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Trent Parker
09-02-2005, 01:09 AM
Anyhow back to Mt buller issues.....

How long will the CD Buller-tins take to get to me?

eclectic
09-02-2005, 11:24 AM
Anyhow back to Mt buller issues.....

How long will the CD Buller-tins take to get to me?

Trent,

I have a feeling they've been ... "canned" !

;)

Mark

Oepty
09-02-2005, 01:04 PM
Andrew Saint has said they will happen, so they will happen. That I have great confidence in. When they will happen is a different question and one I cannot answer.
Scott

jenni
09-02-2005, 08:21 PM
Just arrived back from New Zealand, where we have been doing some touristy things down in Rotorua, after the zonal. Going to take awhile to catch up with all the posts on the BB. :)

I am not going to make any real comments on some of the stuff that has been written while I was in NZ - I have said enough over the last few months to make my opinion on various matters clear. I think for the sake of Australian chess we need to learn and move on and improve.

However, (because I am female I guess :owned: ), I can't be entirely silent.

I would like to put in a good word for Garvin. Yes he was inexperienced and needed to have someone good to work with, to learn how to run a big event. He made a lot of mistakes (as do we all) along the way. He and I had a number of clashes in the early days of me organising the schools comp and sticking my nose into other things. However I did come to have a measure of respect for his desire to make things work well. This may not have been obvious to all, but I often found that it was Garvin who was trying to find a solution that would result in a win-win situation.

The second is a more general reflection. I really enjoyed the zonal. It was very well run and friendly and I just enjoyed everything about it. it occurred to me that one of the best things was that chess seemed to be the most important thing and money was secondary. The emphasis was totally on the chess and the players. In Mt Buller I just always felt that the profit and the sponsor was what it was all about and somehow the players and the chess seemed to come a long way second. (This refers to the juniors, not the open as I wasn't there for the open).

I am not opposed to chess being run for a profit and sponsorship is critical as well and I feel chess businesses have a very important role to play in developing chess, but somehow the balance was wrong in MB.

Trent Parker
12-02-2005, 12:40 AM
Anyhow back to Mt buller issues.....

How long will the CD Buller-tins take to get to me?

TTT

Garvinator
12-02-2005, 12:44 AM
TTT
dont have a clue, hence why i didnt answer.

adelandre
13-02-2005, 11:00 PM
As I've stated elsewhere, I gave the master CD to George over a month ago now and he only came to me last week saying it wouldn't work - I've handed him a new copy (which I've checked) and hope they will be out soon. I certainly didn't envisage it taking this long. I'm sorry there has been such a delay, but the bulletins were done shortly after the open ended. This certainly won't be canned as people have paid money for the CDs.

Cheers,
Andrew

Oepty
03-03-2005, 04:31 PM
According to my reading of the FIDE website the Austrlaian Open has not been submitted for FIDE rating on the next rating list. Is this wrong? If it is not wrong then why hasn't it been done?
Scott

jenni
04-03-2005, 09:06 AM
According to my reading of the FIDE website the Austrlaian Open has not been submitted for FIDE rating on the next rating list. Is this wrong? If it is not wrong then why hasn't it been done?
Scott
Gary Bekker sent out the ratings reports to competitors to check on 1 March. I would assume that they will be sent very soon, if not already sent.

Oepty
05-03-2005, 01:54 PM
Well they were supposed to be with FIDE by the 1st of March at the latest so I guess the Australian Open will not be rated until July if FIDE strictly follow their rules
Scott

Bill Gletsos
05-03-2005, 02:00 PM
Well they were supposed to be with FIDE by the 1st of March at the latest so I guess the Australian Open will not be rated until July if FIDE strictly follow their rules
ScottAccording to the FIDE web siet the folowing Australian events have ben submitted:
Victorian Champ.Reserves
AUS Open
AUS Junior Open
Respini A Division


It notes that the Aus Open and Juniors were received on 28/02/2005.

The Oceania Zonal, Oceania Women's Zonal and 112 NZL Championship have also been received by FIDE.

Rhubarb
05-03-2005, 02:06 PM
Well they were supposed to be with FIDE by the 1st of March at the latest so I guess the Australian Open will not be rated until July if FIDE strictly follow their rules
Scott
Scotty? Gazza's doing a sterling job every rating period. Gets it right every time ... and then there's FIDE's own downtime.

Oepty
05-03-2005, 03:04 PM
Yes I got it wrong, very wrong. I should have check the FIDE website again before my last post and I didn't. I apologise for the wrong information that I put forward in the previous post I made in this thread.
Scott Colliver

Oepty
05-03-2005, 03:05 PM
Scotty? Gazza's doing a sterling job every rating period. Gets it right every time ... and then there's FIDE's own downtime.

Greg, I don't really like being called Scotty although I probably deserved it this time after my appalling post.
Scott

Trent Parker
05-03-2005, 09:44 PM
Anyhow back to Mt buller issues.....

How long will the CD Buller-tins take to get to me?

George, George. where art thou, george? :uhoh: :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol:

skip to my lou
05-03-2005, 10:10 PM
Hi Karthick,

I have been busy concentrating on my work which I didnt do for three months.
I will check it out then also send you the pix i promised ages ago.

I have to earn money that means concentrating on work - I hope you
understand!

Regards
George Howard

I am yet to be reimbursed almost 2 months after the tournament has ended.

Trent Parker
05-03-2005, 10:37 PM
ahh huh, ok then..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :eek: :whistle:

Bas
06-03-2005, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by George Howard
Hi Karthick,

I have been busy concentrating on my work which I didnt do for three months.
I will check it out then also send you the pix i promised ages ago.

I have to earn money that means concentrating on work - I hope you
understand!

Regards
George Howard

I am yet to be reimbursed almost 2 months after the tournament has ended.

George Howards reply to karthick is pretty bad. Nearly two month after Mt Buller is finished, I am finding the type of excuse for not attending to the promised Buller-tins breathtaking.
He claims lack of time. Lack of time? To send pictures? To open the CD masterfile (see Adelandre in this thread)? To finalise the Buller-tins? Ahh, I see.. the latter does not only take his time, but it also will cost money. Who has to pay?

Garvinator
06-03-2005, 02:43 PM
Ahh, I see.. the latter does not only take his time, but it also will cost money. Who has to pay?
George does, you would assume it was out of the money collected for the bullertins. That was my understanding as to why the money was collected, to help pay for the bullertins to be sent out.

Rhubarb
08-03-2005, 07:06 AM
Greg, I don't really like being called ScottyNo prob, Bob.

Duff McKagan
07-04-2005, 03:15 PM
When are we going to see the balance sheet for Mt Buller? Has the previous ACF president, George Howard made an extra-ordinarily healthy profit out of us? I have heard some extraordinary figures. If something unhealthy has occured would the police need to know? :hmm:

Ian Rout
07-04-2005, 05:12 PM
As the body in question was an incorporated association won't its returns be filed with an SA government agency and be available for inspection?

skip to my lou
07-04-2005, 06:00 PM
Still don't have my money back, so I'm guessing you guys still don't have your CDs.

Don_Harrison
07-04-2005, 06:55 PM
Facinating.

Situation: Event finished over two months ago. Using a 28 day credit/debtor turnaround, cash at bank should be static. Money collected for CDs but none produced. STML been promised but has not received reimbursement despite repeated (?) requests.

Conclusion/Suspicion: You could well be whistling for your dosh and/or CDs. Been there done that ppls. Obviously, I hope that that is not the situation in this case but, even on principle, I'd be preparing a letter of demand just in case. Best of luck.

Spiny Norman
08-04-2005, 07:15 PM
Still don't have my money back, so I'm guessing you guys still don't have your CDs.

Skip, out with it mate ... what's the damage $$$-wise from your end?

PM me if you don't want to post publicly...

arosar
08-04-2005, 07:23 PM
Skip, out with it mate ... what's the damage $$$-wise from your end?

PM me if you don't want to post publicly...

If he charged market rate, it's probably at least a coupla thousand.

AR

Libby
08-04-2005, 07:30 PM
I am wondering how George proposes to discuss future Mt Buller sponsorships at the upcoming ACF meeting without being in a position to present a tidy report on the 2005 event.

Quite simply, the best advertisement for future Mt Buller events is a comprehensive, positive report on the 2005 event and a "chess public" muttering about unpaid "helpers" and undelivered CDs isn't what I would be looking for if I wanted to present a credible face to Australian players.

It's also hard to know how any kind of accounting (in the financial sense) can be remotely close to completion if these matters remain outstanding without any kind of communication or explanation for the delay.

skip to my lou
08-04-2005, 08:38 PM
If he charged market rate, it's probably at least a coupla thousand.

AR

No, I was paid for my work, it's just that I was not reimbursed for some money I spent on the design, which I did not do. I originally included the design cost, but George wanted the whole thing changed, so it cost extra, which he agreed to pay.

skip to my lou
18-06-2005, 12:44 AM
George??

George??

George Coward??

Where are you hiding?

Bereaved
18-06-2005, 01:01 AM
Georgie Porgie, you wouldn't lie,
took us to Buller and now we cry!
All of us came out to play!
Georgie, Porgie, don't run away!

( on the advice of legal council, names have been changed to highlight the guilty!!)

PS Where are our CD's Choo Choo?

Mischa
18-06-2005, 01:03 AM
sooo funny you two

Bereaved
18-06-2005, 01:13 AM
The funniest part about this whole issue is the matter of fact way that Georgie Porgie simply tells STML that he can't deliver the things he has promised and been paid for because he is too busy making money...a bit like consoling someone with one broken leg that at least they didn't break the other one.
To which I say" Come back here you Coward, I'll bite your ankles off - Full credits to Monty

Garvinator
18-06-2005, 01:23 AM
Has the full financial budget been delivered to the acf yet?

Bereaved
18-06-2005, 01:41 AM
To the tune of "Heaven knows I'm miserable now" by the Smiths

I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour,
But Heaven knows I'm miserable now,
I was looking for a comp,
and then I found a comp,
And Heaven knows I'm miserable now,

In my life,
I've never had such a time,
getting a CD,
From such a swine

Four months in time have passed me by,
and Heaven knows I'm miserable now,
I was looking for a comp,
and then I found a comp,
and Heaven knows I'm miserable now,

In my life,
I've never had such a time,
getting a CD,
From such a swine

Coda

What George said to STML,
at the end of the day,
Karthick would have wept,
I'll get around to it sometime soon,
and STML,naturally bled,

In my Life,
Why do I waste valuable time,
on people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?

C'mon Boy George, send us your CD, or are we not just singing the same song, because I thought that was your pitch, or is this just an off note, or the end of a career, where the top of the pops just pops?

And remember George, once you pop, you can't stop,

PPS, When the single is being released in a couple of weeks, be sure it is stocked by Sanity

All our very best, your Loyal Fan
Macavity

Paul S
18-06-2005, 05:50 AM
It doesn't look good for Australian chess if George Howard can behave in this unacceptable way and yet at the same time be a Vice President of the ACF!!! :rolleyes: :naughty:

By the way, has George provided a financial report yet to the ACF on the Mt Buller Australian Open? :hmm:

auriga
18-06-2005, 09:27 AM
It doesn't look good for Australian chess if George Howard can behave in this unacceptable way and yet at the same time be a Vice President of the ACF!!! :rolleyes: :naughty:

By the way, has George provided a financial report yet to the ACF on the Mt Buller Australian Open? :hmm:

heres my suggestion going forward.
i would say some (most?!) of the worth of the buller cd is lost now.
it's 6 months past the event and it's newsworthyness has past
those who are collectors and like the nostalgia or historical record would still want a cd.
however, it looks unlikely to ever be compiled and sent (by the mount buller organisers or those able to do it).
so, i would suggest the following (assuming the cd issue hasn't been resolved)

1. ask gh to kindly (quietly) resign his current chess positions at the next opportunity.
2. if the list of cd customers are not known,
appeal to the chess public via the newsletter for those people who purchased the buller cd
3. write a return letter to those people explaining the unfortunate circumstances and failure to produce the cd
see if they can offer a negotiated discount on future event bulletins (eg. brisbane 2006?!)
4. write off the issue and move on.

assuming the steps above would cost less than $200 or so it would be worth it from chess funds
to clear the tarnished name of australian chess organisers.

jenni
18-06-2005, 11:39 AM
and what about the $4,000 promised to the Junior Development fund? This was not to come out of profits but was part of prize money for the Aus Juniors. The prize-money on offer for the juniors was ludicrous and at the ACF meeting where George's proposal was accepted, after Libby and I had had all our concerns brushed off, I suggested that the prize-money be reduced and instead the money would go to a junior development fund. This was agreed. The $4,000 is thus not something to come out of profits but a mandatory expense.

Trent Parker
18-06-2005, 12:08 PM
heres my suggestion going forward.
i would say some (most?!) of the worth of the buller cd is lost now.
it's 6 months past the event and it's newsworthyness has past
those who are collectors and like the nostalgia or historical record would still want a cd.
however, it looks unlikely to ever be compiled and sent (by the mount buller organisers or those able to do it).
so, i would suggest the following (assuming the cd issue hasn't been resolved)

1. ask gh to kindly (quietly) resign his current chess positions at the next opportunity.
2. if the list of cd customers are not known,
appeal to the chess public via the newsletter for those people who purchased the buller cd
3. write a return letter to those people explaining the unfortunate circumstances and failure to produce the cd
see if they can offer a negotiated discount on future event bulletins (eg. brisbane 2006?!)
4. write off the issue and move on.

assuming the steps above would cost less than $200 or so it would be worth it from chess funds
to clear the tarnished name of australian chess organisers.

I want my bulletin! I do not care if it is in paper form or CD form. I want my bulletin!!

Where are the saint brothers when you need 'em?

Garvinator
18-06-2005, 12:19 PM
People payed their $12 for each cd.

jenni
18-06-2005, 12:49 PM
see if they can offer a negotiated discount on future event bulletins (eg. brisbane 2006?!)


This would work for adults but not for parents. Bulletins at Juniors have been free - maybe they won't be in Brisbane of course?

Quite a few parents (including myself) got sucked into paying $12. The CD's were billed as having the games. At the time I put my name down I thought this might be a good way of getting games, as very few games were being typed up and the stuff on the internet were many rounds behind. I actually have the free paper bulletins that were produced by the hard working Mr Saint - what I want is the whizz bang CD that was promised or my money back.......

skip to my lou
18-06-2005, 01:38 PM
People payed their $12 for each cd.

And roughly how many people ordered CDs?

Careth
18-06-2005, 02:01 PM
I think 1 team mate of mine got his dad to get him one- that he hasnt recieved:( Think he was the only one from the WA team.

Garvinator
18-06-2005, 02:34 PM
And roughly how many people ordered CDs?
50 wouldnt be too bad of a guess, but I am not sure. I do remember seeing quite a few names on a list that George had out to collect names and payment.

Also there was a massive argument when Alex Saint and myself attempted to give pgn's to Michael Lip during the juniors(this story has already been mentioned before) but is relevant here. One of George's justifications was that there would be a cd out afterwards and to get everything, sign up and pay up.

Oepty
18-06-2005, 02:55 PM
As far as I know George Howards only roles in chess at the moment are being a coach of a school and organising Norwood Chess Clubs teams in the SACA Interclub competition. He is listed as being a member of the SACA council but as far as I know he has no real involvement there and is really only on the council because he was the preivous president. The same reason I think he is on the ACF Council. Is he in anyway active in this role?
Scott

Bereaved
18-06-2005, 03:16 PM
I guess that I want mine as without it it irks me to have only 9 of the 11 rounds, and the many photos to be included was a nice bonus. But consider that the name before mine on the list to receive the bulletin was GM Hecht, who is undoubtedly still active within Europe, and inactive in receiving his own CD. One wonders what a tale told by him to European players of Australian's and their tournaments, what to expect, what promises they fail to fulfill....

It is certainly bad when the home audience is left in the lurch, but negative publicity overseas is much harder to guage or counter.

Why is it such a difficulty to produce some CD's?

Does anyone have a list other than George of the people who have ordered?

All the best, Macavity

Garvinator
18-06-2005, 03:57 PM
round 10 and 11 pgn's from the open attached. Unfortunately I only have the dgt board pgn's for round 11.

Libby
18-06-2005, 04:20 PM
And roughly how many people ordered CDs?

I understand multiple A4 pages of orders were taken.

Let's say 20 people per page @ $12

1x page = 20 people and $240 collected

2x pages = 40 people and $480 collected

5x pages = 100 people and $1200 ...

I'd hazard a guess that, even if CDs were supplied, there was a reasonable profit to be made on this exercise - a much better profit if they are not supplied. This money was collected completely separate to the funding of Mt Buller itself.

I'll agree that the urgency has gone out of the Buller-tin balloon but it shouldn't be trivialised as a small amount of money - at least until we know how many were actually ordered. Could the list of orders have been misplaced? :rolleyes: Perhaps with the ACT digital clock that was never returned :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Perhaps with the $4000 junior development fund which both Jenni & I have pointed out was never contingent upon the profitability of Mt Buller or otherwise? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Perhaps with the audited accounts of Mt Buller Inc which would show any profit/loss from the event and any portion of the profit due to be paid to the ACF? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hopefully there is some action behind-the-scenes happening to resolve all of this. I thought the information vacuum around Mt Buller in the lead up was their biggest problem and it seems to have just continued after the event. In both cases, sensible and open communication could have made a world of difference. Instead, in both cases, non-communication just leads to speculation and the outcomes aren't flattering to the parties concerned or to the Australian chess scene.

Bereaved
18-06-2005, 05:10 PM
In addition, but as quite a wide digression, one would have thought that prior to the day when Round 11 was played, given Elena's great chance of an outright first, that the organiser would have thought to have a nice bouquet to present her with at the ceremony, perhaps presented by Shannon Oliver or Sally Yu, two of the promising Women australian's in the tournament. As it is, the idea seemed to be for Elena to place the Trophy on her head for the photographs?! What great forethought!

On a nicer note, while the preparations for the prize giving were going on, I saw Shannon Oliver walk over to congratulate Elena, telling her how nice it was to see a woman win the tournament for a change. Elena's smile was very warm, and to me it was a really ( if not the most) beautiful moment of the tournament. Definitely deserving of Kodak and kleenex's attention.

I don't know if that was captured on film, but if so, that at least would be the one image Austalian chess can not do without,

Pull your finger out George, we have waited long enough,

Macavity VP

auriga
18-06-2005, 05:43 PM
if the amount owing is totaling $5000 or more
maybe one of the creditors should compile a list of all creditors
and engage a debt collection agency (eg. baycorp)?!

arosar
18-06-2005, 06:43 PM
Where I come from, when someone doesn't deliver like this, there are various methods to use. The ACF should consider this kind of policy.

AR

Garvinator
18-06-2005, 08:54 PM
i just spent a few minutes trying to find the right thread, but couldnt. Anyways, how different does mt buller look now compared to when we were there in summer

http://ski.mtbuller.com.au/snowcams/bourke.html

STML, can you add html files to the ones that can be uploaded please?

Denis_Jessop
18-06-2005, 09:02 PM
It is fortuitous that this debate should break out today as I was (and am) intending this weekend to try to sort out a means whereby the CDs could be produced and sent to those who paid for them. Although the provision of the CDs was not part of the original Mt Buller bid, I and at least some other of the ACF Councillors believe that the ACF should try to resolve the matter. We did have George's promises to produce the CDs within a couple of weeks of the last ACF Council meeting on 11 April and to produce a financial report by 31 May. Neither of those events occurred. A little while ago I e-mailed ACF Councillors with some options for action on both aspects and have had discussions with some Councillors.

Although it may seem attractive to some to take some kind of legal action, my view is that this would only be costly and counter-productive. Likewise, I believe that at present posting appeals or the like to George on the BB is no use as he has told me he doesn't read it any more.

One option that I am to pursue is for the ACF Council to obtain the material that was to go on the CD, which I hope is otherwise available, and to produce copies for those who paid for them. I do believe, however, that the only list of those who paid is the A4 pad on which people (including me) wrote their names and addresses when they paid George. Whether that list can be obtained, or still exists is yet to be ascertained. But even if it does not, there are ways around the problem, I think.

On another point, some while ago there in a posting by Freddy, he said that he thought George is an ACF VP because he was previously ACF President. That is not my understanding - George was elected at the National Conference unopposed so there was no reason given why he or Kerry Stead - the other VP stood. Under the ACF Constitution, George would have been a non-voting memeber of the Council as Immediate Past President for the following 12 months. I believe he stood as VP because of his then intention to run a Mt Buller 2007 but I am not sure of his intentions in that regard now.

If I am not successful in resolving the CDs question, which I regard as the more important of the two matters because of its nature, I mention that the next ACF Council meeting is fixed for 18 July and the matter will be further considered then.

The matter of the $4000 Junior development fund needs also to be resolved. The minutes of the relevant ACF Council meeting do not mention that figure but it is in the notes I made of the meeting as ACTCA delegate and, in any event, George put a posting on the BB next day confirming the arrangement which arose from his having reduced the junior prizes. What I am not clear about is whether the $4000 was to come form George or from the Mt Buller management. This matter was raised at the meeting at which the bid from George was accepted so at that stage he did not have the money from MtBuller for the event.

DJ

PS Incidentally there seem to be two threads on this matter - this one and the MtBuller Bulletins thread in the Tournament news etc section. Perhaps the threads should be combined.

antichrist
18-06-2005, 10:57 PM
Don't worry, that is not nearly as bad as nodding off at a meeting or attending a meeting of the NSWCA council.

skip to my lou
18-06-2005, 11:02 PM
STML, can you add html files to the ones that can be uploaded please?

Err, why?

shaun
18-06-2005, 11:06 PM
Denis, what is the mechanism for removing ACF Office Bearers? Can it simply be done at a council meeting with a simple motion of no-confidence, or are there more complicated steps required (email vote from the states etc)?
Removing George from his ACF positions is something that the ACF needs to seriously consider, as a way of demonstrating the ACF's attitude towards incompetence, if not deliberate misrepresentation, by an ACF office bearer.

Garvinator
18-06-2005, 11:39 PM
Err, why?
i just wanted to upload the pic from the snow at mt buller. I dont know how else to do it from a webpage. I see others doing it, but i am not sure how to do it any other way?

skip to my lou
18-06-2005, 11:52 PM
Save the image to your computer and then attach it to your post.

Brian_Jones
19-06-2005, 10:18 AM
In addition, but as quite a wide digression, one would have thought that prior to the day when Round 11 was played, given Elena's great chance of an outright first, that the organiser would have thought to have a nice bouquet to present her with at the ceremony, perhaps presented by Shannon Oliver or Sally Yu, two of the promising Women australian's in the tournament. As it is, the idea seemed to be for Elena to place the Trophy on her head for the photographs?! What great forethought!

On a nicer note, while the preparations for the prize giving were going on, I saw Shannon Oliver walk over to congratulate Elena, telling her how nice it was to see a woman win the tournament for a change. Elena's smile was very warm, and to me it was a really ( if not the most) beautiful moment of the tournament. Definitely deserving of Kodak and kleenex's attention.

I don't know if that was captured on film, but if so, that at least would be the one image Austalian chess can not do without,

Pull your finger out George, we have waited long enough,

Macavity VP

I took a couple of photos of Elena and others whilst waiting for the Closing Ceremony at Mt Buller. I then positioned myself infront of where I was told the Ceremony would take place and waited. After half an hour delay, the ceremony started in front of the kitchen (wonderful backdrop) so I moved to get better photos. Then the presenters moved again and I got fed up. I had already waited over half an hour so went for dinner and boycotted the Closing Ceremony!

PS I wanted the CD for my Australian Chess magazine report on Mt Buller. But it's a bit late now for that!

Denis_Jessop
19-06-2005, 11:42 AM
Denis, what is the mechanism for removing ACF Office Bearers? Can it simply be done at a council meeting with a simple motion of no-confidence, or are there more complicated steps required (email vote from the states etc)?
Removing George from his ACF positions is something that the ACF needs to seriously consider, as a way of demonstrating the ACF's attitude towards incompetence, if not deliberate misrepresentation, by an ACF office bearer.

Hi Shaun

Removal of an Executive member or an office-bearer requires a special motion to be put to the Council - see cl.6 of the ACF Constitution. Voting on that motion must be in writing (which now includes e-mail) and the number of votes that may be cast by State Associations is the same as the total votes of their representatives at a National Conference ie NSW 7, Vic 5, Qld 4, SA and WA 2, Tas and ACT 1. It seems to me that the Executive members don't have a vote on a special motion as cl.5c of the Constitution says that the Council functions as "the recorder of the wishes of State Associations in special motions as defined in Clause 6a".

Also the Council would need to observe the rules of procedural fairness by giving the person concerned notice of what was alleged against them and an opportunity to present their case in reply before the motion was put. Were it not to do so the decision could be challenged in Court.

Removing George from office is an option that the Council will consider.

Denis

Oepty
19-06-2005, 05:10 PM
Hello Dennis. I wasn't sure so thank you for the clarification. You did not though answer my question as to whether he is active in anyway in his role as an ACF vice-president. Has he done anything for the ACF since he ceased being ACF President, not including anything to do with Mt Buller? Does he even still wish to be an ACF vice-president if his goal of being on the ACF council was to run a 2007 MT Buller? He might be happy to just resign if asked.
Scott

antichrist
19-06-2005, 05:38 PM
You have not checked that he is still not asleep at your last meeting venue?

shaun
19-06-2005, 05:50 PM
Hello Dennis. I wasn't sure so thank you for the clarification. You did not though answer my question as to whether he is active in anyway in his role as an ACF vice-president. Has he done anything for the ACF since he ceased being ACF President, not including anything to do with Mt Buller? Does he even still wish to be an ACF vice-president if his goal of being on the ACF council was to run a 2007 MT Buller? He might be happy to just resign if asked.
Scott

At the ACF council meeting at Mt Buller he was very keen to have an official position on the council and there was plenty of mutterings between George and Garvin as others (including myself) questioned the wisdom of this. Indeed so keen was George that he suggested that a new position be created, which he would fill, to handle sponsorship and fundraising on behalf of the ACF. It had to be pointed to him that such a position already existed and was already filled by someone else.
Of course 5 months is a long time in politics (or the bulletin delivery service) and indeed George may wish to chuck it in. But if anyone did ask him, would they get a reply?

Libby
19-06-2005, 06:06 PM
I find it extraordinary that anyone wants to look this bad in front of a group of people with whom (one assumes) he wishes to continue to have dealings?

I also find myself wanting to tell people to get stuffed on occasion, but a bit of pride prevents me actually failing to deliver what I promise.

arosar
19-06-2005, 07:31 PM
This is just a complete and utter disgrace! The ACF must do everything in its power to cleanse the Aussie community of this shameful episode. First, we must give Mt Buller its proper burial rights which should hopefully rest any further ghostly visitations. Second, sack this fella in SA, strip him of office, and everybody whose dough was taken should write in to the ACF newsletter to shame this fella into action.

AR

Denis_Jessop
19-06-2005, 08:48 PM
Hello Dennis. I wasn't sure so thank you for the clarification. You did not though answer my question as to whether he is active in anyway in his role as an ACF vice-president. Has he done anything for the ACF since he ceased being ACF President, not including anything to do with Mt Buller? Does he even still wish to be an ACF vice-president if his goal of being on the ACF council was to run a 2007 MT Buller? He might be happy to just resign if asked.
Scott

Hello Scott

The VP's positions (two of them) were set up a couple of years ago to give assistance to the President as required. It was a sort of compromise following the defeat of the Commission proposal. There has not been anything specific for George to do as VP since he was elected other than possibly to arrange a bid for a MtBuller 2007. If the 2007 idea doesn't go ahead - and George has been ambivalent about this - he may well be prepared to step down as VP, though that is speculation on my part not based on anything he has told me. Since my last posting I have tried to ring George but he was out and I am waiting for a call back :hmm: . My idea is to try to resolve the matter without too much acrimony as I don't see acrimony as helpful for chess administration generally but the matter must also be resolved, especially the CDs and the junior chess fund, so we'll see what can be done in the next couple of days one way or the other.

Denis

pax
19-06-2005, 08:52 PM
Regarding the CDs, one option may be to obtain the original material (from the Saints I presume), and place it online and freely available. George might then be instructed to send refunds to those who paid for CDs.

Denis_Jessop
19-06-2005, 08:55 PM
You have not checked that he is still not asleep at your last meeting venue?

As it happens - yes, I have. Our last meeting was a phone hook-up and George was at home. I tried to ring him at home today but he was out. :D :rolleyes: :wall: :hmm:

DJ

Denis_Jessop
19-06-2005, 09:05 PM
Regarding the CDs, one option may be to obtain the original material (from the Saints I presume), and place it online and freely available. George might then be instructed to send refunds to those who paid for CDs.

That is an option; but I prefer the same course with the ACF preparing and sending the CDs to those who paid for them. I think this would be a cleaner finish as making refunds is a messy process and may well not work either. Also publicly releasing the material before refunds were made may justifiably antagonise those who paid for them. When I get to speak to George (or in some other way) I shall explore these options - indeed that was my main aim in trying to speak to him today.

DJ

antichrist
19-06-2005, 09:41 PM
As it happens - yes, I have. Our last meeting was a phone hook-up and George was at home. I tried to ring him at home today but he was out. :D :rolleyes: :wall: :hmm:

DJ

To you and many others not mentioned I say "Thanks for the laugh" that often come about. Esp those nodding off stories - put them in the bulletin.

pax
19-06-2005, 11:02 PM
That is an option; but I prefer the same course with the ACF preparing and sending the CDs to those who paid for them. I think this would be a cleaner finish as making refunds is a messy process and may well not work either. Also publicly releasing the material before refunds were made may justifiably antagonise those who paid for them. When I get to speak to George (or in some other way) I shall explore these options - indeed that was my main aim in trying to speak to him today.

DJ

If this happens, I assume that the ACF will demand from GH the money that was paid for the CDs?

Denis_Jessop
20-06-2005, 12:50 PM
With reference to various postings I made yesterday, I spoke to George this morning with particular reference to the CDs. He said that he will try to send them out this week (I believe he wants to do this) but, if he is unable to do so, he will post me all the relevant information next Monday and I shall arrange for their distribution.

DJ

Trent Parker
20-06-2005, 12:55 PM
I've gotten to the point where i'm taking the "I'll believe it when i see it" attitude....

antichrist
20-06-2005, 03:17 PM
I've gotten to the point where i'm taking the "I'll believe it when i see it" attitude....

Well you can't believe in JC returning aye?

Trent Parker
20-06-2005, 03:34 PM
a/c i shall ignore that off topic remark....

Libby
20-06-2005, 04:08 PM
With reference to various postings I made yesterday, I spoke to George this morning with particular reference to the CDs. He said that he will try to send them out this week (I believe he wants to do this) but, if he is unable to do so, he will post me all the relevant information next Monday and I shall arrange for their distribution.

DJ

Was theire any progress on the $4000 junior fund? Because if there isn't, perhaps all the prizewinners should have their winnings boosted to reflect the money originally set aside for that?

After all, when Jenni & I argued for the transfer of money away from inappropriately high cash prizes for the kids and into junior development, it was never our intention it go somewhere else entirely :hmm:

jenni
20-06-2005, 04:13 PM
After all, when Jenni & I argued for the transfer of money away from inappropriately high cash prizes for the kids and into junior development, it was never our intention it go somewhere else entirely :hmm:
Exactly - I am starting to really regret suggesting the change......

Oepty
20-06-2005, 05:36 PM
Regarding the CDs, one option may be to obtain the original material (from the Saints I presume), and place it online and freely available. George might then be instructed to send refunds to those who paid for CDs.

I think contacting Andrew Saint, who would be the one to contact, should be a last resort. He has done his bit for Mt Buller and the bulletins and should not be forced to go back to it. George should be the one to fix things up.
Scott

Denis_Jessop
20-06-2005, 10:02 PM
I think contacting Andrew Saint, who would be the one to contact, should be a last resort. He has done his bit for Mt Buller and the bulletins and should not be forced to go back to it. George should be the one to fix things up.
Scott

Hi Scott

I had thought of contacting Andrew as he would have much of the information, though not the list of payers, but, on reflection, came to the same conclusion as you have. I then contacted George with the results posted earlier today.

DJ

Oepty
22-06-2005, 10:30 AM
I think there has been progress with the CD's. I understand that they are ready and some may have been delivered last night at interclub. George Howard was there, I did not talk to him, not my position to, but he seemed to give out a couple of CD's. I was also told that they are ready. It seems our presidents latest efforts have proved to be successful. Well done Denis.
Scott

Bereaved
25-06-2005, 04:41 AM
Hi Everybody! ( Hi Doctor Nick!)

If anyone could suggest when the rare ( by some considered extinct ) Wild White Buller CD's were to begin their easterly migration, I for one would be delighted to hear of it,

All the best, Take Care Macavity, VP

PS I hear that there was a sighting in South Australia...Can anyone personally report on our soon to be received CD's; ie what is on them? do we still get the colour printed set of bulletins as promised?
Thanks in advance..

auriga
27-06-2005, 11:18 AM
any sign of the cd yet?

Trent Parker
27-06-2005, 11:21 AM
any sign of the cd yet?

:whistle: :doh: :wall: :evil: :hmm: :lol:

Bereaved
02-07-2005, 01:43 AM
Wanted: Any news of the whereabouts of one George Howard, last seen at, or about the 21st of June at an interclub match in Adelaide. We believe that this man could help us with our inquiries into a series of missing CD's that have come to our attention. Any person who encounters this man should display extreme caution as he is likely to become agitated at the mention of the words Accor, Buller, Mount, Buller-S**T, or especially CD's or in fact any manner of speech peripherally in relation to the aforementioned words.

Anyone with any news on the whereabouts of this individual is asked to post the details here, in order that the aforementioned George Howard might be contacted by other persons in the Chess Administration

Thanking you for your time, and your cooperation.
God Bless, Macavity

ursogr8
02-07-2005, 01:51 PM
Wanted: Any news of the whereabouts of one George Howard, last seen at, or about the 21st of June at an interclub match in Adelaide. We believe that this man could help us with our inquiries into a series of missing CD's that have come to our attention. Any person who encounters this man should display extreme caution as he is likely to become agitated at the mention of the words Accor, Buller, Mount, Buller-S**T, or especially CD's or in fact any manner of speech peripherally in relation to the aforementioned words.

Anyone with any news on the whereabouts of this individual is asked to post the details here, in order that the aforementioned George Howard might be contacted by other persons in the Chess Administration

Thanking you for your time, and your cooperation.
God Bless, Macavity

hi Mac_have_a_tea

Speaking of other folks in chess administration... last night, I met the guy who wrote the cover note for the public liability insurance at Mt B.

After listening to his story, I told him to watch this space here and join the queue to get paid.

regards
starter

ursogr8
03-07-2005, 07:46 PM
1 The ACF authorises the GURU to hold the events at MT B and he is therefore the designated accountable officer.
2 The GURU's deal put to Mecure is resisted by them and so they try to go above the GURUs head to CV to get him disempowered.
3 CV simply return the ball to Mecure's forecourt on the basis that 'the GURU is our designated officer'.
4 Mecure still don't like the deal conditions and try to go above the GURU's head to the ACF.
5 The ACF blinks (in the negotiation standoff with Mecure) and loses confidence in the GURU's structured deal. The GURU is disempowered. A new accountable officer is empowered.
6 A new deal is struck, and the terms now acceptable to Mecure are not much different from those proposed by the GURU.

The challenge to the reader is to consider why the ACF blinked.


starter

Denis_Jessop
03-07-2005, 08:40 PM
1 The ACF authorises the GURU to hold the events at MT B and he is therefore the designated accountable officer.
2 The GURU's deal put to Mecure is resisted by them and so they try to go above the GURUs head to CV to get him disempowered.
3 CV simply return the ball to Mecure's forecourt on the basis that 'the GURU is our designated officer'.
4 Mecure still don't like the deal conditions and try to go above the GURU's head to the ACF.
5 The ACF blinks (in the negotiation standoff with Mecure) and loses confidence in the GURU's structured deal. The GURU is disempowered. A new accountable officer is empowered.
6 A new deal is struck, and the terms now acceptable to Mecure are not much different from those proposed by the GURU.

The challenge to the reader is to consider why the ACF blinked.





starter

This version of events is utter nonsense and bears no relation to the facts.

DJ

Bill Gletsos
03-07-2005, 08:53 PM
This version of events is utter nonsense and bears no relation to the facts.Agreed.

Bill Gletsos
03-07-2005, 08:56 PM
1 The ACF authorises the GURU to hold the events at MT B and he is therefore the designated accountable officer.Incorrect. The ACF awarded the running of the events at Mt. Buller to CV. CV entered into an agreement with the Guru to run the events at Mt. Buller.

2 The GURU's deal put to Mecure is resisted by them and so they try to go above the GURUs head to CV to get him disempowered.Actually the Chess Victoria Organising Committee was formed to run the events at Mt. Buller. The Guru was just the main organiser. As to whether it was the Guru or Mercure who wanted to change previously agreed upon items is unclear as the claims by both sides contradict each other.

3 CV simply return the ball to Mecure's forecourt on the basis that 'the GURU is our designated officer'.This doesnt appear to be the case. As noted in his letter announcing his plans to change venues the Guru stated that "Chess Victoria has chosen to reject the offer that the Mt Buller Chalet had on the table and pursue alternative arrangements rather than continue the negotiation process".

4 Mecure still don't like the deal conditions and try to go above the GURU's head to the ACF.Incorrect. The GURU and CV walked away from the Mt. Buller deal and informed the ACF they planned to run the events in Victoria at completely different venues.

5 The ACF blinks (in the negotiation standoff with Mecure) and loses confidence in the GURU's structured deal. The GURU is disempowered. A new accountable officer is empowered.There was no negotiation stand off. CV had walked away from Mt. Buller. The ACF Council took the view that they had awarded the event to CV on the understanding it would be held at Mt. Buller, not on the basis that it would be held in Vicctoria at a time and place to be determined. As such the ACF decided to perservere with Mt. Buller if somone was prepared to take over the oganising of it. George Howard decided to take over organising the event and the ACF accepted his offer.

6 A new deal is struck, and the terms now acceptable to Mecure are not much different from those proposed by the GURU.Mercure made it clear they wanted nothing more to do with the Guru.


The challenge to the reader is to consider why the ACF blinked.The real challenge to the reader is to why you are trying to rewrite history.

arosar
03-07-2005, 09:03 PM
The Guru is his mate.

AR

jase
03-07-2005, 09:51 PM
1 The ACF authorises the GURU to hold the events at MT B and he is therefore the designated accountable officer.
2 The GURU's deal put to Mecure is resisted by them and so they try to go above the GURUs head to CV to get him disempowered.
3 CV simply return the ball to Mecure's forecourt on the basis that 'the GURU is our designated officer'.
4 Mecure still don't like the deal conditions and try to go above the GURU's head to the ACF.
5 The ACF blinks (in the negotiation standoff with Mecure) and loses confidence in the GURU's structured deal. The GURU is disempowered. A new accountable officer is empowered.
6 A new deal is struck, and the terms now acceptable to Mecure are not much different from those proposed by the GURU.

The challenge to the reader is to consider why the ACF blinked.
starter

Quite an astounding post! No recent context, as best I can judge.
Starter you're often insightful yet here you pull from the dustbin issues that were thrashed to death on this site 6 months ago. Did you consult the relevant threads before throwing up this version (your word) of events?

It's so wildly at odds with even Guru's version that I'm struggling to understand your intent or rationale.

Paul S
03-07-2005, 10:50 PM
It seems to me that George Howard needs to be removed from his present position of ACF Vice President ASAP!

ursogr8
04-07-2005, 08:23 AM
1 The ACF authorises the GURU to hold the events at MT B and he is therefore the designated accountable officer.



Incorrect. The ACF awarded the running of the events at Mt. Buller to CV. CV entered into an agreement with the Guru to run the events at Mt. Buller.
OK. I was using shorthand to keep it brief. The ACF awards to CV who on-awards to the GURU. Net result remains > the GURU is the accountable officer.


2 The GURU's deal put to Mecure is resisted by them and so they try to go above the GURUs head to CV to get him disempowered.


Actually the Chess Victoria Organising Committee was formed to run the events at Mt. Buller. The Guru was just the main organiser.

I think you are agreeing that the monetary risk/reward sat with the GURU; thus CV was just the internal nominee. I will re-phrase your sentence > The GURU was the main organiser. (No need for the just).


As to whether it was the Guru or Mercure who wanted to change previously agreed upon items is unclear as the claims by both sides contradict each other.

As I said in the header of my first post; one or other of these versions is correct. You are not contradicting my post. The GURU made it clear that a late cost item (imposed/revealed by Mecure) caused the deal to fall over.



3 CV simply return the ball to Mecure's forecourt on the basis that 'the GURU is our designated officer'.



This doesnt appear to be the case. As noted in his letter announcing his plans to change venues the Guru stated that "Chess Victoria has chosen to reject the offer that the Mt Buller Chalet had on the table and pursue alternative arrangements rather than continue the negotiation process".
Incorrect. The GURU and CV walked away from the Mt. Buller deal and informed the ACF they planned to run the events in Victoria at completely different venues.
You are obviously unaware of the earlier escalation above the GURU's head to CV.

4 Mecure still don't like the deal conditions and try to go above the GURU's head to the ACF.

There was no negotiation stand off. CV had walked away from Mt. Buller.
A negotiation stand-off and a walk-away...are one and the same thing Bill.


5 The ACF blinks (in the negotiation standoff with Mecure) and loses confidence in the GURU's structured deal. The GURU is disempowered. A new accountable officer is empowered.


The ACF Council took the view that they had awarded the event to CV on the understanding it would be held at Mt. Buller, not on the basis that it would be held in Vicctoria at a time and place to be determined. As such the ACF decided to perservere with Mt. Buller if somone was prepared to take over the oganising of it. George Howard decided to take over organising the event and the ACF accepted his offer.

I think our two quotes are saying the same thing.


6 A new deal is struck, and the terms now acceptable to Mecure are not much different from those proposed by the GURU.


Mercure made it clear they wanted nothing more to do with the Guru.

Again we are not really at odds.



The challenge to the reader is to consider why the ACF blinked.

The real challenge to the reader is to why you are trying to rewrite history.

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
I notice you don't argue against the idea that the GURU's proposal was not much different from what was eventually the accepted proposal.


starter

ursogr8
04-07-2005, 08:28 AM
The Guru is his mate.

AR

Why don't you take the time to ask Lee?

starter

ursogr8
04-07-2005, 08:42 AM
Quite an astounding post! No recent context, as best I can judge.
Starter you're often insightful yet here you pull from the dustbin issues that were thrashed to death on this site 6 months ago. Did you consult the relevant threads before throwing up this version (your word) of events?


jase

Good observations of yours.


It's so wildly at odds with even Guru's version that I'm struggling to understand your intent or rationale.
(BTW, I hope you are note remembering the GURUs version through Bill's prism).

My intent? >>> Much of what was 'thrashed out' previously was on my (initiated) thread...Mt B. A repeatable process?.
Would we want to repeat (collective) negotiation lack of discipline again? Would we want to repeat authorising the same eventual privateer again? Would we want to be backed into a short time-frame for decision-making again?

starter

arosar
04-07-2005, 10:34 AM
Look, why don't we ask gray for his take on all of this? Let's start with that.

AR

Bill Gletsos
04-07-2005, 11:03 AM
OK. I was using shorthand to keep it brief. The ACF awards to CV who on-awards to the GURU. Net result remains > the GURU is the accountable officer.Wrong. The accountable body to the ACF was CV as it was CV that was awarded the events.

I think you are agreeing that the monetary risk/reward sat with the GURU; thus CV was just the internal nominee. I will re-phrase your sentence > The GURU was the main organiser. (No need for the just).The Guru claimed on the 12-01-2004 that "Kevin – arrangements are clad in the finest glistening iron. Sponsorship is guaranteed, venue is definite. Should anything happen I’ll sue their pants off."

If they were clad in iron back then, then there should not have been issues that arose in May/June etc.

As I said in the header of my first post; one or other of these versions is correct. You are not contradicting my post. The GURU made it clear that a late cost item (imposed/revealed by Mecure) caused the deal to fall over.Mercure and the Guru seem to disagree on this point.
Also as I noted above, the Guru claimed back in Jan 2004 that the arrangements were clad in iron. This was apparently no ordinary iron, it was glistening iron. Too bad it wasnt galvanised iron as it appears to have rusted considerably between Jan 2004 and June 2004.

You are obviously unaware of the earlier escalation above the GURU's head to CV.Do not make assumptions about which you know nothing. It was entirely reasonable for Mercure to correspond with the CV organising committee.

A negotiation stand-off and a walk-away...are one and the same thing Bill.No they arent. They are not even close.

I think our two quotes are saying the same thing.I dont think they are.

Again we are not really at odds.We are not in agreement.

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.Your post had nothing to do with attempting to learn from history but rather was just you attempting to rewrite history.

I notice you don't argue against the idea that the GURU's proposal was not much different from what was eventually the accepted proposal.I just couldnt be bothered wasting anymore time on replying to you as Denis Jessop summed your original post up perfectly when he said
This version of events is utter nonsense and bears no relation to the facts.

ursogr8
04-07-2005, 11:14 AM
<snip>
I just couldnt be bothered wasting anymore time on replying to you as Denis Jessop summed your original post up perfectly when he said

Nevertheless Bill....I appreciate the time taken to write your two posts even though we obviously do not see eye to eye on much of this issue.

regards
starter

Garvinator
04-07-2005, 01:27 PM
Look, why don't we ask gray for his take on all of this? Let's start with that.

AR
dont tell me that you might, i repeat might, actually believe a word i say amiel and might for more than a quarter of one second, listen to a word i say in any matter related to mt buller 1,2,3 maybe even 4 :eek: :rolleyes: . :lol: I do have an opinion on this, but as so much is murky and i think everyone has been trying to protect their own backsides and give their own spin, that my opinion would be just that, but I spoken to all sides and heard some of their opinions, so I do have a fair idea of the time lines etc.

But the real question is, do i want to go down this track again and have a repeat of the saga that led to a person being banned for issuing legal threats :doh:

arosar
04-07-2005, 02:58 PM
dont tell me that you might, i repeat might, actually believe a word i say amiel and might for more than a quarter of one second, listen to a word i say in any matter related to mt buller 1,2,3 maybe even 4 . . .

Listen here gray...let me tell you something mate. I'm Roman Catholic. Now that means I believe in miracles. And you know, miracles can and do happen.

One miracle I'm looking forward to is that those stupid CDs will finally turn up!

And, in the tradition of my faith, I reckon we need some sorta special ritual to finally lay these Buller ghosts to rest. Ten Hail Mary's should do it. All these visitations mate might be because we didn't really hold a proper wake.

AR

Garvinator
04-07-2005, 03:07 PM
One miracle I'm looking forward to is that those stupid CDs will finally turn up!
well i am more interested at the moment in how the financial report from buller is going :uhoh: . Not saying that I am not interested in the cd's, i am, but to me the financial report is of more importance.

jase
04-07-2005, 03:17 PM
Would we want to repeat (collective) negotiation lack of discipline again?
1. I'm not completely sure what you mean. Part of the problem seemed to me (and I exchanged correspondence with David early days; I was consulted and was a potential arbiter for the event) that David took an incredibly optimistic view of what could be achieved, and [deleted phrase - mod]. Under the current structure (ACF ---> State Association ---> Organising committee) I don't know how much we've learnt or can improve. We're still at the mercy of the organising committee. Perhaps greater accountability is the area which needs addressing. If an organising committee is compelled to provide ongoing documentation to the ACF or their State Association, perhaps this will provide greater transparency and a better negotiation process.

I'm really praying for a great event in Brisbane to restore some of the reputation of our National titles. I have a lot of faith in that event's organising committee.


Would we want to repeat authorising the same eventual privateer again?

I applaud George Howard for trying to pick up the pieces of the train wreck. It's a shame the event didn't achieve greater success. This CD fracas is a rather large black stain which might negate any prospect of George running a National title event in the future.

Regarding David Cordover, I lack intimate knowledge of his standing in the Melbourne/Victorian chess community. I'm curious as to how he's viewed, and whether his reputation is intact. As an outsider, my understanding is that it would be highly unlikely that he would be authorised to go within 100ft of an organising committee for an Australian Championships.

Perhaps some consider David to be a visionary. The evidence suggests to me that he's energetic, and has a lot of ideas to make himself a quid.


Would we want to be backed into a short time-frame for decision-making again?
A short time-frame is just the way it is sometimes with amatuer organisations. Sometimes you get lucky and outstanding organisers get together and create a great event, other times you have to take the scraps on offer. I've worked with Mercure before: they were a sponsor for the QVB Chess Festival in 1999. I'll be approaching their parent company later this year with a proposal, so I'm extremely disappointed that so many bridges seem to have been burnt with this organisation.

Garvinator
04-07-2005, 03:33 PM
A short time-frame is just the way it is sometimes with amatuer organisations. Sometimes you get lucky and outstanding organisers get together and create a great event, other times you have to take the scraps on offer. I've worked with Mercure before: they were a sponsor for the QVB Chess Festival in 1999. I'll be approaching their parent company later this year with a proposal, so I'm extremely disappointed that so many bridges seem to have been burnt with this organisation.
I dont know what the head people at accor and grollo think of all this saga from mt buller, but I suspect that you would find it hard to get anything from them. I could be wrong and I hope I am, but unfortunately one of the points that mercure were struggling with was that the acf couldnt do anything to 'punish', in their view, the guru. This would have been passed up the chain to the head honchos I imagine.

arosar
04-07-2005, 03:44 PM
I dont know what the head people at accor and grollo think of all this saga from mt buller, but I suspect that you would find it hard to get anything from them. I could be wrong and I hope I am, but unfortunately one of the points that mercure were struggling with was that the acf couldnt do anything to 'punish', in their view, the guru. This would have been passed up the chain to the head honchos I imagine.

That's a strange thing to say gray. Could you expand on your middle sentence?

AR

Libby
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
Perhaps greater accountability is the area which needs addressing. If an organising committee is compelled to provide ongoing documentation to the ACF or their State Association, perhaps this will provide greater transparency and a better negotiation process.


I am still struggling to understand why, particularly in this case, there is a lack of such accountability?

Isn't the ACF due a percentage of the profit? It's all very well to say that there was no profit (?) but surely someone has to be expected to produce - in a timely fashion - audited accounts which support that assertion? Or is my understanding wrong and there was not a deal for sharing of profits between the organisers and the ACF?

And please explain the wherabouts of the $4000 promised for Junior Development - or some account of why it has not, or cannot be paid?

It may not be the ACF's direct responsibility (?) but it is centred around an office-bearer, it involves our national championship and it can't reflect well on anybody until someone dots the i's and crosses the t's or bears some consequence for failing to do so.


I'm really praying for a great event in Brisbane to restore some of the reputation of our National titles. I have a lot of faith in that event's organising committee.


A short time-frame is just the way it is sometimes with amatuer organisations. Sometimes you get lucky and outstanding organisers get together and create a great event, other times you have to take the scraps on offer.

I'm also anticipating a great event in Brisbane. However, in one of my (sorry arosar ;) ) numerous rants on this subject, I made the point that so many problems come out of promising way more than you have the capacity, finances or personnel to offer - and then whining when you get picked up on it. Promise less, and realistically, meet those basic promises and try to deliver even more - and your constituency will generally applaud and acknowledge your efforts.

I don't like bids being awarded on the strength of outrageous levels of marketing puff.

GinoTHEstud
04-07-2005, 10:10 PM
cool

GinoTHEstud
04-07-2005, 10:11 PM
Mischa is gorgeous

GinoTHEstud
04-07-2005, 10:12 PM
Umm hmmmm just trying to make 10 posts in total.

Man being a kiwi im actully impressed with melbourne.

GinoTHEstud
04-07-2005, 10:12 PM
Man 5 more posts to go.

Australia owns.!!! Good work boys! wish the kiwi luck tomorrow

GinoTHEstud
04-07-2005, 10:13 PM
:P :) :mad: :eh: :wall:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GinoTHEstud
04-07-2005, 10:13 PM
Almost to ten.

Ahahha banglasdesh beat Aus in cricket. The odds were 600-01

ChessGuru
05-07-2005, 09:59 PM
This is the text of the "FINAL OFFER" from Buller - SIGNED June 25 by Roman. At this stage the ABOM was 'unavailable' or rather, available but at a cost of $28,000..... You tell me if you think it was wise to accept or reject such an offer? Particularly on the grounds of earlier offers they made, most notable the "requirement" to book certain number of rooms, which previously did NOT exist (stated as such) i can post these too if you like?

FINAL OFFER
Mercure Grand Chalet will provide:
•Use of all spaces and facilities at the Mercure Grand Chalet free of charge
•Accommodation at the Chalet at $90 per room per night including full breakfast. The Chess Federation is required to book 58 rooms per day for the duration of the event (26 nights minimum).
o This will allow the organising committee to on-sell rooms at $120-$130 per night and retain the difference.
•4 free hotel rooms at the Chalet for the duration of the events
•Free use of Heli House lodge (inclusive of cleaning)
•Use of other Lodge accommodation at $25 per bed per night
•Use of photocopy and internet facilities free of charge
•Free tea and coffee (urns only) for all participants at all events
•Pay $10,000 fee to Chess World on provision of monthly reports
•Hotel vouchers as prizes, to the value of $10,000 minimum.
•No additional hidden costs for any aspect of the events
•Printing of tournament program from Independent Distillers

And then tell me which of these things 'disappeared' from view when GH took over? And why would anyone (GH) choose to continue when I provided him with copies of all the previous offers and the "Final Offer" and then he saw yet ANOTHER offer on the table?

Kevin Bonham
06-07-2005, 12:28 AM
All other details were to remain the same, just the venue to change. This doesn't seem such a big deal, just a change of venue - to work out why all hell broke loose you have to look at the people involved and their motivations....

The people involved included everyone on Council who voted to keep the event at Mt Buller, and whatever can be said about George's motivations does not necessarily apply to the rest of us.

For my own part, whether I was right or wrong to do so (which I don't really want to get into - I just want to state my motives again for the record), I voted for the switch to Mt B II because:

(i) Such accounts as I could get of the breakdown between the intended organisers and Mt B did not convince me that the intended hosts had been dodgy enough to deserve the breach of faith that would have been involved in us pulling out of Mt Buller.

(ii) Nothing you had presented to Council convinced me that Mt B was not viable. Indeed, you told us that in your view the Mt Buller event could still be run successfully, but that you just thought the event would be more successful if run elsewhere.

ChessGuru
06-07-2005, 11:07 AM
>(i) Such accounts as I could get of the breakdown between the intended >organisers and Mt B did not convince me that the intended hosts had been

Who did you get the reports from? Not from me, not from Wastell, it seems like you didn't do any due diligence by going to the source! Accounts of the breakdown i presume came from GH (who had a vested interest in ...)?

>(ii) Nothing you had presented to Council convinced me that Mt B was not >viable. Indeed, you told us that in your view the Mt Buller event could still be

Was I at that council meeting? Was there a meeting? I don't think so...The decision was taken somewhat arbitrarily as far as i recall (GH just DECLARED a State of Emergency and assumed supreme executive power)...there certainly wasn't a council meeting and i didn't talk to anyone other than GH - nobody else was interested enough to ring me- I did say that I would support the ACF in any way I could if they chose to continue at Buller (of course i will support the ACF), and as it turned out the event WAS viable - as i said it would be, but only just, and certainly not "successful".

This happens all too often because the ACF is LAZY. There are no real due-diligences because the councillors will just vote for whatever is on the table. If someone goes to the effort of producing a motion then invariably it will be voted for, without thought, just to have something to do!

GH said "I can run it at Buller, it will be great". So everyone just said, "OK, at least i don't have to do anything, Vote FOR!" (Although i don't even think that there was a vote at all - i am pretty sure it was just declared wasn't it?)

The same thing is happening now...everyone is sitting back waiting for GH to produce a financial report, 6 months later! Eventually it will be forgotten about, better to forget than to DO something active!

This is natural - the individuals who make up the ACF are all volunteers who have a primary commitment to their STATE and perhaps even CLUB. So with only a fixed number of hours in the day they never quite get round to doing any ACF work....no fault of the people, fault of the system.

pax
06-07-2005, 11:33 AM
In the light of this:



I do now, as I did then, offer anyone else the opportunity of taking up the offer at Mt Buller. As you can see it isn't something that has collapsed, but I am making a decision not to be involved....it could well still end up at Mt Buller and I wish anyone who chooses to go down that path the best of luck!

it seems a little disingenuous to be critical of the actions of GH in simply taking up your offer.

Kevin Bonham
07-07-2005, 03:06 AM
David, I really didn't want to get into this again at all but your post is so belligerently presumptive and unfactual that I see no alternative but to disabuse you in the faint hope that you will learn not to post this kind of drivel again. You are very tiresome to deal with publicly on issues like this because you do a lot of good work in many areas of chess, but you seem unable to avoid jumping to conclusions and talking nonsense and conspiracy theories whenever you have to debate anything involving a body you dislike.

It is also a remarkable irony that you made legal threats against this site but seem quite happy to say things about Roman (who is not here to defend himself) that are currently giving the moderators a bit of a legal headache.


Who did you get the reports from? Not from me, not from Wastell, it seems like you didn't do any due diligence by going to the source!

You seem to have forgotten that there was a Council meeting where you were present (see below) and had every opportunity to present your version of events. Indeed I personally asked you some questions about the breakdown at this meeting (and it is indeed minuted that Council members asked you questions). Your answers were remarkably uninformative even when I followed them up with further questions, and it was precisely your failure to provide sufficient evidence to Council to justify the switch of venue that caused me to go with Mt B II. As I entered the meeting I had not made up my mind.


Accounts of the breakdown i presume came from GH (who had a vested interest in ...)?

You do indeed presume. What I knew of the breakdown did not largely come from George Howard. I had my most useful insights into it from another informed source (who I will not be naming) with no vested interest that I know of in Mt B II, as well as what very limited information I could get from you at the meeting.


Was I at that council meeting? Was there a meeting? I don't think so...

The decision was taken somewhat arbitrarily as far as i recall (GH just DECLARED a State of Emergency and assumed supreme executive power)...there certainly wasn't a council meeting and i didn't talk to anyone other than GH - nobody else was interested enough to ring me

The above is absolute garbage and you owe me an apology for wasting my time needed to refute it, plus a personal commitment to try much harder not to disagree with me in future without making a proper attempt to check your facts. I'm very serious about this David - I'm sick of the rubbish, I am trying to look more at the good side in what you do in chess (which is considerable) but having my time wasted hosing down absolute unfactual junk like this tries my patience and makes it extremely difficult. I'm just very glad I was legally obliged (because of having recently earned some small sum coaching juniors and hence being technically in competition with you) to abstein from all decisions concerning your activities at the recent TCA meeting.

The meeting I refer to is the meeting of the ACF Council of 12 July 2004.

The minutes show that you were indeed present.

Formal bids for the events reopened for bidding were submitted by yourself for CV, as well as by GH and the ACTJCL (the latter only for the Schools).

As it became clear that Council supported Mt B II a vote was taken and Mt B II was approved 7-1 with three abstentions. The 1, of course, was you. It was this vote that gave effect to Council's decision to retain Mt Buller as the venue and reject your attempt to switch.


If someone goes to the effort of producing a motion then invariably it will be voted for, without thought, just to have something to do!

Absolute drivel and I'd like to think you know it. Actually I put considerable thought into this decision and many other ACF decisions. You may not agree with those thoughts but to suggest that I or anyone else votes thoughtlessly is stupid and bordering on defamatory. I request that you retract the above sentence as it reflects negatively upon me in a way that is clearly incorrect. It doubtless also reflects unfairly on the other councillors. I have explained my reasoning above and I take personal offence at you suggesting my reasoning was otherwise but producing no evidence to back this.

*sigh*

ChessGuru
07-07-2005, 04:23 PM
Kevin,

You say there was a council meeting where i was able to put my case? Was that the one of July 12? I was there....ok, good. I do apologise for not recalling that...

Now - this was in the ACF BULLETIN on June 30!! 12 days before i had a chance to put my case as you say...

"Australian Open, Junior, Schools Teams changes: Plans to hold the Australian Open, Australian Junior and the Australian Schools Teams Championship at Mt Buller in Victoria have been cancelled because of financial disagreements. The ACF Executive is meeting this Thursday evening and a full Council meeting is scheduled on July 12th.

ACF President George Howard said: "On Friday morning, after the Executive meeting, I will post more information - but anything definitive cannot be assumed until after the Council Meeting on 12 July.

"The three tournaments will be held. The dates, etc, may be changed but they certainly will not be at Mt Buller. Chess Victoria will make a submission that will be addressed at these meetings."

So as you can see - GH did take an EXECUTIVE DECISION to say "these events will certainly not be at Mt Buller" ... between then and July 12 he of course had time to visit Buller with Roman and change his tune...

I really had no chance to say anything... Do you even realise that this was made public BEFORE the ACF had even been formally notified by me? The CV meeting made their decision to request a change of venue on June 27, then June 30 there was an ACF broadcast to the effect that they were NOT ON.

So please Kevin, don't accuse me of having the facts wrong - i think you might also check when the ACF announced HERE on the BB that Buller was OFF the table. I think, but am not sure, that it was even earlier.

When formal bidding "reopened" who made the decision that CV no longer held a valid bid???

Finally i cannot believe that any informed decision that you took had input from any member of the CV executive. I don't know who else you might have spoken to, but i would imagine that the organising committee of the event just "cancelled" would have been the people to talk to....and i just can't believe that any of them would have said, go back to Buller it will be fantastic...

Kevin, i am sorry if you don't feel that ACF, CV etc pass motions just because they are there, but that has been my experience. When i was on CV if i ever wanted something to happen i'd just have to draft a motion and put it on the table...invariably it would be passed just for the sake of passing something. If i thought it was really contensions then i'd put 2 motions on the table and let them fight over which one to choose!

Bill Gletsos
07-07-2005, 04:57 PM
1) starter announced/implied the buller bid had fallen thru here on the BB on June 26th 2004. See post http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=19521&postcount=146
2) CV had a meeting on 27th June.
3) CV President and ACF Deputy President informs a number of ACF officials bewteen 27th and June 30th.
4) GH announces in bulletin on June 30th that events will be going ahead just not at Mt. Buller. This is obviously based on information obtained from CV.
5) The Guru posts his letter to the ACF with regards Mt. Buller and the events on the BB on the evening of June 30th. http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=905&page=1
6) The ACF Executive meeting on July 1st authorises the president to re-open the bidding for the events. http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=914&page=1
7) The ACF Council meeting on July 12th votes to keep the events at Mt. Buller woith GH as the new organiser.

Kevin Bonham
07-07-2005, 05:40 PM
Kevin,

You say there was a council meeting where i was able to put my case? Was that the one of July 12? I was there....ok, good. I do apologise for not recalling that...

Now - this was in the ACF BULLETIN on June 30!! 12 days before i had a chance to put my case as you say...

You forget that what I was addressing here was actually the following comment by you:


All other details were to remain the same, just the venue to change. This doesn't seem such a big deal, just a change of venue - to work out why all hell broke loose you have to look at the people involved and their motivations....

...and it was the decision to reject your plan to change venue that was rejected at the meeting of 12 July, so the stuff in the Bulletin of June 30 and all the stuff you are raising now is completely irrelevant to the discussion of your quote above. At 12 July the option of allowing you to change venue was still completely intact. Whatever "executive decisions" to say something to the public (heaven forbid) George may have taken as ACF President they do not relate to the decision to change venues that we were discussing. The mere reopening of bidding to other possible bids by the ACF Executive (again not GH) in a circumstance where the original bid at the intended venue had fallen through does not constitute all hell breaking loose - just sensible procedure.


So please Kevin, don't accuse me of having the facts wrong -

The facts you are quoting (if correct) are irrelevant to the point you are making and you certainly did have your facts wrong when suggesting that the decision to not move the venue was taken unilaterally without your input. To my previous call I add that you are now shifting the goalposts to matter irrelevant to the claims I am addressing.

I can't see what the big deal is anyway because it was agreed between you and the ACF that Mt B I had fallen through as a result of your decision to walk away from it. Note that you yourself flagged the possibility that the ACF might wish to go ahead with a non-CV endorsed deal in your post of June 30, made before the ACF Exec called for expressions of interest in such offers. So I struggle to see what on earth you are complaining about. Furthermore Bill has refuted your chronology - the ACF in no way jumped the gun.


Finally i cannot believe that any informed decision that you took had input from any member of the CV executive. I don't know who else you might have spoken to, but i would imagine that the organising committee of the event just "cancelled" would have been the people to talk to....and i just can't believe that any of them would have said, go back to Buller it will be fantastic...

You are in no position whatsoever to know who I might have had off the record discussions with who would not then tell you about those discussions. That is what "off the record" means, in case you did not know. Like I said, no comment on who my main source was. No comment on what their view was. Speculate all you like, you will probably be wrong.


Kevin, i am sorry if you don't feel that ACF, CV etc pass motions just because they are there, but that has been my experience.

I am not talking about CV, which I have no experience of, only the ACF.

The above has not been your "experience" of the ACF because it is not real. It may be your opinion or it may be just an exaggeration thereof in a failed attempt to stir the pot. I have voted against numerous motions put forward to Council for all sorts of reasons. Some of these motions have failed.

Once again - your comments reflect negatively on me but you have only been to a very small portion of the Council meetings I have been present at and you are unlikely to be in a position to make informed comment on my voting record and whether I put thought into matters as opposed to voting for them because they are there. I will not let this go because it voids your right to the moral highground every single time you accuse others of criticising you unfairly. I now request an apology as well as a retraction for this claim in as much as it refers to me. Perhaps you should do likewise for as many other councillors from the last few years as you can think of.

Alan Shore
09-07-2005, 03:57 PM
So, uh, anyone get those CD's?

Bereaved
09-07-2005, 11:48 PM
No one I know in Victoria has one yet; waiting, waiting, waiting...I forget, Why are we waiting?

Any sightings, (Redux),

all the best, God Bless, Macavity

Denis_Jessop
10-07-2005, 01:08 PM
No one I know in Victoria has one yet; waiting, waiting, waiting...I forget, Why are we waiting?

Any sightings, (Redux),

all the best, God Bless, Macavity

I haven't heard anything since I spoke to George on 20 June. He was to try to send out CDs that week and, if unable to, was to ring me on 27 June to arrange to send me the CDs and lists of subscribers. That didn't happen so I tried unsuccessfully to ring him a couple of days ago. Unfortunately I shan't be able to follow that up in the near future but steps are being taken to try by some means to have the CDs distributed by the ACF Council. There is a Council meeting on 18 July (to be chaired by Gary Wastell) so something should be decided then if not before.

DJ

DJ

arosar
10-07-2005, 01:28 PM
all the best, God Bless, Macavity

Mate, all we really need now is some sort of divine intervention. Maybe lightning striking GH on the bloody ass.

AR

Libby
10-07-2005, 01:33 PM
I haven't heard anything since I spoke to George on 20 June. He was to try to send out CDs that week and, if unable to, was to ring me on 27 June to arrange to send me the CDs and lists of subscribers. That didn't happen so I tried unsuccessfully to ring him a couple of days ago. Unfortunately I shan't be able to follow that up in the near future but steps are being taken to try by some means to have the CDs distributed by the ACF Council. There is a Council meeting on 18 July (to be chaired by Gary Wastell) so something should be decided then if not before.

DJ

DJ

Thanks Denis

On the matter of the CDs, this is good. But what about the bigger picture of the financial reporting of the event? And the $4000 Junior Development Funding?

The $4000 was a direct reduction in the prizefund for the Aus Juniors in response to a suggestion (largely from Jenni & myself) that it wasn't appropriate for children to play for such large amounts of money. The money was to go to a Junior Development Fund - not to be absorbed into general tournament revenues and redistributed who-knows-where?

I'm feeling like I'm harping on stuff for the simple pleasure of bludgeoning George - although that's not it at all. He's a businessman, none of this need for transparency, accountability, good faith and speed of delivery should be news to him.

He was paid to run this event. It isn't finished yet.

Garvinator
10-07-2005, 02:52 PM
But what about the bigger picture of the financial reporting of the event? This is what I want to see and am very interested in.


And the $4000 Junior Development Funding?

The $4000 was a direct reduction in the prizefund for the Aus Juniors in response to a suggestion (largely from Jenni & myself) that it wasn't appropriate for children to play for such large amounts of money. The money was to go to a Junior Development Fund - not to be absorbed into general tournament revenues and redistributed who-knows-where?

When starting on this journey, George was required to put in a projected budget to the acf council for approval etc. Has the acf council perused this approximate budget to see how that $4000 was to be allocated? If they dont have it or would like to see what I have for information, then I will be happy to assist. If the acf council believe that I should post it here, then I will do that too. I am not going to go through every mt buller email if there is no need to though.


I'm feeling like I'm harping on stuff for the simple pleasure of bludgeoning George - although that's not it at all. sure sure ;) ;) :uhoh: :whistle:


He's a businessman, none of this need for transparency, accountability, good faith and speed of delivery should be news to him.Actually it was very much news.

arosar
10-07-2005, 03:03 PM
When starting on this journey . . .

It's a fkn "journey" alright . . . a long endless drive.

Now boys and girls, repeat after me: "ARE WE THERE YET?"

AR

Denis_Jessop
10-07-2005, 03:55 PM
Thanks Denis

On the matter of the CDs, this is good. But what about the bigger picture of the financial reporting of the event? And the $4000 Junior Development Funding?

The $4000 was a direct reduction in the prizefund for the Aus Juniors in response to a suggestion (largely from Jenni & myself) that it wasn't appropriate for children to play for such large amounts of money. The money was to go to a Junior Development Fund - not to be absorbed into general tournament revenues and redistributed who-knows-where?

I'm feeling like I'm harping on stuff for the simple pleasure of bludgeoning George - although that's not it at all. He's a businessman, none of this need for transparency, accountability, good faith and speed of delivery should be news to him.

He was paid to run this event. It isn't finished yet.

It is quite clear that the ACF By-laws require an audited financial statement, that all parties know that and that no such statement has yet been provided.

The critical issue is what does one do if no statment is provided? There are all sorts of threats and penal action that come to mind and many of them have been mentioned in postings here. But would they have the effect of securing a statement? Unlike a government, the ACF has no way of enforcing its position other than by civil action in the courts which is potentially damaging for everyone.

As for the $4000 Junior Development Fund, to take on board Garvin's point as well, it was not part of George's budget in his bid for the event. (Actually the bid was made in the name of the ACF but it was always treated as George's bid.) The $4000 Fund idea was mentioned at the relevant Council meeting though it is not specifically referred to in the minutes. George confirmed it by a post next day on this BB. Whether the ACF ever sees any of it depends in part on the financial statement and whether George can pay it. I note Libby's point that it was negotiated by her and Jenni with George. The ACF (except perhaps in the guise of George) was not a party to that negotiation. It was presented by George as a promise to the Council. I would have real doubt whether it is a legally enforceable promise and like the provision of the financial statement, the only way to enforce it, were it enforceable, would be through the courts.

However, nothing that I say here should pre-empt the action of the Council as only it can decide what to do. I know that some Councillors, including me, feel that sorting out the CD matter is first priority and that if that can be done something will have been achieved. We also feel that that matter is more likely to be resolved than that of the financial statement, important though the latter is. I also know that the Councillors who have spoken to me regard the whole matter most seriously so I hope that the Council will be able to resolve something constructive on 18 July. As you know, I shan't be able to be at that meeting.

DJ

Garvinator
10-07-2005, 04:13 PM
It's a fkn "journey" alright . . . a long endless drive.

Now boys and girls, repeat after me: "ARE WE THERE YET?"

AR
nope, we arent there yet, but will be at buller, with George in charge in 2007 ;) :hmm:

Garvinator
10-07-2005, 04:19 PM
It is quite clear that the ACF By-laws require an audited financial statement, that all parties know that and that no such statement has yet been provided.

The critical issue is what does one do if no statment is provided? Surely removal as vp would have to be one step. Also no financial statement should make any 2007 deal impossible when 2005 is not fully resolved.


George confirmed it by a post next day on this BB. Whether the ACF ever sees any of it depends in part on the financial statement and whether George can pay it. I note Libby's point that it was negotiated by her and Jenni with George. The ACF (except perhaps in the guise of George) was not a party to that negotiation. It was presented by George as a promise to the Council. I would have real doubt whether it is a legally enforceable promise and like the provision of the financial statement, the only way to enforce it, were it enforceable, would be through the courts. I believe that statement is here: http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=1292&highlight=junior+development+fund

Kerry Stead
10-07-2005, 05:41 PM
Surely removal as vp would have to be one step. Also no financial statement should make any 2007 deal impossible when 2005 is not fully resolved.
I get the feeling that an Australian Open/Championships at Mt Buller won't happen in 2007 ... or any year in the next 30 or so years!

Denis_Jessop
10-07-2005, 05:49 PM
Surely removal as vp would have to be one step. Also no financial statement should make any 2007 deal impossible when 2005 is not fully resolved.

I believe that statement is here: http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=1292&highlight=junior+development+fund


Removal as VP is one option that I mentioned to Councillors in an e-mail a while ago but I don't see it as likely to produce anything that we want. I am not sure that George even wants to be VP now. But at least while he is a Councillor the Council has some tenuous influence on him. Were he not, that would be lost though it should be noted that he is also entitled to be a non-voting Councillor as Immediate Past President until 6 January 2006.

As I understand it no 2007 Mt Buller bid is at present proposed by George (or anyone else for that matter). George has told me that he is not putting one in.

DJ



DJ

antichrist
10-07-2005, 06:14 PM
Mate, all we really need now is some sort of divine intervention. Maybe lightning striking GH on the bloody ass.

AR

They could be a toss up which comes first, the CDs or JC's return.

Garvinator
10-07-2005, 11:34 PM
As I understand it no 2007 Mt Buller bid is at present proposed by George (or anyone else for that matter). George has told me that he is not putting one in.
Just checked the constitution, seemed to have changed in layout. Where is the section on when the host state holding rights expire and it becomes open slather for everyone to put in a bid for the 2007 open/juniors. I remember it to be July 2005, 18 months beforehand.

Denis_Jessop
10-07-2005, 11:48 PM
Just checked the constitution, seemed to have changed in layout. Where is the section on when the host state holding rights expire and it becomes open slather for everyone to put in a bid for the 2007 open/juniors. I remember it to be July 2005, 18 months beforehand.

It's in para 9 of the Procedures for Allocating ACF Tournaments.

Paul B has recently put the current text of the Constitution and By-laws on the ACF website but had a little trouble translating my Word document and so it is in plain text. Also the table of State options was in PDF format and now appears separately at the end of the links on the left hand side instead of as part of the "Procedures" document. Despite the heading, the table was adopted by the ACF Council some time ago (in 2004) and so is no longer "proposed". I've also just noticed that the reference in para 9 to 2011 should now be 2015 but that is not a material defect.

DJ

Bill Gletsos
10-07-2005, 11:49 PM
Just checked the constitution, seemed to have changed in layout. Where is the section on when the host state holding rights expire and it becomes open slather for everyone to put in a bid for the 2007 open/juniors. I remember it to be July 2005, 18 months beforehand.It is not part of the constitution and never has been.

Garvinator
10-07-2005, 11:52 PM
It's in para 9 of the Procedures for Allocating ACF Tournaments.

Paul B has recently put the current text of the Constitution and By-laws on the ACF website but had a little trouble translating my Word document and so it is in plain text. Also the table of State options was in PDF format and now appears separately at the end of the links on the left hand side instead of as part of the "Procedures" document. Despite the heading, the table was adopted by the ACF Council some time ago (in 2004) and so is no longer "proposed". I've also just noticed that the reference in para 9 to 2011 should now be 2015 but that is not a material defect.

DJ
yeah, i just found the pdf when I downloaded the constitution/by laws onto my computer :doh: Down the bottom of the table, should the junior tournaments say QLD instead of Tas? since 2005/06 has now been allocated to Brisbane.

Bill Gletsos
11-07-2005, 12:05 AM
yeah, i just found the pdf when I downloaded the constitution/by laws onto my computer :doh: Down the bottom of the table, should the junior tournaments say QLD instead of Tas? since 2005/06 has now been allocated to Brisbane.No. The table is correct.

Bereaved
11-07-2005, 03:19 AM
Hello everyone,

I have still a slim hope of receiving a cd it seems and there appears at this stage that there is still a slim hope that at some point there may be a financial report issued and perhaps distributed? (hopefully?)

as far as the issue of returning to the mountain, catholic that I am, I'm siding with Mohammed on this one!

I'm interested about the $4000 development fund though. Even leaving aside the issue of it appearing on a formalised budget, the promise of it in the threads on this site, in a public forum, must be taken as of some weighting in a legal standpoint, and the only way that I could see that as being negated is if George denied that he himself had posted it and it had in fact been the work of someone accessing his account illegally. Difficult to assert that one for him, and probably easily disproved by the site administrators as they would undoubtedly have kept a fairly accurate log of George's postings, including the point of access that they were made from on the internet, with good reason in and on behalf of their own complaints in this matter.

I am interested to know how it was decided that the juniors were to be competing for too great a sum of money? On what grounds is the amount of money considered to be too much? It is highly likely that in the event of a large prize being received by a junior chess player, after allowing for a suitable short term prize to be purchased by or for the winner, that the parents would be able to allow a much greater access for their child to numerous significant national events by being able to afford travel and accomodation costs.

If the money is instead placed within a junior development fund, how will that money benefit all juniors? Or rather will it only benefit those in the running to participate on an international basis, or national squad level? What was the notion to support this junior development fund, and who was to have adminstered it? Is there any clear views on how these funds were to be allocated, or were they to have been allotted on an as needed basis?
We currently send one junior in each age category overseas; was that to have been expanded to two?

And Libby and Jenni have been spoken of ( by themselves ) as both the instigators in chief of this fund, and now in turn are the chief pursuers of its delivery. On what basis was it decided that the appeal to alter the prize fund and instead set up a separate fund for Junior development was something for these two individuals to have an involvement in? Surely as George was the organiser, he was at liberty to negotiate with any party he wished, but it seems from the posts to this point that Jenni has clearly highlighted that the idea arose ' mainly ' from herself and Libby. I just want to know what capacity these two persons had to reorganize the prize structure of the Buller Juniors, and who did they consult with, and how widely, and who it was that decided how much was acceptable to be won in a children's competition?

These questions, I fear have doubtlessly been asked before, but I beg someone's indulgence in telling me the answers again, or failing that, to point me to the exact post(s) where they are stipulated. Two or three posts ago it was highlighted that the $4000 was never an official agreement, or decided at that level, and as such it would be comforting to read where the discussion took place in this matter, how it was commenced, who initiated it, their reasons, and what the terms and conditions were altered from, what they became, that this in turn produced this figure of $4000 and as aforesaid the stipulated planned or projected expenditure of this sum,

BTW the Juniors are still in Brisbane aren't they?

all the best, God Bless, Macavity

Libby
11-07-2005, 07:18 AM
And Libby and Jenni have been spoken of ( by themselves ) as both the instigators in chief of this fund, and now in turn are the chief pursuers of its delivery. On what basis was it decided that the appeal to alter the prize fund and instead set up a separate fund for Junior development was something for these two individuals to have an involvement in? Surely as George was the organiser, he was at liberty to negotiate with any party he wished, but it seems from the posts to this point that Jenni has clearly highlighted that the idea arose ' mainly ' from herself and Libby. I just want to know what capacity these two persons had to reorganize the prize structure of the Buller Juniors, and who did they consult with, and how widely, and who it was that decided how much was acceptable to be won in a children's competition?

I think the important point to remember is that we pushed the idea. We made no decisions and nobody was bound to follow our lead. I don't see too many people reluctant to float ideas in a forum like this. Once our idea was taken up, we have pursued it's delivery because failing to deliver the fund means the Juniors have been shortchanged in more than their party & CD delivery - they have had $4000 that was originally to go home with them as prizemoney taken away to who-knows-where? When we advocated something, we feel a level of responsibility to see it delivered.

I was surprised to find my daughter competing for money in her first Aus Junior. It wasn't my experience of junior sport previously, at any level.

I am personally opposed to large amounts of money being on the table for juniors in these events - as a parent and as a junior sports administrator. That's my opinion and I don't expect to find it immensely widespread as there is a clear culture of playing for money in chess, whether you are 6 or 60. It clearly plays a significant part in the decision of each and every player - at any level - when they determine whether or not they want to play at all.

I considered it inappropriate that very large money prizes were available for even very young children. I put my opinion forward. Off hand, I can't remember the amounts. I am not thinking of funding my daughter's travels from her winnings. I am quite happy for her (at 11) to compete to win enough to buy a computer game (or even two) if prizemoney is on the table, but not enough to buy her own home theatre system.


that this in turn produced this figure of $4000 and as aforesaid the stipulated planned or projected expenditure of this sum,

The original junior prize fund was reduced by $4000. This sum represents the first advertised prize fund less the finally advertised prize fund.

Bereaved
11-07-2005, 07:33 AM
Libby, why such a heavy emphasis on the word idea? You seem to have made your idea a reality, if only so far as the alteration of the prize fund, but awaiting the yet to be acquired $4000 junior development fund. But on the other question, what are your ideas ;) of how this junior development fund is to be utilised?

All the best, God Bless, Macavity

and BTW Dennis, when the ACF meeting is held on the 18th of July, will we know the outcome in good order? Thanking you in advance, M

Bereaved
11-07-2005, 07:37 AM
Hi everyone,

Is the suggestion regarding Tasmania that in other circumstances than the combined bid for all events, they would have first dibs on the Austalian Juniors?
And if so, does that mean that they lose their spot in the queue or in fact stay there until the next bidding process starts, and have first call on the 2007 event?
just curious, being neither a junior, nor a parent,

all the best, God Bless, Macavity

ChessGuru
11-07-2005, 03:40 PM
Kevin,

I apologise to you and all other ACF office bearers for my implicaions. I withdraw all statements made.

David

PHAT
11-07-2005, 03:53 PM
... they have had $4000 that was originally to go home with them as prizemoney taken away to who-knows-where? When we advocated something, we feel a level of responsibility to see it delivered.


The NECG deal went belly up as soon as some stinking Yanks took hold of the reins. The previous boss felt a obligation to see the deal continue and put his hand in his pocket to do so. :clap: One of the few responsible corporate heads around.

Now, it was the ACF deligates who gave the Buller job to GH. So, perhaps if those deligates coughed up $200 each, the juniors could get the $4k is thier rightful due. If I was a deligate, I would feel compelled to right the wrong.

$200, fellows. The ball is in your court.

auriga
11-07-2005, 05:06 PM
maybe the best course of action is to send a written invoice for $4000
and requested delivery of cd's (or $500 in lieu)
address direct to his wife, mrs howard - surely this is the most effective way
of getting the matter resolved quickly :D

otherwise, who is closer enough to negotiate with him effectively?!

i think the chess community is way too patient and nice in this situation.
a deadline should be just that.
also, if no progress is made why should organisers not be banned (say 1-10 years). we reward players/organisers/journament with purdy/steiner medals for good work in the year. why not prevent organisers from causing more damage sometime in the future.

Libby
11-07-2005, 06:30 PM
Libby, why such a heavy emphasis on the word idea? You seem to have made your idea a reality, if only so far as the alteration of the prize fund, but awaiting the yet to be acquired $4000 junior development fund. But on the other question, what are your ideas ;) of how this junior development fund is to be utilised?

All the best, God Bless, Macavity

and BTW Dennis, when the ACF meeting is held on the 18th of July, will we know the outcome in good order? Thanking you in advance, M

When I emphasised the word idea, it was primarily to dispel any suggestion that I controlled the decision-making. I expressed concern firstly over the amount of money my daughter was potentially playing for. The response of George to my suggestion (amongst others) was to propose a reduction in prizemoney with the funds then set aside in a Junior Development Fund.

A thread was devoted to the proposed use of that money. I floated some ideas there. We have an ACF Junior Sub-Committee now so I would consider the ball in that court more than mine. It is an awkward amount, not enough to do a lot and too much to do a little. It should be apparent from that thread, that George had big picture ideas of his own. It is hard to know what might be appropriate without first knowing that the money is actually available and if any conditions are attached (due to any sponsorship constraints).

Given the (presumably) finite level of funds (possibly) at our disposal I would probably advocate supporting an identified group of players to travel to quality events in our region.

HAL
12-07-2005, 09:26 AM
Given the (presumably) finite level of funds (possibly) at our disposal I would probably advocate supporting an identified group of players to travel to quality events in our region.

Let's hope the level of funds is at least positive. I'm sure it will be finite.

However, I have a little trouble seeing how supporting an identified group of players to travel to quality events in our region is really the most effective way to develop junior chess. Obviously opinions will vary of the most effective use of the funds, but it would seem to me that this will benefit a very small number of juniors who are already "identified" but little for junior chess on the whole.

Other ideas would be to specifically use the money to widen the base of juniors who have access to training squad-type events, or distributed to the state/territory junior associations to foster junior development in their regions.

I guess the first question is, does the $4000 exist? The immediate questions after that are: whose money is it? And, who decides how it is to be used? As many junior-chess administrators are also the parents of junior-chess competitors the process should be transparent.

PHAT
12-07-2005, 09:31 AM
Why not prevent organisers from causing more damage sometime in the future.

The job of prevention in this case was the ACF's. The buck (and the bucks) stops withe the ACF, for buck's sake.

The ACF ought to right the wrong NOW, and wring the money out of wrong doer later in a manner they see fit.

Libby
12-07-2005, 06:54 PM
However, I have a little trouble seeing how supporting an identified group of players to travel to quality events in our region is really the most effective way to develop junior chess. Obviously opinions will vary of the most effective use of the funds, but it would seem to me that this will benefit a very small number of juniors who are already "identified" but little for junior chess on the whole.

Other ideas would be to specifically use the money to widen the base of juniors who have access to training squad-type events, or distributed to the state/territory junior associations to foster junior development in their regions.


I guess I see it differently because we run so many development activities on a local level in the ACT. I am running one right now as a consequence of an $1800 Women's Sports Grant. We run 3 junior clubs for very basic development ($6 for 2 hours), school holiday coaching days with dual player/coach development functions ($25/day ea), a "Development Squad" for around 30 identified 7-14 year olds (8x monthly full-day sessions for $150), a "Grandmaster Weekend" where coaches like GM Rogers & Johansen have come to work with our players ($50/weekend) and then heavily subsidise our Aus Junior coaching. The Women's Sport Grant has enabled a program for 36 girls over 3 days ($50 ea) with 6 coaching sessions, a book, t-shirt, pizza lunch, afternoon teas, movie tickets, trophies etc etc.

I think that is our role as a state junior chess organisation. We'd love someone to throw money at us (and we'd make good use of it) but we don't need them to.

At a national level we have the NECG Squad and small subsidies for the kids going to World Youth. In many ways I do agree that supporting a small number of kids to travel regionally doesn't necessarily lead to broad benefit. However, $4000 spread over all states doesn't do much either. Nobody will get enough to do anything meaningful. But if we had (for example - I'm not spouting this as the answer) 4x $1000 scholarships which might just tip the financial balance enough to get some of our best and brightest some extra international exposure, chances for norms etc - then that should be of some long term benefit if you look to select the (future) Smerdon, Zhao level of player.

Just an idea anyway.

Bereaved
12-07-2005, 11:56 PM
Although this idea sounds like an offer that any person in chess might dream of, I think it could cause some large scale anguish, if one were not one of those picked for the scholarship, but felt one should be. That could in turn lead to dissatisfaction of a large enough scale for those who have missed out to give up chess. I do not feel that this idea is the solution. I do recall that I suggested that the funds might be directed towards sending two representatives in each age category overseas to junior events; as it is I find it hard at times to comprehend that so much is in the ACF bank account yet exceptionally few of our overseas representatives receive anything close to adequate funding.

In this particular regard, I often think about why we must do fundraising for olympiads and the like? Surely the ACF could invest more in our overseas participants of all ages and in turn enable our players to have a greater presence on all levels.

All the best, God Bless, Macavity

PS sorry I've added a new fuel to the fire, but I suppose we are in theory supposed to be talking about CD's. Speaking of which... :hmm: :wall: :doh:

Libby
13-07-2005, 07:23 AM
Although this idea sounds like an offer that any person in chess might dream of, I think it could cause some large scale anguish, if one were not one of those picked for the scholarship, but felt one should be. That could in turn lead to dissatisfaction of a large enough scale for those who have missed out to give up chess. I do not feel that this idea is the solution. I do recall that I suggested that the funds might be directed towards sending two representatives in each age category overseas to junior events; as it is I find it hard at times to comprehend that so much is in the ACF bank account yet exceptionally few of our overseas representatives receive anything close to adequate funding.

In this particular regard, I often think about why we must do fundraising for olympiads and the like? Surely the ACF could invest more in our overseas participants of all ages and in turn enable our players to have a greater presence on all levels.

All the best, God Bless, Macavity

PS sorry I've added a new fuel to the fire, but I suppose we are in theory supposed to be talking about CD's. Speaking of which... :hmm: :wall: :doh:

I don't think the anguish side of things would be anything new. We have had our controversies in the past over World Youth selections. The ACF support ($100) is hardly enough to get hot and bothered over but the selected representative does get free accommodation/meals for the event so there is a significant benefit to being first chosen. Even when we acknowledge two or more candidates are highly suitable. Some states/individuals always find it hard to accept their second placing and it's unfortunate that we do (as an organisation) offer such limited support and make it difficult to send all those the selectors might consider worthy. For some families, selection or non-selection makes the decision to travel to this sort of event a wholly financial one.

Can't do a lot anyway unless the money does "pop up." If it does, and we intend the Junior Sub-Committee to be a working, worthwhile initiative, I hope they'll come up with a way to effectively use the funds. $4000 is just not a lot of money on a national scale.

HAL
13-07-2005, 09:13 AM
I guess I see it differently because we run so many development activities on a local level in the ACT. I am running one right now as a consequence of an $1800 Women's Sports Grant. We run 3 junior clubs for very basic development ($6 for 2 hours), school holiday coaching days with dual player/coach development functions ($25/day ea), a "Development Squad" for around 30 identified 7-14 year olds (8x monthly full-day sessions for $150), a "Grandmaster Weekend" where coaches like GM Rogers & Johansen have come to work with our players ($50/weekend) and then heavily subsidise our Aus Junior coaching. The Women's Sport Grant has enabled a program for 36 girls over 3 days ($50 ea) with 6 coaching sessions, a book, t-shirt, pizza lunch, afternoon teas, movie tickets, trophies etc etc.

I think that is our role as a state junior chess organisation. We'd love someone to throw money at us (and we'd make good use of it) but we don't need them to.

At a national level we have the NECG Squad and small subsidies for the kids going to World Youth. In many ways I do agree that supporting a small number of kids to travel regionally doesn't necessarily lead to broad benefit. However, $4000 spread over all states doesn't do much either. Nobody will get enough to do anything meaningful. But if we had (for example - I'm not spouting this as the answer) 4x $1000 scholarships which might just tip the financial balance enough to get some of our best and brightest some extra international exposure, chances for norms etc - then that should be of some long term benefit if you look to select the (future) Smerdon, Zhao level of player.

Just an idea anyway.

Ideas are good but I guess the more important point to my mind is identification of the owner of the money, who will be solicited for ideas, how the various ideas can be discussed and a who will decided upon a plan.

I agree $4000 will not go a long way and overseas travel is an expensive business. However, it could buy a hell of a lot of sets for new junior clubs (for example). I'm not throwing my support behind spending all the money on sets (I mean you need more than sets to start new junior clubs), just want to widen the base of ideas that are considered.

Kevin Bonham
13-07-2005, 01:35 PM
Kevin,

I apologise to you and all other ACF office bearers for my implicaions. I withdraw all statements made.

David

Thanks.

Libby
13-07-2005, 07:57 PM
(I mean you need more than sets to start new junior clubs)

Like people/administrators for instance (and I don't mean the kids themselves). I'd consider that a bigger shortcoming than the need for the cash - unless you are talking about providing equipment for a club whose administration is outsourced to business, rather than volunteer, interests.

If it does show up (the cash that is) I would think the Junior Sub-Committee members would be the right people to throw the ideas to. The whole idea was to have a body like that to bounce the ideas around and make a recommendation to the ACF (which is not binding on the ACF but would hopefully carry weight in the decision-making).

I'm interested enough to proffer an idea but admit to knowing little about the needs of the very elite, or the conduct of junior chess in other states. :confused:

Mischa
13-07-2005, 09:39 PM
um who exactly are the Junior Sub-Committee?
And how did they get to be such?

Bill Gletsos
13-07-2005, 11:12 PM
um who exactly are the Junior Sub-Committee?
And how did they get to be such?The ACF created a Junior Sub committee and asked the state associations to each nominate a single representative. In NSW case the NSWCA let the NSWJCL recommend a representative. The NSWCA then informed the ACF President that NSW's rep was Richard Gastineau-Hills.

Garvinator
13-07-2005, 11:15 PM
The ACF created a Junior Sub committee and asked the state associations to each nominate a single representative. In NSW case the NSWCA let the NSWJCL recommend a representative. The NSWCA then informed the ACF President that NSW's rep was Richard Gastineau-Hills.
CAQ's nomination is Keiran Olm-Mulligan.

Mischa
13-07-2005, 11:47 PM
I don't recall any voting in VIC?
I am not on any committee but then I have no idea..(:))
So who votes in the people who vote in the junior reps and should these be the same people?
Is this position advertised or just selected and voted inhouse?

Bill Gletsos
13-07-2005, 11:57 PM
I don't recall any voting in VIC?
I am not on any committee but then I have no idea..(:))
So who votes in the people who vote in the junior reps and should these be the same people?
Is this position advertised or just selected and voted inhouse?It is an ACF sub committee and as such the ACF Council gets to set the rules. However how each state picks its representative is up to each State Association. As I said the NSWCA let the NSWJCL pick its representative. I believe the ACTCA let the ACTJCL pick its rep.

eclectic
14-07-2005, 12:13 AM
a ha!
so the once glorious?? vic junior chess league or whatever has contracted thus into a star chamber type configuration which uses in house selection to pick its delegate?

:hmm:

eclectic

OK, OK, I'm Sh*t Stirring

Libby
14-07-2005, 07:51 AM
I rather expected my continual harping on the junior sub-committee would rouse a level of suspicion about it's construction/origins/bias etc. I am not the ACTJCL rep BTW - it is Jenni.

We did have a whole thread on this (somewhat sidetracked in the end) http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=991&highlight=Junior+Sub-committee.

peanbrain
23-07-2005, 01:23 AM
Now where are those CDs boy george promised??!! :evil:

antichrist
23-07-2005, 03:11 AM
Now where are those CDs boy george promised??!! :evil:

People have been waiting 2000 years for JC's return and still very patient..........
Inshallah sayadit, Allahu Akhbar

adelandre
23-07-2005, 10:48 AM
Dear All,

I haven't been on here for a few months but seeing the turmoil that has developed here I would be happy to send a copy of the CD to the ACF webmaster / someone else who could post the content. I will wait for Dennis to contact me as he seems to be handling the matter well.

Kind Regards
Andrew

PHAT
23-07-2005, 06:29 PM
I will wait for Dennis to contact me as he seems to be handling the matter well.

If the matter was being handled well by the ACF, you would have been contacted many months ago - maybe 6 months ago.

Bereaved
23-07-2005, 07:58 PM
Dear George, I appear to have a speech impediment;
What I meant to say was "Thank you so much for the prompt delivery of my cd"

Instead it came out as " George, this is the cat that chewed your new shoes, and I am just going to keep stomping all over those blue suede shoes, Mr dancing queen, until I get my CD; Clear enough? "

I well and truly feel that we are now deserving of a true explanation, and a deadline for delivery of the cd's not just kept hanging on the telephone (Forum)

take care, and God bless, everyone ( NB George please reassure us and me in particular that I should keep you in this prayer list, as it would be tiresome to append, 'except George' ok)

all the best, Macavity

tcn (on locatio
23-07-2005, 11:21 PM
Dear All,

I haven't been on here for a few months but seeing the turmoil that has developed here I would be happy to send a copy of the CD to the ACF webmaster / someone else who could post the content. I will wait for Dennis to contact me as he seems to be handling the matter well.

Kind Regards
Andrew

[homer simpson impression] Woo bl--dy Hoo [/homer simpson impression]

They might come yet.... :D

Oepty
24-07-2005, 03:31 PM
If the matter was being handled well by the ACF, you would have been contacted many months ago - maybe 6 months ago.

I disagree. Andrew played his part in the Mt Buller tournaments and that was finished. It is George, not Andrew who should be doing the CD's. I think Dennis has done the right thing in not contacting Andrew before he made this offer.
Scott

Bill Gletsos
24-07-2005, 03:46 PM
I disagree. Andrew played his part in the Mt Buller tournaments and that was finished. It is George, not Andrew who should be doing the CD's. I think Dennis has done the right thing in not contacting Andrew before he made this offer.
ScottAlso only George has the list of those that requested and paid for the CD, not Andrew or Denis.

Bereaved
24-07-2005, 04:24 PM
Hello everyone,

The previous post had at least one important piece of information; it suggests that George is the only one with a copy of the list of those who have paid to receive the CD. Is this true? And if so, will we be able to get the list from him at least?

Take Care all, and God Bless, Macavity

Bill Gletsos
24-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Hello everyone,

The previous post had at least one important piece of information; it suggests that George is the only one with a copy of the list of those who have paid to receive the CD. Is this true? And if so, will we be able to get the list from him at least?Denis basically said this in post #52 in this thread.

It is my understanding that George is the only one who has the list.

Bereaved
24-07-2005, 08:48 PM
Hello Bill, I'll accept that George is the only one with the list, and in fact, leaving aside references of posts, and their numbers, I knew that this piece of information had been posted; what I was trying to do was to highlight that piece of information in regards to your post above, and the likelihood of the aforementioned list being reacquired, as distinct from the provision of CD's from George, which may be overseen by other parties, who will still nonetheless need to know who they go to.

Elsewise, any number of people could make claims as to their right to a CD, whether they had ordered one or not,

Take care, and God Bless, Macavity

PHAT
24-07-2005, 09:53 PM
I disagree. Andrew played his part in the Mt Buller tournaments and that was finished. It is George, not Andrew who should be doing the CD's. I think Dennis has done the right thing in not contacting Andrew before he made this offer.
Scott

Freddo, Andrew,

I was/am not having a go at Andrew. It just seamed to me that:

1. The CDs are most relevent to the purchasers in the days/weeks just after the event.
2. When the CDs were not mailed within a month, the ACF should have taken whatever steps necessary to ensure that CDs where sent ASAP.
3. Andrew might have had a copy of the CD.
4. Therefore, Andrew should have been contacted to see if he had one.

I didn't know that GH had the only copy of a list of customers.

PHAT
24-07-2005, 09:59 PM
Elsewise, any number of people could make claims as to their right to a CD, whether they had ordered one or not.

The CD contents should be posted on the ACF web page. At least then the payers will have what they paid for.

It might be erksome to have paid for something that later becomes free, but it is far superior to being robbed outright.

The lack of a customer list should not prevent the customers from getting the product right now.

Bereaved
24-07-2005, 10:17 PM
Fair enough, Matt; that the information is provided. Not fair enough; that George Howard who is actually the holder of the funds collected for the CD's should get to keep it!

If the substance of the Cd is placed in the public arena, then the return of $12 to numerous people hardly seems optional.

Speaking of money, which we were though only obliquely, has the ACF executive received a balance sheet for Buller yet?

I have not heard that this is the case and as such, seem to recall that the stipulated date for the ACF Council meeting mentioned earlier in this thread was somewhere around the 17-19/07/05, so does anyone know?

Bill is on the executive, one presumes he would at least have some idea, even if only from a set of minutes, about the decisions or actions to be undertaken in this matter to bring it to resolution...interesting to see if anyone can comment...(fishing, fishing)

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Oepty
27-07-2005, 06:47 PM
Freddo, Andrew,

I was/am not having a go at Andrew. It just seamed to me that:

1. The CDs are most relevent to the purchasers in the days/weeks just after the event.
2. When the CDs were not mailed within a month, the ACF should have taken whatever steps necessary to ensure that CDs where sent ASAP.
3. Andrew might have had a copy of the CD.
4. Therefore, Andrew should have been contacted to see if he had one.

I didn't know that GH had the only copy of a list of customers.

Matthew. I had no problem at all with your previous comments, and I certainly did not think you were attacking Andrew. I did not mean my post to be defending him, rather defending the ACF's recent actions on the matter.
Scott

PHAT
28-07-2005, 12:09 AM
I did not mean my post to be defending him, rather defending the ACF's recent actions on the matter.
Scott

ACF actions?: Too little too late.

Oepty
28-07-2005, 05:53 PM
ACF actions?: Too little too late.

My quote did say recent. As far as too little, Dennis hasn't posted of late so we can not know what he has been doing in the last little while. For all we know he may have made some further progress on the matter.
Scott

PHAT
28-07-2005, 06:24 PM
For all we know he may have made some further progress on the matter.
Scott

There is only one step that could reasonably be called "progress" - the securing of the CD. If he had it, he would have posted to that that affect. SInce he has not posted, he has made no progress.

arosar
28-07-2005, 06:28 PM
There is only one step that could reasonably be called "progress" - the securing of the CD. If he had it, he would have posted to that that affect. SInce he has not posted, he has made no progress.


Hasn't he been hospitalised or something?

AR

PHAT
28-07-2005, 07:07 PM
Hasn't he been hospitalised or something?

AR

No excuse. ;)

McTaggart
28-07-2005, 07:50 PM
Dear Peanbrain,Macavity and other hopefull trusting souls,take a deep breath and read this next line carefully. There were no cds, there are no cds and there will be no cds!.
ditto for the junior fund money. You can expel your breath now other-wise you will go blue in the face. Also, forget any thought of a refund,you have two chances of receiving anything and one of them is Buckleys......Once you can absorb all of this you can go on with your life,it's all GONE. may your God be with you....

klyall
28-07-2005, 09:25 PM
Do I go to Consumer Affairs? :evil:

shaun
28-07-2005, 11:00 PM
Do I go to Consumer Affairs? :evil:

(NB I am not a lawyer)
My suggestion is to contact the South Australian Department responsible for the administration of public companies, which I think is the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs (http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/).
Registered companies (and incorporated bodies) are required to submit audited financial returns each year and company directors can be fined for failure to do so.
So either you get a clearer picture of where George put the money or the OCBA puts the squeeze on him.
BTW This is the path of action I think the ACF should persue as well.

DoroPhil
28-07-2005, 11:07 PM
(NB I am not a lawyer)
My suggestion is to contact the South Australian Department responsible for the administration of public companies, which I think is the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs (http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/).
Registered companies (and incorporated bodies) are required to submit audited financial returns each year and company directors can be fined for failure to do so.
So either you get a clearer picture of where George put the money or the OCBA puts the squeeze on him.
BTW This is the path of action I think the ACF should persue as well.

What about our young eagle Gray? He was pretending to be second in charge - is he not responsible/ accountable in any way?

Garvinator
29-07-2005, 01:16 AM
What about our young eagle Gray? He was pretending to be second in charge - is he not responsible/ accountable in any way?

I dont believe I am in any way. If i was i am sure someone would have mentioned this previously.

George signed?, well signed as far as I have been led to believe, an agreement with the acf where he would assume all liabilities and profits if any (i think it concerned profits as well) in return for the acf not being legally responsible in any way if things went wrong.

I would have not been apart of the organising committee if i was financially responsible for the overall event, without being the main organiser(does that make sense? :uhoh: )

It was George who negotiated at the july? acf council meeting to put $4000 from the junior prize money towards a junior development fund. George was responsible for handling all the money and I was in NO WAY a signatory of cheques.

Quite often, George took decisions of any kind of nature without discussing things with other members of the organising committee.

Regarding CD's- About the only information I have is some of the pgn's from the open and juniors, which I have either sent along to Karthick previously, or have posted on here previously.

I dont have the information for the bulletins or anything else. I certainly dont have the mailing list for those who paid for the cd's. George accepted all the cash for that. My only involvement with the bulletins was to help edit and prepare some of the games etc and articles.

I have had no involvement with anything to do with the bulletins or cd's since leaving mt buller on the 23rd January 2005.

Even if i asked George for the mailing list in person and get the rest of the information for the cds, which would require me to travel to adelaide, I dont think he would give it to me.

Therefore, George is the one who is completely responsible for the cd's and the $4000 junior development fund.

arosar
29-07-2005, 12:30 PM
Even if i asked George for the mailing list in person and get the rest of the information for the cds, which would require me to travel to adelaide, I dont think he would give it to me.

You're always angling for a free trip, ain't ya?! Why exactly would you need to travel to Adelaide?

AR

Oepty
29-07-2005, 05:02 PM
I dont believe I am in any way. If i was i am sure someone would have mentioned this previously.

George signed?, well signed as far as I have been led to believe, an agreement with the acf where he would assume all liabilities and profits if any (i think it concerned profits as well) in return for the acf not being legally responsible in any way if things went wrong.

I would have not been apart of the organising committee if i was financially responsible for the overall event, without being the main organiser(does that make sense? :uhoh: )

It was George who negotiated at the july? acf council meeting to put $4000 from the junior prize money towards a junior development fund. George was responsible for handling all the money and I was in NO WAY a signatory of cheques.

Quite often, George took decisions of any kind of nature without discussing things with other members of the organising committee.

Regarding CD's- About the only information I have is some of the pgn's from the open and juniors, which I have either sent along to Karthick previously, or have posted on here previously.

I dont have the information for the bulletins or anything else. I certainly dont have the mailing list for those who paid for the cd's. George accepted all the cash for that. My only involvement with the bulletins was to help edit and prepare some of the games etc and articles.

I have had no involvement with anything to do with the bulletins or cd's since leaving mt buller on the 23rd January 2005.

Even if i asked George for the mailing list in person and get the rest of the information for the cds, which would require me to travel to adelaide, I dont think he would give it to me.

Therefore, George is the one who is completely responsible for the cd's and the $4000 junior development fund.

Garvin, I don't think you are in any way responsible for the non delivering of the CDs. As far as the money goes I don't think you are either unless you are some way part of the company George set up.
Scott

Garvinator
29-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Garvin, I don't think you are in any way responsible for the non delivering of the CDs. As far as the money goes I don't think you are either unless you are some way part of the company George set up.
Scott
That 'organisation' was set up by George to reduce the 'taxes' that David Cordover and Graeme Gardiner would have to pay for the businesses as they were sending groups of players and George was saying that they would have to pay GST or something similiar if there was no non profit organisation running it. I dont know the specifics of the details. I believe it was called Mt buller inc or something, but i never saw a constitution or anything. George just told me it was there and I was somehow part of it.

Maybe the guru can elaborate on this tax information.

I cant believe that George didnt put away the $4000 to start with after receiving the first set of money from the sponsors. He could have handed it over then to the acf council as it was a guaranteed cost that he expected to spend on entry fees for the juniors. It was not a new cost, just a redistribution of funds.

Paul S
30-07-2005, 06:42 PM
(NB I am not a lawyer)
My suggestion is to contact the South Australian Department responsible for the administration of public companies, which I think is the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs (http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/).
Registered companies (and incorporated bodies) are required to submit audited financial returns each year and company directors can be fined for failure to do so.
So either you get a clearer picture of where George put the money or the OCBA puts the squeeze on him.
BTW This is the path of action I think the ACF should persue as well.

I agree that the ACF should do something along these lines with George Howard. At the very least he needs to be immediately removed from his position as ACF Vice-President.

Bereaved
30-07-2005, 11:00 PM
Thanks to the many respondants since my last post, it is interesting to see the varieties of approaches taken.

As far as the issue of MT Buller Inc. preventing there being any financial or legal ramifications for the ACF, I'll accept that as in some way making sense. BUT...
What about the accounts for the whole thing? As I mentioned in my last post, there was to have been an ACF council meeting in the two weeks just passed.
Did the meeting happen? Does anyone know, if it did, what was decided?

And could they please tell us???

Also as far as saying goodbye to these things, is that going to be the most correct way to avoid this ever occurring again?

Does the ACF expect to receive their % of the shindig?

To sum up, Would be delighted to hear about what our national administrators have decided to do about this, if anything, a timetable for whatever form of response we are to expect, and an explanation of why in the instance of a $4000 junior development fund, we are to consider it acceptable to simply write it off?


Take Care and God Bless, Macavity; awaiting news impatiently :hmm:

ChessGuru
01-08-2005, 11:12 AM
Garvin,

Are you a member of an organisation called "Mt Buller Chess inc"?

Did you agree to become a member, did you pay an associated fee, were you aware that you were given membership?

I think you should look into this - because if GH has listed YOU as a member and perhaps on the Executive Committee for Mt Buller Chess inc then YOU are going to be held liable should anything ever get done about all this....

Something to think about? And if Garvin isn't a 'member' - then who are the members of Mt Buller Chess? Who elected GH? Who passed motions? Who was at the meetings?

WhiteElephant
01-08-2005, 01:22 PM
David,

I have been reading your recent posts here, many of which contain various allegations, and I notice that you are turning many people offside.

In just your few recent posts, you have blamed:
1) the competitors of the Vic Junior Masters for not alerting YOU, the organiser, for organisation problems which resulted in the tournament not being FIDE rated
2) GH and team for problems with Mt Buller
3) the ACF for various things.
And I seem to recall you implicating Garvin in all the Mt Buller problems but now you are giving him advice? Interesting....

You actions are devaluing the ChessKids brand and this is affecting me because I work with ChessKids and have to deal with this bad publicity you are causing. Why not post here and focus on the positive things ChessKids is doing (of which there are many) rather than all the criticism?

ChessGuru
01-08-2005, 09:44 PM
In just your few recent posts, you have blamed:
1) the competitors of the Vic Junior Masters for not alerting YOU, the organiser, for organisation problems which resulted in the tournament not being FIDE rated
2) GH and team for problems with Mt Buller
3) the ACF for various things.

You actions are devaluing the ChessKids brand and this is affecting me because I work with ChessKids and have to deal with this bad publicity you are causing. Why not post here and focus on the positive things ChessKids is doing (of which there are many) rather than all the criticism?

Mr Elephant - i have no idea who you are- but if you want to promote the Chess Kids brand to this lot of no-hopers, go for your life! I wish you the best of luck....not that i've ever seen you try? Why don't you DO rather than talk?? Are you a chess player by any chance? Go ahead- start a thread "The Positive thing Chess Kids does" i promise to log in and post there. I am not on here to promote Chess Kids, i express my personal opinions!

1) This was an unfortunate error on my part, however i don't think that ppl on this BB, nor some of the players dealt with this in an appropriate manner. I am quite content to stand by my original statements to the competitors for them to quit complaining and take some responsibility for themselves - in particular reference to complaints about prizes, entry fees etc - none of which was a problem prior to the FIDE rating issue. Absolutely they have a right to complain about the lack of FIDE rating and this has been dealt with - individually and privately I have communicated with ALL players in the event to ensure that everyone feels we have reached a satisfactory outcome.
2) I never suggested GH and his team were responsible for all the problems. I dealt with the Mt Buller management prior to GH taking over and found them difficult, at best, to deal with. I have said that ppl shouldn't be surprised that there were problems. Some things, however, quite clearly come down to GH being pretty much incompetent. Anyone with 1/2 a brain (eg. not Garvin) should attest to that - though probably not publicly. :) So I am suggesting to Garvin that he should distance himself while he has the chance....not that i really believe anyone will ever do anything about it...it will eventually be forgotten - something else will come up for ppl to talk about, or the topic will just get tired.....
3) The ACF - not really sure what you think i am BLAMING them for. But can you name 3 innovative, positive actions the ACF has taken in the past 5 years which have lead to a more active, prosperous chess nation? Hmm... OK what about Chess Victoria? No, nothing there either? My main point is that the ACF doesn't DO much...CV doesn't DO much...most chess players don't DO much - they just like to sit around crapping on. Do you know what % of the ACF budget is spent on having meetings, the purpose of which is to talk about how to generate enough money to continue to have meetings?

From what I can see the most positive chess happenings in Aus in the past 10 years have been:
a) Chess Kids (there you go....some promotion for us!) and consequential junior boom (i do believe Chess Kids can take credit for the existance of the other 5 or 6 chess businesses in Victoria and the re-invigoration of Goldy in SA - we prove it is possible so others can safely copy. So indirectly we are responsible for a hell'ofa lota new chess players.)
b) Gardiner Chess and his Qld success
c) ACT Jnr Chess (run by parents, not chess players)

I just hope that if i am rude enough to enough people then either:
a) someone will do something just to spite me
b) they'll be so mortally offended that they leave for someone else to take over and perhaps do something

So, sit back and watch me be either banned from here again, or be abusive, rude and intolerant of everyone who is stupid, lazy, incompetant or basically useless! And there are a lot them about ....
:lol:

ChessGuru
01-08-2005, 09:48 PM
I know nothing about the law in this area, but is it possible the company Mt Buller Chess Inc. has been wound up, or even gone bankrupt?
Scott

Remember, it isn't a company. It is an associatoin - ie. a collection of members democratically acting as an individual body. Unlikely to be wound up, seeing as an Incorporation requires a meeting of its 'members' in order to be wound up. If we suspect that GH isn't the ONLY member then he would have had to call a meeting to wind up ... even so, winding up an organisation doesn't absolve you of any responsibiltiy towards the actions of that while it was in operation.

DoroPhil
01-08-2005, 10:05 PM
Anyone with 1/2 a brain (eg. not Garvin) should attest to that - though probably not publicly. :)

OH MY GOD! Like, seriosly, oh my god! Did somebody just call Gray stupid ?? Come on, Garvin, show 'em what you're made of!!

WhiteElephant
01-08-2005, 10:23 PM
Mr Elephant - i have no idea who you are- but if you want to promote the Chess Kids brand to this lot of no-hopers, go for your life! I wish you the best of luck....not that i've ever seen you try? Why don't you DO rather than talk?? Are you a chess player by any chance? Go ahead- start a thread "The Positive thing Chess Kids does" i promise to log in and post there. I am not on here to promote Chess Kids, i express my personal opinions!

I am George Z - I thought you would have known as my real name is mentioned frequently here. I have to disagree with you that this forum consists of 'no-hopers', there are many people here who contribute much to developing chess in Australia. For example, Jenny, Libby, Ian Rogers, Peter Parr, Brian Jones, Amiel and MANY others.

I would be happy to start a thread on 'The Positive thing Chess Kids does' but I fear this would be seen as advertising and deleted (as some of Lee's posts were).


1) This was an unfortunate error on my part, however i don't think that ppl on this BB, nor some of the players dealt with this in an appropriate manner. I am quite content to stand by my original statements to the competitors for them to quit complaining and take some responsibility for themselves - in particular reference to complaints about prizes, entry fees etc - none of which was a problem prior to the FIDE rating issue. Absolutely they have a right to complain about the lack of FIDE rating and this has been dealt with - individually and privately I have communicated with ALL players in the event to ensure that everyone feels we have reached a satisfactory outcome.
2) I never suggested GH and his team were responsible for all the problems. I dealt with the Mt Buller management prior to GH taking over and found them difficult, at best, to deal with. I have said that ppl shouldn't be surprised that there were problems. Some things, however, quite clearly come down to GH being pretty much incompetent. Anyone with 1/2 a brain (eg. not Garvin) should attest to that - though probably not publicly. :) So I am suggesting to Garvin that he should distance himself while he has the chance....not that i really believe anyone will ever do anything about it...it will eventually be forgotten - something else will come up for ppl to talk about, or the topic will just get tired.....
3) The ACF - not really sure what you think i am BLAMING them for. But can you name 3 innovative, positive actions the ACF has taken in the past 5 years which have lead to a more active, prosperous chess nation? Hmm... OK what about Chess Victoria? No, nothing there either? My main point is that the ACF doesn't DO much...CV doesn't DO much...most chess players don't DO much - they just like to sit around crapping on. Do you know what % of the ACF budget is spent on having meetings, the purpose of which is to talk about how to generate enough money to continue to have meetings?

Thank you for addressing these honestly and sensitively


From what I can see the most positive chess happenings in Aus in the past 10 years have been:
a) Chess Kids (there you go....some promotion for us!) and consequential junior boom (i do believe Chess Kids can take credit for the existance of the other 5 or 6 chess businesses in Victoria and the re-invigoration of Goldy in SA - we prove it is possible so others can safely copy. So indirectly we are responsible for a hell'ofa lota new chess players.)
b) Gardiner Chess and his Qld success
c) ACT Jnr Chess (run by parents, not chess players)

I agree with you on all 3.


I just hope that if i am rude enough to enough people then either:
a) someone will do something just to spite me
b) they'll be so mortally offended that they leave for someone else to take over and perhaps do something

I doubt either of those is likely to happen. It might cause a general ill-will towards you, but is that what you want?

ursogr8
01-08-2005, 10:29 PM
Mr Elephant - i have no idea who you are- but if you want to promote the Chess Kids brand to this lot of no-hopers, go for your life! I wish you the best of luck....not that i've ever seen you try? Why don't you DO rather than talk?? Are you a chess player by any chance? Go ahead- start a thread "The Positive thing Chess Kids does" i promise to log in and post there. I am not on here to promote Chess Kids, i express my personal opinions!

1) This was an unfortunate error on my part, however i don't think that ppl on this BB, nor some of the players dealt with this in an appropriate manner. I am quite content to stand by my original statements to the competitors for them to quit complaining and take some responsibility for themselves - in particular reference to complaints about prizes, entry fees etc - none of which was a problem prior to the FIDE rating issue. Absolutely they have a right to complain about the lack of FIDE rating and this has been dealt with - individually and privately I have communicated with ALL players in the event to ensure that everyone feels we have reached a satisfactory outcome.
2) I never suggested GH and his team were responsible for all the problems. I dealt with the Mt Buller management prior to GH taking over and found them difficult, at best, to deal with. I have said that ppl shouldn't be surprised that there were problems. Some things, however, quite clearly come down to GH being pretty much incompetent. Anyone with 1/2 a brain (eg. not Garvin) should attest to that - though probably not publicly. :) So I am suggesting to Garvin that he should distance himself while he has the chance....not that i really believe anyone will ever do anything about it...it will eventually be forgotten - something else will come up for ppl to talk about, or the topic will just get tired.....
3) The ACF - not really sure what you think i am BLAMING them for. But can you name 3 innovative, positive actions the ACF has taken in the past 5 years which have lead to a more active, prosperous chess nation? Hmm... OK what about Chess Victoria? No, nothing there either? My main point is that the ACF doesn't DO much...CV doesn't DO much...most chess players don't DO much - they just like to sit around crapping on. Do you know what % of the ACF budget is spent on having meetings, the purpose of which is to talk about how to generate enough money to continue to have meetings?

From what I can see the most positive chess happenings in Aus in the past 10 years have been:
a) Chess Kids (there you go....some promotion for us!) and consequential junior boom (i do believe Chess Kids can take credit for the existance of the other 5 or 6 chess businesses in Victoria and the re-invigoration of Goldy in SA - we prove it is possible so others can safely copy. So indirectly we are responsible for a hell'ofa lota new chess players.)
b) Gardiner Chess and his Qld success
c) ACT Jnr Chess (run by parents, not chess players)

I just hope that if i am rude enough to enough people then either:
a) someone will do something just to spite me
b) they'll be so mortally offended that they leave for someone else to take over and perhaps do something

So, sit back and watch me be either banned from here again, or be abusive, rude and intolerant of everyone who is stupid, lazy, incompetant or basically useless! And there are a lot them about ....
:lol:

Dave

I can see I have quite a bit to learn about franchising. :confused:

I had a conversation some time back with White Elephant and he used the words CK franchisee.
So I am guessing you are the franchiser, and he is the franchisee. Usually in such relationships the public face of the relationship has a facade of harmony. It is a bit difficult to see the 'serve' you just gave him leads to harmony.
But then there were elements of his post (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=64657&postcount=193) that I thought should have been made privately.

Oh well, brightens up a quiet night and perhaps shows me the modern way of doing business.

Trevor

WhiteElephant
01-08-2005, 10:38 PM
Dave

I can see I have quite a bit to learn about franchising. :confused:

I had a conversation some time back with White Elephant and he used the words CK franchisee.
So I am guessing you are the franchiser, and he is the franchisee. Usually in such relationships the public face of the relationship has a facade of harmony. It is a bit difficult to see the 'serve' you just gave him leads to harmony.
But then there were elements of his post (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=64657&postcount=193) that I thought should have been made privately.

Oh well, brightens up a quiet night and perhaps shows me the modern way of doing business.

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

Glad I could brighten up your evening :)

The reason I raised my points publicly is because they relate to what was said on this forum, hence I thought this is the appropriate place to raise them. Also, I thought others on this forum might like to know my concerns and David's reply.

I am glad I did bing this up because I certainly learned something new from David's post.

George

Garvinator
02-08-2005, 01:58 AM
OH MY GOD! Like, seriosly, oh my god! Did somebody just call Gray stupid ?? Come on, Garvin, show 'em what you're made of!!
not the first time someone has called me stupid, wont be the last either I suspect :whistle:

That being said, I thought I had been distancing myself from the whole mt buller mess with GH since I came back from there :eek: I have also just sent GH an email saying that I am resigning from anything I could possibly have been linked with in respect to Mt Buller Chess Inc. Not sure if he will get it as i suspect I am on his block list :P

The last time I disagreed with ChessGuru on here, I got legally threatened. Therefore I wont be going down that road again.

Bereaved
02-08-2005, 02:14 AM
Hi CG, ever so curious as to who are those other Chess businesses that exist through your work with chess kids.

Would be delighted to hear this story, as I am feeling a little sleepy, and I always like being told a fairy tale to help me get a good night's rest!

Please don't leave out the gory details, too, as I am already of age.

Take care, God Bless, Macavity

Alan Shore
02-08-2005, 04:07 AM
The last time I disagreed with ChessGuru on here, I got legally threatened. Therefore I wont be going down that road again.

Only pansy crybabies who have run out of Kleenex threaten legal action for defamation for anything posted on a *gasp* internet bulletin board. :rolleyes:

antichrist
02-08-2005, 06:22 AM
not the first time someone has called me stupid, wont be the last either I suspect :whistle:

A/C
Kegless refers to me as such but he does not know what I think of him for smoking and stuffing up his body and the grog his liver.

GG
That being said, I thought I had been distancing myself from the whole mt buller mess with GH since I came back from there :eek: I have also just sent GH an email saying that I am resigning from anything I could possibly have been linked with in respect to Mt Buller Chess Inc. Not sure if he will get it as i suspect I am on his block list :P

A/C
If it is a company position it may not be as simple as that - things need to be sent to companies rego mob in Melbourne whose name I have forgotten. If an assoc. you need to go to banks and delete your signature on cheques etc., and your resignation could jeopadise the mimimum number of members required for assoc. registration and meeting quorem - so that there would be lack of quorem to accept your resignation etc. and close the place down. A catch 22 situation. Hope I am not barking up the wrong tree here. But I know you are not short of a blast when you see fit. But you can't get me for off-thread topic - just crap to use your words.

GG
The last time I disagreed with ChessGuru on here, I got legally threatened. Therefore I wont be going down that road again.

A/C
for him was it a road lined with $100 dollar notes?

Eric
02-08-2005, 07:16 AM
So, sit back and watch me . . . . be abusive, rude and intolerant of everyone who is stupid, lazy, incompetant or basically useless! And there are a lot them about ....
:lol:

This reads more like a self description mate!

PHAT
02-08-2005, 08:01 AM
Only pansy crybabies who have run out of Kleenex threaten legal action for defamation for anything posted on a *gasp* internet bulletin board. :rolleyes:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

AES
02-08-2005, 01:29 PM
Hi all,

I hadn't looked on the BB for quite some time. But when i did i was shocked to see that the CDs still hadnt been sent. So i rang George Howard about it last night. He told me that some time ago it was sent to Vice-President Gary Wastell. GH wanted to make sure it was known to all on the BB and around Australia that this is now the ACF's problem, not his. These are his words, not mine (Don't shoot the messenger!!).

I hope this helps. Sorry i couldnt make this call earlier.

Cheers,

Alex Saint

arosar
02-08-2005, 01:34 PM
GH wanted to make sure it was known to all on the BB and around Australia that this is now the ACF's problem, not his.

Pardon me sir, but isn't your Pontius Pilate an ACF vice president himself?

See all this inbreeding confuses the hec out of me. You can no longer tell who's what just by looking at them.

AR

shaun
02-08-2005, 01:49 PM
Hi all,

I hadn't looked on the BB for quite some time. But when i did i was shocked to see that the CDs still hadnt been sent. So i rang George Howard about it last night. He told me that some time ago it was sent to Vice-President Gary Wastell. GH wanted to make sure it was known to all on the BB and around Australia that this is now the ACF's problem, not his. These are his words, not mine (Don't shoot the messenger!!).

I hope this helps. Sorry i couldnt make this call earlier.

Cheers,

Alex Saint

Did he state that Gary Wastell agreed to be the person responsible for sending out the CD's? Or is he just trying to shift the job to someone else without their consent?

Garvinator
02-08-2005, 02:06 PM
Did he state that Gary Wastell agreed to be the person responsible for sending out the CD's? Or is he just trying to shift the job to someone else without their consent?
Another question could be asked. Why couldnt GH post the information on here himself instead of getting Alex to do it for him? GH has an account here and has posted here plenty of times.

ChessGuru
02-08-2005, 04:48 PM
I am George Z - I thought you would have known as my real name is mentioned frequently here. I have to disagree with you that this forum consists of 'no-hopers', there are many people here who contribute much to developing chess in Australia. For example, Jenny, Libby, Ian Rogers, Peter Parr, Brian Jones, Amiel and MANY others.


Ahh, sorry GZ, I don't read enough of the stuff here to know ppl by name. I also agree that there are many here who are 'contributers' to chess and you have named some of them...i would even go so far as to include Trevor in that list of "good-guys", even if he is a trouble 'starter'.

On that list:
a) How many are on the ACF? None.
b) How many of those 'good guys' assumed that I was calling THEM a 'stupid no-hoper'? None.

See, the good ppl - the ones with brains - mostly end up leaving the ACF and State Assn to do their own thing - help from the sidelines (or run ACT jnr chess) without having to deal with the 'no-hopers' of the chess world who dominate the committees.

Probably anyone who assumed i was referring to them as a 'no-hoper' acutally IS and I'm happy to insult them. :lol:

Any of the 'good-guys' should be smart enough to realise I wasn't refering to them and so won't take offence anyway! (You are surely in that category?)

And the stupid ones who think they are the smart ones are going to think i'm not referring to them, even when i am, and so they won't be offended either!

So i don't really think that anyone's being hurt here... :lol:

Libby
02-08-2005, 05:26 PM
Hi all,

I hadn't looked on the BB for quite some time. But when i did i was shocked to see that the CDs still hadnt been sent. So i rang George Howard about it last night. He told me that some time ago it was sent to Vice-President Gary Wastell. GH wanted to make sure it was known to all on the BB and around Australia that this is now the ACF's problem, not his. These are his words, not mine (Don't shoot the messenger!!).

I hope this helps. Sorry i couldnt make this call earlier.

Cheers,

Alex Saint

This is 100% false. Not in the sense that the list & disks may have been sent to Gary. It is my understanding this may have occurred (as a result of Gary following up George) sometime in mid-July. Or rather, George undertook to do this in mid-July but I can only guess when he may have done it.

I think it is 100% false that George wants to promote this as the ACF's responsibility now. It was, and remains, his responsibility. He collected the money, he promised the service and it remains his responsibility to follow through that the service is delivered. Even when he has managed to palm off the actual "doing" to someone else.

I hope the funds collected for the CDs will similarly be passed to the ACF (with deductions for verifiable expenses incurred to date) along with the names & disks.

It's not immediately obvious (I know) but I have been trying to temper my attacks on this subject however - tax, GST & status implications aside - it is impossible for anyone involved not to understand the requirement for financial accountability. I can't just run an ACTJCL tournament and pull a figure out of my arse (so to speak) when it comes to banking the takings. I need to account for the money received, paid out and finally banked. I am accountable to the committee and to the members. What I come up with is scrutinised by our Treasurer and an auditor. And as an Incorporated Association we must produce audited accounts.

I report my bloody $12 discrepancy for goodness sake!

If George is completely unable to finalise the accounts because we can all "get stuffed" or because he is ill or because he is too busy or because of whatever ... then send the shoeboxes full of receipts & invoices & scribbled notes on napkins to someone who can take responsibility.

This is disgraceful.

Libby
02-08-2005, 05:42 PM
Mr Cunnilingus. :ermm: :buttkick:

Mischa
02-08-2005, 09:31 PM
Libby...
about that $12 discrepancy?
:)

Bereaved
02-08-2005, 10:00 PM
Do you mean when compared with a larger discrepancy, say $4000? or even $125 (oops!!)

Take care all, and God Bless, Macavity

Kevin Bonham
03-08-2005, 01:32 AM
I have just removed several posts from this thread to offline storage because they contained or discussed accusations of illegal activity, which if not proven would be defamatory. Please see note in "moderation decisions" thread.

If such comments continue to be made the thread may have to be closed.

Libby
03-08-2005, 07:09 AM
Although I have no idea of the full circumstances of this matter, or the personal circumstances of those involved, we could have put all angst, whinging, sniping & accusations to rest had a set of accounts and some CDs been delivered to the ACF and to the "customers" in a relatively timely matter. Even by the promised May (?) date.

No-one but the most malicious of posters would have been able to "maintain the rage."

For me, it is not about accusing anyone of dishonest behaviour or misappropriation of funds - I have no idea of the financial position & arrangements of Mt Buller Inc. It's just about finishing the job properly and understanding that is is reasonable and lawful that you are expected to do so.

And finally, not understanding why anyone - all parties who are members of Mt Buller Inc - would want their reputation continually roasted over the failure to produce some simple, "close-the-book-on-the-story" paperwork?

Libby
03-08-2005, 07:11 AM
Libby...
about that $12 discrepancy?
:)

Yep - it's now part of my holiday fund :owned:

I plan to siphon another $6 or so this weekend at the under 10s - don't tell anyone!

Garvinator
03-08-2005, 01:06 PM
And finally, not understanding why anyone - all parties who are members of Mt Buller Inc - would want their reputation continually roasted over the failure to produce some simple, "close-the-book-on-the-story" paperwork?
Well from my point of view, I am not going to sign a document to the acf for financial matters that I have no idea of. George Howard signed the documents with the acf for legal responsibility and financial undertakings, not me. He is responsible for all that.

I am not going to bale him out and accept responsibility for something that I have very little accurate detail of.

Garvinator
03-08-2005, 01:06 PM
I plan to siphon another $6 or so this weekend at the under 10s - don't tell anyone!
is that taking into account of gst ;)

Mischa
03-08-2005, 02:13 PM
Don't get greedy now Libby! :)

Oepty
03-08-2005, 06:50 PM
Well from my point of view, I am not going to sign a document to the acf for financial matters that I have no idea of. George Howard signed the documents with the acf for legal responsibility and financial undertakings, not me. He is responsible for all that.

I am not going to bale him out and accept responsibility for something that I have very little accurate detail of.

Garvin. I don't think you should be held responsible for anything that has not been done since the tournaments at Mt Buller have finished, and quite possibly alot that happened before that point in time. I have a couple of questions, not meant to attack you, just to get information.
Are you aware whether the full group of tournaments at Mt Buller ran at a profit, loss or broke even? A yes or no is enough.
Did you at any stage see a complete budget for the events at Mt Buller?
Scott

cincinnatus
03-08-2005, 07:12 PM
I have just removed several posts from this thread to offline storage because they contained or discussed accusations of illegal activity, which if not proven would be defamatory.
... being an exchange between ChessGuru and me about the proper implementation of the GST, a piece from Libby a trifle less moderate than her preceding and following comments and a contribution from Freddy.

Even though I had a bit of a go at Freddy, he very generously thanked me for providing information about Mount Buller Chess Incorporated. I think it may have been my subsequent comments on this publicly available information that drew the moderator's ire.

The material is available on the Australian Business Register (www.abr.gov.au) and the Australian Securities & Investments Commision website (www.asic.gov.au).

Bill Gletsos
03-08-2005, 07:17 PM
Hi all,

I hadn't looked on the BB for quite some time. But when i did i was shocked to see that the CDs still hadnt been sent. So i rang George Howard about it last night. He told me that some time ago it was sent to Vice-President Gary Wastell. GH wanted to make sure it was known to all on the BB and around Australia that this is now the ACF's problem, not his. These are his words, not mine (Don't shoot the messenger!!).Firstly people shoould refer to Denis Jessup's post #121 in this thread. With that in mind and his hospitalisation from mid July as of the ACF Council meeting on the 18th July the CD and list were still with George. Gary Wastell as Deputy President was going to follow this up on behalf of Denis.

George did not take part in the ACF Council meeting on July 18th. I moved a motion that the ACF Council send an invoice to George for the $4000 for the Junior Development fund. This motion was passed.

On July 19th Gary managed to speak to George and informed the Council that George had agreed to send the CD and list of names to Gary so that the ACF could distribute the CD's. He also informed Gary that he intended to send a cheque with regards the junior development fund to the ACF.

As such George's comment that he sent the CD and list to Gary sometime ago was in reality sometime in the past 2 weeks.

We now just have to see what eventuates with regards the $4000 for the Junior Development fund.

Garvinator
03-08-2005, 07:23 PM
Garvin. I don't think you should be held responsible for anything that has not been done since the tournaments at Mt Buller have finished, and quite possibly alot that happened before that point in time. I have a couple of questions, not meant to attack you, just to get information.

Did you at any stage see a complete budget for the events at Mt Buller?
Scott
I dont mind answering questions about my involvement in mt buller events etc, most of the time.

To answer your questions:


Are you aware whether the full group of tournaments at Mt Buller ran at a profit, loss or broke even? A yes or no is enough.
Dont know. I have done my own rough budgets based on figures I am aware of, but I dont know of so many items that George spent money on and probably received that my figures would be highly unreliable.


Did you at any stage see a complete budget for the events at Mt Buller?

I saw the proposed budget that George tendered to the acf at the acf july council meeting. I remember in another thread saying that I thought the $4000 junior fund was in the budget, but Denis checked and said it wasnt. I went back and the junior fund wasnt in the copy of the budget I have.

That makes sense now as the budget I have was done before the acf council meeting and the junior fund was agreed at the acf council meeting.

That being said, the junior fund was a changing of how the whole total amount was to be spent. It wasnt an extra cost, just a redistribution.

I have not seen any type of budget since the tournaments finished. George and I have not communicated on any level since then.

Libby
03-08-2005, 08:40 PM
... a piece from Libby a trifle less moderate than her preceding and following comments

Did I get something deleted? I must be getting old & forgetful :doh:

Libby
03-08-2005, 08:50 PM
We now just have to see what eventuates with regards the $4000 for the Junior Development fund.

And the accounts?

Can we come up with some rules or procedures to safeguard against these issues in future? Someone doesn't have to be dishonest, only disorganised and we're right back in this boat again.
I don't think it is unreasonable, burdensome or a discouragement to bids/volunteers to require timely financial reporting.

Garvinator
03-08-2005, 08:54 PM
And the accounts?

Can we come up with some rules or procedures to safeguard against these issues in future? Someone doesn't have to be dishonest, only disorganised and we're right back in this boat again.
I don't think it is unreasonable, burdensome or a discouragement to bids/volunteers to require timely financial reporting.
there are already all this stuff in place, the point is what happens when someone decides afterwards not to do it. Nothing much by the sounds of it.

auriga
03-08-2005, 09:03 PM
And the accounts?

Can we come up with some rules or procedures to safeguard against these issues in future? Someone doesn't have to be dishonest, only disorganised and we're right back in this boat again.
I don't think it is unreasonable, burdensome or a discouragement to bids/volunteers to require timely financial reporting.

i think someone mentioned earlier,
but when the decision is made who (what team) runs the event that year
there should be a 'due dilligence' step where someone indepedant
looks at the bid and sees whether it stacks up
ie. the venue is adequate, sponsorship secured, organisers capable both chess running and financial side, etc.

i guess this should be written into the bidding cycle so people don't forget to do it.

the proviso here though is that the person running the event isn't the
the acf president (or council member). because mt buller was taken over late in the piece this is what ended up happening.

Kevin Bonham
03-08-2005, 10:45 PM
Even though I had a bit of a go at Freddy, he very generously thanked me for providing information about Mount Buller Chess Incorporated. I think it may have been my subsequent comments on this publicly available information that drew the moderator's ire.

This speculation is complete nonsense. I would suggest that people send me a PM rather than firing off in public with nonsense like this.

Contrary to your claims:

(i) no post by Libby was removed.

(ii) nothing that you wrote drew any ire whatsoever - rather one of your posts was removed solely because it quoted material by another poster that I had decided needed to be removed.

(iii) in fact, all the material removed (except for one one-liner removed by mistake and off-topic so not really worth the effort to restore) was either written by one poster whose stuff created a possible legal risk, or else quoted the possibly legally risky material by that poster.

cincinnatus
03-08-2005, 10:54 PM
And the accounts?

Can we come up with some rules or procedures to safeguard against these issues in future? Someone doesn't have to be dishonest, only disorganised and we're right back in this boat again.
I don't think it is unreasonable, burdensome or a discouragement to bids/volunteers to require timely financial reporting.

there are already all this stuff in place ...
True. All detailed in the ACF's By-laws for ACF tournaments on the ACF website (http://www.auschess.org.au/constitution/). These guidelines have evolved in response to episodes in previous years, a few of which I outlined in earlier posts. For Mt. Buller, they simply weren't followed, and those of us who were pointing this out and wondering why that should be so back in mid-2004 were shouted down and roundly abused by the ACF Council, which is now sorting out the mess that a prudent Council could have avoided by following its own statutes.

Kevin Bonham
03-08-2005, 11:46 PM
True. All detailed in the ACF's By-laws for ACF tournaments on the ACF website (http://www.auschess.org.au/constitution/). These guidelines have evolved in response to episodes in previous years, a few of which I outlined in earlier posts. For Mt. Buller, they simply weren't followed, and those of us who were pointing this out and wondering why that should be so back in mid-2004 were shouted down and roundly abused by the ACF Council, which is now sorting out the mess that a prudent Council could have avoided by following its own statutes.

Huh? I don't recall the ACF Council bothering to dignify any of these sorts of comments with a reply. Individual councillors such as Bill and I may well have done so.

Also my memory is that all your claims about by-law breaches were completely disproven, but if you can find any thread on which you think they were not, feel free to point it out.

cincinnatus
04-08-2005, 12:16 AM
... shouted down and roundly abused by the ACF Council ...
OK, Kevin, I should have said "certain ACF Councillors", namely you and Bill.

Again, there is no difficulty showing by-law breaches, but you repeatedly claimed that by-laws were not binding so the Council was entitled to ignore them.

Here's ONE. In the By-laws for ACF Tournaments, Article 23 reads:

a. Accounting Standards

A person shall be appointed by the sponsoring State Association to be responsible for the accurate keeping of all accounting records associated with the tournament. This person shall prepare an audited financial report at the end of the tournament for presentation to the ACF.

b. Tournament Budget

A detailed tournament budget must be prepared and submitted to the ACF prior to the tournament.

b. Tournament Cheque Account

The ACF may require ...

... and what would have been prudent was dismissed because the by-laws presented it as an option.

The main point of debate was how accurately the ACF Consitution was being followed, especially in the matter of allowing the Championships to be run by an "official non-affiliate". Even the phrasing of the passage I quoted above suggests that there was no expectation that the Australian Championships would be run by an entity that didn't even have ties to a State Association.

Frankly, I think my counsel to observe the By-laws more judiciously would have saved a lot of pain.

Kevin Bonham
04-08-2005, 03:45 AM
This has all been done to death in the debate which starts with your post #269 on this thread (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=965&page=18&pp=15) and continues on and off at least up to my post #333 of same.

Oepty
04-08-2005, 06:36 PM
I dont mind answering questions about my involvement in mt buller events etc, most of the time.

To answer your questions:


Dont know. I have done my own rough budgets based on figures I am aware of, but I dont know of so many items that George spent money on and probably received that my figures would be highly unreliable.



I saw the proposed budget that George tendered to the acf at the acf july council meeting. I remember in another thread saying that I thought the $4000 junior fund was in the budget, but Denis checked and said it wasnt. I went back and the junior fund wasnt in the copy of the budget I have.

That makes sense now as the budget I have was done before the acf council meeting and the junior fund was agreed at the acf council meeting.

That being said, the junior fund was a changing of how the whole total amount was to be spent. It wasnt an extra cost, just a redistribution.

I have not seen any type of budget since the tournaments finished. George and I have not communicated on any level since then.

Thankyou for your reply. One more question. Were you, or to your knowledge were any other of the organisers, consulted by George to find out whether any of you agreed/disagreed to the change in the junior prize fund and the redirection of the $4000 to a junior development fund?
Scott

Garvinator
05-08-2005, 12:01 AM
Thankyou for your reply. One more question. Were you, or to your knowledge were any other of the organisers, consulted by George to find out whether any of you agreed/disagreed to the change in the junior prize fund and the redirection of the $4000 to a junior development fund?
Scott
Not to my knowledge, but I cant speak for the rest of the organisers. From my memory, the $4000 redistribution of funds decision was made at the acf 2004 july council meeting because some members of the the council meeting believed that the junior prize fund was too high and unnecessary.

I never considered whether I agreed with the change or not because it was a decision I didnt have to make. I was never part of the decision making process on this matter. It was a decision taken by GH and the acf council members at that meeting.

cincinnatus
05-08-2005, 02:41 PM
With all due respect to one af Australia's finest chess administrators:

Has the ACF Council chosen to implement the By-laws for ACF Tournaments' Article 23, Tournament Cheque Account and Article 24, Organising Committee clauses for the 2006 Australian Championships?

Oepty
05-08-2005, 05:04 PM
Firstly people shoould refer to Denis Jessup's post #121 in this thread. With that in mind and his hospitalisation from mid July as of the ACF Council meeting on the 18th July the CD and list were still with George. Gary Wastell as Deputy President was going to follow this up on behalf of Denis.

George did not take part in the ACF Council meeting on July 18th. I moved a motion that the ACF Council send an invoice to George for the $4000 for the Junior Development fund. This motion was passed.

On July 19th Gary managed to speak to George and informed the Council that George had agreed to send the CD and list of names to Gary so that the ACF could distribute the CD's. He also informed Gary that he intended to send a cheque with regards the junior development fund to the ACF.

As such George's comment that he sent the CD and list to Gary sometime ago was in reality sometime in the past 2 weeks.

We now just have to see what eventuates with regards the $4000 for the Junior Development fund.

Bill, Was the invoice made out to George personally or to Mt Buller Chess Inc?
Scott

Alan Shore
05-08-2005, 07:00 PM
With all due respect to one af Australia's finest chess administrators:

Has the ACF Council chosen to implement the By-laws for ACF Tournaments' Article 23, Tournament Cheque Account and Article 24, Organising Committee clauses for the 2006 Australian Championships?

And what are you implying?

Libby
07-08-2005, 07:04 PM
Don't get greedy now Libby! :)
:oops: Actual discrepancy $4.95 - one should be very careful of making such jokes - an investigation is surely to be launched - perhaps I can even get banned! :oops:

Garvinator
07-08-2005, 07:23 PM
:oops: Actual discrepancy $4.95 - one should be very careful of making such jokes - an investigation is surely to be launched - perhaps I can even get banned! :oops:
if you want to be banned, then it wont happen :whistle:

Libby
07-08-2005, 08:05 PM
if you want to be banned, then it wont happen :whistle:

It seems to me that if no-one was getting banned there'd be very little talked about on the board ... :whistle: :whistle:

Thunderspirit
08-08-2005, 04:54 PM
While it isn't the ACF laibility, it should as a gesture of good will paying back the money to the people who haven't recieved their CD...

Right it off, and forget about it...

Trent Parker
09-08-2005, 11:12 AM
While it isn't the ACF laibility, it should as a gesture of good will paying back the money to the people who haven't recieved their CD...

Right it off, and forget about it...

I don't want my money back. I want my CD or paper prints of the Bulletins.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

klyall
09-08-2005, 06:54 PM
I don't want my money back. I want my CD or paper prints of the Bulletins.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

So does my son. It was a month's pocket money! :evil:

antichrist
09-08-2005, 07:07 PM
So does my son. It was a month's pocket money! :evil:

And a few people voted my nodding off at a meeting a worse crime that the missing CDs.

Trent Parker
09-08-2005, 07:55 PM
And a few people voted my nodding off at a meeting a worse crime that the missing CDs.

Can you quit talking about your damn nodding off in threads like this? It gets annoying..... Please?

Bereaved
09-08-2005, 11:46 PM
I will call Gary Wastell tomorrow and ask about the CD's. When he does give me an answer, of whatever fashion I will relay it here,

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Isn't it funny that the man we selected to run our biggest annual event can't do what every kid can do in their bedroom at home, and Burn a CD.
If he had burnt one a day since buller, he would have a stockpile of well over 100 CD's; given that it takes about an hour tops even on the slowest machine to burn a CD, he should have himself been able to preduce a lot more!!
M,

Libby
10-08-2005, 11:29 AM
While it isn't the ACF laibility, it should as a gesture of good will paying back the money to the people who haven't recieved their CD...

Right it off, and forget about it...

I can't totally agree with you here Lee.

In terms of goodwill, if I was a business person who had subcontracted a job, which had not been delivered, I may well make a decision to meet that shortfall myself rather than suffer a backlash through my name appearing in constant negative publicity.

However, I expect, as a businessperson, I would be attempting to take all available steps to ensure I was not out-of-pocket, in the final analysis, for something that was not my fault.

And in the end, why should it be written off? Yes, you want people to "get over it." But you also can't set a precedent where it's hunky-dory to go around making bids for events far above your capacity to deliver; promising services and not providing them; not meeting basic rules for financial accountability; and say "shrug" - it's OK, that's a lesson learned for next time. When apparently - it's not.

Bereaved
11-08-2005, 05:14 PM
Hello Everyone,

I spoke to Gary Wastell at Dandenong Chess club last night, being the 10/08/05
and he indicated to me that the CD's should be distributed in two weeks time which I guess means that people should start checking their mailboxes about the 24th August. I would be delighted to hear from anyone who receives their CD, as I forgot to qualify what was on the CD or the provision of printed bulletins,

Take care and God Bless, everybody, Macavity

Bereaved
21-08-2005, 12:56 AM
Hello, Everyone,
Since my last post, I have spoken to Gary Wastell a couple of times.

He suggested that he has the disc and that he is unable to open many of the files thereon, and has asked Andrew Saint to send them to him again. He said that he was unaware of any requirement to provide printouts of the bulletins.

He did not sound like a very optimistic man in this issue,

More trouble brewing...

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Garvinator
21-08-2005, 02:02 AM
Hello, Everyone,
Since my last post, I have spoken to Gary Wastell a couple of times.

He suggested that he has the disc and that he is unable to open many of the files thereon, and has asked Andrew Saint to send them to him again. This issue raises its head again :(

In the early days of the australian open, the mansfield printing company that was doing our bulletin printing was having major problems opening the files that Andrew was sending them.


He said that he was unaware of any requirement to provide printouts of the bulletins. I thought what was going to happen is that the file from each days bulletin is put on the cd with the games etc and sent to each person who ordered the cd. If the person wants to print them out, then they can from the cd.

I didnt think Gary would have any requirement to provide printouts of the bulletins.

antichrist
21-08-2005, 08:53 AM
These CDs are entering the legend of the Holy Grail.