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antichrist
24-06-2005, 11:34 PM
Bill, can you put it to the approp body, that members of all future rep teams and officials, make a stat dec or some other approp declaration, that they will abide by all requests of FIDE to participate in drug testing.

And that if refuse such requests by FIDE, and the teams' games are disqualifed, that the offending member must compensate all the other members of the team for their expenses of the trip.

Does ACF have a policy on this issue?

PHAT
25-06-2005, 12:57 AM
Does ACF have a policy on this issue?

No doubt, a rhetoric quetstion ;)

ursogr8
25-06-2005, 11:03 AM
Bill, can you put it to the approp body, that members of all future rep teams and officials, make a stat dec or some other approp declaration, that they will abide by all requests of FIDE to participate in drug testing.

And that if refuse such requests by FIDE, and the teams' games are disqualifed, that the offending member must compensate all the other members of the team for their expenses of the trip.

Does ACF have a policy on this issue?

a/c

Bill has already answered this on the NW Prez thread.
He clearly indicated NO.

starter

antichrist
25-06-2005, 11:42 AM
I thought he didn't answer as he deemed a federal issue and thus off-thread topic, that is why I moved it over here, and then he could choose to answer or not.

Have you noticed Bill like this before? On a serious topic on which he is on the committee (presuming he is on ACF).

If items are to be mentioned at ACF can they be sent by individual members or must go through a state body?

Whenever I mention this topic it reminds me that I have AIDS!.

ursogr8
25-06-2005, 06:04 PM
I thought he didn't answer as he deemed a federal issue and thus off-thread topic, that is why I moved it over here, and then he could choose to answer or not.

Have you noticed Bill like this before? On a serious topic on which he is on the committee (presuming he is on ACF).

If items are to be mentioned at ACF can they be sent by individual members or must go through a state body?

Whenever I mention this topic it reminds me that I have AIDS!.

a/c

Nobody is avoiding you on this topic. It is just that you transparently want to take a shot at another poster, and yet you are unwilling to respond to the invitation to say how you would act under similar circumstances, You are being unfair, and that is unAustralian.

Now, slowly once again, which drug do you think should be tested for in case chess-players are taking it for performance-enhancing reasons.
If you are unwilling to debate, then you will attract none but the addicts with your troll.

starter

antichrist
25-06-2005, 06:17 PM
a/c

Nobody is avoiding you on this topic. It is just that you transparently want to take a shot at another poster, and yet you are unwilling to respond to the invitation to say how you would act under similar circumstances, You are being unfair, and that is unAustralian.

A/C
what my purpose is to establish a procedure in choosing teams and protocols that will prevent any very unfair fiascos from occuring. Isn't that a worthy cause. And unless there are penalities in place for preventing such well they can very well happen. I am not mentioning another poster like other people have because I am talking about Australian teams and the future.

STR
Now, slowly once again, which drug do you think should be tested for in case chess-players are taking it for performance-enhancing reasons.
If you are unwilling to debate, then you will attract none but the addicts with your troll.

starter

As this question is completely irrelevant is the reason why I won't touch it. I am not a medical person etc to pass comment on such anyway.

They can ban everything except bread, water and fresh air as far as I am concerned, as long as they make concessions for gluten-alergic people. And if they ban bottled water better still.

Denis_Jessop
25-06-2005, 06:21 PM
Bill, can you put it to the approp body, that members of all future rep teams and officials, make a stat dec or some other approp declaration, that they will abide by all requests of FIDE to participate in drug testing.

And that if refuse such requests by FIDE, and the teams' games are disqualifed, that the offending member must compensate all the other members of the team for their expenses of the trip.

Does ACF have a policy on this issue?

The general ACF policy on drug testing is as expressed by Graeme Gardiner in his President's report to the January 2002 National Conference, namely that the ACF would like to comply with the FIDE drugs policy but, because chess is not recognised as a sport by the Australian Sports Commission, the Australian Sports Drug Testing Agency will not carry out testing for us. This makes compliance difficult. Since then I believe there has been some rethinking, and certainly some ruction, within FIDE about drugs in chess. As far as I know there have not been any Australian representatives who have refused a FIDE drug test though one celebrated Australian Papua New Guinean did so.

DJ

antichrist
25-06-2005, 06:48 PM
The general ACF policy on drug testing is as expressed by Graeme Gardiner in his President's report to the January 2002 National Conference, namely that the ACF would like to comply with the FIDE drugs policy but, because chess is not recognised as a sport by the Australian Sports Commission, the Australian Sports Drug Testing Agency will not carry out testing for us. This makes compliance difficult. Since then I believe there has been some rethinking, and certainly some ruction, within FIDE about drugs in chess. As far as I know there have not been any Australian representatives who have refused a FIDE drug test though one celebrated Australian Papua New Guinean did so.

DJ

Thanks for replying.

a) Is it the responsibility of ACF to ensure that testing takes place at all before leaving Australia or prior to assembly at competition event?

b) Is there a list compiled by FIDE or the Australian Sports Drug Testing Agency of prohibited substances that is freely available to players?

c) Just out of interest what would happen if a major chess event were to be held in Australia and us having no facility available?

d) "..Bill, can you put it to the approp body, that members of all future rep teams and officials, make a stat dec or some other approp declaration, that they will abide by all requests of FIDE to participate in drug testing.

And that if refuse such requests by FIDE, and the teams' games are disqualifed, that the offending member must compensate all the other members of the team for their expenses of the trip."
..............................
I think it is only with the above provision that team members can be guaranteed that they will not face any unnecessary trouble.

Don't you think that after all the sacrifice, application of a lifetime, expense etc that team members deserve such a guarantee? One could even earn GM norm points over the board and yet be very unjustly denied them!

e) Can individual members of state organisations send motions to ACF or must they come via state bodies?

Denis_Jessop
25-06-2005, 11:07 PM
Thanks for replying.

a) Is it the responsibility of ACF to ensure that testing takes place at all before leaving Australia or prior to assembly at competition event?

b) Is there a list compiled by FIDE or the Australian Sports Drug Testing Agency of prohibited substances that is freely available to players?

c) Just out of interest what would happen if a major chess event were to be held in Australia and us having no facility available?

d) "..Bill, can you put it to the approp body, that members of all future rep teams and officials, make a stat dec or some other approp declaration, that they will abide by all requests of FIDE to participate in drug testing.

And that if refuse such requests by FIDE, and the teams' games are disqualifed, that the offending member must compensate all the other members of the team for their expenses of the trip."
..............................
I think it is only with the above provision that team members can be guaranteed that they will not face any unnecessary trouble.

Don't you think that after all the sacrifice, application of a lifetime, expense etc that team members deserve such a guarantee? One could even earn GM norm points over the board and yet be very unjustly denied them!

e) Can individual members of state organisations send motions to ACF or must they come via state bodies?


The answers to your questions on my current information are:

(a) No

(b) The FIDE Anti Doping Regulations, available at the FIDE website under the Medical Commission link, incorporate by reference the list of prohibited substances and methods available at tha World Anti-Doping Agency's website <www.wada-ama.org>.

(c) If a FIDE event were held in Australia it would seem that FIDE would be responsible for testing. Art 3.1 of the FIDE regs says that "FIDE is entitled to carry out doping control on any competitor in any FIDE competition".

(d) I don't know if you wanted Bill to field this one. My personal view is that Australian reps in FIDE competitions should comply with all properly applicable FIDE laws and regulations but I note that the FIDE anti-doping laws are a contentious issue, having given rise to debate and refusals by various people. I'd be reluctant to support your idea in full. The compensation provision and the liability of officials are questionable. I don't think that officials are subject to FIDE doping controls anyway.

(e) In brief, "no" - see my note on the ACF Performance thread. I see from this question that you were referring to members of a State Association so my point about the non-existence of ACF membership is not directly relevant.

DJ

antichrist
25-06-2005, 11:25 PM
The answers to your questions on my current information are:

(a) No

(b) The FIDE Anti Doping Regulations, available at the FIDE website under the Medical Commission link, incorporate by reference the list of prohibited substances and methods available at tha World Anti-Doping Agency's website <www.wada-ama.org>.

(c) If a FIDE event were held in Australia it would seem that FIDE would be responsible for testing. Art 3.1 of the FIDE regs says that "FIDE is entitled to carry out doping control on any competitor in any FIDE competition".

(d) I don't know if you wanted Bill to field this one. My personal view is that Australian reps in FIDE competitions should comply with all properly applicable FIDE laws and regulations but I note that the FIDE anti-doping laws are a contentious issue, having given rise to debate and refusals by various people. I'd be reluctant to support your idea in full. The compensation provision and the liability of officials are questionable. I don't think that officials are subject to FIDE doping controls anyway.

(e) In brief, "no" - see my note on the ACF Performance thread. I see from this question that you were referring to members of a State Association so my point about the non-existence of ACF membership is not directly relevant.

DJ

RE (c), in the unlikely event that FIDE would hold an event here, what would be the position of a testing facility? Would Australia be refused any such event by FIDE because of this restriction?

As my matter re "Reps" thread is not a state issue at all and as Bill has stated in NSWCA one on one with your prez" thread he won't handle it I don't expect a sympathetic hearing there but I will try.

I can see an issue like this, "Reps be legally", as no one wanting to touch which does not mean at all that it is not important.

There should be some mechanism for ordinary state members to have issues which are not considered by ACF, or judged negatively by ACF, to have recourse such as a referendum on the issue. This could be done 6 monthly or yearly.

That is some grassroot participation in democracy - even though that is not the purpose of the ACF. But it could be ordinary members or the children of ordinary members who are severely effected by non-decisions by ACF on an issue like this.

Look at the sacrifice that Jenni puts into chess and imagine if her kids brilliant games o/s were disqualified.

I 100% fund my nephew who is brilliant at sport and who may represent Aussie one day, if he got sabotaged due to someone else's action they would not look very pretty. Why? Because I have spent thousands and ferried him around everywhere, and he has sacrificed so much himself - dedicated his life to it.

I see the compensation provision (probably refers to players only) as the only guarantee players can have against been sabotaged.

I appreciate that you do handle national questions on the BB but I don't think that this issue should be avoided nor that players and their families should be expected to tolerate the status quo.

I can think of one chess parent whom I have recently debated, if his child's o/s games were sabotaged I imagine he would be mighty angered.

Thanks again for answering.

Bill Gletsos
25-06-2005, 11:58 PM
It does not appear to be an issue with the actual members of the Olympiad teams as none of them has seen fit to raise it with anyone as far as I am aware.

antichrist
26-06-2005, 12:31 AM
It does not appear to be an issue with the actual members of the Olympiad teams as none of them has seen fit to raise it with anyone as far as I am aware.

I could say "Ignorance sure is bliss" but that would not be the case I don't think.

I have heard of players, at the virtual highest level in Australia, who perform overseas and I expect represented Australia, who could get caught out in such testing.

So it is a ticking timebomb issue. When it does go off it could prevent someone like Zhoa becoming a GM or something. Imagine what a crime that would be and the egg on faces if this issue is not faced.

Brilliant chess players are known for their oddness, and some very intelligent people have misdirected liberterian views (but still most important members of society) and that is all we need for a team to be sabotaged.

Often players will not raise issues like this because it is embarrassing to bring up with your fellow players, and the smartarse, irresponsible liberterian type will take advantage of thier niceness. Or the more naive player may not see the danger. Brilliantance over the chess board does not prevent naivenss.

As stated elsewhere I know more about this issue than I will divulge - publically at least - and that extra info makes a hell of a difference.

If there is that strong deterence of a contract of compensaton then smartarse players will certainly think twice before risking other people's futures and previous sacrifices.

Just as defamo laws have a deterring effect.

Bill Gletsos
26-06-2005, 12:38 AM
But even if a player fails a drug test or refuses to submit to a drug test that has no impact on the scores of other members of the team, but only only on the player concerned.

Therefore if a member of the team scored a "norm" the failure of another member has no impact on him.

antichrist
26-06-2005, 01:05 AM
But even if a player fails a drug test or refuses to submit to a drug test that has no impact on the scores of other members of the team, but only only on the player concerned.

Therefore if a member of the team scored a "norm" the failure of another member has no impact on him.

Post No. 80

Results from my Drug Hearing

Official warning, all points I scored removed from myself and from the team.

Bill, usually you are terrific with your research and memory but not this time.

antichrist
26-06-2005, 01:12 AM
and:

It is unlikely that I will appeal as a) it costs money and b) the head of the panel is not going to provide us a written judgement within the 21 day period in which we can lodge an appeal.

When the judgment was handed down I made a statement disagreeing with the sentence as it was a punishment of my team, not just me, and I told them that I would have rather had the two year ban.

Bill Gletsos
26-06-2005, 01:19 AM
Post No. 80

Results from my Drug Hearing

Official warning, all points I scored removed from myself and from the team.

Bill, usually you are terrific with your research and memory but not this time.My memory is fine. It is your comprehension thats flawed.
The results of his team mates were not affected. Hence if any of them had scored a "norm" it would have stood. The team score was affected but the team doesnt score "norms".

Bill Gletsos
26-06-2005, 01:21 AM
and:

It is unlikely that I will appeal as a) it costs money and b) the head of the panel is not going to provide us a written judgement within the 21 day period in which we can lodge an appeal.

When the judgment was handed down I made a statement disagreeing with the sentence as it was a punishment of my team, not just me, and I told them that I would have rather had the two year ban.Irrelevant.

antichrist
26-06-2005, 01:24 AM
My memory is fine. It is your comprehension thats flawed.
The results of his team mates were not affected. Hence if any of them had scored a "norm" it would have stood. The team score was affected but the team doesnt score "norms".

Well for the first time I have seen it explained. It was reasonable to presume from that post that the team also lost their individual game ratings - as not stated otherwise.

No wonder his team mates were not that upset with him. YOU ARE SURE THIS IS THE CASE?

antichrist
26-06-2005, 01:28 AM
Irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant to their earning norms but they did suffer the loss of certain team points which must have some relevance as it was tried to be prevented.

Bill Gletsos
26-06-2005, 01:32 AM
Well for the first time I have seen it explained. It was reasonable to presume from that post that the team also lost their individual game ratings - as not stated otherwise.

No wonder his team mates were not that upset with him. YOU ARE SURE THIS IS THE CASE?Remember who you are talking to A/C. ;)

antichrist
26-06-2005, 01:41 AM
Well I can now sleep in peace thanks to Vader (whatever as name now deleted?) safely looking over the flock.

Actually been sick whole week almost so BBing too much. Abused myself playing chess outdoors until late at night only in tee shirt and shorts.

ACtually I make those comprehension mistakes due to earlier paying for BB time and don't recheck now.

About the other issue, FIDE can never hold a tourney here due to lack of testing facilities available? Actually the opposite, if they hold a tourney here everyone can come, even the druggies!

what happened to name on your picture, oldies like myself don't know who the images are otherwise (don't know even with name)

Denis_Jessop
26-06-2005, 12:53 PM
Hi A/C

Re the following passage from your post:

"RE (c), in the unlikely event that FIDE would hold an event here, what would be the position of a testing facility? Would Australia be refused any such event by FIDE because of this restriction?"

I'm really not sure.The matter is rather speculative and hypothetical at present. If FIDE did the testing they would presumably do so by their own arrangement with a testing body. As long as it is FIDE and not the ACF doing the testing, I don't see why Australia's ability to hold a FIDE event should be affected because of the ACF's problems with having ASDA do tests for us.

DJ

antichrist
26-06-2005, 06:20 PM
Hi A/C

Re the following passage from your post:

"RE (c), in the unlikely event that FIDE would hold an event here, what would be the position of a testing facility? Would Australia be refused any such event by FIDE because of this restriction?"

I'm really not sure.The matter is rather speculative and hypothetical at present. If FIDE did the testing they would presumably do so by their own arrangement with a testing body. As long as it is FIDE and not the ACF doing the testing, I don't see why Australia's ability to hold a FIDE event should be affected because of the ACF's problems with having ASDA do tests for us.

DJ

Maybe not, but as I see it if there is no body here prepared to do the testing then why would FIDE hold something here? We could be naive if we don't see it as a deterent. If the testing could be done outside ASDA it may cost a fortune.

I know this sounds like a dog chasing it's tail.