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Thunderspirit
28-04-2005, 09:24 PM
Chess World are organising a one week coaching trip to Shanghai, China. While an exact quote is not available it will be soon but an estimate is $2500. The trip will require about 10 to attend and parents are more than welcome.

Knowledge of the Chinese language is not a requirement as teaching will be in English. I will be attending to help in the organisation of the tour, coaching will be provided by our Chinese hosts and is suitable for ALL standards.

Please feel free to 'pm' me if you have any questions.




Lee Forace 28/4/2005


Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter

arosar
28-04-2005, 09:29 PM
See, this is what I don't bloody understand. You're free to come here and freely promote your business but the chesschat people charge the poor volunteer chess SACA for ads?

I mean I just don't get it.

If we need a policy, then surely we need a policy around commercial announcements.

AR

Thunderspirit
28-04-2005, 09:37 PM
This is not a business ad, but a service annoucement. Chess World makes no profit from this event, just a good will excercise.

Lee Forace 28/4/2005

Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter

ursogr8
28-04-2005, 10:06 PM
See, this is what I don't bloody understand. You're free to come here and freely promote your business but the chesschat people charge the poor volunteer chess SACA for ads?

I mean I just don't get it.

If we need a policy, then surely we need a policy around commercial announcements.

AR

hi AR

I just noticed you have got three green globes. Well done mate. Had them for long. Congrats....
Obviously a recognition of fearless sensible comments.


Good point of yours.
Warrants some thought.

Which of these three organisations are affliliated with the ACF


cc.com
SACA
Chess World.


See, it is not your board. It is not democratic. It is not your policy.
All these things we have learnt from Master Bill.


Sorry to see your FICS tourney fell through. Being a chess-community initiative I wished it all the best. Matt could have been the extra player; I notice him around at the moment at St Helena.

regards
starter

arosar
28-04-2005, 10:08 PM
This is not a business ad, but a service annoucement. Chess World makes no profit from this event, just a good will excercise.

Lee Forace 28/4/2005

Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter

Look mate, don't bulls**t the bulls**t artist alright.

AR

ursogr8
28-04-2005, 10:09 PM
This is not a business ad, but a service annoucement. Chess World makes no profit from this event, just a good will excercise.

Lee Forace 28/4/2005

Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter

Lee

If I said I don't believe that I hope you don't feel offended.

regards
starter

WhiteElephant
28-04-2005, 10:22 PM
Hi Lee, I was wondering, why doesn't the guru do his own dirty work? (ie. post this himself)

Comrade
28-04-2005, 11:26 PM
Chess World are organising a one week coaching trip to Shanghai, China. While an exact quote is not available it will be soon but an estimate is $2500. The trip will require about 10 to attend and parents are more than welcome.

Knowledge of the Chinese language is not a requirement as teaching will be in English. I will be attending to help in the organisation of the tour, coaching will be provided by our Chinese hosts and is suitable for ALL standards.

Please feel free to 'pm' me if you have any questions.




Lee Forace 28/4/2005


Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter


Hey Lee,

Who are the coaches? Any GMs? This is kind of an expensive once off event to hold just to get coaching... I bet the Guru is up to another money making scheme... which sucker parents will fall for this one? :P

The_Wise_Man
29-04-2005, 12:38 AM
The moment you say "Chess World", it is promotion regardless of whether money is made from the tour or not....

Wise

jenni
29-04-2005, 09:47 AM
Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter

Gosh Lee - that is an impressive rise through the ranks - haven't you only been in Melbourne a few weeks? :D

PS When is the planned trip if it happens? We will be there 28th June to 3rd July en route to Belfort.

Ian Rout
29-04-2005, 11:32 AM
This is not a business ad, but a service annoucement. Chess World makes no profit from this event, just a good will excercise.


Seeing that the company hopes to do more business as the result of the goodwill I don't think they can be separated.

However I don't see why things that may be of interest to members should not be mentioned and discussed just because they are run by a commercial enterprise.

arosar
29-04-2005, 11:36 AM
However I don't see why things that may be of interest to members should not be mentioned and discussed just because they are run by a commercial enterprise.

The issue I raised was around charging a volunteer organisation for ad space while commercial firms can freely make these announcements which are, essentially, ads. I'm not calling for a gag.

AR

ursogr8
29-04-2005, 11:48 AM
Seeing that the company hopes to do more business as the result of the goodwill I don't think they can be separated.

However I don't see why things that may be of interest to members should not be mentioned and discussed just because they are run by a commercial enterprise.

Ian
I am not calling for a gag either. Not that I have an influence on the bb policy anyway.
It would be rich for me to call for a gag given that I have probably the most posts publicizing local events.

And I don't have much of a problem with cc.com charging; although, if they plastered the front screen I guess there would be some user reaction.

Now, if K. would offer super-premium membership so that all adverts are filtered out then maybe ..... :uhoh:



starter

Rincewind
29-04-2005, 11:49 AM
The issue I raised was around charging a volunteer organisation for ad space while commercial firms can freely make these announcements which are, essentially, ads. I'm not calling for a gag.

Starting a thread is a free service. It is the banner at the top of every page which is being paid for.

arosar
29-04-2005, 11:54 AM
Starting a thread is a free service. It is the banner at the top of every page which is being paid for.

Now why didn't I think of that Baz mate? Fancy that.

If it was that simple, I'd be convinced.

(By the way . . . . nah, not right now. Too soon.)

AR

shaun
29-04-2005, 12:30 PM
If this is an Adelaide Uni v ChessWorld argument I think one point is that Adelaide Uni chose to increase the level of publicity and consequently should pay extra for it.
Having said that I do think this more like a Volunteer v Commercial Operation debate, and I think that Lee has already overstepped the mark, which is pretty impressive as it is his first go a publicising his new employers. I think there is a clear distiction between people who run chess activities and would like not to lose money (eg tournament organisers), and people who do it to just make money. In the case of the second group I think it is entirely approprate that they pay for their own advertising space, wherever it is located.
As for the "service announcement" cannard, it reminds me of a time when Channel 9 were fined for not running enoungh community service announcements on TV. They tried to claim that ads for a grocery chain were indeed community service ads as they "provided the consumer with extra information to make their purchasing decisions".

WhiteElephant
29-04-2005, 12:54 PM
I see it as an issue of Premium Advertising Space Vs Space-available-to- everyone. If ChessWorld wanted a banner advert they should have to pay too.

It is like when you go to the supermarket, products which are placed on the third shelf at eye-level pay a premium for that placement, as do the impulse-buys at checkouts.

There may be an argument made that non-profit organisations receive a discount, which is up to Karthick. Personally, I see no problem with ChessKit charging for ads when the money goes to developing the site and improved services for members.

arosar
29-04-2005, 01:33 PM
In the case of the second [commercial interests] group I think it is entirely approprate that they pay for their own advertising space, wherever it is located.

Spot on!

It struck me as odd that this so called 'announcement', designed specifically and ultimately for profit, gets away with it for free.

By the way, anyone remember that Peter Parr column on this site? Whatever happened to it? :hmm: :hmm: :whistle:

AR

Ian Rout
29-04-2005, 03:26 PM
Leaving other considerations aside, how is a no-ads policy to be enforced? Blatant cases can be deleted by a moderator but what if somebody says "I hear Lee Forace is organising a chess trip to China" - are people forbidden to respond?

If any mention of products of commercial organisations is banned that means there is no discussion of, among other things, chess books and magazines, databases and other software, and in some years the Australian Open.

Are people really concerned that a product of a commercial operator has been mentioned, which happens all the time, or that it has been posted by that commercial operator, which is not unknown - or is it because of who the commercial operator is? In that case I could understand it.

arosar
29-04-2005, 04:15 PM
Who's calling for a no ads policy? I may not like the location of ads, as well as techniques like pop-ups, because I find them intrusive - but I realise it helps keep my access free. So if the direction is to have them, have them.

The issue isn't that a commercial operator has been mentioned. The issue that caught my attention was that SACA (a volunteer crew?) was charged for ad space while OTOH people like Lee can come in here for free and flog anything they want free of charge. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but that situation seems inequitable. Either charge everyone or no charge at all (ie. organisations/businesses, I mean).

AR

shaun
29-04-2005, 04:19 PM
Leaving other considerations aside, how is a no-ads policy to be enforced? Blatant cases can be deleted by a moderator but what if somebody says "I hear Lee Forace is organising a chess trip to China" - are people forbidden to respond?

I doubt it. In the example above the information is coming from a third party. And I suspect even if Lee posted "I am organising a trip to China for chess coaching, anyone interested contact me" then that would be acceptable. However once it becomes clear that the purpose of the post isn't to inform but to spruik, then I would regard it as crossing the line. Of course different people would place the line in different locations.



If any mention of products of commercial organisations is banned that means there is no discussion of, among other things, chess books and magazines, databases and other software, and in some years the Australian Open.

I think it then becomes a question of judgement. As I said above, if the information could be considered informative then OK. If it could be considered self serving, then no.



Are people really concerned that a product of a commercial operator has been mentioned, which happens all the time, or that it has been posted by that commercial operator, which is not unknown - or is it because of who the commercial operator is? In that case I could understand it.

I think there is something in who is doing the spruiking. If for example Ralph Jackson posted something about organising a tourist trip to the Olympiad and put in exactly the same level of detail as Lee, I don't think anyone would mind (except maybe rival tour operators).
I for one was a) surprised that Lee has taken a position with ChessKids and b) even more surprised that he would spruik it's wares so blantantly on this board. I guess that is what motivated me to comment.

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 12:59 PM
Hello Everyone,


I don't really get the arguements here.

Lee is just informing us about ChessWorld and its product. Whats the big deal?
It is related to chess in some form. It may be of interest to some chess players. Importantly, it would matter little if it had nothing to do with chess.

For example, what if the post was asking for people to go to China, without any chess. Wouldn't this be as relevant to almost any of the posts in the Non-chess section? So what if somebody is making a buck out of it. What does it matter? Its a free bulletin board, and there is no rule against it. If your not interested in the offer don't post there.

It must be remembered that Chesskit is not a democratic institution, nor is it representative of ACF policy. It is a commercial business that seeks to endorse its own ideas of product. Bill and KB have clarified this many times on other threads.

Let SACA speak for themselves, if they believe the banner is good value that is their decision, but nobody is preventing them from posting on the board are they.

Of course it is interesting to note whether Lee's titles are bogus or not. Should they be laughed at with pity? or are they legitimate? They imply status within the chess world, but how can a person be a chief arbiter, if a company like Chessworld have no recognition in the 'Official' chess circles.

I have some questions for you Lee, What do you base your qualifications on? If you answer anything with the ACF, then it becomes an interesting problematic. How do you base this recognition on something that is not connected?

Furthermore, ought you be black balled from ever arbiting another event for the ACF, simply beacause of any potential conflicts in the future? As a parent I wouldn't like it if my child was involved in a controversial arbiting decision with any other ChessWorld child, regardless of whether you thought you were being 'objective' or not.

Remember if your going to make a claim of being an arbiter for a specific commercial company, then implicit in that announcement is an ethical responsibility to any arbiting position you occupy for the ACF.

Cheers Fg7

Thunderspirit
30-04-2005, 01:34 PM
My role as Chess World's Chief Arbiter is not relevant here, but I will still reply. Chess World is helping to run some interschool events soon in Melbourne, and I will be running most of those. My 'title' if you can call it that, is in relation to other arbiters at Chess World.

David compelely supports that I am will be the chief DOP in these events. It is a little regonition from him regarding me against other the DOP's. IM Lenoid Sandler is Chess Kids' head coach and no-one is concerned about him being called so.

I never made any suggestion that my role as Chess World's chief DOP had any influence in the wider chess community. I am an unqualified arbiter. I don't posses the FIDE Arbiter or IA titles, I have never suggested that I was either.

If I apply for DOPing work outside Chess World most if not all major organisers know me and my strengths and weaknesses against Australia's other DOP's. I also do not claim to be as good a DOP as people like Shaun who is also 'untitled'. (Though to be fair, Shuan as 4 IA Norms, and must have 50+ FA norms if he needed them.)

Spiny Norman
30-04-2005, 01:53 PM
Lee, you're right not to worry about the lack of an official title mate. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is whether you do a good job of your assigned task(s).

I'm an IT Manager and I've never been to University and have absolutely no IT qualifications whatsoever despite nearly 20 years in the industry. The only time anyone notices is if I'm applying for a new job. I get around that by tending only to (1) work for people I know who know I'm good at what I do; or (2) work for myself.

When I hire people I pay absolutely no attention whatsoever to titles/degrees/etc. Some of them I have hired have asked me what their title will be (e.g. Analyst Programmer, Senior Blah Blah Blah). Most of the time I tell them "Call yourself whatever you like ... you can be Grand Poobah for all I care ... just don't call me late for Friday drinks!". All I am ever interested in is this:


Who said the person is good ... and who they hell are they?

Lack of an official title didn't seem to stop that bloke Wang Ho from finishing first in the Dubai Open either. Nor did it stop a bunch of people like me becoming administrators, committee members, club presidents, organisers, and so on.

Lucena
30-04-2005, 02:32 PM
As for the "service announcement" cannard, it reminds me of a time when Channel 9 were fined for not running enoungh community service announcements on TV. They tried to claim that ads for a grocery chain were indeed community service ads as they "provided the consumer with extra information to make their purchasing decisions". :lol: That's classic!

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 02:58 PM
My role as Chess World's Chief Arbiter is not relevant here, but I will still reply. Chess World is helping to run some interschool events soon in Melbourne, and I will be running most of those. My 'title' if you can call it that, is in relation to other arbiters at Chess World.

If it wasn't relevant, then why did you use it. After all nobody else mentioned your titles except yourself...remember

Lee Forace 28/4/2005


Chess Kids Retail Manager
Chess World Chief Arbiter




David compelely supports that I am will be the chief DOP in these events. It is a little regonition from him regarding me against other the DOP's. IM Lenoid Sandler is Chess Kids' head coach and no-one is concerned about him being called so.

I think your missing the point of my post. You and ChessWorld can call your job description/recognition whatever they like. Furthermore, Leonid Sandler is a player not an arbiter, the issues I talked about were conflicts in power relationships, not credibility.



If I apply for DOPing work outside Chess World most if not all major organisers know me and my strengths and weaknesses against Australia's other DOP's. I also do not claim to be as good a DOP as people like Shaun who is also 'untitled'. (Though to be fair, Shuan as 4 IA Norms, and must have 50+ FA norms if he needed them.)

Hopefully then you will declare your personal commercial interests in every tournament you ever arbit for the ACF,before the event, so that the ACF will be able to judge whether your particpation fits in with its ethical considerations (does it have any?). Hopefully (i am not holding my breath), the ACF will actually ask players, before they collect entry fees, whether they object to you arbiting this event.

Now please don't get me wrong, I have nothing personal against you. I just realise that when it comes to Victorian or Australian junior titles, that the integrity of an arbiter is everything, as is an ethical declaration of any percieved biases, whether they exist or not.

Cheers Fg7

pax
30-04-2005, 08:26 PM
It's a fuss about nothing.

I'm not aware of any rule against advertising on these boards, and it is entirely up to the discretion of the board owner to decide what level of advertising in messages is acceptable. How many messages were devoted to the Mt Buller events, which were (as far as we know) profitable enterprises?

I would imagine that this sort of thing ought to be entirely acceptable as long as it is occasional. If it turns into weekly spam, then I'm sure it would be banned. As a once in a while thing, who cares?

arosar
02-05-2005, 07:12 PM
How much is that Adelaide Uni banner? Is that really $200?

Oh, can we please have Peter Parr's SMH column back please?

Thanks muchly?

AR

skip to my lou
03-05-2005, 01:36 AM
The issue I raised was around charging a volunteer organisation for ad space while commercial firms can freely make these announcements which are, essentially, ads. I'm not calling for a gag.

AR

I agree that this is basically an advertisement. It's unfair to other advertisers who financially support this site. I'll leave it up to the moderators to decide what to do with this thread.

Duff McKagan
03-05-2005, 08:27 AM
I agree that this is basically an advertisement. It's unfair to other advertisers who financially support this site. I'll leave it up to the moderators to decide what to do with this thread.

Heaps of ppl probably think that it is unfair because it is. If it is really unfair it is unfair because of the difference!! between no fee and $200 p/mth fee. I don't think deleting this thread is particularly fair so the only other option is to give the fee back to the uni. Just a thought. :hmm:

Cheers


PS. will the top banner still for hire after this one expires?

Thunderspirit
04-05-2005, 12:06 PM
I have to apologize for all the fuss I've caused. If moderators want to delete the thread than fine. One reason is that Kartik doesn't seem thrilled about it, and to be honest regardless how good the deal may be I'm will only get negative feedback anyway...

I know for the next time.

Rincewind
04-05-2005, 12:26 PM
I have to apologize for all the fuss I've caused. If moderators want to delete the thread than fine. One reason is that Kartik doesn't seem thrilled about it, and to be honest regardless how good the deal may be I'm will only get negative feedback anyway...

I know for the next time.

Perhaps it will serve as a warning to others. Deleting the thread at this stage probably serves no practical purpose. Good to have the conversation though.

Thunderspirit
04-05-2005, 07:52 PM
I am starting to gather more information on the trip, and moderators need to make a choice if the thread is ok or not. If any moderators believe it is inappropriate than they have 48 hrs to delete it, otherwise I will post more information for people to consider.

This is not intended as a threat just an annoucement. I do not mind if the thread is deleted. I apologize for the fuss, but you 'can't have the cake and eat it.'

Skip- I know you don't usally delete posts, but you don't seem too happy. Feel free to delete it if you wish...

ursogr8
04-05-2005, 08:35 PM
I am starting to gather more information on the trip, and moderators need to make a choice if the thread is ok or not. If any moderators believe it is inappropriate than they have 48 hrs to delete it, otherwise I will post more information for people to consider.

This is not intended as a threat just an annoucement. I do not mind if the thread is deleted. I apologize for the fuss, but you 'can't have the cake and eat it.'

Skip- I know you don't usally delete posts, but you don't seem too happy. Feel free to delete it if you wish...


Lee

Perhaps post on the THREAD
'Looking for transport to ...'.


starter