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firegoat7
04-04-2005, 09:51 AM
Hello everyone,

Speaking of spam, whats the consensus on this propaganda?

Dear Chess Club Secretary,



Over the past 10 years Chess World has been striving to develop chess at the grass-roots level. Last year for the first time we achieved our goal of more than 5000 students participating in a Chess Tournament. We are still working towards our goal of 100,000 chess playing students in Melbourne.



With this tournament goal achieved our next step is to develop these players’ skills and move towards seeing the next Australian IM or GM emerge. Chess clubs around Victoria will play an important role in developing skills by offering a social & competitive environment for these youngsters to hone their skills against players of all ages. Not only that, but having youngsters at a club gives it an active and vibrant feel and promotes further growth in adults (look at the Box Hill Chess club’s junior successes).



To further to goal of getting these young chess-players active within clubs and Open tournaments I present here a great opportunity for your club to become involved. This is an opportunity to showcase your chess club to potential new members and hopefully continue to increase your membership. Please let me explain:



Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one.



Your club would be required to provide:

- Space for 6 coaching groups (max. 8 per group) running simultaneously (10.00am – 12.30pm)

- Space for 48 children to play chess (1.00pm – 5.00pm)

- A club member to supervise the venue requirements

- Promotional material for your club



You might also like to provide:

- Tea/coffee facilities for parents and coaches (free or at a small cost)

- Snacks or morning & afternoon tea for students (free)

- A prize (or prizes) of FREE club membership for one lucky participant

- Anything else that might make the participants feel more welcome and enjoy their day



Chess Kids will provide

- All equipment: sets, boards, scoresheets and clocks

- All coaches (of the highest standard – such as IM Sandler, IM Smerdon, FM Depasquale, FM Saw, Zaprudsky, Bourmistrov, Meerbach etc)

- All supervision of students and administration of the day

- Prizes for participants



The format of the day is as follows:

9.00am – 9.30am Setup

10.00am – 12.30pm Coaching sessions

1.00pm – 5.00pm 4 x 30 minute recorded games



Statistics

During the 2 months of February and March Chess Kids ran 14 one-day events with a total of 839 players from 74 schools across Melbourne.



Approximately 80 invitations were presented to players offering a place in the April 3 Elite Day. We received 53 responses, with 44 attending on Sunday April 3; most traveling for at least 30 minutes to get to the program venue.



In the next 3 months we are planning to run about 35 one-day events and expect over 2000 players. This gives us the realistic expectation to run 2 Elite days with about 50 players attending each.



When does this happen?

We have 6 more training days scheduled this year and would be happy to book a club in for a maximum of 2 days. First in best dressed. You may choose a Saturday OR Sunday (not both) of the following dates:

May 7 or 8

June 18 or 19

August 6 or 7

September 17 or 18

October 29 or 30

December 9 or 10



Ideally we would have each club host just one day, but we are open to suggestions.



If your club has any questions, suggestions or interest in hosting, please contact me by phone or email ASAP to discuss the finer details and confirm a suitable date.



Many thanks and looking helping your club grow over the next few years,






David Cordover

Chess Kids




My question is "Would you read this marketing as a positive or a negative for Victorian Chess?"

My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

Cheers Fg7

ursogr8
04-04-2005, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone,

Speaking of spam, whats the consensus on this propaganda?

Dear Chess Club Secretary,



Over the past 10 years Chess World <snip>


My question is "Would you read this marketing as a positive or a negative for Victorian Chess?"

My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

Cheers Fg7

fg7

Personally, I have some problems with this marketing.
I have referred (yesterday) the mail to our BH President, and would prefer to wait on a Committee discussion before becoming to visible myself.
Those of us who have to ration volunteer labour need to be careful that it is used correctly.

starter

Oepty
04-04-2005, 01:50 PM
If I was making a decision I would like to see evidence that host such a day like Cordover suggests does mean more people joined the club. This is especially since he says in the letter that most of the juniors had to travel at least 30 mins to get to the venue used on April 3rd. It seems that it is unlikely that most juniors would regularly travel more than 30mins to be a regular attendee at a chess club.

I would also like to see evidence that having more juniors at a club causes an increase in adult participation.

Scott

Garvinator
04-04-2005, 02:12 PM
ok here is where we run into trouble. The last posters on here put scorn on David's claims were then subjected to legal intimidation and threats.

Do we really want to go down that road, especially considering that the guru has shown that legal threats is his first port of call.

pballard
04-04-2005, 03:09 PM
Hello everyone,

Speaking of spam, whats the consensus on this propaganda?


(huge snip).

How did it get sent to you? email? private messaging on this board? or some other way?...

And why is it a concern... Has there been spam discussion here in the past? Does Australia have anti-spam laws? (Feel free direct me to an old thread I might have missed).

--
Peter

shaun
04-04-2005, 03:16 PM
My question is "Would you read this marketing as a positive or a negative for Victorian Chess?"

My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

Cheers Fg7

My coverall (and honest) answer would be:
If I liked the guy:"Just what Victorian chess needs, and anyone who says different obviously doesn't want chess to succeed in this state"
If I didn't like the guy, and had to deal with him or the effects of his actions:"More inflated and unsubstantiated hype designed to sabotage the efforts of others in this state"
If I didn't like the guy but our paths don't cross:"Sort it out amongst yourselves"

arosar
04-04-2005, 03:17 PM
Does Australia have anti-spam laws?

Yes, absobloodylutely. But, of course, whether the message being talked about is spam or not is a different matter altogether.

AR

Ian Rout
04-04-2005, 03:55 PM
Personally I wouldn't consider it spam, but the question that came to mind is that the note seems to assume that clubs have permanent premises. Is that how it typically is in Melbourne (other than MCC which obviously does)?

DoroPhil
04-04-2005, 04:14 PM
Dave,

It's clear that Mr. Cordover is not exactly your (or MCC's) best friend. Could you tell us why?

ursogr8
04-04-2005, 05:37 PM
Yes, absobloodylutely. But, of course, whether the message being talked about is spam or not is a different matter altogether.

AR

My copy came via an e-mail address I have given CG some time back. Whether it was welcome was nicely summed up by Shaun.
I don't have a problem with receipt of the message.



Personally I wouldn't consider it spam, but the question that came to mind is that the note seems to assume that clubs have permanent premises. Is that how it typically is in Melbourne (other than MCC which obviously does)?

Ian,
The thought did not strike me when I read it...and not sure where you see it.
All Melbourne Clubs rent space/rooms/buildings for the weekly events (except MCC which owns their building). It is a significant cost. We rent ours for about 48 weeks of the year (two evenings per week, and 1 Sunday per month, and 3 week-ends per year).
For special events we would do a deal with a local Council or a local school etc.
Gazza gets occasional access to a premier area in the Federation Square complex.
Sometimes a Town Hall is hired.


starter

firegoat7
04-04-2005, 06:13 PM
If I liked the guy:"Just what Victorian chess needs, and anyone who says different obviously doesn't want chess to succeed in this state"
If I didn't like the guy, and had to deal with him or the effects of his actions:"More inflated and unsubstantiated hype designed to sabotage the efforts of others in this state"
If I didn't like the guy but our paths don't cross:"Sort it out amongst yourselves"

Well I suppose I should offer some feedback.

To this one I say its not personal, its political. I have enough experience of working with people I don't like for a common good.




It's clear that Mr. Cordover is not exactly your (or MCC's) best friend. Could you tell us why?

I have my own personal reasons for not liking Cordover. If we meet in person I could discuss them privately with you Dorophil. As for MCC, Cordover did run a junior program there unsuccessfully, but that is not such a big deal. It is generally more to do with ChessVictoria, Jammo, Depasquale and clear conflicts of interests, its about political agendas.


Personally I wouldn't consider it spam, but the question that came to mind is that the note seems to assume that clubs have permanent premises. Is that how it typically is in Melbourne (other than MCC which obviously does)?

Well I never provided Cordover with my email address, nor do I subscribe to any of his services. I guess he either got it of the web, tournament flyers or from ChessVictoria. It is unsolicited business that is clear, what is not clear is whether its annoying.

I do agree with your permanent premises analysis, but in fairness its probably designed for activity which must nbe a good thing.




How did it get sent to you? email?

He sent it to my email address. I have no problem with this personally,as I am a MCC contact, except I will point out that Cordover would not even consider the ethics involved. Last year he sent a lot of interschool flyers to schools who thought they were playing in interschool, they did, just it was not Victorian interschool. It was Chessworld interschool, by the way he was on the ChessVictoria executive committee at the same time and ChessVictoria still continue to publish his commercial business as if it was a registered club, which it isn't.


Cheers Fg7

firegoat7
04-04-2005, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=firegoat7]

Now for my debunk, I will put my responses in bold text

"Dear Chess Club Secretary" - I have a name,you know what it is, if you wish to send a mass email to me, advertising your business interests, without addressing me personally then you are spamming me.

"Over the past 10 years Chess World has been striving to develop chess at the grass-roots level. Last year for the first time we achieved our goal of more than 5000 students participating in a Chess Tournament. We are still working towards our goal of 100,000 chess playing students in Melbourne."

It depends on your definition of chess. While it may be true that 5000 students participated in a chess tournament, it is also true that DC was a ChessVictoria executive, his interschool conflicted with ChessVictorias interschool. The only striving I see is a business one, not that this is bad necessarily.


"With this tournament goal achieved our next step is to develop these players’ skills and move towards seeing the next Australian IM or GM emerge. Chess clubs around Victoria will play an important role in developing skills by offering a social & competitive environment for these youngsters to hone their skills against players of all ages. Not only that, but having youngsters at a club gives it an active and vibrant feel and promotes further growth in adults (look at the Box Hill Chess club’s junior successes)."

This seems nice but really is nothing more then fantasy. It is a real enough fantasy but its is debatable wheteher DCs fantasy and Australian chess' fantasy are the same thing. Ask yourself this question-If he was really concerned about getting kids to play in Victorian chess clubs, why has he not attempted to get club feedback on how this should be intergrated in a mutually beneficial way? What do chess clubs operate on, thin air or money? Nor should we ever forget that he never affiliated his own club with ChessVictoria.

"To further to goal of getting these young chess-players active within clubs and Open tournaments I present here a great opportunity for your club to become involved. This is an opportunity to showcase your chess club to potential new members and hopefully continue to increase your membership. Please let me explain:"

Marketing hype based on Chinese numbers, it has a name this sort of agenda. It is called "Casino" capitalism, it is a new neo-liberal economic philosophy.



"Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one."

Why don't you just send them to our club, its open, they will learn all about tournament chess there. If you don't like our club send them to Elwood, Box Hill, Croydon. Next comes the reality



"Your club would be required to provide:

- Space for 6 coaching groups (max. 8 per group) running simultaneously (10.00am – 12.30pm)

- Space for 48 children to play chess (1.00pm – 5.00pm)

- A club member to supervise the venue requirements

- Promotional material for your club



You might also like to provide:

- Tea/coffee facilities for parents and coaches (free or at a small cost)

- Snacks or morning & afternoon tea for students (free)

- A prize (or prizes) of FREE club membership for one lucky participant

- Anything else that might make the participants feel more welcome and enjoy their day"

Free power, Voluneteers to open and close the facilities, expenses including wear and tear, toilet amenities etc


"Chess Kids will provide

- All equipment: sets, boards, scoresheets and clocks

- All coaches (of the highest standard – such as IM Sandler, IM Smerdon, FM Depasquale, FM Saw, Zaprudsky, Bourmistrov, Meerbach etc)

- All supervision of students and administration of the day

- Prizes for participants"

1.Something we don't need ie equipment.
2. Labour
3. Supervision
4. Prizes

Interesting no money is mentioned, clubs will be the altruistic provider for chess in australia. But let me guess, Chesskid/world/thing is going to do all this for free, just like the clubs eh?



The format of the day is as follows:

9.00am – 9.30am Setup

10.00am – 12.30pm Coaching sessions

1.00pm – 5.00pm 4 x 30 minute recorded games



Statistics

During the 2 months of February and March Chess Kids ran 14 one-day events with a total of 839 players from 74 schools across Melbourne.



Approximately 80 invitations were presented to players offering a place in the April 3 Elite Day. We received 53 responses, with 44 attending on Sunday April 3; most traveling for at least 30 minutes to get to the program venue.



In the next 3 months we are planning to run about 35 one-day events and expect over 2000 players. This gives us the realistic expectation to run 2 Elite days with about 50 players attending each.



When does this happen?

We have 6 more training days scheduled this year and would be happy to book a club in for a maximum of 2 days. First in best dressed. You may choose a Saturday OR Sunday (not both) of the following dates:

May 7 or 8

June 18 or 19

August 6 or 7

September 17 or 18

October 29 or 30

December 9 or 10


Many thanks and looking helping your club grow over the next few years,"

What a strategy, where do I sign up?

"David Cordover

Chess Kids"

He has a name but I don't,neither does MCC, beautiful ain't it.

ursogr8
04-04-2005, 08:29 PM
[QUOTE=firegoat7]

Now for my debunk, I will put my responses in bold text

"Dear Chess Club Secretary" - I have a name,you know what it is, if you wish to send a mass email to me, advertising your business interests, without addressing me personally then you are spamming me.

"Over the past 10 years Chess World has been striving to develop chess at the grass-roots level. Last year for the first time we achieved our goal of more than 5000 students participating in a Chess Tournament. We are still working towards our goal of 100,000 chess playing students in Melbourne."

It depends on your definition of chess. While it may be true that 5000 students participated in a chess tournament, it is also true that DC was a ChessVictoria executive, his interschool conflicted with ChessVictorias interschool. The only striving I see is a business one, not that this is bad necessarily.


"With this tournament goal achieved our next step is to develop these players’ skills and move towards seeing the next Australian IM or GM emerge. Chess clubs around Victoria will play an important role in developing skills by offering a social & competitive environment for these youngsters to hone their skills against players of all ages. Not only that, but having youngsters at a club gives it an active and vibrant feel and promotes further growth in adults (look at the Box Hill Chess club’s junior successes)."

This seems nice but really is nothing more then fantasy. It is a real enough fantasy but its is debatable wheteher DCs fantasy and Australian chess' fantasy are the same thing. Ask yourself this question-If he was really concerned about getting kids to play in Victorian chess clubs, why has he not attempted to get club feedback on how this should be intergrated in a mutually beneficial way? What do chess clubs operate on, thin air or money? Nor should we ever forget that he never affiliated his own club with ChessVictoria.

"To further to goal of getting these young chess-players active within clubs and Open tournaments I present here a great opportunity for your club to become involved. This is an opportunity to showcase your chess club to potential new members and hopefully continue to increase your membership. Please let me explain:"

Marketing hype based on Chinese numbers, it has a name this sort of agenda. It is called "Casino" capitalism, it is a new neo-liberal economic philosophy.



"Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one."

Why don't you just send them to our club, its open, they will learn all about tournament chess there. If you don't like our club send them to Elwood, Box Hill, Croydon. Next comes the reality



"Your club would be required to provide:

- Space for 6 coaching groups (max. 8 per group) running simultaneously (10.00am – 12.30pm)

- Space for 48 children to play chess (1.00pm – 5.00pm)

- A club member to supervise the venue requirements

- Promotional material for your club



You might also like to provide:

- Tea/coffee facilities for parents and coaches (free or at a small cost)

- Snacks or morning & afternoon tea for students (free)

- A prize (or prizes) of FREE club membership for one lucky participant

- Anything else that might make the participants feel more welcome and enjoy their day"

Free power, Voluneteers to open and close the facilities, expenses including wear and tear, toilet amenities etc


"Chess Kids will provide

- All equipment: sets, boards, scoresheets and clocks

- All coaches (of the highest standard – such as IM Sandler, IM Smerdon, FM Depasquale, FM Saw, Zaprudsky, Bourmistrov, Meerbach etc)

- All supervision of students and administration of the day

- Prizes for participants"

1.Something we don't need ie equipment.
2. Labour
3. Supervision
4. Prizes

Interesting no money is mentioned, clubs will be the altruistic provider for chess in australia. But let me guess, Chesskid/world/thing is going to do all this for free, just like the clubs eh?



The format of the day is as follows:

9.00am – 9.30am Setup

10.00am – 12.30pm Coaching sessions

1.00pm – 5.00pm 4 x 30 minute recorded games



Statistics

During the 2 months of February and March Chess Kids ran 14 one-day events with a total of 839 players from 74 schools across Melbourne.



Approximately 80 invitations were presented to players offering a place in the April 3 Elite Day. We received 53 responses, with 44 attending on Sunday April 3; most traveling for at least 30 minutes to get to the program venue.



In the next 3 months we are planning to run about 35 one-day events and expect over 2000 players. This gives us the realistic expectation to run 2 Elite days with about 50 players attending each.



When does this happen?

We have 6 more training days scheduled this year and would be happy to book a club in for a maximum of 2 days. First in best dressed. You may choose a Saturday OR Sunday (not both) of the following dates:

May 7 or 8

June 18 or 19

August 6 or 7

September 17 or 18

October 29 or 30

December 9 or 10


Many thanks and looking helping your club grow over the next few years,"

What a strategy, where do I sign up?

"David Cordover

Chess Kids"

He has a name but I don't,neither does MCC, beautiful ain't it.
hi fg7

Some of your post is good (in my view), and some not so good (or at least I would handle differently).
In no particular order


criticising his style of writing is of no real significance; so let's ignore the lack of salutations.
Club feedback would be guarded at best given the past trials and tribulations in Mexico and Mt B. ......Probably it just best for him to make the offer he has made.
I think there is a significant point to be made in achieving 'introductions to a Club. Have you ever tried to work through the Victorian Govt schools register and just send a simple e-mail to selected schools. It is a brick wall of hurdles in the way. On the other hand, if the school registrar gives you a contact address, or a list of interested names then the 'contact list' is a valuable commodity.
Finally, you hit on the central argument...are the volunteers to paid.....but you shy away from the obvious retort >>> Sure CG, happy to host...our fee is $400 per day payable to the Club.


regards, and keep posting, somewhere ;)
starter

Kevin Bonham
04-04-2005, 10:41 PM
Hello everyone,

Speaking of spam,

Are we?

I accept that by making my details available as a chess club secretary I'll get a fair few offers sent to me. It's just an occupational hazard. If they are tournaments for grandmasters in Greece then I may get a little irate at the spammer for not pitching their product more judiciously, but offers like this are par for the course and I don't see why their mass propogation makes them "spam". Just note it as "correspondence" at your next meeting.


whats the consensus on this propaganda?

What makes you think there will be a consensus?


My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

I don't see any ACF implications whatsoever.

The terms offered by ChessKids may seem lopsided - basically he is asking for free venues and offering in return the prospect of recruitment. However, he's a businessman, ambit claim offers are common in business and I don't see where in his offer it says that he is not amenable to negotiation.

It is indeed "political", but what about the chess? I think you're letting your personal opposition to anything you consider to be "capitalism" (as stated on this thread) get in the way of a more rational appraisal of something that seems really quite mundane compared to past ChessKids controversies here.

ursogr8
04-04-2005, 10:52 PM
<snip>

I don't see any ACF implications whatsoever.

<snip>



hi KB
Just snipped around your long response to fg7; hope you do not mind.

No implications for the ACF?

But don't you (the ACF) levy a charge per participant, or per team, or some_such?
Who you gunna levy it on? The hosting Club? Or CG's organisation.

I am aware that there has been much discussion in VIC at which level of the hierarchies does the ACF charge kick in. The GURU seems to have offered a framework that insulates him from the charge; at least at the lowest levels.

starter

Bill Gletsos
04-04-2005, 11:41 PM
hi KB
Just snipped around your long response to fg7; hope you do not mind.

No implications for the ACF?

But don't you (the ACF) levy a charge per participant, or per team, or some_such?
Who you gunna levy it on? The hosting Club? Or CG's organisation.
It has no bearing.
CG states "Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one."

His Elite Traing day is not part of the interschools event hence it is not subject to any ACF Schools Levy Fee.
The only possible fee would be if he ran a tournament on the day and submitted it for rating. Now the ACF only recognises the State Association as being responsible for the payment of the ACF Admin Fee but if he submits it to the CV rating officer then surely CV would deem him responsible for its payment since he is the organiser.


I am aware that there has been much discussion in VIC at which level of the hierarchies does the ACF charge kick in. The GURU seems to have offered a framework that insulates him from the charge; at least at the lowest levels.I dont see how he is insulated from the ACF admin fee if organises an event that is submitted for rating.

Libby
05-04-2005, 07:22 AM
It has no bearing.

I dont see how he is insulated from the ACF admin fee if organises an event that is submitted for rating.

On the Schools Comp fees however (the fee per team we pay for all teams in our Schools events) does he pay that fee? I thought I read somewhere that the fee was charged per team for those competitions that lead to qualification for the Aus Schools events? If that's correct, he pays no fee for his teams in the original events unless he runs the "official" Victorian qualification events.

Would seem a strong position for the "official" chess body in Victoria to market their event from?

I certainly get the odd bit of chess-related spam. If I was a Vic Club I'd be happy to look at DCs proposal and if I saw a benefit to my Club, take him up on it. That's really where it ends isn't it - with the benefit to your Club? If it isn't there, don't worry about it.

Just make sure you are providing good opportunities for junior participation & development yourselves ... if that's what you see a need for.

ursogr8
05-04-2005, 09:24 AM
It has no bearing.
CG states "Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one."

His Elite Traing day is not part of the interschools event hence it is not subject to any ACF Schools Levy Fee.
The only possible fee would be if he ran a tournament on the day and submitted it for rating. Now the ACF only recognises the State Association as being responsible for the payment of the ACF Admin Fee but if he submits it to the CV rating officer then surely CV would deem him responsible for its payment since he is the organiser.

I dont see how he is insulated from the ACF admin fee if organises an event that is submitted for rating.

Bill

I had in mind the Schools Comp fee, not rating fees. I don't think these games have ever been submitted for rating before; not sure why you brought that fee into it.

regards
starter

Bill Gletsos
05-04-2005, 12:24 PM
On the Schools Comp fees however (the fee per team we pay for all teams in our Schools events) does he pay that fee? I thought I read somewhere that the fee was charged per team for those competitions that lead to qualification for the Aus Schools events? If that's correct, he pays no fee for his teams in the original events unless he runs the "official" Victorian qualification events.It is my understanding that instead of running the schools events in the traditional 4 player teams CG runs his schools events as giant swisses where groups of 4 kids from the same school are considered part of a team.
I also understand that CV is going to allow teams from CG's schools events to compete in some sort of finals against teams from the CV run schools comp with the winners qualifing for the Aus Schools.
Therefore whilst maintaining the current method of calculation of the Schools Levy, at the instigation of GW the ACF introduced an additional means by which to calculate the Schools Levy where the teams are as defined as in CG's "school teams" events.

Bill Gletsos
05-04-2005, 12:27 PM
Bill

I had in mind the Schools Comp fee, not rating fees. I don't think these games have ever been submitted for rating before; not sure why you brought that fee into it.It wasnt clear you knew what you were talking about with reagrds the Schools Levy since his "Elite Training Day" events seemed to have no bearing on his Schools comp. As such I thought it better to be all encompassing in my response with reagrds any ACF fees.

arosar
05-04-2005, 05:10 PM
Bill,

I posed a question to you in the NSW Prez thread. Please direct your attention to that immediately as I, your subject, am in need of an answer.

AR

Rincewind
05-04-2005, 05:20 PM
I posed a question to you in the NSW Prez thread. Please direct your attention to that immediately as I, your subject, am in need of an answer.

Good one AR. This might be the first case I witnessed of an an appeal to oblige noblesse on this board. :clap:

Recherché
05-04-2005, 05:31 PM
Good one AR. This might be the first case I witnessed of an an appeal to oblige noblesse on this board. :clap:

Doesn't that go the other way around? :)

Spiny Norman
05-04-2005, 05:58 PM
... whats the consensus on this propaganda?

I was also a recipient. I'm happy to consider it on its merits. As for whether it is spam, I probably don't agree that it could be categorised as such. For me anyway, spam is something that bears no real relevance to the recipient. This appears to be a targeted email to chess administrators, even though it is not "mail-merged" with my name in the body of the message. So it was relevant to me (the recipient) regardless of whether I feel like its an offer I want to pursue. Other people's definition of spam may vary (i.e. Unsolicited Commercial Email).

Libby
05-04-2005, 07:12 PM
I also understand that CV is going to allow teams from CG's schools events to compete in some sort of finals against teams from the CV run schools comp with the winners qualifing for the Aus Schools.
Therefore whilst maintaining the current method of calculation of the Schools Levy, at the instigation of GW the ACF introduced an additional means by which to calculate the Schools Levy where the teams are as defined as in CG's "school teams" events.

So at what stage does the levy kick in?

For example, we run Zone events and then a Final. We pay the levy for every school team in every zone, not just those in the Final - from which they qualify (or even better, the Playoff of no more than 4 teams!)

So do DC's events attract a levy themselves (ie a fee for every group of 4 players in the overall total), or does the levy just kick in at the level where the top teams play in the CV events?

I'm not trying to stir, just looking for clarification. This year we have 4 secondary schools contesting a long time control playoff in June. One of those teams will (99%) be our Secondary School rep. We have our Secondary School Championship in Term 3, at short time controls and as a mass participation event (the 4 team event is by nomination and limited to the top 4 rated teams to nominate). As a safeguard, should the Final winners in Term 3 have been excluded from the 4-team playoff, they will be able to challenge the playoff winners but this is (historically) unlikely to happen.

Could we pay a levy for just 4 teams? Is there a financial advantage in separating out your competitions?

Bill Gletsos
05-04-2005, 07:49 PM
So at what stage does the levy kick in?

For example, we run Zone events and then a Final. We pay the levy for every school team in every zone, not just those in the Final - from which they qualify (or even better, the Playoff of no more than 4 teams!)Yes thats how the standard levy works.

So do DC's events attract a levy themselves (ie a fee for every group of 4 players in the overall total), or does the levy just kick in at the level where the top teams play in the CV events?My understanding is that the fee kicks in for all his schools events, not just when the top teams compete against CV teams.

I'm not trying to stir, just looking for clarification. This year we have 4 secondary schools contesting a long time control playoff in June. One of those teams will (99%) be our Secondary School rep. We have our Secondary School Championship in Term 3, at short time controls and as a mass participation event (the 4 team event is by nomination and limited to the top 4 rated teams to nominate). As a safeguard, should the Final winners in Term 3 have been excluded from the 4-team playoff, they will be able to challenge the playoff winners but this is (historically) unlikely to happen.

Could we pay a levy for just 4 teams? Is there a financial advantage in separating out your competitions?My understanding is that if a team has the possibility of qualifying for the Aus Finals by its sheer participation in the states schools teams event then that state must pay the levy for that team.

I'm sure Denis or Kevin will correct me if I have that wrong in some way. ;)

Libby
05-04-2005, 08:08 PM
My understanding is that the fee kicks in for all his schools events, not just when the top teams compete against CV teams.

I'm sure Denis or Kevin will correct me if I have that wrong in some way. ;)

That's OK. I wasn't looking for any wriggle room - just wondering if someone else had found some!

Garvinator
05-04-2005, 08:17 PM
what happens if the levy isnt paid?

Kevin Bonham
05-04-2005, 08:22 PM
I'm sure Denis or Kevin will correct me if I have that wrong in some way. ;)

What you say is also my understanding.

Incidentally I am becoming less and less enchanted with the schools levy system as we see its practical impacts. It seems only to offer a competitive advantage to operators running pirate schools tournaments and a disincentive to them to have their events accepted as official events and to co-operate with state associations.

I don't know this for a fact but I suspect David would have agreed to the terms required to count his ChessKids events in Tassie (which are going very well) as official TCA events if not for the barrier of the schools levy. May talk to him about this soon.

Kaitlin
05-04-2005, 08:29 PM
I dont think we had chess at my school..if we did only the seniors got to do it ~ but i reckon there should be like everyone in the schools should play and the prize should be you get to go somewhere and for a wholeweekend and play someone from another school..... until you lose :)... and if your really really good you like get to play someone form like a big place club. That would be kewl plus you get to go to other towns and stay weekends :)...

Libby
05-04-2005, 09:47 PM
What you say is also my understanding.

Incidentally I am becoming less and less enchanted with the schools levy system as we see its practical impacts. It seems only to offer a competitive advantage to operators running pirate schools tournaments and a disincentive to them to have their events accepted as official events and to co-operate with state associations.

I don't know this for a fact but I suspect David would have agreed to the terms required to count his ChessKids events in Tassie (which are going very well) as official TCA events if not for the barrier of the schools levy. May talk to him about this soon.

I guess that was what I was highlighting.

I certainly see the opportunity to qualify for Aus Schools as a tool State Associations can use effectively to promote the benefits of their competition over a private competitor. ACTJCL also runs events at (I understand) a significantly lower cost than these private events and we still make significant profits (even whilst paying our levy ;) and giving every child a ribbon).

But where there is no effective State-run event, I guess a business can set their own rules.

Tennis is a sport with loads of private coaches and private businesses existing alongside state and national associations. We don't have to be either/or but you qualify for Schools Tennis representation through tennis under the umbrella of the PSSA & SSSA (Primary & Secondary School Sports Association) not through privately run competitions.

And GG, if we didn't pay the levy (when we actually get invoiced for it) I guess the ACF could get nasty and suspend us from the competition or such? As "ACTJCL Inc" (like Mt Buller Inc :wall: ) there are rules about the way in which we conduct ourselves and certainly an operational requirement that we act in a good faith to meet both our financial obligations and our charter to our membership. Business has a different bottom line of course (could make another unfortunate reference there :hmm: ).

firegoat7
05-04-2005, 09:59 PM
Dear Bon Bon and Libby,

You are comparing chalk and cheese. State structures are different in Victoria, Canberra and Tasmania.

There is no levy on Chesskids, it is a privately run competition. Any levy that does kick in is in the playoff section, for a spot organised politically by DC and accepted by others.

Now I ask you both to consider this question. Is this fair?

The ChessVictoria schools have to pay a levy of some description at all levels.
Why should they have to compete against a bunch of freeloaders in a play off, for a service that ChessVictoria and the ACF run?

Cheers Fg7

Bill Gletsos
05-04-2005, 11:27 PM
Dear Bon Bon and Libby,

You are comparing chalk and cheese. State structures are different in Victoria, Canberra and Tasmania.

There is no levy on Chesskids, it is a privately run competition. Any levy that does kick in is in the playoff section, for a spot organised politically by DC and accepted by others.
Do you know that as an actual fact or is it just supposition on your part.

If however what you say is true, I will certainly be asking questions at the next ACF Council meeting as GW made it clear that the change to the Schools Levy rules was so that any privately run event that allowed the possibility of a team eventually participating in the Aus Schools event had to pay the levy. As such the levy did not only just apply to local state qualifying finals.

Now I ask you both to consider this question. Is this fair?Not if what you are saying is correct.


The ChessVictoria schools have to pay a levy of some description at all levels.
Why should they have to compete against a bunch of freeloaders in a play off, for a service that ChessVictoria and the ACF run?If what you say is correct that is a question I too would be asking CV.

ursogr8
06-04-2005, 08:06 AM
Do you know that as an actual fact or is it just supposition on your part.

If however what you say is true, I will certainly be asking questions at the next ACF Council meeting as GW made it clear that the change to the Schools Levy rules was so that any privately run event that allowed the possibility of a team eventually participating in the Aus Schools event had to pay the levy. As such the levy did not only just apply to local state qualifying finals.
Not if what you are saying is correct.

If what you say is correct that is a question I too would be asking CV.

I guess this means Bill (and if I remember correctly, KB) that the issue has gone from no impact on the ACF...to, possibly no impact?

I suspect that much of the eccentricity of the evolving Mexican structure is due to at least one of the negotiating parties wanting to have an impact, downwards, on the fee catchment.

starter

Kevin Bonham
07-04-2005, 07:23 PM
Sorry, was firegoat talking to someone? I don't recall my name being mentioned in his questions. :whistle:

ursogr8
07-04-2005, 08:33 PM
Sorry, was firegoat talking to someone? I don't recall my name being mentioned in his questions. :whistle:

KB

I had in mind your post >

<snip>
I don't see any ACF implications whatsoever.
<snip>.

starter

Kevin Bonham
08-04-2005, 12:39 AM
starter - firegoat's post #32 refers to Libby and to someone I have never heard of. Perhaps one of firegoat's imaginary friends?

The point I am making is that firegoat should be addressing me respectfully if he wishes to receive a reply or "engagement in discussion", instead of engaging in the same style of thread-trashing he accuses me of. It's time for him to graduate from the sandbox and drop this "Bon Bon" rubbish and other pointless (and I might add, ineffectual :lol: ) misnomers once and for all.

firegoat7
10-04-2005, 01:22 PM
The point I am making is that firegoat should be addressing me respectfully if he wishes to receive a reply or "engagement in discussion", instead of engaging in the same style of thread-trashing he accuses me of.

Amazing hypocrisy- moderators set the standards, you should lead with example.

Cheers Fg7

Kevin Bonham
10-04-2005, 07:17 PM
Amazing hypocrisy- moderators set the standards, you should lead with example.

Try considering the conditional in my statement and you may see the error of your ways.