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jenni
24-05-2005, 01:12 PM
At the moment this still has "unofficial" status, but I am hoping for it to become an "official" one soon. (Denis will be putting a proposal to the ACF).

The first one will be held in Sydney in February 2006 (dates and venue TBA).

Because we are assuming a variable number of entrants (from 1 to x) from a University, it will be held as an individual swiss. There will be an individual Uni Champion, as well as a team champion. (adding the best 3 scores from each Uni). There will be a small entry fee ($10?) to cover costs and trophies.

I would like some input

- any negative/positive comments

- should members from a Uni play each other (we can use the "club" mechanism in Swiss perfect to prevent it).

- is early in Feb better, or should it be as closer to the start of Uni

- I would think limiting it to "students" rather than "staff" will create a better atmosphere - any comment?

If people could provide contact details (either here or via PM or e-mail) for Uni chess clubs, that would be great. Individual e-mail details would be good as well so I can create a distribution list for info.

ursogr8
24-05-2005, 01:26 PM
hi jenni

Sounds good.
One of my favourite old memories was participating in INTERVARSITY Championships...golf, and football, and squash.

Do they still hold INTERVARSITY Championships? Which month?
Anyone?

Garvinator
24-05-2005, 02:09 PM
Do they still hold INTERVARSITY Championships? Which month?
Anyone?
yes they do i think. I have seen advertising for this year somewhere, I think it is being held in cairns. Dont quote me on that though ;) i just remember seeing something about it somewhere :uhoh:

Garvinator
24-05-2005, 02:11 PM
Because we are assuming a variable number of entrants (from 1 to x) from a University, it will be held as an individual swiss. There will be an individual Uni Champion, as well as a team champion. (adding the best 3 scores from each Uni). There will be a small entry fee ($10?) to cover costs and trophies.

I would like some input

- any negative/positive comments

- should members from a Uni play each other (we can use the "club" mechanism in Swiss perfect to prevent it).

- is early in Feb better, or should it be as closer to the start of Uni

- I would think limiting it to "students" rather than "staff" will create a better atmosphere - any comment?

If people could provide contact details (either here or via PM or e-mail) for Uni chess clubs, that would be great. Individual e-mail details would be good as well so I can create a distribution list for info.
How much prize money is there going to be etc, because unless it is substantial, i dont think it will be too much of a NATIONAL event. I would find it hard to see anyone from QLD travelling down to it.

For university of qld chess club, I am the person to send tournament information to, so send it my way Jenni.

jenni
24-05-2005, 03:50 PM
hi Libby


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :evil: :evil:

jenni
24-05-2005, 03:53 PM
How much prize money is there going to be etc, because unless it is substantial, i dont think it will be too much of a NATIONAL event. I would find it hard to see anyone from QLD travelling down to it.

For university of qld chess club, I am the person to send tournament information to, so send it my way Jenni.

No prize money - trophies only. I don't believe the University games has prize money for the various divsion?

You are right that we are going to find it hard to attract all states, but we can build on it. I have interest from Vic, ACT and NSW so far and I am hoping to get at least one person from QLd and SA. :)

Garvinator
24-05-2005, 04:21 PM
You are right that we are going to find it hard to attract all states, but we can build on it. I have interest from Vic, ACT and NSW so far and I am hoping to get at least one person from QLd and SA. :)
ok you might get one person from qld ;) i am sure you will get that many :lol: :D

ursogr8
24-05-2005, 04:55 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :evil: :evil:

Now corrected.

I know what I was thinking. :doh:


starter

jenni
24-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Now corrected.

I know what I was thinking. :doh:


starter
We are used to being consdered interchangeable....

1min_grandmaster
24-05-2005, 06:28 PM
I think few players will play if the tournament is run in Febuary. It needs to be run after university clubs have had a chance to get into motion for the year. Most university chess clubs have a very unstable nature because the turnover rate for the committee is very high (students come and go in only a few years). I think the most successful time of the year for this event is early semster 2, so probably July/August.

The tournament must be an individual swiss. A teams event wont work for universities. In the past, a similar tournament for universities was attempted and failed to get enough entries simply because teams of 4 could not be formed. For example, if 3 players are interested, a team cannot be formed.

If you can, try to make the entry fee smaller. If the cost is too high and clubs cannot pay for the players, then there will be few players because students are a poor demographic. $10 is considered high by many students.

I think it is best if you decide on the day whether players from the same uni can play each other. Basically, the determining factor is how many players from each uni, but other things such as where the best few players are from the same uni may come into it. This detail is not likely to influence participation rates.

I don't think excluding staff makes a big difference. There are not that many staff that would play anyway. So you may as well include them.

It will be very difficult to get players from interstate. If you can achieve this then it would be great, but I think it is unlikely.

The SU Chess Club contact details are on our website:

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~jchan3/succ

1min_grandmaster
24-05-2005, 07:10 PM
I should explain why I think running this tournament early semester 2 is the best time. Basically, the club has had enough time to run some events and get into motion by that time of year. Also, it is the time of semester when there are few assignments, exams are not close enough yet, etc.

Most university chess clubs do nothing during the end of year break (December to February). If you run the tournament in Febuary, they may not give notice for the event, and many players from the club will not be meeting each other to discuss about the event, give word-of-mouth, etc. Finally, there are international (and even local) students who are not in Australia in Febuary, they wait just before the start of semester before they come back.

Finally, dont run the tournament in the middle of the semester, get as close to the start as you can, otherwise assessments will prevent people from playing. Different unis have different weeks schedules, so you have to take this into account too.

jenni
24-05-2005, 07:29 PM
There are some good points there against a Feb comp - does anyone else have a feeling about this?

ElevatorEscapee
24-05-2005, 08:03 PM
Hi Jenni, I agree with 1min GM.

February is a very bad month to hold it, the first year students won't have enrolled until late February, early March. Then they will have all the worries of starting a new course, familiarizing themselves with their new surrounds, finding a place to stay, making new friends, joining social clubs, coming up with money to buy text books, parking permits, course fees, etc.

Perhaps the the last thing they would want to do is uproot themselves during the middle of all this to go on a possibly expensive trip to play in a chess tournament.

I think the break between first and second semester would be an ideal time. Students have had time to settle their affairs, and might be looking for a diversion before the next semester starts. :)

One question: is entry restricted just to students? Or can university employees participate too? ;)

jenni
24-05-2005, 08:44 PM
One question: is entry restricted just to students? Or can university employees participate too? ;)

It's kind of all up for discussion at the moment - I'd like to take all points of view and then come up with a comp that hopefully works. The accent is on "participation" rather than "elite" and trying to create something that gives kids who've played the schools comp something to move to. I guess my main thrust is to create something for the 18 to 25 group, but I am not against including employees if people think that would work?

Thunderspirit
24-05-2005, 09:32 PM
At the moment this still has "unofficial" status, but I am hoping for it to become an "official" one soon. (Denis will be putting a proposal to the ACF).

The first one will be held in Sydney in February 2006 (dates and venue TBA).

Because we are assuming a variable number of entrants (from 1 to x) from a University, it will be held as an individual swiss. There will be an individual Uni Champion, as well as a team champion. (adding the best 3 scores from each Uni). There will be a small entry fee ($10?) to cover costs and trophies.

I would like some input

- any negative/positive comments

- should members from a Uni play each other (we can use the "club" mechanism in Swiss perfect to prevent it).

- is early in Feb better, or should it be as closer to the start of Uni

- I would think limiting it to "students" rather than "staff" will create a better atmosphere - any comment?

If people could provide contact details (either here or via PM or e-mail) for Uni chess clubs, that would be great. Individual e-mail details would be good as well so I can create a distribution list for info.

Geeze... This is a tough one Jenni, even for you. This was tried a few years back while I was still a student at UNSW. Allen Richards from Sydney Uni, tried really hard to get something going, but only UNSW and Sydney turned up. Sydney had 1 team or 4, and UNSW had three teams. To make things worse Macquarie Uni pulled out the night before. I was a little disapointed ANU didn't send a team either.

You are facing an up hill battle. Firstly any true universities event should not contain staff- just students from Undergrad to Phd. While a lot of chess players work at uni's, you loose what I believe you are trying to achieve. Which is a social event, for really big kids!

Then there is apathy... This frustrated me terribly at UNSW. We had some super players who studied there, but trying to get them to play an allergo on one afternoon was tough, it was almost impossible to run my UNSW FIDE invitationals. I have Kerry Stead partially to thank.

I think your best bet, which will be expensive is a Uni masters. A 10 player RR with Australia's Top Uni Players. (Smurf, Zong-Yuan, George Xie, Tomek, etc...) But you'll have to offer good conditons, so that may be too expensive.

A teams event (though the fun bet, won't work...) Trying to get 4 people from the one uni, to commit to one weekend is impossible.

Another idea is just an individiual swiss, but to be honest you may hit 20-30 if you are super lucky and the event is held in Sydney for that to happen. I plan to go back to uni part time soon, and I would like to play but I can't see it being too popular.

There are too many other factors that compete... Study, Work, Booze, Women (for the guys that is...) and apathy. Most tournament players don't play much through uni, though its getting better, it still far from good... :wall:


Good luck...

jenni
24-05-2005, 09:53 PM
Good luck...

Thanks Lee - I have done some research and have heard all about the last debacle. We have already decided to make it an individual's swiss,to cater for unis only able to supply one player. We will then add the best 3 scores to get a teams result. This means that a Uni with only 1 player won't be eligible for a teams title, but they can still be the individual Uni Champion.

I am happy to have say 20 people in the first year and try and build from there. I am prepared to take a few years to try and build it up. Of course it may not be possible and maybe Australia will never be able to do it, but its worth a try.

The reason we are holding it in Sydney to start with is to tap into the Sydney crowd. I am pretty sure I can get at least 2 from Canberra ( :) ) and probably more as Jeremy Reading was interested and there are quite a few others as well. David Smerdon is interested and I can almost guarantee that Andrew Fitz and Denis will like the idea. Initially we might tap into the "elite" kids, but hopefully it can grow.

There are a large number of juniors who go to the ASCC and this can be billed as a natural progression, once you go to Uni. I wanted to co-locate it with the ASCC to start with, to use natural synergy, but that got clobbered.

firegoat7
24-05-2005, 11:46 PM
Hello,

Why not hold the event in between the first and second semester, or at the end of semester 2?

Cheers Fg7

jenni
25-05-2005, 10:08 AM
Hello,

Why not hold the event in between the first and second semester, or at the end of semester 2?

Cheers Fg7

I am leaning towards in between the two semesters.

Libby
25-05-2005, 10:52 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :evil: :evil:

see how we blend into one ...

1min_grandmaster
25-05-2005, 11:00 AM
I think that running this between semesters is not going to be so successful as running it say about week 3-5 of semester. The reason is that uni chess clubs are inactive during the break between semesters, so members dont get to talk about the event to encourage others go to. Most students will leave it to the last minute to decide whether to go (like how they do their assignments, prepare for their exams, etc). If it is run during the break, students wont get the chance to be persuaded. Also, I know that most of our members are likely to be thinking of other things such as going on holidays and generally doing things not involving thinking (exams are stressful).

For the NSW Teams Challenge, Sydney Uni sent a total of 5 teams and 19 players (we got 1 odd player from elsewhere to fill up our 5th team) partly because of the timing of the event. Our club was able to publicise the event during meetings, people would talk about it, friends would try to encourage others, etc. If you run it during week 3-5, I think Sydney Uni can again send about 20 players. If you run it during the break, I reckon we will not even be able to send 10.

Finally, regarding getting 'interest' for such an event. It is very dangerous to just get 'interest' from players. This is what happened to the last attempt at this event, many clubs showed 'interest' but they didn't do anything more than that, there were no serious attempts at getting people to come. Try to push the clubs into sending players. Ask them to give publicity for the event. This is another reason why running the event between semesters is bad in my opinion. Players will only show 'interest', but come the holidays, they will not show up.

pax
25-05-2005, 11:39 AM
At the moment this still has "unofficial" status, but I am hoping for it to become an "official" one soon. (Denis will be putting a proposal to the ACF).

I think it's a great idea.

I think staff members should be permitted, but since I'm a member of that category, perhaps I'm biased. After all, the students will kick our butts anyway, and some of us are not *that* old :)

If you plan on having team prizes, you should prevent players from the same Uni meeting, but if there is a massive imbalance in numbers from various Unis, then you may need to permit it (e.g I could imagine half of the players coming from Sydney Uni). Perhaps a decision for the arbiter on the day?

pax
25-05-2005, 11:42 AM
I think that running this between semesters is not going to be so successful as running it say about week 3-5 of semester. The reason is that uni chess clubs are inactive during the break between semesters, so members dont get to talk about the event to encourage others go to.

That's great for a local event, but if you want interstate players it must be held in vacation time.

Also remember that if you use the mid-year break, that the break varies from state to state. There is usually at least a 1 week overlap, but you need to check.

Garvinator
25-05-2005, 11:52 AM
That's great for a local event, but if you want interstate players it must be held in vacation time.
Before getting through the remaining posts that I hadnt read, which started with Libby's, I had the thought that if it is to be a truly national event, then it must be held in the holidays.

If you hold it during the semester, even sem 2, then it is 'easy' for sydney players to travel across town for a couple of days, but would be very difficult for interstate players to travel for a number of days, which they would be required to do.

I think the goal of the event must be remembered, NATIONAL. But then, holding during the mid year holidays runs into a lot of big tournaments :eek: Gold Coast, Caloundra, Uni Open, Anu Open. Might be difficult to get players to travel to another tournament when they can goes to these tournaments instead/as well.

firegoat7
25-05-2005, 11:59 AM
Jenni,


If its possible to get a list of interested players then maybe you could coerce the universities into offering $50 per player towards prizemony (ie contribute $50 for their reps to the tournament fund). I think that would be realistically attainable, especially if you have secured a university as a host before the event. Moreover, if planned longterm you ought to be able to get, at the very least free camping ground for the event, so as to reduce accomodation costs to the players.

Cheers Fg7

jenni
25-05-2005, 05:21 PM
Thanks everyone - the feedback is great. I agree that for interstate participation it has to be in the semester break. July is pretty crowded, which is why I initially thought February as it seemed a very "empty" month.

Does prize-money matter? I know it is a chess thing, but it seems out of character with what happens in other Inter University things? Long term I would like to see this included as part of the University Games and the only prizes there are pennants and trophies.

The 2005 Southern University Games is expecting 2,500 competitors from 17 Universities. Why is this possible? Do they get funding for travel from their universities, or is there a different attitude? It sounds heaps of fun, so maybe Uni students more prepared to spend money for this?

Garvinator
25-05-2005, 05:39 PM
Does prize-money matter? I know it is a chess thing, but it seems out of character with what happens in other Inter University things? Long term I would like to see this included as part of the University Games and the only prizes there are pennants and trophies.

The 2005 Southern University Games is expecting 2,500 competitors from 17 Universities. Why is this possible? Do they get funding for travel from their universities, or is there a different attitude? It sounds heaps of fun, so maybe Uni students more prepared to spend money for this?
I would say that for most of these events that there is some sort of uni help, but add to this, there would be some decent recognition for the individual/teams after they did well at the uni games.
This would not happen for chess. So the players attending for the chess competition would be most likely funding their own travel and would not get any social recognition afterwards.

Therefore, most likely it would be very similiar to another chess event. As previously mentioned, uni students generally dont have much money, therefore they would need prizemoney to at least get back the money they have spent.

Libby
25-05-2005, 06:13 PM
I would say that for most of these events that there is some sort of uni help, but add to this, there would be some decent recognition for the individual/teams after they did well at the uni games.
This would not happen for chess. So the players attending for the chess competition would be most likely funding their own travel and would not get any social recognition afterwards.

Therefore, most likely it would be very similiar to another chess event. As previously mentioned, uni students generally dont have much money, therefore they would need prizemoney to at least get back the money they have spent.

Sigh. :wall:

So Uni students who play netball must be richer than Uni students who play chess? And get lots of recognition for it?

Oops - that would be Women's Sport. I forget, even at a National League level those people pretty much pay their own way. Amazing. Some of them are even known to be students.

I'm not "against" the argument that a proportion of chess-playing Uni students might opt our because they can't afford it. I'm just sick of this old chestnut that chess somehow requires all this money to be thrown at players, administrators, arbiters etc to facilitate their participation.

How good a game is chess really? If these impoverished Uni types will travel to kick or whack a ball around for a ribbon or a cup, why isn't chess good enough to attract them on that basis?

And ball kickers, shooters and whackers also have their regular competitions through the week and on weekends at home, so a Uni event is far from a "once-only" opportunity for them as well. Some of these kicking, whacking & shooting activities even have quite hefty equipment costs, weekly fees, insurance or registration costs.

I guess you don't see your sport as stacking up then?

& BTW - no matter how much prizemoney you have, not everyone wins it. I guess those who have no expectation of winning money, no matter what tournament we are talking about, might as well not enter? What would be the point for them? The pleasure of participation? Surely not!

Kerry Stead
25-05-2005, 07:51 PM
Sigh. :wall:

So Uni students who play netball must be richer than Uni students who play chess? And get lots of recognition for it?

Oops - that would be Women's Sport. I forget, even at a National League level those people pretty much pay their own way. Amazing. Some of them are even known to be students.

I'm not "against" the argument that a proportion of chess-playing Uni students might opt our because they can't afford it. I'm just sick of this old chestnut that chess somehow requires all this money to be thrown at players, administrators, arbiters etc to facilitate their participation.

How good a game is chess really? If these impoverished Uni types will travel to kick or whack a ball around for a ribbon or a cup, why isn't chess good enough to attract them on that basis?

And ball kickers, shooters and whackers also have their regular competitions through the week and on weekends at home, so a Uni event is far from a "once-only" opportunity for them as well. Some of these kicking, whacking & shooting activities even have quite hefty equipment costs, weekly fees, insurance or registration costs.

I guess you don't see your sport as stacking up then?

& BTW - no matter how much prizemoney you have, not everyone wins it. I guess those who have no expectation of winning money, no matter what tournament we are talking about, might as well not enter? What would be the point for them? The pleasure of participation? Surely not!
Well put Libby ... if you can't play for the enjoyment of the game, and the pride that can come with representing your uni (or whatever group it is) then why play it at all??

Libby
25-05-2005, 08:02 PM
Well put Libby ... if you can't play for the enjoyment of the game, and the pride that can come with representing your uni (or whatever group it is) then why play it at all??

It's just this continually difficult idea I grapple with that I played sport for 20 odd years and never had a chance to win any money. I have a lot of rather ordinary looking trophies. Some of them I couldn't give a toss about but a few were pretty significant to me.

I liked my sport. That's why I played and I'm pretty sorry now that injuries have kicked me into the sad old world of aqua aerobics and pilates (can't stand either so I do nothing).

I'd suggest that amongst the positives in Jenni's proposal, are the opportunity to represent your Uni and the opportunity to enjoy an social environment with your peer group centred around your chosen sport.

And if you want financial support & recognition from your Uni perhaps you could get off your backside and sell them the whole idea. But don't try selling them how great it all is when you are operating from a position of needing heaps of prizemoney for you to bother to turn up.

How do you make the general population think chess is a great game when you need money for the "average-joe" to want to make the effort to play?

Kerry Stead
25-05-2005, 08:24 PM
It's just this continually difficult idea I grapple with that I played sport for 20 odd years and never had a chance to win any money. I have a lot of rather ordinary looking trophies. Some of them I couldn't give a toss about but a few were pretty significant to me.

I liked my sport. That's why I played and I'm pretty sorry now that injuries have kicked me into the sad old world of aqua aerobics and pilates (can't stand either so I do nothing).

I'd suggest that amongst the positives in Jenni's proposal, are the opportunity to represent your Uni and the opportunity to enjoy an social environment with your peer group centred around your chosen sport.

And if you want financial support & recognition from your Uni perhaps you could get off your backside and sell them the whole idea. But don't try selling them how great it all is when you are operating from a position of needing heaps of prizemoney for you to bother to turn up.

How do you make the general population think chess is a great game when you need money for the "average-joe" to want to make the effort to play?
Particularly when you consider that in a number of other sports, the Uni Games features a number of competitors who are right at the top of their game on a national level. As far as something like chess is concerned, Smerdon & Zhao could fit this category, and possibly Rej & Xie ... but its a bit of a stretch to suggest others are in such a calibre ...

jenni
25-05-2005, 09:04 PM
I guess I'd like to have something where people want to come, because it is a total package - a chance to play some good chess, but also to socialise and really enjoy the event.

I just don't see prize-money as fitting into this. If nothing else, as soon as serious money is on offer, it creates a level of stress and perhaps bad feeling. If we can get money donated, I would like to see it go towards making the entry fee really cheap and sponsoring a social evening.

Kerry Stead
25-05-2005, 09:13 PM
I guess I'd like to have something where people want to come, because it is a total package - a chance to play some good chess, but also to socialise and really enjoy the event.

I just don't see prize-money as fitting into this. If nothing else, as soon as serious money is on offer, it creates a level of stress and perhaps bad feeling. If we can get money donated, I would like to see it go towards making the entry fee really cheap and sponsoring a social evening.
I'd have to agree with you there Jenni ... it shouldn't be about the money or other prizes ... big focus on the social side, as well as the actual chess itself.

Mischa
25-05-2005, 09:35 PM
I agree also but you are talking about students, and money is always an issue!
I remember the argument about not giving juniors much prize money in tournaments as it ends up in the parent's pocket....but that indirectly covers chess costs

firegoat7
26-05-2005, 12:44 AM
Kerry,

How is the hiphop going? I know next to nothing about but have heard a couple of hill top hoods songs...I like left foot right foot ..not that this means anything, particular or amusing.

Cheers Fg7 :eek: :hmm: :whistle:

firegoat7
26-05-2005, 12:46 AM
Victorians :rolleyes:

firegoat7
26-05-2005, 12:51 AM
I liked my sport.


You really are sicker then we thought.

jenni
26-05-2005, 09:40 AM
You really are sicker then we thought.
Tolerance and forgiveness please - she has left the dark side and is a convert (??).

Oepty
26-05-2005, 10:16 AM
I think that this competition would be a great thing if it could go ahead.
Rehashing a few points. I too think Febuary would be a very poor choice of timing. Mid year or perhaps even the first semester break would be alot better.
I believe Trevor Tao is still a uni student so he could go along side Smerdon and Zhao. Aaron Guthrie would be the second best uni student in Adelaide.
One issue that might need clarifying is this for only Australian or open to international students as well.
Scott

Kerry Stead
26-05-2005, 12:07 PM
Kerry,

How is the hiphop going? I know next to nothing about but have heard a couple of hill top hoods songs...I like left foot right foot ..not that this means anything, particular or amusing.

Cheers Fg7 :eek: :hmm: :whistle:
Its a pretty decent album ... although I actually like the hidden track the most on that album - rewind from the start of track 1 ... hilarious track!
If you're looking for good Aussie hip-hop, the new album 'Who Am I' by Drapht should be outstanding ... but I digress ...

As for the comp, timing it in the middle of the year seems like the most logical option, for the reasons Jason & others have pointed out - people need to be in a position to know about it if this tourney is to be a success.
Perhaps research for the tourney should include mid-year uni breaks across the country, as well as when the Uni Games are on, if there is a thought that one day it might be added to the program there ... I mean frisbee's on the program as far as I know, so would chess really be so out-of-place?

jenni
26-05-2005, 12:28 PM
I think that this competition would be a great thing if it could go ahead.
Rehashing a few points. I too think Febuary would be a very poor choice of timing. Mid year or perhaps even the first semester break would be alot better.
I believe Trevor Tao is still a uni student so he could go along side Smerdon and Zhao. Aaron Guthrie would be the second best uni student in Adelaide.
One issue that might need clarifying is this for only Australian or open to international students as well.
Scott

Yes Feb is definitely out - as I said I picked it because it seemed a nice empty month, but it doesn't look good.

I think the first semester break would be bad, because that is when the Young Masters normally runs and there is some overlap.

I would think international students as well - any views people?

jenni
26-05-2005, 12:37 PM
As for the comp, timing it in the middle of the year seems like the most logical option, for the reasons Jason & others have pointed out - people need to be in a position to know about it if this tourney is to be a success.
Perhaps research for the tourney should include mid-year uni breaks across the country, as well as when the Uni Games are on, if there is a thought that one day it might be added to the program there ... I mean frisbee's on the program as far as I know, so would chess really be so out-of-place?

Ultimate frisbee please! (not that I know what ultimate frisbee is.).

The Southern University Games are 4th to 7th July in La Trobe Valley
Eastern University Games are 3rd to 7th July in Tamworth
The Northern University Games are 3rd to 7th July in Cairns (know which one I would like to go to!)


So yes long term it shouldn't be too hard to include chess, although a shame to split it across different venues. Anyway we are a long way off that.

Garvinator
26-05-2005, 12:57 PM
Instead of trying to run the competition by itself, would it be possible to get chess included in the uni games ;)

Oepty
26-05-2005, 01:32 PM
I think the first semester break would be bad, because that is when the Young Masters normally runs and there is some overlap.

Jenni. Well hold them at the same venue, just before or just after the Young Masters. Even if this is not possible, I personally think that might gain more players from holding it earlier in the year even if you lose a couple of players to the young masters. Something I believe is worth looking at.
As for prizes I think prizes would be good and whatever you might think of players who might play only for prizes I think you would get more players if there was prizes. As to where the money comes from is the more difficult question. In the initial stages at least it would not be from entry fees.
Who exactly are the organisers of the event?
Scott

jenni
26-05-2005, 02:50 PM
Jenni. Well hold them at the same venue, just before or just after the Young Masters. Even if this is not possible, I personally think that might gain more players from holding it earlier in the year even if you lose a couple of players to the young masters. Something I believe is worth looking at.


I think what I have to do is look at the various Uni calendars. Shannon is of the opinion that it would be hard to find a week when all Unis are on holiday, except in the July break. I know this is true for schools, which is why it is so hard to organise something that is holidays for all. I don't believe clashing with the Young Masters/Doeberl would be a good idea. All the Uni Games are held in July and they attract about 8,000 students.


As for prizes I think prizes would be good and whatever you might think of players who might play only for prizes I think you would get more players if there was prizes. As to where the money comes from is the more difficult question. In the initial stages at least it would not be from entry fees.

I am not having money prizes - trophies and a pennant for the Uni, as they do in Uni games. Any money after costs will be used to subsidise a social evening.



Who exactly are the organisers of the event?
Scott

Tony and I are overall organisers. Charles Zworestine will be involved with the initial Sydney one, if he has time. I am prepared to give it a few years to try and get it going (unless it is a hopeless flop in the first year. )

jenni
26-05-2005, 03:06 PM
Instead of trying to run the competition by itself, would it be possible to get chess included in the uni games ;)
It's tempting, as there would be enormous benefits in having all the social stuff pre-organised. However I think we first have to show that Uni chess players are prepared to go to a comp like this. Also we would then be splitting participants across a number of different Uni games and probably none of them would be viable initially - if we are assuming 20 to 30 in the first year, it doesn't work too well, splitting them across the various Uni games. We would also need more organisers, as I can't organise a comp in Cairns, Tamworth and La Trobe in the same week. So maybe start with a national one and if it successful for a couple of years start talking to the Uni organisers about including chess in the various games. It would have the benefit of less travel (and a great social program), but the negative of only getting together with a subset of chess players.

Kerry Stead
26-05-2005, 03:07 PM
Ultimate frisbee please! (not that I know what ultimate frisbee is.).

The Southern University Games are 4th to 7th July in La Trobe Valley
Eastern University Games are 3rd to 7th July in Tamworth
The Northern University Games are 3rd to 7th July in Cairns (know which one I would like to go to!)


So yes long term it shouldn't be too hard to include chess, although a shame to split it across different venues. Anyway we are a long way off that.
There is also the Australian Uni Games in September (this year 25 Sept-1 October in Brisbane) which could be something to try to tie-in with (this is what I was originally thinking of, rather than the various regional games). I'm not sure how this fits in the with various calendars of the universities around Australia, but obviously there are significant numbers that go to this event, so it can't be that poorly timed.

Oepty
26-05-2005, 03:10 PM
I think what I have to do is look at the various Uni calendars. Shannon is of the opinion that it would be hard to find a week when all Unis are on holiday, except in the July break. I know this is true for schools, which is why it is so hard to organise something that is holidays for all. I don't believe clashing with the Young Masters/Doeberl would be a good idea. All the Uni Games are held in July and they attract about 8,000 students.

Not having holidays at the same time might be an issue for mid semester breaks.



I am not having money prizes - trophies and a pennant for the Uni, as they do in Uni games. Any money after costs will be used to subsidise a social evening.

What if someone was prepared to give you money to go towards prizes and only prizes? I was considering doing this myself although it would only have been a small amount. I would not be willing to put money up for something that is not chess, ie a social night.



Tony and I are overall organisers. Charles Zworestine will be involved with the initial Sydney one, if he has time. I am prepared to give it a few years to try and get it going (unless it is a hopeless flop in the first year. )

Well I wish you and Tony all the best in organising the event and hope it is a success. If you cannot get a tournament going without prize money then I don't think anybody can. I do have my doubts. If there is anything I can do to help then you have my email address and I will see if I can do it.
Scott

jenni
26-05-2005, 03:11 PM
There is also the Australian Uni Games in September (this year 25 Sept-1 October in Brisbane) which could be something to try to tie-in with (this is what I was originally thinking of, rather than the various regional games). I'm not sure how this fits in the with various calendars of the universities around Australia, but obviously there are significant numbers that go to this event, so it can't be that poorly timed.

Ok - this is what I thought of initially, but hadn't come across an Australian one when I googled

Main problem with October is it doesn't suit me - I already organise NECG then and I can't organise both at the same time (this is known as an overworked organiser). Of course if someone else wishes to step forward and organise the Uni comp, then October might be viable.

jenni
26-05-2005, 03:13 PM
If there is anything I can do to help then you have my email address and I will see if I can do it.
Scott

Thanks Scott - much appreciated.

jenni
26-05-2005, 03:38 PM
I've had a look at some Uni Calendars for this year.

Mid semester break

ANU - 3/9 to 18/9
Sydney - 24/9 to 2/10
Adelaide - 24/9 to 2/10
Qld -24/9 to 2/10
Melbourne 17/9 to 2/10

So you have almost all with a common week, but not all and also a lot of Unis only seem to have 1 week break then. Don't know if this is normal?

Still think July is better (and it suits me).

How does the regional Uni games vs Australian Uni games work? Do the best teams go from the regional games to the Australian one? Wouldn't it be nice to get so many Uni students playing chess that we needed to do that? My ambitions are growing. :)

ElevatorEscapee
26-05-2005, 06:08 PM
Hi Jenni,

This link might help you with dates for a few more Unis:

2005 Uni Dates (http://www.avcc.edu.au/documents/universities/semester_dates/avcc_2006.pdf)

jenni
26-05-2005, 06:38 PM
Hi Jenni,

This link might help you with dates for a few more Unis:

2005 Uni Dates (http://www.avcc.edu.au/documents/universities/semester_dates/avcc_2006.pdf)
Thank-you - that's fantastic!

shaun
26-05-2005, 07:42 PM
I mean frisbee's on the program as far as I know, so would chess really be so out-of-place?

I wouldn't use Ultimate as part of a "if you're there we should be there" argument. If there was ever a sport that could be considered "the" Uni sport, Ultimate would probably be it.

pax
27-05-2005, 01:48 PM
I wouldn't use Ultimate as part of a "if you're there we should be there" argument. If there was ever a sport that could be considered "the" Uni sport, Ultimate would probably be it.
And you won't (normally) catch Ultimate players moaning about prizemoney ;)

Alan Shore
29-05-2005, 11:53 PM
Sigh. :wall:

So Uni students who play netball must be richer than Uni students who play chess? And get lots of recognition for it?

Chess is not netball, by a long way - it is not physical and is not a team sport.


Oops - that would be Women's Sport. I forget, even at a National League level those people pretty much pay their own way. Amazing. Some of them are even known to be students.

My oh my! [/aqua] (the band, heh). I hardly think playing the gender card changes anything here.


I'm not "against" the argument that a proportion of chess-playing Uni students might opt our because they can't afford it. I'm just sick of this old chestnut that chess somehow requires all this money to be thrown at players, administrators, arbiters etc to facilitate their participation.

Please tell me, why university students should be so desperate to use their limited resources to play chess when they can do it a) locally b) on the net(!) and c) for no apparent glory? If it is not part of any officially sanctioned university games there will be no recognition of achievement anyway and there are certainly no chess uni scholarships unlike netball.


How good a game is chess really? If these impoverished Uni types will travel to kick or whack a ball around for a ribbon or a cup, why isn't chess good enough to attract them on that basis?

See above. Primarily I believe the fact it isn't a team sport.


& BTW - no matter how much prizemoney you have, not everyone wins it. I guess those who have no expectation of winning money, no matter what tournament we are talking about, might as well not enter? What would be the point for them? The pleasure of participation? Surely not!

You must be aware of the emphasis placed upon sporting participation over chess participation - I see it all the time when I teach chess in schools - the school encourages sport spectating (!) and participation over engaging in activities like chess - no wonder it's a difficult task to keep up numbers.

Edit: I don't want this to be seen as a opposing Libby just for the sake of it but rather a defence of why chess players are less willing to travel so far for little reward and an opposition to the faulty analogy of netball in its place.

Alan Shore
29-05-2005, 11:58 PM
Jenni, I think it's great you're spearheading an initiative that idealistically would be a great thing but I have concerns that your efforts may be wasted.. I can tell you right now, approximately zero QLDers would travel interstate for a university competition. Geographically, we are simply too isolated - if we were in Europe it would be a great success but the distances between us are simply too excessive. You cannot just appeal to players, it would have to be to the universities themselves so that they would be able to officially sanction such events.. without their support I can only see history repeating itself.

Libby
30-05-2005, 07:36 AM
Chess is not netball, by a long way - it is not physical and is not a team sport..

My knees would be more aware of that fact than yours :owned: Actually, I think Jenni's proposal was aimed at giving the event team atmosphere. Partly because she has seen the pleasure the players get from playing as part of a team at Aus Schools. Even the pleasure to be gained from the "team" atmosphere we try to engender in our ACT junior contingent at the Aus Juniors.

If that doesn't work for you - it doesn't work for you. I represented my school in debating and I enjoyed being part of that.



My oh my! [/aqua] (the band, heh). I hardly think playing the gender card changes anything here.

Except to point out that many players in other sports (and especially female players) receive scant recognition and little or no remuneration to play their game of choice.


Please tell me, why university students should be so desperate to use their limited resources to play chess when they can do it a) locally b) on the net(!) and c) for no apparent glory? If it is not part of any officially sanctioned university games there will be no recognition of achievement anyway and there are certainly no chess uni scholarships unlike netball.

No reason whatsoever I guess. Representing your Uni in chess in a fledgling competition which may (one day) lead to a bigger event or even an opportunity to lobby for inclusion in the Uni games evidently holds no appeal.

Unlike all those Uni games girls, all on their netball scholarships ...


See above. Primarily I believe the fact it isn't a team sport.

See above :rolleyes:


You must be aware of the emphasis placed upon sporting participation over chess participation - I see it all the time when I teach chess in schools - the school encourages sport spectating (!) and participation over engaging in activities like chess - no wonder it's a difficult task to keep up numbers.

You think I don't know this? I was one of those rolling my eyes at you guys in the school corridors :rolleyes: What are you going to do to change that? Just lie back and say "that's the way it is" or work to support something that could build your game and it's standing in your University community? Why should your Uni give a toss about chess if there is no event through which participation is encouraged and prestige can be gained? I don't think they are going to be too interested in the casual games at the Uni Bar. Is that as far as Australian university students can go?

I just think chess can't hope for "sports-style" recognition (whether you consider it a sport or not), until it behaves like a sport. You give your Uni no opportunity to support your activities as their representatives.

jenni
30-05-2005, 09:51 AM
Jenni, I think it's great you're spearheading an initiative that idealistically would be a great thing but I have concerns that your efforts may be wasted.. I can tell you right now, approximately zero QLDers would travel interstate for a university competition. Geographically, we are simply too isolated - if we were in Europe it would be a great success but the distances between us are simply too excessive. You cannot just appeal to players, it would have to be to the universities themselves so that they would be able to officially sanction such events.. without their support I can only see history repeating itself.
You have raised some valid points. Obviously distance is a problem, which is presumably why the Uni games have regional tournaments. However I don't know why chess people always are so negative and don't give things a go. Yes one was tried in Sydney and it failed, however that doesn't mean that another one might not be successful. If Queensland and SA don't come that is sad, but it is not a reason for not getting something going. Maybe it gets called the Southern Universities Chess Championships and eventually QLD organises a Northern Universities one, but at least something gets going.

Start small and build it up - can't see any reason not to try it.

EGOR
30-05-2005, 10:03 AM
You have raised some valid points. Obviously distance is a problem, which is presumably why the Uni games have regional tournaments. However I don't know why chess people always are so negative and don't give things a go. Yes one was tried in Sydney and it failed, however that doesn't mean that another one might not be successful. If Queensland and SA don't come that is sad, but it is not a reason for not getting something going. Maybe it gets called the Southern Universities Chess Championships and eventually QLD organises a Northern Universities one, but at least something gets going.

Start small and build it up - can't see any reason not to try it.
I agree, keep at it. :thumbsup:

pax
30-05-2005, 10:41 AM
It strikes me that one reason to include staff in the competition, is that staff are the ones who are in a position to sustain the Uni clubs long-term. Having a someone who is at the Uni for longer than 4 years is a definite advantage. All the more so if they have a handy office to stash equipment in!

jenni
30-05-2005, 11:04 AM
It strikes me that one reason to include staff in the competition, is that staff are the ones who are in a position to sustain the Uni clubs long-term. Having a someone who is at the Uni for longer than 4 years is a definite advantage. All the more so if they have a handy office to stash equipment in!

Good point - also if we want to have acceptability by Uni's and get some sort of official status, having staff able to lobby from within, will be very useful.

Thunderspirit
30-05-2005, 05:39 PM
You have raised some valid points. Obviously distance is a problem, which is presumably why the Uni games have regional tournaments. However I don't know why chess people always are so negative and don't give things a go. Yes one was tried in Sydney and it failed, however that doesn't mean that another one might not be successful. If Queensland and SA don't come that is sad, but it is not a reason for not getting something going. Maybe it gets called the Southern Universities Chess Championships and eventually QLD organises a Northern Universities one, but at least something gets going.

Start small and build it up - can't see any reason not to try it.

I had a thought! And yes it hurt! How about doing a tele-chess type match using Blitzin?? Or perhaps both an OTB event as well....

Oepty
30-05-2005, 05:51 PM
It strikes me that one reason to include staff in the competition, is that staff are the ones who are in a position to sustain the Uni clubs long-term. Having a someone who is at the Uni for longer than 4 years is a definite advantage. All the more so if they have a handy office to stash equipment in!

Robin Wedding's office at Adelaide Uni has served as storage space for a number of years.

I think including staff would be a good idea, it increases the potential numbers for what is probably going to be a small tournament.
I have thought about who from Adelaide is likely to go and I can't really think on any who would really be attracted to go to an event like this. Maybe one name but I think that is a bit of outside chance. Having said that the Clubs Association at Adel Uni has been very supportive of chess so they might support sending someone accross, especially if they are not giving money to a Uni Open next year, which seems highly likely.
Scott

Alan Shore
30-05-2005, 09:24 PM
I had a thought! And yes it hurt! How about doing a tele-chess type match using Blitzin?? Or perhaps both an OTB event as well....

Well that was my suggestion ages ago to use Blitzin and the old Icon server... but any kind of online thing might be a go.

Alan Shore
30-05-2005, 09:29 PM
The non-chess board is a waste of time.
Debate on the non-chess board is pointless.
Religious debate on the non-chess board is futile vainity.
Scott

Scott, I don't like your sig - it insults me as someone who (used to at least) post frequently there. Obviously the only waste of time is being completely dogmatic and not having proper discussions with people or giving due consideration to their arguments. If you don't like it, then don't post there but STFU about it. :hand:

ElevatorEscapee
30-05-2005, 10:39 PM
Actually I quite like Freddy/Scott's signature.

(It used to be the much more banal: "Don't call me Scotty, please").

Now it contains a curious thought provoker:

The non-chess board is a waste of time.
Debate on the non-chess board is pointless.
Religious debate on the non-chess board is futile vainity.

On first glances, it looks like there is a mispelling of the word "vanity", however, closer inspection reveals the inherent cleverness of the phrase:

"Futile vainity" is a rather interesting tautology, involving a double negative.

Normally if one is arguing something "in vain", then their argument is doomed to failure.

And if something is "futile", then opposing it will lead to failure.

Therefore if one is trying futiley to argue in vain, then evidently they are failing to argue in vain.

Which would suggest that they are actually arguing successfully.

I'm confused... :eek:

jenni
30-05-2005, 10:58 PM
I had a thought! And yes it hurt! How about doing a tele-chess type match using Blitzin?? Or perhaps both an OTB event as well....

It might come to that - however I really wanted the social side as well - I really think it is what that age group needs.

I did think if we ended up with a Southern Uni and Northern Uni comp, then the "finals" could be an internet match.

jenni
30-05-2005, 11:03 PM
I have thought about who from Adelaide is likely to go and I can't really think on any who would really be attracted to go to an event like this.
I thought someone like Tristan Stevens might go.

We'll just have to see. I remember in 1999 the second ASCC was held in Canberra and then the event was going to be held in Adelaide and I was very sceptical that school teams would travel that far, but they did. Now I know that was funded by parents, and this is different, but it can be amazing what people will do if the event is perceived as having value.

Spiny Norman
31-05-2005, 07:55 AM
Scott, I don't like your sig - it insults me ...

Did someone get out of bed on the wrong side this morning? ;)

pax
31-05-2005, 10:31 AM
I had a thought! And yes it hurt! How about doing a tele-chess type match using Blitzin?? Or perhaps both an OTB event as well....

Even better - use a free server so everyone can play!

Oepty
01-06-2005, 06:11 PM
Scott, I don't like your sig - it insults me as someone who (used to at least) post frequently there. Obviously the only waste of time is being completely dogmatic and not having proper discussions with people or giving due consideration to their arguments. If you don't like it, then don't post there but STFU about it. :hand:

My signature was meant more as a shot at myself, not anybody else. A bit of a reminder not to spend to much time there. As an explanation,
The non-chess board is a waste of time because that is my view of the vast majority of the time I have spend there.
Debate on the non-chess board is to me pointless because I think that the vast majority of debate on acheived nothing and added nothing to my life.
I used slightly stronger wording for religous debate because I feel more strongly about what I said debate for religous debate.
I am sorry that you found it insulting, I did not think that it would insult anybody and certainly was not meant to be. This though is no excuse for the insult. I will change my signature, although I am not sure what to, maybe blank.
Scott
P.S. It was a spelling mistake which shows how time I to write it.

Oepty
02-06-2005, 02:32 PM
I thought someone like Tristan Stevens might go.

We'll just have to see. I remember in 1999 the second ASCC was held in Canberra and then the event was going to be held in Adelaide and I was very sceptical that school teams would travel that far, but they did. Now I know that was funded by parents, and this is different, but it can be amazing what people will do if the event is perceived as having value.

Rather selective quoting I would have thought. I guess he might go. Anyone might go especially if they can get some financial support. I have had nothing much to do with Adelaide Uni this year, but I know it is alot lot smaller than the previous few years. By the end of this year it seems none of Andrew (already left) and Alex Saint, Robin Wedding or myself will be involved at the club so the future of a strong club at Adelaide Uni will require someone else to take the lead. Hopefully it will happen but I have my doubts.

Scott

tritty
03-05-2006, 12:32 AM
Yeah, i might consider going if there was some way that the Uni owuld support me, although the Uni workload since i got back from the Doeberl/Junior masters has been nothing short of a nightmare, so that would have to be taken into account as well.
Having already played two interstate tournaments this year, i probably can't play a third, although I won't rule it out.
I definately support the idea regardless of whether i can go play or not.

Cheers,

Tristan