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Brian_Jones
03-06-2005, 01:08 PM
Newsletter 320 dated 1 June 2005 is shorter than usual (six pages).

In my view it is better this way without all the overseas news (maybe this could be a seperate newsletter PB?).

I prefer a shorter document that concentrates on Australian matters.

Perhaps more details on the 2005 Grand Prix or the forthcoming Australian Championships in Brisbane?

What do others think?

pax
03-06-2005, 03:23 PM
Personally, I read international news elsewhere (Chessbase, TWIC). However I don't see a problem including it in the newsletter. It's easy to ignore, being at the end of the newsletter, and I'm sure many people read it regularly.

I was highly surprised to see the 2004 Grand Prix results relegated to an external link.

How about listing the winners and congratulating them? Would that be drawing too much attention to the lateness of the announcement?

Paul S
03-06-2005, 04:27 PM
Newsletter 320 dated 1 June 2005 is shorter than usual (six pages).

In my view it is better this way without all the overseas news (maybe this could be a seperate newsletter PB?).

I prefer a shorter document that concentrates on Australian matters.

Perhaps more details on the 2005 Grand Prix or the forthcoming Australian Championships in Brisbane?

What do others think?

I agree with Brian. After all, isn't it supposed to be an Australian Chess federation Newsletter?

Also, all these games (or perhaps more precisely the postional diagrams that appear in them) in the newsletter are a waste of space. When I receive the ACF Newsletter, I scroll down it and when I get to all the chess board diagrams, my computer more or less locks up (and comes up with things in the chessboard such as "WP" and "WR" etc on the chessboard)! When I get to that part of the Newsletter I have to "escape" and delete the ACF newsletter from my email as a result! As a result, I have been inclined in recent weeks to send Paul B an email asking him to remove me from the list of ACF Bulletin subscribers (but like a lot of other things, its something I have just not bothered to get around to doing).

Still, at the end of the day, Paul B is doing the work of the newsletter, so he is entitled to put in what he likes!

As for the 2005 GP, I haven't seen anything in the Newsletter about it (although that may well be due to info about the 2005 GP being placed after all those endless positional board diagrams - by which time my computer more or less "locks up" and I have to delete the ACF Newsletter). BTW, as a matter of interest, what are the progress scores in the 2005 GP? Did I get any GP points from the Doeberl?

Trent Parker
03-06-2005, 07:51 PM
... And if there are games in the newsletter. It would be better if they were only aussie games....

Lucena
04-06-2005, 01:03 PM
I personally find the international stuff highly interesting and informative. The games are always very well selected. I suspect the reason there is not a huge deal of attention paid to the GP and Aus champs is that the situation has not clarified. Perhaps Paulb would like to post something here to discuss this issue further, would be interesting.

firegoat7
04-06-2005, 01:58 PM
Hi,

Good points in this thread. I always thought you can't grow your local product if you constantly believe it is 2nd rate compared to other countries. Without wanting to jump on the nationalist bandwagon to much, it would be good to see Oz chess focussing on Oz chess.

Cheers Fg7

pax
04-06-2005, 02:10 PM
Actually, I reckon Paul is doing such a good job with the bulletin that I am totally happy for him to continue deciding it's content.

Remember that keeping Australian chess players interested in what is happening internationally is an important part of keeping them interested in playing locally.

firegoat7
09-06-2005, 10:54 AM
In my view it is better this way without all the overseas news (maybe this could be a seperate newsletter PB?).

I prefer a shorter document that concentrates on Australian matters.

Perhaps more details on the 2005 Grand Prix or the forthcoming Australian Championships in Brisbane?

What do others think?

Brians document pretty much sums up my position on Australian chess. Of course after PPs post, his interest in the 2005 Grand Prix is seen in a new light. :naughty:


Anyway, having just received the latest ACF newsletter, I thought to myself, what a load of codswallop.

Sure, we had a moving piece from Solomon about the death of a recent chessplayer, but that was it.

The rest of the newsletter was filled with ads for upcoming Oz tournaments, wacky International stories and overseas chess games.
Not one Australian chess game was published

The newsletter needs to lift its game, and I don't give a damn if it is a voluntary one man show....maybe this is the problem :hmm:

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
09-06-2005, 11:06 AM
I think the quality of the game should ultimately determine if the game is published.

Local players should send their games in or have someone else (if editor too busy) to assess them.

We assume that games already published elsewhere are therefore worthy therefore taking some burden off the ACF editor.

There is nothing worse then having gone through a game and learning nothing, or nothing spectacular to admire. A waste of time.

firegoat7
09-06-2005, 11:20 AM
I think the quality of the game should ultimately determine if the game is published.

I could not disagree more.

I see no problem in publishing even a junior chess league game...what is important is the drama, the news, the show, the battles, the tension , the excitement, the misery, the hype, the tragedy, the comical, the shameful, the spiteful, the victories, the losers, the rivalry, the injustice, the beautiful and the recognition etc etc.

Australian chess needs to tell stories!! We live in a society in which entertainment is important. What we don't need in Oz chess is some in depth aticulation about move 17 in the crapovsky defence in which fritz refutes all lines with 3 pages of analysis. Forget about the instrumental approach to chess information...it has its place, but its nothing compared to a good story.

For goodness sake show us some stories anyone would think that chess was hardly played in Australia.

Cheers Fg7

P.S Cream always rises to the top...quality always gets its moment AC.

antichrist
09-06-2005, 11:52 AM
The best stories I have seen recently have been in those nodding off threads, they should be in the ACF bulletin.

My earlier post was based on after going through that game between Lane and Rogers at some biz OZ comp I felt I had been watching Big Brother or something. It was the first local game I had gone through in ages.

Whereas went through one game yesterday with your mate out of a book and I would say we were both very satisfied.

But you are correct. 2 SECs ago there was an excellent game between Agulto and forget who, tension and everything, then blundering due to pressure with no blood spilt.

Ian Rout
09-06-2005, 12:32 PM
I don't think the ACF Bulletin is intended to be an on-line magazine.

I see it as a source of news and the games at the end are just padding. Or people who see nothing in the news section to interest them may at least look at the games. To some extent the Bulletin could already be seen as being at the detriment of the ACF web site which often doesn't seem to have readily accessible up to date news, except by looking through the archive of the bulletins.

I don't think it would be productive for Paul to set up a local games section. This would involve him in considerable effort in sourcing games from numerous areas and even if they are submitted to him he needs to choose interesting games and vet them for obvious refutations, then mark them up - and of course some recalcitrants, notwithstanding that it's 2005, would send them as text rather than PGN.

If there is really a demand for on-line local games (no doubt of itself a good thing), a couple of suggestions

a) fg volunteers as newsletter games editor; and/or

b) Set up a thread (or a new one each month) on Chesschat for posting local games, with some rules (must be in PGN using viewer, comments by other users in a different thread, whole games not just position, games must include basic data like names,events etc) which the newsletter games editor could purloin games from, or just for people to look at.

pax
09-06-2005, 01:11 PM
Anyway, having just received the latest ACF newsletter, I thought to myself, what a load of codswallop.

You know it's just this sort of unnecessary and unwarranted bashing of volunteers in Australian Chess that makes those volunteers give it up and do something else where they'll get a bit of credit.

There were no major Australian tournaments or even weekenders in the last week as far as I know. If anyone wanted to submit a good game from a club event they would be most welcome to do so, and I'm sure such submitted games would be published.

FG, if you want to see some Aussie games in there (in quiet weeks when there are no major events on) - why don't you find some and submit them instead of whinging?

Lucena
09-06-2005, 01:19 PM
You know it's just this sort of unnecessary and unwarranted bashing of volunteers in Australian Chess that makes those volunteers give it up and do something else where they'll get a bit of credit.

There were no major Australian tournaments or even weekenders in the last week as far as I know. If anyone wanted to submit a good game from a club event they would be most welcome to do so, and I'm sure such submitted games would be published.

FG, if you want to see some Aussie games in there (in quiet weeks when there are no major events on) - why don't you find some and submit them instead of whinging?


...If there is really a demand for on-line local games (no doubt of itself a good thing), a couple of suggestions

a) fg volunteers as newsletter games editor; and/or

b) Set up a thread (or a new one each month) on Chesschat for posting local games, with some rules (must be in PGN using viewer, comments by other users in a different thread, whole games not just position, games must include basic data like names,events etc) which the newsletter games editor could purloin games from, or just for people to look at.

Hear, hear!

WhiteElephant
09-06-2005, 02:18 PM
I could not disagree more.

I see no problem in publishing even a junior chess league game...what is important is the drama, the news, the show, the battles, the tension , the excitement, the misery, the hype, the tragedy, the comical, the shameful, the spiteful, the victories, the losers, the rivalry, the injustice, the beautiful and the recognition etc etc.

Australian chess needs to tell stories!! We live in a society in which entertainment is important. What we don't need in Oz chess is some in depth aticulation about move 17 in the crapovsky defence in which fritz refutes all lines with 3 pages of analysis. Forget about the instrumental approach to chess information...it has its place, but its nothing compared to a good story.

For goodness sake show us some stories anyone would think that chess was hardly played in Australia.

Cheers Fg7

P.S Cream always rises to the top...quality always gets its moment AC.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Exactly! Chess needs to be brought into the mainstream and the way to do that is change the perception that chessplayers are a bunch of funny old men with beards sitting around in gentleman's clubs smoking cigars.

Personally the only GM games I find interesting are ones with blunders or brilliant sacrifices. The positional stuff bores me to death.

I take the same approach when coaching juniors. You start drilling openings and half the class will drop out. Kids are much more interested in a good yarn, like all those ones about Capablanca, Morphy etc. If you can make someone interested in chess, they will be more proactive and will learn a lot more than if you bore tham with theory. I even told one group of kids the story of Firegoat at Doeberl. They loved it, you're their new hero, mate. :cool:

Bill Gletsos
09-06-2005, 02:38 PM
I even told one group of kids the story of Firegoat at Doeberl. They loved it, you're their new hero, mate. :cool:Let us hope they dont try to emulate it in years to come. :whistle:

firegoat7
09-06-2005, 02:42 PM
You know it's just this sort of unnecessary and unwarranted bashing of volunteers in Australian Chess that makes those volunteers give it up and do something else where they'll get a bit of credit.


Pax,

Your new found conservativeness is most bothersome. Lets settle one thing here. If your a volunteer, that does not mean that your protected from criticism.

In fact the opposite is probably true. Criticism is a good thing, it can often be a positive stimulus for change. Now I like Paul. He is a top person and I do respect the fact that he produces a bulletin, but personally I find those ACF newsletters boring. I am certainly entitled to express my subjective opinion. 'Unnecessary'- criticsim is necessary. 'unwarranted'- plurality of opinion is always warranted in democracies. 'bashing'- I don't think so, a very silly claim.


There were no major Australian tournaments or even weekenders in the last week as far as I know. If anyone wanted to submit a good game from a club event they would be most welcome to do so, and I'm sure such submitted games would be published.

Really? Well the Vic open was starting next week...there was no historical story on that. MCC city open had some fantastic games, where were they?
A fide rated tournament has finished or is still going at Box Hill where is that?
Victorian Interschool is in chaos, where is that?

Furthermore, I find this policy annoying. Individuals please submit games! What sort of a strategy is that? How about ACF and State associations developing relationships with clubs to promote its own product...Oh yeah I forgot that relationship is always after the event, in an economical one way form "Hello, organiser where is our rating money, goodbye".



FG, if you want to see some Aussie games in there (in quiet weeks when there are no major events on) - why don't you find some and submit them instead of whinging?
Games have been submitted in the past, when asked for and haven't been published. I am hardly going to make an effort to submit some more and go to the effort of writing a story, when I have to compete with such wonderful newspieces as 3 man chess in Russia. What a joke.

Cheers FG7

WhiteElephant
09-06-2005, 02:49 PM
Let us hope they dont try to emulate it in years to come. :whistle:

Then there's the one about Capablanca throwing his opponent from a 2nd story window....

Lucena
09-06-2005, 04:12 PM
Kids are much more interested in a good yarn, like all those ones about Capablanca, Morphy etc. If you can make someone interested in chess, they will be more proactive and will learn a lot more than if you bore tham with theory. I even told one group of kids the story of Firegoat at Doeberl. They loved it, you're their new hero, mate. :cool:

Yeah that'll really raise the profile of chess...One can only imagine what the parents will think? :uhoh:

Lucena
09-06-2005, 04:22 PM
Then there's the one about Capablanca throwing his opponent from a 2nd story window....

I believe that is usually attributed to Blackburne, not Capablanca.

Denis_Jessop
09-06-2005, 05:10 PM
The thing about the ACF newsletter is that, like most ACF ventures, it is done by a volunteer. Overseas chess news is reasonably accessible on the web. Local (Australian) news and games are not. If Paul is to include the latter, plus debate about chess in Australia, the Australian chess community will have to weigh in and help him by supplying the info. It is both unfair and impractical to expect
Paul to chase Australian news all over the country when chess administrators could easily supply it to him. Already this is done by some people but mostly from NSW and Queensland, I think.

DJ

PHAT
09-06-2005, 05:11 PM
The nick name of a local school is Berserkley High (a corruption of its original name). True to form, last week the girls' touch footy team started an all in brawl that saw the opposition busselled onto the bus for protection. Not to be out done by the girls, the number one and two chess players went the knuckle after a swindle and a jibe. I wasn't sure what to feel. Good to see such passion, bad to smash up a team mate, good to see chess players can be normal young blokes rather than pillows, was bad to see all that blood.

PHAT
09-06-2005, 05:24 PM
The thing about the ACF newsletter is that, like most ACF ventures, it is done by a volunteer. Overseas chess news is reasonably accessible on the web. Local (Australian) news and games are not. If Paul is to include the latter, plus debate about chess in Australia, the Australian chess community will have to weigh in and help him by supplying the info. It is both unfair and impractical to expect
Paul to chase Australian news all over the country when chess administrators could easily supply it to him. Already this is done by some people but mostly from NSW and Queensland, I think.

DJ

There is another possible problem. "Australian Chess" Vs "ACF News Bulletin. It is all well and good to say they are different media and with different focii. However, there is an overlap. As such I suggest that PaulB and Jones get to gether and try to design the contents of each so that they complement each other by specialising rather than competing.

Question: Could the Bulletin "buy into" the mag and the mag "buy into" the Bulletin. Such an arrangement might keep both parties cooperating for the best over all outcome.

Rincewind
09-06-2005, 05:34 PM
The nick name of a local school is Berserkley High (a corruption of its original name). True to form, ... the number one and two chess players went the knuckle after a swindle and a jibe. I wasn't sure what to feel. Good to see such passion, bad to smash up a team mate, good to see chess players can be normal young blokes rather than pillows, was bad to see all that blood.

Physical violence in any sport is never a good thing to see. As an ex-student I think Berkeley's former reputation was a little unwarranted and was certainly no worse than a number of other schools in similar socio-economic communities. I would assume that since becoming a sports selective school that reputation would be somewhat diminished. Maybe not for long...

PHAT
09-06-2005, 05:55 PM
Physical violence in any sport is never a good thing to see.
That would make boxing pretty lame. And thugby would be more of a yawn than it already is.


As an ex-student I think Berkeley's former reputation was a little unwarranted and was certainly no worse than a number of other schools in similar socio-economic communities.
True


I would assume that since becoming a sports selective school that reputation would be somewhat diminished. Maybe not for long...

Actually your old school has nothing to worry about. The spot light now points at Corrimal High, now known as Criminal High for its selectivity. :eek:

WhiteElephant
09-06-2005, 05:57 PM
Yeah that'll really raise the profile of chess...One can only imagine what the parents will think? :uhoh:

You sound like one of those types that knows every Sicilian line 20 moves deep. Am I right or am I right! :owned:

Rincewind
09-06-2005, 05:59 PM
That would make boxing pretty lame. And thugby would be more of a yawn than it already is.

I don't consider physical contact to the extent permitted by the code in question to be classified as violence.

firegoat7
09-06-2005, 09:52 PM
The thing about the ACF newsletter is that, like most ACF ventures, it is done by a volunteer. Overseas chess news is reasonably accessible on the web. Local (Australian) news and games are not. If Paul is to include the latter, plus debate about chess in Australia, the Australian chess community will have to weigh in and help him by supplying the info. It is both unfair and impractical to expect
Paul to chase Australian news all over the country when chess administrators could easily supply it to him. Already this is done by some people but mostly from NSW and Queensland, I think.

DJ

This really is the same as Pax's post, it paints a picture of individual responsibility for something that people have never even been asked to do.

Let me refute it like this.

Situation A:
The normal situation in a society is for you to knock on somebodies door, bring around maybe a bottle of wine and sit down and have a nice, polite dinner with friends.

Situation B:
People don't tend to rock up with some wine and demand that their hosts cook for them do they?

Now for situation A to occur, you are normally invited. Somebody has a conversation and it is agreed that a dinner party will occur.

So lets put two and two together. The ACF creates a bulletin, the content is decided by the editor. The general public then criticise the content as do every other civil discourse on art- they say whether they like it or not...a completely normal situation.

If the editor wants things to change, he or she organises personal relationships. Paul does not have to produce that bulletin by himself. But if he wants collective input then he has to establish genuine relationships with others. As a Starter (like the pun), may I suggest it wouldn't be a bad idea to email or phone Box Hill chess club maybe get them to commit to a once a month information exchange...like wise you could do the same with MCC.

I mean really is it that hard? or maybe the ACF prefers individual control?

Get the NETWORKING going DJ, the goodwill is there.

Cheers FG7

antichrist
09-06-2005, 10:25 PM
about seeing Aussie games, I don't know what it is like for the rest of Australia but in the Sydney scene with so many good players one can get many doses of good games by perving on boards 1 and 2. It is important that such boards have sufficient space around them for spectators - and that time increment is not used.

PHAT
09-06-2005, 10:33 PM
I don't consider physical contact to the extent permitted by the code in question to be classified as violence.

What about the physical contact to the extent not permitted. There is plenty of that. Perhaps your years at Berserkley has harden you to footy violence more than you think ;)

jenni
10-06-2005, 09:14 AM
I even told one group of kids the story of Firegoat at Doeberl. They loved it, you're their new hero, mate. :cool:

Well done :) Just what we need from a coach. Fantastic instilling of a decent code of behaviour and ethics in our next generation. Perhaps we should try and see if we can rival soccer crowds in our behaviour model?

Exerpt from the code of ethics for coaches as part of NCAS accreditation.

"Display control, respect, dignity and professionalism to all involved with the sport – this includes opponents, coaches, officials, administrators, the media, parents and spectators.

Encourage your athletes to demonstrate the same qualities "

Garvinator
10-06-2005, 10:11 AM
Perhaps we should try and see if we can rival soccer crowds in our behaviour model?

crawl before we can walk Jenni ;) we need to get world wide support like football has before we can even think of encouraging sectarian violence ;) :lol: :whistle:

Libby
10-06-2005, 10:26 AM
I prepare the ACTJCL Bulletin. If people want material included, they are welcome to send it to me - and do.

When I am able, and have the time and opportunity, I will source other items of interest from the ACF Bulletin, here, NSWCA etc etc.

I try to personalise the writing up of our events and the achievements of our players. However, criticisms include the length of the bulletin (too long and I can't be bothered going through the whole lot), content (why did you leave out x or y or I thought you didn't place sufficient emphasis on the achievements of blah blah blah) and size (include pictures, graphics, formatting etc and it is blocked or slow or takes up too much of the mailbox).

It's just so easy to please all the people all the time isn't it? Actually - it's just easier to throw stones.

I think the criticisms here of the ACF bulletin are unwarranted unless there are teams of people out there submitting material and having it ignored.

I do read reports of Aussie events in the ACF Bulletin. Some are even accompanied by anecdotes, analysis etc. It seems to me they are only submitted by one or two organisers/arbiters or a whole lot of others are getting censored out?

We all want chess to be interesting, to have a good profile and to lose the stereotype of geeky, pathetic game played by crusty old Europeans or chinese prodigies.

Acts of violence certainly make the papers but so do unusual or "cute" angles like young children, girls, international events or (heaven forbid) a woman winning the Aus Open (lots of work done on that publicity opportunity!)

It does however, require getting off your bum and doing something about your reputation. Because, as an outsider to chess, I'm afraid you are all too capable of fitting right into your own stereotype. :hand:

arosar
10-06-2005, 11:03 AM
Actually, for a time there was an email newsletter, edited by PB, that actually had a full team. I wonder if he still has the links to those old ones.

AR

firegoat7
10-06-2005, 11:32 AM
To Libby and others,

Here is my response to your individual responsibility.

Honestly who is responsible for the communication between the clubs and the ACF? Why do you people always insist that it is up to individuals? How hard is it really to compile a list like this? Its not that difficult to make sure that you have a live email addresses with possibly back up ones. Its not that hard to send out a stock standard email to the club officials once or twice a month and ask for submissions for the ACF bulletins. Its not that difficult to improve the communication in Australian chess.

It is a matter of simple structural reform at the expense of inefficiency.

Box Hill- webmaster@boxhillchess.org
MCC- bjordan@vicnet.net.au
Ballarat patrickcook1@hotmail.com

Hakoah vfeldman@bigpond.net.au
St George cnikolaou@quantas.com.au
Wollongong mazzieri@swiftdsl.com.au

Brisbane byronpa@hotmail.com
Gardiner chess info@gardinerchess.com
Redcliffe markcstokes@hotmail.com

So who’s responsibility would this be? The ACFs? The States? Or the clubs?

Cheers Fg7
P.S Communication is a two way street.

Libby
10-06-2005, 11:40 AM
To Libby and others,

Here is my response to your individual responsibility.

So who’s responsibility would this be? The ACFs? The States? Or the clubs?

Cheers Fg7
P.S Communication is a two way street.

Guess what? I send out emails quite often. The response i receive from many people is that they receive so many emails they hardly bother to read them.

I see emails go out to clubs or delegates etc asking for input on ideas. To vote on particular issues. To request assistance. Many generate little or no response.

How hard is it - when the ACF Bulletin is issued on a regular basis, to email the editor with your contribution whenever you have it ready? Why does that person need to send out a generic email to everyone and ask them to do it?

In fact, to avoid duplication of time and effort, it could even just be a link to the information as it already appears on your own website - which you keep up to date with all the exciting news and views from your own club. That way the Bulletin might include a brief line or two about the activity or event, major prizewinners etc and provide you with a link to the Club or State website where you can see pictures and a write-up and the interesting and amusing anecdotes that give the event some actual personality?

Whose responsibility is it? I don't really give a stuff. If I wanted to promote my event or activity I would expect to make that effort myself.

firegoat7
10-06-2005, 12:03 PM
Guess what? I send out emails quite often. The response i receive from many people is that they receive so many emails they hardly bother to read them.

fair enough




I see emails go out to clubs or delegates etc asking for input on ideas. To vote on particular issues. To request assistance. Many generate little or no response.



Interesting. How do you approach these issues are they from centralised positions of authority ie vertical or are they along the lines of developing relationships ie horizontal? In other words, is the communication based on equality or authority?

Look I sorta sympathise with you here.

But I will give you an idea of how it works at our club. We basically ignore everything ChessVictoria sends to us. This is generally because all communication is along the lines of "we want this from MCC now', there is no talking, there is no Hi, hows it going? There is no input on any decision making, and as such we feel alienated from the process. Because of this perception we ignore the good with the bad. There is no relationship, everything is order-do-blame. Its not the way to build an organisation.




How hard is it - when the ACF Bulletin is issued on a regular basis, to email the editor with your contribution whenever you have it ready? Why does that person need to send out a generic email to everyone and ask them to do it?

Well this is a question so I will answer it.

So as to have grassroot engagement with real chess community. So as to over time- To develop real relationships based on honesty, integrity and respect. So as to- build a product. So as to- prevent personal individualised power alliances based on ambition and crude self centered politics. So as to - produce an information service with real value for the people who live in those communities.



In fact, to avoid duplication of time and effort, it could even just be a link to the information as it already appears on your own website - which you keep up to date with all the exciting news and views from your own club. That way the Bulletin might include a brief line or two about the activity or event, major prizewinners etc and provide you with a link to the Club or State website where you can see pictures and a write-up and the interesting and amusing anecdotes that give the event some actual personality?

This might be a very good idea. Furthermore I don't see why its mutually exclusive to other ideas.




Whose responsibility is it? I don't really give a stuff. If I wanted to promote my event or activity I would expect to make that effort myself.

Well that was a strange statement. Maybe you should ask who 'my event' or 'my acitivity' is...I would think that the 'ACF bulletin' would be the ACF's concern not mine. "we" haven't even come to any consensus as to whether Australian material inclusion is a good thing, let alone any understanding as to whether Paul will actually place it in there.

Cheers Fg7

Libby
10-06-2005, 12:04 PM
As an aside -

15 years + involved in softball & baseball. Number of communications to me, as a player, from my national association = 0. Communication came from my club and, occasionally, from my state association. My Club had a delegate attend the state association and the state association had a delegate to the national association. My registration fee to my club included a component paid to the state association and part of that went to the national association. What did I receive from my club? My opportunity to play, some social activities, equipment, uniform etc. From my state association - nothing unless I was involved in representative teams or playing in an interstate carnival. From my national association I received nothing but I can't remember looking for anything either?

Netball = same experience.

Daughter's soccer = same experience plus an increased levy to support Soccer Australia when it got into difficulty.

Daughter's athletics = same experience.

Daughter's diving = same experience.

Daughter's gymnastics = same experience plus a fundraising levy every term to support elite activities in which my child has no direct involvement.

Did I forget to mention that in all of the above, when representative activities have come along I have received little or no financial support from the club etc however they have assisted us in coordinating team fundraising etc.

When chess wants recognition as a sport i see a stumbling block, not on the physical activity side of things, but on the expectation of chessplayers on who is responsible for what, who should get paid for what, and why they even play in the first place.

firegoat7
10-06-2005, 12:18 PM
As an aside -

Did I forget to mention that in all of the above, when representative activities have come along I have received little or no financial support from the club etc however they have assisted us in coordinating team fundraising etc.

When chess wants recognition as a sport i see a stumbling block, not on the physical activity side of things, but on the expectation of chessplayers on who is responsible for what, who should get paid for what, and why they even play in the first place.

I don't really understand where this is coming from so I am not sure if this reply is relevent. But what you have to accept is that the game is International. Because of this very reason, the ACF has a duty to develop the game to that level. Unfortunately this often clashes with the stark realities of its very amateurish basis in this country. Moreover, it won't be able to develop the game if it relies on just individuals, at some point in time the ACF has to be allowed to lead the game forward.

Cheers Fg7

pax
10-06-2005, 02:17 PM
P.S Communication is a two way street.

Bitching on the other hand, is generally a one-way street.

Spiny Norman
10-06-2005, 02:24 PM
Bitching on the other hand, is generally a one-way street.

It is also a dead-end ... ;)

Lucena
10-06-2005, 03:29 PM
You sound like one of those types that knows every Sicilian line 20 moves deep. Am I right or am I right! :owned:

Wrong :lol: :owned:

But I probably have above average chess trivia knowledge. Pity it doesn't help my actual chess!

Lucena
10-06-2005, 03:58 PM
MCC city open had some fantastic games, where were they?
Cheers FG7

Did you make any effort to get them to the editor? Post them on the forum! [EDIT: There is even a new thread dedicated to this!] Hey, send them to ME, for goodness sake, and I'LL try to get Paulb to put them in the bulletin!

Libby
10-06-2005, 04:47 PM
I don't really understand where this is coming from so I am not sure if this reply is relevent. But what you have to accept is that the game is International. Because of this very reason, the ACF has a duty to develop the game to that level. Unfortunately this often clashes with the stark realities of its very amateurish basis in this country. Moreover, it won't be able to develop the game if it relies on just individuals, at some point in time the ACF has to be allowed to lead the game forward.

Cheers Fg7

What you have to accept is that softball, netball, baseball, synchronised swimming, ballooning, motorcross, indoor rock-climbing etc etc etc are international.

Every one of those sports has a duty to develop their game/recreation/activity to allow the participants to achieve at the highest level in that.

Many sports are able to operate on a professional basis because of a high profile, major sponsorships, media & general public interest, and immense grass roots participation.

I don't doubt chess can lift it's game but you are a minor sport in this country. How many of our Olympic softballers (medallists!) do you think are able to earn a living through their involvement in that game? And how many of the sport's administrators do you suppose are getting paid?

Libby
10-06-2005, 05:02 PM
Interesting. How do you approach these issues are they from centralised positions of authority ie vertical or are they along the lines of developing relationships ie horizontal? In other words, is the communication based on equality or authority?

I think this makes little difference. Some people are interested in being engaged and some are not. Some of us do not express ourselves well in an email (or post) and may not always invite or include people as we intended but in the end most will participate in a process if they actually want to.



But I will give you an idea of how it works at our club. We basically ignore everything ChessVictoria sends to us. This is generally because all communication is along the lines of "we want this from MCC now', there is no talking, there is no Hi, hows it going? There is no input on any decision making, and as such we feel alienated from the process. Because of this perception we ignore the good with the bad. There is no relationship, everything is order-do-blame. Its not the way to build an organisation.

This solution is obviously working well in Victoria.



So as to have grassroot engagement with real chess community. So as to over time- To develop real relationships based on honesty, integrity and respect. So as to- build a product. So as to- prevent personal individualised power alliances based on ambition and crude self centered politics. So as to - produce an information service with real value for the people who live in those communities.

I don't see this as the role of the Bulletin editor at all. I don't get ACTJCL stuff in the newspaper by sitting around waiting to be asked for it. I send it to the media regularly and anticipate a proportion will be included depending on the news of the day and available space.


This might be a very good idea. Furthermore I don't see why its mutually exclusive to other ideas.

I just think it is far more sensible (given Paul is now going to be bombarded with event reports and local games of interest) that the Bulletin be kept short and quick to scan for items of interest. If I can read that Player X had a great win in the Blah Blah Championship and a report on the event, annotated games and pictures can be found at this link - I'd be very happy. I can follow up items of interest or move on quickly if not.




Well that was a strange statement. Maybe you should ask who 'my event' or 'my acitivity' is...I would think that the 'ACF bulletin' would be the ACF's concern not mine. "we" haven't even come to any consensus as to whether Australian material inclusion is a good thing, let alone any understanding as to whether Paul will actually place it in there.

Cheers Fg7

Ahh - "my event" Libby is obviously struck with chess megalomania.

Actually, all that is meant is if it is "my" event in terms of me being responsible for the running of it (on behalf of ACTJCL) or if I have been given the responsibility for the publicity of a certain event. Either way I would get information to my target player group through all possible & appropriate means (including the ACF Bulletin if that was appropriate). I would send information to the media including community papers, major papers, TV & radio. I would also see it as my responsibility to finish up with publicity after the event - to reward those who participated and to excite future interest amongst those who did not. That includes results to the media, perhaps here & the ACF Bulletin, our local Bulletins etc etc.

Why should it be anyone else's responsibility to ask me for that information? Can't I be a competent enough person to take responsibility or to be part of a local level organisation acting with sufficient professionalism to promote and publicise it's own activities?

firegoat7
10-06-2005, 05:46 PM
Why should it be anyone else's responsibility to ask me for that information? Can't I be a competent enough person to take responsibility or to be part of a local level organisation acting with sufficient professionalism to promote and publicise it's own activities?

I just don't get this, it does not make any sense to me. I am not even sure we are on the same wave length here.

Whether a local club game is on an ACF bulletin, has about as much importance as 1 out of a 100 for a club organiser. In fact to be honest I am more concerned with whether the clocks work and the scoresheets are in supply. The professionalism and responsibility of local grass root organisations is already there. Players know when to turn up, when the games will be on, where to go etc etc. We pay prizemoney, supply arbiters, do pairings etc etc.
Every chess club in Australia does this without to much fuss.

The ACF bulletin ought to be the responsibility of the ACF. I think this is a reasonable position (you may disagree, we can safely leave the issue at that). If content is a problem (it may or may not be, some think yes, some think no), then it is surely up to the editor to decide how they want to deal with this issue. All I have done is suggested that a little more organised communication based on personal communication could possibly be a good thing. That is all.

You may think that providing information to the ACF is an exercise in marketing. I don't view the issue this way.

Cheers Fg7

Libby
10-06-2005, 06:16 PM
I just don't get this, it does not make any sense to me. I am not even sure we are on the same wave length here.

Whether a local club game is on an ACF bulletin, has about as much importance as 1 out of a 100 for a club organiser. In fact to be honest I am more concerned with whether the clocks work and the scoresheets are in supply. The professionalism and responsibility of local grass root organisations is already there. Players know when to turn up, when the games will be on, where to go etc etc. We pay prizemoney, supply arbiters, do pairings etc etc.
Every chess club in Australia does this without to much fuss.

The ACF bulletin ought to be the responsibility of the ACF. I think this is a reasonable position (you may disagree, we can safely leave the issue at that). If content is a problem (it may or may not be, some think yes, some think no), then it is surely up to the editor to decide how they want to deal with this issue. All I have done is suggested that a little more organised communication based on personal communication could possibly be a good thing. That is all.

You may think that providing information to the ACF is an exercise in marketing. I don't view the issue this way.

Cheers Fg7

The ACF Bulletin is certainly the responsibility of the ACF and the person appointed by the ACF to produce the document.

ACTJCL rarely submits items for publication in the ACF Bulletin but when we have, they have been incorporated in the Bulletin.

The point of difference here seems to be that I see the Club organiser (or the organising committee) to also have the responsibility of growing, promoting & publicising their Club. I do not see it as the responsibility of the ACF.

If you send the editor material that is excluded repeatedly, without good reason, then you might have a complaint.

Perhaps we need the ACF Bulletin itself to include an invitation to contribute? (Rather than just Paul's contact details so we can already send a contribution as we wish and as others evidently do?)

I don't find the chess community to be overly responsible for their outcomes. If you want more local content - then submit it. If you want to be taken seriously - behave seriously. Chess seems so labour "unintensive" to me when compared to other sports that I find the lack of effort made by many people to be really discouraging (and I am not addressing this to you).

I found the whole thread on Jenni's University Competition proposal to be particularly difficult to understand.

It will cost too much to travel/stay - how do other sports & activities manage? Lost count of the chocolate frogs I've had to flog. Comes down to how much you want to play.

Won't go unless the prizemoney is good - OK for those who win it I guess. So only for the elite players then? Nobody else is really interested.

Won't go if money is wasted on a social evening/activity - nice to see chess sticking true to the anti-social, geeky stereotype. Wouldn't like to see an opportunity for a good time with your peers get in the way of ... :hmm:

Rather play it on the internet - oh yes, that's sticking with the stereotype. I'm sure everyone will be very excited to cover an event which involves players remaining safely secluded in their dorm rooms.

can you explain to me how chess will ever move forward when this is how much the players themselves value their participation?

In amongst the flaming on the ratings, there's the argument that the ratings system prevents the semi-retired from coming back to the game for fear of losing rating points. :eek: :eek: :eek: They must really enjoy the game then? Don't blame the ratings system for the shortcomings of the ego.

When you've just had a baby and had to venture clumsily back on the court against some trim little 16 year old who makes you look like a fool you just get over that ego garbage.

If a rating takes an unfair hit surely you can make it up again - if you really deserve to. Otherwise, like me, you consign yourself to the more flabby, less able pile and swallow your pride. It's a number - it won't stop you playing better if you are better than it would indicate.

Many of these issues make me feel that it is impossible to sell chess as a great game when it's own protaganists value their ability to participate so little.

WhiteElephant
10-06-2005, 09:19 PM
Well done :) Just what we need from a coach. Fantastic instilling of a decent code of behaviour and ethics in our next generation. Perhaps we should try and see if we can rival soccer crowds in our behaviour model?

Exerpt from the code of ethics for coaches as part of NCAS accreditation.

"Display control, respect, dignity and professionalism to all involved with the sport – this includes opponents, coaches, officials, administrators, the media, parents and spectators.

Encourage your athletes to demonstrate the same qualities "

Hi Jenni,

Obviously the emphasis was on Consequences of Actions, Colourful Characters and the STORY.

I do not condone violence in any sport or even outide sport. However, incidents do happen from which we (and kids) can learn something.

For example, there are many fascinating stories about chessplayers with unusual interests & abilities, funny occurrences at tournaments, etc. I relate some of those to kids to teach them not only about chess but more general lessons. About sportsmanship and having respect for your opponent.

In an average Term of ten chess lessons, I will tell a story of one sort or another in at least five of them. I believe this is important to raising kids' interest in the mythology of chess and will keep them playing and wanting to learn more.

Do you use many stories in your chess teaching?

W.E.

antichrist
10-06-2005, 10:11 PM
For years I was editor of a magazine and members would not dare bring up that they were not asked for a piece. They either submitted or shut up. And even when submitted I often would not print if I did not think up to standard. That would upset their egos. I used to pul things from anywhere and everywhere if I thought they were interesting.

Brian_Jones
11-06-2005, 10:49 AM
When you've just had a baby and had to venture clumsily back on the court against some trim little 16 year old who makes you look like a fool you just get over that ego garbage.

If a rating takes an unfair hit surely you can make it up again - if you really deserve to. Otherwise, like me, you consign yourself to the more flabby, less able pile and swallow your pride. It's a number - it won't stop you playing better if you are better than it would indicate.

Many of these issues make me feel that it is impossible to sell chess as a great game when it's own protaganists value their ability to participate so little.

Great post Libby - maybe most retired chess players are chickens?

firegoat7
11-06-2005, 05:18 PM
In amongst the flaming on the ratings, there's the argument that the ratings system prevents the semi-retired from coming back to the game for fear of losing rating points. :eek: :eek: :eek: They must really enjoy the game then? Don't blame the ratings system for the shortcomings of the ego.



My reply to this point is located in the rating thread. I think this point by Libby is a knee-jerk reaction that shows little concern for the difficulties facing rating returnees.

Cheers Fg7

Libby
11-06-2005, 05:55 PM
My reply to this point is located in the rating thread. I think this point by Libby is a knee-jerk reaction that shows little concern for the difficulties facing rating returnees.

Cheers Fg7

I'll save my concern for wondering why I involved my daughter in a game where so many adults have to find so many excuses for why they don't participate anymore.

antichrist
11-06-2005, 06:19 PM
The answer could be to have senior comps which are unrated. Prizes being hot water bottles, incontinence pads, dementia pills, walking sticks, and grand prize of wheel chair or coffin.


sorry everyone and will delete soon

Spiny Norman
11-06-2005, 06:53 PM
The answer could be to have senior comps which are unrated. Prizes being hot water bottles, incontinence pads, dementia pills, walking sticks, and grand prize of wheel chair or coffin.

sorry everyone and will delete soon
:clap: Don't you dare delete ... great post!

Bill Gletsos
11-06-2005, 07:01 PM
I'll save my concern for wondering why I involved my daughter in a game where so many adults have to find so many excuses for why they don't participate anymore.Also Fulgenzi who fg7 cited had a habit of not playing for long periods at a time. Since 1983 he had a 4 year break, a 1/2 year break,a 4 1/2 year break,a 4 1/2 year break and a 7 1/3 year break.
Of course if he doesnt play again for awhile no doubt fg7 will try and blame this break on the rating system.

WhiteElephant
11-06-2005, 07:07 PM
The answer could be to have senior comps which are unrated. Prizes being hot water bottles, incontinence pads, dementia pills, walking sticks, and grand prize of wheel chair or coffin.


sorry everyone and will delete soon

That's exactly right. It shouldn't be about blaming players but rather organisers and promoters offering the right incentives.

It's not that players are not committed to playing the game they love - how can you say that Libby - I am sure players would love to play chess every day but other things take precedence. Australian culture is slowly shifting and as we start to place a higher value on intellectual pursuits, people are reorganising their priorities and chess moves up the agenda. However, while chess is still a fairly marginal pursuit, some people will drop out. I doubt this is because they have suddenly become tired of chess.

Libby
11-06-2005, 07:42 PM
It's not that players are not committed to playing the game they love - how can you say that Libby - I am sure players would love to play chess every day but other things take precedence. Australian culture is slowly shifting and as we start to place a higher value on intellectual pursuits, people are reorganising their priorities and chess moves up the agenda. However, while chess is still a fairly marginal pursuit, some people will drop out. I doubt this is because they have suddenly become tired of chess.

I think every one of us faces times when other things take priority. Every sport/pursuit faces this. That wasn't the reason being put forward.

If footballers can find the time to play every Saturday, and attend training a couple of times a week, and maybe coach a junior team or wave the flags behind the goals for the "seconds" even when they are past the peak of their powers why wouldn't those who place chess at the front of their recreational interests just do the same?

I know many do. I also know some footballers etc will throw in the towel as soon as the drop out of 1st Grade because they can't bear the thought of not playing at the standard that they used to. If that's what keeps people out of the game (or the alternative of not wanting to put the work in to perhaps reach the required standard again) then that's their choice and I don't see much point in blaming outside forces.

The basic issue should be whether or not you want to play, and in what environment - internet, across-the-board, competitive, social or "backyard."

WhiteElephant
11-06-2005, 08:00 PM
I think every one of us faces times when other things take priority. Every sport/pursuit faces this. That wasn't the reason being put forward.

If footballers can find the time to play every Saturday, and attend training a couple of times a week, and maybe coach a junior team or wave the flags behind the goals for the "seconds" even when they are past the peak of their powers why wouldn't those who place chess at the front of their recreational interests just do the same?

I know many do. I also know some footballers etc will throw in the towel as soon as the drop out of 1st Grade because they can't bear the thought of not playing at the standard that they used to. If that's what keeps people out of the game (or the alternative of not wanting to put the work in to perhaps reach the required standard again) then that's their choice and I don't see much point in blaming outside forces.

The basic issue should be whether or not you want to play, and in what environment - internet, across-the-board, competitive, social or "backyard."

Yes, chessplayers should get their priorities right, which is to put chess first!

The problem is that when people make a choice to participate in a sport, they are taking more into account than just the act of playing that sport. They consider the status/ place of that sport within society, the social groups within that sport, and various other things. So someone might choose to play netball because Australia has a great record internationally in the sport and it is considered 'cool' to be a netballer. The more popular a sport already is, the more new people will generally be attracted to it.

Chess is becoming more popular, because our society is changing and due to excellent organising and promotion by many people, like yourself and Jenni. But it still hasn't shaken off its dorky image and attracts a certain kind of personality. So someone deciding between chess and something else is making a decision to enter into a particular social group.

I have loved playing chess my entire life but I retired when I was 18 because I began uni and I preferred to hang out with my uni friends who wanted to go out and party rather than my chess friends who wanted to sit around and listen to Pink Floyd :) These days, there is a more mainstream crowd playing chess which I think will have a positive impact on both new people taking it up and retention rates.

antichrist
11-06-2005, 10:11 PM
With some people there nerves go on them, I have noticed this players who are with heavy drinkers. I know non-drinkers who have had breakdowns from chess and other nervous conditions.

There is some social chess that is unseen. In Aubrun RSL every night there are 6 retired comp players. At a Serbian cafe at Cabra there are about a dozen retired comp players etc etc. There are many unregistered groups, refer my Regional Chess thread. There are the garden chess sets in public parks. Burwood one is always crowded, mostly ex-comp players.

Previously I have organised workplace comps which no one else would know about; plus chess days at Bankstown Sports Club likewise.

I play every day and win free tucker. Have been doing so for years. Bad for my chess and my figure.

pax
11-06-2005, 10:14 PM
Two weeks ago, firegoat was complaining about not knowing anything about the call for bids for the 2006 Australian Championships. When it was pointed out that this important information was distributed in the ACF Newsletter for quite a number of consecutive weeks, he claimed never to read it.

Isn't it a little ironic that he is now complaining about the content (or lack thereof) of that same newsletter?

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 01:35 AM
Of course if he doesnt play again for awhile no doubt fg7 will try and blame this break on the rating system.

A particularly stupid comment

Bill Gletsos
12-06-2005, 02:02 AM
A particularly stupid commentNo, based on your comments a particularly reasonable one.

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 02:02 AM
Pax,
I really should go easy on you, what with your new baby and probable sleep deprivation.

Two weeks ago, firegoat was complaining about not knowing anything about the call for bids for the 2006 Australian Championships.
Actually that is not what I was saying..that is what you say I was saying. There is a difference...if you believe you are right (your not) put a quote in the context of the arguement and discuss it.


When it was pointed out that this important information was distributed in the ACF Newsletter for quite a number of consecutive weeks, he claimed never to read it. A) I won't be reading it much longer if it doesn't improve. B] Show me where I make these claims, put them in a context and discuss it before you character assasinate me with your sloppy interpretation..



Isn't it a little ironic that he is now complaining about the content (or lack thereof) of that same newsletter?
Who knows what your point is? :hmm:

Let me ask you a couple of questions Pax?

How many times have you been an organiser for a chess club?
How much money does your chess club contribute, indirectly or otherwise to the ACF and State associations?
When was the last time you received an email or a call from the ACF or State association just to say hello?
When was the last time an ACF or State rep visited your club as an official?
How many times has your chess club organised the Australian championship and obtained over $50,000 dollars sponsorship?
Have you ever seen the financial details of an ACF or State bidded event listed for public scrutiny?

If your answer to all the questions above is zero, then what does this mean :rolleyes:

Cheers fg7

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 02:03 AM
No, based on your comments a particularly reasonable one.

How so Einstein?

Bill Gletsos
12-06-2005, 02:15 AM
No doubt pax is referring to the following quote fg7 made when told the ACF call for bids for the coming Australian Championship was in ACF Bulletin #304.
I don't read the ACF bulletin.

Bill Gletsos
12-06-2005, 02:19 AM
How so Einstein?You keep telling me not to refer to you as stupid. As such you should be able to work it out yourself.

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 02:45 AM
No doubt pax is referring to the following quote fg7 made when told the ACF call for bids for the coming Australian Championship was in ACF Bulletin #304.

Dear Chesskit members,

I object. I clearly asked for a quote in context. To do otherwise misrepresents the facts.

concerned citizen

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 02:47 AM
You keep telling me not to refer to you as stupid. As such you should be able to work it out yopurself.

Very enlightening.

But we digress...lets presume for arguements sake I am the most stupid person on the planet.

How is your comment so?

Cheers Fg7

Bill Gletsos
12-06-2005, 03:02 AM
Dear Chesskit members,

I object. I clearly asked for a quote in context. To do otherwise misrepresents the facts.

concerned citizenYou can object all you like. No one takes you seriously.

Bill Gletsos
12-06-2005, 03:03 AM
Very enlightening.

But we digress...lets presume for arguements sake I am the most stupid person on the planet.I'm prepared to accept that.

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 03:10 AM
I'm prepared to accept that.

Ok, so granted that is now an accepted norm.

How is your comment so?

Cheers fg7

Bill Gletsos
12-06-2005, 03:23 AM
Ok, so granted that is now an accepted norm.

How is your comment so?As far as I'm concerned you can work it out for yourself.
If you cant then thats tough.

pax
12-06-2005, 12:03 PM
Let me ask you a couple of questions Pax?

How many times have you been an organiser for a chess club?
How much money does your chess club contribute, indirectly or otherwise to the ACF and State associations?
When was the last time you received an email or a call from the ACF or State association just to say hello?
When was the last time an ACF or State rep visited your club as an official?
How many times has your chess club organised the Australian championship and obtained over $50,000 dollars sponsorship?
Have you ever seen the financial details of an ACF or State bidded event listed for public scrutiny?

If your answer to all the questions above is zero, then what does this mean :rolleyes:

Cheers fg7

Do I need chess administration qualifications in order to point out your hypocrisy? No.

As it happens, I have held executive positions in several clubs and have organised a number of tournaments including an Australian Open. Not that it has any relevance to the current conversation.

Libby
12-06-2005, 12:24 PM
Yes, chessplayers should get their priorities right, which is to put chess first!

The problem is that when people make a choice to participate in a sport, they are taking more into account than just the act of playing that sport. They consider the status/ place of that sport within society, the social groups within that sport, and various other things. So someone might choose to play netball because Australia has a great record internationally in the sport and it is considered 'cool' to be a netballer. The more popular a sport already is, the more new people will generally be attracted to it.

I think this is largely piffle when you are talking about ongoing participation. I gave no consideration to the status of "netball" etc when I took it up at 9 or 10. It was introduced to me at school and I was given an opportunity to play with my classmates.

I'll agree it is regarded as more "cool" than chess (for grls anyway ;) ) but when you hit high school all sports are faced with a drop-off in participation. I didn't actually play netball (for example, I know you boys hate sports stories) at all during high school and took it up again when I started work.

I actually wasn't any good at all at any sport until I was 15 or 16 so I dropped netball because I was pretty bad at it and had no particular desire to continue something I wasn't good at.

Many things at high school are not cool. Chess isn't alone there. Just being intelligent isn't cool. If you're pretty geeky anyway it won't change your social staus when you drop out of chess. It won't make you suddenly picked for the footy team.

It might make you choose footy over chess if you have that option. But footy is also better at showing players a future in the game. The aspirational player has the AFL and the less aspirational have a clear path to senior grade football locally.


Chess is becoming more popular, because our society is changing and due to excellent organising and promotion by many people, like yourself and Jenni. But it still hasn't shaken off its dorky image and attracts a certain kind of personality. So someone deciding between chess and something else is making a decision to enter into a particular social group.

Chess is becoming more popular in the numbers we attract to school's competitions etc. I'd like to see the statistics on Club growth (other than juniors) as I have no idea where that is.

What I do know is a lot of children seem to be pushed towards chess for the "educational benefits" or enhancement of the childhood resume. Chess itself is keen to exploit that connection - which is fine. But that is not really developing chessplayers, is it?


These days, there is a more mainstream crowd playing chess which I think will have a positive impact on both new people taking it up and retention rates.

I hope so. I find I actually enjoy watching the game myself now :eek: (sometimes for the little jolt of satisfaction I get from thinking of a move and then seeing it actually played and imagining I am not a complete idiot!) I don't even find it a difficult game to "sell" to people anymore.

It's a better pursuit than some of you give it credit for. Your local community, school, club, newspaper & nation can be sold almost anything if they know we are good at it.

firegoat7
12-06-2005, 01:10 PM
Greetings Pax,



Do I need chess administration qualifications in order to point out your hypocrisy? No.

Of course you do not need chess administartion experience to criticise a position. But having some experience helps me and you to clarify what it is we are talking about.

Now for you to establish that I am a hypocrite, you first have to show me how I am being inconsistent in the context of arguements. If you produce quotes in the contexts of threads I can then answer your concerns as best I can. Otherwise I ask you quite simply 'why should anybody believe what you are saying?' You may be right Pax, but you have yet to convince me with any evidence.



As it happens, I have held executive positions in several clubs and have organised a number of tournaments including an Australian Open. Not that it has any relevance to the current conversation. Actually it has a lot of relevence.1) Do you currently hold any position of authority anywhere in Australian chess? 2) When you organised the Australian Open, what was your position on communication with the ACF? Did you belong to the ACF at the time? How did you communicate your interest in a bid and your proposals for a bid to the ACF? 3) Did you ever belong to a club that never communicated with the ACF?

cheers Fg7

WhiteElephant
12-06-2005, 02:45 PM
It's a better pursuit than some of you give it credit for. Your local community, school, club, newspaper & nation can be sold almost anything if they know we are good at it.

Hi Libby,

You seem to be constantly bagging chessplayers and their lack of passion for the sport. If you think so little of 'some of [us]' (as you put it above) then why do you continue to assosiate with us?

W.E.

Libby
12-06-2005, 03:25 PM
Hi Libby,

You seem to be constantly bagging chessplayers and their lack of passion for the sport. If you think so little of 'some of [us]' (as you put it above) then why do you continue to assosiate with us?

W.E.

Obviously I have too much time on my hands! :rolleyes:

Actually I think most chess players have a passion for their game. It's pretty obvious from the time spent discussing and analysing and the books you will read (which you have to be pretty passionate about to actually read - they look a bit dry to me!)

What I don't understand is why players won't play unless there is money dangling at the end of the tournament, or enough money, or whatever.

I don't understand the cultural differences between chess and my experience of sport.

I don't understand why talented people find it so easy to drop out (speaking of many "teen" players specifically). In my sports experience, you certainly lose players, but will tend to retain your most talented unless there is a dual sports involvement.

And I'll apologise for bagging you all out. It's the know-it-all female streak coming to the fore.

Denis_Jessop
12-06-2005, 05:44 PM
Obviously I have too much time on my hands! :rolleyes:

Actually I think most chess players have a passion for their game. It's pretty obvious from the time spent discussing and analysing and the books you will read (which you have to be pretty passionate about to actually read - they look a bit dry to me!)

What I don't understand is why players won't play unless there is money dangling at the end of the tournament, or enough money, or whatever.

I don't understand the cultural differences between chess and my experience of sport.

I don't understand why talented people find it so easy to drop out (speaking of many "teen" players specifically). In my sports experience, you certainly lose players, but will tend to retain your most talented unless there is a dual sports involvement.

And I'll apologise for bagging you all out. It's the know-it-all female streak coming to the fore.

There are, in my view, some very good reasons why chess players drop out.

Chess players tend to be obsessive personalities with a desire for excellence in their achievements. Against that background reasons for dropping out include:

1. Among secondary and tertiary students, the stresses of study, the need to put study before chess and the need to achieve excellence which cannot be done by many in study and chess at the same time.

2. Among young (post-study) to early middle-aged players, the need to succeed at their career and the pressures to work long hours that are the norm in today's employer-dominated society.

3. The fact that there is now so much data available both in print an computer form that it is impossible to keep abreast of it, or even to sort the good from the bad, and study or maintain a career - chess players tend to be perfectionists, fear errors and feel a need to know everything even if a rational consideration of the matter would show this to be impossible.

4. The tyranny of ratings places great stress on perfectionist, high-aspiring personalities. This is not confined to chess. For example, I believe that similar pressures to perform plus a numerical ratings sytem are responsible for the high incidence of drug-taking among professional road cyclists in recent years.

In other words what I am saying is that, once you get past early secondary school, chess tends no longer to be played just for fun. :(

DJ

Libby
12-06-2005, 06:07 PM
There are, in my view, some very good reasons why chess players drop out.

Chess players tend to be obsessive personalities with a desire for excellence in their achievements. Against that background reasons for dropping out include:

1. Among secondary and tertiary students, the stresses of study, the need to put study before chess and the need to achieve excellence which cannot be done by many in study and chess at the same time.

2. Among young (post-study) to early middle-aged players, the need to succeed at their career and the pressures to work long hours that are the norm in today's employer-dominated society.

3. The fact that there is now so much data available both in print an computer form that it is impossible to keep abreast of it, or even to sort the good from the bad, and study or maintain a career - chess players tend to be perfectionists, fear errors and feel a need to know everything even if a rational consideration of the matter would show this to be impossible.

4. The tyranny of ratings places great stress on perfectionist, high-aspiring personalities. This is not confined to chess. For example, I believe that similar pressures to perform plus a numerical ratings sytem are responsible for the high incidence of drug-taking among professional road cyclists in recent years.

In other words what I am saying is that, once you get past early secondary school, chess tends no longer to be played just for fun. :(

DJ

I'll agree with you on a lot of that Denis.

Although I will say there are many examples of professional sportspeople who are also exceptionally high achievers in the academic sphere.

I believe Andy McKay completed Vet Science whilst playing professional football for Carlton and I have seen many Olympians interviewed (Including Chris Fydler I think, who was studying Medicine) who juggle an immense training/competition workload with their study. Some of them are receiving support & assistance to facilitate this but there are many pursuing minor sports, without the bucks or the accolades, and seeking perfection in both the sporting & academic/workplace world.

I think there are lots of reasons, it's just a shame they are so compelling for so many.

pax
12-06-2005, 09:19 PM
Greetings Pax,




Of course you do not need chess administartion experience to criticise a position. But having some experience helps me and you to clarify what it is we are talking about.

Now for you to establish that I am a hypocrite, you first have to show me how I am being inconsistent in the context of arguements. If you produce quotes in the contexts of threads I can then answer your concerns as best I can. Otherwise I ask you quite simply 'why should anybody believe what you are saying?' You may be right Pax, but you have yet to convince me with any evidence.

Actually it has a lot of relevence.1) Do you currently hold any position of authority anywhere in Australian chess? 2) When you organised the Australian Open, what was your position on communication with the ACF? Did you belong to the ACF at the time? How did you communicate your interest in a bid and your proposals for a bid to the ACF? 3) Did you ever belong to a club that never communicated with the ACF?

cheers Fg7


Frankly I have better things to do than continue to engage in this flagrant trolling exercise.

Denis_Jessop
13-06-2005, 12:05 AM
I'll agree with you on a lot of that Denis.

Although I will say there are many examples of professional sportspeople who are also exceptionally high achievers in the academic sphere.

I believe Andy McKay completed Vet Science whilst playing professional football for Carlton and I have seen many Olympians interviewed (Including Chris Fydler I think, who was studying Medicine) who juggle an immense training/competition workload with their study. Some of them are receiving support & assistance to facilitate this but there are many pursuing minor sports, without the bucks or the accolades, and seeking perfection in both the sporting & academic/workplace world.

I think there are lots of reasons, it's just a shame they are so compelling for so many.

It is undeniable that there are a number of sportspeople and chessplayers who are high achievers academically. While I was a student a Melbourne University we had several in Ormond College where I was resident - Ken Melville who was Vice-captain of Melbourne FC and a theology student who retired from football when he became a Presbyterian clergyman, David Shaw who studied law and played for Essendon, Jim Howden who also studied law and rowed in the 1956 Olympic eight along with Mike Aikman. Otherwise there was Carlton iron man Laurie Kerr MA and Mike Fitzpatrick was a Rhodes scholar, not forgetting the multi-talented John Goold, my favourite Carlton player and one of the few regularly to bounce the ball one-handed on the run (but I digress). Sure, these people exist in many sports but these are elite sports people and we have chess equivalents eg Cecil Purdy, Doug Hamilton, Richard Brent, Ian Rogers, Darryl Johansen, Greg Hjorth, Terry Shaw, John Purdy and David Smerdon (to name a few off the top of my head) some of whom kept on playing and some who did not. They are really exceptions because of their great talent. I am thinking more of the mass of sports/chess people whose existence is necessary to keep the game alive; those who are not super elite but even just below down to the club players who are the soul of chess. Nevertheless, you only need to run your eye down the list of Australian Junior and Girls Champions and ask "where are they now?" Moreover the pressures to which I referred are things that have arisen only in the last few years ( say 20 or much less in the case of data volume). So the situation may well be getting worse rather than better - I think it is, and understandably so.

DJ

firegoat7
13-06-2005, 02:13 AM
Frankly I have better things to do than continue to engage in this flagrant trolling exercise.

Getting a bit hot for you Pax?

Seems like your opinion was only that-opinion, goodonya

Cheers Fg7

firegoat7
13-06-2005, 02:16 AM
Moreover the pressures to which I referred are things that have arisen only in the last few years ( say 20 or much less in the case of data volume). So the situation may well be getting worse rather than better - I think it is, and understandably so.

DJ

:hmm: Hmmm in line with the rise of Neo-liberalism...interesting. :eek:

Cheers fg7

Denis_Jessop
13-06-2005, 01:13 PM
:hmm: Hmmm in line with the rise of Neo-liberalism...interesting. :eek:

Cheers fg7

Precisely :evil:

DJ

pax
14-06-2005, 09:10 AM
Getting a bit hot for you Pax?

Seems like your opinion was only that-opinion, goodonya

Cheers Fg7

My opinion is only ever my opinion.

Your hypocrisy on the other hand is plain to see without my input.

firegoat7
14-06-2005, 04:05 PM
My opinion is only ever my opinion.

Your hypocrisy on the other hand is plain to see without my input.

Pax your being a clown. The most basic rule of arguement is to represent the others postion in its correct context. Seems as if you don't understand this.

cheers Fg7

paulb
14-06-2005, 07:04 PM
I've just read this appalling heap of garbage and I have to say I find firegoat's remarks pretty offensive.
I spend a great deal of time on the newsletter, and if firegoat doesn't like it, he can lump it. I'm removing him from the distribution list until I get an apology. There are plenty of people who appreciate what I do - they tell me so - and I have no interest in pandering to imbeciles on this bb. Go and get

Alan Shore
14-06-2005, 08:00 PM
I've just read this appalling heap of garbage and I have to say I find firegoat's remarks pretty offensive.
I spend a great deal of time on the newsletter, and if firegoat doesn't like it, he can lump it. I'm removing him from the distribution list until I get an apology. There are plenty of people who appreciate what I do - they tell me so - and I have no interest in pandering to imbeciles on this bb. Go and get

Yeah, can understand. Would have been fine if fg7 had of made the suggestion instead of referring to it as 'codswallop'. Add me to the list of those who appreciate your efforts Paul (even though I don't look at the games personally), the selection seems very informative and comprehensive.

firegoat7
14-06-2005, 08:21 PM
I've just read this appalling heap of garbage and I have to say I find firegoat's remarks pretty offensive.
I spend a great deal of time on the newsletter, and if firegoat doesn't like it, he can lump it. I'm removing him from the distribution list until I get an apology. There are plenty of people who appreciate what I do - they tell me so - and I have no interest in pandering to imbeciles on this bb. Go and get

Is this serious?

firegoat7
14-06-2005, 08:24 PM
Yeah, can understand. Would have been fine if fg7 had of made the suggestion instead of referring to it as 'codswallop'. Add me to the list of those who appreciate your efforts Paul (even though I don't look at the games personally), the selection seems very informative and comprehensive. :whistle: !

Aaron Bellette
14-06-2005, 08:40 PM
Well, for what it's worth, I find the Newsletter very enjoyable and I think that the variety in different issues is excellent, rather than being the same old format every time. Thanks Paul! :D

AB

jenni
14-06-2005, 10:27 PM
Hi Jenni,

Obviously the emphasis was on Consequences of Actions, Colourful Characters and the STORY.

I do not condone violence in any sport or even outide sport. However, incidents do happen from which we (and kids) can learn something.

For example, there are many fascinating stories about chessplayers with unusual interests & abilities, funny occurrences at tournaments, etc. I relate some of those to kids to teach them not only about chess but more general lessons. About sportsmanship and having respect for your opponent.

In an average Term of ten chess lessons, I will tell a story of one sort or another in at least five of them. I believe this is important to raising kids' interest in the mythology of chess and will keep them playing and wanting to learn more.

Do you use many stories in your chess teaching?

W.E.

Hmm - OK if the emphasis was that - as long as we are not turning unprofessional people into folk heros.....

I tend to teach one on one - not classes of kids, so there is not the same problem in holding attention. Tony and I have run chess clubs of one sort or another for many years, but tend to let the kids play and move around and work with either one kid or a pair.

Where we need to really "teach" kids we get in a proper coach (in the early days). These days we use Shannon or Gareth and once again they work in a similar way to us. I think our format works well with producing a small number of good players, but not large groups. It can't be too bad as our school teams have had a fair bit of success at the ASCC.

Rhubarb
16-06-2005, 04:49 AM
Hi Paul,

Add me to the list of thankful people - one who not only appreciates the weekly conglomeration of Australian news but who always plays through the games as well (if I haven't seen them already).

Regards,
Greg

antichrist
16-06-2005, 08:05 AM
Hi Paul,

Add me to the list of thankful people - one who not only appreciates the weekly conglomeration of Australian news but who always plays through the games as well (if I haven't seen them already).

Regards,
Greg

Well Kegless,
I can go one better than you, I don't even receive it and I reakon it is the best thing since sliced bread.

pax
16-06-2005, 09:37 AM
Note that this week's newsletter contains excellent reports on three Aussie events, and no less than seven Australian games.

This is the way it works - when there are major Australian events to report, the newsletter contains mainly news and games from those events. When Australia is quiet, there are more overseas reports and games - a good way to keep the interest up I reckon.

arosar
16-06-2005, 09:53 AM
I also am thankful for this newsletter. And thanks to Paul for including my pics again. That bloody Yahoo isn't letting me upload my pics!

AR

Davidflude
16-06-2005, 02:19 PM
Congratulations on the bulletin. I received an urgent Email and sent the bulletin
some Vic Open games. Great to see the three I suggested appeared on the bulletin. There are still lots of Vic Open games to enter. One junior volunteered his help and is ripping into round 7.

Rincewind
16-06-2005, 02:33 PM
One junior volunteered his help and is ripping into round 7.

:clap:

firegoat7
17-06-2005, 01:21 PM
Congratulations on the bulletin.
Yes I agree David. The latest one had some great reports on Australian chess. It informed the chess public, in Australia, of action, engagement, history and drama. :clap: :clap: :clap:



I received an urgent Email and sent the bulletin

Well stone the crows!! 'an urgent email'- before jumping in here with a comment Dave, Could you just qualify this statement for moi? Who actually sent you the 'urgent' email? Was it from internal Box Hill sources? Was it from ChessVictoria?, or was it from the ACF?

Cheers Fg7

ursogr8
17-06-2005, 01:35 PM
Yes I agree David. The latest one had some great reports on Australian chess. It informed the chess public, in Australia, of action, engagement, history and drama. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Well stone the crows!! 'an urgent email'- before jumping in here with a comment Dave, Could you just qualify this statement for moi? Who actually sent you the 'urgent' email? Was it from internal Box Hill sources? Was it from ChessVictoria?, or was it from the ACF?

Cheers Fg7

Hi Fg7,

If I was a betting man, ;) , I would not have my money on any of the three 'horses' that you call. (In fact urgent in the same sentence as... well you can finish as an exercise. :uhoh: )

It was an excellent newsletter, agreed.
But the key responsibility for good content surely resides with each Club.

regards,
on a slow news day :rolleyes:

starter

firegoat7
17-06-2005, 01:52 PM
Hello Starter,

U wrote


If I was a betting man, ;) , I would not have my money on any of the three 'horses' that you call. (In fact urgent in the same sentence as... well you can finish as an exercise. :uhoh: )


Yes, Starter, you may have the inside form guide, but I am waiting for the stewards all clear before paying up on bets. Afterall the form guide did say...



I received an urgent Email and sent the bulletin
some Vic Open games.

Again. I will reiterate, am waiting for David Flude's response before commenting further.



But the key responsibility for good content surely resides with each Club.
Again, will await David Flude's response before responding, the subject is just a tad hot at the moment....you know how its ...don't want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire.



Cheers FG7

firegoat7
19-06-2005, 02:30 PM
Hello,

The silence is deafening.

Cheers Fg7