of the liberal party. This story was known by jurno's weeks before yet they sat on it.

The Tele sat on it. BUT as soon as another paper broke it, the Tele sent in the attack dogs. Brogden was already gone, resigning , and the Tele THEN pulled out all the other dirty linen they had. Unnecesary, and disgraceful journalism.

PHAT
03-09-2005, 12:04 AM
Well obviously I cared if they were true or false ... And I also care about the idiocy motivating the statement, because while it was clearly idiotic, ...

No it was not "clearly" idiotic. It was a savage joke/slag-off at Bob Carr's expense, amoung drinking colleges - mates and journos. It should never have be printed.

PHAT
03-09-2005, 02:06 AM
Point of view: Cricky (http://www.crikey.com.au/articles/2005/09/01-1706-5658.html)

ursogr8
04-09-2005, 08:28 PM
One old woman I know said of all this, "What is wrong with these women? For heavens sake, a man gets drunk does some silly things and they want him to lose his career."

I tend to agree. Private time jokes and normal male behaviour should not form part of the way we determine who runs government. I would love to see those women's "behaviours" plastered all over the front page.

^^^^ NSW politics

Wheras below, we have MS's view on a guy who did not even ask to be a role model.



<snip>

Waaarrrrnie. Bastard. How can he sleep at night with his wife's decade of public humiliations over his appauling phillanderaing. I say, he can sleep on water bed of his children's tears. Bastard.



Waarrrrrrrnie? A piece of crap. I voted that she get the lot.



Cricket needs less Shaaaaane Waaaaarrrrne


Looks to me that the man who stood for high office gets exposed by the media, and then the media than has a bad case of ethicitis about their behaviour in 'outing' the guy.
But Warney, who stood for nothing (save the Aus. captaincy I suppose) gets pummeled in the media, and by the the Gorilla from the GONG, and few question his 'outing.

I think the ball has gone Irish, with reverse swing.

starter

PHAT
04-09-2005, 11:10 PM
^^^^ NSW politics

Wheras below, we have MS's view on a guy who did not even ask to be a role model.





Looks to me that the man who stood for high office gets exposed by the media, and then the media than has a bad case of ethicitis about their behaviour in 'outing' the guy.
But Warney, who stood for nothing (save the Aus. captaincy I suppose) gets pummeled in the media, and by the the Gorilla from the GONG, and few question his 'outing.


Yes they are different rulings by yours truely. Reasons:

Warne philanders over and over again. Smokes when he wasn't supposed to. Takes money from bookies. Uses banned substances. Loud and uncooth on camera. And then philanders some more - so much so that his wife has dumped the deadshit.

Brogden did some crass flirting and made a lame joke when drunk, about Bob Carr's ability to pull a root.

It is a matter of degree, starter. It's the difference between taxing a few pens from work for home, and pinching the laser colour photocopier and flogging it down the boozer.

ursogr8
05-09-2005, 01:53 PM
Yes they are different rulings by yours truely. Reasons:

Warne philanders over and over again. Smokes when he wasn't supposed to. Takes money from bookies. Uses banned substances. Loud and uncooth on camera. And then philanders some more - so much so that his wife has dumped the deadshit.

Brogden did some crass flirting and made a lame joke when drunk, about Bob Carr's ability to pull a root.

It is a matter of degree, starter. It's the difference between taxing a few pens from work for home, and pinching the laser colour photocopier and flogging it down the boozer.

I will be storing your response in my files, Sweeney. :uhoh:
Basically it is the number of pecadillos that counts; according to you. No line in the sand at all...just be a serial offender and it is OK for the Press to out someone, according to you. At least one believable part to your argument though..........it is metric-based. :cool:

Granted Warney is culpable on the charges of 'slimming tablets' and dropping too many cigarette butts. But I am not sure it is proven he smokes in bed. ;)

starter

PHAT
05-09-2005, 10:24 PM
Basically it is the number of pecadillos that counts; according to you. No line in the sand at all...just be a serial offender and it is OK for the Press to out someone, according to you.

Both number and type count. For example, if Brogden smokes a reefer it is a lot less serious than if it were the Chief of Police. A publically avowed "family man" politician seen at a beat is much worse than Justice Kirby getting some rough trade.

Kevin Bonham
05-09-2005, 10:33 PM
Kevin, nicely picked up!

I am defending Brogden's human right to be a human Brogden in private. As for his sleazing, he deserves to have his wife do him painful physical damage. And if he continues to sleaze, do him financial damage too.

Fair enough. Nicely defended. :clap:

At least this whole sorry saga has produced embarrassment to Tony Abbott. Suffering for Abbott is the only thing I care about in Australian politics anymore.

well, slight exaggeration there

PHAT
05-09-2005, 11:19 PM
Suffering for Abbott is the only thing I care about in Australian politics anymore.

Abbott is the funniest thing since Costello.

At the opening of an indiginous health centre this Minister for Health asked one of the speakers "What is gonorrhea?" :doh: :lol:

antichrist
06-09-2005, 07:26 AM
Abbott is the funniest thing since Costello.

At the opening of an indiginous health centre this Minister for Health asked one of the speakers "What is gonorrhea?" :doh: :lol:

And we know in his youth he did not uses condoms - how bizarre - but good RCC girls don't have such little nasties - they leave it much too late - to Jewish Billy Joel's frustration.

Kevin Bonham
08-09-2005, 03:02 PM
Note that the Tele's story has now been exposed as a probable beatup (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1453097.htm).

I wonder how the fact that some of the claims were probably false affects AR's and firegoat's view that the suicide attempt was an act of weakness.

bergil
08-09-2005, 04:00 PM
Note that the Tele's story has now been exposed as a probable beatup (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1453097.htm).

I wonder how the fact that some of the claims were probably false affects AR's and firegoat's view that the suicide attempt was an act of weakness.
When will the people of Sydney wake up to this rag and stop buying it, not that the herald's standard hasn't slip but to continue buying the Tele is to do yourself a diservice by limiting your mental capacity.

arosar
08-09-2005, 05:24 PM
Note that the Tele's story has now been exposed as a probable beatup (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1453097.htm).

I wonder how the fact that some of the claims were probably false affects AR's and firegoat's view that the suicide attempt was an act of weakness.

Well no, it doesn't. The truth or falsehood of the paper's claims are immaterial to the fact that Brogden simply couldn't hack it.

AR

PHAT
08-09-2005, 07:59 PM
Well no, it doesn't. The truth or falsehood of the paper's claims are immaterial to the fact that Brogden simply couldn't hack it.

AR

How would a high profile blogger react to unsubstaniated sex crime alegations throughout the community that were simple not true. :hmm:

I know I would be murderous :evil: Brogden was suicidal. :(

Kevin Bonham
08-09-2005, 10:27 PM
Well no, it doesn't. The truth or falsehood of the paper's claims are immaterial to the fact that Brogden simply couldn't hack it.

At the very least, the apparent falsehood of them changes what the "it" is that he (momentarily?) couldn't hack.

four four two
14-09-2005, 02:06 AM
Matt,Bob Carr didnt seem to think the comments made about his wife were falsely made,seeing as they were leaked to the Telegraph by liberal insiders... :hmm: