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Chess Dad
13-01-2004, 11:59 AM
I thought I would let the BB know that the Aust Junior & Aust Schools Teams Championship website appears to be up and running. :D

The address is

http://www.nscom.net.au/2004ajcc/

the results of the first day of the schools championship have been posted & they are currently broadcasting a game between Kuan-Kuan Tian & Dusan Stojic.

The Australian Junior starts tomorrow \:D/

Good luck to all the kids

shaun
13-01-2004, 01:19 PM
The website looks good, but I'm a little confused. Shouldn't all Australian websites that deal with chess start with the address www.chesskit.com :?:

Bill Gletsos
13-01-2004, 01:28 PM
Good one Shaun. :D :D :D

chesslover
13-01-2004, 07:12 PM
The website looks good, but I'm a little confused. Shouldn't all Australian websites that deal with chess start with the address www.chesskit.com :?:

very very funny :D :D

good thing you are posting this now, for a couple of weeks earlier this post would have been deleted and the topic locked

chesslover
13-01-2004, 07:15 PM
what is the time diff between perth and sydney?

anyone caring to predict who will win?

Chess Dad
13-01-2004, 09:51 PM
Perth is 3 hours behind Sydney 8)

skip to my lou
13-01-2004, 09:54 PM
The website looks good, but I'm a little confused. Shouldn't all Australian websites that deal with chess start with the address www.chesskit.com :?:

Actually no, only websites that I make and are related to chess are on chesskit.com. So far there have only been two major things, one being Open 2002/03 and seconly, this Forum.

chesslover
13-01-2004, 09:58 PM
Perth is 3 hours behind Sydney 8)

thanks chess dad :)

chesslover
13-01-2004, 09:59 PM
The website looks good, but I'm a little confused. Shouldn't all Australian websites that deal with chess start with the address www.chesskit.com :?:

Actually no, only websites that I make and are related to chess are on chesskit.com. So far there have only been two major things, one being Open 2002/03 and this Forum.

even I who normally do not get sarcasm, know that Shaun was not being serious with this post and was being funny and sarcastic :rolleyes:

skip to my lou
13-01-2004, 10:22 PM
Chess Kit has existed for 4 years and hosted 2 Australian events, I find nothing funny in his post.

Bill Gletsos
13-01-2004, 10:33 PM
Shaun was implying that based on your self praise and your criticism of the Aus Champ website in the other thread it is therefore impossible for any chess site not hosted by chesskit to be good.

skip to my lou
13-01-2004, 10:40 PM
Actually, incorrect. There are many websites that have done live games / tournament websites much better than Chess Kit and may also be automated, and probably come with a heavy price tag.

Some examples are the X3D live coverage of Deep Fritz games, Wijk aan Zee tournament websites are usually excellent. Usually tournaments in Europe and America had and have excellent websites.

Garvinator
13-01-2004, 11:33 PM
please guys dont start a bill v Jeo ping pong match or it could end up bringing out kevins eraser again :evil:

Bill Gletsos
13-01-2004, 11:37 PM
Nope.
It just seemed to me like it did to CL that Jeo did not understand that Shaun was being sarcastic.

skip to my lou
13-01-2004, 11:51 PM
If he was trying to be sarcastic, good luck to him.

G'Night.

Kevin Bonham
14-01-2004, 03:07 AM
please guys dont start a bill v Jeo ping pong match or it could end up bringing out kevins eraser again :evil:

Or Paul's. :shock:

I was still procrastinating about that thread in Tournaments News when Paul locked it and deleted a pile of stuff. I agree with his decision and his reasons.

Bill vs Jeo seems to be even commoner now than Bill vs Matt.

Chess Dad
14-01-2004, 07:46 AM
To get this thread back on track :rolleyes:

Have you looked at the result of the senior open in the schools teams event.

NAME 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, TOTAL, PLACE
1 APPLECROSS SHS (WA) X,0.5,0.5,0.5,0,0,1.5,5
2 BRISBANE GRAMMAR (QLD) 3.5, X, 1.5, 2, 1.5, 1, 9.5, 4=
3 RADFORD COLLEGE (ACT) 3.5, 2.5, X, 1, 1.5, 1, 9.5, 4=
4 ST. PETERS COLLEGE (SA) 3.5, 2, 3, X, 1.5, 2.5, 12.5, 3

5 SYDNEY GRAMMAR (NSW) 4, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, X, 2, 13.5, 1
6 UNIVERSITY HS (VIC) 4, 3, 3, 1.5, 2, X, 13.5, 2

(sorry, could not get the table to display clearly)

with the previous discussion on team vs match points I thought this was interesting.

Does anyone know how this tie was resolved? (I am not in Perth)

Was it because Sydney Grammar Boards 1 & 2 beat University high 1 & 2 in their drawn match?

Or was it because University high lost one match?

Bill Gletsos
14-01-2004, 09:12 AM
The first tie break is match points.
Sydney Grammer won 4 and drew 1 match.
University HS won 3 drew 1 and lost 1.

Chess Dad
14-01-2004, 09:22 AM
Thanks Bill

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2004, 05:54 PM
Unlike the Aus Champs here seems to be very few comments being made about the current Aus Junior championships on the BB.

Chess Dad
16-01-2004, 06:48 PM
Yes, there does not seem to be much interest.

I suppose this is for a number of resaons:

1. Information is hard to come by (James hasn't rung me since the tournament started) (damn kids) :( I also find the web site difficult to use (where's Jeo ;) )

2. the regulars on the BB don't know the personalities and rivalries of participants (which there are quite a few and I imagine every bit as much as in the adult tournaments) :D

3. A lot of the big names are missing: Tomek, George (too old?) Ronald Yu etc which would have added spice for the BBers.

4.The field should start to sort out after todays round (4) so there should be some good match ups in the next few rounds where the "long term" rivals should start to meet :D

5. jenny Oliver doesn't have internet access :-'' (see you next week Jenny \:D/ )

6. There are no published games for us to look at and disect (even a non player like me likes going through the games).


There has been some interesting results though, with just about all the top seeds losing games to 1400/1500 rated players. ( A lot of the "old established" juniors have just as many problems with up & coming juniors as the adults do in weekenders)

I will see if I can get some gossip tonight for the BB.

Ian Rout
16-01-2004, 07:59 PM
I also find the web site difficult to use (where's Jeo ;) )

You can short circuit it a little if you go to

http://www.nscom.net.au/2004ajcc/rounds/ajcc/3/

(or replace 3 by the required round) and follow the directories from there.

Chess Dad
16-01-2004, 08:31 PM
I also find the web site difficult to use (where's Jeo ;) )

You can short circuit it a little if you go to

http://www.nscom.net.au/2004ajcc/rounds/ajcc/3/

(or replace 3 by the required round) and follow the directories from there.

Thanks Ian,

I have been doing something like that by changing the address but
that looks better for looking at all divisions. Trying to compare between rounds is very difficult.

I also miss a crosstable and pgn's etc

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2004, 08:43 PM
There has been some interesting results though, with just about all the top seeds losing games to 1400/1500 rated players. ( A lot of the "old established" juniors have just as many problems with up & coming juniors as the adults do in weekenders)

Wow, there have been a lot of upsets, especially in the 1700-1900 sort of range. Not a bad sign in terms of depth of the field - though juniors generally are often overconfident against lower-rated juniors.

Chess Dad
16-01-2004, 09:01 PM
There has been some interesting results though, with just about all the top seeds losing games to 1400/1500 rated players. ( A lot of the "old established" juniors have just as many problems with up & coming juniors as the adults do in weekenders)

Wow, there have been a lot of upsets, especially in the 1700-1900 sort of range. Not a bad sign in terms of depth of the field - though juniors generally are often overconfident against lower-rated juniors.

The kids in this range tend to have a lot of published games and there is an incredible amount of preparation done the morning of the games by the coaches. That is not to say that this overcomes natural ability.

The generation coming through now have all learnt how to use chessbase, find opponents games, practice every night on the internet and soak up new openings very quickly.

They are all extremely professional (but the trick is to keep them interested at this level as it gets harder every year)

Chess Dad
16-01-2004, 09:21 PM
WOW, :shock:

round 4 results are just up,


Justin Huang 1596 (u13?), has drawn with sam Chow 2130.

There are more upsets in this round as well. :(

peanbrain
16-01-2004, 10:21 PM
I also miss a crosstable and pgn's etc

Why are they missing?! :(

Chess Dad
16-01-2004, 10:31 PM
I also miss a crosstable and pgn's etc

Why are they missing?! :(

Don't know why there is no crosstable as they are using swissperfect? They are just not putting it on the website.

As far as Pgn's are concerned I would guess this is a manpower problem which is typical for any tournament.

Also, have you ever tried to read a game recorded by kids?.almost impossible, bad handwriting, missed moves, wrong notation ](*,)

Chess Dad
16-01-2004, 10:36 PM
Unlike the Aus Champs here seems to be very few comments being made about the current Aus Junior championships on the BB.

There you go Bill I have tried to get some discussion going :)

On another note, I had about 30 posts on the old BB, any chance of getting that added to my new post total, It might help me one day geeting off rookie status [-o<

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2004, 11:10 PM
Jeo updated the post counts for all those above 300 I think. He said he would update anyone elses post count if they requested it. Send him a private message requesting it.

I sent him a list of the post counts for all posters who had greater than 9 posts on the old BB. You had 27.

Ian Rout
17-01-2004, 11:18 AM
Thanks Ian,

I have been doing something like that by changing the address but
that looks better for looking at all divisions. Trying to compare between rounds is very difficult.



Here's something a bit more efficient:

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/2004AJCCeasylinks.htm

Chess Dad
17-01-2004, 11:30 AM
Here's something a bit more efficient:

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/2004AJCCeasylinks.htm

Thanks very much Ian, now that will make it much easier. :)

Whilst the round 5 draw does not appear to be on the web site I understand its the "big" game between Bourmistrov (W) & Chow (B) today.
It could determine who is in the best position to win the tournament. There have however been upsets everywhere.

I hope it is broadcast :-s

jenni
17-01-2004, 12:39 PM
OK - I now do have my comms sorted out and can put info up if you like.

I will have to be careful what I say! I have already had a box of chocs (that I was attempting to give as a gesture of appreciation), thrown back in my face and told that the only thing she wanted from me was for me to stop criticising WA!

I am not quitee sure what is going on with the kids. George is too old to play and obviously Tomek wouldn't play again - too much stress and nothing to gain. Why would Ronald play - he has already played the Aus Champs and the message has been clearly given that that one has priority.

Denis arrived 20 min late for his game and I have been told that the game was very short and then a draw was agreed. It would be nice to see a game, but we have only just had bulletin 1.......

There was a gigantic number of draws yesterday, but all very hard fought. e.g. Tamzin played Jessica Kinder for 5 hours was up a rook, but misplayed the end game and had to sack the rook in order to draw.

Heather I think is pretty safe now for the girls under 18. The other divisions are very competitive. The big match up is today between Sam and Denis - my money is on Sam, because I think Denis is too much in party mode.

Justin Huang is obviously performing strongly - funny boy Justin can perform really strongly and then have an awful weekender - maybe time is an issue for him.

There have been a lot of upsets - often very silly ones. e.g. Toshi was winning against Adam Guzel, but mucked up his end game and Adam forced a draw.

What positive things can I say?

Norbert Muller the DOP is running very well controlled comp. No-one would dare have a mobile phone go off or talk in the playing hall. Lovely and quiet and the kids really appreciate it.

The venue is fabulous - beautiful gardens and they have set up a pergola thing that all the little siblings can sit under - when the wind blows (which it does most afternoons), it is beautiful and cool. There are fields for the kids to play soccer and a swimming pool.

Lovely big hall for the kids to play in and a very big dininghall for analysis - they have now put partitions in, so there is some privacy for prep.

The canteen ladies are working very hard and we can now order food the day before and they have some spare food for emergency lunches.

There is a trip to the zoo and a free BBQ afterwards, although I think my kids want to head for the beach - ACT people are not exposed to waves very often.

I am enjoying networking - have had a long chat to Cordover re Mt Buller (it all sounds very exciting, although needs some fine tuning, particularly wrt the schools comp and girls comps.

Must get off now, as Shannon wants the computer for prep.

chesslover
17-01-2004, 05:45 PM
thanks Jenni for this update from Perth :)

Chess Dad
17-01-2004, 05:49 PM
The Bourmistrov Chow game is currently live if any one is interested

edit 7.30 pm

Bourmistrov won. The games is as follows in case it disappears off website:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. Nh4 e6 7. Nxf5 exf5 8. e3 g6 9. Bxc4 Bg7 10. O-O O-O 11. f3 Nbd7 12. Qc2 c5 13. Rd1 cxd4 14. exd4 Rc8 15. Bb3 Nb6 16. Bg5 Qd7 17. d5 Qd6 18. Qd3 a6 19. a5 Nbd7 20. Na4 Nc5 21. Nxc5 Qxc5+ 22. Be3 Qd6 23. Qd2 Nd7 24. Rac1 Qe5 25. Rxc8 Rxc8 26. d6 Qb5 27. Qd5 Qxd5 28. Bxd5 Bxb2 29. Bxb7 Rd8 30. Bxa6 Ra8 31. Bb5 Nf8 32. a6 Ne6 33. a7 f4 34. Bb6 1-0

jenni
18-01-2004, 02:58 AM
Denis arrived early for his game and looked pretty relaxed and confident all the way through.

Ilya went to the movies last night and had his head down sleeping before the game, so was another victim for Justin. Moulthun Ly took out Dusan Stojic and Gareth (who I don't think has had a decent win in 6 months), missed a 2 move tactic and went down to Jesse Jager. Michael Wei had a very long game against Junta Ikeda, but was comfortably winning in the end.

Heather still looks absolutely certain for the girls under 18, but I think the others have a way to go.

Denis will be feeling good tonight (and is busy partying before the rest day), but the little juniors are the ones to watch. He still has to play Justin and has already dropped 1/2 a point to Moulthun. However with all the other top seeds struggling, it is hard to see him having too much trouble.

Angela Song has a nose in front in the under 12, but has a lot of the good kids still to play and the girls under 12 is a mess.

Norbert Muller is starting to lose patience with the noise levels from the siblings and a parent was in tears today.

Phachara Wongwichit has shingles, but it doesn't seem to be affecting his play! Lots of the kids are coming down with colds, as are many of the coaches - all of whom seem to be working very hard,

peanbrain
18-01-2004, 12:00 PM
Norbert Muller is starting to lose patience with the noise levels from the siblings and a parent was in tears today.


Sounds like a lot of fun! :shock:

May be Nobert and his team can spend sometime today updating the infomation on the website. I see the info for round 5 and 6 are all over the place.

Draws not published till after the game has concluded and no cross tables. Hard to get spectators excited and involved until the organiors accept that timely infomation on official website is just one of the most basic requirement. Something that ACF should ensure all future event organisors must be committed to. :(

Ian Rout
18-01-2004, 01:44 PM
I also miss a crosstable and pgn's etc

Why are they missing?! :(

Also, have you ever tried to read a game recorded by kids?.almost impossible, bad handwriting, missed moves, wrong notation ](*,)

The first three rounds' games are up and Chess Dad's comment is borne out by the fact that the most common strategem is not the IQP or the minority attack, or even the Scholars Mate or K-side attack, but the indicipherable move.

This is not only a problem for those entering and those following the games, not to mention archivists, it is a clear breach of Law 8.1 which requires maintenance of a legibile and accurate scoresheet. Evidently among the platoon of parents, coaches, sports psychologists, nutritionists, aromatherapists etc some players have been unable to find room for a literacy coach.

Perhaps in future Junior Championships (and adult championships for that matter) there should be an explicit provision that players should sit down and write out an accurate scoresheet after the game, on pain of a double forfeit.

arosar
18-01-2004, 02:05 PM
This Moulthun Ly kid is really impressive. I saw him down in SA. He held IM Solo to a draw in the rapid. Talented kid.

AR

peanbrain
18-01-2004, 07:08 PM
I also miss a crosstable and pgn's etc

Why are they missing?! :(

Also, have you ever tried to read a game recorded by kids?.almost impossible, bad handwriting, missed moves, wrong notation ](*,)


This is not only a problem for those entering and those following the games, not to mention archivists, it is a clear breach of Law 8.1 which requires maintenance of a legibile and accurate scoresheet. Evidently among the platoon of parents, coaches, sports psychologists, nutritionists, aromatherapists etc some players have been unable to find room for a literacy coach.


I don't believe the reason for not having the games and other infomation up on the official website is anything to do with the state of scoresheets. We've all played most of these juniors before and with exception of a few new local WA players I'm sure most of the kids didn't travel all the way to Perth not knowing how to write their moves.

The fact is basic infomation such as crosstables and announcement of pairings before the start of the round were not even provided.

I just realised it's a rest day today, and still no draws and standings for girls under 18 group up. Has all the organisors gone to church?

By the way - I see the girls under 18 group has 11 players and total of 7 prizes, kind of excessive considering in the open group there are 63 players and just 7 prizes also.

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2004, 07:52 PM
I also miss a crosstable and pgn's etc

Why are they missing?! :(

Also, have you ever tried to read a game recorded by kids?.almost impossible, bad handwriting, missed moves, wrong notation ](*,)


This is not only a problem for those entering and those following the games, not to mention archivists, it is a clear breach of Law 8.1 which requires maintenance of a legibile and accurate scoresheet. Evidently among the platoon of parents, coaches, sports psychologists, nutritionists, aromatherapists etc some players have been unable to find room for a literacy coach.


I don't believe the reason for not having the games and other infomation up on the official website is anything to do with the state of scoresheets. We've all played most of these juniors before and with exception of a few new local WA players I'm sure most of the kids didn't travel all the way to Perth not knowing how to write their moves.

The fact is basic infomation such as crosstables and announcement of pairings before the start of the round were not even provided.

I just realised it's a rest day today, and still no draws and standings for girls under 18 group up. Has all the organisors gone to church?
I agree with your comments.
It is disappointing that the crosstables and the next round draw are not available prior to the start of the round.
Since jenni is in Perth, perhaps she could pass on these comments to the organisers and maybe they will rectify the situation, without giving her(the messanger) a hard time.
We can but hope. :rolleyes:

Kevin Bonham
18-01-2004, 08:35 PM
The Bourmistrov Chow game is currently live if any one is interested

edit 7.30 pm

Bourmistrov won. The games is as follows in case it disappears off website:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. Nh4 e6 7. Nxf5 exf5 8. e3 g6 9. Bxc4 Bg7 10. O-O O-O 11. f3 Nbd7 12. Qc2 c5 13. Rd1 cxd4 14. exd4 Rc8 15. Bb3 Nb6 16. Bg5 Qd7 17. d5 Qd6 18. Qd3 a6 19. a5 Nbd7 20. Na4 Nc5 21. Nxc5 Qxc5+ 22. Be3 Qd6 23. Qd2 Nd7 24. Rac1 Qe5 25. Rxc8 Rxc8 26. d6 Qb5 27. Qd5 Qxd5 28. Bxd5 Bxb2 29. Bxb7 Rd8 30. Bxa6 Ra8 31. Bb5 Nf8 32. a6 Ne6 33. a7 f4 34. Bb6 1-0

My impression is that Bourmistrov both outprepared and outplayed his opponent in this game. 8...g6 and 9...Bg7 is not normal to my knowledge (doesn't Black normally play 8...Bd6 or8 ...Bb4 here) and seemed to be a bit of a failure in that by the time Black managed to open the diagonal for Bg7, that big White pawn was already causing Black far too many problems.

Bill Gletsos
18-01-2004, 09:54 PM
No doubt a junior who has been taking posting lessons from MS. :rolleyes:
Normally he is the only one who would have so many censored words. ;)

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2004, 12:57 AM
the ARBITOR and the fact that he doesnt know the rules.

Want to give us an example? Most of us won't take it seriously if you don't.

skip to my lou
19-01-2004, 12:58 AM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

Brick wall... Your head... Any questions?

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2004, 01:02 AM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

Hang on, you're a junior, right? You should be happy about Glicko, makes your rating go up faster than the body count in a downtown gangwar. :shock:

BroadZ
19-01-2004, 01:58 AM
Bonham, heres your example

1) assigning the lots incorrectly for the girls tournament with the effect that all of the top seeds played each other in the first 4 rounds of the tournament. when IM Alex Davidovic pointed out this blunder Muller responded in an incredibly boorish fashion

2) in the schools champs there was a dispute over a touch move incident, there were no witnesses(it was one kids word against another) and yet for some inexplicable reason Muller decided that the kid would have to move the piece, maybe he should read the rules...

3) its against acf regulations to have these championships in a venue without aircon

im sure theres many more things Muller has slipped by all of us, keep a look out

BroadZ
19-01-2004, 02:00 AM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

Hang on, you're a junior, right? You should be happy about Glicko, makes your rating go up faster than the body count in a downtown gangwar. :shock:

just muckin around bonham, ive got no problem with him

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2004, 03:23 AM
Bonham, heres your example

Thank you!


1) assigning the lots incorrectly for the girls tournament with the effect that all of the top seeds played each other in the first 4 rounds of the tournament.

Open Girls is a round robin. All he's done is follow the standard Berger tables with the seedings as the numbers, which is what Swiss Perfect does if you use it to do a round robin. In one sense it does not matter because everyone plays everyone anyway, but it does mean players get long runs of easy and hard opponents. You can get around this using SP by doing a random draw at the start of the event and putting in those numbers as international ratings. However if you do that there's the risk of the random draw unfairly favouring one of the top players, for instance one top seed might draw White against all the other top seeds. For a more exciting tournament, you can use the same round 1 first up, and then play rounds 2-11 in the reverse order to that given, but then you need to enter all the rounds (after round 1) manually. Really not that big a deal.


2) in the schools champs there was a dispute over a touch move incident, there were no witnesses(it was one kids word against another) and yet for some inexplicable reason Muller decided that the kid would have to move the piece, maybe he should read the rules...


No, you should - there are no rules to cover this situation, it is up to the arbiter to decide what to do and who to believe when it is one player's word against another. As a general rule, the player who denies touching the piece is more likely to be lying - juniors are more likely to lie to save themselves from trouble than to get the opponent into it. I don't usually enforce touchmove in this situation unless the player has been in the same situation before, but it's up to the individual arbiter and their judgement of what has happened.


3) its against acf regulations to have these championships in a venue without aircon

News to me - at least, it's not in the by-laws, can't remember if it was a bid condition or not. This is an important issue, but it's an organisational issue, not an arbiting one.

Ian Rout
19-01-2004, 08:01 AM
assigning the lots incorrectly for the girls tournament with the effect that all of the top see
Open Girls is a round robin. All he's done is follow the standard Berger tables with the seedings as the numbers, which is what Swiss Perfect does if you use it to do a round robin. In one sense it does not matter because everyone plays everyone anyway, but it does mean players get long runs of easy and hard opponents. You can get around this using SP by doing a random draw at the start of the event and putting in those numbers as international ratings. However if you do that there's the risk of the random draw unfairly favouring one of the top players, for instance one top seed might draw White against all the other top seeds. For a more exciting tournament, you can use the same round 1 first up, and then play rounds 2-11 in the reverse order to that given, but then you need to enter all the rounds (after round 1) manually. Really not that big a deal.



Not entirely sure I'd agree with this analysis. The point that you eventually play everybody is true so it limits the damage, but it is sub-optimal. In particular number 1 plays 2, 3 and 4 in the first four rounds so it could all be over by then, also 1 gets a guaranteed White against 2.







As a general rule, the player who denies touching the piece is more likely to be lying - juniors are more likely to lie to save themselves from trouble than to get the opponent into it.


Can't really agree here either. There may be a shade of a majority in that direction but factor in claims that are wrong but honest, in that the player did not hear "J'adoube" or thought the player had touched the piece when they hadn't, and it's close enough to 50:50 for the presumption of innocence to be the dominating principle in the absence of other evidence.

Remember that in football, cricket etc, which many chess players also play, it is a normal part of the game to get an advantage by putting one over on the ref, and players are coached accordingly. They don't necessarily consider it serious cheating to do the same in chess.

arosar
19-01-2004, 08:29 AM
This is just soo delicious for a Monday morning! C'mon BroadZ...keep 'em coming!! Just ignore me mate Gletsos.

And we expect more goss from you too jenni.

AR

Chess Dad
19-01-2004, 08:39 AM
This is just soo delicious for a Monday morning! C'mon BroadZ...keep 'em coming!! Just ignore me mate Gletsos.

And we expect more goss from you too jenni.

AR

I thought you would like this AR.

This sounds a bit like figja I think it was from the old BB on the deleted junior threads. :-k

Hasn't got the same accent though.

arosar
19-01-2004, 09:18 AM
You got any goss there Johnno?

AR

bobby1972
19-01-2004, 09:28 AM
can some one just tell me the scores please,thanks

arosar
19-01-2004, 09:49 AM
Actually, on a more serious note - I reckon BroadZ has a legit complaint re the arbitor. If there was no witness - then the decision should have been 'play on' with no penalty. When these arbiters begin to behave like Nostradamus, that's it - we're buggered.

AR

Chess Dad
19-01-2004, 10:02 AM
can some one just tell me the scores please,thanks

After Round 5

Open

1-2 HUANG, JUSTIN NSW 1596 4.5
BOURMISTROV, DENIS VIC 2030 4.5
3-8 WONGWITCHIT, PHACHARA QLD 1773 4
JAGER, JESSE VIC 1598 4
HU, JASON NSW 1590 4
OBST, JAMES SA 1539 4
LY, MOULTHUN QLD 1646 4
NEEMAN, JEREMY ACT 1548 4

Girls u18

1-2 HUDDLESTON, HEATHER NSW 1616 5
IKEDA, MIONA ACT 1110 5
3-5 HARRIS, REBECCA NSW 1426 3.5
OLIVER, TAMZIN ACT 1007 3.5
HICKMAN, CASEY VIC 1255 3.5

under 12

1 SONG, ANGELA NSW 1521 4.5
2-6 BROWN, ANDREW ACT 1267 4
FINKE, KELVIN QLD 1374 4
WU, EDWIN NSW 1277 4
LIN, ZHIGEN VIC 1479 4
XU, WILLIAM NSW 1223 4

under 12 girls

1-4 NG, DEBORAH NSW 627 4
SMITH, KAYLEIGH ACT 951 4
LAUDER, NATASHA VIC 925 4
WANG, SHU-YU VIC 799 4

the easiest way to check is usings Ians AJCC Index at

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/2004AJCCeasylinks.htm

Chess Dad
19-01-2004, 10:04 AM
You got any goss there Johnno?
AR
No.

sorry AR

arosar
19-01-2004, 10:08 AM
No.

sorry AR

Men!

AR

peanbrain
19-01-2004, 10:11 AM
Well, from Jenni's track record on this BB I doubt anyone would question her credentials in junior chess and her communication style. It appears the organisors in WA just not able to take constructive feedback and make changes as necessay.

Venue with no aircon with 40 degrees temperture is just not on - if what BroadZ said is true. Did ACF not checked the venue before awarding the event to WA?? :shock: Little wonder most of the top seeds are playing badly. Also what's with the live games - each day we get one borad for different age group and not knowing in adavnce who the players are ... like a bloody lottery!!

I just checked the official website again and the Girls Under 18s draw is still showing draws for the Open Under 12s. Also do they not have sofeware to convert these captured games into PGNs?? And since they are using swissperfect, how hard is it to print a crosstable?! [-X

It is a shame that majority of the players had to travel so far away to participate in this event while spectators all around Australia are kept in the dark to the competition in progress. We had similar problems with the communication aspect of this year's Australian Champs at the beginning, but great to see organisors improved all aspects of their administration throughout, and accepted criticisms and made real efforts to improve. Afraid I can't say the same for our WA organisors so far!

Bill Gletsos
19-01-2004, 10:46 AM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here
What a charming little tart you are. :rolleyes:

arosar
19-01-2004, 10:50 AM
Bill....calm down mate. He's just upset OK. Don't go traumatising juniors. Give 'em a bit of a chance.

AR

Bill Gletsos
19-01-2004, 10:54 AM
Bill....calm down mate. He's just upset OK. Don't go traumatising juniors. Give 'em a bit of a chance.

AR
All things considered I thought that my response was rather mild. ;)

peanbrain
19-01-2004, 06:04 PM
I am looking forward to the update report from broadZ today. =P~

I think his/her coverage of the event so far is far more interesting than the official website....

It appears Jeo and gandalf were worrying over nothing during the earlier stages of our language on this BB may have lasting effect on the young ... seems we have a few more tricks to learn from these juniors!! :oops:

BTW - what happened to gandalf?! I hope he's not playing the aussie juniors?! :P

ursogr8
19-01-2004, 06:36 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here
What a charming little tart you are. :rolleyes:

Bill

Here is a maths puzzle a bit easier than Barry's.
What are the odds that BroadZ is from NSW?

Hint: Can Qlder's and Mexicans usually write as well as BroadZ.

starter

arosar
19-01-2004, 06:46 PM
And why not from ACT?

AR

ursogr8
19-01-2004, 06:57 PM
And why not from ACT?

AR

arosar
Mate. Matey. Maaaaate.
You are on your own when the ACT rep. who went to W.A. reads this suggestion of yours.

starter

chesslover
19-01-2004, 07:14 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

This is rude, crude and offensive.

Why is this person not given a warning, and suspended? :? :?

peanbrain
19-01-2004, 07:23 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

This is rude, crude and offensive.

Why is this person not given a warning, and suspended? :? :?

I don't think "censored" is such a dirty word?! ;)

chesslover
19-01-2004, 08:22 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

This is rude, crude and offensive.

Why is this person not given a warning, and suspended? :? :?

I don't think "censored" is such a dirty word?! ;)

no, but the word that this foul mouth used was not the word censored.

he used disgusting and filthy words which is why the word was censored. This amount of foul language is not really a good example for junior chess players. :x

I thought there was a policy that juniors who were selected should behave appropriately? If so I hope this foul mouted crude disgrace will not be selected in any junior australian team

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2004, 09:23 PM
Not entirely sure I'd agree with this analysis. The point that you eventually play everybody is true so it limits the damage, but it is sub-optimal. In particular number 1 plays 2, 3 and 4 in the first four rounds so it could all be over by then, also 1 gets a guaranteed White against 2.

Good point. If you're going to use the Berger tables in any form a draw for whether you flip all the colours is very desirable. It's a defect of SP that it doesn't allow for this and therefore the SP round robin option should not be used for a seeded tournament.

Reverse ferret time - +1 to BroadZ. #-o


Can't really agree here either. There may be a shade of a majority in that direction but factor in claims that are wrong but honest, in that the player did not hear "J'adoube" or thought the player had touched the piece when they hadn't, and it's close enough to 50:50 for the presumption of innocence to be the dominating principle in the absence of other evidence.

Good point again - I'm not sure we're actually disagreeing here, I just didn't mention the many cases where these things are actually no-one lying, but both players interpreting an unclear situation to their benefit (this is quite common) as you suggest. I did say that I personally don't enforce touchmove in these cases (even when I think it's overwhelmingly likely the player is lying) - but where a particular junior develops a pattern of it against multiple opponents I generally will. It remains the case that there is nothing in the rules on all this.


Remember that in football, cricket etc, which many chess players also play, it is a normal part of the game to get an advantage by putting one over on the ref, and players are coached accordingly. They don't necessarily consider it serious cheating to do the same in chess.

Maybe the juniors I've dealt with are just a bit too sweet and innocent by comparison. Anyone here ever played some one, especially a junior, who has "put one over the ref" to make a false charge in this manner? If so just give the story - leave out the names please.

Bill Gletsos
19-01-2004, 09:42 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here
What a charming little tart you are. :rolleyes:

Bill

Here is a maths puzzle a bit easier than Barry's.
What are the odds that BroadZ is from NSW?

Hint: Can Qlder's and Mexicans usually write as well as BroadZ.

starter
You really need to work harder starter. ;)
Broadz profile says they are from Melbourne.

ursogr8
19-01-2004, 09:50 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here
What a charming little tart you are. :rolleyes:

Bill

Here is a maths puzzle a bit easier than Barry's.
What are the odds that BroadZ is from NSW?

Hint: Can Qlder's and Mexicans usually write as well as BroadZ.

starter
You really need to work harder starter. ;)
Broadz profile says they are from Melbourne.

:oops: :oops: :oops:

Would you believe that is a decoy by BroadZ?

starter

Bill Gletsos
19-01-2004, 10:00 PM
:oops: :oops: :oops:

Would you believe that is a decoy by BroadZ?

:D :D :D

skip to my lou
19-01-2004, 10:03 PM
[censored] the censorship on this board, and [censored] you too gletsos - you [censored] up the rating system - yes, thats right, im [censored] bout everythin here

This is rude, crude and offensive.

Why is this person not given a warning, and suspended? :? :?

LOL, shut up idiot.

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2004, 10:13 PM
I thought there was a policy that juniors who were selected should behave appropriately? If so I hope this foul mouted crude disgrace will not be selected in any junior australian team

That is only a policy that applies while they are actually on assignment.

Bill Gletsos
19-01-2004, 11:21 PM
I notice the web page is still screwed up with regards the girls open, junior U12 and the girls U12 results and standings web pages.
In fact this will continue for the remaining rounds unless the web page links which are incorrect are not fixed.

jenni
20-01-2004, 12:33 AM
[quote] 3) its against acf regulations to have these championships in a venue without aircon

News to me - at least, it's not in the by-laws, can't remember if it was a bid condition or not. This is an important issue, but it's an organisational issue, not an arbiting one.

The schools comp in Adelaide in 2000 was very hot and after that it was agreed that venues should always be air-conditioned. I think the problem is that these things get forgotten - and the WA bid was a bit on the scant side, so not easy to determine whether these things existed or not.

It was indeed around 40 on the first day of the schools comp and the schools comp ran all day, so the first 2 rounds were very hot. I got the teams I was looking after to get rid of shoes and socks and on the second day the ACT high school team abandoned uniforms. It hasn't been as bad for the Aus juniors, as the rounds are in the afternoon and there is a lovely breeze every afternoon. It is actually quite chilly at the moment, so heat is not an issue.

We held a parents and coaches meeting on the second day of the schools comp (it has become common to have one). The most important issue was the concept of the schools comp at Mt Buller, but we also discussed what the framework of the schools comp should be e.g. aircon, food available etc. When I get back to Canberra I will be writing up the minutes and sending them to Kerry Stead,as the ACF rep present at the meeting.

The idea was to get procedures (bylaws?) drawn up, which can then be handed to states who are considering bidding, so that they know in advance what they are supposed to do.

With the girls under 18, I am not sure what happened,as I was at the airport putting one of the ACT primary school girls on a plane. (Did anyone notice that the ACT won the Girls Primary division? The first time the ACT has won a division in the schools comp!) Anyway I was told that Norbert was very co-operative in trying to create a fairer round robin. There were a couple of goes at it and in the end Norbert suggested using the software to do the round robin. I think because the girls were put in in seeded order, we ended up with the same problem that Alex Davidovic had originally identified. Anyway the girls seem happy with it, which is the important thing.

Amy Evans beat Rebecca Harris today, which definitely hands it to Heather on a platter. It does make the Under 16 more interesting, with Rebecca struggling a bit to hang onto that.

Denis Bourmistrov is still looking very relaxed and confident. I found out why he was late - round 2 and 3 were on the same day and Denis thought round 3 started at 3pm, instead of 2pm. Someone phoned and let him know and fortunately he is stayiing close to the venue, so was able to get there quickly (but still 20 min late).

The other top seeds are starting to recover a little and it will be interesting to see whether the very young juniors can hold them out!

Kevin Bonham
20-01-2004, 01:50 AM
Anyway I was told that Norbert was very co-operative in trying to create a fairer round robin. There were a couple of goes at it and in the end Norbert suggested using the software to do the round robin. I think because the girls were put in in seeded order, we ended up with the same problem that Alex Davidovic had originally identified. Anyway the girls seem happy with it, which is the important thing.

I tend to agree with the latter. And I am rather more inclined to accept your version of what Norbert tried than that of someone who comes flying in here swearing about everything.

jenni
20-01-2004, 12:34 PM
I got bored yesterday and decided to create a swiss perfect tournament for the under 18. Here is the cross table - I'll put one up each day. If anyone notices any mistakes, please let me know!




2004 aus juniors - Round 6
Cross Table
No Name Feder Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6

1 Bourmistrov, Denis VIC 42:W 36:W 12:D 39:W 8:W 5:W
2 Hu, Jason NSW 52:W 14:W 25:D 7:D 10:W 9:W
3 Neeman, Jeremy ACT 56:W 10:D 38:W 6:D 20:W 11:W
4 Obst, James SA 48:W 21:W 13:L 28:W 25:W 12:W
5 Huang, Justin NSW 53:W 6:W 9:W 8:D 26:W 1:L
6 Wei, Michael ACT 24:W 5:L 42:W 3:D 21:W 19:W
7 Suttor, Vincent NSW 43:W 22:W 11:D 2:D 19:D 23:W
8 Chow, Samuel VIC 37:W 30:W 29:W 5:D 1:L 18:W
9 Wongwichit, Phachara QLD 16:W 17:W 5:L 27:W 15:W 2:L
10 Yu, Michael NSW 44:W 3:D 18:W 19:D 2:L 26:W
11 Jager, Jesse VIC 27:W 26:W 7:D 25:D 13:W 3:L
12 Ly, Moulthun QLD 55:W 60:W 1:D 13:D 14:W 4:L
13 Oliver, Gareth ACT 41:D 34:W 4:W 12:D 11:L 29:W
14 Stojic, Dusan VIC 49:W 2:L 35:W 30:W 12:L 31:W
15 Colic, Igor WA 18:L 56:W 22:W 40:W 9:L 32:W
16 Kaspar, Ric QLD 9:L 62:W 31:W 32:W 18:L 25:W
17 Vijayakumar, Rukman VIC 62:W 9:L 60:W 20:L 45:W 28:W
18 Stojic, Svetozar VIC 15:W 38:D 10:L 36:W 16:W 8:L
19 Oliver, Shannon ACT 54:W 28:W 39:D 10:D 7:D 6:L
20 Xie, Ken NSW 38:L 45:W 24:W 17:W 3:L 22:D
21 Ikeda, Junta ACT 40:W 4:L 61:W 23:D 6:L 27:W
22 Yu, Chris QLD 59:W 7:L 15:L 44:W 50:W 20:D
23 Viswanath, Ganesh WA 57:W 25:L 46:W 21:D 39:W 7:L
24 Donaldson, Thomas WA 6:L 53:W 20:L 55:D 40:W 39:W
25 Lattimore, Tor ACT 50:W 23:W 2:D 11:D 4:L 16:L
26 Zvedeniouk, Ilya NSW 47:W 11:L 43:W 29:W 5:L 10:L
27 Chu, Louis NSW 11:L 49:W 37:W 9:L 30:W 21:L
28 Song, Raymond NSW 35:W 19:L 44:W 4:L 43:W 17:L
29 Wang, Zhengbo WA 51:W 33:W 8:L 26:L 41:W 13:L
30 Ferris, Shaun VIC 46:W 8:L 33:W 14:L 27:L 51:W
31 Kimura, Toshi QLD 34:D 41:D 16:L 38:W 33:W 14:L
32 Cronan, James NSW 33:L 51:W 41:W 16:L 35:W 15:L
33 Wallis, Christopher VIC 32:W 29:L 30:L 61:W 31:L 49:W
34 Guzel, Adam NSW 31:D 13:L 54:D 49:D 47:W 37:D
35 Levin, Joshua NSW 28:L 59:W 14:L 46:W 32:L 53:W
36 Chapman, Mark J WA 58:W 1:L 40:D 18:L 49:D 50:W
37 Van Heerden, Daniel WA 8:L 55:D 27:L 57:W 38:W 34:D
38 Guo-Yuthok, Sherab ACT 20:W 18:D 3:L 31:L 37:L 57:W
39 Lugo, Ruperto VIC 45:W 61:W 19:D 1:L 23:L 24:L
40 Tse, Jeffrey NSW 21:L 48:W 36:D 15:L 24:L 56:W
41 Sreetharan, Kishore ACT 13:D 31:D 32:L 54:W 29:L 45:D
42 Holland, Dennis WA 1:L 58:W 6:L 45:L 55:W 44:D
43 Rozells, Nathan WA 7:L 44:W 26:L 51:W 28:L 46:D
44 Muthusamy, Reubban VIC 10:L 57:W 28:L 22:L 52:W 42:D
45 Maguire, Jesse ACT 39:L 20:L 62:W 42:W 17:L 41:D
46 Beltrami, Matthew ACT 30:L 47:W 23:L 35:L 61:W 43:D
47 Van Dijk, Devrim VIC 26:L 46:L 52:D 60:W 34:L 58:W
48 Kerksal, David 4:L 40:L 53:W 50:L 58:D 55:W
49 Tran, Christopher ACT 14:L 27:L 59:W 34:D 36:D 33:L
50 Haselgrove, Miles WA 25:L 54:D 55:D 48:W 22:L 36:L
51 Humphries, Ryan WA 29:L 32:L 56:W 43:L 54:W 30:L
52 McGowan, Daniel NSW 2:L 0: 47:D 58:D 44:L 61:W
53 Slack-Smith, Blair WA 5:L 24:L 48:L 62:W 60:W 35:L
54 Scott, Christopher WA 19:L 50:D 34:D 41:L 51:L 60:W
55 Martin, Richard VIC 12:L 37:D 50:D 24:D 42:L 48:L
56 Gevers, Jonathan 3:L 15:L 51:L 59:D 62:W 40:L
57 Andrews, Stephen WA 23:L 44:L 58:D 37:L 59:W 38:L
58 Vinciguerra, Andrew WA 36:L 42:L 57:D 52:D 48:D 47:L
59 Arnold, Matthew WA 22:L 35:L 49:L 56:D 57:L 62:W
60 Taylor, Paul 0:W 12:L 17:L 47:L 53:L 54:L
61 Rodin, Ben 63:+ 39:L 21:L 33:L 46:L 52:L
62 Ung, Josephine ACT 17:L 16:L 45:L 53:L 56:L 59:L
63 Saxon, Marc WA 61:- 0:L 0: 0: 0: 0:

by Swiss Perfect (TM) www.swissperfect.com

Ian Rout
20-01-2004, 01:33 PM
Anyway I was told that Norbert was very co-operative in trying to create a fairer round robin. There were a couple of goes at it and in the end Norbert suggested using the software to do the round robin. I think because the girls were put in in seeded order, we ended up with the same problem that Alex Davidovic had originally identified.

I thought there must be thousands of sites with round robin templates or instructions but on a quick cast round I couldn't call one up (though I'm sure they're out there), so I knocked up some quick notes.

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/miscellaneous/RoundRobin.htm

Not especially aesthetic (might edit it a bit at some point) but I think it might help next time anybody has to do the same thing in a hurry.

Ian Rout
20-01-2004, 01:33 PM
Anyway I was told that Norbert was very co-operative in trying to create a fairer round robin. There were a couple of goes at it and in the end Norbert suggested using the software to do the round robin. I think because the girls were put in in seeded order, we ended up with the same problem that Alex Davidovic had originally identified.

I thought there must be thousands of sites with round robin templates or instructions but on a quick cast round I couldn't call one up (though I'm sure they're out there), so I knocked up some quick notes.

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/miscellaneous/RoundRobin.htm

Not especially aesthetic (might edit it a bit at some point) but I think it might help next time anybody has to do the same thing in a hurry.

arosar
20-01-2004, 01:52 PM
Aahh...brilliant Mr Rout. That's what we needed. We play round robin tourns at Hyde Park - for money - but we could never figure out how to do the colours.

AR

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2004, 01:58 PM
There is a much simpler method that ctually generates the round robin berger tables as they are virtually always published.

1 10
2 9
3 8
4 7
5 6

The largest number is swapped to the other side and the number at the bottom right moves into the vacated position.

hence

10 6

The remaing numbers are then placed such that the numbers less than the 6 are placed underneath the 6 column and the numbers greater than the 6 under the 10 coulmn. The number following 9 is considered 1 not 10.

This provides round 2 as follows:

10 6
7 5
8 4
9 3
1 2

Now for round 3 the logic is:

10 swaps to the other side and the bottom right number moves into the vacated spot.

Hence

2 10

The remaining numbers are then placed such that the numbers greater than 2 are place beneath the 2 column and the numbers greater less than 2 are placed under the 10 column.

2 10
3 1
4 9
5 8
6 7


This procedure can be summariesed such that the 10 swaps sides in successive rounds. The number in the bottom right moves up to be the opponet for 10. The remaing numbers folow the opponent number of 10 such that they are placed in ascending order in a anticlockwise direction with the understanding that 1 follows 9 and 9 precedes 1.

Hence round 4 is therefore

10 7
8 6
9 5
1 4
2 3


round 5 is

3 10
4 2
5 1
6 9
7 8

and etc for the remaining rounds.

You do this procedure even if there are only 9 players not 10.
Player 10 is then simply considered the bye.

If there are an even numbers of players it should be noted that the top half of the numbers in this case 1-5 get 5 whites and 4 blacks and numbers 6-10 get 5 blacks and 4 whites.

I have know the above since I was a teenager.

I had always assumed this was general knowledge.

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2004, 02:13 PM
FWIW the "Berger" Tables have been in use since 1886.
FIDE has always called them Berger Tables after Johann Berger who published then in 1892, however they were first published in 1886 by Richard Schurig, so perhaps they should have been called the Schurig Tables.

Rincewind
20-01-2004, 02:14 PM
I have know the above since I was a teenager.

Hardly news then. :rolleyes:


I had always assumed this was general knowledge.

It is now. Great post! =D>

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2004, 02:58 PM
I have know the above since I was a teenager.

Hardly news then. :rolleyes:

I do not recall anyone ever showing me this.
I simply deduced it from just looking at the published tables.

Rincewind
20-01-2004, 03:16 PM
I have know the above since I was a teenager.

Hardly news then. :rolleyes:

I do not recall anyone ever showing me this.
I simply deduced it from just looking at the published tables.

And they say youth is wasted on the young. :D

peanbrain
20-01-2004, 03:40 PM
Looks like no live games today?!

The coverage of this competition has gone from bad to worse!

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2004, 03:44 PM
They appear to be showing Kelvin Finke 1374 V
Angela Song 1521 from the Junior U12

chesslover
20-01-2004, 10:26 PM
Looks like no live games today?!

The coverage of this competition has gone from bad to worse!

and to think that people used to complain about teh games coverage from the just finished Aust Champs ;)

Bill Gletsos
20-01-2004, 11:38 PM
I notice the web page is still screwed up with regards the girls open, junior U12 and the girls U12 results and standings web pages.
In fact this will continue for the remaining rounds unless the web page links which are incorrect are not fixed.

Well it finally looks like they have fixed the links.

BroadZ
21-01-2004, 12:41 AM
Anyway I was told that Norbert was very co-operative in trying to create a fairer round robin. There were a couple of goes at it and in the end Norbert suggested using the software to do the round robin. I think because the girls were put in in seeded order, we ended up with the same problem that Alex Davidovic had originally identified. Anyway the girls seem happy with it, which is the important thing.

I tend to agree with the latter. And I am rather more inclined to accept your version of what Norbert tried than that of someone who comes flying in here swearing about everything.



Norberts first response to the problem was just to be very rude to alex davidovic, when that failed, he went away and pretended to solve the problem but his "solution" was just as ridiculously bad as the origihnal problem.

jenni
21-01-2004, 01:01 AM
Nothing too exciting today. Angela is still keeping just ahead, Denis looking very comfortable and Heather totally in control of the girls under 18.

Lot of the kids (and coaches) down with colds, probably as a reult of the big swings in temperature.

One poor little 10 year old has suffered extreme sunburn and was walking around today with no shirt on and looking very sore.

Jeremy Neeman - one of our ACT boys and a late comer to chess is in second place and plays Bourmistrov tomorrow. Jeremy is home schooled and I suspect has put a lot of work into chess last year instead of doing all those boring subjects such as sewing and cooking, which are part of normal High School life,





2004 aus juniors - Round 7
Cross Table
No Name Feder Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

1. Chow, Samuel VIC 32:W 20:W 18:W 23:D 2:L 16:W 4:W
2. Bourmistrov, Denis VIC 33:W 21:W 19:D 17:W 1:W 23:W 24:W
3. Zvedeniouk, Ilya NSW 34:W 22:L 38:W 18:W 23:L 13:L 20:L
4. Wei, Michael ACT 35:W 23:L 33:W 29:D 15:W 26:W 1:L
5. Stojic, Dusan VIC 36:W 24:L 40:W 20:W 19:L 14:W 22:W
6. Oliver, Gareth ACT 37:D 45:W 30:W 19:D 22:L 18:W 41:W
7. Suttor, Vincent NSW 38:W 25:W 22:D 24:D 26:D 28:W 23:W
8. Xie, Ken NSW 39:L 48:W 35:W 27:W 29:L 25:D 28:W
9. Song, Raymond NSW 40:W 26:L 44:W 30:L 38:W 27:L 32:W
10. Wongwichit, Phachara QLD 41:W 27:W 23:L 53:W 47:W 24:L 19:L
11. Lattimore, Tor ACT 42:W 28:W 24:D 22:D 30:L 41:L 43:W
12. Cronan, James NSW 43:L 49:W 37:W 41:L 40:W 47:L 21:L
13. Yu, Michael NSW 44:W 29:D 16:W 26:D 24:L 3:W 47:W
14. Kimura, Toshi QLD 45:D 37:D 41:L 39:W 43:W 5:L 40:W
15. Ikeda, Junta ACT 46:W 30:L 62:W 28:D 4:L 53:W 26:W
16. Stojic, Svetozar VIC 47:W 39:D 13:L 21:W 41:W 1:L 35:W
17. Lugo, Ruperto VIC 48:W 62:W 26:D 2:L 28:L 35:L 45:W
18. Wang, Zhengbo WA 49:W 43:W 1:L 3:L 37:W 6:L 53:W
19. Ly, Moulthun QLD 50:W 63:W 2:D 6:D 5:W 30:L 10:W
20. Ferris, Shaun VIC 51:W 1:L 43:W 5:L 53:L 49:W 3:W
21. Chapman, Mark J WA 52:W 2:L 46:D 16:L 36:D 42:W 12:W
22. Jager, Jesse VIC 53:W 3:W 7:D 11:D 6:W 29:L 5:L
23. Huang, Justin NSW 54:W 4:W 10:W 1:D 3:W 2:L 7:L
24. Hu, Jason NSW 55:W 5:W 11:D 7:D 13:W 10:W 2:L
25. Yu, Chris QLD 56:W 7:L 47:L 44:W 42:W 8:D 27:W
26. Oliver, Shannon ACT 57:W 9:W 17:D 13:D 7:D 4:L 15:L
27. Vijayakumar, Rukman VIC 58:W 10:L 63:W 8:L 48:W 9:W 25:L
28. Viswanath, Ganesh WA 59:W 11:L 51:W 15:D 17:W 7:L 8:L
29. Neeman, Jeremy ACT 60:W 13:D 39:W 4:D 8:W 22:W 30:W
30. Obst, James SA 61:W 15:W 6:L 9:W 11:W 19:W 29:L
31. Saxon, Marc WA 62:- :L : : : : :
32. Van Heerden, Daniel WA 1:L 50:D 53:L 59:W 39:W 45:D 9:L
33. Holland, Dennis WA 2:L 52:W 4:L 48:L 50:W 44:D 38:L
34. Van Dijk, Devrim VIC 3:L 51:L 55:D 63:W 45:L 52:W 61:L
35. Donaldson, Thomas WA 4:L 54:W 8:L 50:D 46:W 17:W 16:L
36. Tran, Christopher ACT 5:L 53:L 56:W 45:D 21:D 43:L 57:W
37. Sreetharan, Kishore ACT 6:D 14:D 12:L 57:W 18:L 48:D 46:D
38. Rozells, Nathan WA 7:L 44:W 3:L 49:W 9:L 51:D 33:W
39. Guo-Yuthok, Sherab ACT 8:W 16:D 29:L 14:L 32:L 59:W 48:W
40. Levin, Joshua NSW 9:L 56:W 5:L 51:W 12:L 54:W 14:L
41. Kaspar, Ric QLD 10:L 58:W 14:W 12:W 16:L 11:W 6:L
42. Haselgrove, Miles WA 11:L 57:D 50:D 61:W 25:L 21:L 55:W
43. Wallis, Christopher VIC 12:W 18:L 20:L 62:W 14:L 36:W 11:L
44. Muthusamy, Reubban VIC 13:L 59:W 9:L 25:L 55:W 33:D 51:D
45. Guzel, Adam NSW 14:D 6:L 57:D 36:D 34:W 32:D 17:L
46. Tse, Jeffrey NSW 15:L 61:W 21:D 47:L 35:L 60:W 37:D
47. Colic, Igor WA 16:L 60:W 25:W 46:W 10:L 12:W 13:L
48. Maguire, Jesse ACT 17:L 8:L 58:W 33:W 27:L 37:D 39:L
49. Humphries, Ryan WA 18:L 12:L 60:W 38:L 57:W 20:L 54:W
50. Martin, Richard VIC 19:L 32:D 42:D 35:D 33:L 61:L 56:D
51. Beltrami, Matthew ACT 20:L 34:W 28:L 40:L 62:W 38:D 44:D
52. Vinciguerra, Andrew WA 21:L 33:L 59:D 55:D 61:D 34:L 62:W
53. Chu, Louis NSW 22:L 36:W 32:W 10:L 20:W 15:L 18:L
54. Slack-Smith, Blair WA 23:L 35:L 61:L 58:W 63:W 40:L 49:L
55. McGowan, Daniel NSW 24:L : 34:D 52:D 44:L 62:W 42:L
56. Arnold, Matthew WA 25:L 40:L 36:L 60:D 59:L 58:W 50:D
57. Scott, Christopher WA 26:L 42:D 45:D 37:L 49:L 63:W 36:L
58. Ung, Josephine ACT 27:L 41:L 48:L 54:L 60:L 56:L 63:L
59. Andrews, Stephen WA 28:L 44:L 52:D 32:L 56:W 39:L 60:W
60. Gevers, Jonathan 29:L 47:L 49:L 56:D 58:W 46:L 59:L
61. Kerksal, David 30:L 46:L 54:W 42:L 52:D 50:W 34:W
62. Rodin, Ben 31:+ 17:L 15:L 43:L 51:L 55:L 52:L
63. Taylor, Paul :W 19:L 27:L 34:L 54:L 57:L 58:W

by Swiss Perfect (TM) www.swissperfect.com

arosar
21-01-2004, 08:52 AM
Norberts first response to the problem was just to be very rude to alex davidovic . . .

What exactly did Norbert do (or didn't do)?


...when that failed, he went away and pretended to solve the problem but his "solution" was just as ridiculously bad as the origihnal problem. what a dick.

What was the "solution"?

AR

jenni
21-01-2004, 11:38 PM
In a bit if a shock result, Vincent Suttor beat Sam Chow, Jeremy Neeman drew with Denis Bourmistrov, leaving Denis only 1/2 point ahead and Jeremy and Vincent looking strong for the under 16. With 3 rounds still to go, anything could happen.

Luthien Russell (who hasn't had a good comp), beat Kayleigh Smith today, leaving Deborah Ng clear leader in the girls Under 12. Angela looks strong for the open under 12, after Andrew Brown allowed his queen to be trapped today.

I have done a little more investigation of Broadz comments. It appears the Norbert was initially unreceptive to Alex Davidovic. Probably didn't know who he was and thought he was just a pushy parent. After a disputes committee was formed, Norbert co-operated fully in trying to get the draw fixed.

2004 aus juniors - Round 8
Cross Table
No Name Feder Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

1. Chow, Samuel VIC 32:W 20:W 18:W 23:D 2:L 16:W 4:W 7:L
2. Bourmistrov, Denis VIC 33:W 21:W 19:D 17:W 1:W 23:W 24:W 29:D
3. Zvedeniouk, Ilya NSW 34:W 22:L 38:W 18:W 23:L 13:L 20:L 43:W
4. Wei, Michael ACT 35:W 23:L 33:W 29:D 15:W 26:W 1:L 16:D
5. Stojic, Dusan VIC 36:W 24:L 40:W 20:W 19:L 14:W 22:W 30:W
6. Oliver, Gareth ACT 37:D 45:W 30:W 19:D 22:L 18:W 41:W 24:W
7. Suttor, Vincent NSW 38:W 25:W 22:D 24:D 26:D 28:W 23:W 1:W
8. Xie, Ken NSW 39:L 48:W 35:W 27:W 29:L 25:D 28:W 23:L
9. Song, Raymond NSW 40:W 26:L 44:W 30:L 38:W 27:L 32:W 22:L
10. Wongwichit, Phachara QLD 41:W 27:W 23:L 53:W 47:W 24:L 19:L 21:W
11. Lattimore, Tor ACT 42:W 28:W 24:D 22:D 30:L 41:L 43:W 20:D
12. Cronan, James NSW 43:L 49:W 37:W 41:L 40:W 47:L 21:L 45:W
13. Yu, Michael NSW 44:W 29:D 16:W 26:D 24:L 3:W 47:W 19:W
14. Kimura, Toshi QLD 45:D 37:D 41:L 39:W 43:W 5:L 40:W 27:D
15. Ikeda, Junta ACT 46:W 30:L 62:W 28:D 4:L 53:W 26:W 25:W
16. Stojic, Svetozar VIC 47:W 39:D 13:L 21:W 41:W 1:L 35:W 4:D
17. Lugo, Ruperto VIC 48:W 62:W 26:D 2:L 28:L 35:L 45:W 39:W
18. Wang, Zhengbo WA 49:W 43:W 1:L 3:L 37:W 6:L 53:W 41:W
19. Ly, Moulthun QLD 50:W 63:W 2:D 6:D 5:W 30:L 10:W 13:L
20. Ferris, Shaun VIC 51:W 1:L 43:W 5:L 53:L 49:W 3:W 11:D
21. Chapman, Mark J WA 52:W 2:L 46:D 16:L 36:D 42:W 12:W 10:L
22. Jager, Jesse VIC 53:W 3:W 7:D 11:D 6:W 29:L 5:L 9:W
23. Huang, Justin NSW 54:W 4:W 10:W 1:D 3:W 2:L 7:L 8:W
24. Hu, Jason NSW 55:W 5:W 11:D 7:D 13:W 10:W 2:L 6:L
25. Yu, Chris QLD 56:W 7:L 47:L 44:W 42:W 8:D 27:W 15:L
26. Oliver, Shannon ACT 57:W 9:W 17:D 13:D 7:D 4:L 15:L 47:L
27. Vijayakumar, Rukman VIC 58:W 10:L 63:W 8:L 48:W 9:W 25:L 14:D
28. Viswanath, Ganesh WA 59:W 11:L 51:W 15:D 17:W 7:L 8:L 38:D
29. Neeman, Jeremy ACT 60:W 13:D 39:W 4:D 8:W 22:W 30:W 2:D
30. Obst, James SA 61:W 15:W 6:L 9:W 11:W 19:W 29:L 5:L
31. Saxon, Marc WA 62:- :L : : : : : :
32. Van Heerden, Daniel WA 1:L 50:D 53:L 59:W 39:W 45:D 9:L 49:W
33. Holland, Dennis WA 2:L 52:W 4:L 48:L 50:W 44:D 38:L 34:L
34. Van Dijk, Devrim VIC 3:L 51:L 55:D 63:W 45:L 52:W 61:L 33:W
35. Donaldson, Thomas WA 4:L 54:W 8:L 50:D 46:W 17:W 16:L 61:W
36. Tran, Christopher ACT 5:L 53:L 56:W 45:D 21:D 43:L 57:W 51:W
37. Sreetharan, Kishore ACT 6:D 14:D 12:L 57:W 18:L 48:D 46:D 44:D
38. Rozells, Nathan WA 7:L 44:W 3:L 49:W 9:L 51:D 33:W 28:D
39. Guo-Yuthok, Sherab ACT 8:W 16:D 29:L 14:L 32:L 59:W 48:W 17:L
40. Levin, Joshua NSW 9:L 56:W 5:L 51:W 12:L 54:W 14:L 46:W
41. Kaspar, Ric QLD 10:L 58:W 14:W 12:W 16:L 11:W 6:L 18:L
42. Haselgrove, Miles WA 11:L 57:D 50:D 61:W 25:L 21:L 55:W 53:D
43. Wallis, Christopher VIC 12:W 18:L 20:L 62:W 14:L 36:W 11:L 3:L
44. Muthusamy, Reubban VIC 13:L 59:W 9:L 25:L 55:W 33:D 51:D 37:D
45. Guzel, Adam NSW 14:D 6:L 57:D 36:D 34:W 32:D 17:L 12:L
46. Tse, Jeffrey NSW 15:L 61:W 21:D 47:L 35:L 60:W 37:D 40:L
47. Colic, Igor WA 16:L 60:W 25:W 46:W 10:L 12:W 13:L 26:W
48. Maguire, Jesse ACT 17:L 8:L 58:W 33:W 27:L 37:D 39:L 52:D
49. Humphries, Ryan WA 18:L 12:L 60:W 38:L 57:W 20:L 54:W 32:L
50. Martin, Richard VIC 19:L 32:D 42:D 35:D 33:L 61:L 56:D 57:D
51. Beltrami, Matthew ACT 20:L 34:W 28:L 40:L 62:W 38:D 44:D 36:L
52. Vinciguerra, Andrew WA 21:L 33:L 59:D 55:D 61:D 34:L 62:W 48:D
53. Chu, Louis NSW 22:L 36:W 32:W 10:L 20:W 15:L 18:L 42:D
54. Slack-Smith, Blair WA 23:L 35:L 61:L 58:W 63:W 40:L 49:L 60:W
55. McGowan, Daniel NSW 24:L : 34:D 52:D 44:L 62:W 42:L 59:W
56. Arnold, Matthew WA 25:L 40:L 36:L 60:D 59:L 58:W 50:D 63:D
57. Scott, Christopher WA 26:L 42:D 45:D 37:L 49:L 63:W 36:L 50:D
58. Ung, Josephine ACT 27:L 41:L 48:L 54:L 60:L 56:L 63:L 62:D
59. Andrews, Stephen WA 28:L 44:L 52:D 32:L 56:W 39:L 60:W 55:L
60. Gevers, Jonathan 29:L 47:L 49:L 56:D 58:W 46:L 59:L 54:L
61. Kerksal, David 30:L 46:L 54:W 42:L 52:D 50:W 34:W 35:L
62. Rodin, Ben 31:+ 17:L 15:L 43:L 51:L 55:L 52:L 58:D
63. Taylor, Paul :W 19:L 27:L 34:L 54:L 57:L 58:W 56:D

by Swiss Perfect (TM) www.swissperfect.com

jenni
24-01-2004, 12:09 PM
I am not sure if these are totally right, as I don't know the results in the lower boards, but the top ones are correct.

Dusan plays Denis today and I think Denis needs a win to ensure an outright win in the tournament.

Vincent plays Gareth and on current form you would have to back Vincent,

Sam plays Jeremy Neeman and normally I would back Sam, but Jeremy has been performing very well.

Justin Huang is looking good to hang on for the under 14 and maybe even the under 16.

Deborah Ng and Heather Huddleston look good for their divisions, with 2 ACT girls fighting it out for the under 10. Angela lost yesterday (in massive time trouble), but is still 1/2 a point ahead.

2004 aus juniors - Round 9
Standings
Place Name Feder Rtg Loc Score M-Buch. Buch. Progr.

1 Bourmistrov, Denis VIC 2030 7.5 40.5 51.0 40.0
2-3 Suttor, Vincent NSW 1828 7 37.0 48.5 35.5
Stojic, Dusan VIC 1863 7 35.0 46.0 32.0
4-7 Chow, Samuel VIC 2130 6.5 40.0 52.0 35.0
Neeman, Jeremy ACT 1548 6.5 39.0 49.0 36.0
Yu, Michael NSW 1736 6.5 37.0 48.0 32.5
Oliver, Gareth ACT 1844 6.5 35.0 45.5 32.0
8-10 Huang, Justin NSW 1596 6 41.0 51.5 34.5
Wei, Michael ACT 1870 6 37.5 47.5 30.0
Wongwichit, Phachara QLD 1773 6 34.5 44.0 31.0
11-20 Hu, Jason NSW 1590 5.5 44.0 55.5 33.0
Obst, James SA 1538 5.5 40.0 50.5 32.5
Ly, Moulthun QLD 1646 5.5 39.5 49.0 32.0
Stojic, Svetozar VIC 1700 5.5 36.5 46.5 28.5
Yu, Chris QLD 1589 5.5 33.5 44.0 26.0
Xie, Ken NSW 1802 5.5 32.5 42.5 27.0
Wang, Zhengbo WA 1682 5.5 32.5 42.0 27.5
Ikeda, Junta ACT 1705 5.5 32.0 39.5 28.0
Lattimore, Tor ACT 1765 5.5 31.5 41.0 28.5
Lugo, Ruperto VIC 1697 5.5 28.5 37.0 26.5
21-25 Jager, Jesse VIC 1598 5 41.0 51.5 30.5
Colic, Igor WA 1332 5 35.5 44.5 27.0
Chapman, Mark J WA 1639 5 33.0 43.5 23.0
Song, Raymond NSW 1790 5 31.5 41.0 25.0
Cronan, James NSW 1760 5 29.5 37.5 23.0
26-36 Oliver, Shannon ACT 1580 4.5 37.0 47.5 27.0
Zvedeniouk, Ilya NSW 1922 4.5 34.0 44.5 24.5
Ferris, Shaun VIC 1641 4.5 33.0 43.0 24.0
Donaldson, Thomas WA 1520 4.5 31.5 40.0 22.0
Vijayakumar, Rukman VIC 1577 4.5 31.5 38.0 26.0
Kimura, Toshi QLD 1723 4.5 30.5 41.0 23.5
Levin, Joshua NSW 1464 4.5 29.0 39.0 20.5
Muthusamy, Reubban VIC 1389 4.5 29.0 38.0 18.5
Tran, Christopher ACT 1516 4.5 28.0 38.5 18.0
Van Heerden, Daniel WA 1532 4.5 26.0 35.0 19.5
Van Dijk, Devrim VIC 1530 4.5 26.0 32.5 16.5
37-45 Kaspar, Ric QLD 1436 4 37.0 44.0 25.0
Viswanath, Ganesh WA 1551 4 34.5 44.0 25.0
Guzel, Adam NSW 1346 4 32.0 41.5 19.0
Wallis, Christopher VIC 1430 4 31.5 38.0 20.0
Sreetharan, Kishore ACT 1509 4 30.5 40.0 19.5
Rozells, Nathan WA 1497 4 30.0 40.0 20.0
Haselgrove, Miles WA 1434 4 29.0 37.0 18.0
McGowan, Daniel NSW 948 4 26.0 32.5 13.5
Vinciguerra, Andrew WA 1176 4 24.5 30.5 14.0
46-53 Chu, Louis NSW 1125 3.5 34.0 44.0 21.0
Guo-Yuthok, Sherab ACT 1482 3.5 33.5 42.5 20.0
Beltrami, Matthew ACT 1208 3.5 29.5 35.0 17.0
Holland, Dennis WA 1531 3.5 29.0 39.0 16.0
Maguire, Jesse ACT 1321 3.5 28.5 34.5 16.5
Kerksal, David 3.5 27.5 35.5 16.5
Scott, Christopher WA 857 3.5 24.0 29.0 13.5
Arnold, Matthew WA 883 3.5 19.5 25.5 10.5
54-56 Tse, Jeffrey NSW 1337 3 30.5 38.5 17.0
Humphries, Ryan WA 1238 3 28.5 36.5 15.0
Slack-Smith, Blair WA 1096 3 24.0 30.5 13.0
57-60 Taylor, Paul 2.5 27.5 33.5 13.0
Martin, Richard VIC 1237 2.5 27.0 35.0 13.0
Andrews, Stephen WA 2.5 27.0 34.0 11.5
Gevers, Jonathan 2.5 22.5 29.5 9.0
61 Rodin, Ben 1.5 29.0 35.0 10.0
62 Ung, Josephine ACT 332 0.5 22.0 27.5 1.0
63 Saxon, Marc WA 1535 0 2.0 2.0 0.0

Cross Table
No Name Feder Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

1. Chow, Samuel VIC 32:W 20:W 18:W 23:D 2:L 16:W 4:W 7:L 15:W
2. Bourmistrov, Denis VIC 33:W 21:W 19:D 17:W 1:W 23:W 24:W 29:D 7:D
3. Zvedeniouk, Ilya NSW 34:W 22:L 38:W 18:W 23:L 13:L 20:L 43:W 36:D
4. Wei, Michael ACT 35:W 23:L 33:W 29:D 15:W 26:W 1:L 16:D 47:W
5. Stojic, Dusan VIC 36:W 24:L 40:W 20:W 19:L 14:W 22:W 30:W 29:W
6. Oliver, Gareth ACT 37:D 45:W 30:W 19:D 22:L 18:W 41:W 24:W 13:D
7. Suttor, Vincent NSW 38:W 25:W 22:D 24:D 26:D 28:W 23:W 1:W 2:D
8. Xie, Ken NSW 39:L 48:W 35:W 27:W 29:L 25:D 28:W 23:L 20:W
9. Song, Raymond NSW 40:W 26:L 44:W 30:L 38:W 27:L 32:W 22:L 41:W
10. Wongwichit, Phachara QLD 41:W 27:W 23:L 53:W 47:W 24:L 19:L 21:W 22:W
11. Lattimore, Tor ACT 42:W 28:W 24:D 22:D 30:L 41:L 43:W 20:D 35:W
12. Cronan, James NSW 43:L 49:W 37:W 41:L 40:W 47:L 21:L 45:W 28:W
13. Yu, Michael NSW 44:W 29:D 16:W 26:D 24:L 3:W 47:W 19:W 6:D
14. Kimura, Toshi QLD 45:D 37:D 41:L 39:W 43:W 5:L 40:W 27:D 25:L
15. Ikeda, Junta ACT 46:W 30:L 62:W 28:D 4:L 53:W 26:W 25:W 1:L
16. Stojic, Svetozar VIC 47:W 39:D 13:L 21:W 41:W 1:L 35:W 4:D 30:D
17. Lugo, Ruperto VIC 48:W 62:W 26:D 2:L 28:L 35:L 45:W 39:W 27:W
18. Wang, Zhengbo WA 49:W 43:W 1:L 3:L 37:W 6:L 53:W 41:W 23:D
19. Ly, Moulthun QLD 50:W 63:W 2:D 6:D 5:W 30:L 10:W 13:L 24:D
20. Ferris, Shaun VIC 51:W 1:L 43:W 5:L 53:L 49:W 3:W 11:D 8:L
21. Chapman, Mark J WA 52:W 2:L 46:D 16:L 36:D 42:W 12:W 10:L 38:W
22. Jager, Jesse VIC 53:W 3:W 7:D 11:D 6:W 29:L 5:L 9:W 10:L
23. Huang, Justin NSW 54:W 4:W 10:W 1:D 3:W 2:L 7:L 8:W 18:D
24. Hu, Jason NSW 55:W 5:W 11:D 7:D 13:W 10:W 2:L 6:L 19:D
25. Yu, Chris QLD 56:W 7:L 47:L 44:W 42:W 8:D 27:W 15:L 14:W
26. Oliver, Shannon ACT 57:W 9:W 17:D 13:D 7:D 4:L 15:L 47:L 61:W
27. Vijayakumar, Rukman VIC 58:W 10:L 63:W 8:L 48:W 9:W 25:L 14:D 17:L
28. Viswanath, Ganesh WA 59:W 11:L 51:W 15:D 17:W 7:L 8:L 38:D 12:L
29. Neeman, Jeremy ACT 60:W 13:D 39:W 4:D 8:W 22:W 30:W 2:D 5:L
30. Obst, James SA 61:W 15:W 6:L 9:W 11:W 19:W 29:L 5:L 16:D
31. Saxon, Marc WA 62:- :L : : : : : : :
32. Van Heerden, Daniel WA 1:L 50:D 53:L 59:W 39:W 45:D 9:L 49:W 40:D
33. Holland, Dennis WA 2:L 52:W 4:L 48:L 50:W 44:D 38:L 34:L 59:W
34. Van Dijk, Devrim VIC 3:L 51:L 55:D 63:W 45:L 52:W 61:L 33:W 53:W
35. Donaldson, Thomas WA 4:L 54:W 8:L 50:D 46:W 17:W 16:L 61:W 11:L
36. Tran, Christopher ACT 5:L 53:L 56:W 45:D 21:D 43:L 57:W 51:W 3:D
37. Sreetharan, Kishore ACT 6:D 14:D 12:L 57:W 18:L 48:D 46:D 44:D 42:D
38. Rozells, Nathan WA 7:L 44:W 3:L 49:W 9:L 51:D 33:W 28:D 21:L
39. Guo-Yuthok, Sherab ACT 8:W 16:D 29:L 14:L 32:L 59:W 48:W 17:L 44:L
40. Levin, Joshua NSW 9:L 56:W 5:L 51:W 12:L 54:W 14:L 46:W 32:D
41. Kaspar, Ric QLD 10:L 58:W 14:W 12:W 16:L 11:W 6:L 18:L 9:L
42. Haselgrove, Miles WA 11:L 57:D 50:D 61:W 25:L 21:L 55:W 53:D 37:D
43. Wallis, Christopher VIC 12:W 18:L 20:L 62:W 14:L 36:W 11:L 3:L 49:W
44. Muthusamy, Reubban VIC 13:L 59:W 9:L 25:L 55:W 33:D 51:D 37:D 39:W
45. Guzel, Adam NSW 14:D 6:L 57:D 36:D 34:W 32:D 17:L 12:L 54:W
46. Tse, Jeffrey NSW 15:L 61:W 21:D 47:L 35:L 60:W 37:D 40:L 52:L
47. Colic, Igor WA 16:L 60:W 25:W 46:W 10:L 12:W 13:L 26:W 4:L
48. Maguire, Jesse ACT 17:L 8:L 58:W 33:W 27:L 37:D 39:L 52:D 51:D
49. Humphries, Ryan WA 18:L 12:L 60:W 38:L 57:W 20:L 54:W 32:L 43:L
50. Martin, Richard VIC 19:L 32:D 42:D 35:D 33:L 61:L 56:D 57:D 60:L
51. Beltrami, Matthew ACT 20:L 34:W 28:L 40:L 62:W 38:D 44:D 36:L 48:D
52. Vinciguerra, Andrew WA 21:L 33:L 59:D 55:D 61:D 34:L 62:W 48:D 46:W
53. Chu, Louis NSW 22:L 36:W 32:W 10:L 20:W 15:L 18:L 42:D 34:L
54. Slack-Smith, Blair WA 23:L 35:L 61:L 58:W 63:W 40:L 49:L 60:W 45:L
55. McGowan, Daniel NSW 24:L : 34:D 52:D 44:L 62:W 42:L 59:W 63:W
56. Arnold, Matthew WA 25:L 40:L 36:L 60:D 59:L 58:W 50:D 63:D 62:W
57. Scott, Christopher WA 26:L 42:D 45:D 37:L 49:L 63:W 36:L 50:D 58:W
58. Ung, Josephine ACT 27:L 41:L 48:L 54:L 60:L 56:L 63:L 62:D 57:L
59. Andrews, Stephen WA 28:L 44:L 52:D 32:L 56:W 39:L 60:W 55:L 33:L
60. Gevers, Jonathan 29:L 47:L 49:L 56:D 58:W 46:L 59:L 54:L 50:W
61. Kerksal, David 30:L 46:L 54:W 42:L 52:D 50:W 34:W 35:L 26:L
62. Rodin, Ben 31:+ 17:L 15:L 43:L 51:L 55:L 52:L 58:D 56:L
63. Taylor, Paul :W 19:L 27:L 34:L 54:L 57:L 58:W 56:D 55:L

by Swiss Perfect (TM) www.swissperfect

Bill Gletsos
24-01-2004, 08:42 PM
Talk about disappointing.

Denis Bourmistrov 2030 V Dusan Stoic 1863

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Nc3 Qb6 4. dxc5 Qxb2 5. Bd2 Qb4 1/2-1/2

5 moves. What a disgrace.

Bill Gletsos
24-01-2004, 08:46 PM
BTW PGN's are available but only for the first 8 rounds.

Still no lightning results posted.

chesslover
24-01-2004, 10:06 PM
Talk about disappointing.

Denis Bourmistrov 2030 V Dusan Stoic 1863

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 c5 3. Nc3 Qb6 4. dxc5 Qxb2 5. Bd2 Qb4 1/2-1/2

5 moves. What a disgrace.

agree with you 100% :x

The coaches who encourage our juniors to take these quick draws are not doing their pupils any favours

jenni
24-01-2004, 11:00 PM
Denis I think is finding himself a little lacking in confidence. There are certainly no coaches involved - Denis is preparing himself, with a little help from David Smerdon, who is sharing a house with him.

Denis is stressing over how his opening is going and bailing out into a draw. It will make it interesting tomorrow. Denis should win if he doesn't panic, as he is playing Michael Yu.

Dusan Stojic plays Sam Chow and Gareth plays Michael Wei. Gareth, Michael, Dusan and Vincent Suttor all have chances of winning the under 16, with Dusan and Gareth 1/2 a point ahead of Michael and Vincent.

Sam Chow won the Lightning.

Bill Gletsos
25-01-2004, 11:19 PM
Australian Junior Champion : Denis Bourmistrov

Australian Junior Girls Champion : Heather Huddleston

U/16 Champion: Vincent Sutter

U/14 Champion: Moulthun Ly

U/12 Champion: Max Illingworth

U/10 Champion: Kelvin Finke

U/16 Girls Champion: Alexandra Jule

U/14 Girls Champion: Amy Evans

U/12 Girls Champion: Deborah Ng

U/10 Girls Champion: Emma Guo

chesslover
26-01-2004, 11:17 AM
The worst Aus Juniors I ever went to was Perth in 1997. The second worst tournament I have ever been to was Perth in 2004. I have tried to be positive and appreciate the hard work of the Perth people, but tonight's debacle is too much for me.

However Norbert seems to have no idea about young children's feelings. I had 3 ACT children in tears tonight and other children from other states upset.

They have known for the last month what the numbers were in their tournaments - all the trophies have been displayed from the first day. In the girls under 18 there were 11 girls and 9 trophies.

In the end they only handed out 5 of the trophies. Heather got first, Alex Jule 2nd, Amy Evans 3rd and I think Rebecca 2nd under 16 and Casey 2nd under 14. David Smerdon went to protest on behalf of Amy and Alex (they wanted their 1st under 16 and 1st under 14 instead). Norbert who was [censored] off by this time, told him to take what he liked so the girls grabbed their correct trophies, but I think kept the other ones as well!

They also kept back 1 of the under 16 trophies for the open.

One of our ACT girls - Miona Ikeda - was in floods of tears, as she was expecting 2nd under 16, but becasue of the stupid way they did the trophies, she missed out. Laura Moylan went into bat for her (Laura asked me, but I knew I would just irritate them, so Laura did it). Laura spent hours going through tthe results and doing it correctly. In most of the cases, I feel WA had a moral obligation to hand out trophies they had displayed and led children to expect would be handed out. In Miona's case Laura is adamant that a mistake has been made and Miona has missed out on an advertised prize. Even if the mistake is fixed and Miona gets her money or trophy or whatever, she will never get what she wants, which was to be part of the prizegiving ceremony and be recognised by her peers.

Nothing on earth would ever again sway me to bring my children to a comp in WA. :x :x

Yes, it does sound like it was a complete stuff up from what you state. I agree with you that if these trophies were shown, then there is a moral obligation to hand them over - especially as the kids thought that was what they were there for.

Maybe someone from Perth can put forward their version of what happened, and explain soem of the puzzling decisions that have been made

Bill Gletsos
26-01-2004, 11:38 AM
Their web page lists the following.

Under 18 Open Tournament: 1st, 2nd, 3rd
Titles: Australian Junior Champion $600 $400 $250
Australian u/16 Champion $300 $175
Australian u/14 Champion $200 $120

Under 12 Open Tournament
Titles: Australian u/12 Champion $170 $100
Australian u/10 Champion $120 $70

Under 18 Girls Tournament
Titles: Australian Girls Champion $450 $280 $150
Australian Girls u/16 Champion $200 $120
Australian Girls u/14 Champion $150 $100

Under 12 Girls Tournament
Titles: Australian Girls u/12 Champion $130 $90
Australian Girls u/10 Champion $100 $60



I would therefore suggest they have an obligation to award all of those prizes/trophies.

jenni
26-01-2004, 12:13 PM
I think there is a moral obligation to hand out trophies that were displayed for 2 weeks - some of the girls who missed out were 12 years old.

In the case of Miona Ikeda she qualified for one of the advertised money prizes, that they chose not to hand out, so perhaps more than a moral obligation.

Laura Moylan wote out all the prize lists again for the organisers and suggested they fix up any errors.

As I have said before no amount of money or trophies will make up for the devastation Miona felt at not being called up at the prize giving ceremony.

Yesterday was a very irritating day, with Norbert refusing to run playoffs, even after Kerry Stead had given him a copy of the ACF playoff conditions for the Aus Juniors. Unfortunately the ACF have not updated the conditions on the website, even though the new conditions were passed in January 2002. Thus Norbert had some right on his side in saying that he had no knowledge of them.

However given Manuel Weeks had spoken to him 3 days before and informed him of the conditions, it is very irritaing that Norbert (as usual) refused to take any notice of anyone. In the end Geroge Howard ran the plaayoffs.

Garvinator
26-01-2004, 12:16 PM
i would like to know from these reports, how is not more scrutiny put over any tender that is placed to hold an australian championship?

arosar
26-01-2004, 01:55 PM
Who is this Norbert bloke? Give us a profile. These WA people don't exactly sound very competent do they?

AR

Bill Gletsos
26-01-2004, 03:13 PM
I think there is a moral obligation to hand out trophies that were displayed for 2 weeks - some of the girls who missed out were 12 years old.

In the case of Miona Ikeda she qualified for one of the advertised money prizes, that they chose not to hand out, so perhaps more than a moral obligation.
May I suggest jenni that you get your ACF rep to take this up on your behalf as a matter of urgency.


Laura Moylan wote out all the prize lists again for the organisers and suggested they fix up any errors.
If this list is correct for all events then get it forwared to the ACF Council.


As I have said before no amount of money or trophies will make up for the devastation Miona felt at not being called up at the prize giving ceremony.
That is very unfortunate.


Yesterday was a very irritating day, with Norbert refusing to run playoffs, even after Kerry Stead had given him a copy of the ACF playoff conditions for the Aus Juniors. Unfortunately the ACF have not updated the conditions on the website, even though the new conditions were passed in January 2002. Thus Norbert had some right on his side in saying that he had no knowledge of them. [
Your just being polite. Thats complete rubbish.
Kerry Stead is an ACF Vice President. Norbert should have listened to him.


However given Manuel Weeks had spoken to him 3 days before and informed him of the conditions, it is very irritaing that Norbert (as usual) refused to take any notice of anyone. In the end Geroge Howard ran the plaayoffs.
This just confirms that Norbert was being totally unreasonable.

The tournament is the Australian Junior, not the Norbert Muller Junior.

The ACF should appoint someone to correctly determine who won what and inform Norbert that the money and trophies as advertised/displayed must be payed and presented.

Bill Gletsos
26-01-2004, 03:14 PM
i would like to know from these reports, how is not more scrutiny put over any tender that is placed to hold an australian championship?

It's not the tender that is the problem.

It's organisers making decisons on the fly at the end of the tournament.

That is simply unacceptable.

Bill Gletsos
26-01-2004, 03:14 PM
Who is this Norbert bloke? Give us a profile. These WA people don't exactly sound very competent do they?
He is the President of WA Junior Chess.
However rather than necessarily an issue of competence or otherwise, it seems more of a case of being pig-headed, stubborn and not listening to those that obviously have more experience and know better.

BroadZ
26-01-2004, 09:12 PM
Hows about an apology, chesslover?

skip to my lou
26-01-2004, 09:13 PM
Just ignore chesslover :D

rob
27-01-2004, 03:39 PM
Who is this Norbert bloke? Give us a profile. These WA people don't exactly sound very competent do they?

AR

Hi Arosar,

I have to be very careful what I say but...

There is a profile of Norbert at the CAWA website in the 'Special Members' section http://www.geocities.com/wachess/

Apart from all of his voluntary involvements listed in this profile Norbert also spends much time photocopying and posting the bi-monthly 16 page CAWA newsletter (to 200+ members) and is CAWA property officer.

I understand that only Norbert (JCC President), Joe (webmaster), Fiona (treasurer) were aware of their involvement well before the events. Of these three, I particularly feel sorry for Joe (the best CAWA treasurer) who would leave the venue in the evening, visit a sick relative in hospital, then go home to do more computer stuff.

Others (all bulletin ppl & coaches) were co-opted a day or two before the schools tourney (I don't know about canteen ppl). There was a lack of meetings, planning, organising volunteers.

An example of where orgnising coaching for WA players may have helped was the case of U12 player Yita Choong. Top WA player Tristan Boyd had not been asked to coach WA players before he went to the Aus Nat Ch'sip in Adelaide. So when contacted, prior to the AJC, for coaching a Qld junior he agreed. With Tristan's coaching help the Qld kid beat Yita (who had been 2nd for part of the U12's).

Due to work and other commitments I was not involved in the AJC (even if I wanted to be!).

arosar
27-01-2004, 03:55 PM
Cheers mate. He actually sounds like a top bloke to me. This is what happens when we only get one side of the story. Now you in WA rob? You reckon you could maybe tap this fella on the shoulder and ask him to pay us a bit of a visit here on the BB?

Thanks mate.

AR

rob
27-01-2004, 04:35 PM
Cheers mate. He actually sounds like a top bloke to me. This is what happens when we only get one side of the story. Now you in WA rob? You reckon you could maybe tap this fella on the shoulder and ask him to pay us a bit of a visit here on the BB?

Thanks mate.

AR

Your welcome!

I am sure that Norbert doesn't have a computer - I believe his only contact with them is using the CAWA's Swiss Perfect Pairing System. He was one of the first in WA to point out Swiss Perfect's over-emphasis on colour pairings (in an early version at least) - SP programmer Robert Rozycki lived in WA before Vic!

jenni
27-01-2004, 06:30 PM
No-one is saying Norbert is bad - merely that it was a badly run tournament.

I have stated many times that the chess environment was excellent - kept very quiet and enabled good thinking. However it takes more than a quiet room to run a good junior tournament. Kids self esteem matters.

I have never been to an aus juniors before where I heard teenagers booing when a vote of thanks was proposed for the DOP. Now that was very rude - even though I was seriously pissed off with Norbert I still clapped in recognition of his hard work and dedication.

However he is just plain arrogant. All he had to do (or Fiona), was e-mail a few past organisers and ask them what were the standards, what was normally done. Instead of that he just did his own thing and stuff the kids, parents and "coaching staff" as he insisted on calling them.

I think we are back to black and white and shades of grey. It is not a case of Norbert is good, or Norbert is bad, but a case of in some ways he is excellent and does good things, in others he was totally lacking in any understanding.

I have a long list of complaints, but I am not going to make things worse by airing them. However the trophy thing is something that should be rectified.

jenni
27-01-2004, 06:34 PM
I have just read Rob's initial post - I think a very honest post albeit "careful".....

chesslover
27-01-2004, 08:39 PM
However rather than necessarily an issue of competence or otherwise, it seems more of a case of being pig-headed, stubborn and not listening to those that obviously have more experience and know better.

you are 100% correct with your observation, and I am sure most people will agree with your sentiments :)

It is very dissapointing, and I hope that Jenni does put forward her concerns to the ACF offically

chesslover
27-01-2004, 08:41 PM
Hows about an apology, chesslover?

an apology for what? what are you talking about???

patzerdad
28-01-2004, 02:13 AM
ok, here we go - a few observations from someone local who was there.(not an official either)

The heat- negligible effect and only a slight factor for the first day or so

No aircon- gimme a break, the hall was airy enough- by about the 4th day some were complaining that is was a bit chilly

The website and the bulletins- ok there were a few hitches there

No individual analysis rooms- WTF, so the precious little private school darlings and their IM and FM coaches and their laptops with deep fritz7900 had to share a dining hall with the rest of the players-- for f...k's sake we ain't talking about Anand and Kasparov here, these are juniors.

The DOP- I dont know if all the decisions Norbert made were correct or not but one this is for sure, proceedings got off to a bad start when one of the coaches delayed the opening day start by endlessly prattling on about the draw for one of the girls comps, surely he could have sorted this out before the opening ceremony.None of the parents/coaches made any effort during the tournament to have the children at their table ready to go by the scheduled start time. Every day was the same story, Norbert trying to make anouncements at 1pm and parents and kids drifting in, milling around and chatting at the same time.

The titles/trophies- from what i understand the stuff up only related to the open girls comp where there was a ludicrous amount of prizes in relation to the size of the field and some girls actually qualified for prizes in more than one division. I don't know for certain but i did hear someone saying that no player was eligible to win more than one prize. The miniscule size of the girls open renders the titles virtually meaningless. In fact can anyone tell me why the girls dont compete together in the open with the boys. Chess is after all a mind game not a strength contest

Interesting things that happened that weren't the fault of Norbert or the rest of the WA volunteers.

The 13yo girl chess player squirming in the lap of a well known 19 year old(at the closing ceremony no less, and no more than 5metres from where Jenni Oliver was standing)

The posse of mothers trying to arrange for the little sunburnt child to be removed from the tournament. supposedly to protect their children from the risk of infection????????????

One of the high rated players who always seemed to need to go to the toilet/ go outside for a drink of water at the same time as his coach (maybe he read Broadz' s earlier posts)

arosar
28-01-2004, 08:50 AM
I think we are back to black and white and shades of grey. It is not a case of Norbert is good, or Norbert is bad, but a case of in some ways he is excellent and does good things, in others he was totally lacking in any understanding.

Good tabloid is only ever interested in these 3 things: the good, the bad and the ugly.


I have a long list of complaints, but I am not going to make things worse by airing them.

Give us a bit of a taster. How's about mentioning 2 or 3 of your complaints? The juicier ones. It would be negligent on your part to keep these a private matter. Whatever complaints you have - these deserved to be aired in public. The chess public deserves and demands to know.

C'mon Mrs Oliver! You never failed us before - don't fail us now.

AR

Bob1
28-01-2004, 10:38 AM
ok, here we go - a few observations from someone local who was there.(not an official either)
patzerdad
thanks for your views - helps balance things.

You left out the most important bit - did your child(ren) or the kids you have spoken to enjoy the event(s)?

jenni
28-01-2004, 11:49 AM
I am so disgusted by some of patzerdad's post!

I know who he is referring to with the bit about the 19 year old and the 13 year old. I would just like to say that the 19 year old has known the 13 year old since she was about 5 and views her in the same way as his sister - to even start to impute some sort of sexual connotation is just plain sick. I have e-mailed the mother and suggested to her she might like to make a statement!

The lack of air conditioning was not a problem after the first few days - I have already stated that. However it was a major problem at the schools comp and aircon has been a mandatory condition for schools comps since Adelaide 2000.

Sounds like a fair bit of jealousy coming through. The Aus Juniors runs as a professional competition where our best compete under the best conditions.

What are we saying here - that because WA hasn't the experience we should put up with sub standard conditions? I would have more respect for the WA people if they had taken the opportunity to learn from some of the very experienced coaches and administrators there how to improve chess in their state. Instead they seem to have a chip on their shoulder as to how isolated they are and how imposssible it is for them to improve.

I saw a lot of very talented WA kids - they have strong players and presumably coaches in WA, so surely more could be done with them.

The coach who was endlessly prattling on about the girls draw was IM Alex Davidovici. He made numerous attempts to get it sorted out before the opening ceremony but Norbert ignored him and as usual refused to listen to anything.

The girls comp is horribly small - combining it with the boys would halve the number of girls playing. Why did only 1 very weak WA girl play in the under 18? I know WA has some strong under 18 girls - you just have to look at their Dorothy Dibley team. I was told something about entriy forms not being handed out in time at some comp?

I am not going to go into the trophies again - the facts are plain - it was done wrong and trophies in both the open under 18 and girls under 18 were not handed out after being displayed for 2 weeks.

I am not saying that there should have been 9 trophies for 11 girls - obviously crazy. But why display the damn things if you are not going to hand them out.

The commment about people winning 2 prizes just shows once again how ignorant they are of how things are done at the aus juniors - people are often eligible for multiple prizes - while they take the higest money prize, they take the trophy for the title.

E.g Alex Jule came second and Amy Evans =3rd.

Alex Jule gets second money, but 1st under 16 trophy. Amy Evans gets 1st under 14 trophy. Same with Vincent Suttor - he came = 2nd, but should have got 1st under 16 trophy, not 3rd overall.

Once again I would like to state that not all of this is WA's fault. As I have said on the bulletin board for some time now, we need proper procedures that enables details of how things are done to be eaily passed to a new organiser.

However if I was running a comp for the first time (and WA had never run a schools comp before), then the first thing I would have done was contact previous organisers and ask them for info on what was normally done and what conditions were expected.

things that are normal at schools comps - I have listed the things and what states provided them.

transport to and from airport and from nearby accommodation to venue.

ACT
SA
QLD
Vic (some)

Free morning and afternoon tea

NSW
ACT
SA
QLD
VIC

Free lunch for players

NSW
ACT
SA

lunch available for purchase at the venue for either players or accompanying people

NSW
ACT
SA
QLD
Vic
WA (on second day only, after complaints. On the first day people hired taxis to drive kids to purchase food).

BBQ on the first night - pretty normal in a schools sporting event (paid for by participants)

NSW
ACT
SA
QLD
Vic (free)

You can play spot WA with these conditions.

If patzer wants to accuse people of cheating why doesn't he name names! I saw no sign of any cheating going on.

As far as the sunburnt kid goes, I am not aware of anyone trying to remove him from the comp, but if they did, I suspect it was because of concern for his health. I know I couldn't sleep the first night after I saw him, I was so upset about the state of his back. (We have a long history of skin cancer in our family, so it is one of my big concerns!). The child was 10 years old and so badly burnt, he could not wear a shirt or sit at the board.

A final thing - most of the particiapants at the Aus juniors do not go to private schools.

Ian Rout
28-01-2004, 01:17 PM
Cheating is always possible though it would be surprising if multiple instances were apparent to one person and none at all to others. In any event if you suspect it is happening you should at the time draw it to the attention of the arbiter who can assign an assistant to monitor the prime suspect. Passing vague anonymous hints after the event just sounds like sour grapes and doesn't impress anyone.



No individual analysis rooms- WTF, so the precious little private school darlings and their IM and FM coaches and their laptops with deep fritz7900 had to share a dining hall with the rest of the players-- for f...k's sake we ain't talking about Anand and Kasparov here, these are juniors.

As with many other sports, junior and serious play are not separate worlds. There are about 11 GMs under 18 on the FIDE list - someone else can count the IMs if they wish.

None are Australian and that is not surprising if parents are telling players that working on their game is just for the rich kids, the rest of us should be doing something more appropriate between rounds like going down pit or playing with the ferret. I could understand an argument that suitable facilities are hard to come by (though wasn't this event at a school?) but parents thinking that it isn't important is a worry. Imagine if there were no practice facilities at the national U/18 cricket titles and parents were shrugging off complaints as precious little private school darlings being unreasonable wanting to practice when it wasn't Ponting or Tendulkar, only juniors.

jenni
28-01-2004, 02:21 PM
The 13yo girl chess player squirming in the lap of a well known 19 year old(at the closing ceremony no less, and no more than 5metres from where Jenni Oliver was standing)



I have since found out that the 13 year old's mother was sitting right next to them - if she didn't have a problem with the situation, how dare patzerdad.

Perhaps it is a case of seeing evil if you are inclined that way yourself......

arosar
28-01-2004, 02:55 PM
These blows are getting itsy bitsy lower.

Now jenni, I know you're a bit upset and all, but do you reckon who could expand a little on your other complaints? Let's just talk about the chess bit - and not some bastardised version of the Blue Lagoon.

I am also interested in other parents' opinion of Norbert, in particular. I know you must have spoken to them at length. Did they also share your general opinion? From your postings we get the feeling that Norbert and the rest of the WA mob aren't exactly the best people to work with. Anyone else in WA you had problems with or just Norbert?

What about Mr Cronan - you have anything to add?

AR

Kerry Stead
28-01-2004, 03:19 PM
Seems not all the WA people were behind Norbert.
As has been said earlier in the post, a number of things were only arranged at the last minute.
I heard that Norbert had been asked by various people if he needed any help, assistance, or anything of that nature, but he continued to say that everything was under control. Obviously if things were being done at the last minute, then this was not quite the case.
I spoke to a number of WA chess players (non-juniors) who dropped by, or were at the championships, and they questioned the wisdom of the ACF in having WA host the Juniors.
I have also heard that there may be some resignations from CAWA as a result, although I have only heard rumours rather than anything from the person who is alledgedly going to resign.

As for the rumours that patzerdad eludes to, much like many other things that are seen here, facts should be checked first. I have also been in contact with one of the parties involved, needless to say they are stunned and angered by the post.

I think that the main problem to come out of all this is that there has been a lack of communication on many fronts. It seems as though the ACF By-Laws on the web-site were somewhat out-of-date, which led to Norbert's confusion as to what to do about playoffs. There was also no communication with previous organisers (as far as I know) regarding the running of either the schools comp or the Juniors. In addition, it seems that Norbert shouldered much of the responsibility and workload on his own, rather than allowing others who were willing to help out make his job easier. As happens with such things, mistakes are inevitable, and without the assistance, these mistakes become more significant and noticeable.

I think for future events, there needs to be someone who can act as a guide for organisers of events such as the National Schools and the Australian Junior (perhaps a junior equivalent to the 'ACF Tournament Co-ordinator' position which I think still exists) to ensure that there are minimum standards that can be expected of a competition, no matter where it is held. Yes, we want to have the tournament spread around Australia so as to give kids, parents, organisers, etc a chance to experience different things, meet new people, and generally enjoy themselves in places where they might not ordinarily go, while not taking away from the individual character of tournaments held in different cities around the country.

Perhaps we can consider Perth 2004 as a learning experience?

Garvinator
28-01-2004, 03:25 PM
me thinks that this thread could be locked pretty shortly, just like the junior selection thread

bobby1972
28-01-2004, 03:28 PM
this is bad for chess people very bad.

skip to my lou
28-01-2004, 03:29 PM
............

shaun
28-01-2004, 03:33 PM
this is bad for chess people very bad.
Nothing I've seen in this debate is any different than what I have seen in other debates about junior chess. You have the standard parents v organisers v players merry-go-round of claim and counter claim. I don't think this debate is reflecting badly on what goes on in junior chess, just reflecting accurately.

jenni
28-01-2004, 04:13 PM
Perhaps we can consider Perth 2004 as a learning experience?

I think this is the best approach. I was not going to put any complaints up here, but the business with the prizes (and Norbert's attitude when tackled by Laura Moylan) seriously annoyed me.

Of course Patzerdad's stupidities couldn't go unchallenged.

However let's rather look at what is needed for the future.

I think the first thing is that there should be a realisation that comps like the Aus juniors and the aus schools comps are ACF competitions. The ACF might give a state the right to hold a comp, but it is not run under ACT conditions or rules or any other states, but has to be run under ACF guidelines.

We had a parents and coaches meeting on the second day of the schools comp and what came out of that very clearly was that all the parties wanted to see better continuity from from one year to the next.

This means that we need a fairly detailed set of official guidelines on how things should be done. A timeline for organising the comp and guidelines on how many helpers are needed.

e.g getting the games keyed in for the bulletins is always a massive job. However there is some software around to help manage things. I think it was Phil O'Connor from Melbourne who helped out the ACT by giving us some software for helping control the PGN files. Possibly there is a better version by now. This is the sort of info that can be passed from one organiser to the next.

Together with the full guidelines on how the comps should be run, can be a 1 pager from each years organiser, high lighting the good things and problems and solutions.

This information should be provided to any state planning to bid, so that when they bid it is in full knowledge of what is expected.

When I raised the problems with the schools comp with Fiona van Heerden, she told me there was no way WA had the resources to run the schools comp in that way. I was a bit snappy at this point being hot and having had no lunch, as I had given mine away to a boy from NSW, so I told her perhaps they shouldn't have bid, if they couldn't handle it. (You can see why I was popular!)

However if states know in advance what they have to do, then they can either not bid, or negotiate in advance, permission to cut out conditions. Everyone would then know what to expect.

I think Kerry's idea of a person as a co-ordinator is good, but given that people move on and new people come onto the ACF, I still think we need to get procedures written, so there are very definite guidelines and rules.

Of course a state is still able to add other ideas and conditions in and if they are successful, can be added to the national guidelines. e.g if a state wishes to organise a funfair in the next door park, well they should be at liberty to do so. If the majority of people feel it was a problem (e.g too noisy or led to the under 12's finishing their games even faster than they normally do), then it can be documented as less than successful.

I understand Andrew and Alex Saint have written a 40 page tournament guideline as a result of the Aus Champs - I am sure it will invaluable for future tournament organisers.

Libby
28-01-2004, 05:51 PM
Shaun certainly finds some of "us parents" a bit of a handful at times but the whole situation in WA had very little to do with claims and counter-claims between organisers/players/parents. Too few (maybe only one?) seemed to be trying to do the work of many. Those doing the work didn't seem to want to hear the views of others, whether they were being expressed helpfully, aggressively or otherwise. The fuss with the playoffs was ridiculous as so many reasonable people were being disbelieved or ignored - not just at the last minute but in the days leading up to the final day when it seemed obvious that at least one title would have to go to a playoff. The "no playoff" decision was even announced to the players before the start of the final round when this was still a matter of dispute between the tournament organisers and numerous coaches, state officials and even the ACF President - parents were the least of the worries!

Patzerdad needs to take a long look at himself. I arrived on the second day of the school comp and players/organisers from all states were universally concerned about the heat on the first day. This may have become a negligable problem as the Aus Jnrs commenced but that was as a result of a drop in the overall Perth temperature, not a result of the improved amenity of the playing hall. Rules re air conditioning have been made for good reason - perhaps a group of 100+ adults would like to attempt 4+ hours of play in stifling heat (possibly for 11+ days in a row) and see what is considered reasonable. If the ACF has these rules then they have to be enforced. If you had to address EVERY ONE on those rules in a bid document, or have your bid thrown out, people might attempt to adhere to them.

The "private school darlings" comment just reeks of ill-informed, irresponsible prejudice. If we have to be statistical to be accurate I suppose about 1/4 of the ACT children in WA attend a private school but having coaching available to them was not the choice of their "rich" parents - rather it was the ACT Junior Chess League who heavily subsidised coaching for all those ACT children who wanted coaching. My (non-private-schooled) daughter has reaped great benefits from the preparation and analysis provided by a coach over the duration of these tournaments. I am not speaking in respect of titles or trophies, but in terms of what she can learn to improve her game. The vast majority of children do not win a title but gain most benefit from these events because of the intensive, high-level competition enhanced by regular coaching.

Given that the WA organisers had told us in advance that we would have our own prep and analysis room it wasn't unreasonable that we were p****d off when it wasn't available.

The matter of the trophies can be argued back and forth but it comes down to a decision to award prizes differently to the way it has been done in the past. Given past practice, and the number of awards on display for two weeks, children had every right to feel disappointed. Laura Moylan (who is no-one's parent) was a passionate advocate for those who missed out but Norbert refused to even discuss her concerns.

Most of what patzerdad had to say deserves no response at all but can I say that I was not a mother trying to send a little sunburnt boy home for fear of his infecting my child or any other. I don't know if any such thought came to anyone's mind. I was one of many who were dreadfully concerned by the sight of this poor little boy's burgeoning blisters. It looked excruciating and I sure he was in a lot of pain. Many of us were concerned because he was at the event without his parents and in such a bad way.

adelaideuni
28-01-2004, 05:59 PM
I understand Andrew and Alex Saint have written a 40 page tournament guideline as a result of the Aus Champs - I am sure it will invaluable for future tournament organisers.

That's correct Jenni.

I had completely the same view after we had done the Australian Championships. It became very apparent to me that there was a lot of information that could be passed on to future organisers to help bridge the gap in experience. As you say, people move on in chess (like anything) and there needs to be an official document of some sort that clearly states what must be done, and success or failures of the past. After all, do we want history repeating itself? We want each Champioship/Aus Junior or Open to reach the same minimum level each year.

It appears that some WA organisrs are perhaps (although i can't comment myself) tending to have a closed view on running a NATIONAL event. As Jenni stated, there needs to be a consistency each year. People are paying good money and travelling long distances and consequently, expectations should be high. Further, if there was a document that stated the requirements of such an event, then organisers could say whether it was too difficult or not to hold. Organisers are then accountable to keep to what the document requires of them.

Now is probably as good a time as any to let people know a bit more about our Organisers Report which doesn't just cover this year's success or failures but goes into all the details/requirements/expectations of running an event such as the Championships.

The Report will be also discussed at the Doerbel Cup where George Howard is having a conference in which ideas such as this are discussed.

Our report could also double as help to the Aus Junior organisers as it is general in many aspects. This report is going through a draft process but would people want it to be placed on the web?

I would be happy to maybe liase with Alan Goldsmith (organiser of the Adelaide Aus Junior in 2002) and others to create a report which specifies requirements of the Junior specificially if you want. (or perhaps someone more experinced would be more appropriate!)

Alex.

Garvinator
28-01-2004, 06:14 PM
something that has been talked about on here and i havent yet seen an acf official dispute it is that it is mandated that the playing hall(s) must be air-conditioned.

Clearly this did not happen in the australian juniors, so I wonder who was be at fault if one of the juniors passed out or worse on the first day and one of the parents decided to sue?

In todays times it would be very likely that a parent would be consulting legal advise if his/her child died on that first day.

adelaideuni
28-01-2004, 06:30 PM
Further, the report could contain a section where players and parents state their grievances or suggestions.

Let me know what you think of this and my previous post.

Alex.

jenni
28-01-2004, 06:40 PM
Further, the report could contain a section where players and parents state their grievances or suggestions.

Let me know what you think of this and my previous post.

Alex.
Alex I think it would be great to see your report on the web, so some constructive ideas could be generated.

Perhaps Kerry could comment on whether he would like you to undertake a similar document for the Aus juniors? I think it is an excellent idea, but he is the ACF person.

We also need something for the schools comp, as it is very different animal to the aus juniors.

I think you are wonderful to volunteer as getting the initial draft done is always the hardest. Once something exists, people are happy to comment and improve, but no-one wants to do the first one.

jenni
28-01-2004, 06:44 PM
In todays times it would be very likely that a parent would be consulting legal advise if his/her child died on that first day.

I don't think anyone was ever in any danger of dieing, not unless they had a pre-existing condition. Evelyn Fitzpatrick nearly died in Adelaide in 2000 at the schools comp, but then she had a severe heart condition. On the second day of the schools comp I insisted she stayed in our air-conditioned apartment and I refused to let her come anywhere near the playing hall. (Evelyn did in fact die from her heart condition a year later).

adelaideuni
28-01-2004, 07:15 PM
Great!

I'll get the ball rolling and send a PM to Kerry straight away.

chesslover
28-01-2004, 07:25 PM
I think for future events, there needs to be someone who can act as a guide for organisers of events such as the National Schools and the Australian Junior (perhaps a junior equivalent to the 'ACF Tournament Co-ordinator' position which I think still exists) to ensure that there are minimum standards that can be expected of a competition, no matter where it is held. Yes, we want to have the tournament spread around Australia so as to give kids, parents, organisers, etc a chance to experience different things, meet new people, and generally enjoy themselves in places where they might not ordinarily go, while not taking away from the individual character of tournaments held in different cities around the country.

Perhaps we can consider Perth 2004 as a learning experience?

good positive post. every cloud does have a silver lining. The glass is half full, not half empty. what does not kill us, only makes us stronger

Kerry Stead
28-01-2004, 07:31 PM
I know there was also a report done on the 1999 Australian Open, which I had (perhaps still have) a copy of. It was around 12 pages long from memory and looked at both good and bad things that came of the tournament, as well as how things were done. I came across it simply through asking the organisers of previous Australian Open / Championships for information when investigating the possibility of putting in a bid for the Australian Open in the past. Obviously these potential bids have gone no-where, however I am definitely more well informed as a result of seeing such a report. I'll try to dig up a soft copy and post it if I can find it.

Alex, you can save the PM. The report sounds like a great idea. Think it would be a great benefit to potential organisers of ACF events, particularly if they are outside the major centres, as it is generally these people who have not had the experience that organisers in Sydney or Melbourne (for example) might have.

adelaideuni
28-01-2004, 07:49 PM
Great stuff Kerry.

It is my feeling that I should start doing something on this report now. (strike while the iron is hot)

Well what i will do very soon to start this all off is this:

-create a page on the website www.unichess.org (and perhaps have a link on the ACF website) that has a copy of the Championships report (which is still in draft version sorry !) and then have a Query form or equivalent where people can start sending ideas to me about what they think works for the Championships/Open/Juniors/Teams (all the national events). This allows everyone to have some sort of input into the running of future events and ensure that certain hiccups are avoided.

-We will create separate reports for each national event and focus in on 2 major aspects: ACF requirements (what is expected) and then general stuff about what an Organiser needs to do (before and during the event) etc.

Obviously such a report would need some input or proofreading by the ACF and some sort of section that is agreed upon by ACF members as to what the requirements should be ( I might leave that in your capable hands Kerry). Let me know Kerry what course of action would be best.

- I might then get Jenni or someone to send me some names of people who would be wise enough to pass on knowledge.

The report would be always accessible and could be continually updated until the next event.

If someone has a problem with this scenario, let me know because I don't want to tread on anyone's toes.

General feedback would also be appreciated.

jenni
28-01-2004, 08:45 PM
- I might then get Jenni or someone to send me some names of people who would be wise enough to pass on knowledge.


.

Two excellent people for ideas on the Aus Juniors would be Roly Eime and Charles Zworestine. One of both of those two have been involved in almost every juniors since 1998. I know they have written a number of tournament reports.

For the schools comp - I have been at every schools comp since it started in 1998. Graeme Gardiner would be a good source as well, given he started it and had very clear ideas as to what he wanted from it. Ian Murray and Lionel Smerdon ran a good comp in Brisbane in 2001. Patricia Then also had excellent organisation in Adelaide in 2000.

I have notes from the meeting in Perth, which I held, which I have to type up and send to Kerry Stead - people putting forward ideas at that meeting, included Manuel Weeks, Geoff Saw, Daniella Nutu-Gajic, Graeme Gardiner and Kerry Stead, so I am sure the ideas from there will be valuable. I will make sure I send you a copy as well.

adelaideuni
28-01-2004, 09:14 PM
Thanks Jenni. I think i have all their contacts but will let you know if not.

I think it might be best i create a new thread under Australian Chess once i have created the webpage for the report.

Alex.

peanbrain
28-01-2004, 10:32 PM
so the conclusion is thess WA organisors are just hopeless at organising national events??

Looks like it is the case given only patzerdad the only one defending the fiasco in Perth - and with very weak arguments. Anyway, thank god I am too old to play at junior events, otherwise I may end up doing a "firegoat" with Norbert ......

Garvinator
28-01-2004, 11:12 PM
I find this amazing. It is an ACF event for crying out load. How can some arrigant dipstick decide to totally ignore the ACF president in this matter.
When the dipstick gets to organise and run the dipstick championship then he can make up his own rules. Until then for ACF events its the ACF rules.
is this really bill gletsos posting this comment as i sounds very unbill like :hmm:

PHAT
28-01-2004, 11:14 PM
As for the rumours that patzerdad eludes to, much like many other things that are seen here, facts should be checked first. I have also been in contact with one of the parties involved, needless to say they are stunned and angered by the post.


I have been a boy I have been a youth , I have been a "lad" and I am a middle aged man, so let me say this: 13 yearold girls should not be sitting the knee/lap of any 19 yearold youth. No father of a girl would disagree with me.

Bill Gletsos
28-01-2004, 11:17 PM
something that has been talked about on here and i havent yet seen an acf official dispute it is that it is mandated that the playing hall(s) must be air-conditioned.
That is because as far as I know it isnt explicitly mentioned as a requirement in the ACF by-laws for the Aus junior. In fact I dont think it is explicitly mentioned in any ACF By-law for any ACF tournament.

I note that jenni mentions it was decided by those attending a past Aus Schools Team Championship that it would be a requirement but it appears this was never raised at any subsequent ACF meeting.

Rincewind
28-01-2004, 11:19 PM
I have been a boy I have been a youth , I have been a "lad" and I am a middle aged man, so let me say this: 13 yearold girls should not be sitting the knee/lap of any 19 yearold youth. No father of a girl would disagree with me.

I'm not the father of a girl but I think there are 19-y-o boys and there are 19-y-o boys and then there are 13-y-o girls and there are 13-y-o girls, and then there is sitting on the knee and sitting on the knee.

Short answer is best not to generalise, mileage may vary. You have to trust the parents.

Bill Gletsos
28-01-2004, 11:21 PM
is this really bill gletsos posting this comment as i sounds very unbill like :hmm:
Why do you say that.
If you have been following this whole thread you would have seen me criticise Norbert's failure to heed those who knew what the rules were.

Garvinator
28-01-2004, 11:22 PM
Why do you say that.
If you have been following this whole thread you would have seen me criticise Norbert's failure to heed those who knew what the rules were.
sorry i thought there was speculation previously that there were two bill gletsos on here. I know you have been critical of him but it sounded like something broadz would say :wink:

Bill Gletsos
28-01-2004, 11:34 PM
Firstly Broadz would have sworn more and probably had a few [censored]'s thrown in. :lol:

There was someone impersonating me under a similar username to mine. That id has been deleted.

It was easy to tell the difference. Their post count was between 1 and 5. mine is over 2000. So if you arent sure then check the post count and you should be able to pick the imposter. :wink:

Garvinator
28-01-2004, 11:43 PM
Firstly Broadz would have sworn more and probably had a few [censored]'s thrown in. :lol:

There was someone impersonating me under a similar username to mine. That id has been deleted.

It was easy to tell the difference. Their post count was between 1 and 5. mine is over 2000. So if you arent sure then check the post count and you should be able to pick the imposter. :wink:
i notice broadz hasnt returned since then :doh: :lol: :owned:

skip to my lou
28-01-2004, 11:52 PM
better fix that eh..

skip to my lou
28-01-2004, 11:53 PM
Fixed. :owned:

ChessGuru
29-01-2004, 12:19 AM
Oh so many things which could be said! But i have no time in my life for this....so i'll be quick.

1. I was on the disputes committee at the start of the tournament and I was sure we recommended that the draw for the girls be changed. I was surprised that it wasn't!
2. I wrote a set of rules for handing out prizes many years ago ('95 I think) which are still in the ACF by-laws...they should have been followed. Simple. I was going to make an effort to get involved and try to get things done properly because I knew it was going to be a disaster...sorry for not being bothered. Please apologise to Miona on my behalf...
3. Can Kerry, Jenni and Andrew please send me any reports on any tournaments which might be of use to me planning the next Aus Open, Schools & Juniors. Although I think the best Junior Champs in recent times was Morwell, 2000, and i have been involved with almost every Junior since about 1991 so i'm fairly confident of running a good one!
4. I know both the 19 and 13 y.o's in question very well and have no doubt that it is perfectly innocent. However, not everyone who is there knows them both and Mr 19y.o. should be warned that perception is everything, and regardless of if parents are present or not it is still inappropriate behaviour to exhibit.
5. While I appreciate people's concerns about little sunburn boy they weren't the ones who had to sit with him for 4 hours each night nursing him to sleep! Nor did they see him during the day playing table tennis and transfer chess (btw, half the under 12 kids don't sit down at the board to play their games!) or make mention of anything until the little gossip queens (damn bored parents and their Chinese Whispers!) transformed the situation from an uncomfortable boy with bad sunburn into something with 3rd degree burns, uncaring parents, irresponsible supervisors and the Black Death seeping out of his back onto all the other children in the tournament!
6. I'd like to hear more opinions about Girls' tournaments. The top girls DON'T play anyway (Shannon Oliver, Angela Song etc) which diminishes the value and numbers in the girls only event. I would be interested to see how many girls didn't play if it were just an OPEN with a "Top Girl" prize and title awarded within an Open event. (Michelle Lee for example would be much more likely to play if this was the case...) The ACF rules allow for girls to win 2 titles (if one is a girls' title) so girls are being encouraged to play still. Figures: between 27 and 33 girls (both u/12 & u/18) attended each of the previous 5 Aus Juniors out of a total entry of between 134 and 164.
7. Norbert is Norbert. He is well known for his way of handling things and I think it was the ACF's responsibility (Kerry and George both were there!) to have ensured the presentations ran smoothly, particularly knowing (or being able to sense) the impending disaster. Sometimes you just have to pull rank even if it is uncomfortable...
8. What do you think about an Under 20's as a subsidiary tournament to the Aus Juniors? (World Junior is U/20 - Aus Junior is U/18)
9. Playing hall heat - A/C is part of the ACF by-laws....it ended up not being a problem, but could very easily have been.
10. Maybe down the track we'll get a sponsor who will enable us to run Aus Junior and Championship events with the same format and same organisers over the period of a few (5-10) years and that will solve our continuity problem and produce a growing tournament rather than a stagnating tournament (numbers over past 5 years: 134, 164, 164, 138, 143 - not much growth). Will people be able to handle this though?

Bill Gletsos
29-01-2004, 12:40 AM
Oh so many things which could be said! But i have no time in my life for this....so i'll be quick.

2. I wrote a set of rules for handing out prizes many years ago ('95 I think) which are still in the ACF by-laws...they should have been followed.
Are you referring to ACF By-law 3. If not can you please provide a reference to the specific By-law.



9. Playing hall heat - A/C is part of the ACF by-laws....it ended up not being a problem, but could very easily have been.
Can you cite the relevant by-law.

All I can find is:
c. whether air conditioning is available;

under section 19 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments.

All this implies is that whether A/C is available or not just needs to be mentioned. Not that it is a requirement.

paulb
29-01-2004, 10:41 AM
A few things.

First an apology to the junior organisers for confusion over ACF bylaws on the website. The ACF last year went through a bit of effort to ensure the Constitution/bylaws on the site were correct, but it seems there are still mistakes. I'm not completely sure what has happened here; oone possibility is that the updated files were lost when the site was hacked and then "restored" by the ISP - certainly I know some things went wrong with that restoration.
It's my responsibility to maintain the site, however, so my apologies.

Second, I'm about to attack this thread with my big red texta. A large number of posts will be deleted, and/or amended. People usually cry blue murder when I do this, which is why I'm giving you some warning. The cull will happen on the weekend. If you want to save anything you've written, do so now.

Why the cull?
1. Some of the attacks on the WA organisers are overly personal.
2. Personal attacks are almost always counterproductive.
2a. I note that the person most under attack here has not defended himself, perhaps because he lacks the computer access to do so. I don't think that's a healthy situation.
3. the focus should be on issues, not individuals.
4. Private email discussions (eg) might not be a better way to conduct these debates.
5. Inter-state rivalries and disputes are not very helpful.

I note that there have been some very positive suggestions put forward and these will be retained.

jenni
29-01-2004, 11:04 AM
That is because as far as I know it isnt explicitly mentioned as a requirement in the ACF by-laws for the Aus junior. In fact I dont think it is explicitly mentioned in any ACF By-law for any ACF tournament.

I note that jenni mentions it was decided by those attending a past Aus Schools Team Championship that it would be a requirement but it appears this was never raised at any subsequent ACF meeting.

After Adelaide 2000 I was told that it was raised at an ACF meeting and agreed by the ACF that air conditioning would be a mandatory part of schools competitions. Possibly this was not put into any bylaws and it is this sort of thing that needs to be sorted out. We need a proper list of conditions for the various tournaments and bids should have to address the conditions.

Here is the bid from WA received in JUne 2003

Dear All,


Please find attached the proposed budget for the 2003 Australian Schools Championship and the 2004 Australian Juniors Championship, together with a draft copy of the entry details for the Australian Juniors. Entry details for the Australian Schools event will be forthcoming shortly. The structure of the Australian Schools event will follow the format of the very successful and enjoyable event held last year in Melbourne under the auspices of the V.C.A.

Please take time to study the attached documentation and direct enquiries to me during the hook-up on Monday evening.




Regards,

Norbert Muller,

( President, J.C.C.W.A. )

Proposed Budget

2003 Australian Schools Championship
2004 Australian Junior Championship



INCOME:

Entry Fees: (100 Players ) $6000.00
Canteen: $350.00
Government: $5000.00
Sponsorship: $7000.00


TOTAL: $18350.00



EXPENSES:

Venue Hire: $2000.00
Equipment: $5000.00
Canteen Supplies: $175.00
Advertising: $800.00
Entry Fee Subsidies: $500.00
D.O.P. Fees: $3000.00
Prize Money: $5000.00
Trophies: $1000.00
Bulletins: $1000.00
Coaching: $500.00


TOTAL: $18975.00





Norbert Muller,

( President, J.C.C.W.A. )

27 June, 2003.

As well as this there was an entry form for the Aus juniors.

To me this is a bit lacking in the details that I would have thought a bid should consist of. I know why the ACF accepted this "bid" - it was the end of June and all the junior bodies were throwing a wobbly, because we did not know where the comps were going to be held. I suspect at this point the ACF gave up trying to get a proper bid and let WA get away with it. Perhaps something to learn from for the future.

jenni
29-01-2004, 11:10 AM
I'm not the father of a girl but I think there are 19-y-o boys and there are 19-y-o boys and then there are 13-y-o girls and there are 13-y-o girls, and then there is sitting on the knee and sitting on the knee.

Short answer is best not to generalise, mileage may vary. You have to trust the parents.
I have to agree with this. I am an incredibly over protective parent, but I would have no problems letting Tamzin sit on the lap of this particualr 19 year old!

He sent me an e-mail immediately after Kerry Stead drew his attention to the bulletin board and said he would be more careful in future, but it hadn't even occurred to him that the 13 year old had started growing up - he had just known her for so long.

What is particularly annoying about patzerdad's statement, is that he has slandered 2 really nice kids, one of them a truly great chess talent, in order to have something nasty to say about me. If that is the worst thing that he can accuse me of, then he is really not trying!

adelaideuni
29-01-2004, 12:10 PM
Under the forum Australian Chess, is the new thread on "Australian National Events Reports."

Have a read and get involved.

Please tell any entrants or parents about this page too so we can get the best response.

Alex.

jeffrei
29-01-2004, 02:25 PM
6. I'd like to hear more opinions about Girls' tournaments. The top girls DON'T play anyway (Shannon Oliver, Angela Song etc) which diminishes the value and numbers in the girls only event. I would be interested to see how many girls didn't play if it were just an OPEN with a "Top Girl" prize and title awarded within an Open event. (Michelle Lee for example would be much more likely to play if this was the case...) The ACF rules allow for girls to win 2 titles (if one is a girls' title) so girls are being encouraged to play still. Figures: between 27 and 33 girls (both u/12 & u/18) attended each of the previous 5 Aus Juniors out of a total entry of between 134 and 164.

For a long time the Girls tournament hasn't been about finding the best Girls player in Australia. At the moment we have an absurd situation where the weak girls players are put in one tournament (the so-called 'Girls' tournament), while the strong girls players and the boys are put in another (the 'Open' tournament). The standard of the separated 'Girls' tournament has totally stagnated over the past few years, and in the next few years it will become increasingly ridiculous. Now is a good time to pull the plug on it. Certainly girls-only events are important at the level of the local club or junior organisation, but at the more elite level of national competition I don't see any reason to continue the separation of girls and boys.

Perhaps a few girls would be put off by having to play with the boys, but who cares? The cure is worse than the disease here. Keeping them happy is not worth the side-effect that so many of the titles tend to lose their meaning. I would much rather see Girls titles won multiple times by Michelle Lee or Heather Huddleston or Angela Song than by pass into the hands of random 1200 players who just happen to be 'next in line'. Yes several people will whinge, but I think most of them have pretty obvious vested interests in keeping things separated (i.e. they or their children or their students can't compete with the likes of Michelle/Heather/Angela and don't want to try. By the way, ever wonder what happens to these 'girls-only' players? They ALWAYS quit as soon as their junior years are over because they were weak to start with and because this weakness was accentuated by their refusal to seek out genuine competition with the boys).

Putting the girls and boys together would be good for girls chess. In general it is hard for a junior to become significantly better than the strongest player amongst his or her peers. Improvement for girls therefore becomes difficult if the standards are so terribly low. As a coach I'd much rather say to my girl students 'get to 1600 strength and you can win a title' instead of 'get to 1200 strength and you can win a title'. It might be tougher but it's much more rewarding for the individuals involved.


8. What do you think about an Under 20's as a subsidiary tournament to the Aus Juniors? (World Junior is U/20 - Aus Junior is U/18)

This is another excellent idea.

The under-20 tournament in Mount Buller could potentially include the following list of players (all over 18 but under 20): Zong-Yuan Zhao, Tomej Rej, George Xie, Justin Tan, Kuan-Kuan Tian, Denis Bourmistrov, John Nemeth, Ilya Zvedeniouk, Michael Yu, Catherine Lip, Shannon Oliver, Giang Nguyen.

Aside from helping to address the problem of juniors quitting chess for year 11&12 and then never coming back, including an under-20 section will make the Australian Juniors a much stronger and more prestigious event.

/jef

PS: If anyone wants to see some gruesome statistics, work out the average age of Australian Girls Champion (that's under-18) for the last 4 years. Is it above or below 12? Also, work out the proportion of juniors who quit during the age 15-18. I accept that some degree of attrition is natural but accepting a retention rate of almost zero is not the way to go.

jeffrei
29-01-2004, 02:33 PM
To answer more directly David's question about the 'Girls' tournament - I think a few people would whinge but that almost all the girls (out of that mammoth number of 33!) would turn up anyway. Furthermore, some girls - the good ones especially - would be more likely to turn up.

/jef

Bill Gletsos
29-01-2004, 02:50 PM
This is another excellent idea.

The under-20 tournament in Mount Buller could potentially include the following list of players (all over 18 but under 20): Zong-Yuan Zhao, Tomej Rej, George Xie, Justin Tan, Kuan-Kuan Tian, Denis Bourmistrov, John Nemeth, Ilya Zvedeniouk, Michael Yu, Catherine Lip, Shannon Oliver, Giang Nguyen.

Aside from helping to address the problem of juniors quitting chess for year 11&12 and then never coming back, including an under-20 section will make the Australian Juniors a much stronger and more prestigious event.
Isn't it more likely that many of the above named players will choose to play in the Australian Championship or Australian Open as opposed to a Australian Junior U/20 tournament.

BroadZ
29-01-2004, 03:25 PM
i reckon jeffs thinkin the right way with:
1) gettin the girls playin with the guys - with most of the stronger/strongest girls playin in the u/12 or u/18 winning the girls u/18 or 12 wouldnt hold much meaning. after heather won the u/18 its likely shell go and play in the open next year, ive heard that rebecca wont play in the girls tournament next year either, who does that leave to win it next year? whoever it is will probably have a rating 1400-, so thatd mean that shed hold the title for being the best girl in australia, yet shes still worse than almost all the other girls who decided to play in a stronger competition and join the boys in the open - doesnt seem right to me...

2)making the u/18 into u/20 - this year, im sure there wasnt much of a doubt in ppls minds that whoever was gonna win the aussie jnrs, it was going to be either sam or denis - making it u/20 would make it much more interesting next year - and there are alotta fast improving jnrs who by the time they were 18 could be 2000 or thereabouts, you tell me that you wouldnt be interested in seeing such a strong field in the jnrs for many years to come



Chesslover, the bb somehow found it nescessary to delete my comment that Norbert Muller is [deleted] :wink:
that was in the same post where i asked ya for an apology, since right bfore then you all seemed to share my views on him

BroadZ
29-01-2004, 03:34 PM
its beena while since ive checked the bb so im a bit late sayin this but....

Patzerdad:

"The 13yo girl chess player squirming in the lap of a well known 19 year old(at the closing ceremony no less, and no more than 5metres from where Jenni Oliver was standing)"


you sick s.o.b

jenni
29-01-2004, 04:01 PM
To answer more directly David's question about the 'Girls' tournament - I think a few people would whinge but that almost all the girls (out of that mammoth number of 33!) would turn up anyway. Furthermore, some girls - the good ones especially - would be more likely to turn up.

/jef

I think the thing you are all missing is that the girls comp is there to promote girls chess - we have so few girls playing in elite comps - if you take away a comp like this and make them play in with boys then you run the risk of losing girls and with so few playing each loss is a large %

Take Shannon (now regarded as a strong girl). Her first experience of competitive chess was in Sydney in 1996. Gareth was playing in the open under 12 and we didn't know what to do with Shannon for 2 weeks, so asked if she could play the girls. She scored the gigantic total of 1/2 point and was regarded as pathetically weak. However she loved the girls environment and it made her keen to go back to Canberra and play chess. Prior to that she used to go to the chess club with Gareth, but never actually played any games - just too scary to play the boys.

I agree that if you combine the girls and open, you will get almost all the current girls - but it is the new ones you will lose.

I totally support the fact that the strong girls leave the girls comp and play in the open once they have won the girls - that is their right in order to get stronger. If they want to leave before they have won it - that is their right too.

The problem with combining the two comps, is the same as for having the Women's title as part of the aus champs - titles from mid field are meaningless.

This whole thing is being attacked from the wrong end. Instead of lamenting the weakness of the girls and then guaranteeing to make it even weaker in the future by combining it, rather work on chess at the state level.

Does Victoria have a girls only primary schools comp - ACT had 300 girls play in ours last year. From there we idenified girls like Lara Ong. We encourage all our girls to play in girls only and open comps and I think our strategies led the ACT to win 3 of the 6 trophies on offer in the girls under 12, as well as winning hte girls primary schools. Why did NSW not have a single under 10 girl playing in WA?

So yes the girls comps are embarrassingly bad, but we need to work at a state level to improve it, not throw the baby out with the bath water.

jenni
29-01-2004, 04:05 PM
Isn't it more likely that many of the above named players will choose to play in the Australian Championship or Australian Open as opposed to a Australian Junior U/20 tournament.

Speaking for Shannon, she would probably play both. She would play Aus Open as a serious one and the under 20 for fun. (Although she would also like to be an ACT coach next year, so that might present a little bit of a problem).

The ACTJCL has opened membership and competitions to under 20's as we have found our juniors going off to Uni this year would still like to be able to join in our comps and we thought it might be a way of keeping older juniors playing for longer.

The smile on Jeremy Reading's face when I told him he didn't need to leave us yet proved our decision was right!

shaun
29-01-2004, 06:21 PM
8. What do you think about an Under 20's as a subsidiary tournament to the Aus Juniors? (World Junior is U/20 - Aus Junior is U/18)

Is this as a completely separate tournament or as part of the Australian Juniors. If it is the latter it has been tried. and rejected, before.
Without going into two much detail the pro's included the World Junior age limits and the retention of 19 and 20 year olds, and the cons included the undesireability of having 18 and 19 year olds (who are legally adults) mixing with non-adults, and the resultant problems that could be caused (drinking, hooning about etc etc). But in the end what killed it was that when the Australian Junior went to U/20 a total of 1 player aged between 18 and 20 bothered to enter.

shaun
29-01-2004, 06:26 PM
The ACTJCL has opened membership and competitions to under 20's as we have found our juniors going off to Uni this year would still like to be able to join in our comps and we thought it might be a way of keeping older juniors playing for longer.

Actually I think this not a good move. When this has been tried in the ACT in the past what was a steady stream of players moving from the junior world to the senior one, both in chess and in life, suddenly dried to a trickle, at least in the chess world. If you want players to be juniors for as long as possible I suggest you read my post about bridge in the off-topic section for the possible effects.

jenni
29-01-2004, 07:19 PM
Actually I think this not a good move. When this has been tried in the ACT in the past what was a steady stream of players moving from the junior world to the senior one, both in chess and in life, suddenly dried to a trickle, at least in the chess world. If you want players to be juniors for as long as possible I suggest you read my post about bridge in the off-topic section for the possible effects.

Things are very different in the ACT now Shaun, so I think past experiences are not relevant.

I think just a perusal of the players at Belconnen Chess Club shows that a vibrant and active junior organisation is doing good things for adult chess - all of the juniors playing there are current and active members of the ACTJCL.

There would not be many tournaments open to the older kids, as most of our tournaments are aimed at primary kids e.g. under 8, under 10 etc. However they would still be able to play in the Autumn Junior Weekender and the ACT Juniors, as well as fun ones like the Rapid and Lightning.

I think far from participation in 4 tournaments stopping them from continuing at an adult club, it is likely to be the other way round.

Anyway we are listening to our members, rather than making decisions for them and this is what they want.

Chess Dad
29-01-2004, 07:31 PM
I am also interested in other parents' opinion of Norbert, in particular. I know you must have spoken to them at length. Did they also share your general opinion? From your postings we get the feeling that Norbert and the rest of the WA mob aren't exactly the best people to work with. Anyone else in WA you had problems with or just Norbert?

What about Mr Cronan - you have anything to add?

AR


Sorry AR, I had to cancel my trip at the last minute due to problems at work, so I can't comment.

jenni
29-01-2004, 07:42 PM
Actually I think this not a good move. When this has been tried in the ACT in the past what was a steady stream of players moving from the junior world to the senior one, both in chess and in life, suddenly dried to a trickle, at least in the chess world. If you want players to be juniors for as long as possible I suggest you read my post about bridge in the off-topic section for the possible effects.
I went and read the bridge post, which was very interesting. Tony was a Bridge player for many years and moved to chess because of the children.

He has always said that bridge is just more fun and social than chess, so I am not surprised that there are big numbers. The nationals also has the advantage of always being in Canberra, thus having continuity and certainty.

However very few juniors play bridge and certainly not very little juniors. I know bridge in canberra now has a schools program and I have come across a few schools who are taking up bridge, but it certainly doesn't seem to have the reach that the chess schools program has in Canberra.

Chess has the advantage of having really large numbers of children playing chess. Now we have to work out a migration plan from the junior environment to the senior. What we are doing in the ACT (and Box Hill and Gold Coast) seems to be working. Only time will tell if this really does increase the retention of young adults in chess clubs, or whether the increasingly hectic life of 24 to 50 year olds will make it all but impossible to have club play as a regular activity. I know you have had problems with this since you started your family.

jenni
29-01-2004, 07:51 PM
Anyone else in WA you had problems with

AR
I would like to put on record my very deep appreciation of Jill Cassidy and her team of workers in the canteen. They worked very long hours for many days and did a great job - all the children really appreciated their efforts.

Denis McMahon, president of the CA of WA , was really nice and co-operative and a great public speaker.

I noticed Natalie Taylor among others, working away for many hours typing in games and thank-you to her and the other games people.

Fiona van Heerden had a hard job organising the accommodation and other aspects - anything we asked her to do, she tried her utmost to come up with a solution for us and we were very happy with her solutions.

Allan Russell
29-01-2004, 08:32 PM
[QUOTE=jeffrei]
Perhaps a few girls would be put off by having to play with the boys, but who cares? The cure is worse than the disease here. Keeping them happy is not worth the side-effect that so many of the titles tend to lose their meaning. I would much rather see Girls titles won multiple times by Michelle Lee or Heather Huddleston or Angela Song than by pass into the hands of random 1200 players who just happen to be 'next in line'. Yes several people will whinge, but I think most of them have pretty obvious vested interests in keeping things separated (i.e. they or their children or their students can't compete with the likes of Michelle/Heather/Angela and don't want to try. By the way, ever wonder what happens to these 'girls-only' players? They ALWAYS quit as soon as their junior years are over because they were weak to start with and because this weakness was accentuated by their refusal to seek out genuine competition with the boys).


As a parent of one of these "pathetic, weak girls" I find the tone of this message offensive. Some of the points made may have merit, but care of others feelings, especially young people's, should always be considered. Chess is cut-throat enough without the use of inappropriate language.

I believe that these comments demonstrate a lack of understanding of how difficult it can be for many girls to enter a strongly male dominated sport. If this provides an "in" for them, with some going on to greater achievements, then surely the tournament has achieved a desirable goal? Many of the young boys who come to tournaments also drop out... so?

Allan

jenni
29-01-2004, 09:05 PM
Many of the young boys who come to tournaments also drop out... so?

Allan

I think Allan has made a good point here - many of the boys drop out in large numbers as well. e.g. count the number of boys 16 and over playing in Perth.

However it does not seem as bad, because of the much larger number playing to start with.

Comes back to the same solution - increase the number of girls playing at the state level and you will increase number and strength at the aus juniors.

Incidentally a past Australian Junior Champion made the comment to me that he thought the open Under 18 in Perth was very weak and the quality of games poor. Perhaps it is not just the girls that is getting bad, but we have an overall problem?

Eric
30-01-2004, 11:27 AM
First, In the junior ranks girls do frequently play against boys. Michelle Lee, Shannon Oliver, Heather Huddleston, Angela Song etc. frequently play in tournaments against men.


Second, it's not a question of whether they play males or not, but that the chess environment is often one not conducive to young girl participation ie tournaments taking place in clubs etc. Also the attitudes of many males, and I include adults here, is often sexist and hostile toward young girls. This is particularly the case when the males lose!! This also is not a conducive environment for female participation.

Third, female titles allow the girls something to 'shoot for' and after achieving them they enter into the 'open 'ranks.
This can be seen from several of the last Australian Girl's Champions.
WIthout these titles girls would be totally swamped by the overwhelmeing numbers of males and have little chance to acheive some sucess.

It does look now that the junior female ranks are weak, but time will fix that. Catherine, Michelle, Shannon, Heather and Angela were once like Alex, Amy, Miona and Tamzin. If these girls persist they will also become stronger. Ask the older girls and young women who went through the ranks and they'll tell you the competition is overall rougher amonst the girls than it was 8 years ago. This is , in part, due to a more professional attitude on the part of the girls. Many get regular coaching and, more than ever before, have participated overseas.

Chess, like other sports, has times where a 'new' generation of players comes up that looks weaker than those before. Typically this is an illusion and you'll see some fine players develop out of those who were in Perth. (Both male and female.)

Finally, it is sad that the tournament in Perth had its problems. Hopefully, as Jenni mentioned, we will learn from them and go forward.

Also, I find the often abusive manner of some posters, who attempt to personalise every issue,to be unhelpful and at times a deliberate attempt to undermine effective discussion. Further, the use of explectives does not denote sophistication of earthiness, but is a form of psychological assault on the reader.

rob
30-01-2004, 05:09 PM
I would like to put on record my very deep appreciation of Jill Cassidy and her team of workers in the canteen. They worked very long hours for many days and did a great job - all the children really appreciated their efforts.

Denis McMahon, president of the CA of WA , was really nice and co-operative and a great public speaker.

I noticed Natalie Taylor among others, working away for many hours typing in games and thank-you to her and the other games people.

Fiona van Heerden had a hard job organising the accommodation and other aspects - anything we asked her to do, she tried her utmost to come up with a solution for us and we were very happy with her solutions.

I will pass on your thanks to ppl when I see them (CAWA meeting Monday). Thanks also for all your other comments - I believe you and Kerry Stead have a fairly good feel for how things went.
BTW Natalie Taylor is now Natalie Maris.

Bill Gletsos
30-01-2004, 06:43 PM
Rob,

Can you make sure Fred is sent all the Aust Junior SP files ASAP if he hasnt received them yet. They need to be processed in the March 2004 ACF ratings.

jenni
30-01-2004, 10:37 PM
BTW Natalie Taylor is now Natalie Maris.

Sorry! - and belated congratulations.