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Thunderspirit
29-06-2005, 01:41 PM
In conjunction with the Australian masters there will be two junior events as wll. The Vic Junior Masters is a 10 FIDE Rated Round Robin including a New Zealand entry.

Players aren't quite confirmed, more details will be posted later in the week.

The other side event, the Junior Reserves is taking place at Benleigh this week. There are 8 players. The first round was yesterday. Here are the results from the first Round. I will put some games up soon.

Round 1

Jamie Kenmure 1154- Huw Roberts 1-0
Rhys Hopkins- Sean Hyatt 1-0
Arron Rusnak- David Toper-715
Dennish Qian 752- Matthew Bradshaw 1-0

16) Rusnak,A - Toper,D (715) [D00] Reserves (1), 28.06.2005
1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bb4 5.Bd2 0–0 6.Bb5 a6 7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.a3 Bd6 9.0–0 e5 10.e4 exd4 11.Nxd5 Nxd5 12.exd5 Nf6 13.Nxd4 Nxd5 14.c4 Nf4 15.Bxf4 Bxf4 16.Re1 Qxd4?? 17.Re4?? Qd6 18.c5 Bxh2+ 19.Kf1 Qxc5 20.Rc4 Qg5 21.Rxc7 Bxc7 22.g3 Re8 23.Rc1 Bh3+ 24.Kg1 Bxg3 25.fxg3 Qxg3+ 26.Kh1 Qg2# 0–1

Leonid Sandler
01-07-2005, 02:36 PM
Victorian Junior Masters Chess tournament 2005 just completed with exciting play-offs.At the end of the tournament 2 players Jamie Kenmure and Rhys Hopkins scored 6.5/7 and in a very tense play off 12 year old Rhys, son of a strong victorian player Alex Hopkins beat top seed 18 year old Jamie Kenmure who was the most improved player of Australia in the latest ratings list.The final score of the rapid play-off 3-1.The winner qualified for the Victorian Junior Masters 2006 Premier Division.There were 2 players tied for 3rd place with 4/7 (David Toper and Dennish Qian) and 9 year old David Toper won the play off 2.5-1.5.Here are the final standings of the tournament
1.Rhys Hopkins 6.5
2.Jamie Kenmure 6.5
3.David Toper 4
4.Dennish Qian 4
5-6.Matthew Bradshaw and Sean Hyatt 3 points each
7-8.Aaron Rusnak and Huw Roberts 0.5 points each
Next week at Melbourne Chess Club the Victorian Junior Masters Premier event will start.The following 10 players will play for a place in the Victorian Masters in 2006. The players are: Dusan Stojic (ACF 1999 FIDE 2033)
Jesse Jager (ACF 1919 FIDE 1947) Svetozar Stojic (ACF 1818 FIDE 1981)
Gino Thornton (New Zealand FIDE 2041) Nicholas Dour ( ACF 1712) Artem Nikolayevsky (ACF 1581) James Morris (ACF 1571) Derek Yu (ACF 1487) Eugene Schon (ACF 1444) Alastair Dyer (Tasmania ACF 1052). The tournament will be submitted for FIDE rating.

Leonid Sandler
05-07-2005, 08:56 PM
Victorian Junior masters tournament started today in Melbourne chess club.
Here are the results from the first three rounds.
Round one

Svetozar Stojic-Dusan Stojic 0,5-0,5
Derek Yu-Jessi Jager 0,5-0,5
James Morris-Gino Thornton 0-1
Nick Dour-Artem Nikolaevsky 1-0
Alastair Dyer-Eugene Schon 0-1
Round two
Dusan Stojic-Jessi Jager 0-1
Svetozar Stojic-Gino Thornton 0,5-0,5
Derek Yu-Artem Nikolaevky 0-1
James Morris-Eugene Schon 1-0
Nick Dour-Alistair Dyer1-0

Round three
Derek Yu-Dusan Stojic 0-1
James Morris-Svetozar Stojic 0-1
Nick Dour-Jessi Jager 0-1
Alistair Dyer-Gino Thonton 0-1
Eugene Schon-Artem Nikolaevsky 1-0

Standings after three rounds:
J.Jager and G.Thornton 2,5 points each,S.Stojic,N.Dour,E.Schon 2 points each,D.Stojic 1,5,A.Nikolaevsky,J.Morris one point each,D.Yu 0,5 and A.Dyer is yet to score.
Tomorrow rounds will be played @9-30am and 12-30 pm.

toyboy
06-07-2005, 01:25 AM
???quick question???

i heard the time control for this event in 60min + 10sec/move. so that equals a total time of 70min per player for 60 moves.

now the four fide rated players are over 1600 fide rating. all in the 1900-2100 range.

that being the case i thought the player need to have a minimum of 90min per game (assuming game goes for 60 moves) (b.02.1.12). since in this event they only seem to have 70min, can this tournament be legitimately submitted for fide rating?

hope this is wrong as i think one of the main purposes of this tournament was to provide fide rating opportunities to some of the juniors involved.

Bereaved
06-07-2005, 01:37 AM
That sounds a bit like I remember, Toyboy, i'll go have a look at the site,

ok now, the site is http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp

Seems to be correct; hope the organizers are not doing a shifty...How much did it cost people to play in the event?

All the best, God Bless Macavity

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 04:47 PM
Man this is a load of shit. sorry for my out rage. But i did spend 450$ on air ticket. For what i thought i read correctly was a fide rated tournament.

Also...On the entry from it claims coaching will be available from chess elite group. With players such as Chris Despaqule, IM soskirna (the Chick), and leonid sandler. Ive received none of these.

Also bulletins from the Victorian masters. I have recevied none of these either.

I also heard from leonard the winner gets 1 book. where it says on the entry form prizes worth up to 150$. so thats like 4-5 books. So i payed a total of

125$ entry fee,
450$ ticket
350 spending money etc.

925$. For what..a load of shi#. Sorry for my words.

I dont want to feel like a complainer. But i feel ripped off. I also feel for that tazie kid who came all this way. Malcom i hope somthing shifty is going on for the sake of kids and the parents in this tournament.

What you guys think?

arosar
06-07-2005, 05:13 PM
Sue the bastards.

AR

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 05:18 PM
Man this is a load of shit. sorry for my out rage. But i did spend 450$ on air ticket. For what i thought i read correctly was a fide rated tournament.

Also...On the entry from it claims coaching will be available from chess elite group. With players such as Chris Despaqule, IM soskirna (the Chick), and leonid sandler. Ive received none of these.

Also bulletins from the Victorian masters. I have recevied none of these either.

I also heard from leonard the winner gets 1 book. where it says on the entry form prizes worth up to 150$. so thats like 4-5 books. So i payed a total of

125$ entry fee,
450$ ticket
350 spending money etc.

925$. For what..a load of shi#. Sorry for my words.

I dont want to feel like a complainer. But i feel ripped off. I also feel for that tazie kid who came all this way. Malcom i hope somthing shifty is going on for the sake of kids and the parents in this tournament.

What you guys think?


If all this is correct, I would be demanding my money back, starting with the entry fee. No one has challenged the fide rating regulations stated, so I think it is fair that they are correctly quoted by toyboy. That means this tournament has been claimed it will be fide rated, but wont be.

That means the $125 entry fee is scandalous for what, about 7 rounds of 60/10 or so. What a joke.

I wont be commenting any further because I believe that I will be legally threatened again. :wall:

toyboy
06-07-2005, 05:29 PM
would be good if one of the organisers (or their cohorts) would comment on this.

i think all players have a case for at least part of their entry fee to be returned if the tourny is indeed ineligible for fide rating. i am sure this is simply a case of administrative bungling. however all players are out of pocket and in Gino and Alistair cases, this is substantially beyond the entry fee alone.

Alan Shore
06-07-2005, 05:58 PM
Indeed. If the entry forms explicitly state what the prizes/terms/conditions will be in exchange for the entry fee and these things are not delivered, that is the violation of a contract.

There have been a few tournaments I know of that have lost up to $1000 due to circumstances such as insufficient entries but they have coughed up. What makes the organisers of this tournament think they don't have to deliver on what was promised? It is a joke, and not an amusing one.

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Yeh like they would actully give me my money back.

i just better concentrate on winning this tournament. im on 4.5/5. But still got jager,dusan stojic,nic dour.

And if what was advertised doesnt seem to be the case...well thats australia for you. i defeintly wont be back. Sorry guys dont mean that as anything personal.

Melbourne is lovely. Sees like this friday night is the only thing worth looking forward 2.

lol one more thing....the first place trophy is badly scratched. on the top like a chip out of the wood is missing.

Bill Gletsos
06-07-2005, 06:19 PM
FIDE rating regulation B.02..1.12 is totally relevant. As such if the time limit of the event is 60mins + 10sec per move from move 1 it is ineligible for FIDE rating.

arosar
06-07-2005, 06:19 PM
lol one more thing....the first place trophy is badly scratched. on the top like a chip out of the wood is missing.

FMD! That's embarassing...

Look, if it makes you feel better, this here entire BB will now support you and your efforts. We pray you kick butt for the rest of the tournament. Then when you accept your crap trophy you can then vent your anger and embarass the whole lot of them even more.

AR

arosar
06-07-2005, 06:20 PM
FIDE rating regulation B.02..1.12 is totally relevant. As such if the time limit of the event is 60mins + 10sec per move from move 1 it is ineligible for FIDE rating.

Good on ya Bill.

What about the other issue mate? You got any answers for that?

AR

Bill Gletsos
06-07-2005, 06:21 PM
Good on ya Bill.

What about the other issue mate? You got any answers for that?Take it up with him yourself. :hand:

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 06:24 PM
would be good if one of the organisers (or their cohorts) would comment on this.

i think all players have a case for at least part of their entry fee to be returned if the tourny is indeed ineligible for fide rating. i am sure this is simply a case of administrative bungling. however all players are out of pocket and in Gino and Alistair cases, this is substantially beyond the entry fee alone.
This is unlikely to happen. I would be highly surprised if we hear any comments from the organisers on these matters.


Yes Gilligan... Chris organising it. At least he'll do it right... This quote comes from the Australian Masters thread, but still :uhoh: :doh: :hmm:

arosar
06-07-2005, 06:24 PM
Take it up with him yourself. :hand:

Oh look, you're such a girl man. Raising that hand at me and you look like Paris Hilton.

Alrighty, I talk to your mate Dr Z.

AR

arosar
06-07-2005, 06:26 PM
This is unlikely to happen. I would be highly surprised if we hear any comments from the organisers on these matters.

Bugger! They haven't bloody got you in their ranks. You were always so reliable mate.

Just kidding OK gray. Give us a *hug*.

(I got some interesting feedback about you actually gray. Man, I can't wait to meet you).

AR

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 06:29 PM
I hope i can win the tournament eh guys.

Lets be serious.

Somone failed to actully check what looked like a dodgie time control anyway.

As for the prize fund etc..we will just have to see on the day.

LOL today this guy offerd me a draw. He was like so loud "Draw" puts out his hand. Then instead of accepting i said.yeh hold on mate. Let me see what i can pull out of this drawish postion (lol), Sac comes in, mate to follow. poor kid. :)

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 06:31 PM
Bugger! They haven't bloody got you in their ranks. Something I am eternally grateful for.


(I got some interesting feedback about you actually gray. Man, I can't wait to meet you).

Speaking of which, I am thinking of going somewhere to see some city. Might be Sydney, could be perth, who knows. I was thinking of the Rose Bay tourney at the end of the month, but I dont think that will be happening. October tourney at Ryde Eastwood would have been a chance, but I read from last year that it is only 60/10 :( , not 90/30 over three days. If it was 90/30 over three days and the trains were running to Ryde, I would almost be a certainty to come.

Bill Gletsos
06-07-2005, 06:33 PM
Oh look, you're such a girl man. Raising that hand at me and you look like Paris Hilton.Too bad I dont have her money or owned the Hilton Hotel Group otherwise perhaps chess tournamnts could be arranged at the Sydney Hilton. ;)

Alrighty, I talk to your mate Dr Z.You do that.

arosar
06-07-2005, 06:37 PM
LOL today this guy offerd me a draw. He was like so loud "Draw" puts out his hand. Then instead of accepting i said.yeh hold on mate. Let me see what i can pull out of this drawish postion (lol), Sac comes in, mate to follow. poor kid. :)

Yeah I fkn seen you done that before too eh. At the Congress eh.

You still talk crap OTB, do you? (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=1112&page=5&pp=15)

AR

Bill Gletsos
06-07-2005, 06:38 PM
I read from last year that it is only 60/10 :( , not 90/30 over three days. If it was 90/30 over three days and the trains were running to Ryde, I would almost be a certainty to come.After going from 90/30 in 2003 to 60/10 in 2004 the entries increased from 54 to 71
This is no doubt due to the fact that the event clashes with the Rugby League Grand Final. By having it as 60/10 we have a total of 7 rounds over 3 days and still have an early finish on the Sunday night so players can attend or watch the Grand Final.

Bill Gletsos
06-07-2005, 06:47 PM
With 10 people paying $125 each in entry fees thats $1250 in income for the event.

As for expenses what rent are they paying MCC for use of the premises.
How much are they paying the DOP.
Also can someone provide the list of prizes offered and their dollar equivalents where they are not cash prizes.

BTW although it does not apply to this event as it isnt eligible to be FIDE rated, the cost of FIDE rating an event is I believe around 100 swiss francs.

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 06:59 PM
prizes 1st to 3rd trophy. prolly 10 bucks each

First prise $150 worth in prizes. Chirs despaqule told me that they are paying 1000$ to leonard for arbiting. which i dont believe but could be.

i think they said 400$ to hire the room.

fide rated so 100 swiss francs. whish is like what aus 150/10 1$. Man i dont know.

But that dude was right 125 for 9 60/10 seems rather steep.

Gino

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 07:05 PM
But that dude was right 125 for 9 60/10 seems rather steep.

Gino
I will assume that dude is me. Part of my concern was that the costs arent going to change for room hire, prizes etc whatever time control you run the tournament at. Therefore I am trying to work out why it is being run at 60/10 when all the players in the tournament are experienced tournament players, therefore they would be well versed in playing long time control chess.

2 rounds a day of 90/30 would not be too difficult i think with one rest day in the middle.

Bill Gletsos
06-07-2005, 07:10 PM
Chirs despaqule told me that they are paying 1000$ to leonard for arbiting. which i dont believe but could be.I also find that hard to believe as on the surface it seems very excessive. I would have thought around $100 per day as an arbiter fee would be reasonable.
How many days is the event and how many rounds per day.

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 07:13 PM
tuesday to friday

tue 9:30 - 5 3 rounds
wed 9:30-2:30 2 rounds
thu 9:30 -5 3 rounds
Friday 9:30 prolly end 12. everything. 1 round

Hmmm.... 9 rounds

toyboy
06-07-2005, 07:20 PM
U also find that hard to believe as on the surface it seems very excessive. I would have thought around $100 per day as an arbiter fee would be reasonable.
How many days is the event and how many rounds per day.

not sure but 10 player round robin and they played 3 rounds on day 1. i assume they are looking at 4 playing days the first one of which was a long one.

if they opted fo 60min+30sec/move then they would have made the regulation 1.12 but may have had a little more trouble squeezing in 3 rounds on one day (but should still have been able to do it).

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 07:30 PM
orginally.

there were only 8 players 7 rounds etc.

Then they rose it up to 10. i think orignally it was like 1 game a day and two on one day. The started at 3:30.

Do you guys actully feel that 125$ is a bit steep.

NA but australia is awsome....eh good people. Good food. Good place..to be. ill prolly move here after im finshed at uni. Seems like if you live Down under and ur chess player. Melb or syndey seems the place to be. ill prolly miss the sheep though.

Amiel you mess...all i said to him was hold on. He stuck his hand out in my face thinking i would accept it. But i said hold on.

Libby
06-07-2005, 07:53 PM
prizes 1st to 3rd trophy. prolly 10 bucks each

First prise $150 worth in prizes. Chirs despaqule told me that they are paying 1000$ to leonard for arbiting. which i dont believe but could be.

i think they said 400$ to hire the room.

fide rated so 100 swiss francs. whish is like what aus 150/10 1$. Man i dont know.

But that dude was right 125 for 9 60/10 seems rather steep.

Gino

We pay $2000 for a year of use of the School Hall at a Canberra High School. We get a storeroom for our equipment, a foyer area suitable for analysis etc whilst games are played in the Hall (the foyer is large enough that we recently ran our 32 player U8s in it) and a kitchen with urn, fridge, microwave & pie warmer.

In fact, we chose to pay $2000 (and the school was extremely impressed with that amount) as they left it up to us to set a charge we considered reasonable and within our means.

We can use it any weekend, afternoon, evening or school holiday we like and they have also hosted our various school finals through the week. We just need to confirm our booking with them and the security firm first.

Isn't that something worth pursuing rather than paying rent or room hire all the time? Many schools are pretty open to the idea because of the vandalism issues with their premises being left vacant.

Sure, we don't have a "bar" and we do manage most catering with a pizza company (for $6 as much pizza as you want plus a soft drink costs us actually about $3 per child so makes a tidy profit as well).

Just an idea.

Pleasing to see, on the surface of things, - again - that when you pay people to do things it always makes this run better?

illuminatus555
06-07-2005, 08:25 PM
really sounds like a rip off, so let me get this straight, it says it's fide rated yet it's not. How ironic.

Well, gino, look on the bright side, you are currently ganning up the rest of the field.

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 08:53 PM
With 10 people paying $125 each in entry fees thats $1250 in income for the event.

As for expenses what rent are they paying MCC for use of the premises.
How much are they paying the DOP.
Also can someone provide the list of prizes offered and their dollar equivalents where they are not cash prizes.

BTW although it does not apply to this event as it isnt eligible to be FIDE rated, the cost of FIDE rating an event is I believe around 100 swiss francs.
also i believe the australian masters and lower age junior events are being run in conjunction with this event in question. So you can add the entry fee from the younger age events into the mix.

arosar
06-07-2005, 08:55 PM
really sounds like a rip off, so let me get this straight, it says it's fide rated yet it's not. How ironic.

Well, gino, look on the bright side, you are currently ganning up the rest of the field.

What is this? My room mates invading our little BB!! Wow. Good to see youse here boys.

AR

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 09:23 PM
Yeah shot stone.

so this is how i think it maybe

10 x 125 = $1250

arbiter doesnt get paid. Part of his salary.
Cost of hiring room. 200$ maybe.

trophy 10$ each x 3.

first prize.... up to 150$ worth of prizes. Eg...no money. Mean he takes books from the store he owns.

Eg cost him like maybe 70$

Looks like he just pocket 1000$.

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 09:32 PM
Yeah shot stone.

so this is how i think it maybe

10 x 125 = $1250

arbiter doesnt get paid. Part of his salary.
Cost of hiring room. 200$ maybe.

trophy 10$ each x 3.

first prize.... up to 150$ worth of prizes. Eg...no money. Mean he takes books from the store he owns.

Eg cost him like maybe 70$

Looks like he just pocket 1000$.


dont forget to include the other events being run inconjunction.

eclectic
06-07-2005, 09:36 PM
Yeah shot stone.

so this is how i think it maybe

10 x 125 = $1250

arbiter doesnt get paid. Part of his salary.
Cost of hiring room. 200$ maybe.

trophy 10$ each x 3.

first prize.... up to 150$ worth of prizes. Eg...no money. Mean he takes books from the store he owns.

Eg cost him like maybe 70$

Looks like he just pocket 1000$.

i can fully understand why he prefers to organise events as opposed to actually PLAYING in them!

:evil:

eclectic

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 09:38 PM
there was another event also on the reserve event for ours.

125$ for them 2. lol

man....well lucky david. your a rich man.

DoroPhil
06-07-2005, 09:41 PM
Why all this talk on the Internet? Why not say something face-to-face? Where's gray? Gray - come to Victoria and set those bastards straight!

Davidflude
06-07-2005, 09:47 PM
Good to see there are a few players from clubs other than Box Hill.

Extra good to see the Stojic brothers paired in round one.

Good to see some games up on net.

Now the questions.

Who organised this tournament?

Who is the Director of play?

Who approved the tournament conditions?

Shame there are no Sheilas playing.

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 09:48 PM
Why all this talk on the Internet? Why not say something face-to-face? Where's gray? Gray - come to Victoria and set those bastards straight!
interesting, you were one of my biggest critics on buller, now you want me to come to there and set ppl straight, how things change :eek: .

Something that no one has mentioned though, are these actually official cv events in terms of the junior events, or are they just depaq etc run events and have no official standing?

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 10:32 PM
Lets just wait and see what daivd has got to say. If nothing is accounted for or answerd before i leave. Ill be cross.

Garvinator
06-07-2005, 10:35 PM
Man i dont care anymore. You guys should though.
you should be the one that cares most. You are playing in the event because of the conditions advertised. We are aware of this sort of stuff already.

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 10:41 PM
sweet then. But i just dont care. If i care..then i start to feel sad. i dont want to tell my mum what happend. Not fide rated blah blah. She be pissed off at me. And blame me. Why didnt you check. You surely would of known blah blah. just move on. Go out on friday hit the clubs etc.

ursogr8
06-07-2005, 10:44 PM
<snip>

Something that no one has mentioned though, are these actually official cv events in terms of the junior events, or are they just depaq etc run events and have no official standing?

gg''

There are plenty of Mexicans wondering the same thing.

In post #24 Bill talks about rent being paid to MCC. That means it will not be a MCC event.
And if it was a CV event it would have been offered to an affiliated club (MCC or BHCC or DCC or WHJC or...); and hasn't been.
My guess is that makes it a privateer...and that is supported by the thread initiator's involvement.
The results will have official standing when they are submitted for rating and pay both the ratings fee and the penalty that is usually imposed for rating events run by non-affiliated organisation.

I leave the discussion on TITLEs for more courageous posters. :uhoh:
Anyone know where we can see a list of past VIC Junior Masters?

starter

arosar
06-07-2005, 10:59 PM
My guess is that makes it a privateer...and that is supported by the thread initiator's involvement.

That bloody thread starter has since disappeared. That's the problem with these normally noisy bastards. As soon as the questions get tougher, they just duck and weave and bloody disappear. Gutless pricks!

The entire Australian nation is being humiliated by these people. Crucify them.

AR

GinoTHEstud
06-07-2005, 11:13 PM
hmmmm

Leonid Sandler
06-07-2005, 11:40 PM
Here are today results
Round four
Dusan Stojic-Artem Nikolaevsky1-0
Svetozar Stojic-Nick Dour1-0
Derek Yu -James Morris 0-1
JessiJager-Alistair Dyer 1-0
Gino Thornton-Eugene Schon 1-0

Round five
James Morris-Dusan Stojic 0-1
Alistair Dyer-Svetozar Stojic 0-1
Nic Dour-Derek Yu 0,5-0,5
Eugene Schon-Jessi Jager 0-1
Artem Nikolaevsky-GinoThornton 0-1

Also one game was played from the last round :Eugene Schon-Nick Dour 0,5-0,5.Eugene is leaving for Adelaide University tournament on Friday and cannot play July 8th.
With four rounds to go the leaders are:Jessi Jager and Gino Thornton on 4,5 points each,Svetozar Stojic on 4 points and his brother Dusan on 3,5.
Tomorrow rounds will start @9-30am,12-30pm and 3-30pm.
The games to watch In round 6 :Dusan Stojic -Gino Thornton,
In round 7:Gino Thornton-Jessi Jager
Svetozar Stojic have got an easier run home (Eugene,Artem,Derek)

Bereaved
07-07-2005, 03:03 AM
Praise be to Cordless in his infinite wisdom, who has imported people from far and wide for a tournament. Shame on him for not making the true terms and conditions apparent. If we are going to build up any sort of a standing in the world chess community, alienating our closest neighbours, (NZ) hardly seems wise?

I offer my sympathies to the participants and sincerely hope that they at least enjoy playing with some people of their own age in a closed tournament, something they would probably seldom have a chance of doing.

I will also be very interested to hear what the prize fund is; I shall also find out what the rent is tomorrow and post it here.

Take care, God Bless, and good luck in the rest of the competition to all of the competitors, ( but some more than others ;) )

Macavity VP

arosar
07-07-2005, 06:23 AM
I will also be very interested to hear what the prize fund is; I shall also find out what the rent is tomorrow and post it here.

Good onya mate. I knew there were sane Mexicans. Let's get answers from these people cos they ain't paying attention.

Have a good day and God bless you too.

AR

ursogr8
07-07-2005, 07:53 AM
That bloody thread starter has since disappeared. That's the problem with these normally noisy bastards. As soon as the questions get tougher, they just duck and weave and bloody disappear. Gutless pricks!

The entire Australian nation is being humiliated by these people. Crucify them.

AR

AR

Perhaps you have spent too much time bumping around multiple threads,
and have become disoriented, Mr Sydney Eccentric.

Just for you...., point and click. (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=62259&postcount=1)

Or if that fails...the first post in this very thread mate. ;)

regards
starter

ChessGuru
07-07-2005, 04:09 PM
Hi,

As organiser of the tournament I am now being made aware that the event is not able to be FIDE rated. I was under the misconception that the minimum rate of play for a FIDE rated event was 60minutes. This is correct, but only for events where players are Under 1600. I am now aware of this.

All the players in the event have been well aware of the conditions of the tournament for many months. Including time control, entry fees, prizes and the rest. All players willingly entered under these conditions and paid their fees - presumably they felt it was a worthwhile event, otherwise they would not have entered.

All players, arbiters, shop assitants, organisers etc have some small part to blame in the mistake that was made. Anyone could have brought the error in the time controls to my (or others) attention anytime since the entry forms were first distribued (months ago). I will admit that it was PRIMARILY my responsibility to check these details and there I erred by not checking. But of course Gino is aware of that - which is why he doesn't want to tell his mum, why didn't he check? I would have obviously altered the time control - but he didn't. Neither did anyone else. Even a mention to the arbiter at the start of round 1 would have probably been sufficient to alter the time controls....

I am sure nobody believes that this was a deliberate attempt to sabotage the event, and all other aspects of the event were advertised and accepted by players choosing to enter the event.

I will consider all possibilities with regards to reparations for the mistake, and I am confident that I can satisfy players with an appropriate outcome. I will be doing so individually with each participant.

I appreciate your logic with regard to entry fees, but surely nobody can be so stupid to say: $1250 income, salary doesn't count as expense, books already in your shop doesn't count as expense, you shouldn't be paying so much rent to the MCC, forget about advertising, possible contributions to Aus Masters event plus add in the income of 8 x $125 from Reserves event (of course forgetting any expenses there). And even if you (collectively) were so stupid to believe that i've just pocketed $1000....why is that wrong? This is a philosophical point - why is it wrong to make a proift from a chess event?

If the entry fee was too high, players wouldn't have come to play!

Starter- this is a CV approved event being run in conjuction (or as a subsidiary event to...) with the Vic Masters. CV will be submitting these events for rating (ACF and FIDE). I have been running Vic Junior Masters events since 1995 (or perhaps 94) - where Michael Kagan Jrn was first and I finished second, I think Joseph Chow was 3rd.... I don't have a list of all the winners, but could probably create one if i could be bothered...which i can't.

flukey
07-07-2005, 04:36 PM
Hi Everybody. I am a New Zealand player who is a regular visitor to Australian tournaments such as the Vic Masters and Australian Masters. Most of these featured the guru (David) in some sort of capacity. All of those tournaments were run ok and were enjoyable.

I have lurked on this bulletin board for awhile and feel that it is worth pointing out that without people willing to organise events, the Oz / NZ scene would be poorer for it. Most of us (me included) are way too disorganised to organise a tourney so I hate to think people who do will get put off.

I know Gino well, so feel like I can say stop moaning Gino and enjoy the tournament. In fact win the tournament! I'll even buy you a drink at the next tourney if you do.

While on the topic of tournament organisers, Paul Spiller and co who ran the Zonal did a positively mindblowingly good job. All the Aussies I talked to were very impressed. The Queenstown Tourney next year should be even better so I encourage all you Aussies to get your butts down there.

Bereaved
07-07-2005, 05:25 PM
Hi,

As organiser of the tournament I am now being made aware that the event is not able to be FIDE rated. I was under the misconception that the minimum rate of play for a FIDE rated event was 60minutes. This is correct, but only for events where players are Under 1600. I am now aware of this.

All the players in the event have been well aware of the conditions of the tournament for many months. Including time control, entry fees, prizes and the rest. All players willingly entered under these conditions and paid their fees - presumably they felt it was a worthwhile event, otherwise they would not have entered.

All players, arbiters, shop assitants, organisers etc have some small part to blame in the mistake that was made. Anyone could have brought the error in the time controls to my (or others) attention anytime since the entry forms were first distribued (months ago). I will admit that it was PRIMARILY my responsibility to check these details and there I erred by not checking. But of course Gino is aware of that - which is why he doesn't want to tell his mum, why didn't he check? I would have obviously altered the time control - but he didn't. Neither did anyone else. Even a mention to the arbiter at the start of round 1 would have probably been sufficient to alter the time controls....

I am sure nobody believes that this was a deliberate attempt to sabotage the event, and all other aspects of the event were advertised and accepted by players choosing to enter the event.

I will consider all possibilities with regards to reparations for the mistake, and I am confident that I can satisfy players with an appropriate outcome. I will be doing so individually with each participant.

I appreciate your logic with regard to entry fees, but surely nobody can be so stupid to say: $1250 income, salary doesn't count as expense, books already in your shop doesn't count as expense, you shouldn't be paying so much rent to the MCC, forget about advertising, possible contributions to Aus Masters event plus add in the income of 8 x $125 from Reserves event (of course forgetting any expenses there). And even if you (collectively) were so stupid to believe that i've just pocketed $1000....why is that wrong? This is a philosophical point - why is it wrong to make a proift from a chess event?

If the entry fee was too high, players wouldn't have come to play!

Starter- this is a CV approved event being run in conjuction (or as a subsidiary event to...) with the Vic Masters. CV will be submitting these events for rating (ACF and FIDE). I have been running Vic Junior Masters events since 1995 (or perhaps 94) - where Michael Kagan Jrn was first and I finished second, I think Joseph Chow was 3rd.... I don't have a list of all the winners, but could probably create one if i could be bothered...which i can't.

Dear all,

I was present on the first day of this event at the MCC and raised the matter of the time controls with Leonid Sandler, who assured me that the event was rateable. I expressed my surprise about this matter and he told me that there had been many changes in the revised FIDE rules as applied from the 1st of July.

So if in truth, this matter was said to be rectifiable by the matter being brought to the organizers or their delegates ( in this case the tournament arbiter) 's notice, then why were they not changed at that point?

The first round had not concluded when this discussion took place, and that is the specified reference point referred to above, and as such, protestations that the time control could be changed at that point are shown to be nonsensical as they were brought to attention, and they were not changed??

And as an organizer of numerous events, I am much more at ease admitting that I have made a mistake when I have in fact done so, than instead turning around to those who have entered my event and saying that they should in effect check that I have not provided false or misleading information about my event before entering...Why would I issue a document with the idea of turning the competitors into both amateur editors and/or investigators. The obligations of the organizer are to verify the information being presented. Please own this responsibility, CG, and do not try and pass it off on your clients!

As far as the tournament schedule goes, the tournament was initially to have been a 7 round, 8 player event, but late entries led to this being 9 rounds and 10 players. As such the schedule was altered to accomodate the additional rounds, which again begs the question about the above reference to knowing of the terms and conditions "Months in advance.."??
I am not rock solid on this, but I believe it is even less than one month since the full field was finalised with the final number of 10 players...again lots of questions there potentially?

I also find it perplexing that in your closing paragraph that leaving aside submission for ACF rating, you still refer to FIDE rating for these event(s?)

Given that you have accepted the unsuitability of the Junior Masters to be FIDE rated, why mention that you will submit them? It makes no sense to submit a tournament that is unrateable, and God forbid that legerdemain would be employed to provide a report which stipulated an incorrect time control, which as I understand it is theoretically possible, but nonetheless a falsification. Why do you persist in suggesting this? In particular in the context of assigning that "Starter- this is a CV approved event being run in conjuction (or as a subsidiary event to...) with the Vic Masters. CV will be submitting these events for rating (ACF and FIDE) "that it is CV's decision to nonetheless submit these events for FIDE rating? I would bve very surprised to hear that Gary Wastell would approve of the submission of an event that had erroneous data in it's report; neither would Gary Bekker.

Finally, that the players understood the terms and conditions of the event as listed, surely the tournament being a FIDE rated event was a large consideration for many of them, who may have not played at all but for this.

As such, your suggestion that they misinformed (tricked) themselves does you no credit, nor helps in the long run in bringing this matter to a conclusion that the parties involved, ( participants, their families ) will find satisfactory.

Finally( I know i said it twice...i'm sorry for misinforming you :D ) the rent has now been confirmed as $400 for the Australian Masters, proper, and a further $150 for the Victorian Junior Masters once that event was assigned to this venue, with a total rental therefore of $550 for the entire course of these events. This decision was arrived at by the MCC committee, and is acceptable to them; we do not feel that this is an inappropriate sum and are pleased with the conduct of the players in both events,

all the best, God Bless, Macavity VP

PS I hope that all the players at least played some interesting chess, and good luck on the last rounds.

PPS Who is the sleeping arbiter? :hmm:

PPPS Why is it that Gino should be made to feel incompetent in that he feels that he must deceive his mother? Because of your stuffup, David! For goodness sake, how dare you suggest that he is culpable in this? :evil: Grow up! another spoonful perhaps? M

arosar
07-07-2005, 06:27 PM
Very well delivered mac. This so called Guru only make himself look like a stupid idiot. Not to mention an inhospitable, heartless bastard.

AR

GinoTHEstud
07-07-2005, 06:43 PM
Dear Gino,


Thanks for your email….



The time control for this event has been advertised for MONTHS!



I too am pissed off that only on day 2 of the tournament (and in your case at the END of the day) anyone has told me that the event will not qualify for FIDE rating.


I had been told the minimum time control for FIDE ratings was 60min, which is true, but not for events with players over 1600….so I was labouring under a misconception.



I agree that this is a load of shit – everyone had some responsibility (however small) to check the details for the tournament. Even to ask a question during the FIRST round when it could have been altered and the tournament fixed. Everyone was well aware of the advertised conditions for the tournament – to make complaints ½ way through the event is a bit lame…



One thing I certainly view as valid complaints are about the running of the event.



Please let me know about the coaching situation – I am not there, but Leonid Sandler is being paid over $1000 to provide coaching during this event, I’d like to know if that is not happening. Or what indeed is happening with coaching if there is some but not much… The situation should be that every game you play is analysed by Leonid Sandler and when there is time (prior to 5pm) that he provide some lectures about games from the Aussie Masters.



I am sure if you ask Chris Depasquale he will provide you with a copy of ALL the Aussie Masters bulletins. I apologise if this has not been done already.



The prizes for each tournament were advertised as value of $150. This will amount to trophies (about $75) plus books (about $100).



If the trophy has a chip in it, don’t worry – we will have it replaced before Friday.



I am sorry you feel ripped off – but you were very happy prior to the event (with only 7 rounds). The 2 differences are

a) 2 extra games FREE

b) not FIDE rated



I can admit that the non-FIDE rated nature would be a bit of a disappointment, but win the tournament and qualify to the Vic Masters IM event next year and all will be well. I will investigate what we can do to rectify the situation with regards the FIDE rating of the event. But again, everyone has known for MONTHS about the tournament conditions and to make a complaint NOW when you’ve entered under those conditions is really a bit poor….



Don’t worry about the Tassie kid, he is very happy to be there – and I will be seeing him back here in Tasmania on Sunday and talk to him about his experiences.



I’d be happy to hear more about this event and solve the problems you are encountering… but please do so in a constructive way and not a destructive way. Alienating yourself by abusing people and kicking up a public fuss before speaking directly to the organiser really doesn’t look good and certainly doesn’t win you any brownie points. I had expected more of you.


Thanks
David

arosar
07-07-2005, 06:47 PM
You're a genius Gino. That's it. Play dirty. But I would've waited a little longer before playing my trump card. No matter. You have our sympathies.

He's quite amateurish this Guru, ain't he? Look how he does a bit of a shifty mind-job on you.

AR

Bereaved
07-07-2005, 06:59 PM
David, please clarify:
a: who told you it was required to be only 60 minutes?
b: how is before the end of round 1 = end of the second day (cf below), for questions regarding the time control and it's ramifications,

Questions,Questions, too many questions??...Now where is my pied pipe??

all the best, God Bless, Macavity

PS Was it that your arbiter/coach did not let you know of questions? also how can he prepare each of the players when they will be playing each other; someone must end up being disappointed one would think?? :hmm: :doh:


David Cordover wrote: " I agree that this is a load of shit – everyone had some responsibility (however small) to check the details for the tournament. Even to ask a question during the FIRST round when it could have been altered and the tournament fixed. Everyone was well aware of the advertised conditions for the tournament – to make complaints ½ way through the event is a bit lame…"

Libby
07-07-2005, 06:59 PM
Professionalism is not about being paid - it's about conducting yourself in a professional way.

If you stuff up - by telling people something is FIDE rated when it cannot be - then the last action of a professional person should be to turn the blame onto the "customer."

With a good, professional reputation, I can't understand why you could think people should have questioned the FIDE status of the event? As they expect professionalism and high standards from you, I imagine they believed you were advertising an event that met the rules.

I would have made that assumption. Not all of us are fully familiar with the FIDE rules ourselves. You are talking about Juniors, even if they are very good ones. And the parents are likely to be 99% in the dark so no help there. They rely on the information from the organising committee.

Is it an offence for which hung/drawn/quartered is appropriate? No. But I would find a less "qualified" apology to participants more appropriate than some attempt to make them shoulder all or part of the responsibility.

GinoTHEstud
07-07-2005, 07:15 PM
lol

Man i drew 2 games today.

I killed dusan. then Gm draw with Jager. so we sill tied on 1st. Then i drew last game lol shocking. So im on 6.5/8. Stjoic,jager 7/8. But they got to play each other tomorrow. But we aint playing for anything anyway. So who gives a rats booty.. lol na i still wouldnt minded of winning.

And for the record. I asked leonard on in the car on day 1 when we were going to the even.t I was like what is up with this time control..seems pretty wacked. he said its the minium it can be. Also the night before i asked chirs depaqule he quotes. 60/0 is rapid/ 60/10 can be fide rated.

Why did the reseerve have to pay 125$ too?...when there tournament wasnt fide rated? why not just $125- minus the fide levy?. Hmmmm? whats up doc?

When a empire falls they blame the emperor. hey i just made that up. Good work to me. But

Seriousnesss..

(Italic pretend there is a slant). When a empire falls they blame the emperor. Gino 2005 ad.

:)

OWNED!

GinoTHEstud
07-07-2005, 07:20 PM
flukey. stay out of this.

You dont even know me that well.

You cant even admit our game at congress. qb8+ instead of qc8+ just wins for me well a pawn prolly the game.

u and david would get on great.

I dont think ill win the tournament prolly only get 7.5/9. which might get 1st = but definetly 2nd

Thunderspirit
07-07-2005, 07:42 PM
It's probably a good time to make a reply. A lot have mistakes have been made in the process of the organisation of the tournament, and this is an opporunity to make a public apology for my role in this, especially to Gino.

The flyers that contained the incorrect time controls have sat on my desk at work for the last two months. I must have given 50 of them away, but I didn't sit through and look at the fine details. If anyone should take some of the responbilty for the time controls it should be me. I do consider myself to be a DOP and a OK one at that. I would have noticed immediately, and could have raised the alarm. I didn't and I am sorry.

Mac made some comments on Leonid's arbitering. Though he made a mistake he after all not a IA, but an IM so though the mistake hasn't helped try not to be too hard on him. For those who are may wonder why I am not running these events, is that I wanted more money that what is the going the rate. I could taken a very modest pay cut to run the event I din't want to as the FA and IA titles mean little to me at the moment. If I want gigs in Australian chess I can just ask for them.

I'm doing my best now to be as useful as I can. I was informed yesterday that the players hadn't recieved the Master's bullitens, so I printed each player a copy, the damaged throphy has also been replaced.

People shouldn't assume that we aren't trying to do more. Sadly we can't 'fix' the event and provide FIDE ratings from this event but we in future free entry could be given for a similar FIDE rated RR for example.

It's Gino I feel sorry for. All I can say is enjoy what little time you have left, and enjoy the bottle of rum I bought you... (Gino is 18, so there is nothing dodgy there). Best of luck tomorrow, normally I wouldn't wish a Kiwi good luck, go get 'em, best of luck and give it you're all...

Mischa
07-07-2005, 08:20 PM
Hey...well said
He is a cool kid really
We love him

ursogr8
07-07-2005, 08:45 PM
sweet then. But i just dont care. If i care..then i start to feel sad. i dont want to tell my mum what happend. Not fide rated blah blah. She be pissed off at me. And blame me. Why didnt you check. You surely would of known blah blah. just move on. Go out on friday hit the clubs etc.


hey Gino
It is great to see your fresh entry onto the bb.
We need your observations and views.

Listen this FIDE rating business. It is harder to get than our ACF rating right? Doesn't make it better, mate. Just a different number. In fact Bill's are looked after more lovingly, so the ACF number should suit just fine. Tell your mother that the ACF rating is 'stochastically smoothed', that should convince her.

We have a campaign here....Buy Australian...it helps keep the jobs in the country.

The GURU and his mates admit to a bit of a bungle. That is what the bb does best...DRAWS bungles to attention so that we learn from them.

Enjoy your stay and I hope you get at least second.

regards
starter

Leonid Sandler
07-07-2005, 08:54 PM
Round 6
D.Stojic-G.Thornton 0-1
S.Stojic-E.Schon 1-0
D.Yu-A.Dyer 1-0
J.Morris-N.Dour 1-0
J.Jager-A.Nikolaevsky 1-0

Round 7
N.Dour-D.Stojic 0-1
A.Nikolaevsky-S.Stojic 0-1
E.Schon-D.Yu 1-0
A.Dyer-J.Morris 0-1
G.Thornton-J.Jager 0,5-0,5

Round 8
D.Stojic-E.Schon 1-0
S.Stojic-D.Yu 1-0
J.Jager-J.Morris 1-0
G.Thornton-N.Dour 0,5-0,5
A.Nikolaevsky-A.Dyer 1-0
Final round Friday July8th @9-30am
The central game of the round : J.Jager 7 points-S.Stojic 7points,
other games feature G.Thornton 6,5-D.Yu 2
A.Dyer 0-D.Stojic 5,5
A.Nokolaevsky 2-J.Morris 4

GinoTHEstud
07-07-2005, 10:51 PM
hey Gino
It is great to see your fresh entry onto the bb.
We need your observations and views.

Listen this FIDE rating business. It is harder to get than our ACF rating right? Doesn't make it better, mate. Just a different number. In fact Bill's are looked after more lovingly, so the ACF number should suit just fine. Tell your mother that the ACF rating is 'stochastically smoothed', that should convince her.

We have a campaign here....Buy Australian...it helps keep the jobs in the country.

The GURU and his mates admit to a bit of a bungle. That is what the bb does best...DRAWS bungles to attention so that we learn from them.

Enjoy your stay and I hope you get at least second.

regards
starter


what? bro.......get real

Mischa
07-07-2005, 11:03 PM
hey Gino
It is great to see your fresh entry onto the bb.
We need your observations and views.

Listen this FIDE rating business. It is harder to get than our ACF rating right? Doesn't make it better, mate. Just a different number. In fact Bill's are looked after more lovingly, so the ACF number should suit just fine. Tell your mother that the ACF rating is 'stochastically smoothed', that should convince her.

We have a campaign here....Buy Australian...it helps keep the jobs in the country.

The GURU and his mates admit to a bit of a bungle. That is what the bb does best...DRAWS bungles to attention so that we learn from them.

Enjoy your stay and I hope you get at least second.

regards
starter
hey Trevor...are you interested in the opinion of those who were there?

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 07:46 AM
hey Trevor...are you interested in the opinion of those who were there?

hi R

Just ask for your money back.
The GURU doesn't have to outlay the FIDE fee any more (given that the event now will not be FIDE rated).
10 players...spread over $150 (from memory that was the number in a previous post). That is $15 per player, payable Friday the 8th.
I am not defending the error; just ask for your money back (with a nice please).

regards
starter

HAL
08-07-2005, 10:48 AM
Just ask for your money back.
The GURU doesn't have to outlay the FIDE fee any more (given that the event now will not be FIDE rated).
10 players...spread over $150 (from memory that was the number in a previous post). That is $15 per player, payable Friday the 8th.
I am not defending the error; just ask for your money back (with a nice please).

You don;t seem to be getting it, Trev. If the tournament was not going to be FIDE rated it probably would not have happened. Many of the players, especially those travelling interstate or internationally would not have come at all. Additionally, those who are travelling to Adelaide would probably have not bothered either. $15 refund to each participant is hardly sufficient.

I didn't see the flyers but it would seem that the event was advertised as a FIDE rated event. The participants took this on face value and should not themselves have to be conversant with the FIDE regulations in that regard. Now, due to a stuff up by the organiser the event is not able to be FIDE rated.

The participants are out of pocket by far more than the FIDE rating fee and it is the organiser's fault. Why should this be a revenue neutral situation for the organiser? Surely a show of good faith is more important than not making a loss. To my mind, $15 does not cut good faith. I'd like to see a substantial portion of the entry fee returned to all players and if possible something extra to compensate the non-Melbourne based players.

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 11:00 AM
You don;t seem to be getting it, Trev. If the tournament was not going to be FIDE rated it probably would not have happened. Many of the players, especially those travelling interstate or internationally would not have come at all. Additionally, those who are travelling to Adelaide would probably have not bothered either. $15 refund to each participant is hardly sufficient.

I didn't see the flyers but it would seem that the event was advertised as a FIDE rated event. The participants took this on face value and should not themselves have to be conversant with the FIDE regulations in that regard. Now, due to a stuff up by the organiser the event is not able to be FIDE rated.

The participants are out of pocket by far more than the FIDE rating fee and it is the organiser's fault. Why should this be a revenue neutral situation for the organiser? Surely a show of good faith is more important than not making a loss. To my mind, $15 does not cut good faith. I'd like to see a substantial portion of the entry fee returned to all players and if possible something extra to compensate the non-Melbourne based players.

Baz
What you say is sound in every respect; as usual.
However, I come from the stand-point that I don't think the FIDE rating is better than Bill's ACF rating. So, on the rating score.....$15 returned to sender fully compensates.
Will type more when I return from a meeting 11-12.
regards
starter

arosar
08-07-2005, 11:15 AM
However, I come from the stand-point that I don't think the FIDE rating is better than Bill's ACF rating.

No...no...no...and here you are again showing what a bossom buddy you are of that shifty khrunt, the GuruBoy.

It's not a question of which rating number is better (whatever the hell that means). If it's a FIDE rating they want, then that's what they want. Which is understandable, because mathematical gymnastics aside, the ACF rating has no meaning beyond our borders.

Do you get it?

AR

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 12:34 PM
No...no...no...and here you are again showing what a bossom buddy you are of that shifty khrunt, the GuruBoy.

It's not a question of which rating number is better (whatever the hell that means). If it's a FIDE rating they want, then that's what they want. Which is understandable, because mathematical gymnastics aside, the ACF rating has no meaning beyond our borders.

Do you get it?

AR

Baz, Amiel

Ok...I am back typing again, and as I suspected AR had gone his usual chant.
Listen here Mr Sydney Eccentric........I don't defend the GURU,.... I don't work for the GURU...I have not talked with the GURU for 12 months..

Now ....pasted just below here is a (part of a) post I posed to Gino earlier today, and then I deleted. But, now I invite you, Amiel, to fill it in.
The space below is for you to fill in how your life is enhanced by having an F.I.D.E. rating (in addition to all the other chess ratings you probably have already (or will have when Bill gives you an ACF one).

.
.
.
.
.
.

regards
starter

As far as I can see, all that you can list is, 'I want a FIDE rating'.
Convince me it is not just an ego thingo.
Tell me what you can actually do with a FIDE rating of 1802.

Just because some-one mentally invests a lot in getting a FIDE rating doesn't make it worth more than $15.

Let me finish by saying, the evidence here is that the GURU and his mates appear to have stuffed the flyers, stuffed the T&Cs, stuffed the listening to the customer, stuffed the identification of whose fault it was...(by blaming the victims).


regards
and once again defending a dubious cause
starter

WhiteElephant
08-07-2005, 12:34 PM
Any man and his dog can get an ACF rating simply by playing in any club tournament. The opportunity to get a FIDE Rating in Australia (and for Gino in NZ) is VERY limited. As someone who does not have a FIDE rating, I would be prepared to pay a large entry fee and to make many sacrifices to play in a FIDE rated tournament and I imagine others would too.

Edit: Hi starter - you may be right in that FIDE ratings do not have much real value, but I think most players would say they have a high PERCEIVED value, which is what counts.

arosar
08-07-2005, 12:47 PM
Baz, Amiel

Ok...I am back typing again, and as I suspected AR had gone his usual chant.
Listen here Mr Sydney Eccentric........I don't defend the GURU,.... I don't work for the GURU...I have not talked with the GURU for 12 months..

Bullsh*t! I reckon he's your illegitimate son!


As far as I can see, all that you can list is, 'I want a FIDE rating'.

Well WTF do you expect? You're a sick unit mate. Either you're just plain dumb or you got your aging head so far up the Guru's a-hole you're nuggin' is spinning. Why the hell does anyone want anything? Why does Bill have a quarter-mill set of wheels? Why does a woman wear undies with pretty laces?

FMD!

AR

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 12:51 PM
You don;t seem to be getting it, Trev. If the tournament was not going to be FIDE rated it probably would not have happened. Many of the players, especially those travelling interstate or internationally would not have come at all. Additionally, those who are travelling to Adelaide would probably have not bothered either. $15 refund to each participant is hardly sufficient.

I didn't see the flyers but it would seem that the event was advertised as a FIDE rated event. The participants took this on face value and should not themselves have to be conversant with the FIDE regulations in that regard. Now, due to a stuff up by the organiser the event is not able to be FIDE rated.

The participants are out of pocket by far more than the FIDE rating fee and it is the organiser's fault. Why should this be a revenue neutral situation for the organiser? Surely a show of good faith is more important than not making a loss. To my mind, $15 does not cut good faith. I'd like to see a substantial portion of the entry fee returned to all players and if possible something extra to compensate the non-Melbourne based players.

hi Baz

The PMs that reaching me are also suggesting 'consequential damages'. So, what is your position on half the airfares and accommodation claims? They are arguing that they would not have come if it was not FIDE rated.

starter

Brian_Jones
08-07-2005, 01:02 PM
However, I come from the stand-point that I don't think the FIDE rating is better than Bill's ACF rating.

FIDE ratings don't have to be better than ACF Ratings. They are already a de facto internatinal standard.

Once upon a time it was necessary to perform above 2200 to get a FIDE Rating. Players busted their guts to get the FIDE rating. I know players that were sad to lose their FIDE rating because they went below 2200.

Now that the FIDE rating cut-off has been lowered, it is a challenge for a new generation of players that previously could not hope to perform above 2200.

FIDE ratings might be sneered upon by some but their are very important to players with ambitions to perform at an internatinal standard and be recognised by their peers (at home and abroad), particularly as the world gets smaller and overseas travel is more common.

Hope to see you in the 2005 Malaysian Open in KL in August. But note that the entry fee is much greater if you don't have a FIDE Rating.

toyboy
08-07-2005, 01:03 PM
looks like fun can anyone do this?


The space below is for you to fill in how your life is enhanced by having an F.I.D.E. rating (in addition to all the other chess ratings you probably have already (or will have when Bill gives you an ACF one).

a fide rating is an internationally recognised measure, accurate or inaccurate. anyone with representative or international asperations does or should desire one. just as anyone wishing to play in australian events should desire an acf rating.

additionally such are fide ratings regarded, that events like these, the doeberl, etc are being fide rated to draw numbers. in fact if what i have heard is true, previous events of the type of the closed fide rating events have offered reduced or free entry to the fide rated players. i mean without them the organiser is stuffed!

i don't think this was not the case with the vic young masters. apparently sufficient pressure to play could be brought to bear on the fide rated juniors (trading on their sense of obligation to their unrated comrades) to allow the organiser to collect full entry fees from all participants. this seems to be the case in Gino's case at least.


regards
starter

does that help clarify it for you?

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 01:03 PM
Any man and his dog can get an ACF rating simply by playing in any club tournament. The opportunity to get a FIDE Rating in Australia (and for Gino in NZ) is VERY limited. As someone who does not have a FIDE rating, I would be prepared to pay a large entry fee and to make many sacrifices to play in a FIDE rated tournament and I imagine others would too.

Edit: Hi starter - you may be right in that FIDE ratings do not have much real value, but I think most players would say they have a high PERCEIVED value, which is what counts.

hi W.E.

Are you recommending a refund on the basis of PERCEIVED value then?
I can see one or two there who already have a FIDE rating, and this tourney will not increase that. So, their refund is $0
And some came for the rating only. So their refund is $125.
And one doesn't have a published rating but is in a current BH event that will be FIDE rated.......... so he gets 1/2*$125 =$62.50

Give us the details of your solution WE.

warmest regards
starter

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 01:07 PM
Bullsh*t! I reckon he's your illegitimate son!



Well WTF do you expect? You're a sick unit mate. Either you're just plain dumb or you got your aging head so far up the Guru's a-hole you're nuggin' is spinning. Why the hell does anyone want anything? Why does Bill have a quarter-mill set of wheels? Why does a woman wear undies with pretty laces?

FMD!

AR

:) Do you feel better after all that?
Nice turn of phrase by you.


The answer to your question is that you can do things with Bill's chariot and frilly knickers.
But, as is evidenced from the lack of detail in your reply...you can do nothing with a FIDE rating of 1802.

regards
starter

arosar
08-07-2005, 01:19 PM
But, as is evidenced from the lack of detail in your reply...you can do nothing with a FIDE rating of 1802.

It's psychosomatic.

Bill's $250K pussycat makes him feel like a regular Ron Jeremy. Frilly knickers can make even an elfin sheila feel like 6-foot leggy blonde.

You see what I'm getting at?

AR

WhiteElephant
08-07-2005, 01:26 PM
Are you recommending a refund on the basis of PERCEIVED value then?

Yes, since I believe that would have been a factor in every competitor's decision to participate (though obviously in differing degrees).


I can see one or two ther who already have a FIDE rating, and this tourney will not increase that. So, their refund is $0
And some only came for the rating only. So their refund is $125.
And one doesn't have a published rating but is in a current BH event that will be FIDE rated.......... so he gets 1/2*$125 =$62.50

If I was the organiser of the tournament and I had made the same mistake, I would do the following:

1) Admit and take FINANCIAL responsibility for the mistake
2) Offer adequate compensation to competitors.

It is clearly not practical to give one refund to one competitor, and a different amount to another, based on rating. I believe a fair compromise would be to refund 50% of entry fee to all competitors and come to individual agreements with the Interstate and Overseas players, based on their level of inconvenience and dissatisfaction, (to a maximum of 50% of their airfare and accomodation).

Organisers of private tournaments stand to make a profit from a successful and well-run tournament which is fair enough, but in that case they should be responsible for making sure they deliver the product they advertised. At least if they want to salvage their reputation and have players entering their
tournaments in the future.

W.E.

pax
08-07-2005, 01:31 PM
This is absolutely laughable. The resonsibility for checking the FIDE regulations is *solely* that of the chief organiser. You might stretch that to include the arbiter, but to suggest that players and shop assistants in some way share the responsibility shows incredible cheek.

I'm sure the players are kicking themselves for not having checked, but come on, they are perfectly entitled to believe an experienced organiser who advertises a tournament as FIDE rated.

I believe in this case, the organisers should make financial reparations to the players. At the *very* least, they should return the value of the FIDE rating fee. Realistically, they ought to provide more compensation that that, on the basis that players such as Gino competed on the understanding that the tournament was rated, and would not have competed otherwise. I am no lawyer, but I bet the players could make a claim in the small claims court for such a mess.





All players, arbiters, shop assitants, organisers etc have some small part to blame in the mistake that was made. Anyone could have brought the error in the time controls to my (or others) attention anytime since the entry forms were first distribued (months ago). I will admit that it was PRIMARILY my responsibility to check these details and there I erred by not checking. But of course Gino is aware of that - which is why he doesn't want to tell his mum, why didn't he check? I would have obviously altered the time control - but he didn't. Neither did anyone else. Even a mention to the arbiter at the start of round 1 would have probably been sufficient to alter the time controls....

GinoTHEstud
08-07-2005, 02:41 PM
Well i got 7.5/9.

so david you going to email me on how your going to give me some of my money back. or compensation?.

Small claims court...hmmm....

Gino

HAL
08-07-2005, 03:07 PM
:clap:

Well done, Gino!

What happened in the other games?

Garvinator
08-07-2005, 03:27 PM
or compensation?.
how about free entry into another event run by the same organisers ;) ?

GinoTHEstud
08-07-2005, 03:28 PM
jager got owned by stojic older 1. Stojic won on 8/9. Then me then jager on 7/9 then dusan stjoic.

yesterday i blunderd against nic dour and hadto have a draw. So...didnt manage to get 8. Sevestor stojic played some good chess. i remained underfeated. i got a good trophy and a good book. ;).

arosar
08-07-2005, 03:30 PM
So mom will be happy then eh?

AR

Mischa
08-07-2005, 05:41 PM
and James came next with 5...good result for the youngest competitor!

HAL
08-07-2005, 05:47 PM
and James came next with 5...good result for the youngest competitor!

:clap:

Excellent performance by James and good luck in Adelaide this weekend!

:clap:

flukey
08-07-2005, 05:51 PM
flukey. stay out of this.

You dont even know me that well.

You cant even admit our game at congress. qb8+ instead of qc8+ just wins for me well a pawn prolly the game.

u and david would get on great.

I dont think ill win the tournament prolly only get 7.5/9. which might get 1st = but definetly 2nd

Stay out of what??? Pointing out that without people to organise tournaments the whole Oz / NZ chess scene would be a touch boring??

Regardless of how well I know you, it is sound advice to stop moaning and concentrate on improving your chess. I'm sure playing in this round robin tournament is a chance to do just that. With due respect to people suggesting otherwise, I think the juniors in this tourney will benefit far more from the competition amongst their peers than worrying about their FIDE rating.

And you mention our game at the NZ congress?? Not quite the thread topic, but anyway you are correct in part. After you played passively for 42 moves as white, you were completely lost (Fritz modestly assessed it as +4 for me). My 42nd move was a blunder when we were both short of time. Still, given you resigned on the 44th move, I never suspected that my second to last move was a mistake. Even after my blunder, it was still only a draw not winning to you. The analysis runs 42 ... Rd1?? (Qf3! wins) 43 Qb8! (not 43 Qc8 kf7 0 1 as you played) Rd8 (i missed that after kf7 44 Qb3 you were attacking my rook) 44 Qb3 (44 Qb7 Rd1 repeats) Qd5 45 Qd5 Rd5 46 g4 g6 47 Rh6 Kg7 48 g5 f4 49 Bf4 Bg5 with a dead draw.

I'm playing in the North Island rapid Gino so maybe you can get revenge there. Though frankly losing to an 18 year old wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, I got beaten by a 9 year old (Daniel Baider) at rapid at the club this week! Just to complete the bizareness, then beat a 2350 player the same night!

flukey

HAL
08-07-2005, 06:05 PM
What you say is sound in every respect; as usual.
However, I come from the stand-point that I don't think the FIDE rating is better than Bill's ACF rating. So, on the rating score.....$15 returned to sender fully compensates.
Will type more when I return from a meeting 11-12.

I'm back but I didn't really see any more substance in your reply, it seemed to be aimed at Amiel more than me.

The point is not the accuracy of the ACF rating, but the value of it. The tournament was advertised as FIDE rated. I would doubt it was advertised as ACF rated. Although I admit, I might be wrong on this point. However, I'm sure the draw card was FIDE rating opportunity, not ACF rating opportunities which are (as pointed out by others) a dime a dozen in this country.

One of the advantages of semi-retirement is often others have already replied with points and so you no longer need to make them. This seems to have happened in this case so I will now discreetly leave the thread. ;)

Mischa
08-07-2005, 06:33 PM
On a last note maybe...
Thanks Gino for being a great guest. We love you and enjoyed your company. Always polite and appreciative.....you are welcome with us whenever you visit Melbourne.

Thunderspirit
08-07-2005, 08:16 PM
While the mistake of the time controls is a bad error, at the end of the day even if the event was FIDE rated it would still make little difference. As a player scored 0/9 the event would have at best produced perfromance blocks, no U/R player would have gained a rating. This isn't an attempt to grovel out of the situation, just another look at the situation.

For the locals it maybe possible to offer a free event in future. For Gino, he broke even from his 2/3 against the FIDE's so his loss though annoying is not the 'crimes agianst humanity' that everyone is claiming. For A. Dyer the Tassie kid, he would have gained a lot of experience from his games, so got his money's worth. For those who may crititise letting a player rated 1100 into such an event, I also was invited to play a FIDE rated RR once and scored 0. (this wasn't one of mine...)

It's a bad error, it shouldn't have been made... I have to eat my own words, regarding my gee-up towards Garvin...no problems... I'm adult enough to admit that mistake... Let's move on...

HAL
08-07-2005, 08:30 PM
While the mistake of the time controls is a bad error, at the end of the day even if the event was FIDE rated it would still make little difference. As a player scored 0/9 the event would have at best produced perfromance blocks, no U/R player would have gained a rating. This isn't an attempt to grovel out of the situation, just another look at the situation.

Lee,

This is assuming of course that pressure was not brought to bear on his low scoring opponents in the last few rounds to gift him a couple of draws so that the event would have been FIDE rateable.

Oh sorry, that's right. That would never happen. ;)

As the whole event was ineligible anyway such pressure was (fortunately) unnecessary.

regards, Barry

HAL
08-07-2005, 08:41 PM
For the locals it maybe possible to offer a free event in future. For Gino, he broke even from his 2/3 against the FIDE's so his loss though annoying is not the 'crimes agianst humanity' that everyone is claiming. For A. Dyer the Tassie kid, he would have gained a lot of experience from his games, so got his money's worth. For those who may crititise letting a player rated 1100 into such an event, I also was invited to play a FIDE rated RR once and scored 0. (this wasn't one of mine...)

As for this paragraph. It must have been written with so many pairs of rose-coloured glasses on it is amazing you could type at all. I was wondering if this constituted an offer from the tournament organiser. That was, until I realised that nothing was being offered.

Have a good weekend.
Barry

ursogr8
08-07-2005, 09:07 PM
<snip>
Starter- this is a CV approved event being run in conjuction (or as a subsidiary event to...) with the Vic Masters. CV will be submitting these events for rating (ACF and FIDE). I have been running Vic Junior Masters events since 1995 (or perhaps 94) - where Michael Kagan Jrn was first and I finished second, I think Joseph Chow was 3rd.... I don't have a list of all the winners, but could probably create one if i could be bothered...which i can't.

CGuru

I am rather confident that the minutes of CV Executive meetings do not show the VIC Junior Masters to be an approved event at this point.
It has been a past practice for CV to retrospectvely approve the Aus. masters on occasions.

regards
starter

Thunderspirit
08-07-2005, 09:42 PM
As for this paragraph. It must have been written with so many pairs of rose-coloured glasses on it is amazing you could type at all. I was wondering if this constituted an offer from the tournament organiser. That was, until I realised that nothing was being offered.

Have a good weekend.
Barry

Hi Barry,
That's a fair call. :clap: With no chance of a FIDE ratings there is no incentive to throw half a point to the bottom player. In practice though this hurts players as the ratings generated are disorted by the poor rating at the bottom.

ursogr8
09-07-2005, 10:24 AM
I'm back but I didn't really see any more substance in your reply, it seemed to be aimed at Amiel more than me.

The point is not the accuracy of the ACF rating, but the value of it. The tournament was advertised as FIDE rated. I would doubt it was advertised as ACF rated. Although I admit, I might be wrong on this point. However, I'm sure the draw card was FIDE rating opportunity, not ACF rating opportunities which are (as pointed out by others) a dime a dozen in this country.

One of the advantages of semi-retirement is often others have already replied with points and so you no longer need to make them. This seems to have happened in this case so I will now discreetly leave the thread. ;)

Baz
You indicated that you would not return...so that was why I ceased. Now that you have posted again...let me add my view of what is a summary

starter >Is it worth chasing a FIDE rating? I doubt it unless you are at international levels
White Elephant > Some people have a PERCEIVED high desire for a FIDE rating
Brian Jones > You get a discount into the Malaysian OPEN, and a number that is at International standards
Gino and Toyboy and Gino's mum > we want one

The point made by HAL that the GURU's organisation needs to make a decent compensation offer to participants IN ORDER TO RETAIN GOODWILL, might be a valid commercial decision, but has little to do with the value of a FIDE rating (except that it was this issue that put the goodwill at risk).

regards, in your semi-retirement,
starter

Lucena
09-07-2005, 12:45 PM
:) Do you feel better after all that?
Nice turn of phrase by you.


The answer to your question is that you can do things with Bill's chariot and frilly knickers.

regards
starter

Could you please clarify starter that you are not asserting Bill wears frilly nickers.

Lucena
09-07-2005, 02:42 PM
...
The point made by HAL that the GURU's organisation needs to make a decent compensation offer to participants IN ORDER TO RETAIN GOODWILL, might be a valid commercial decision, but has little to do with the value of a FIDE rating (except that it was this issue that put the goodwill at risk).

regards, in your semi-retirement,
starter

I can't find anywhere a statement by HAL that "in order to maintain goodwill" is a reason for providing compensation. I assume you have put those words in his mouth. I think the issue is not "how can the business maximise positive perceptions by customers and minimise negative ones", but the question here is one of obligation. If an advertisement has made definite factual claims (eg something like "this tournament satisfies the conditions for being a fide-rated tournament") and these claims made are not honoured(eg the tournament could not possibly be fide-rated once the very first game was played), then the question is whether people who have purchased the good or service being advertised are entitled to redress.

In particular, it could be argued that in at least one case here, one person[Gino] who purchased the good/service did so on the basis of an advertised claim that was demonstrably not honoured. If the false claim had not been made, the good/service would not have been purchased. So in sum, I think the issue is whether an obligation can be demonstrated on the part of the seller of the good/service.

If as a result compensation is provided, the provider of such compensation might receive goodwill, but this would not necessarily be the main purpose of such compensation. I suggest that the main reason a business might provide compensation would be to fulfil its obligation.

ursogr8
09-07-2005, 07:22 PM
I can't find anywhere a statement by HAL that "in order to maintain goodwill" is a reason for providing compensation.

hi gbc

It is not often Baz has to have anyone rush to his side, but I guess you feel the need as he has announced he is in semi-retirement.




"WHERE"..you ask?

I was responding to this Baz post (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=62858&postcount=69) and this particular sentence from Baz > Surely a show of good faith is more important than not making a loss.
I will watch with interest to see if the dialect difference between NSW and VIC brings you back to argue that 'good faith ' is not closer to 'goodwill' than it is to legal obligation.



I assume you have put those words in his mouth.
I think I will hold off on this till you consider the post.



I think the issue is not "how can the business maximise positive perceptions by customers and minimise negative ones", but the question here is one of obligation. If an advertisement has made definite factual claims (eg something like "this tournament satisfies the conditions for being a fide-rated tournament") and these claims made are not honoured(eg the tournament could not possibly be fide-rated once the very first game was played), then the question is whether people who have purchased the good or service being advertised are entitled to redress.
Well gbc...legal obligation is an issue; not the only one mind you.
>If the players think there was a legal obligation then they have avenues of redress.
> If the GURU thinks he has a legal obligation then he would be well advised to consider it carefully.
> If you think there is a legal obligation then that is your right.



In particular, it could be argued that in at least one case here, one person[Gino] who purchased the good/service did so on the basis of an advertised claim that was demonstrably not honoured. If the false claim had not been made, the good/service would not have been purchased. So in sum, I think the issue is whether an obligation can be demonstrated on the part of the seller of the good/service.
You need to debate this with the legal eagles here; probably Denis when he returns.
It is not a point I have addressed at all.....I simply advised Gino that I thought the value of a FIDE rating to be a chimera.


If as a result compensation is provided, the provider of such compensation might receive goodwill, but this would not necessarily be the main purpose of such compensation. I suggest that the main reason a business might provide compensation would be to fulfil its obligation.

This is a trade-off ^ for the GURU to consider and perhaps post on; not a topic that furthers my value observation about a FIDE rating of 1802.

regards
starter

Mischa
09-07-2005, 08:10 PM
we have heard only from Gino...what of Klyall who was very annoyed?
'cept she is in Adelaide at the moment.
Or me?

ursogr8
09-07-2005, 09:58 PM
we have heard only from Gino...what of Klyall who was very annoyed?
'cept she is in Adelaide at the moment.
Or me?

Mischa
I am presuming this question is directed at me since it follows my previous post?

Well, kylall e-mailed me for .... (oops I nearly said what was in a private e-mail), and when I gave her a lengthy written response she thanked me. So, I don't I have a problem with klyall.
She is rightly annoyed because she placed a high PERCEIVED value on the FIDE rating and when it was bungled away there was a natural annoyance. But if she had not placed a high PERCEIVED value on the FIDE rating then her equanimity would be something else again.

Now we come to your annoyance; I hope you shared it with the the GURU, Lee, and L?

regards
and I hope you are well
starter

Mischa
09-07-2005, 10:20 PM
Um
My issues were different and difficult to address.
Gino was a guest in my house and my son a competitor.....others helped me for a variety of reasons and others let me down.
i am withholding comment until i have a chance to discuss it with the powers that be.
I do not and never have thought it was anything but an honest mistake....
I will wait and find out what needs to be done.

GinoTHEstud
09-07-2005, 11:00 PM
I want some sort of compensation.

SEnd me some chess books.[deleted] im going to bed. Just off the plane.

Australia was awsome.Im inpressed with the casino but not my poker skillz.

Mischa
09-07-2005, 11:05 PM
shhhh
sleep

arosar
10-07-2005, 10:10 AM
I want some sort of compensation.

Mate, you deserve it. The bloody tournament's been advertised as one thing and turned out to be another. Don't worry about that shifty khrunt and his sugar-daddy*. They're nothing. Just keep posting and demanding.

AR

EDIT: starter you dolt! You!

arosar
10-07-2005, 10:18 AM
While the mistake of the time controls is a bad error, at the end of the day even if the event was FIDE rated it would still make little difference. As a player scored 0/9 the event would have at best produced perfromance blocks, no U/R player would have gained a rating. This isn't an attempt to grovel out of the situation, just another look at the situation.

For the locals it maybe possible to offer a free event in future. For Gino, he broke even from his 2/3 against the FIDE's so his loss though annoying is not the 'crimes agianst humanity' that everyone is claiming. For A. Dyer the Tassie kid, he would have gained a lot of experience from his games, so got his money's worth. For those who may crititise letting a player rated 1100 into such an event, I also was invited to play a FIDE rated RR once and scored 0. (this wasn't one of mine...)

It's a bad error, it shouldn't have been made... I have to eat my own words, regarding my gee-up towards Garvin...no problems... I'm adult enough to admit that mistake... Let's move on...

If we ever had an award for the stupidest post, this must be one of them. Lee, mate, you're learning all the wrong things from your boss mate. What's he bloody got you on?

And you leave me mate gray alone alright, you bastard.

AR

Bereaved
11-07-2005, 02:05 AM
Hi Lee,

Perhaps I'm a bit strange, but to present a post in terms of " Turned out it couldn't be FIDE rated anyway, so you would have only got a block, so let's all move on with our lives, and let's not trouble anymore with the annoying detail of our stuffup, after all, all's well for which we end up blameless?!!" is more than odd?? :wall:

Huh???

Since when did the argument of sorry with so many laden conditionals become the accepted format for good business?

Let's look at it slowly:

Originally Posted by Liberace
While the mistake of the time controls is a bad error, at the end of the day even if the event was FIDE rated it would still make little difference. As a player scored 0/9 the event would have at best produced perfromance blocks, no U/R player would have gained a rating. This isn't an attempt to grovel out of the situation, just another look at the situation.


Another look? A look that the events at the end of this tournament have conveniently and fortuitously made possible the patent impossiblity of you fulfilling the contract that you had entered into? And as such obviated your need to be troubled about your organisation's failures?
And little difference is not the same thing as no difference; many of those player's would undoubtedly be happier to be leaving the tournament with a block, or more rateable games, as opposed to the experience of the most overpriced 4 day weekender in history?

And if this is a "bad" error, does that mean there are in turn worse errors available? If such, I imagine they could only involve an event of some disaster away from the board, as the lapse in accountability so far displayed is looking hard to top.

For the locals it maybe possible to offer a free event in future. For Gino, he broke even from his 2/3 against the FIDE's so his loss though annoying is not the 'crimes agianst humanity' that everyone is claiming. For A. Dyer the Tassie kid, he would have gained a lot of experience from his games, so got his money's worth. For those who may crititise letting a player rated 1100 into such an event, I also was invited to play a FIDE rated RR once and scored 0. (this wasn't one of mine...)


So although the locals may be offered a future free entry to an event of another nature, that is in fact only a possibility, and as such is not in fact an offer at all. In fact it is not of any note whatsoever, unless we are operating in a world based on only intangible offers

I fail to see any relevance to the fact that of Gino's results within the tournament, he scored 2/3 against the other FIDE rated players. What does that mean, a moral victory? Barring that, it just indicates that one of the players in the tournament took a point off him in a game ( or two draws), and the fact that the player was FIDE rated is irrelevant as the tournament is not to be FIDE Rated!!! And as far as broke even, if you mean that he ended up getting his entry fee back, GEE WHIZZ!!; you must have conveniently overlooked where his home address is??!

And the issue that Gino's anger was primarily about the tournament, but the fact of the tournament's unrateability was severely compounded by the matter that he had caught a plane to play in it! Not to mention the back handed email he was sent by the Guru, where he was told off for being upset and told that the issues he may have with his mother upon his return are of little concern to CG and in fact are basically his own fault?? Well and good for those within Australia to pontificate about the terrible shame of the lack of attention to detail in setting the terms and conditions for the tournament, but aside from Alistair, who was staying with his Grandparent's, Gino had wracked up Frequent Flyer points to be there, and had to stay away from home in a foreign country!!

Agreed his hosts are lovely people, but we all know that the point remains that the arrival of Gino in Australia, was predicated on the rateability of the tournament, and that fact still seems to remain without a concrete apology?


It is true that Alistair may have indeed enjoyed his trip over here, both for the visiting of his relatives, and for playing in an all junior event, which I guess would not be as likely in Tasmania, although I am not saying that such things do not happen.

And as far as the failure to score a point in an event for attaining a FIDE rating yourself, how did your fellow competitors feel about their failure to acquire new ratings for those otherwise eligible?; I assume they weren't delighted, but feel free to correct me. And if they were not delighted in this scenario, then where does the wisdom come from inviting someone to compete in an event who may in fact in some other better world, where the event was eligible for FIDE Rating, have caused the same problem to the other competitor's hoping to achieve a FIDE rating??
That doesn't make much sense to me? And as far as alluding to the fact that you were not running this event, of what moment is that? Are you saying that everyone always manages to score something in your events?

Or would have had you run this?? ( Question, not accusation ) Would this mean you would not have invited someone unlikely to score in the event?

It's a bad error, it shouldn't have been made... I have to eat my own words, regarding my gee-up towards Garvin...no problems... I'm adult enough to admit that mistake... Let's move on...


So 1.you agree it is a bad error; 2.You agree it ( the error) shouldn't have been made; 3.You then apologise for your discussions with Garvin over the matter; 4. I'm adult enough to admit that mistake; and finally 5. Let's move on,

Wow, that brings a tear to my eye, it is so touching as a concluding paragraph...not!

The usual practice in such cases of making a bad mistake are generally more than ' yes, I agree it was an error' and 'yes I agree it shouldn't have been made'. We want an apology, do you understand? Not merely an acceptance that these things were wrong and shouldn't have happened, and certainly not the distinct absence of a clear unambiguous response to this issue from any of the organisers. Instead we are being delivered a stream of responses that are heavily loaded with conditional acceptance of responsibility, and a great enthusiasm for using any means to throw up deflection sacrifices and desperados of all descriptions, and in fact strange notions of the players own culpabilty( or should that be gullibility? ) for believing the terms and conditions of the tournament organiser, and not checking the details themselves??

You must bring this matter to conclusion; this requires:
1. An unambiguous acceptance that the sole party at fault was the person who set the terms and conditions for the tournament.
2. An unqualified apology to all the participants of the event, in terms of the bad faith that might otherwise fester, and as such
3. A clear indication of what form of concrete reparation you plan to offer to the players, if any?

And as far as moving on Lee, Let's is a contraction of Let us. How do you see yourself as part of the 'us' in this?

If the 'us' is supposed to indicate the conglomerate of players, organizers and other bodies involved ( eg family members..) Then I feel that you are still missing the point.

In this case the 'us' is probably more of two groups called, unsurprisingly enough, 'us' and 'them'.

I guess that the 'us' in my mind is the players and their families and friends; the 'them' is the organisers.

In order for 'us' to move on, we need to hear from 'them' to help 'us' to feel happy enough to move on.

And we need to hear from 'them' about the matter in contention, as the

I'm adult enough to admit that mistake...

Is not what we want an apology about, Ok?

Please don't bother responding unless to fulfill the three conditions above, or to stipulate that these measures are being undertaken with the appropriate parties most directly involved in this event, otherwise more of the same is not required; I for one find it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth and difficulty swallowing,,

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Please note very well Lee. You said that you had turned down the request to run the event. As such, you are not obliged to put this on your own head, or perceive it to be an accusation of yourself as the party that needs to give the apology. But be aware that when you post things in a public forum, in a role of de facto organiser, as opposed to employee of CG, that you may be creating a rod for your own back. Just be mindful in the future, that people are often more likely to respond to a situation favourably when they feel that the sentiments being expressed are constructed with regard to their feelings. Telling an audience that the event would have no significance owing to a player's failure to score is not the point at issue, as you are well aware.

Basically, We want an apology!!! ( when do we want it ? ) NOW!!

M/M/M Sorry Got stuck in a rut...or was that a Rant...Where is an ayatollah when you need one? :evil:

DoroPhil
11-07-2005, 02:18 AM
Pykey... don't you have anything better to do?

Garvinator
11-07-2005, 02:21 AM
Pykey... don't you have anything better to do?
i thought he was just saying what most people must be thinking. Also I am more interested in how all the players are going to be compensated, not just apologies. It is easy to make a mistake and apology, but an apology is more meaningful when proper compensation is given.

This tournament was run by a business. A profit is fine to make when the tournament is run properly and better than others would have done. But when it isnt run properly and fundamental mistakes are made, then compensation must be given, even if only for good customer relations. If this results in a loss for the business, so be it and too bad.

DoroPhil
11-07-2005, 02:27 AM
What do you do for a living, Gray?

Bereaved
11-07-2005, 02:34 AM
DoroPhil,
You seem to think you know me? Why is that?

Why do you feel it necessary to comment on something that took me two hours to compose as being a waste of time?

Please attend to your mote, Sir,
Take care, God Bless, Macavity

Lucena
15-07-2005, 12:27 AM
i thought he was just saying what most people must be thinking.

I know it was what I was thinking.

ursogr8
17-07-2005, 09:56 PM
Hi,

As organiser of the tournament I am now being made aware that the event is not able to be FIDE rated. I was under the misconception that the minimum rate of play for a FIDE rated event was 60minutes. This is correct, but only for events where players are Under 1600. I am now aware of this.

All the players in the event have been well aware of the conditions of the tournament for many months. Including time control, entry fees, prizes and the rest. All players willingly entered under these conditions and paid their fees - presumably they felt it was a worthwhile event, otherwise they would not have entered.

All players, arbiters, shop assitants, organisers etc have some small part to blame in the mistake that was made. Anyone could have brought the error in the time controls to my (or others) attention anytime since the entry forms were first distribued (months ago). I will admit that it was PRIMARILY my responsibility to check these details and there I erred by not checking. But of course Gino is aware of that - which is why he doesn't want to tell his mum, why didn't he check? I would have obviously altered the time control - but he didn't. Neither did anyone else. Even a mention to the arbiter at the start of round 1 would have probably been sufficient to alter the time controls....

I am sure nobody believes that this was a deliberate attempt to sabotage the event, and all other aspects of the event were advertised and accepted by players choosing to enter the event.

I will consider all possibilities with regards to reparations for the mistake, and I am confident that I can satisfy players with an appropriate outcome. I will be doing so individually with each participant.

I appreciate your logic with regard to entry fees, but surely nobody can be so stupid to say: $1250 income, salary doesn't count as expense, books already in your shop doesn't count as expense, you shouldn't be paying so much rent to the MCC, forget about advertising, possible contributions to Aus Masters event plus add in the income of 8 x $125 from Reserves event (of course forgetting any expenses there). And even if you (collectively) were so stupid to believe that i've just pocketed $1000....why is that wrong? This is a philosophical point - why is it wrong to make a proift from a chess event?

If the entry fee was too high, players wouldn't have come to play!

Starter- this is a CV approved event being run in conjuction (or as a subsidiary event to...) with the Vic Masters. CV will be submitting these events for rating (ACF and FIDE). I have been running Vic Junior Masters events since 1995 (or perhaps 94) - where Michael Kagan Jrn was first and I finished second, I think Joseph Chow was 3rd.... I don't have a list of all the winners, but could probably create one if i could be bothered...which i can't.


Hands up all those who have received the Guru's reparations for the mistake.
I would be interested to hear the going rate for what a few have got into my shell-pink about
> the very limited coaching ACTUALLY received
> the Bulletins
> the lost opportunity for a FIDE rating.


Second, in a much earlier post on this thread, I invited all-comers to tell me the value of a FIDE rating of 1802. I have to admit to previously being a skeptic. Now I can see an event where a FIDE rating of 1802 is a pre-condition of entry.


starter

ursogr8
20-07-2005, 04:42 PM
^
^^
Some members of the event have received a survey-form from the GURU asking about their reactions to the event.
I guess that is a first step to the reparations that the Guru was talking about?

starter

ps Maybe the Guru has read my signature line. ;)










Mate, you deserve it. The bloody tournament's been advertised as one thing and turned out to be another. <snip>

AR

EDIT: starter you dolt! You!

AR
I have just found dolt in the Dictionary.
:eek:
:(
:rolleyes:
starter

auriga
20-07-2005, 04:49 PM
starter, you need to recruit more bb users from mexico to post here.
we're starved up here in nsw-land of inside information
into the poaching scandal and what not.
have you thought of starting your own blog??

ursogr8
20-07-2005, 04:54 PM
^
What is that Kenny line from South Park?

NOTORIOUS....Bill
StakesIsHigh....Bill
GURU.........Jeo
fg7.............?
Happy Friend.....?
Communicator...Jeo


They tried to, mate, but they get banned or bammed.

For a full list get Baz to run his script


starter

ursogr8
20-07-2005, 05:06 PM
starter, you need to recruit more bb users from mexico to post here.
we're starved up here in nsw-land of inside information
into the poaching scandal and what not.
have you thought of starting your own blog??

It was NOTORIOUS who appeared in Amiel's BLOG, btw.

The peace-pipe was smoked last week as there was agreement to split the difference before round 1.
The Mexicans appear able to quickly resolve their differences unlike those north of the Divide. ;)


Oops..........I just glanced at the heading for this thread. :uhoh:

starter

ursogr8
21-07-2005, 03:02 PM
starter, <snip>
have you thought of starting your own blog??

Ooooh, I am not so sure of that TMM.
Seems to get one steamed up (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=63862&postcount=166) and hot under the collar. ;)

starter

Bereaved
23-07-2005, 08:30 PM
Hello everybody,

As Starter said, there is rumoured to be some form of reparations, or at least a seeking from those involved as to what they perceive were the shortcomings of the event, with a view to later reparations.

Tell me more...

Firstly, are there to be reparations, or merely an assessment of what was wrong for avoidance next time.

Secondly, if there are to be reparations, what form will they take?

and thirdly, we still have seen little from those who were involved in this discussion, and I notice that one of them is online right now??

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

ursogr8
23-07-2005, 08:44 PM
Hello everybody,

As Starter said, there is rumoured to be some form of reparations, or at least a seeking from those involved as to what they perceive were the shortcomings of the event, with a view to later reparations.

Tell me more...

hi Mrs Holy
I would have thought 10 pages on this thread would have been enough for the shortcomings. :hand:


Firstly, are there to be reparations, or merely an assessment of what was wrong for avoidance next time.
The former is the only of interest now, surely.


Secondly, if there are to be reparations, what form will they take?
I have already posted the rumour elsewhere. Downstream tourney.


and thirdly, we still have seen little from those who were involved in this discussion, and I notice that one of them is online right now??

You can see more than me. ;)


Take care and God Bless, Macavity

I have had more than my fair share..thanks anyway.

starter

Bereaved
18-08-2005, 02:09 AM
Hello everyone,

I'll allow this cut and paste to speak for itself:

Dear FIDE Ratings Administrators,



1. Ratings Reports



The Australian Chess Federation wishes to submit the following tournament reports for inclusion in the forthcoming FIDE Rating List.



Melbourne Chess Club Championship, Melbourne (AUS)
Dates: 07.02.05 - 10.04.05
Organiser: Malcolm Pyke
Web Site: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~chessmel/



Adelaide Cup, Adelaide (AUS)
Dates: 14.05.05 - 16.05.05
Organiser: Andrew Saint
Web Site: http://www.sachess.org/adelaidecup.htm



NSW Open Championship, Sydney (AUS)
Dates: 12.06.05 - 14.06.05
Organiser: Peter Cassettari
Web Site: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~nswca/index.htm



Victorian Open, Melbourne (AUS)
Dates: 11.06.05 - 13.06.05
Organiser: Gerrit Hartland
Web Site: http://www.boxhillchess.org.au/vicchess/ and
http://www.boxhillchess.org.au/vicchess/05vic_open.htm



Australian Masters, Melbourne (AUS)
Dates: 27.06.05 - 08.07.05
Organiser: Chris Depasquale
Web Site: -



Victorian Junior Masters, Melbourne (AUS)
Dates: 27.06.05 - 08.07.05
Organiser: David Cordover
Web Site: -



Australian Young Masters, Sydney (AUS)
Dates: 04.07.05 - 08.07.05
Organiser: Charles Zworestine
Web Site: http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl2b58/AustYoungMasters/



Australian Junior Masters, Sydney (AUS)
Dates: 04.07.05 - 08.07.05
Organiser: Charles Zworestine
Web Site: http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl2b58/AustYoungMasters/



Queensland Championships, Brisbane (AUS)
Dates: 16.07.05 - 17.07.05
Organiser: Garvin Gray
Web Site: http://www.caq.org.au/htm/qldchpad.htm





Yours Sincerely,



IA Gary Bekker

FIDE Oceania Zone President

August 2005

Raises some interesting questions doesn't it??

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Rincewind
18-08-2005, 09:54 AM
Raises some interesting questions doesn't it??

Two immediately spring to mind (plus two others less immediately).

Who asked Gary to include the Vic Junior Masters in the list of events for FIDE rating?

Has anyone mentioned to Gary that the time control used and ratings of the participants makes the event ineligible for FIDE rating?



Or have the eligibility criteria changed?

Is this all moot anyway since one player scored a zero no no blocks for unrated players? (Though games between rated players would still be processed, right?)

Mischa
18-08-2005, 12:13 PM
DC assked Gary to submit and explain the situation...in hopes of them being understanding I think.

Bereaved
18-08-2005, 05:06 PM
Hello everyone,
But what of the dates specified??

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Rincewind
18-08-2005, 05:40 PM
But what of the dates specified??

True. I didn't even notice that. Something like 5-Jul to 8-Jul, wasn't it?

But other than as a point of pedantry, does that matter?

Bereaved
18-08-2005, 06:17 PM
Dear Rincewind,

With the other types of stipulations required for FIDE rating of an event, there is a mention of acceptable numbers of rounds on a given day to be rateable. Should that be exceeded, then the event is determined to be ineligible, hence why the event's dates may have been fudged

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Rincewind
18-08-2005, 06:33 PM
With the other types of stipulations required for FIDE rating of an event, there is a mention of acceptable numbers of rounds on a given day to be rateable. Should that be exceeded, then the event is determined to be ineligible, hence why the event's dates may have been fudged

Good point. I had assumed that it had been copied from the Vic Masters. Maybe Gary assuming they were run concurrently or something. From memory, the stipulation is on maximum total number of playing hours a day, of 12. I think you could sneak in 3 rounds a day using the minumum ratable time control. So while hypothetically that might have been the intent, is it a justifiable motivation?

PS please forgive me not verifying my facts. I might be totally off beam here. Hopefully, if I am, someone will correct me.

arosar
18-08-2005, 06:38 PM
I thought it was 2 rounds max per day?

AR

Rincewind
18-08-2005, 06:43 PM
I thought it was 2 rounds max per day?

Keep up your high standards of journalism, Amiel.

From the FIDE website...

B. Permanent Commissions
02. FIDE Rating Regulations (Qualification Commission)

3.0. Number of rounds per day

3.1

No more than three rounds per day and a total playing time of no more than 12 hours. (GA '95)

Lucena
18-08-2005, 07:13 PM
I think it's no more than 2 per day if you want to get a norm or something. I could be wrong though.

arosar
18-08-2005, 07:45 PM
THat's exactly right....I was actually reminded of the Doeberl situation and why you couldn't earn norms there.

AR

Libby
18-08-2005, 08:27 PM
Dear Rincewind,

With the other types of stipulations required for FIDE rating of an event, there is a mention of acceptable numbers of rounds on a given day to be rateable. Should that be exceeded, then the event is determined to be ineligible, hence why the event's dates may have been fudged

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

It's very reassuring to see that getting it wrong in the first place can all be fixed by fudging things ???

I'm assuming there are rules about the way FIDE events can be conducted for a reason?

If I'm looking like I'm being hardline it's probably because we have considered running a FIDE-rated event for juniors in the ACT but have discounted it (so far) because we haven't come up with a way for us to run it - lots of factors to consider for our committee - within the regulations amongst other things.

But if we can just fudge - and plead ignorance - OK :D

Probably save ourselves some time & effort too if we just phone through a few draws ...

All looks like chess is very professional and it's hard to imagine why we're not getting all this funding as a credible sport.

Rincewind
18-08-2005, 08:58 PM
THat's exactly right....I was actually reminded of the Doeberl situation and why you couldn't earn norms there.

Was anyone talking norms?

Garvinator
19-08-2005, 12:00 AM
Isnt it this tournament:

Victorian Junior Masters, Melbourne (AUS)
Dates: 27.06.05 - 08.07.05
Organiser: David Cordover
Web Site: -

That was talked about earlier in this thread as being ineligible for fide rating due to the time control being 60/10 with players over 1800?

Rincewind
19-08-2005, 12:45 AM
Isnt it this tournament:

Victorian Junior Masters, Melbourne (AUS)
Dates: 27.06.05 - 08.07.05
Organiser: David Cordover
Web Site: -

That was talked about earlier in this thread as being ineligible for fide rating due to the time control being 60/10 with players over 1800?

I don't know why people say Queenslanders are slow. ;)

Garvinator
19-08-2005, 12:54 AM
I don't know why people say Queenslanders are slow. ;)
sorry what, i dont understand :P :whistle:

Just checking facts because of the person we are talking about, before shooting mouth off and getting burnt.

Rincewind
19-08-2005, 12:56 AM
sorry what, i dont understand :P :whistle:

Just checking facts because of the person we are talking about, before shooting mouth off and getting burnt.

Yes and life is like a box of chocolates.

Lucena
19-08-2005, 12:59 AM
Was anyone talking norms?

I was just thinking maybe Amiel was thinking it had to be no more than 2 for FIDE-rated ness, and he got it mixed up with being a criterion for norms, not FIDE rating.

Rincewind
19-08-2005, 01:03 AM
I was just thinking maybe Amiel was thinking it had to be no more than 2 for FIDE-rated ness, and he got it mixed up with being a criterion for norms, not FIDE rating.

Yes I get it, Gareth. That was why I replied to Amiel's post and not yours. Your post was fine. Amiel's post almost makes it sound like he knew what he was talking about. It did read to me a bit like an episode of Crossing Over.

arosar
19-08-2005, 07:23 AM
Yes I get it, Gareth. That was why I replied to Amiel's post and not yours. Your post was fine. Amiel's post almost makes it sound like he knew what he was talking about. It did read to me a bit like an episode of Crossing Over.

LOL! Geez...some of you blokes are desperate for a point.

Dude, calm down. So I got mixed up. If I wanted to I could have easily checked.

AR

Rincewind
19-08-2005, 07:55 AM
So I got mixed up. If I wanted to I could have easily checked.

Yes. Yes, you could have.

Garvinator
20-08-2005, 02:54 AM
So the only comment going to be made about this matter is macavity pointing out that David has put the vic junior masters in for fide rating?

Mischa
20-08-2005, 10:16 AM
What else needs to be said?

Garvinator
20-08-2005, 01:20 PM
What else needs to be said?
That the tournament should not be fide rated as it doesnt meet fide rating requirments, so why is it being allowed to be fide rated and why arent the ppl here who protested so much originally now arent protesting again and telling Gary to not fide rate the tournament.

pax
20-08-2005, 01:20 PM
I cannot imagine that FIDE would accept the tournament for rating. It was clearly played at a rate which FIDE considers to be rapid chess. If they were to accept it, they would be laying themselves open to valid protests (perhaps from players who lose rating points over the event).

There is no explanation beyond "we screwed up". I don't imagine will FIDE feel any compulsion to break it's own rules to make up for a certain organiser's mistake.

Garvinator
20-08-2005, 01:21 PM
I cannot imagine that FIDE would accept the tournament for rating. It was clearly played at a rate which FIDE considers to be rapid chess. If they were to accept it, they would be laying themselves open to valid protests (perhaps from players who lose rating points over the event).

There is no explanation beyond "we screwed up". I don't imagine will FIDE feel any compulsion to break it's own rules to make up for a certain organiser's mistake.
but fide would have to be 'aware' that the tournament was played at rapid chess rates.

klyall
07-10-2005, 05:39 PM
I cannot imagine that FIDE would accept the tournament for rating. It was clearly played at a rate which FIDE considers to be rapid chess. If they were to accept it, they would be laying themselves open to valid protests (perhaps from players who lose rating points over the event).

There is no explanation beyond "we screwed up". I don't imagine will FIDE feel any compulsion to break it's own rules to make up for a certain organiser's mistake.

I have just recieved an email from David Cordover indicating that the tournament has been rated by FIDE.

Garvinator
07-10-2005, 06:28 PM
I have just recieved an email from David Cordover indicating that the tournament has been rated by FIDE.
:snooty: :thumdown: :naughty:

oh well dont worry about any of fide's criteria for running tournaments then.

Lucena
07-10-2005, 07:17 PM
I have just recieved an email from David Cordover indicating that the tournament has been rated by FIDE.

:lol: That's pretty funny (at least in my opinion)

Rincewind
07-10-2005, 07:20 PM
My understanding is that the ACF was completely forthcoming regarding the details of the tournament and left the ball in FIDE's court as to whether they decided to rate the thing or not. Luckily (for the competitors) FIDE decided to do so. This is a good result in my opinion for everyone concerned, isn't it?

Lucena
07-10-2005, 07:45 PM
My understanding is that the ACF was completely forthcoming regarding the details of the tournament and left the ball in FIDE's court as to whether they decided to rate the thing or not. Luckily (for the competitors) FIDE decided to do so. This is a good result in my opinion for everyone concerned, isn't it?

Oh I don't deny it's good for the participants who wanted their games rated. I just thought it was funny that Fide would acquiesce like that.

Garvinator
08-10-2005, 12:06 AM
My understanding is that the ACF was completely forthcoming regarding the details of the tournament and left the ball in FIDE's court as to whether they decided to rate the thing or not. Luckily (for the competitors) FIDE decided to do so. This is a good result in my opinion for everyone concerned, isn't it?
i dont think it is good at all cause it just continues to make a mockery of fide's own regulations. Also what is going to stop David from just advertising anything, not living up to it and then it being passed anyways.

I think more should be made of the fact that fide were put in this position anyways. The tournament should not have even gotten to fide for their opinion. It was well known it didnt conform and should have been rejected by our fide rating officer.

Seems to be a culture problem in australian chess, using the word no.

Rincewind
08-10-2005, 08:37 AM
i dont think it is good at all cause it just continues to make a mockery of fide's own regulations. Also what is going to stop David from just advertising anything, not living up to it and then it being passed anyways.

I think more should be made of the fact that fide were put in this position anyways. The tournament should not have even gotten to fide for their opinion. It was well known it didnt conform and should have been rejected by our fide rating officer.

Seems to be a culture problem in australian chess, using the word no.

Yes I believe this does let DC 'off the hook' in some sense. However I don't believe it is the ACF Rating Officer's job to punish organisers for making a cock-up. The tournament was clearly outside the guidelines but had the players ratings been lower or the time control marginally longer then it would not have been.

The best of a bad lot approach was adopted in my opinion and to the good fortune of DC and the competitors, FIDE rated the tournament. I think we should all just move on now. Nothing more to see here.

four four two
08-10-2005, 09:53 AM
Well I think the question here that needs to be answered is will this be allowed to happen again? :hmm: If it becomes a semi-regular occurrence as opposed to a one off the other tournaments which are submitted to FIDE for ratings could have their credibility tainted by association. As for the ACF officer who is collecting the FIDE tournament results,they should be strict with maintaining standards set by FIDE,so that ALL tournaments adhere to the same current criteria. Another question I would like to know,who altered the published dates of DC's tournament ,was it DC or the ACF officer? :hmm:

Garvinator
08-10-2005, 10:18 AM
However I don't believe it is the ACF Rating Officer's job to punish organisers for making a cock-up.
Your right, it isnt the responsibility of the acf rating officer, it is the responsibility of the australian fide rating officer, which at the time was Gary Bekker and he was fully aware that this tournament didnt meet the criteria, but sent it on anyways.

Greg Canfell has now taken over this duty I understand, so I am interested in what Greg would do next time, cause there will be a next time :rolleyes:

Rincewind
08-10-2005, 12:17 PM
Your right, it isnt the responsibility of the acf rating officer, it is the responsibility of the australian fide rating officer, which at the time was Gary Bekker and he was fully aware that this tournament didnt meet the criteria, but sent it on anyways.

Greg Canfell has now taken over this duty I understand, so I am interested in what Greg would do next time, cause there will be a next time :rolleyes:

I meant Gary and I spoke to him about this very issue last weekend as he was DOPing the Ryde Eastwood Open. On this we (me and you) simply disagree. Judging by the way Gary handled it I would assume he disagrees with your position too. I don't know Greg's opinion but I believe he and Gary have been communicating on all FIDE rating matters for a little while now so he should be well aware of the situation.